Orion
Orion
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@DeadArsenal said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1353982#Comment_1353982
Funny, it's like you ignored EVERYTHING after the first two sentences of my post because you can't actually form a coherent argument. I pointed at proof BHVR were pressured, lots of it. When pressured you either say "yes" or you receive an unceasing shitstorm of epic proportions. That is called a tacit threat. Now, are you a human being with thoughts capable of understanding complex concepts or are you a forum goblin that only argues according to your program?
You posted a tweet and expected people to dig through thousands of comments to find proof for your argument. You're essentially saying "I made the argument, now you go look for proof that I'm right", which is absurd.
Show me the proof. It's that simple.
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@Buttercake said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1353958#Comment_1353958
I didn't mean I wasn't, I meant my joke wasn't. Sometimes people get mad when you don't follow their topic. I was nervous to post it, even though I thought the joke was funny. 😅
Nah, it's fine. Like I told the other guy, this is a reprieve from all the naysayers shoving their opinions down our throats. We're here to have fun.
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@DeadArsenal said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1353964#Comment_1353964
If you don't care enough why should I? Scroll through them. Besides, I find it funny that you demand proof that people are threatened by backlash when there's truck loads of empirical evidence for it happening multiple times a year every year. The social justice community has even been satirized by South Park as a bunch of frat boy bully thought police and you still don't get it. That community is the threat. Not LGBT people, not cosmetics in a videogame, but a coordinated group of social engineers punishing anyone and everyone that questions their worldview.
You should because you made the argument. "That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."
I'm asking for proof that people threatened BHVR, which is what you said, so let's not go off-topic.
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It's the same point as any other piece of lore. If you're not into it, you literally won't even notice it's there.
Thank you, you have a good day as well.
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@DeadArsenal said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1353955#Comment_1353955
https://twitter.com/DeadByBHVR/status/1268258785480585219
"False information" look at the comments. I've got work today I don't have time to joust with someone that calls me a liar.
Surely you can point to those threats that were made instead of expecting me - or anyone, really - to read thousands of comments. You made the argument, so why should I go find the evidence to support it?
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@Buttercake said:
Well, not LGBTQIA+ but,,
behaviour says these folks are 'Easy' 😒
Dwight
Meg
Claudette
Ace
Feng
Kate
Ash
Nancy
Steve
Laurie and Bill are the only ones hard to get.
You don't need to be LGBT, all fun comments are welcome.
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@DeadArsenal said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1353614#Comment_1353614
You didn't even know eh? Well that's nice, but this was all prompted by direct demands on twitter toward DbD devs via their community manager. They were pressured into doing this. That's the problem, right there. Not because a character is gay or DbD were feeling particularly warm and fuzzy, but because they were PRESSURED into doing so under tacit threat of backlash. That is not how you win hearts and minds. Quite the opposite, actually, it's how you alienate them.
"This is tracer all over again" oh you mean a totally pointless and meaningless corporate gesture to pacify a demographic of consumers? Good, we're on the same page.
Why are you spreading false information?
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@felipao_brabo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1349614#Comment_1349614
this is the offtopic thread my man
It wasn't always here, it was moved.
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@PrincessPoop said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1352829#Comment_1352829
Yes agreed, and especially for male characters. I’ve heard too many people say that bi guys are just gay guys still halfway in the closet and it makes my blood boil.
Or the promiscuity stereotype.
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If you want to express discontent, that's what the majority of the other threads flooding the forum are for. This is for people to have fun sharing their speculation. It's supposed to be a nice reprieve from all the negative threads flooding the forum and shoving their opinions down our throats.
Also, it's a sexual orientation, not a "lifestyle".
Also also, sexuality has been here since the Nurse was released, with the mention of her husband in the lore. It wasn't a problem until the devs said they'd include non-heterosexuality some time in the future, for whatever strange reason.
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@SpookyStabby said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1353846#Comment_1353846
Civil rights regarding employee status now extends to LGBTQIA+.
I'm gonna guess that's in the USA because you called it "the supreme court" and didn't mention of which country.
Pro tip: There are over 200 independent territories on the planet. Please state which one you're talking about when referencing events.
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@Dpooly said:
I'm gonna go with the people saying who gives a #########, it's a video game
I'm gonna go with what I wrote in my OP:
PS: If you're someone who "doesn't care", why are you even in this thread?
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1348032#Comment_1348032
It's only easy to counter on paper
But are you really goin kick every bone? Especially with a killer on the lose
Especially if you don't know where one is, that time you could be doing gens, but as always what killer mains don't understand as always is this, you get no downside at all
Why not hope be infinite?
I would have more honor and respect for a killer who used davor hope
Yes, I am going to cleanse every totem even with a killer on the loose. Potential totem spawns are fairly noticeable and you run into them as you go from gen to gen.
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@SpookyStabby said:
In other news: HUGE congrats to us for the supreme court ruling! Every step forward counts. Love you all, fam. 🎆❤🧡💛💚💙💜💖🖤🎆
?
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@Volfawott said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1353713#Comment_1353713
Well technically Freddy is bisexual but the less we say about that the better
Pedophiles are not welcome in the LGBT community. Let's leave it at that before I say some things the mods will regret.
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@Ihatelife said:
Yes, I know that this topic is only for orginal characters, but I wonder if Demo has actually a sexuality
They lay eggs or something, right? I know it's from another dimension or whatever, but I don't know of any animals that lay eggs and exclusively reproduce asexually. I know some species are capable of parthenogenesis, but that's not the same as exclusively reproducing asexually.
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The government took it fairly seriously and half our ######### shut down when the first case was reported, so I'm pretty calm about it. The situation seems to be stable for now (not getting better or worse, even though we've started reopening everything a while ago, with certain rules in place). Personally, I just avoid going outside as much as possible, although I'm fairly certain I already got it and recovered.
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@USELESS said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1353648#Comment_1353648
Why did you bring back this a month old message? also how did you found it since it may be almost on the end page?
Wasn't me, it was the other guy, @CyberGothV. I didn't even see the date in the OP.
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I hope not.
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@Volfawott said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1352829#Comment_1352829
Honestly that's the one annoying thing about being bisexual. Either we don't exist period or the second we get into a relationship that apparently removes our identity we're now either gay or straight
Everyone knows that if you're eating a big hot dog, that automatically means you don't like any other kind of food.
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@immortalls96 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1353442#Comment_1353442
Yet it was ok for lgbt supporters to go to the forums and complain about..what? Nurse and wraith dev fan fic..? Its not even official game lore..so..sword kinda cuts both ways here
- Nurse has a confirmed husband in her lore. It has nothing to do with cosmetics.
- David has a confirmed ex-GF in his lore.
- Frank and Julie (Legion) are a confirmed couple. Their extended lore is almost exclusively about their relationship and how it was one of the driving points for the Legion to come into being.
See what I mean? We've got people who are not familiar with the lore and don't care about the lore complain about the lore now that it might contain LGBT references that they will never even read. I'm just gonna quote myself here...
@Orion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1351815#Comment_1351815
Frank and Julie were the exception. Every other character has had very small mentions of their exes or crushes or whatever. My point is that Frank and Julie's lore was expanded in precisely the way everyone says is bad, yet nobody batted an eye. However, when it's about LGBT characters, without even knowing how the devs are going to do it, suddenly everyone cries out.
I said something similar to another forumgoer, but I'd like to ask you to put yourself in my shoes for a minute. Every single complaint people have made about the quality of the LGBT character's hypothetical lore (keep in mind nothing has been released thus far, not even their name) is present in Frank and Julie's real lore. However, Frank and Julie received zero backlash, whereas the LGBT character's hypothetical lore is receiving a ######### ton of backlash, including from people who don't even read or care about the lore in the first place. How am I to assume this is anything other than thinly veiled excuses to exclude LGBT people from the game when the things they complain about are already in the game, yet received zero complaints?
Just try it. Put yourself in my shoes for a minute and tell me how I'm supposed to interpret all of this except that certain people don't want LGBT characters in their game because they're LGBT.
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@immortalls96 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1353406#Comment_1353406
See? That there is your issue..if anyone thinks it's a bad idea you simply say to shut up..this is why people have an issue with it..and let's be real..the implimination of this will be highlighted with spot lights..because now tomes will be based around it , cosmetics with appeal only to a few , who knows what else ? It shows favoritism and people feel insulted by that and I get both arguments..but saying somebody shouldnt have their opinion because it's not yours isnt the way to go about trying to being people around
I'm telling them to treat LGBT lore the same way they treated the non-LGBT lore, and the way they treated non-LGBT lore was to keep quiet - that was their choice. However, now that it's about unwritten LGBT lore, all of a sudden it's a big issue to all these people who don't read or care about the lore.
So, tell me, who's showing favoritism? Is it me, asking them to treat all lore the same way, or them, treating the lore differently?
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@immortalls96 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1349556#Comment_1349556
Actually straight people do make up the overwhelming majority and is by nature how the human race progresses..that's not political its just how we were put together..the issue people have with this game going this direction is that its being pointed in others faces for sales points only...and it only causes tensions
How is it being shoved in your face when nothing has changed in the game?
Even on the forum, I saw one thread from someone who was happy about it and people who weren't spammed it to hell, almost got the person who made it to quit the thread entirely.
I opened one thread asking for opinions on who's LGBT and who's not and it, too, had a bunch of people who "don't care" about it feel the need to let everyone know just how much they "don't care" by commenting in a thread that isn't even directed at them.
Nearly every other thread is from people who're unhappy about it and make sure to let everyone know that. They're the ones shoving their opinions in our faces and causing tensions to rise. If they'd kept their mouths shut the way they did when it was about heterosexuals, it would've been quietly put into the lore (that they claim not to read nor care about) and that would've been it. They're the ones making a big deal out of it by treating LGBT lore differently from non-LGBT lore.
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@bm33 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1352772#Comment_1352772
I hope lack of complaints are because people are waiting to have all parts unlocked before they read it (that's normally what I do) because it's pretty bad and cringey. I can only think fans of Twilight would enjoy that lore. I was one saying don't do relationship stories like this because really I don't want it for anyone. Seeing Julie and Frank's just solidifies that and I really hope they stay away from doing it again for anyone. The mentioning of relationships (nurse husband, David gf) and focusing on other stuff way more enjoyable than that crappy teen angst love story. I am glad I read that link though, now I'm not going to put in effort to unlock the rest of her story because of how bad it is.
Nope, it's because the majority of people don't read or care about the lore. Unless that lore is said to include LGBT, because then it becomes a deeply important issue for everyone.
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@yikers said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1352914#Comment_1352914
Individually no, as a group/movement yes.
When can we expect other political groups then to be promoted within the game ? Thats fair right. We should have liberals and conservative survivors, religious people? at least the major religions should be represented along with an atheist survivor.
What movement is being added to the game, exactly? All I heard is that they're going to confirm characters' orientations besides straight ones via lore.
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@DrDeepwound said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1353155#Comment_1353155
But you would buy it, and so would many, and even probably thousands of straight people would to show msupport, so its as good an idea as anyone. I don't like seeing people fight so its much easier to design a product to please both sides, dont want it, dont buy it, want it? then buy it.
capitalism is a glorious thing.
Or the devs can do it how they're already planning, which is probably via the rift. It's free for us, doesn't affect gameplay, and only those who read the lore will know about it. Win-win.
Also, those who don't like it can stop giving the devs money. Free market.
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Make Blindness actual blindness instead of hiding auras. Have the survivors' FoV restricted by dark areas so they can only see a portion of their screen (exact percentage may need to be adjusted).
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@Mooks said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1352795#Comment_1352795
I mean this statement, maybe I misunderstood it because of language barrier. then I apologize. But since you answered to my post directly I assume naturally that I was meant.
He won't answer. He thinks it's a trap, so he "loses" if he answers the question.
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@Squirrel_Thicc said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1352853#Comment_1352853
Pandering to LGBT is a little different then to a video game franchise. For me it all boils down to the dev's dont really care... they're just doing it to make themselves look good.
Not really, no. Both are part of the customer (or potential customer) demographic. From a business standpoint, it's irrelevant - you gotta pander to your demographic, period.
The devs have voiced their support for the LGBT community quite regularly. If your issue is that it's Pride Month, then I can only imagine how you felt about the Blight events during Halloween.
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@DeadArsenal said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1352838#Comment_1352838
You know what I love about this conversation? You really just can't take someone shrugging their shoulders as an answer. I've already communicated to you that almost all games are political. My opinion doesn't matter. Games are political all the time. Whether I'm okay with it is utterly irrelevant, so I do not care. Neither yes nor no. I reject the question. Is that really so hard to understand?
OK.
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@Squirrel_Thicc said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1352836#Comment_1352836
The way they worded it sounded like they were just going to randomly out everyone. If they find a way to make it important to story in some way then it's fine. Again I just don't want pandering... that's all.
Everything is pandering. Adding Silent Hill? That's pandering to the Silent Hill fans. Adding Leatherface? That's pandering to the Leatherface fans. Adding Freddy, Shape, etc.? Same thing.
Businesses have to pander to their demographic/customers, it's literally the basis for success. If they don't pander to the people who buy their products, who are they supposed to pander to? Why is "pandering" a dirty word all of a sudden?
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@Squirrel_Thicc said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1352828#Comment_1352828
That's an example of too much. They didn't need to do all of that for them. And can we please stop assuming that I have a problem with gay people it's getting really old.
Nobody is assuming anything. Did you read my comment? Try putting yourself in my shoes for a minute.
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@DeadArsenal said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1352833#Comment_1352833
Then I guess you're not going to get an answer because to me it's not a yes or no question. The concept is too broad for such simplicity. It's nothing but pure reductionism and I have no respect for reductionism.
I explicitly defined the concept so it wouldn't be so broad, but you can't even acknowledge that. Amazing.
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@Squirrel_Thicc said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1352819#Comment_1352819
What they did for Sally was perfect imo. They mentioned her sexuality or possible sexuality whatever just by saying that she had a husband. And when it comes to Frank and julie, again, all they did was say that they were into each other. All im saying is that I don't want the dev's going around saying THIS CHARACTERS BLANK. I just want them to add it to lore in a non pandering way.
They did not just say that Frank and Julie were into each other. Read the lore, they shove their straightness down our throats and it's one of the main driving points for the Legion to even exist.
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@DeadArsenal said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1352815#Comment_1352815
I gave you most of an explanatory answer. I do not respect the premise because the word "political" itself is too variable in meaning to matter. Most games get political in some capacity. It can mean anything from satire to social commentary and so on. Any time a form of government is an actor in a narrative the game is political. It's not specific enough as a descriptor for the argument to have traction.
Now, if you'll indulge me making a few assumptions and maybe devil's advocate I could jury rig some kind of real argument of that fashion. Dead By Daylight itself is essentially apolitical, at least in practice. The Entity is an extradimensional horror, no government holds sway in the trials, and the lore is just fluff. Political concepts in the same space as an apolitical environment can cause a clash of aesthetic or even destruction of immersion if handled poorly.
Like I said, bit of gymnastics stringing that together but maybe that's what they're worried about and can't express it.
I explained what I meant by "political" and asked for a yes/no question under that definition. You haven't answered, at all.
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@PrincessPoop said:
I hope they make David bisexual to challenge gay stereotypes. I’ve seen too many people saying he can’t be into dudes because he’s too masculine 😒
I hope they make someone bisexual just to show that they acknowledge our existence. To this day, only one person I've spoken with didn't automatically assume I was gay when I mentioned I had a boyfriend. I get it, bisexuality is rare, but a simple "Or are you bisexual?", even as an afterthought, would really be appreciated.
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@Squirrel_Thicc said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1352818#Comment_1352818
Where'd you get that from? I think a brief mention of a character's sexuality is all they need to do. Like how they did with Sally, they simply said that she had a husband. BOOM... that's how you conform sexuality without shoving it in our faces. I still don't think it matters too much but since they're doing it anyways I might as well give my opinion how to add a good lgbt character... and how to mention a character's sexuality without shoving it in our faces.
Like I said, please go read Frank and Julie's extended lore. I'll give you a hand:
https://deadbydaylight.gamepedia.com/Tome_III_-_Escalation#Julie_Kostenko:_Soldiers_of_MayhemWhen you're done, read this comment of mine:
@Orion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1351815#Comment_1351815
Frank and Julie were the exception. Every other character has had very small mentions of their exes or crushes or whatever. My point is that Frank and Julie's lore was expanded in precisely the way everyone says is bad, yet nobody batted an eye. However, when it's about LGBT characters, without even knowing how the devs are going to do it, suddenly everyone cries out.
I said something similar to another forumgoer, but I'd like to ask you to put yourself in my shoes for a minute. Every single complaint people have made about the quality of the LGBT character's hypothetical lore (keep in mind nothing has been released thus far, not even their name) is present in Frank and Julie's real lore. However, Frank and Julie received zero backlash, whereas the LGBT character's hypothetical lore is receiving a ######### ton of backlash, including from people who don't even read or care about the lore in the first place. How am I to assume this is anything other than thinly veiled excuses to exclude LGBT people from the game when the things they complain about are already in the game, yet received zero complaints?
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@Squirrel_Thicc said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1352724#Comment_1352724
Nurse, Frank and julie were all implied to be straight. It matters because they're pandering, my point. They're slapping the label on characters just because they can. They're trying to shove it in our faces which is unnecessary.
Go read Frank and Julie's expanded lore and tell me how that's not shoving it in our faces. Then tell me how a vague mention to a character's sexual orientation is worse.
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@DeadArsenal said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1352809#Comment_1352809
Oh, did you feel included in the group I described? Well I didn't actively include you so, I just kind of assumed you wouldn't feel included. You know? 😉
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1352810#Comment_1352810
So go argue with those "many people" instead of trying to press me to argue on their behalf.
I'm asking for an opinion, JFC. I'm a curious person by nature.
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@DeadArsenal said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1352802#Comment_1352802
Because the question is an insult to my intelligence. Any game with a government in it that does something for some reason is political. Grand Strategy Games are political. Science fiction first person shooters where the player is a soldier in a military? Political. A game where you play as an ecological terrorist saving the planet from an evil corporation? Political. A game where you are an assassin? Political. What exact kind of response to you expect to get? Oh right, a simple one. Well how's this for simple: It's an irrelevant question.
I expect a yes/no response because it's a yes/no question, the same way I'd expect a complex answer to a complex question. However, this is a simple matter of getting your opinion on a subject, so a simple question about whether you're OK with X, Y, Z is more than enough once X, Y, Z is defined.
Many people on this forum have expressed that they don't like games "getting political". Hell, there's an entire thread about it in the off-topic section. Why is it an insult to your intelligence to ask you for your opinion on the subject?
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@DeadArsenal said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1352797#Comment_1352797
So if you don't consider them political, and I never said anything about politics, who and what are you arguing against exactly? Why even bring it up? I'll tell you why: Because you've working down a list of ways to bait people into saying things that make you look like a victim.
Dude, I've been doing nothing except capitulate to you. You said you didn't say anything about games getting political, so I simply asked you for your opinion. Then you said "political" was a nebulous term, so I defined it as I see it. Even still, you can't answer a simple question because no matter what I say, you think it's all part of some plot against you.
EDIT: This is why I just said "OK" to you (I think it was you, anyway) during one of our conversations, because you can't converse in a normal manner. You behave as if you believe everything and everyone is against you.
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As a survivor, I may dodge. They're useless teammates half the time, just trying to get clips for their ######### compilation videos.
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@DeadArsenal said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1352784#Comment_1352784
No, it's a loaded question. Get a grip. The word "political" has applications so nebulous that the question is utterly meaningless and has no point. Furthermore, no, I won't excuse you because it's inexcusable. You don't reply to someone by ignoring everything they say and constructing an argument for them to walk into. Shameful.
I don't consider LGBT or inclusion on the whole to be a political thing, but rather a thing that certain groups want to make political. "Political" to me means referencing actual politics, like economic systems and systems of government.
With that definition in mind, are you OK with games getting political?
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@Mooks said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1352776#Comment_1352776
“Videogames should not get political“ is a common argument used against LGBT+ representation in DbD on this forum. You can’t expect anyone to memorize every single argument you or anyone else has made against LGBT+ When they are all far-fetched and basically boil down to „I don’t want gay stuff in my game“.
Pretty much, especially with how we have a limited pool of avatars to choose from. I actively avoid reading names until after I've replied (if ever) just so I can stay unbiased.
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@DeadArsenal said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1352772#Comment_1352772
Oh please do show me where I used the word "political" in this thread before this post. Yet again you amaze me with your ability to pay absolutely zero attention to anything anyone else says.
So are you OK with games getting political? It's a simple question.
And excuse me if I can't tell you all apart half the time when you basically make the same "complaints".
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@I_Eat_Worms said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1349560#Comment_1349560
I would rather not get political
-gets political
Where?
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@bm33 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1351795#Comment_1351795
I hadn't read the Legion rift lore until you posted this, the relationship stuff in that is so cliche and lame. I really hope any detail they use for any relationship going forward is better than that.
And keep in mind, even though that's one of the major complaints about the LGBT characters' hypothetical lore, when it came out in regards to a heterosexual couple, there were zero complaints. If you'll read my comment after the one you quoted, you'll see why LGBT people are upset.
@DeadArsenal said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1352524#Comment_1352524
All of those games have political themes. None of them had minimum positive reinforcement quotas.
I thought the issue was that games were getting political. Now getting political is fine?
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@LuffyBlack said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1352119#Comment_1352119
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1352114#Comment_1352114
I wanted to be absolutely sure and I could be wrong still so I looked up the definition prior to posting the quote.
de·bauch·er·y
/dəˈbôCHərē/
noun
- excessive indulgence in sensual pleasures.
But I also sound this too
: extreme indulgence in bodily pleasures and especially sexual pleasures : behavior involving sex, drugs, alcohol, etc. that is often considered immoral
… he was glad when others joined them, men and women; and they had more drink and spent the night in wild rioting and debauchery.
So you could definitely be right. The stuff they did could fit into debauchery. I guess Behavior wasn't as spicy or bold as I thought they were. I was like "Wow, they are actually going there."
I just feel like the devs wouldn't add sexual references to the game.
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The same way I deal with trolls. It's a 3-step program:
- Report them via whatever system the game uses.
- Ignore them, meaning don't respond to their taunts in any way.
- Move on, meaning leave ASAP, without disconnecting, and get into a new lobby.
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@LuffyBlack said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1351917#Comment_1351917
"Frank saw it as an opportunity to shape their lack of experience into something powerful. He lined up nights of debauchery and rampage, testing their limits. Bullying, vandalism, and theft were essentially their weekend plans. It came to a point where they would do anything he asked."
This shocked the hell out of me when I read it lol. I was amazed no one else caught that.
"Debauchery" doesn't necessarily mean sex. Everything illegal they did that's mentioned by name is technically a form of debauchery.