My view on SoloQ vs SWF, MM and Killer interaction
This will always be a huge topic regardless of the game's state that involves alot more than the common player realises and i want to share my view on this.
My first argument is Survivor gameplay is based on team play, doesn't matter if it's 4 of you on 1 gen or if there's only 1 person on each gen, that's gonna be team work regardless since you are all working towards the same objective, you're all benefitting from each others work and you are all affected by each others screw ups aswell. This is intended and it's how it works in reality aswell, somone screwing up in their job means they or someone else has to come and fix or help fix the issue. In this sense i can't fault the game at all except in 1 scenario:
- When someone is not contributing to the team's progress. Hidding and doing nothing has no penalty, you can hide and not help team mates, you can hide from the killer the entire time. This is 0 gameplay, it's frustrating for your team mates and in killers endgame. This type of play should not be rewarded with a potential hatch escape. I think everyone else will be frustrated if that's the outcome.
My second argument is that by default the game is considered balanced when there's a 2 kill and 2 escape ratio wich means in every match at least 50% of Survivors are expected to die so it then becomes a roulette on who those 2 Survivors are. In SoloQ experience this is mostly determined by individual experience, aka skill (wich will be my third argument), and how that affects the whole match for everyone and since this is a 4v1 game the actions of the 4 assume a much higher relevance, the pratical example is someone using a strong pallet early in the match, it might have helped that Survivor but then it's one less resource for everyone else but the trade off is that Survivor is still giving everyone else time because he was being chased, so this player despite using an important resource still gave the team time to accomplish something, how much time becomes the question but to my argument the amount of time is irrelevant, the Survivor is helping the team by staying alive. This scenario becomes different in an SWF because the use of that resource can be communicated to the rest of the team. This is SWF's main strength, the ability to have information and play according to that information. It isn't limited to the usage of resources it's available on everything, Gen and Totem placements, Gen progression, who the killer is, killer location, Killer perks by experience in chase, etc.
So moving on to the third argument how does individual Skill affect SoloQ and SWF? In SoloQ you're relying more on your skill since you may not have a way to give everyone else information, so your performance in chases and outside chases is more important, lasting longer in chases provides your team with Time to complete the objective and it's up to them to use that time, all you can do is last as long as possible and hope your team does the objective. When you are outside chases then just focus on the objective. Your focus will only have to change if you're required to unhook someone, then you have to know where they are hooked, is anybody else closer, is your progress on the objective meaningful enough to wait making the rescue or is the rescue more important, these are all things you have to consider and they are all things that will improve with experience and better understanding of the game. In SWF scenario your overall skill is less important since the communication aspect will quickly allow the team to rethink their aproach for the most optimal result. So SWF's can be more effective than any singular Skilled SoloQ but what happens if there's more than 1 skilled SoloQ Survivor? Then you have 2 people who individually can understand the game without requiring direct communication so there's at least 1 person who will constantly progress the objective while the other is being chased, this is already working as if they were SWF. If there's 3 Skilled SoloQ's then the results are even better and if there's 4 skilled SoloQ's then SWF is no longer required since individually they all understand what they have to do in every moment. So from this i conclude that SoloQ player can match and surpass an SWF since their understanding of the game eliminates the need for SWF. Scott Jund said, and i fully agree, that he fears 4 good SoloQ survivors over an SWF and this makes all sense. 4 Skilled SoloQ's have no need for SWF. SWF only works when the skill level isn't very high and when the skill level is high then being an SWF is meaningless since each player knows what to do. There might be 1 good SoloQ player in an SWF and the rest are average or below average but because they are in an SWF their lack of skill is compensated with the team being able to readjust quickly.
The fourth argument is that the average skill level of survivors is low wich is why SWF's are popular and why SoloQ survivors experience trouble. This makes all the sense, we've already covered how skill in SWF isn't such a huge necessity and how it is a huge necessity in SoloQ so it's logical that with a lower average skill level SoloQ's are having issues but the problem isn't that you're SoloQ or the matchmaking, the problem is the average skill level being low but this isn't a factor we can control, it comes down to players learning curve, play time, available content to make builds, etc. MMR will not solve this, it will only benefit the already Skilled SoloQ by matching all the skilled SoloQ together and the average SoloQ will still suffer by being matched with all the other average SoloQ's so the average SoloQ wich is will be the majority of players will still complain that SoloQ isn't strong enough. This creates Survivor Entitlement, where everything and anything is used to excuse why SoloQ experience is tailor made for them to win. It's only average and bad survivors who cry for SoloQ buffs.
So let's talk Killer now, how does all of this affect the killer? The individual Skill of Survivors affects killer alot, how a Survivor loops dictates how the chase goes. If both players are low skilled then the chase favors the killer since survivor is more likely to make mistakes, if they are both average skill then it depends on who makes the biggest mistake, if they are both good players then the Survivor has the advantage, he understands how to loop and waste killers time and that benefits the whole team. Good Survivors will always have the advantage over good Killers, it's a 4v1, the Killer mistake is to focus on 1v1 when that 1 is just as good or better than the Killer. In regards to SWF, it massively affects Killer since low skill is excused and overwritten by the SWF's ability to quickly adjust. So 4 low skilled Survivors in an SWF still have an advantage over low and average killers. Average skilled SWF will give even most good killers a tough match and a high skilled SWF will give even the best of killers a tough time. Skilled SoloQ and Skilled SWF dominate over Killer, no doubts.
So how does the game balance SoloQ and SWF vs Killer? Well it can't balance SWF so it's only SoloQ vs Killer, and how does it do that? By mixing Survivors skill level, this is the only way. We've already seen why you can't have 4 Skilled SoloQ's together, they are just too strong for any killer, any singular Skilled SoloQ is already as strong or stronger than a skilled Killer player.The game has to mix Survivor skill levels otherwise matches will end in less than 5 minutes because the killer can't handle 4 skilled SoloQ or 3 and even 2 is already problematic for Killers.
Logically the most balanced match has to be 1 skilled SoloQ, 1 average SoloQ and 2 low skill SoloQ's vs 1 Average or Good killer. You can only make Survivors better if the killer is better aswell. If the killer is very Skilled then move up those 2 low skill SoloQ's to average SoloQ's and it becomes a more balanced match, the 1 skilled SoloQ now has 3 people who have game sense to do something.
We can't buff SoloQ because low and average skilled Survivors cry and the result is you're still making SWF better by making every single individual better, we can't "fix" matchmaking either because the matchmaking is working fine for the most part, it's SWF that breaks the matchmaking because skill isn't a necessity in SWF. MMR will not help, it means Skilled SoloQ will all be together but they are not the ones complaining so there's no point there, MMR also won't work because Killer can't handle more than 2 skilled SoloQ's.
My Conclusions are that good Survivors players aren't the ones crying about SoloQ it's bad Survivor players that cry, there's nothing particularly wrong with matchmaking, rank disparity doesn't mean anything and is a necessary part of the system to allow the killer a possibility of winning, just cause you are facing red rank survivors doesn't mean they are all good, if they are all good then that's a problem and in that case yes the matchmaking failed, most likely because they were an SWF (despite manny of them never admitting to it) or if MMR was active then you faced 4 good SoloQ's because that's what MMR would do...MMR will screw killers over and perpetuate the cycle of crying from bad Survivors, only Skilled SoloQ benefit and guess what SWF will still bypass MMR because skill in SWF is less relevant.
Comments
That's a lot of generalizations....
FYI I have streamed almost every game I have played in DBD (3300 hours). Of those 3300 hours almost 1600 are as survivor...and 90% of those matches were solo. And just like in your post - almost every match where 3-4 survivors escape - I am accused of being in a SWF. My favorite part is when the killer comes to my stream to say I only won etc because of SWF - they feel REAL stupid when they see I am solo.
I find your post on par with people who tend to play killer more/exclusively - full of generalizations. This isn't to say that many survivor "mains" don't do the same thing. Anyways: GLHF.
MMR would put Killers against survivors that match the Killers skill level. The matchmaking is so bad right now that Killers and survivors are getting screwed. You're getting matched with survivor death-squads or survivors are getting potatoes in their group. MMR will fix these very unfun matches.
Where exactly would you consider i'm generalizing?
Your experience tells me that Killer's aren't ready to deal with good SoloQ survivors like i said, be it 1 or all the way up to 4 good SoloQ survivors, so when they can't cause it's highly likely they can't they generally assume it's SWF because the Survivors did things right on the background aswell. But that's a wrong assumption like you say and i agree, i said most likely that scenario would indicate an SWF, it doesn't have to always be an SWF like your experience proves so it proves that Good SoloQ's are just as strong or stronger than SWF and again that even good killers can't really handle when theres 2 or more good SoloQ Survivors. I've had matches as killer where i got destroyed and people told me no we're Solo and we finally got matched with other good Survivors, this only proves that this is an exception and not the general rule, the general rule will be for the skill level of survivors to be spread out to not allow scenarios where killers are helpless to happen frequently, in this regard matchmaking is functioning as it should.
Thus the real matter here is individual player skill wich again only proves the average Survivor skill is low, and should be lower than killers too, since Survivor population is higher by necessity, and it's those people that cry for SoloQ buffs not realizing that the problem is their lack of skill and MMR will not fix that either, it will only put those people with people within same skill range so it won't benefit bad survivors at all wich i guess is good in the sense that well with MMR only bad players deal with bad players but then they will still keep crying anyway and they are in numbers advantage so we will still be in this circle where BHVR has to look at how to make the game beeter for the biggest number of people despite the bigger number of people not understanding why that is happening. We've already had the MMR experiment and it went so bad wich helps prove what i'm saying, MMr will only make things worse in general. And honestly it's exactly because of this circle that we've had some questionable changes thoughout DbD's history and why some obvious changes that are needed aren't adressed because it's a numbers game of people crying do this vs a smaller number of people saying no that's not right.
I honestly doubt you or anyone that plays both sides regularly will ever complain about SoloQ needing a buff or matchmaking being in the wrong since you understand that the better a single survivor is the harder it becomes for the killer to deal with the whole team so like i said innevitably the matchmaking has to compensate by having 1 or 2 survivors that the killer can somewhat comfortably deal with in order to put meaningful pressure on the team as a whole otherwise the killer can't handle multiple good Survivors. So the better that 1 good SoloQ is the worse someone else has to be to compensate in the 4v1 aspect but then ofc your SoloQ game is affected by that less skilled survivor literally not knowing anything but you have to understand you're dealing with a less skilled killer aswell so your best option is try to lead the team and let the others do gens while the killer chases you and in that aspect you have the skill advantage or do what you can to progress the game as fast as possible to try and save yourself and help save someone else and here we go back to the whole 2 escape 2 survive balance that BHVR desires. If the killer was more skilled too then you'll have better teammates aswell because the killer can in theory handle that right? But then the strength of the 4v1 superior aswell and superior to the strength of the killer and scenarios where killer can't do very well happens and this will always be true.
I love to play stealthy, sneakily (I just enjoy it, it's what makes this game and others such as Monstrum the most tense, exciting and fun for me) which I've seen others describe as playing in an "immersive" way. I've been criticized after the game for this, NEVER by the killer but a few times by salty teammates who, I guess, decided that because they didn't see me I must have just been hiding throughout the course of the entire game. My score said otherwise, but whatever.
On the other hand, I myself have been the victim of teammates who did, literally, spend the ENTIRE match just hanging way out in the corner and creeping around behind walls, rocks, trees, and in bushes. Just sitting there doing nothing but moving enough to avoid the crows, and then voyaging just enough to find the hatch and then camp THAT. Wait for teammates to die, get the hatch, winner winner chicken dinner. I use aura perks and have seen other players do this multiple times. It's ######### disgusting.
I made a thread about it yesterday. I posited that something should be implemented, like a point check or an action check or something that the game can run at hatch time to determine whether the player has actually done ANYTHING. I mean I and another player kept the killer at bay for five minutes with ONE gen left to go because we assumed that the other player was going for it. Nope, they were just patiently waiting for us to lose. Not only should that not be rewarded, it should be punished.
No MMR will not fix this. High MMR = High Skill right? I think this is something we agree on?
So if that is the case then High MMR killer has to face High MMR Survivors. High MMR Survivors will always have the advantage over High MMR Killers both in 1v1 and the overall strength of the 4v1. The Killer chasing any of the 4 survivors means the other 3 are doing gens, as they absolutly should. We're in a High MMR scenario so survivors won't be doing nothing, Survivors won't go down instantly, the killer cannot do very well, they will have to play the best they can and still their skill and power can't rival the strength of the 4v1. High MMR matches will be terrible for killer, mid MMR matches will be interesting most of the times but always favoring Survivors in the 4v1 and low MMR matches wich will be the majority will be horrible but that's the majority of people so those will still cry to buff SoloQ and cry about SWF. BHVR will listen to numbers only.
This is exactly what the MMR experiment proved, don't forget we already tested the MMR system and it was awful. Dowsey had super High MMR and waited over 2 hours for a match on Stream meanwhile everyone else was having super weird matches and why? Because the average MMR is low. We already tested and proved it isn't viable and since then we haven't had any news, it's been months, manny months now. MMR will not work in DbD.
The fact you have that playstyle is absolutly fine and you're skilled at it but you're helping your team regardless if they see it or not, you are playing and progressing the game, you are good, you are skilled. That helps prove my point that the average skill level of survivor is low wich is why people would or will in fact accuse you of doing nothing, because they don't understand what you are doing and how you are doing it. I absolutly agree with you, people who legitimetly do not help progress the game need to be punished somehow, you can't just avoid gameplay entirely and have a chance to escape. It's not fair to anyone.
Thank you. I sort of doubted myself when I got those first couple of comments that were along the lines of "oh hey thanks for hiding all match, Mike". I was like "I don't understand, isn't it GOOD to avoid the killer? I'm trying my best, I'm just being careful". I was new. Now I know to ignore crap like that.
I have never once "hidden" in this game. Not any more than maybe ten or twenty seconds when the killer was nearby and I knew that I could lay low and let him or her pass, that kind of thing. I'm almost always on the move, often running in fact, I just try to avoid the killers as much as I can. I don't aggro, I don't like chases and looping (partly because I'm not good at it, I need practice and it's difficult to get any against experienced killers, but hopefully upcoming bot matches will change that). I just try to be a little more reserved and careful. That's why I use almost all aura perks: I like to try to be aware of where my teammates are and what their status is, as well as the killer's when I can, so I know when it's best to run to help and when it's best to hang back and do a gen when someone else goes for the save.
Even now I still get some people here on this forum complaining that I'm not "playing the game right", and have been told things like "chasing is the most important thing in this game, it's what most people enjoy the most, so you should be doing that", etc. I disagreed and still do, I'm not going to change the way I play to suit anyone else. As long as I contribute - and I do - then that's what should matter. I'm already punished by getting the least amount of points most of the time (you only get really great points when you accomplish a lot of everything, including confrontations), I don't need to be scolded for "hiding" when, in fact, I can't stand the people who hide any more than they do.
Thanks for the encouragement, it's honestly appreciated.
MM is not broken. The issue is there is not enough people playing killer that are required for how many people are playing survivor. This problem is most acute in the high ranks at peak player hours (evenings) where survivors vastly outnumber killers. MM priotizes faster qeues over balanced matches. The devs don't want survivors waiting 15-30 minutes for a similar ranked killer.
During the last MMR test, on a whole, matches were more balanced but high rank survivors and to a lesser extant a few high rank killers saw much longer queue times than they currently have right now. As under the last version of MMR, they were no longer being matched with low rank players to have shorter queues.
I guarantee when MMR is turned on for final, the biggest change from last time will be a more lax version that will match high MMR players with low MMR players if the high MMR players can't find a killer to match with after a certain period of time.
Which only brings us back to where we are right now. The real fix is more people playing killer, and enough of them sticking with the role to rank up. So low rank killers are no longer being matched with high rank survivors. Hence why the devs are adding BP rewards for roles that are underplayed. They're trying to bribe people to play killer.
Do you have any proof of that? Because to me it seems like wishfull thinking, especially with no details how mmr will work and what it goals will actually be (other than a "better experience for both killers and survivors")
I doubt it tho, because DBD is not really a ranked game. ELO doesnt really work in an assymettrical game. You could be the best survivor alive and not know about certain counters, meaning lower rank survivors would be able to perform better than the best survivor because they mained Doctor and know what hurts him a lot.
MMR wont really "fix" matches like that, all it will do is make sure that priority in matchmaking gets addressed. Meaning a rank 13 killer wont face a red rank squad if there are purple and red rank killers available. But it also means rank 15 survivors wont encounter a red rank killer if there are green rank killers available.
If MMR were to be implemented like you might think it will be implemented, it would mean certain players will have queues that last 30+ minutes because they are too good and no survivors/killers of their caliber are available for a lobby. Which, obviously would kinda ruin the game. So dont expect MMR to be magically fixing matches, at best, it will influence matchmaking to try to get the most favourable match but if matchmaking lasts too long, matches like death squads or potatoes will still happen.
Solo survivors kill themselves on hook much more than swf.
Solo players DC much more frequently than swf.
You could be the best solo player on earth and if you're with 3 mediocre players and one of them removes themselves from the game early, the killer is going to have an easier time playing that game. Period. End of story.
Absolutly and that's a player mentality problem and a skill problem. They lack skill or are new players or just don't care so they DC or kill themselves and it makes the match unpleasent for everyone else. Unlike say Call of Duty, nobody is gonna fill that slot, it's a permenant Xv1 situation with X amount of gens remaining. I think the best solution we can hope for in a more immediate Future is the implementation of Bot AI when someone DC's in the early stages of the game, example if someone DC's before the 2 minute mark then a Bot AI can be added to the match.
There's an accumulation of things that make DC's worse, you sit and wait X time for a lobby, then you're guaranteed to wait 60 seconds in the lobby then you're waitting again on the loading screen and then when things like DC's and people being douchebags happen then it's extra frustrating because you already waited all that time and now you had an unpleasent match and you're back to waiting more for another lobby, then wait more in the lobby, then wait in another load screen and the same stuff can happen again. You end up waiting so much time in DbD, it's a big issue honestly.
These are issues i think are legitimetly more worthy of concern rather than listening to a large number of people complaining about Balance because so manny of those people really don't understand the game or have any morality in manny cases to demand Buffs and Nerfs but it's easy for any Dev to see a large number of people say something and feel pressured to please this people and i think this is what happened manny times and will still happen.
Most of the times i disagree with how BHVR does things is because i know they are doing those things to cater to the lower end of the spectrum of DbD players. By making things more accessible to the lower specturm of playerbase BHVR creates a platform for whenever something doesn't meat those standards then that whole segment of the player base is voicing themselves and because that's a large number of people, BHVR is pressured to make things even more accessible. Wich is why i've expressed my disapointment with the Resident Evil Chapter PTB, they are catering way too much to newcomers and i think it hurt their designs, especially for killer, obviously it's a licensed Chapter so they have some restrinctions and expectations to meet but this time i think they went a bit overboard with making it too accessible to new comers. and it creates a problem, if something is too accessible to newcomers then the more experienced spectrum of players get something they can easily exploit because it was made with lower accessibility requirements.