NoShinyPony
NoShinyPony
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A 2nd objective (while keeping chases the same length they currently are) is supposed to give killers that bit of additional time that they currently need.
The current state of DbD is like this: A good killer vs. a team of good survivors will lose, even if he tunnels. Chases just take so long compared to how fast gens are done.
A 2nd objective would make the game more balanced while we could keep nice chases.
That's my personal preference. I know that some people don't like long chases and want to shorten them. I can only say that I'm convinced that shortening chases is not a good idea as it would take away from DbD's uniqueness and bring it closer to other existing asymmetrical horror games.
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Another suggestion: Make it a perk for the hooked person to protect themselves from yolo saves.
It has the same effect as BT. If the hooked person runs MoM and gets unhooked in the killer's terror radius, the killer's hit would only put them in the Deep Wound status instead of downing them.
(If that perk triggers and protects the unhooked person, the unhooker should receive the usual penalty for unsave unhooks.)
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I play DbD because of the chases. For me, that's the fun part of the game, both as survivor and killer.
Shorter chases would lessen the fun for me. I don't want to play a game that has more focus on stealth (obviously, because otherwise I would play another game).
I also think that chases are the "magic ingredient" that make DbD so successful compared to other asymmetrical horror games that were targeting the same audience as DbD.
Since I don't want shorter chases, I'd like to have a 2nd objective. Also, a 2nd objective has another big advantage compared to shorter chases: It would give a new impulse to the game.
A lot of people have been playing this game for years and would like to have a new game mechanic. It would bring veterans back to the game or make them play more often than they currently are.
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SWF could deal with that, solos would have a big problem. Therefore no, that's not a good idea.
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To clarify: What do you mean by "the Survivors have at least 3 generators to finish"?
a) The survivors have done 4 gens and there are 3 unfinished gens on the map.
or
b) The survivors have done 2 gens. They still have to repair 3 gens.
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Relentless is too weak. Besides, Bloodlust is a band-aid that should get removed after maps have been reworked. I wouldn't create any perks around the Bloodlust mechanic.
Shadow Watcher in the current version sounds fine.
Ferocious Manner sounds like a perk that helps with tunneling. That's a no from me.
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IIRC, I've seen a couple of months ago one of the mods here mention that the devs are thinking about implementing something like bonus bloodpoints for the lesser played role when dedicated servers are live.
It's a very good idea after all.
(I can't find the old thread, sorry.)
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@Johnny_XMan What you describe are experiences with SWF groups who make big mistakes.
The problem are those SWF groups who play well. Voice com gives survivors a big advantage if they play smart.
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That indeed sounds like fun!
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I get that too many people want to play killer at the moment and therefore, queue times for killers are quite long.
However, we should be able to get instant lobbies as survivor with this scenario. But at certain times of the day, when the amount of players is the highest, you also have to wait quite some time as a survivor.
Please devs, add more servers to handle the matchmaking.
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@Orion @DocOctober Nah, have more confidence. Survivors learned to not heal, to just focus on gens and get healed by Adrenaline pretty quick after healing times got increased, for example. (I'm saying goodbye for today. I you want to continue this discussion, we have to do it another day.)
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@Orion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/548399#Comment_548399
Given that vulturous survivors are the primary reason why killers camp, this will just make it worse for the hooked survivors.
@Orion Survivors will learn quickly. And when somebody makes severe mistakes, then they are going to lose. That's just how every game goes.
Games need to be balanced around good plays, not around one team making big mistakes.
A 2nd objective for survivors would also not only help with balance, it would also bring a new impulse to the game. ^^
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@FrenziedRoach said:
Why should survivors do the second objective if doing said objective makes them die faster on the hook? It makes no damn sense.
@FrenziedRoach I don't understand. Why should a 2nd objective make survivors die faster on the hook? Where is the context?
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@Orion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/548375#Comment_548375
And yet, if you introduce the second objective and make it so the hook timer is proportionately longer, you end up right back where you started.
@Orion Only when it comes to camping. And that is fine. A camping killer will still lose the game.
But for those killers who don't camp and just need more time for their chases, a 2nd objective will make the game more balanced.
So, it's an improvement for the game.
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@Orion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/548349#Comment_548349
What's the point of the second objective if you're going to change or introduce a mechanic that puts the game exactly where it was before the second objective?
@Orion Currently it's like this: If the killer just camps, the survivors will win the game if they are smart and do their objective.
It should stay that way when a 2nd objective gets introduced.
A 2nd objective for survivors is supposed to give the killer more time for chasing survivors, not for camping to become an efficient strategy.
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@FrenziedRoach said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/548335#Comment_548335
If you increase the hook phase time without increasing the generator completion time, you take pressure off the survivors to do the rescue and they already have plenty of time as it is under the current 80s completion time 60s per phase system we have right now.
@FrenziedRoach We were talking about increasing the hook phase time when a 2nd objective gets implemented.
Not talking about increasing hook phase time at the current state of the game. Big difference.
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@Karl_Childers said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/547317#Comment_547317
Ok sure, but people need to stop suggesting second objectives then for survivors then as it nerfs this counter. Simple as that.
@Karl_Childers We have talked about this argument of yours in several threads about second objectives. Camping is not a problem, just increase the hook phase time.
Edit: To clarify, the context is: The hook phase time should only be increased when a 2nd objective gets introduced. The hook phase time should NOT be increased at the current state of the game.
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Take care! I'm confident you'll be back at some point. Until then, have a good time!
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When it comes to the Black Lock, the green map and the rainbow map should stay the same as they currently are. (With the expection that the rainbow map has 12 meters of aura reading.)
The Black Silk Cord should not have the Black Lock already tracked. You might increase the tracking range slightly from 8 and 12 meters.
Considering the other points, I'm also still standing by what I wrote earlier. ^^
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Perks can't be obligatory for the survivors to do a 2nd objective. They can be designed to help a bit, but it must absolutely be possible to do the objective without perks or items.
Cleansing 5 totems doesn't take long, especially when a survivor brings a perk as help. That's nowhere near enough the much needed additional time for the killer.
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@Johnny_XMan said:
Insta Heals aren't even that common anyway. So I don't get why it needs a "rework".
@Johnny_XMan They are commonly used even at green ranks, not starting to talk about purple and red.
Also, if something is unbalanced, it doesn't matter how often it occurs. It needs to get fixed.
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BHVR has to release cosmetics so that they can earn money and pay their employees who work on fixing bugs.
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@nichtRoxas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/545286#Comment_545286
Nah BT was once way stronger when both the unhooker and the unhooked person. It's definetly nerfed since then. It was buffed with the deep wound timer but the old BT was so much stronger.
The old Borrowed Time wasn't stronger. Yes, it protected both unhooked and unhooker, but it was one-time-use. A lot of killers stayed relatively close to the hook in the beginning of the game so that the survivors would have to waste their BT and wouldn't be able to use it at the later stages of the match.
Also, the old BT had a bleed-out timer that would continue to go down while you've gotten chased.
From a survivor's perspective, I wouldn't want old BT back.
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Map Changes: They are quite reasonable. I wouldn't show pallets, vaults, lockers only for the reason that the screen shouldn't get "overloaded" with auras. Also I wouldn't give the green map the power to track the Black Lock. That should be left to the Black Silk Cord.
Rainbow Map Changes: no auras of pallets, vaults, lockers for a better overview
Changes to Map Addendum + Yellow Wire: yes
Changes to Red Twine: Too strong, would kill NOED and TOTH. Would also indirectly reveal at the start of the match how many hex totems are used (lessens the chances to surprise survivors with the existence of Devour Hope, for example).
Black Silk Cord: Too strong. There should be a range limitation.
I agree that maps could definitely get a bit buffed.
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You know that this perk is bugged. If you still use it, then you are bug abusing/exploiting. Exploiting is against the rules and you can get banned for it.
Seriously, why do you think it would under any circumstances be okay to exploit?
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@Theluckyboi I don't agree with all of them, however some of these killer add-ons should be changed.
I also think that insta-heals are the bigger problem currently. M1 killers have to deal with 2 insta-heals per match often already at green ranks.
Also, a very important difference: Insta-heals don't require any skill at all, just like the old MoM. A Huntress still has to hit the survivors, a Nurse still has to know how to blink.
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Assuming the survivor is healthy and you don't have an insta-down attack (so that you'd only have to hit her once before she gets to the hatch) and you don't have Franklin's equipped, then no.
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That wouldn't work at all. Very often, the circumstances decide who is able to work on gens, who gets chased and who helps hooked/downed survivors.
One person can easily end up having to do more gens than others. If now a 0% mana gets in the way, the survivor team is screwed for no reason.
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The insta-heals don't have to go entirely, but they have to be changed a bit so that they can't be used in a chase.
Outside of a chase, insta-heals could still exist as a time-saver for survivors.
For example, insta-heals could be adjusted like the Brand New Part. They wouldn't give a full health stage, but maybe like 50-75% and come with several skill checks. They would still be a time saver, but hardly usable during a chase.
Edit: typo
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Cleansing totems isn't even that big of a deal. Run a perk or bring a map to help you find totems. Or play SWF and communicate.
If efficiently done, cleansing totems doesn't consume enough time to qualify as a 2nd objective for survivors. As long as you play well, you really have more than enough time to cleanse all the totems.
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You are right. Any game should be balanced around good players. And that's also how games (or even any sports) usually are balanced.
It's absolutely normal that inexperienced players should have to practice to get better.
I don't understand why the devs are so hesitant to balance around good players.
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This would be a big buff for when survivors are blocking the hook when the killer is carrying a surv and the killer has no other option than hitting them.
Imagine 2 survivors tanking hits: That would mean 4 additional seconds. Basically no chance for the killer to hook the surv anymore, if the surv doesn't go down right in front of the hook.
It's a clear no from me.
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A 2nd objective for survivors should be doable at the beginning of or during the "main part" of the match.
If the 2nd objective means spending a lot more time at the exit gates, it makes it too easy for the killer to prevent the survivors from doing their 2nd objective.
Maybe you can adjust your concept, if you'd like?
Also: How are survivors supposed to find a small item lying on the ground somewhere on the map without having any indication where it is?
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Not a good idea. It would encourage lobby dodging on both sides.
The matchmaking algorithm should get improved instead, so that there aren't any extreme cases like those you are describing.
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@Jonathanskilz said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/542825#Comment_542825
@NoShinyPony it says on the perk i gain 100% more blodpoints for coop actions thats why i used but since something is now broken with it im not gonna use it anymore since im aware
@Jonathanskilz Oh. You are thinking of the wrong perk. Prove Thyself isn't bugged.
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@xP3nnyWize It's currently similar to a 2x bloodpoint event with the gâteau offerings, and a new killer just got released that everybody wants to try out. Long queue times for killers are the consequence.
@ad19970 Yes, it would absolutely make sense to remove the 8k bloodpoint cap per category (while keeping the overall cap of 32k).
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If killers really aren't in a chase, I don't think this change would be relevant.
I see the problem with those situations when there actually IS a chase, but it doesn't get recognized as a chase, for example cloaked Wraith.
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@Jed_Olsen said:
@Dehitay ,
I would hardly call it a reward. Why not challenge yourself and go for someone else. I play a lot of killer and rarely resort to camping or tunneling, only if they're being toxic AF or there's 1 gen 4 survs. Its not that hard to get a 4k without camping and tunnelling. You will get better at the game also in the long run
I mean do people here play to have fun? Or play to ruin other peoples experience? I'm curious
@Jed_Olsen Since you say it's not hard to get a 4k without tunneling or camping: Would you tell us which killers you are playing and on which rank?
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@Jonathanskilz Why do you keep saying that you use this perk for more bloodpoints? This perk never gave any bonus bloodpoints.
Also, now you know that this perk is bugged. If you still use it, you are knowingly bug abusing.
You are basically asking if you can exploit as long as the devs don't make an official anouncement. The answer is easy: Exploiting is not allowed. Don't do it.
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@Jonathanskilz said:
I use that perk so i can get more blodpoints can i still use the perk or how does it work can anyone tell me plez
@Jonathanskilz What are you telling us? That perk doesn't give more bloodpoints.
And of course you can't use the perk when you know that it is bugged.
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@Pike_Trickfoot Please don't forget the "@" tag so the people you're replying to will get a notification. ;)
Concerning the map changes: Take a look at the Pig's Billy Boxes or the small fountains of the Plague. There are offerings that let additional chests and hooks spawns. Or even think of last year's Halloween event and the big wobble blobs. All that is possible without having a severe impact on the map design.
Concerning changing loops and/or buffing killers so that it will lead to shorter chases: I'm not saying that it won't help the killers to get their objective done. I'm saying that chases are the fun part of the game and when you shorten the fun part, this will hurt the game.
On another note: If you want to rework all the maps, we are probably talking about several years until this is done. In comparison, a 2nd objective could be implemented relatively quickly because the code is partly already existing.
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Congrats! To a lot more fun hours with DbD! ^^
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@Pike_Trickfoot How will a 2nd objective necessarily change map design?
For example, if a 2nd objective follows the concept of "pick something up and bring it to the gen before you can start repairing": How does that change the design of the map?
Sorry if I overread something, where did you make a suggestion how to fix the problem of killers not having enough time in the current state of the game?
If you want to shorten chases/survivors to go down faster, that's your opinion. I shared my opinion why it's not a good idea to shorten chases and that DbD would lose players.
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@HatCreature I see it similarly.
A 2nd objective has to be obligatory and should give a killer that bit of needed additional time. (I mean, we could always increase gen time, it would have the same effect. But we aren't talking about that because repairing gens is not exciting.)
With that bit of extra time, we don't need a lot of adjustments. (I'm not saying that we don't need any at all, but there wouldn't be a lot to change.)
And I agree with the base concept of bringing something to the gen before you can repair it. I leave a link to my concept here: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/65083/concept-for-a-2nd-objective-for-survivors/p1
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@Atrushan88 said:
@NoShinyPony I mean there are ways that they could balance it to where the killer didn't have it super easy(separating at least one gen far enough away from the other two so that you could make progress as an example, though I'm sure there are other possibilities), and 3-4 people could still get on one gen, do it, and then one to two more gens would open up. You pretty much HAVE to do the middle gen in Lery's for example either way. Also with the 3 gen strat(if it came to this) that early in the game, it wouldn't matter. The killer would eventually be preoccupied with whoever he found and if he downed someone it'd be their first hook. It wouldn't be like at the end of the game where there are only 3 gens left and he can just protect them forever while people are on their last hook. If there are still 4 people in the match, one of the gens is gonna get done once he finds and starts chasing someone.
@Atrushan88 So if the gens have enough distance to each other, how is that supposed to change anything for the killer? The killer can only chase one person at a time, while the other survs are doing gens.
Finding a survivor usually isn't the problem. The problem is that gens are done too fast while the killer is busy chasing a survivor.
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@Pike_Trickfoot said:
@NoShinyPony I get what you’re saying, but something doesn’t quite sit well. I’m still trying to think of why. Maybe because if you changed both the maps and the killers, it doesn’t have to shorten chases? Especially since there are other factors like perks/additions can be made to help survivors/etc.... Like shorter chases can get compensation elsewhere within the game. I’m just putting stuff out there, not sure ignore it’s actually what I mean to explain.
@Pike_Trickfoot The issue of this thread is: Currently, killers don't have enough time to get their objective done - do we need a 2nd objective for survs?
If you don't shorten chases, then the survivors have to do more than repairing 5 gens.
If you keep chases the same length AND don't give the survivors more work to do, then nothing will change for the killer.
This is not a thread about map design.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/539769#Comment_539769
@NoShinyPony oh of course, but killers need to get better at determining when it’s not sensible to engage in a chase
@DudeDelicious That kind of gameplay means matches that can easily last 30 minutes and more. For the big majority of players, such gameplay is boring.
(Also, I still want to see how you beat a team of very good survivors with that tactic. Let me know when you upload something new to your channel. ^^ )
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@Atrushan88 Cleansing totems doesn't take a lot of time. When I play SWF, usually one person is responsible for taking care of totems. It's not enough additional time for the killers to get their job done. Also, as you said, it's not an obligatory objective anyway.
I don't like the idea with the gen blockers. If the survivors could permanently only work at 3 gens before the others become accessible, you get those unfun 3-gen-scenarios that lead to 30-minute-and-more matches.
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@GrootDude said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/538806#Comment_538806
But if low ranks aren’t having fun then they’ll quit. The game has to be balanced for everyone some how.
@GrootDude You can't balance for bad and good players at the same time. Games are balanced for good players. And those players who aren't good have to practice to get better. That's just how games or even sports in general work.
Also, don't underestimate the current state of the game. Two days ago, playing solo surv at purple ranks, I got matched several times with yellow ranks. These guys weren't good loopers and went down pretty fast, but they knew already that they had to do gens as fast as possible. Nobody ragequitted, did a severe mistake like yolo saving or got downed next to another downed survivor. That was already enough to get the exit gates open every match.