Mister_xD
Mister_xD
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@Raccoon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2973149#Comment_2973149
With FD or LB they can always get an item/light in a chest.
I guess so, but that seems like we're stretching it a bit there.
It's very unrealistic at the very least, so you're going to have a lot more games where the Perk would end up being 100% useless than games where you do get usage from it.
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Genrush = The Survivors focussing down gens over anything else. No Totems, no Chests, no Healing sometimes even no Unhooking just to be as quick on gens as possible.
Genrush =/= efficiently doing Generators. Just because the Survivors were quick on doing gens, does not mean they were genrushing. Its much more likely that the Killer was lacking map pressure instead - whether that be due to misplays or bad RNG (like Clown on Yamaoka) doesn't matter.
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ok
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Yeah I am definitely waiting with my possible return until the announced Meta changes go through.
In case you haven't heard, the Devs recently announced major changes to the Meta, which includes around 40 Perk reworks / changes for both sides.
Personally I won't bother with the game until those make it through and are good, it just isn't fun.
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Sadako by a very long shot. Her condemned takes way too long to build up and is extremely easy to remove, making it barely a threat at all. You'd need an entire build (and a good map) centered entirely around this mechanic to get at least some usage from it.
Nemesis Zombies are idiots, but they do go and harass Survivors when Nemesis is away, making gen repairs with one around very sluggish and giving Nemesis some tracking abilities (they waddle towards noise, plus you get to see when they enter their chase animation).
Pyramid Heads Torment is actually very strong. It allows him to bypass any hook defence related Perks and abilities, so once Tormented it enables him to basically tunnel you out of the Trial: Hook, then Cage to bypass DS, then tunnel off Cage since DS and BT don't activate off of Cages.
Cenobites Box gives you a passive bonus by having someone solve it - that being said Survivor not being on gens and instead wasting their time doing this Box instead. So even if you don't get a Chainhunt going, you still got some usage from it.
Pigs Reverse Beartraps are receiving a very nice buff in the upcomming chapter, which gives them a lot more consistency across the board (the Survivor team has to make 12 searches to get all their traps off now, so on average the Key is in the 3rd Box). Currently the only way her Traps are as useless as Sadakos Condemned is by having all Traps removed on 1st or 2nd Box, which is purely RNG - so she isnt as consistently bad as Sadako.
Freddies Dreamworld enables him access to his Dream Traps, which make him quite a decent anti loop Killer, so it's not very useless.
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This is, by far, the worst challenge they ever made IMO.
It is sickening to see it return.
I had to throw so many games just to try and get this stupid challenge done... ugh ._.
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@Raccoon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2972839#Comment_2972839
I thought this was an obvious flaw, as well.
It's why I mentioned the 3v16 bit.
Would this be the first perk ever added that could have 0% chance to activate from the Lobby screen onwards?
Not quite, there are some Perks that can be 100% useless to you throughout the trial, such as Franklyns Demise or Lightborn.
However, it is the first Perk that can be 100% useless to you based on a gamble that you have to take. Perks such as Lightborn are based on Items, which can be seen by the Killer prior to the game starting, so they can be used as a counter tool by the Killer when they know the Survivors have certain equipment (and be useless outside of those scenarios), but the Killer can not see their Perks, meaning they can not know if the Survivors have a Boon or not, which makes equipping the Perk not a counter to something they have, but a gamble on something they might have.
And this is problematic for the Killer, as, like you said, we have a 4 VS 16 Perks scenario, meaning the Killer does not have enough ressources to waste on weak things / to take a gamble like this.
Now some might point to Hex: No One Escapes Death as another example of the Killer taking a gamble - and that is true, but even if NOED never activates, the Killer still got some usage out of it with the Survivors wasting at least a bit of their time throughout the early- to midgame cleansing Dull Totems.
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@Zeidoktor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2972554#Comment_2972554
It does give aura reading if a survivor was in the Boon's range when you snuffed it
That doesnt help me if there are no Boons in the first place though.
It needs to have an effect that the Killer can get to work even if no Boons are in play, thats the poing I was making.
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They already created the Perk, so making is basekit is out of the question now.
Instead i think the Perk needs to be changed to have another effect, with the totem breaking only being a secondary bonus, so you get to have usage from the Perk no matter what.
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@AetherBytes said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2971345#Comment_2971345
whats demo listed as
Nothing anymore, as its achievemts were removed together with the DLC when BHVR lost the Stranger Things license last year.
Demodoggo too used to be refered to as "it" though ^^
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I know I am late to the party (apologies for that), but I'll drop you a link to a discussion I made about this around the time this originally came out - it goes into great detail on why the game is as it is right now, reasons for decisions made by the Devs that seem unlogical, as well as presenting a (possible) way to fix this issue.
@Mister_xD said:
Prologue
Hello everyone,
First of all, this is not actually a post that I really wanted to make. As some of you will probaply know, I no longer play this game, so my enthusiasm for it has dwindled too. I have just not been having the motivation to make a long post like this one for a long while now, though I did write down the thoughts from this post in earlier comments already, just in a less detailed form.
Ever since i quit DbD in August 2021, I have been reflecting on why I quit and after discovering the reasons, decided to dig a bit deeper and find the reasons for those reasons. And I do think that I managed to figure out an issue this game has that I barely see anyone talk about, yet sooo many things people do talk about and discuss end up being direct consequences of this one, bigger thing.
So I did decide to make this post eventually, simply to shed some light onto what I believe to be, by far, Dead by Daylights biggest problem right now. The "root of all evil", if you will.
Also I am not saying this was DbD's only issue, there are some others that are very much seperated from this one that are important too (e.g. the discrepancy in strength between solo Survivors and SWF groups), but I believe this one to have the biggest impact on the game as of right now. And do keep in mind that this is my opinion, it is very possible that some of you might view other things as more important issues than this one.
The Issue
I'll be straight forward and tell you the problem right away:
The Survivors objective is unfun and boring.
Now before you go in the comments and start calling me crazy, please read my reasoning for this being DbDs biggest issue first. It is a lot more complicated than this one sentence might make it look like.
How to balance an asymmetrical game
I know this might seem off topic, but trust me, this is very important for later.
Dead by Daylight can be split into two seperate "games":
- The "Macrogame" (referring to the overall trial and its progression)
- The "Microgame" (referring to interactions between both sides)
The way we can create a balanced experience for both sides is, by making each side dominate on of those two cathegories, but as a result of that be weak in the other.
Essentially, this game boils down to both sides racing each other by pushing their strong suit and hoping that they can finish their objective before the other side has been able to finish theirs.
Due to this being an asymmetrical game, the side that has less players in one round (Killers) needs to be the dominant side in the Microgame, while the opposing side (Survivors) gets to dominate the Macrogame.
This makes sense, given the Survivors superior numbers that allow them to apply pressure on the Killer in multiple different locations, which the Killer can not contest due to them only being able to be in one place at a time.
To make this fair for the Killer, they need to have the upper hand in this 1v1 interaction, so that they don't waste much time on this one Survivor and can instead go and pressure the team after dealing with them quickly. This is also why they are referred to as "the powerrole", even though they themselves arent any more powerful than the Survivor side is, but they feel very powerful due to the fact that they heavily outclass an individual Survivor.
In other words, a balanced Dead by Daylight would be a game where Killers dominate in chases, whereas Survivors dominate in generator progression, with the deciding factor being who can be more efficient in "their game" of DbD and outperform the other side.
How the Issue affects DbD's balance
In a balanced Dead by Daylight, as discussed above, long chases do not exist. Killers dominate in this aspect, so Survivors will want to avoid chases altogether, focussing their gameplay on generators.
But generators are no fun. No one wants to focus their entire gameplay on holding M1 and occasionally hitting space bar - understandably so.
If this game were to ever be in a balanced state, Survivors would be the ones quitting out of boredom. And since Survivors are just as essential to this game as Killers are, while also making a majority of its playerbase simply because of the 4v1 nature of this game, this would be very bad news.
This is also something that I believe the Devs are very aware of. They have stated multiple times in the past now that they have no intention of balancing Dead by Daylight to make it fair, but to make it "fun".
But what does that mean exactly?
What is the one thing you think of when you talk about "fun" in Dead by Daylight? - It's chases.
Chases are a fast and easy way of bringing action into this, otherwise very boring, game. They are full of fast paced interactions between both sides and you need to think on the run to make the right call in order to avoid certain death at the Killers hands.
As a result the Devs have started balancing DbD around chases - some people might even refer to chases as Dead by Daylight in its entirety, completely forgetting that there is more to it outside of them.
While this is a very understandable decision made by the Devs, it is also one that brings major imbalances with it.
The result(s)
Due to the Devs focussing their resources on making chases a fair, interactive and balanced encounter for both sides, Killers feel very weak to play.
Remember what I said earlier about how to balance an asymmetrical game - Survivors need to dominate in the Macrogame, while Killers need to dominate in the Microgame.
But this is no longer the case. The reality of DbD is, that Survivors dominate the Killer in the Macrogame, as they were designed to, and are equal to them in the Microgame, while on the flip side Killers get dominated in the Macrogame, as they should, but are only equal to Survivors in the Microgame.
By balancing this game around the 1v1 aspect of it, the Devs took away the Killers strongsuit. Killers now struggle immensly to compete with Survivors, especially since those Survivors can hardly be nerfed in their strongsuit, due to that being a direct result of their superior numbers. Simply put Killers can not end their chases quick enough to properly race Survivors who focus on generatos, meaning any time the Survivor team is working on generators efficiently the Killer will most likely lose.
As a result the game becomes frustrating to its Killer playerbase, because any time they go up against a team of Survivors with an equal skilllevel to theirs, they are heavily outclassed simply due to this game being tilted in the Survivors favor as much as it is.
For Killers to be able to win, they need to be on a higher skilllevel than the Survivors are, so that the Killer makes less mistakes than the Survivors and can punish their mistakes more efficiently.
And this leads us to a very modern problem, namely that this essentially rules out the existance of MMR systems in a game like this - at least functional ones.
There are two possible outcomes with an MMR system in DbD right now:
- The system works and puts players of equal skill against each other. In this case Killers are heavily outmatched and will lose a majority of their games (unless Survivors make a huge, game losing, mistake, but for the sake of the argument we have to assume both sides play equally well), which feels unfair and bad for the Killers. Additionally, the high end Survivors would have no opponents, because Killers can not compete at this stage, which results in very long lobby queue times for them.
- The system doesnt work and puts players of varying skill against one another. In this case Killers would get to fight lesser experienced players as well, which allows them to win those games, which feels unfair and bad for those Survivors, as they feel outmatched.
This means no matter what happens, this is a lose-lose scenario. This is also why I keep saying that the most basic requirement for a functional MMR system is a balanced game, which DbD can not (and will probaply never) offer.
Another very common complaint by the Killerplayerbase today is, that gens are completed too fast. That however is not actually the case, it's that they are too slow at killing the Survivors.
And as I explained above, this is essentially an unfixable problem. There are two possible solutions to it, which equally don't work:
- Make Killers the strong chasers they are supposed to be to be able to rival the gen speeds - this one turns Survivor gameplay into a hold M1 simulator, making it extremely unfun for them to play.
- Make gens take longer to complete - this one makes Survivors sit on gens, holding down M1, even longer than they already have to, at which point no one is having fun anymore because of how sluggish the game has become.
Both of these fail entirely at the non interactive nature of generators.
And there are more, but we would still be here tomorrow if I went into detail on all of them, so I'll make it short. Here is a list of other issues that are directly linked to this one with a brief explanation:
- Maps having too many timewasters for Killers on them or generally not allowing for much map pressure (Pallets and Windows are what Survivors have to have fun in chases, to maximise fun and fairness in chases we need a bunch of them and make it so whoever mindgames who wins)
- A vast majority of the Killer roster being unviable in high level play (only viable options are Killers with strong chase related abilities to at least sometimes put Survivors in a lose-lose situation they can profit from, who also have good map pressure to fight generator speeds - e.g. Nurse and Blight)
- Killers getting nerfed who did not need a nerf (strong chase ability = unfun match for Survivors, therefore they get nerfed. This is what happened to Deathslinger or the Twins Toy Sword Add On)
- Killers being forced to run a bunch of slowdown Perks (essentially a futile attempt to force solution 2. from gens being done too fast. As explained above it makes the game miserably boring for Survivors, but is a necessary evil currently)
- Camping & Tunneling being such popular strategies (eliminating one player early on makes the Survivor teams overall map pressure take a huge hit, which can allow the Killer to relax a bit more. Not doing this is pretty much a lost trial. This is a result of gen speeds, which are a result of their unfun nature)
- Playing Killer being significantly more stressful than playing Survivor (you essentially have to play perfect to beat even just a mediocre team. The smallest mistake can cost you the entire game, due to a chase being extended too long and you therefore getting crushed in the Macrogame)
While not all of those might be a direct result of generators being boring, they are all linked to it in some way. Basically, the boring nature of gens caused the Devs flawed balance philosophy, which is what stops us from properly addressing those issues.
If we ever want to properly fix those problems, we need to address generators first. If we don't, all we achieve is trading one problematic thing for another.
What is the Solution?
A complete rework of the Survivors main objective.
We need to get rid of the excruciatingly boring gameplay that is holding down M1 while waiting for a progress bar to fill up - and this is not exclusive to generators by the way, all of the Survivors objectives are this boring, whether that be exit gate switches, totems (cleansing and blessing), healing, chest searching - they are all the same.
Of course these progress bars serve a purpose. These objectives are meant to be timewasters first and foremost, it is necessary that the Survivors spend a good amount of their time on doing them to allow the Killer to find and hunt them down.
So a reworked Survivor objective would need to be both time consuming and interactive for them at the same time.
It is not until this is achieved that we can properly address so many of the other, much more noticeable, issues that plague this game today.
This being said, personally I don't think this is a realistic demand to make.
Generators are one of the most fundamental mechanics in this game and they have existed for almost 6 years at this point without any major changes to them and with a total of 27 DLCs (some bigger than others ofc) that further change the game and, in many cases, directly rely on this mechanic or further add to it.
There are Perks on both sides directly tied to generator progress bars and there are some Killer powers that also rely on Survivors being on gens (such as Freddies teleport or the Doctors Madness Skill Checks) that would need to be addressed if gens were to be fundamentally reworked.
This absolutely does not mean it was impossible to address, however it would require a huge amount of time, ressources and effort from BHVRs side.
And I mean this when I say it, but I definitely think that at this point it would be easier for them to just work on a Dead by Daylight 2 and redesign it from the ground up with this in mind, rather than to try and somehow fix the current game (also due to spaghetti code that further hinders this).
However, I would definitely not mind being proven wrong on this. Though it would be a long and tedious process, I believe the game would greatly benefit from it in the long run.
And they can start small, not tackle the whole thing at once, but maybe start by doing one thing and see how it plays out. For example, rework the Exit Gates to no longer require you to hold M1 next to the switch until a progress bar is filled, but make it require fuses that the Survivors need to collect and insert - each fuse lights up one bulb and 3 fuses open the gate up. It would be significantly more interactive for both sides and it would get rid of people 99%ing the gates (another common complaint you hear a lot). You can also do something entirely different, the most important thing is that something is done.
Afterword
Thanks for reading this, admittedly very long, post. Might be my longest one yet, its definitely the one I put the most work into.
What do you think of this? Do you think I'm right? Or do you think I'm entirely wrong? Did i miss anything crucial? Please tell me down below!
Also please keep in mind this post is not meant to give solutions to this issue, but soley to highlight it - though if you think you got a good sulution to it you can share it down below too / make your own post about it! The more ideas we can give the Devs on this the better. I also deliberately did not post it in the Feedback subforum, as it is not meant to be feedback to the Devs, but as a bit of an explanation to where I believe the game stands right now and why certain things are happening to it for the community - as stated above, I do believe the Devs are very keenly aware of this issue already (and have been for a long time now).
Have a nice day / night and I'll see you next time!
also revert the Slinger nerfs, k thx bye.
It's a long read, though I think it'll be worth your time.
TL;DR: Gens are the big issue. Unfun Survivor objecive = Devs balancing around sthg else (that being chases) = imbalanced game with Killers barely standing a chance.
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@bm33 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2971345#Comment_2971345
Demogorgon used to have an achievement that referred to Demo as "it" too 😔
Yeah... :(
I hope our Demodoggo can return to us some day :(
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It (which is how I refer to it) is a fusion of an unknown quantity of both men and women, not one destinctive entity / person, meaning its gender / sex is quite literally impossible to determine.
Also it is referred to as "it" by the DbD achievements - with, fun fact, the only other Killer being referred to in this manner being the Shape, everyone else is labled as "he" or "she".
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@Sonzaishinai said:
People really have a bad grasp on just how many people play this game huh?
Even if every forum member here stopped playing killer it would not make a difference.
That they added bp bonusses for the struggling queues can be chalked up to the survivor killer ratio being off.
Thinking other changes are affected much by this is pretty silly
You know what achieves even less than OPs suggestion?
Not doing anything and just accepting everything as it is "because I can't change it anyway".
And say what you want, but the fact that a bunch of really good announcements / changes were made recently is 100% due to a large amount of players (me included) leaving this game in favor of other, actual fun, games.
And what is there even to lose? In a worst case scenario OP and some others will stop doing something they didn't enjoy anyway, while in a best case scenario they actually manage to bring change to this game and push it in a more healthy direction that everyone will benefit from.
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Seeing someone play Deathslinger.
Seriously, why? Just... just play Huntress. She is the same gameplay wise but better in pretty much every way possible!
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This genuinely makes me happy!
One of my biggest issues with Pig was the inconsistency of her power due to RNG and knowing that this has indeed been addressed to bring some actual consistency in that both Killer and Survivors can plan and play around is incredible news!
Thank you.
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@JonahsTablet said:
This community is cursed now, it was not supposed to be like this, clearly we are in a terrible alternate universe.
this was always meant to be.
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No.
Do people actually do that? Like, I've never heard about this being a thing before...
I do however occasionally do it, if I suspect them to be a troll - so about once or twice a year xD
Anyway, if anyone actually does do this, then they are going to have a nice evening with my profile, considering not just the amount but also not unusually large length of my posts xD
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@Mister_xD said:
Prologue
Hello everyone,
First of all, this is not actually a post that I really wanted to make. As some of you will probaply know, I no longer play this game, so my enthusiasm for it has dwindled too. I have just not been having the motivation to make a long post like this one for a long while now, though I did write down the thoughts from this post in earlier comments already, just in a less detailed form.
Ever since i quit DbD in August 2021, I have been reflecting on why I quit and after discovering the reasons, decided to dig a bit deeper and find the reasons for those reasons. And I do think that I managed to figure out an issue this game has that I barely see anyone talk about, yet sooo many things people do talk about and discuss end up being direct consequences of this one, bigger thing.
So I did decide to make this post eventually, simply to shed some light onto what I believe to be, by far, Dead by Daylights biggest problem right now. The "root of all evil", if you will.
Also I am not saying this was DbD's only issue, there are some others that are very much seperated from this one that are important too (e.g. the discrepancy in strength between solo Survivors and SWF groups), but I believe this one to have the biggest impact on the game as of right now. And do keep in mind that this is my opinion, it is very possible that some of you might view other things as more important issues than this one.
The Issue
I'll be straight forward and tell you the problem right away:
The Survivors objective is unfun and boring.
Now before you go in the comments and start calling me crazy, please read my reasoning for this being DbDs biggest issue first. It is a lot more complicated than this one sentence might make it look like.
How to balance an asymmetrical game
I know this might seem off topic, but trust me, this is very important for later.
Dead by Daylight can be split into two seperate "games":
- The "Macrogame" (referring to the overall trial and its progression)
- The "Microgame" (referring to interactions between both sides)
The way we can create a balanced experience for both sides is, by making each side dominate on of those two cathegories, but as a result of that be weak in the other.
Essentially, this game boils down to both sides racing each other by pushing their strong suit and hoping that they can finish their objective before the other side has been able to finish theirs.
Due to this being an asymmetrical game, the side that has less players in one round (Killers) needs to be the dominant side in the Microgame, while the opposing side (Survivors) gets to dominate the Macrogame.
This makes sense, given the Survivors superior numbers that allow them to apply pressure on the Killer in multiple different locations, which the Killer can not contest due to them only being able to be in one place at a time.
To make this fair for the Killer, they need to have the upper hand in this 1v1 interaction, so that they don't waste much time on this one Survivor and can instead go and pressure the team after dealing with them quickly. This is also why they are referred to as "the powerrole", even though they themselves arent any more powerful than the Survivor side is, but they feel very powerful due to the fact that they heavily outclass an individual Survivor.
In other words, a balanced Dead by Daylight would be a game where Killers dominate in chases, whereas Survivors dominate in generator progression, with the deciding factor being who can be more efficient in "their game" of DbD and outperform the other side.
How the Issue affects DbD's balance
In a balanced Dead by Daylight, as discussed above, long chases do not exist. Killers dominate in this aspect, so Survivors will want to avoid chases altogether, focussing their gameplay on generators.
But generators are no fun. No one wants to focus their entire gameplay on holding M1 and occasionally hitting space bar - understandably so.
If this game were to ever be in a balanced state, Survivors would be the ones quitting out of boredom. And since Survivors are just as essential to this game as Killers are, while also making a majority of its playerbase simply because of the 4v1 nature of this game, this would be very bad news.
This is also something that I believe the Devs are very aware of. They have stated multiple times in the past now that they have no intention of balancing Dead by Daylight to make it fair, but to make it "fun".
But what does that mean exactly?
What is the one thing you think of when you talk about "fun" in Dead by Daylight? - It's chases.
Chases are a fast and easy way of bringing action into this, otherwise very boring, game. They are full of fast paced interactions between both sides and you need to think on the run to make the right call in order to avoid certain death at the Killers hands.
As a result the Devs have started balancing DbD around chases - some people might even refer to chases as Dead by Daylight in its entirety, completely forgetting that there is more to it outside of them.
While this is a very understandable decision made by the Devs, it is also one that brings major imbalances with it.
The result(s)
Due to the Devs focussing their resources on making chases a fair, interactive and balanced encounter for both sides, Killers feel very weak to play.
Remember what I said earlier about how to balance an asymmetrical game - Survivors need to dominate in the Macrogame, while Killers need to dominate in the Microgame.
But this is no longer the case. The reality of DbD is, that Survivors dominate the Killer in the Macrogame, as they were designed to, and are equal to them in the Microgame, while on the flip side Killers get dominated in the Macrogame, as they should, but are only equal to Survivors in the Microgame.
By balancing this game around the 1v1 aspect of it, the Devs took away the Killers strongsuit. Killers now struggle immensly to compete with Survivors, especially since those Survivors can hardly be nerfed in their strongsuit, due to that being a direct result of their superior numbers. Simply put Killers can not end their chases quick enough to properly race Survivors who focus on generatos, meaning any time the Survivor team is working on generators efficiently the Killer will most likely lose.
As a result the game becomes frustrating to its Killer playerbase, because any time they go up against a team of Survivors with an equal skilllevel to theirs, they are heavily outclassed simply due to this game being tilted in the Survivors favor as much as it is.
For Killers to be able to win, they need to be on a higher skilllevel than the Survivors are, so that the Killer makes less mistakes than the Survivors and can punish their mistakes more efficiently.
And this leads us to a very modern problem, namely that this essentially rules out the existance of MMR systems in a game like this - at least functional ones.
There are two possible outcomes with an MMR system in DbD right now:
- The system works and puts players of equal skill against each other. In this case Killers are heavily outmatched and will lose a majority of their games (unless Survivors make a huge, game losing, mistake, but for the sake of the argument we have to assume both sides play equally well), which feels unfair and bad for the Killers. Additionally, the high end Survivors would have no opponents, because Killers can not compete at this stage, which results in very long lobby queue times for them.
- The system doesnt work and puts players of varying skill against one another. In this case Killers would get to fight lesser experienced players as well, which allows them to win those games, which feels unfair and bad for those Survivors, as they feel outmatched.
This means no matter what happens, this is a lose-lose scenario. This is also why I keep saying that the most basic requirement for a functional MMR system is a balanced game, which DbD can not (and will probaply never) offer.
Another very common complaint by the Killerplayerbase today is, that gens are completed too fast. That however is not actually the case, it's that they are too slow at killing the Survivors.
And as I explained above, this is essentially an unfixable problem. There are two possible solutions to it, which equally don't work:
- Make Killers the strong chasers they are supposed to be to be able to rival the gen speeds - this one turns Survivor gameplay into a hold M1 simulator, making it extremely unfun for them to play.
- Make gens take longer to complete - this one makes Survivors sit on gens, holding down M1, even longer than they already have to, at which point no one is having fun anymore because of how sluggish the game has become.
Both of these fail entirely at the non interactive nature of generators.
And there are more, but we would still be here tomorrow if I went into detail on all of them, so I'll make it short. Here is a list of other issues that are directly linked to this one with a brief explanation:
- Maps having too many timewasters for Killers on them or generally not allowing for much map pressure (Pallets and Windows are what Survivors have to have fun in chases, to maximise fun and fairness in chases we need a bunch of them and make it so whoever mindgames who wins)
- A vast majority of the Killer roster being unviable in high level play (only viable options are Killers with strong chase related abilities to at least sometimes put Survivors in a lose-lose situation they can profit from, who also have good map pressure to fight generator speeds - e.g. Nurse and Blight)
- Killers getting nerfed who did not need a nerf (strong chase ability = unfun match for Survivors, therefore they get nerfed. This is what happened to Deathslinger or the Twins Toy Sword Add On)
- Killers being forced to run a bunch of slowdown Perks (essentially a futile attempt to force solution 2. from gens being done too fast. As explained above it makes the game miserably boring for Survivors, but is a necessary evil currently)
- Camping & Tunneling being such popular strategies (eliminating one player early on makes the Survivor teams overall map pressure take a huge hit, which can allow the Killer to relax a bit more. Not doing this is pretty much a lost trial. This is a result of gen speeds, which are a result of their unfun nature)
- Playing Killer being significantly more stressful than playing Survivor (you essentially have to play perfect to beat even just a mediocre team. The smallest mistake can cost you the entire game, due to a chase being extended too long and you therefore getting crushed in the Macrogame)
While not all of those might be a direct result of generators being boring, they are all linked to it in some way. Basically, the boring nature of gens caused the Devs flawed balance philosophy, which is what stops us from properly addressing those issues.
If we ever want to properly fix those problems, we need to address generators first. If we don't, all we achieve is trading one problematic thing for another.
What is the Solution?
A complete rework of the Survivors main objective.
We need to get rid of the excruciatingly boring gameplay that is holding down M1 while waiting for a progress bar to fill up - and this is not exclusive to generators by the way, all of the Survivors objectives are this boring, whether that be exit gate switches, totems (cleansing and blessing), healing, chest searching - they are all the same.
Of course these progress bars serve a purpose. These objectives are meant to be timewasters first and foremost, it is necessary that the Survivors spend a good amount of their time on doing them to allow the Killer to find and hunt them down.
So a reworked Survivor objective would need to be both time consuming and interactive for them at the same time.
It is not until this is achieved that we can properly address so many of the other, much more noticeable, issues that plague this game today.
This being said, personally I don't think this is a realistic demand to make.
Generators are one of the most fundamental mechanics in this game and they have existed for almost 6 years at this point without any major changes to them and with a total of 27 DLCs (some bigger than others ofc) that further change the game and, in many cases, directly rely on this mechanic or further add to it.
There are Perks on both sides directly tied to generator progress bars and there are some Killer powers that also rely on Survivors being on gens (such as Freddies teleport or the Doctors Madness Skill Checks) that would need to be addressed if gens were to be fundamentally reworked.
This absolutely does not mean it was impossible to address, however it would require a huge amount of time, ressources and effort from BHVRs side.
And I mean this when I say it, but I definitely think that at this point it would be easier for them to just work on a Dead by Daylight 2 and redesign it from the ground up with this in mind, rather than to try and somehow fix the current game (also due to spaghetti code that further hinders this).
However, I would definitely not mind being proven wrong on this. Though it would be a long and tedious process, I believe the game would greatly benefit from it in the long run.
And they can start small, not tackle the whole thing at once, but maybe start by doing one thing and see how it plays out. For example, rework the Exit Gates to no longer require you to hold M1 next to the switch until a progress bar is filled, but make it require fuses that the Survivors need to collect and insert - each fuse lights up one bulb and 3 fuses open the gate up. It would be significantly more interactive for both sides and it would get rid of people 99%ing the gates (another common complaint you hear a lot). You can also do something entirely different, the most important thing is that something is done.
Afterword
Thanks for reading this, admittedly very long, post. Might be my longest one yet, its definitely the one I put the most work into.
What do you think of this? Do you think I'm right? Or do you think I'm entirely wrong? Did i miss anything crucial? Please tell me down below!
Also please keep in mind this post is not meant to give solutions to this issue, but soley to highlight it - though if you think you got a good sulution to it you can share it down below too / make your own post about it! The more ideas we can give the Devs on this the better. I also deliberately did not post it in the Feedback subforum, as it is not meant to be feedback to the Devs, but as a bit of an explanation to where I believe the game stands right now and why certain things are happening to it for the community - as stated above, I do believe the Devs are very keenly aware of this issue already (and have been for a long time now).
Have a nice day / night and I'll see you next time!
also revert the Slinger nerfs, k thx bye.
a combination of all the above.
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Its a lore based thing for me, but i think the craziest theory ive had about DbD is that we (as the player) are actually the Entity.
My argumentation for it was something along the lines of "When we play Killer we see everything from a 1st person view, so it's like we see everything from the characters eyes, we are directly playing as them. It's like we have taken over their mind and now are them for the duration of the trial, much like the Entity did. But its different for Survivors, we see everything from a 3rd person perspective. We are not playig as the characters themselves, we do not see through their eyes. Instead its like we are watching them and telling them what to do, like a voice in their ear or something."
I actually still think it makes some sense - the Killers are just puppets used by the entity to hunt down the Survivors, however the Survivors themselves are their own individual beings. The Entity needs them to stay that way in order to be able to feast on their hope and once they are broken, much like the Killers, they are discarded into the void.
Though this is something I came up with in like 2017, so I don't know my entire line of thought anymore. I just have the important parts in the back of my mind.
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@dictep said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2965687#Comment_2965687
Nah, they should give noed the same love they give to MoM
First and foremost, what @DrDeepwound said is correct. Hex: No one Escapes Death is one of the Perks with the longest change history in the whole game, mostly nerfs at that.
And it actually did go through the exact same journey that old Mettle of Man went through: it started out as a Perk that just passively activated with a gamechanging effect that had no counterplay to it whatsoever and is now in a spot where said effect is bound to Totems, which allows counterplay from the Survivor side - just like they bound MoM's effect to protection hits to allow for counterplay from the Killerside.
And secondly, due to this previous change history, current NOED is not at all comparable to MoM anymore. Comparing the two is like comparing apples with oranges, it doesn't work. And pick rates have absolutely nothing to do with this, I really dont know why you decided to bring that up.
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I think a better way to address this whole NOED situation is not by nerfing the Perk itself, but by changing the way Dull Totems work slightly to help newer players and solo Survivors to deal with them easier.
I think we should have a distinct noise notification play for every player when the last Totem has been cleansed.
This would have two big effects on solo Survivors and newer players:
- when the sound plays, they now know not to waste any more time trying to locate Totems anymore
- for as long as the sound has not played, they know that there is at least one Totem remaining on the map, meaning NOED is a possibility
Both of these are information SWF groups have access to anyway, so this would also help bringing solo Survivors and SWF groups closer together.
A rework for NOED is something that, if it is done right, I can definitely get behind, but IMO such a rework should not make the Perk any weaker than it currently is - but more fair (for both sides) by having its strength vary based on how many Totems remain on the map with the Perk active.
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Billy needed the Add On pass.
His old Add Ons were insanely strong and things like instasaw Billy were extremely unfair to go up against.
That said, his basekit was perfectly fine. Any change made to that, this includes Overheat and the Roar, should be reverted.
Then on the other hand, we're talking about the Devs here that would rather have a Killer that literally no one plays than a balanced one. Just look what they did to Deathslinger and Wraith with a complete refusal to revert those changes - despite the community pretty much unanimously agreeing that they were unnecessary, unfair and / or way too harsh.
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Insidious.
I want it to be turned into a reverse OoO, but for the Killer instead of being a Perk purely for camping.
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@Nathan13 said:
With the upcoming changes this game is gonna get, I think we’re gonna get a lot of players back. DBD is not gonna die.
that depends a lot on how they implement them, but if the meta changes they announced are going to be good, i can definitely see myself reinstalling.
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@Gladonos said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2963725#Comment_2963725
This is absolutely the issue. This is why I run it. Not because it's a good ability. The ability is crap. 3 second sprint is far superior then a crappy dash. What makes Dead Hard strong is that there is no condition and you can simply activate it anytime you need it. It's 100% reliable and always there when you need it. There is no way to balance a perk like this without gutting it. Reliability is the most important thing there is.
It needs to have a condition to activate. And I think I have a good idea for nerfing it.
Maybe it becomes active for 30 seconds after taking a hit?
I like that idea too!
though I would buff that number a bit, 30 seconds after a hit is usually not long enough for you to need to use the perk again. If it was something like a minute, then I think it would work.
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I don't think this really addressed DHs biggest issue.
The problem with the Perk is, that it's the only exhaustion Perk in the whole game that lets you use it at any point in time that you want. Every other Exhaustion Perk has restrictions placed on it that allow the Killer to anticipate and try and play around it: Sprint Burst can only be activated at the beginning of a chase when the Survivor starts running, Lithe requires a fastvault, Balanced Landing needs you to drop from a great height, etc - but Dead Hard is just a looming threat throughout the entirety of your chase with someone.
What I think needs to be done is that they add an active requirement to the Perk that needs to be fullfilled before it can be used.
My favourite idea atm would be to scrap the whole being injured thing and replace it with "after being in chase for X seconds without getting hit, Dead Hard activates" (I am still unsure about whether that timer should reset when chase is broken or not).
The problem I have with your idea is, that it just nerfs the already weakest part of Dead Hard, that being Dead Hard to dodge a hit, without really addressing why the Perk is so strong, that being Dead Hard for distance - which is a result of them being able to use it whenever they want.
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For the same reason Deathslinger got gutted:
Because Survivors found it unfun to play against him.
for more elaboration on this topic, I'll link you a post I made a while ago that explores this in great detail ^^
@Mister_xD said:
Prologue
Hello everyone,
First of all, this is not actually a post that I really wanted to make. As some of you will probaply know, I no longer play this game, so my enthusiasm for it has dwindled too. I have just not been having the motivation to make a long post like this one for a long while now, though I did write down the thoughts from this post in earlier comments already, just in a less detailed form.
Ever since i quit DbD in August 2021, I have been reflecting on why I quit and after discovering the reasons, decided to dig a bit deeper and find the reasons for those reasons. And I do think that I managed to figure out an issue this game has that I barely see anyone talk about, yet sooo many things people do talk about and discuss end up being direct consequences of this one, bigger thing.
So I did decide to make this post eventually, simply to shed some light onto what I believe to be, by far, Dead by Daylights biggest problem right now. The "root of all evil", if you will.
Also I am not saying this was DbD's only issue, there are some others that are very much seperated from this one that are important too (e.g. the discrepancy in strength between solo Survivors and SWF groups), but I believe this one to have the biggest impact on the game as of right now. And do keep in mind that this is my opinion, it is very possible that some of you might view other things as more important issues than this one.
The Issue
I'll be straight forward and tell you the problem right away:
The Survivors objective is unfun and boring.
Now before you go in the comments and start calling me crazy, please read my reasoning for this being DbDs biggest issue first. It is a lot more complicated than this one sentence might make it look like.
How to balance an asymmetrical game
I know this might seem off topic, but trust me, this is very important for later.
Dead by Daylight can be split into two seperate "games":
- The "Macrogame" (referring to the overall trial and its progression)
- The "Microgame" (referring to interactions between both sides)
The way we can create a balanced experience for both sides is, by making each side dominate on of those two cathegories, but as a result of that be weak in the other.
Essentially, this game boils down to both sides racing each other by pushing their strong suit and hoping that they can finish their objective before the other side has been able to finish theirs.
Due to this being an asymmetrical game, the side that has less players in one round (Killers) needs to be the dominant side in the Microgame, while the opposing side (Survivors) gets to dominate the Macrogame.
This makes sense, given the Survivors superior numbers that allow them to apply pressure on the Killer in multiple different locations, which the Killer can not contest due to them only being able to be in one place at a time.
To make this fair for the Killer, they need to have the upper hand in this 1v1 interaction, so that they don't waste much time on this one Survivor and can instead go and pressure the team after dealing with them quickly. This is also why they are referred to as "the powerrole", even though they themselves arent any more powerful than the Survivor side is, but they feel very powerful due to the fact that they heavily outclass an individual Survivor.
In other words, a balanced Dead by Daylight would be a game where Killers dominate in chases, whereas Survivors dominate in generator progression, with the deciding factor being who can be more efficient in "their game" of DbD and outperform the other side.
How the Issue affects DbD's balance
In a balanced Dead by Daylight, as discussed above, long chases do not exist. Killers dominate in this aspect, so Survivors will want to avoid chases altogether, focussing their gameplay on generators.
But generators are no fun. No one wants to focus their entire gameplay on holding M1 and occasionally hitting space bar - understandably so.
If this game were to ever be in a balanced state, Survivors would be the ones quitting out of boredom. And since Survivors are just as essential to this game as Killers are, while also making a majority of its playerbase simply because of the 4v1 nature of this game, this would be very bad news.
This is also something that I believe the Devs are very aware of. They have stated multiple times in the past now that they have no intention of balancing Dead by Daylight to make it fair, but to make it "fun".
But what does that mean exactly?
What is the one thing you think of when you talk about "fun" in Dead by Daylight? - It's chases.
Chases are a fast and easy way of bringing action into this, otherwise very boring, game. They are full of fast paced interactions between both sides and you need to think on the run to make the right call in order to avoid certain death at the Killers hands.
As a result the Devs have started balancing DbD around chases - some people might even refer to chases as Dead by Daylight in its entirety, completely forgetting that there is more to it outside of them.
While this is a very understandable decision made by the Devs, it is also one that brings major imbalances with it.
The result(s)
Due to the Devs focussing their resources on making chases a fair, interactive and balanced encounter for both sides, Killers feel very weak to play.
Remember what I said earlier about how to balance an asymmetrical game - Survivors need to dominate in the Macrogame, while Killers need to dominate in the Microgame.
But this is no longer the case. The reality of DbD is, that Survivors dominate the Killer in the Macrogame, as they were designed to, and are equal to them in the Microgame, while on the flip side Killers get dominated in the Macrogame, as they should, but are only equal to Survivors in the Microgame.
By balancing this game around the 1v1 aspect of it, the Devs took away the Killers strongsuit. Killers now struggle immensly to compete with Survivors, especially since those Survivors can hardly be nerfed in their strongsuit, due to that being a direct result of their superior numbers. Simply put Killers can not end their chases quick enough to properly race Survivors who focus on generatos, meaning any time the Survivor team is working on generators efficiently the Killer will most likely lose.
As a result the game becomes frustrating to its Killer playerbase, because any time they go up against a team of Survivors with an equal skilllevel to theirs, they are heavily outclassed simply due to this game being tilted in the Survivors favor as much as it is.
For Killers to be able to win, they need to be on a higher skilllevel than the Survivors are, so that the Killer makes less mistakes than the Survivors and can punish their mistakes more efficiently.
And this leads us to a very modern problem, namely that this essentially rules out the existance of MMR systems in a game like this - at least functional ones.
There are two possible outcomes with an MMR system in DbD right now:
- The system works and puts players of equal skill against each other. In this case Killers are heavily outmatched and will lose a majority of their games (unless Survivors make a huge, game losing, mistake, but for the sake of the argument we have to assume both sides play equally well), which feels unfair and bad for the Killers. Additionally, the high end Survivors would have no opponents, because Killers can not compete at this stage, which results in very long lobby queue times for them.
- The system doesnt work and puts players of varying skill against one another. In this case Killers would get to fight lesser experienced players as well, which allows them to win those games, which feels unfair and bad for those Survivors, as they feel outmatched.
This means no matter what happens, this is a lose-lose scenario. This is also why I keep saying that the most basic requirement for a functional MMR system is a balanced game, which DbD can not (and will probaply never) offer.
Another very common complaint by the Killerplayerbase today is, that gens are completed too fast. That however is not actually the case, it's that they are too slow at killing the Survivors.
And as I explained above, this is essentially an unfixable problem. There are two possible solutions to it, which equally don't work:
- Make Killers the strong chasers they are supposed to be to be able to rival the gen speeds - this one turns Survivor gameplay into a hold M1 simulator, making it extremely unfun for them to play.
- Make gens take longer to complete - this one makes Survivors sit on gens, holding down M1, even longer than they already have to, at which point no one is having fun anymore because of how sluggish the game has become.
Both of these fail entirely at the non interactive nature of generators.
And there are more, but we would still be here tomorrow if I went into detail on all of them, so I'll make it short. Here is a list of other issues that are directly linked to this one with a brief explanation:
- Maps having too many timewasters for Killers on them or generally not allowing for much map pressure (Pallets and Windows are what Survivors have to have fun in chases, to maximise fun and fairness in chases we need a bunch of them and make it so whoever mindgames who wins)
- A vast majority of the Killer roster being unviable in high level play (only viable options are Killers with strong chase related abilities to at least sometimes put Survivors in a lose-lose situation they can profit from, who also have good map pressure to fight generator speeds - e.g. Nurse and Blight)
- Killers getting nerfed who did not need a nerf (strong chase ability = unfun match for Survivors, therefore they get nerfed. This is what happened to Deathslinger or the Twins Toy Sword Add On)
- Killers being forced to run a bunch of slowdown Perks (essentially a futile attempt to force solution 2. from gens being done too fast. As explained above it makes the game miserably boring for Survivors, but is a necessary evil currently)
- Camping & Tunneling being such popular strategies (eliminating one player early on makes the Survivor teams overall map pressure take a huge hit, which can allow the Killer to relax a bit more. Not doing this is pretty much a lost trial. This is a result of gen speeds, which are a result of their unfun nature)
- Playing Killer being significantly more stressful than playing Survivor (you essentially have to play perfect to beat even just a mediocre team. The smallest mistake can cost you the entire game, due to a chase being extended too long and you therefore getting crushed in the Macrogame)
While not all of those might be a direct result of generators being boring, they are all linked to it in some way. Basically, the boring nature of gens caused the Devs flawed balance philosophy, which is what stops us from properly addressing those issues.
If we ever want to properly fix those problems, we need to address generators first. If we don't, all we achieve is trading one problematic thing for another.
What is the Solution?
A complete rework of the Survivors main objective.
We need to get rid of the excruciatingly boring gameplay that is holding down M1 while waiting for a progress bar to fill up - and this is not exclusive to generators by the way, all of the Survivors objectives are this boring, whether that be exit gate switches, totems (cleansing and blessing), healing, chest searching - they are all the same.
Of course these progress bars serve a purpose. These objectives are meant to be timewasters first and foremost, it is necessary that the Survivors spend a good amount of their time on doing them to allow the Killer to find and hunt them down.
So a reworked Survivor objective would need to be both time consuming and interactive for them at the same time.
It is not until this is achieved that we can properly address so many of the other, much more noticeable, issues that plague this game today.
This being said, personally I don't think this is a realistic demand to make.
Generators are one of the most fundamental mechanics in this game and they have existed for almost 6 years at this point without any major changes to them and with a total of 27 DLCs (some bigger than others ofc) that further change the game and, in many cases, directly rely on this mechanic or further add to it.
There are Perks on both sides directly tied to generator progress bars and there are some Killer powers that also rely on Survivors being on gens (such as Freddies teleport or the Doctors Madness Skill Checks) that would need to be addressed if gens were to be fundamentally reworked.
This absolutely does not mean it was impossible to address, however it would require a huge amount of time, ressources and effort from BHVRs side.
And I mean this when I say it, but I definitely think that at this point it would be easier for them to just work on a Dead by Daylight 2 and redesign it from the ground up with this in mind, rather than to try and somehow fix the current game (also due to spaghetti code that further hinders this).
However, I would definitely not mind being proven wrong on this. Though it would be a long and tedious process, I believe the game would greatly benefit from it in the long run.
And they can start small, not tackle the whole thing at once, but maybe start by doing one thing and see how it plays out. For example, rework the Exit Gates to no longer require you to hold M1 next to the switch until a progress bar is filled, but make it require fuses that the Survivors need to collect and insert - each fuse lights up one bulb and 3 fuses open the gate up. It would be significantly more interactive for both sides and it would get rid of people 99%ing the gates (another common complaint you hear a lot). You can also do something entirely different, the most important thing is that something is done.
Afterword
Thanks for reading this, admittedly very long, post. Might be my longest one yet, its definitely the one I put the most work into.
What do you think of this? Do you think I'm right? Or do you think I'm entirely wrong? Did i miss anything crucial? Please tell me down below!
Also please keep in mind this post is not meant to give solutions to this issue, but soley to highlight it - though if you think you got a good sulution to it you can share it down below too / make your own post about it! The more ideas we can give the Devs on this the better. I also deliberately did not post it in the Feedback subforum, as it is not meant to be feedback to the Devs, but as a bit of an explanation to where I believe the game stands right now and why certain things are happening to it for the community - as stated above, I do believe the Devs are very keenly aware of this issue already (and have been for a long time now).
Have a nice day / night and I'll see you next time!
also revert the Slinger nerfs, k thx bye.
(long read)
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thats what I imagine Daddy Slinger would have looked like in the Dating Sim.
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that depends on what the license holders agree to (whether they allow BHVR to mix their cosmetics up with other things or not).
that said, I think the titan skins are pretty much guaranteed to be linked.
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@hastarkis said:
I think, one of the reasons is this: killers don't feel as 2k is balanced. Even if it was a tough, close game, 2k is a tie for killer. That's the point of frustration and thinking SBMM system is bad even working properly. Killers don't want to get 2k, it's not fun to get a tie as a normal outcome. You want to make 3-4k to be normally satisfied as a gamer, but SBMM system thinks those matches aren't balanced and you are too strong.
So you make 3k-4k, rise mmr, get super good survs (equal for you as 1v1 maybe, and you can see that, but definitely not equal as a team), sweat for 3k againg, rise mmr, and forced to sweat even more because you are naturally trying to get a satisfying game and - at the same time - to jump over your skill.
SBMM system is conflicting with minds.
Firstly, because killer has to be a power figure. Killer looks and sounds like power figure, like someone who dictates rules. It's a killer, a murder machine. And that machine supposed to barely kill half of survs... ridiculous.
And secondly: you can see with lower mmr that you beated survs who weaker than you. Maybe they are equal for you as a team but in chases you can see they aren't as good as you individually and you can't unsee that fact. You feel your win is undeserved and feel your loss as an offence. You want to face equal survs and be able to beat all of them as a team, even if logicaly it's not possible.
I don't know how to change boredom of repairing and make possible to outplayed the whole team of equal gamets, maybe BHVR will shows smth really good, but for now I can imagine BHVR normalising death outcome for survs; normalising not 50/50 ratio but 60/40 maybe to avoid constant 2k-ties for killers; making 3k not super easy to achieve but not folowed by mmr rising either - it will be tie for sbmm system but will be perceived as a victory by brain because 3 kills is more than a half. So you could face reasonable opponents with good chances for reall win.
I can imagine, yet I'm not sure it's a good solution and looking forward for announced updates. However, I'm pretty sure the core problem isn't only in micro/macro abilities and balancing around chases but also in SBMM and its forced "balanced" ties. They don't really need to change the whole system, just to modify the math of which outcome is balanced.
I think this further highlights why soley looking at the outcome of a match is not a good way to balance the game.
A 2 kills / 2 escapes match could have been literally anything from "barely kill one person when the 5th gen popped and then hardcamp another guy you got using NWO and NOED" to "a lengthy trial where everyone got chased equally and the Killer 3 hooked every (dead) player and had the 2 surviving players on death hook". However, to MMR both games look the exace same.
I don't think that the outcome of 2/2 is necessarily one that people would be dissatisfied with, it's just that due to the current state of the game a 2/2 outcome will be the first described scenario more often than not, resulting in a feeling of loss to the Killer, as they barely managed to get those 2 kills as is and got pretty much dominated throughout the entire game.
If the Devs were to balance this game around individual hooks being achieved, this would be a very different story. As I said, a 2k can reach from 2 hooks achieved all the way to 10 hooks achieved - IMO a good goal to reach for would be an average amount of 9 hooks each game.
But as I said in the OP, to achieve something like this in the current state of the game, the Killer has to go up against people who are less skilled at the game than they are, which makes the whole MMR system thing obsolete again.
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@BrotherLove said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2960873#Comment_2960873
I don't think you understand what afk means. I played the game the way I wanted, the way the Devs allowed. I was not ever afk its just called afk pig. After they got their headsets off I purposely let them live. I wish they would ban me. 7k hours and I cant quit the game. They would be doing me a huge favor and save me $$ on all their skins. But sorry what I did was allowed by the rules.
AFK / idling is defined as:
"refusal to participate in a normal game of Dead by Daylight" - which you did. sitting in one spot all game (and refusal to attack / kill anyone afterwards) goes against everything this game stands for and is quite literally the textbook definition of the terms AFKing / Idling.
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that is certainly a number of games that should earn you a ban imho.
this isn't about effectiveness or strength, you were straight up AFKing for 57 games straight - and that is not okay, period.
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@Mister_xD said:
Prologue
Hello everyone,
First of all, this is not actually a post that I really wanted to make. As some of you will probaply know, I no longer play this game, so my enthusiasm for it has dwindled too. I have just not been having the motivation to make a long post like this one for a long while now, though I did write down the thoughts from this post in earlier comments already, just in a less detailed form.
Ever since i quit DbD in August 2021, I have been reflecting on why I quit and after discovering the reasons, decided to dig a bit deeper and find the reasons for those reasons. And I do think that I managed to figure out an issue this game has that I barely see anyone talk about, yet sooo many things people do talk about and discuss end up being direct consequences of this one, bigger thing.
So I did decide to make this post eventually, simply to shed some light onto what I believe to be, by far, Dead by Daylights biggest problem right now. The "root of all evil", if you will.
Also I am not saying this was DbD's only issue, there are some others that are very much seperated from this one that are important too (e.g. the discrepancy in strength between solo Survivors and SWF groups), but I believe this one to have the biggest impact on the game as of right now. And do keep in mind that this is my opinion, it is very possible that some of you might view other things as more important issues than this one.
The Issue
I'll be straight forward and tell you the problem right away:
The Survivors objective is unfun and boring.
Now before you go in the comments and start calling me crazy, please read my reasoning for this being DbDs biggest issue first. It is a lot more complicated than this one sentence might make it look like.
How to balance an asymmetrical game
I know this might seem off topic, but trust me, this is very important for later.
Dead by Daylight can be split into two seperate "games":
- The "Macrogame" (referring to the overall trial and its progression)
- The "Microgame" (referring to interactions between both sides)
The way we can create a balanced experience for both sides is, by making each side dominate on of those two cathegories, but as a result of that be weak in the other.
Essentially, this game boils down to both sides racing each other by pushing their strong suit and hoping that they can finish their objective before the other side has been able to finish theirs.
Due to this being an asymmetrical game, the side that has less players in one round (Killers) needs to be the dominant side in the Microgame, while the opposing side (Survivors) gets to dominate the Macrogame.
This makes sense, given the Survivors superior numbers that allow them to apply pressure on the Killer in multiple different locations, which the Killer can not contest due to them only being able to be in one place at a time.
To make this fair for the Killer, they need to have the upper hand in this 1v1 interaction, so that they don't waste much time on this one Survivor and can instead go and pressure the team after dealing with them quickly. This is also why they are referred to as "the powerrole", even though they themselves arent any more powerful than the Survivor side is, but they feel very powerful due to the fact that they heavily outclass an individual Survivor.
In other words, a balanced Dead by Daylight would be a game where Killers dominate in chases, whereas Survivors dominate in generator progression, with the deciding factor being who can be more efficient in "their game" of DbD and outperform the other side.
How the Issue affects DbD's balance
In a balanced Dead by Daylight, as discussed above, long chases do not exist. Killers dominate in this aspect, so Survivors will want to avoid chases altogether, focussing their gameplay on generators.
But generators are no fun. No one wants to focus their entire gameplay on holding M1 and occasionally hitting space bar - understandably so.
If this game were to ever be in a balanced state, Survivors would be the ones quitting out of boredom. And since Survivors are just as essential to this game as Killers are, while also making a majority of its playerbase simply because of the 4v1 nature of this game, this would be very bad news.
This is also something that I believe the Devs are very aware of. They have stated multiple times in the past now that they have no intention of balancing Dead by Daylight to make it fair, but to make it "fun".
But what does that mean exactly?
What is the one thing you think of when you talk about "fun" in Dead by Daylight? - It's chases.
Chases are a fast and easy way of bringing action into this, otherwise very boring, game. They are full of fast paced interactions between both sides and you need to think on the run to make the right call in order to avoid certain death at the Killers hands.
As a result the Devs have started balancing DbD around chases - some people might even refer to chases as Dead by Daylight in its entirety, completely forgetting that there is more to it outside of them.
While this is a very understandable decision made by the Devs, it is also one that brings major imbalances with it.
The result(s)
Due to the Devs focussing their resources on making chases a fair, interactive and balanced encounter for both sides, Killers feel very weak to play.
Remember what I said earlier about how to balance an asymmetrical game - Survivors need to dominate in the Macrogame, while Killers need to dominate in the Microgame.
But this is no longer the case. The reality of DbD is, that Survivors dominate the Killer in the Macrogame, as they were designed to, and are equal to them in the Microgame, while on the flip side Killers get dominated in the Macrogame, as they should, but are only equal to Survivors in the Microgame.
By balancing this game around the 1v1 aspect of it, the Devs took away the Killers strongsuit. Killers now struggle immensly to compete with Survivors, especially since those Survivors can hardly be nerfed in their strongsuit, due to that being a direct result of their superior numbers. Simply put Killers can not end their chases quick enough to properly race Survivors who focus on generatos, meaning any time the Survivor team is working on generators efficiently the Killer will most likely lose.
As a result the game becomes frustrating to its Killer playerbase, because any time they go up against a team of Survivors with an equal skilllevel to theirs, they are heavily outclassed simply due to this game being tilted in the Survivors favor as much as it is.
For Killers to be able to win, they need to be on a higher skilllevel than the Survivors are, so that the Killer makes less mistakes than the Survivors and can punish their mistakes more efficiently.
And this leads us to a very modern problem, namely that this essentially rules out the existance of MMR systems in a game like this - at least functional ones.
There are two possible outcomes with an MMR system in DbD right now:
- The system works and puts players of equal skill against each other. In this case Killers are heavily outmatched and will lose a majority of their games (unless Survivors make a huge, game losing, mistake, but for the sake of the argument we have to assume both sides play equally well), which feels unfair and bad for the Killers. Additionally, the high end Survivors would have no opponents, because Killers can not compete at this stage, which results in very long lobby queue times for them.
- The system doesnt work and puts players of varying skill against one another. In this case Killers would get to fight lesser experienced players as well, which allows them to win those games, which feels unfair and bad for those Survivors, as they feel outmatched.
This means no matter what happens, this is a lose-lose scenario. This is also why I keep saying that the most basic requirement for a functional MMR system is a balanced game, which DbD can not (and will probaply never) offer.
Another very common complaint by the Killerplayerbase today is, that gens are completed too fast. That however is not actually the case, it's that they are too slow at killing the Survivors.
And as I explained above, this is essentially an unfixable problem. There are two possible solutions to it, which equally don't work:
- Make Killers the strong chasers they are supposed to be to be able to rival the gen speeds - this one turns Survivor gameplay into a hold M1 simulator, making it extremely unfun for them to play.
- Make gens take longer to complete - this one makes Survivors sit on gens, holding down M1, even longer than they already have to, at which point no one is having fun anymore because of how sluggish the game has become.
Both of these fail entirely at the non interactive nature of generators.
And there are more, but we would still be here tomorrow if I went into detail on all of them, so I'll make it short. Here is a list of other issues that are directly linked to this one with a brief explanation:
- Maps having too many timewasters for Killers on them or generally not allowing for much map pressure (Pallets and Windows are what Survivors have to have fun in chases, to maximise fun and fairness in chases we need a bunch of them and make it so whoever mindgames who wins)
- A vast majority of the Killer roster being unviable in high level play (only viable options are Killers with strong chase related abilities to at least sometimes put Survivors in a lose-lose situation they can profit from, who also have good map pressure to fight generator speeds - e.g. Nurse and Blight)
- Killers getting nerfed who did not need a nerf (strong chase ability = unfun match for Survivors, therefore they get nerfed. This is what happened to Deathslinger or the Twins Toy Sword Add On)
- Killers being forced to run a bunch of slowdown Perks (essentially a futile attempt to force solution 2. from gens being done too fast. As explained above it makes the game miserably boring for Survivors, but is a necessary evil currently)
- Camping & Tunneling being such popular strategies (eliminating one player early on makes the Survivor teams overall map pressure take a huge hit, which can allow the Killer to relax a bit more. Not doing this is pretty much a lost trial. This is a result of gen speeds, which are a result of their unfun nature)
- Playing Killer being significantly more stressful than playing Survivor (you essentially have to play perfect to beat even just a mediocre team. The smallest mistake can cost you the entire game, due to a chase being extended too long and you therefore getting crushed in the Macrogame)
While not all of those might be a direct result of generators being boring, they are all linked to it in some way. Basically, the boring nature of gens caused the Devs flawed balance philosophy, which is what stops us from properly addressing those issues.
If we ever want to properly fix those problems, we need to address generators first. If we don't, all we achieve is trading one problematic thing for another.
What is the Solution?
A complete rework of the Survivors main objective.
We need to get rid of the excruciatingly boring gameplay that is holding down M1 while waiting for a progress bar to fill up - and this is not exclusive to generators by the way, all of the Survivors objectives are this boring, whether that be exit gate switches, totems (cleansing and blessing), healing, chest searching - they are all the same.
Of course these progress bars serve a purpose. These objectives are meant to be timewasters first and foremost, it is necessary that the Survivors spend a good amount of their time on doing them to allow the Killer to find and hunt them down.
So a reworked Survivor objective would need to be both time consuming and interactive for them at the same time.
It is not until this is achieved that we can properly address so many of the other, much more noticeable, issues that plague this game today.
This being said, personally I don't think this is a realistic demand to make.
Generators are one of the most fundamental mechanics in this game and they have existed for almost 6 years at this point without any major changes to them and with a total of 27 DLCs (some bigger than others ofc) that further change the game and, in many cases, directly rely on this mechanic or further add to it.
There are Perks on both sides directly tied to generator progress bars and there are some Killer powers that also rely on Survivors being on gens (such as Freddies teleport or the Doctors Madness Skill Checks) that would need to be addressed if gens were to be fundamentally reworked.
This absolutely does not mean it was impossible to address, however it would require a huge amount of time, ressources and effort from BHVRs side.
And I mean this when I say it, but I definitely think that at this point it would be easier for them to just work on a Dead by Daylight 2 and redesign it from the ground up with this in mind, rather than to try and somehow fix the current game (also due to spaghetti code that further hinders this).
However, I would definitely not mind being proven wrong on this. Though it would be a long and tedious process, I believe the game would greatly benefit from it in the long run.
And they can start small, not tackle the whole thing at once, but maybe start by doing one thing and see how it plays out. For example, rework the Exit Gates to no longer require you to hold M1 next to the switch until a progress bar is filled, but make it require fuses that the Survivors need to collect and insert - each fuse lights up one bulb and 3 fuses open the gate up. It would be significantly more interactive for both sides and it would get rid of people 99%ing the gates (another common complaint you hear a lot). You can also do something entirely different, the most important thing is that something is done.
Afterword
Thanks for reading this, admittedly very long, post. Might be my longest one yet, its definitely the one I put the most work into.
What do you think of this? Do you think I'm right? Or do you think I'm entirely wrong? Did i miss anything crucial? Please tell me down below!
Also please keep in mind this post is not meant to give solutions to this issue, but soley to highlight it - though if you think you got a good sulution to it you can share it down below too / make your own post about it! The more ideas we can give the Devs on this the better. I also deliberately did not post it in the Feedback subforum, as it is not meant to be feedback to the Devs, but as a bit of an explanation to where I believe the game stands right now and why certain things are happening to it for the community - as stated above, I do believe the Devs are very keenly aware of this issue already (and have been for a long time now).
Have a nice day / night and I'll see you next time!
also revert the Slinger nerfs, k thx bye.
This. This is what I want to be addressed.
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I have a couple of reasons:
- to make my characters unique and stand out from the rest
- because I like the way they look with certain cosmetics on more than in their base skins
- it adds some ambiance to the trials
- sometimes you just got to go for the meme. Mr. Puddles forever!
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I dont dislike it at all, I just think its a lot less unique than the original one.
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My love for DbD has been reignited in a, lets say, slightly different way.
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That depends.
IF they implement some base changes to the Survivors main objective first and then nerf the Killers gen defence Perks, I think this will be a very healthy change for the overall game.
But you can not just keep gens as they are right now and nerf the Killers attempt to somehow gain ground in this game.
For more clarification on my thoughts on this topic, I'll link a post I made recently that explores this issue in detail:
@Mister_xD said:
Prologue
Hello everyone,
First of all, this is not actually a post that I really wanted to make. As some of you will probaply know, I no longer play this game, so my enthusiasm for it has dwindled too. I have just not been having the motivation to make a long post like this one for a long while now, though I did write down the thoughts from this post in earlier comments already, just in a less detailed form.
Ever since i quit DbD in August 2021, I have been reflecting on why I quit and after discovering the reasons, decided to dig a bit deeper and find the reasons for those reasons. And I do think that I managed to figure out an issue this game has that I barely see anyone talk about, yet sooo many things people do talk about and discuss end up being direct consequences of this one, bigger thing.
So I did decide to make this post eventually, simply to shed some light onto what I believe to be, by far, Dead by Daylights biggest problem right now. The "root of all evil", if you will.
Also I am not saying this was DbD's only issue, there are some others that are very much seperated from this one that are important too (e.g. the discrepancy in strength between solo Survivors and SWF groups), but I believe this one to have the biggest impact on the game as of right now. And do keep in mind that this is my opinion, it is very possible that some of you might view other things as more important issues than this one.
The Issue
I'll be straight forward and tell you the problem right away:
The Survivors objective is unfun and boring.
Now before you go in the comments and start calling me crazy, please read my reasoning for this being DbDs biggest issue first. It is a lot more complicated than this one sentence might make it look like.
How to balance an asymmetrical game
I know this might seem off topic, but trust me, this is very important for later.
Dead by Daylight can be split into two seperate "games":
- The "Macrogame" (referring to the overall trial and its progression)
- The "Microgame" (referring to interactions between both sides)
The way we can create a balanced experience for both sides is, by making each side dominate on of those two cathegories, but as a result of that be weak in the other.
Essentially, this game boils down to both sides racing each other by pushing their strong suit and hoping that they can finish their objective before the other side has been able to finish theirs.
Due to this being an asymmetrical game, the side that has less players in one round (Killers) needs to be the dominant side in the Microgame, while the opposing side (Survivors) gets to dominate the Macrogame.
This makes sense, given the Survivors superior numbers that allow them to apply pressure on the Killer in multiple different locations, which the Killer can not contest due to them only being able to be in one place at a time.
To make this fair for the Killer, they need to have the upper hand in this 1v1 interaction, so that they don't waste much time on this one Survivor and can instead go and pressure the team after dealing with them quickly. This is also why they are referred to as "the powerrole", even though they themselves arent any more powerful than the Survivor side is, but they feel very powerful due to the fact that they heavily outclass an individual Survivor.
In other words, a balanced Dead by Daylight would be a game where Killers dominate in chases, whereas Survivors dominate in generator progression, with the deciding factor being who can be more efficient in "their game" of DbD and outperform the other side.
How the Issue affects DbD's balance
In a balanced Dead by Daylight, as discussed above, long chases do not exist. Killers dominate in this aspect, so Survivors will want to avoid chases altogether, focussing their gameplay on generators.
But generators are no fun. No one wants to focus their entire gameplay on holding M1 and occasionally hitting space bar - understandably so.
If this game were to ever be in a balanced state, Survivors would be the ones quitting out of boredom. And since Survivors are just as essential to this game as Killers are, while also making a majority of its playerbase simply because of the 4v1 nature of this game, this would be very bad news.
This is also something that I believe the Devs are very aware of. They have stated multiple times in the past now that they have no intention of balancing Dead by Daylight to make it fair, but to make it "fun".
But what does that mean exactly?
What is the one thing you think of when you talk about "fun" in Dead by Daylight? - It's chases.
Chases are a fast and easy way of bringing action into this, otherwise very boring, game. They are full of fast paced interactions between both sides and you need to think on the run to make the right call in order to avoid certain death at the Killers hands.
As a result the Devs have started balancing DbD around chases - some people might even refer to chases as Dead by Daylight in its entirety, completely forgetting that there is more to it outside of them.
While this is a very understandable decision made by the Devs, it is also one that brings major imbalances with it.
The result(s)
Due to the Devs focussing their resources on making chases a fair, interactive and balanced encounter for both sides, Killers feel very weak to play.
Remember what I said earlier about how to balance an asymmetrical game - Survivors need to dominate in the Macrogame, while Killers need to dominate in the Microgame.
But this is no longer the case. The reality of DbD is, that Survivors dominate the Killer in the Macrogame, as they were designed to, and are equal to them in the Microgame, while on the flip side Killers get dominated in the Macrogame, as they should, but are only equal to Survivors in the Microgame.
By balancing this game around the 1v1 aspect of it, the Devs took away the Killers strongsuit. Killers now struggle immensly to compete with Survivors, especially since those Survivors can hardly be nerfed in their strongsuit, due to that being a direct result of their superior numbers. Simply put Killers can not end their chases quick enough to properly race Survivors who focus on generatos, meaning any time the Survivor team is working on generators efficiently the Killer will most likely lose.
As a result the game becomes frustrating to its Killer playerbase, because any time they go up against a team of Survivors with an equal skilllevel to theirs, they are heavily outclassed simply due to this game being tilted in the Survivors favor as much as it is.
For Killers to be able to win, they need to be on a higher skilllevel than the Survivors are, so that the Killer makes less mistakes than the Survivors and can punish their mistakes more efficiently.
And this leads us to a very modern problem, namely that this essentially rules out the existance of MMR systems in a game like this - at least functional ones.
There are two possible outcomes with an MMR system in DbD right now:
- The system works and puts players of equal skill against each other. In this case Killers are heavily outmatched and will lose a majority of their games (unless Survivors make a huge, game losing, mistake, but for the sake of the argument we have to assume both sides play equally well), which feels unfair and bad for the Killers. Additionally, the high end Survivors would have no opponents, because Killers can not compete at this stage, which results in very long lobby queue times for them.
- The system doesnt work and puts players of varying skill against one another. In this case Killers would get to fight lesser experienced players as well, which allows them to win those games, which feels unfair and bad for those Survivors, as they feel outmatched.
This means no matter what happens, this is a lose-lose scenario. This is also why I keep saying that the most basic requirement for a functional MMR system is a balanced game, which DbD can not (and will probaply never) offer.
Another very common complaint by the Killerplayerbase today is, that gens are completed too fast. That however is not actually the case, it's that they are too slow at killing the Survivors.
And as I explained above, this is essentially an unfixable problem. There are two possible solutions to it, which equally don't work:
- Make Killers the strong chasers they are supposed to be to be able to rival the gen speeds - this one turns Survivor gameplay into a hold M1 simulator, making it extremely unfun for them to play.
- Make gens take longer to complete - this one makes Survivors sit on gens, holding down M1, even longer than they already have to, at which point no one is having fun anymore because of how sluggish the game has become.
Both of these fail entirely at the non interactive nature of generators.
And there are more, but we would still be here tomorrow if I went into detail on all of them, so I'll make it short. Here is a list of other issues that are directly linked to this one with a brief explanation:
- Maps having too many timewasters for Killers on them or generally not allowing for much map pressure (Pallets and Windows are what Survivors have to have fun in chases, to maximise fun and fairness in chases we need a bunch of them and make it so whoever mindgames who wins)
- A vast majority of the Killer roster being unviable in high level play (only viable options are Killers with strong chase related abilities to at least sometimes put Survivors in a lose-lose situation they can profit from, who also have good map pressure to fight generator speeds - e.g. Nurse and Blight)
- Killers getting nerfed who did not need a nerf (strong chase ability = unfun match for Survivors, therefore they get nerfed. This is what happened to Deathslinger or the Twins Toy Sword Add On)
- Killers being forced to run a bunch of slowdown Perks (essentially a futile attempt to force solution 2. from gens being done too fast. As explained above it makes the game miserably boring for Survivors, but is a necessary evil currently)
- Camping & Tunneling being such popular strategies (eliminating one player early on makes the Survivor teams overall map pressure take a huge hit, which can allow the Killer to relax a bit more. Not doing this is pretty much a lost trial. This is a result of gen speeds, which are a result of their unfun nature)
- Playing Killer being significantly more stressful than playing Survivor (you essentially have to play perfect to beat even just a mediocre team. The smallest mistake can cost you the entire game, due to a chase being extended too long and you therefore getting crushed in the Macrogame)
While not all of those might be a direct result of generators being boring, they are all linked to it in some way. Basically, the boring nature of gens caused the Devs flawed balance philosophy, which is what stops us from properly addressing those issues.
If we ever want to properly fix those problems, we need to address generators first. If we don't, all we achieve is trading one problematic thing for another.
What is the Solution?
A complete rework of the Survivors main objective.
We need to get rid of the excruciatingly boring gameplay that is holding down M1 while waiting for a progress bar to fill up - and this is not exclusive to generators by the way, all of the Survivors objectives are this boring, whether that be exit gate switches, totems (cleansing and blessing), healing, chest searching - they are all the same.
Of course these progress bars serve a purpose. These objectives are meant to be timewasters first and foremost, it is necessary that the Survivors spend a good amount of their time on doing them to allow the Killer to find and hunt them down.
So a reworked Survivor objective would need to be both time consuming and interactive for them at the same time.
It is not until this is achieved that we can properly address so many of the other, much more noticeable, issues that plague this game today.
This being said, personally I don't think this is a realistic demand to make.
Generators are one of the most fundamental mechanics in this game and they have existed for almost 6 years at this point without any major changes to them and with a total of 27 DLCs (some bigger than others ofc) that further change the game and, in many cases, directly rely on this mechanic or further add to it.
There are Perks on both sides directly tied to generator progress bars and there are some Killer powers that also rely on Survivors being on gens (such as Freddies teleport or the Doctors Madness Skill Checks) that would need to be addressed if gens were to be fundamentally reworked.
This absolutely does not mean it was impossible to address, however it would require a huge amount of time, ressources and effort from BHVRs side.
And I mean this when I say it, but I definitely think that at this point it would be easier for them to just work on a Dead by Daylight 2 and redesign it from the ground up with this in mind, rather than to try and somehow fix the current game (also due to spaghetti code that further hinders this).
However, I would definitely not mind being proven wrong on this. Though it would be a long and tedious process, I believe the game would greatly benefit from it in the long run.
And they can start small, not tackle the whole thing at once, but maybe start by doing one thing and see how it plays out. For example, rework the Exit Gates to no longer require you to hold M1 next to the switch until a progress bar is filled, but make it require fuses that the Survivors need to collect and insert - each fuse lights up one bulb and 3 fuses open the gate up. It would be significantly more interactive for both sides and it would get rid of people 99%ing the gates (another common complaint you hear a lot). You can also do something entirely different, the most important thing is that something is done.
Afterword
Thanks for reading this, admittedly very long, post. Might be my longest one yet, its definitely the one I put the most work into.
What do you think of this? Do you think I'm right? Or do you think I'm entirely wrong? Did i miss anything crucial? Please tell me down below!
Also please keep in mind this post is not meant to give solutions to this issue, but soley to highlight it - though if you think you got a good sulution to it you can share it down below too / make your own post about it! The more ideas we can give the Devs on this the better. I also deliberately did not post it in the Feedback subforum, as it is not meant to be feedback to the Devs, but as a bit of an explanation to where I believe the game stands right now and why certain things are happening to it for the community - as stated above, I do believe the Devs are very keenly aware of this issue already (and have been for a long time now).
Have a nice day / night and I'll see you next time!
also revert the Slinger nerfs, k thx bye.
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Is there even competition?
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something that, this time, I will not be scammed out of by a loss of progress bug :)
Something that is actually returnable this time! (which Legacy certainly is - they just refuse to for god knows what reason).
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The only critisism on it I can understand is when people say they want it to be a choice - but then I also understand the flip side of that coin, where making it a choice would enable the Killer to bleed out the Survivor out of spite, which would go entirely against the idea of this mechanic saving everyone some time.
But yeah, anyone complaining that it "robs them off potential escape attempts" has some strong Copium.
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@HeyItsQuiet said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2958698#Comment_2958698
No thank you! I've been playing and watching streamers play long enough to know that last minute escapes happen frequently and are one of the best parts of a match. But again, hope you have a great day! Later!
I must seriously question why you are on a discussion forum, when you refuse to have an actual discussion with anyone on your topic.
Getting downed as the last Survivor is a death sentence, no matter how hard you try to deny that. And seeing how you are out of arguments, while actively refusing to actually address mine, I'll take it you know that too and are either trolling or in actual denial over it.
Anyway, seeing how talking to you is about as effective as talking to a brick wall, I'll leave it at that.
Please don't bother to respond unless you got an actual argument / decided to address mine.
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@HeyItsQuiet said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2958691#Comment_2958691
Because I addressed your "HURRR GAME OVER" in the OP before you even posted it. So very sorry you lacked the reading comprehension. Have a great day!
and i addressed your counter arguments in my comment ^^
you would have noticed, had you taken yourself the time to read my comment, as I did with yours.
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@HeyItsQuiet said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2956574#Comment_2956574
Too long, won't read. A down as last survivor is not the end of the game, and there are thousands of clips and videos out there to prove it. Bye lmao.
if you're not even going to bother reading it, why even bother replying?
and its really not a long post lol
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Excuse me?
in what universe was this a mistake?!
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I'll be honest with you:
At this stage of the trial, you lost. If you are literally the last person alive and you are being downed, you are dead and there is nothing about it you can do anymore. Making a Killer automatically execute you here does nothing besides saving both of you the time of them picking you up and hooking you manually (plus anything else they decide to do inbetween, e.g. waiting out your potential DS / waiting for you to crawl out of the pallet you might be in because of Power Struggle / simply slugging you to close hatch and get some bonus BP or because they have no nearby hooks or to just be a nuissance).
All of those "but what if-" scenarios you bring up are incredibly nieche to the point where it is unrealistic to assume you will get them to work. This is the reason why the last Survivor that is hooked does not get access to his Escape Attempts either and it applies here too.
now for your counter arguments:
"Being last person hooked is game over": it's absolutely not
it absolutely is. dragging out every trial you play by an additional minute, just because someone might get a miniscule chance at an escape that will just result in their immediate death again in 95% of those cases because the Killer will simply redown and rehook them is just pointless. Not to mention the times where someone does jump off, gets downed and then sits on the floor for a minute straight so the Killer won't get DSed.
Not every killer will stand in front of the hook and wait for you to die
and why do you think they don't do that?
it's because they know that you can not escape no matter what and therefore go for as many bonus BP as they can. Change that and you'll be surprised how many Killers will gladly watch you enter second stage before wandering off to kick some stuff.
What if the killer wants to give hatch?
the Killer can always just not down you, just like they could always just not hook you to give hatch.
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why am I not surprised that they still felt the need to forcefully keep the RNG aspect of her power in the game?
It would have been a lot less work for them AND significantly improved this Killers performance had they simply gotten rid of RNG and made the key guaranteed on box 3.
But no, guess that would be "boring" - even though I can not think of anyone who actually enjoys a gamemechanic that ignores any sense of planning, skill or consistency in favor of pure RNG, but hey.
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its most likely going to be a legacy 2.0 situation, where the reward you get has no actual value other than being rare.
hey, maybe they will actually bring back the old legacy skins for this with new ones added for all new character additions?
i just hope its not going to be a boring charm to put on your belt / hook....
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@Mooks said:
I hate people. And I believe most were just voting Dating Sim as a joke..
we could have had a tv show based on DbD getting a more realistic portrayal of how trials are going but we get this??
I fail to see the bad thing here?
I mean, have you seen the Trapper?
This is a work of art!