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Orion
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- Orion
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Thanks for making my queues longer, I really appreciate it.
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@LetsPlayTogether said:
As if anyone cares about representation at all.
Some people do, yes, and I'm happy that they're getting it because it doesn't affect me at all and makes them happy. A win-win.
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@Antimon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1350745#Comment_1350745
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/3U6EYOR4BRSF/screenshot-2020-06-14-16-07-55.png
+ some other quotes from her
:
"The flashbacks are PTSD not schizophrenia since they don't materialize.. Like she doesn't think they're physically there and real, there's no evidence of that, so the're normal flashbacks which means they're the result of PTSD."
-her saying that.
Works for me. Thanks.
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@Archosaurus said:
The point you made about members of the LGBTQ+ community being normalized is the most important point to consider. For example, based on their lore in the archives, Frank and Julie of the Legion were in a relationship. The lore didn't outright advertise them as straight characters, but their relationship was important to the story so it was hinted at.
This is how relationships of other varieties should be handled, and if it is handled this way then I'll be fine with it. An LGBTQ+ character shouldn't be waved like a flag just to make sure players know that Dead by Daylight is "inclusive". For example, if at any point in her life Kate was in a relationship with another woman, don't lift her above the crowd and say, "HERE IS OUR LGBTQ+ CHARACTER! SEE HOW INCLUSIVE WE ARE?" Instead, if that relationship is important to her lore like Frank and Julie's relationship was, casually mention it and move on.
The technique to designing an effective LGBTQ+ character is specifically not making them stand out for that trait.
The technique to designing an effective LGBTQ+ character is specifically not making them stand out for that trait.
Indeed, and I believe BHVR is smart enough (and has enough LGBT staff) to know that. It's like Ellen Ripley: she wasn't designed to be a female badass, she was just designed to be a badass and then Sigourney Weaver happened to get the role. As a result, we got a character who's arguably one of the biggest badasses ever put to film.
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They do indeed plan on exploring/stating the orientations of characters who haven't had theirs revealed yet. That's what the tweet said.
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@Squirrel_Thicc said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1350892#Comment_1350892
I'm not saying they don't care. I'm just saying that they care a lot more during these times. They probably do care, they just probably don't care as much as they claim and let on.
They're a company, I'd expect nothing less. However, they show support outside "these times", so I'm inclined to believe them, the same way I believe your issue with confirming which characters are LGBT has nothing to do with anti-LGBT sentiment.
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@DrDeepwound said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1350825#Comment_1350825
You really need to relax man, you been in these threads all day and sound like you need to take a chill man. yeah I get it, you know, when you type out a sentence sometimes things dont come across to everyone on the internet. Honestly, back up and go get some fresh air.
That wasn't meant to come across as aggressive, I genuinely wanted to make sure you understood.
EDIT: I removed the question from the comment.
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@Squirrel_Thicc said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1350872#Comment_1350872
Seeing it that way, it would seem like a double standard. And outrage is always unnecessary for something like this. I'm not outraged, I'm just giving my opinion but I understand your POV. Your pov doesn't apply to me in particular but I see where you're coming from. And I do think that the dev's don't genuinely care about lgbt as much as they say they do. They're just like every other company that supports pride only when it's convenient for them. They never wanna say anything about it until it benefits them more, like pride month.
I'm glad you understand.
I think you're wrong about the devs not caring. They've expressed support for the LGBT community multiple times, not just during pride month. Of course, that doesn't mean they don't expect to make a profit from it - they're still a company, after all, and they need to make ends meet.
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@Squirrel_Thicc said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1350856#Comment_1350856
Tbh I didn't even know that Frank and julie were a couple. So I can't really speak on that. My MAIN issue is that I feel like the dev's are only doing this to make themselves look good for pride month. They never did any of this before pride, and they're probably only doing it to make themselves look good. (Talking about outing gay characters on my last sentence).
Let's say they're just doing this to make themselves look good. So ######### what? Why is it a bad thing that they're giving LGBT characters the same treatment as non-LGBT characters? If they'd waited until July, for example, do you seriously think there wouldn't have been any outrage?
Again, I ask that you put yourself in my shoes and try to look at it from my PoV. I don't even care about representation, just for the record.
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@Antimon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1350793#Comment_1350793
Well, it is technically a mutation.
I thought epigenetics were the main factor.
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@Squirrel_Thicc said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1350833#Comment_1350833
The way I see it is "hmm, let's just list a few random characters that are gay with no thought behind it". When they randomly out characters like this, that's all I see it as.
That's how they did it with Frank and Julie, for example, to zero outrage.
I'd like to ask that you put yourself in my shoes for a moment and look at it from my point of view. When Frank and Julie became a confirmed (heterosexual) couple via the rift, there was no outrage. Nobody cared, nobody made a big deal out of it, nobody opposed it. However, when the devs hinted at the possibility of confirming that some characters are LGBT, immediate outrage ensued, including from people who have never even read the lore and claim not to care about it, but are still upset that the lore they don't even read will include those confirmations anyway.
You may say the outrage has nothing to do with anti-LGBT sentiment, and in your particular case I'm inclined to agree, but you can't deny that it looks exactly like anti-LGBT sentiment when LGBT people getting the same exact treatment as non-LGBT people gets this many people riled up.
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@Squirrel_Thicc said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1350824#Comment_1350824
Exactly my point. But it would be nice if they added these characters into the game rather than focus on old characters who's lore has already been shared. Make new characters with new lore and whatever else they want. It's stupid to out old characters just because they can.
Some of the characters already present in the game are LGBT, though. The devs want to out them all instead of only the straight ones. The whole point of the rift (besides the battle pass) is to add more lore pertaining to old characters.
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@DrDeepwound said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1350824#Comment_1350824
But you see, thats YOUR opinion, maybe someone else wants the survivor to be all about pride?
Thats the problem with opinion, everyone thinks theirs weights more than the other. BUt thats not the case.
OK?
The devs will do as they see fit, nobody's trying to impose anything on anyone. We're discussing our opinions.
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@ProfoundEnding said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1350742#Comment_1350742
They're fictional characters. I think it's highly possible the developers could easily change their minds on a characters sexual preference before it's officially confirmed.
Indeed, and it speaks to the normality of LGBT people that it would make no difference whatsoever.
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@DrDeepwound said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1350817#Comment_1350817
"There's a lot of us out there and I will admit it does get to be a bit frustrating that the Black chick/guy is automatically the "sporty" one."
As I said, meg is the athlete https://deadbydaylight.gamepedia.com/Meg_Thomas
perhaps I read it wrong
Yes, you read it wrong, which is what I explained. @OtakuBurrito is saying it's nice Claudette isn't the "sporty" one.
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@Squirrel_Thicc said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1350808#Comment_1350808
My point is that they shouldn't have outed ANY of the characters. If they're going to add a gay character I would like them to be organic and not just have the label slapped on them. Idk why they think that they need to out ANYONE because it doesn't matter. I'm all for them adding a character that's gay if it has something to do with the story. Right now what they're doing is pulling a jk Rowling and giving us useless information about existing characters. I really hope that if they add a gay character they don't shove it in our faces.
Yes, we agree, they shouldn't have outed any of them. However, they did, so we need to move past "shoulda coulda woulda", just like the devs did.
There's nothing more organic than a character who happens to be LGBT, because that's how it is IRL as well. The "label slapped on them" is exactly how it should be done, as opposed to making their orientation their main (or only) defining characteristic.
Having it be a main component of their backstory is basically the definition of "shoving it in our faces".
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@DrDeepwound said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1350809#Comment_1350809
Meg is the sporty one hence her perks, Claudette is a bookworm never thought of her as "sporty" at all.
That's what they're saying, that it's nice to break from the stereotype that black people must automatically be the "sporty" ones.
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@Squirrel_Thicc said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1350801#Comment_1350801
I don't know who any of the straight characters other than nurse are... because I don't care. It's pandering to all sides. Sexuality doesn't matter in a game like this. If the nurse was gay it wouldn't change her story, so her sexuality doesn't matter. It's pandering because they're outing characters to please us, not because it'll effect the actual story. Doesn't matter if someone's straight or gay right? Then why make it known? It doesn't matter.
That's what they originally had intended, but then they started confirming a bunch of characters were heterosexual, so they decided to go all in and confirm LGBT as well. I don't see what the issue is, now that the cat's out of the bag. Let LGBT have representation just like heterosexuals already do.
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@Squirrel_Thicc said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1350786#Comment_1350786
I don't have a problem with it. They're just pandering. If they said that claudette was gay, what would that change in her lore? Nothing, they'd only be saying it to pander. I would not mind an organic gay or trans character, they're just adding them in the worst possible way. I also just don't think and a character's sexuality matters unless it's actually used as an important part of their story. Including any straight character, so don't even say I have a problem with gay people.
Same difference, why are you against pandering now, but not when it was about heterosexuals? Your claims don't match your words. I didn't see any of this outrage when the devs went back on their word about sexualities and confirmed some of the survivors were heterosexual.
Also, they're adding them in the best possible way, which is via extended lore and showing (yes, showing, because they're not "making" anyone anything) that LGBT were here all along and nobody noticed because they're regular people.
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@Antimon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1350685#Comment_1350685
They can mentally be females, but unless they literally transplant their brains into another body, the DNA structure tells us that they're males.
Trans men/women just want to be called men/women. Focusing on the DNA structure is incredibly short-sighted due to all the intersex conditions. Yes, I know, those are a tiny minority, but they're a much larger group than trans people. Denying trans people the ability to identify as men/women because of their DNA is also denying intersex people the ability to do the same.
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@Squirrel_Thicc said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1350662#Comment_1350662
I think that's even worse. They said that they made all previous characters an open canvas but now they're gonna be slapping the lgbt label on any character they want to even though sexuality has NOTHING to do with their characters. If there's gonna be a gay or trans character I want it organically and for it to be important to their lore without it shoved down our throats every second. Slapping the lgbt label on any character regardless of their lore is completely pandering.
Why do you have a problem with it now, when they've been confirming heterosexuals since the Nurse?
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@aGoodOldRub said:
Wiki doesn't show bloodpoint rewards anymore but I remember breaking pallets/gens and hitting survivors give brutality so any killer that do those alot.
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@Antimon said:
She hasn't been treated very nicely in her childhood to say the least.. So yeah, that's a recurring problem in today's world sadly.
That's why I said asking her for her opinion would be interesting and far more accurate than this back-and-forth, but she shouldn't actually comment here.
PS: I'd ask my schizophrenic friend, but she doesn't like to discuss her condition and I respect that.
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@Angelicus23 said:
honestly this is the right way to support lgbt+.
Please make wraith gay on his tome please please please
To be clear, nobody's "making" anyone anything. The characters will be confirmed straight or LGBT.
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@Antimon said:
I really want to get my gf involved in this now..
It would be nice (and far more accurate) to have her perspective, but given how people with mental issues are treated, I'd advise against her actually commenting on the forum. Just my two cents.
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@Antimon said:
I think getting physically and mentally abused for 20 years is FAR more traumatic than the death of a loved one.
" You're right, she didn't have hallucinations. I could've sworn the devs had added a line about hallucinations along with those "concepts of purification" and the "re-played memories" "
- "Memories that are re-played every night" - Flashbacks aren't specifically hallucinations.
- "concepts of purification" - Delusions aren't hallucinations.
As a guy with a gf with schizophrenia and a few friends with varying degrees of mental instabilities, I can tell you that I'd think about PTSD way sooner than Schizophrenia.
I think getting physically and mentally abused for 20 years is FAR more traumatic than the death of a loved one.
...Yes, that's what I said.
"Memories that are re-played every night" - Flashbacks aren't specifically hallucinations.
"concepts of purification" - Delusions aren't hallucinations.
I am aware, that's why I said I thought the devs had included hallucinations along with those lines, not that those lines indicated hallucinations.
As a guy with a gf with schizophrenia and a few friends with varying degrees of mental instabilities, I can tell you that I'd think about PTSD way sooner than Schizophrenia.
To clarify: she definitely has PTSD (come on, the woman spent 20 years under physical and mental stress and abuse), but the overall condition makes me think of schizophrenia due to what I know of the conditions via my friends who have them.
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@Antimon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1350662#Comment_1350662
which ones? I'm interested.
If we knew that, there'd be no point to the tweet saying they were going to confirm it. I opened a thread where people could speculate, if you want to read it: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/160550/taking-all-bets-which-characters-are-lgbt-and-which-are-heterosexual
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Nope. Those things are not related at all.
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@Antimon said:
Well they DID do some extensive research to do Doctor's background Lore (about MKUltra and all that stuff). So I think that they would've done the same if they really wanted to say the Nurse had schizophrenia.
Depression can both be Nevrotic and Psychotic.
There is literally nothing in her lore indicating she has hallucinations, if you think otherwise please quote the text.
Catatonia was previousely thought to be exclusive to schizophrenia, but recently it has been confirmed that it also appears in bipolar and depressive pathologies as well as PTSD (which is the more likely illness that she has).
The traumatic event you're talking about wasn't as traumatic as the things she saw in the Asylum. And no, the general description fits more PTSD rather than schizophrenia.
Arguably MKUltra is talked about more than the minutiae of mental illnesses, but OK.
You're right, she didn't have hallucinations. I could've sworn the devs had added a line about hallucinations along with those "concepts of purification" and the "re-played memories".
Her hopes and dreams were crushed, I'd say that's fairly traumatic. I'm not saying it was nearly as traumatic as spending 20 years in an insane asylum, but still fairly traumatic.
As a layman with a friend with PTSD and another with schizophrenia, I would sooner think "schizophrenia" after reading her condition than I would PTSD. Let's agree to disagree.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1350666#Comment_1350666
Interesting cause their anniversary stream said "next month", meaning June.
Maybe an issue arose in the mean time. I'd rather they take their time to fix it.
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@Mooks said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1350647#Comment_1350647
But as far as we know this will exactly be the case.
there is nothing in the tweet that indicates they will make a completely new char with their only trait being LGBT (exactly no one wants this or asked for this here iirc).
That is what they said, that the LGBT characters were already here but they only confirmed the heterosexual ones. This was seen as a faux pas on their part, hence the apologetic tone of the tweet.
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@Antimon said:
"you said you don’t give a f about the nurses sexuality, but then you said you don’t want any LGBT+ stuff in the game? That is very contradicting. Either you don’t care or you don’t want it."
-True, I do care about it as I don't want an entire character built around the principle of being Gay or whatever. If the character has a rich backstory and some pretty good lore overall with a sprinkle of "and btw he's gay" on top, then cool! I don't mind it at all. But if it's a Neeko situation where the entire character is made to be lesbian/gay, then I do have a problem with that.
"have you considered they add it not because of whiners but because they actually gradually expand the lore in every aspect? I didn’t see that many people that were against the tome backstories though."
- That would actually be awesome imo. I think it will be pretty obvious if they gave in to the whiners or if they actually wanted to expand the universe.
The thing is, the LGBT characters are already here. It's not like they're going to create a character from the ground up just to add an LGBT character. They've already created LGBT characters and simply didn't confirm it. All they're going to do is confirm it. This is what's written in their tweet, if you take the time to read it.
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@Antimon said:
Please mention said symptoms. And if the devs were going for schizophrenia, I think that they would have actually made it more apparent than whatever you're talking about.
She had depression, delusions, and hallucinations and was catatonic when they found her. Furthermore, she was under extreme physical and mental stress for 20 years following a traumatic event (the death of her husband). To me, this screams schizophrenia. The brain abnormalities must've been there all along and her condition was exacerbated by her situation.
I think your problem is that you're thinking too much like a doctor (no pun intended) and not enough like a layman. The devs weren't going to do extensive research on schizophrenia and make sure they mentioned every little detail of her condition, nobody would even give a #########. The general description given by them fits the general understanding of schizophrenia.
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@Antimon said:
If you're really a physician that tries to diagnose someone based on 1 SYMPTOM ONLY, then you're either not a physician or you should be fired immediately.
I said I'm a physicist, not a physician. That's why I know MRIs hadn't been invented in the 19th century, even though I don't know when they were invented, simply because I know how they work. The Nurse had/has multiple symptoms common with schizophrenia, some of which are pathognomonic of it. While her lore skips a lot of the minutiae, I don't think it's unreasonable to conclude the devs were going for schizophrenia.
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@Antimon said:
Until you read the lore 3 times in a row so it's hard-written in your brain, don't come spitting out some bullshit that you don't know anything about. Do some research.
I'll take that as a "Yes, I concur".
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@DeadArsenal said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1350618#Comment_1350618
Ah, here we are, the part where you conflate social justice warriors with every Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transexual in the world as if I am attacking them all collectively. Nice bait, but you're not trying hard enough. No, the ideology is social crusaders fighting petty causes for "inclusivity" under the delusion that they're fighting injustice. Your eagerness to misrepresent my argument is nauseating in the extreme.
OK.
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Still waiting for you to say if you concur with my diagnosis of the Nurse or not.
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@Antimon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1350605#Comment_1350605
This seems like another one of those "JK Rowling" moments where there's a completely useless piece of info given with no meaning behind it, just to please some whiners that want to see gay stuff everywhere.
So they should please the whiners who just want straight stuff stuff instead? Some people genuinely enjoy the lore. Why can't you be happy for them?
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@DeadArsenal said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1350609#Comment_1350609
So you think outrage culture is a "conspiracy theory?" LOL, alright chief. I'm going to bed. Have fun.
No, I saw outrage culture is alive and well the instant BHVR said they weren't just going to confirm characters in their game were heterosexual or had had heterosexual relationships. I think the way you're speaking of LGBT as if it's an "ideology" with the ability to exert influence across the globe is a conspiracy theory. It's not the first time I've heard someone speak of a group that has one thing in common in such a way. It's usually about liberals or ethnic or religious groups, though.
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@Mooks said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1350478#Comment_1350478
No one said that we will never get characters that are schizophrenic or depressed, or did they?
I already discussed this with him. Nurse and Doctor fit his bill, but he refuses to acknowledge it.
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@DeadArsenal said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1350585#Comment_1350585
You're not going to change many minds with an attitude of smug indifference. Blackmailing companies into stepping in line with an ideology wins even fewer hearts and minds. Feigning innocence only works for so long before people get the picture. Remember that.
Fun fact: I don't give a ######### either way and never spoke to BHVR about this, despite being LGBT. So what's with the conspiracy theory?
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@dastru said:
oh yay i cant wait BHVR to bend the knee and succumb to future posts of furries dont feel represented so lets boycotted it or give me an attack helicopter legendary skin or we will tear you down
Please, what are next week's lottery numbers?
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@Mooks said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1350555#Comment_1350555
They could very well add characters with those traits. They never said they will not.
they will also likely not add a character for every possible gender/sexual orientation. But they said in the past they will never mention the sexual orientation but -because they already contradicted themselves in some way- they now stated they won’t restrict themselves in this area anymore. That’s all they said in the tweet really.
Indeed, but you know people like to read the lines, even when they're not there. Look how many believe they're being called bigots when someone points out an issue with something they said.
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@DeadArsenal said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1350552#Comment_1350552
The inevitable reactionary response is the threat. It's happened to other games already. Cyberpunk 2077 faced the same exact thing. All of a sudden somebody decided it was time to be morally outraged, retweeted it thousands of times, and both the social justice community and the press came raining down on the developers like vultures. This backlash is everpresent and represents nothing short of an existential threat to any business that encounters it. This is how "inclusivity" is bought nowadays apparently, at twitter outrage point. Pressure is exerted on a business until it is forced to make a statement and if that statement doesn't make everybody feel nice and proud of themselves there will be hell to pay.
So the threat is an imagined future event. Gotcha.
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@Antimon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1350560#Comment_1350560
You don't need MRI's to diagnose mental Illnesses in most cases. They're only useful if there's a chance that the symptoms were produced by physical abnormalities in the brain / elsewhere in the body.
You're the one who brought up brain structures, now you're backpedaling?
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@Antimon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1350556#Comment_1350556
I don't think schizophrenics go around murdering people because of some delusions. Moreover, delusions is only ONE of the many symptoms found in schizophrenia and MANY other illnesses.
You think incorrectly. It's not unusual for people with severe delusions to harm themselves and/or others, schizophrenia or no.
You're right, delusions is just one of the many symptoms of schizophrenia. However, her particular case fits an onset of schizophrenia. Under severe stress (mental and physical), a traumatic event, hallucinations, depression, and her unresponsive state when she was found.
Do you concur, doctor?
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@Antimon said:
Want me to give you a crash course on psychology?
I'm good. Want me to give you a crash course on medical scanning equipment developed before the invention of the airplane?
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@Primalux135 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1350540#Comment_1350540
Okay you got me,now I want a indian killer or survivor or they will be racist more over I want a grey alien killer or are they racist of aliens?
Like I said, trying to manufacture controversy. You have the Demogorgon, though, who's sorta like an alien.
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@Antimon said:
YOU CAN NOT DEVELOP SCHIZOPHRENIA IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE PSYCHOTIC STRUCTURE AFTER entering adulthood. Take some psychology classes PLEASE.
And how do you know she didn't? MRIs weren't exactly standard in the 19th century.