Mister_xD
Mister_xD
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@Johnny_XMan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3055242#Comment_3055242
No they wouldn’t, why would they make it like Bubba’s? Someone that can’t travel across the map with his chainsaw?
If you made it like Bubba’s you’d end up with Hillbilly getting a cooldown every time he has to hold while revving at a loop. How would the game distinguish between revving for a play vs for face camping?
I don’t think you understand the differences between this two characters if you think Billy can simply “let go” and curve around objects like Bubba can.
I think you're reading quite a lot into my comment that I never said.
You said that the only reason overheat was added for Hillbilly was to make 99%ed chainsaw hook camps impossible, to which I simply added that that was not the intention behind it, they very clearly intended to nerf both his map traversal and chase recovery with it as well.
HAD they done what you said they did, THEN Hillbillys overheat would work similar to Bubbas, where you gain heat while charging your chainsaw but then quickly lose it uppon either dropping out of it or fully committing to a chainsawsprint.
Also,
If you made it like Bubba’s you’d end up with Hillbilly getting a cooldown every time he has to hold while revving at a loop. How would the game distinguish between revving for a play vs for face camping?
That is quite literally currently in the game. Exactly the way you described it too. You WILL go on cooldown when holding your power around a loop too much, just like Bubba - and to answer your question, the game can not distinguish between a facecamping Billy and a Billy aiming his chainsawsprint around loops at all. It never could and I doubt it ever will.
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@Mooks said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3055394#Comment_3055394
I mean, I get the confusion, they could almost be twins after all.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/THIUT6B4KSO2/5c368bdb-738a-43cd-9869-6744ee50de6a.jpeg
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/H0XD3G6RA235/4043fe5b-31f8-4454-a4ce-b786e11d4068.jpeg
Did you mean to post the same picture twice there?
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Hex: Dismay
Any time a generator is finished, Hex: Dismay gains a token. For each token, call uppon the Entity to block a random, unrepaired generator remaining in the trial. Blocked generators may regress at 15/25/50% regression rate. Once Hex: Dismay reaches 4 tokens, it's effect changes to be the following: any generator or exit gate that is not currently being worked on will regress at 100/150/200% regression rate. The Entity will also block the Hex Totem for the remainder of the trial.
The Hex effect persists until Hex: Dismay's associated Hex Totem is cleansed.
Insidious
(rework idea, but this could also easily be its own standalone Perk)
Any time a Survivor tries to read your aura, gain the Undetectable status effect for 15/20/30 seconds and reveal their aura to you instead. After activating, this Perk goes on a 60/45/30 second cooldown.
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Allow me to introduce you to "Dwight the brave", also known as "throw every game you are in just to get a slight chance to maybe get this and pray to god that the Killer doesn't have headphones every chance you get". (you gotta hide within 10m to the Killer without being found as a specific character (Dwight in this one) for a total of 60 seconds in a single match)
As far as I know this one had two appearances, as well as multiple 120 second versions that weren't master challenges.
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@Johnny_XMan said:
If I remember correctly this was added to prevent unlimited chainsaw face camping.
Where Hillbillies would just stand in front of the hook revving their chainsaw indefinitely so survivors weren’t even able to trade off hooks.
If that were the main concern they would have just made it work like Bubbas overheat, which was introduced at the same time.
No, they fully intended to nerf his map mobility and missed attack recovery.
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That's because there is a decrepancy between what you see on your screen and what the server sees.
On average it is very safe to assume that anything you see the server sees slightly behind, which means that even when the wiggle out bar is full on your side, on the serverside of things you still had a short way to go when the Killer reached the hook, therefore you didn't actually wiggle out.
This decrepancy is what is usually referred to as "latency", which is better or worse depending on your connection to the server. The worse the connection, the later the server receives your inputs. And since we got a dedicated server system in place, what the server sees counts to ensure maximum fainess to each player in the trial - because this exact thing applies to everyone the server acts as a sort of middleground.
In your scenario it is safe to assume the Killer has reached the hook on their screen just fine and hit space to hook you, you on your screen however filled your wiggle off bar. Both your and the Killers client now send their information towards the server, the Killer saying "I hooked this person" and you saying "I escaped" - since both of these have a vastly different outcome for the trial, the server will go through with whichever information it received first, as it is safe to assume that this is what actually happened first, in your case getting hooked.
It would be quite unfair to prioritize any clients input over the others, as that would result in the other party getting scammed out of gamewinning scenarios, even though they themselves did absolutely nothing wrong. Don't forget that the Killer also sees everything slightly ahead on their screen just like you do, meaning if the game were to prioritize you over them, then they would reach the hook and then just stand there and wait for your client to sync up with them, potentially allowing you to wiggle out in the process, despite the Killer having reached their goal a while ago.
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Their whole argumentation against a good Prestige reward was that they wanted "no more exclusive skins", so surely they wouldn't just start handing out a bunch of exclusive skins to people who have Amazon Prime, right?
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@Shroompy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3053821#Comment_3053821
You dont even get punished nowadays for using your power effectively
Its just really hard to do so
Sure you do.
Any time you use your power, Overheat actively punishes you by filling up the "you dont get to use your power anymore" bar. And as a Billy you want to be in your power a lot, as it provides good map traversal and decent chase abilities, meaning playing him well just fills up this "screw you" bar.
And that should not be a thing. We already have to put up with that stupid roar that warns Survivors when you enter a Chainsawsprint and having a limited time to aim our Chainsawsprint before launching it, we really don't need to get additionally punished every time we do use the chainsaw.
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@[Deleted User] said:
What kind of buffs do you want?
I would like to see Overheat be reworked into working like Bubbas.
It builds up while you are charging the power, but once you cancel it or fully charge it, it immediately goes away again.
That way you can't facecamp with a 99%ed chainsaw, but you also don't get punished for using your power effectively anymore.
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Her entire chase power is Spirits passive.
Her map traversal is a vastly inferior Dredge.
Her condemned mechanic takes forever to build up and Survivors can just get rid of it mid chase.
Her stealth mode has a Lullaby that warns Survivors.
Yes, she is bad. So bad in fact that she is the only Killer in the game right now I didn't even bother to purchase. You're better off just playing Dredge instead IMO.
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Because it's addicting.
Even though I'm not having fun, there will always be this one game where I was actually enjoying my time and then somehow my head uses that as a justification for the next 20...
Just to clarify "not having fun" doesn't mean dread every second that I expose myself to the game. 90% of the time I'm just bored, I've given up on this game ever being in a good spot, balance wise, so I've mostly stopped caring.
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When your carefully placed Beartraps catch people left and right.
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I wouldnt say "good" - it was an indoor map after all.
But for indoor map standarts, ye it was pretty good. A LOT better than current Gideon or RPD at least.
Plus I still think it was a lot better for Survivor than many gave it credit for. Yeah you couldn't loop any individual pallet, but you had like 50 and could easily chain them together to create some really good loops.
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Because fun and chill games dont make for a good headline and therefore grant less attention.
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I'd guess between 16 and 20.
This kind of genre the game is in (Horror/Slasher genre) usually attracts those age groups more than others.
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@Chilli_man2400 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3047733#Comment_3047733
There is not one video of the devs facing a slinger. Also like the guy above said his nerfs were justified cause his ads made so many lose lose situations it was not fair at all
While I do agree that the person you're on about is wrong in many, many ways, I do have to heavily disagree on one thing: That being your stance that the Slinger nerfs were justified. They were not.
Slingers whole thing was that he was a monster in 1v1 chases. That was the point of his character and he was designed around it, with ample counterplay to him in mind. Said counterplay being anything that didn't relate directly to said 1v1 scenarios, because Slinger was heavily lacking in every other aspect of the game, meaning Survivors could exploit this to gain the upper hand against him.
Whether that is just doing generators, playing stealthy or ganging up on him, those strategies were highly effective because he has no way of countering them. His map pressure is the worst in the entire game, he has no efficient 4v1 tool plus the 1v1 tool he has gets hindred quite significantly by a group of Survivors who can bodyblock the chain, his gun gives loud map wide audio clues that tell everyone that he is currently chasing and he has no inbuild tracking ability either. This made him very fair.
All of those weaknesses still apply to him today, but he no longer has his redeeming factor, that being his 1v1 chase potential. The result is what we have today: a severely underpowered character that honestly doesn't have any reason to exist when considering that Huntress, who does the exact same as him but better in every way, is a thing.
Also, you mentioned "lose-lose scenarios" as a negative thing - why exactly is that?
After all, this is an asymmetrical game. The whole point of this is that the Killer is significantly stronger than an individual Survivor is, so it should be only natural that Killers put individual Survivors into lose-lose scenarios all the time. Thats the whole point of this being a 4v1 after all, the only way the 4 are supposed to be able to win is by ganging up on the 1 player and using their superior numbers as an advantage against them - a philosophy that was embodied perfectly by old Deathslinger. In fact, Survivors should never be equal to the Killer in a chase and the relatively common mindset people portrait that they want skill to be the determining factor of a chases outcome in itself goes against the type of game we are playing.
That said, I don't like it either when people can just turn their brain off and still dominate chases. I do think that those lose-lose scenarios the Killer inflicts on the Survivors need to be earned - if you wanna dominate in chase, then you should be able to land your shots with Slinger. But just spamming ADS to slowly zone people away and then M1 them is just boring and kind of goes against what this character is supposed to be, so the only nerf he received that I could get behind is the longer cooldown when dropping out of ADS. Good Deathslingers wouldn't be affected by this because they know to only enter ADS when they intend to shoot and the people who relied on this to win now need to actually play the character well to get his benefits.
I know this game is incredibly boring outside of chases, which in return made Deathslinger a boring character to go up against. But this is not a problem with him, this is a problem with the game. And we should not gut one of the only well balanced characters this game had to offer to hide the bad gamedesign - this is the exact opposite direction we should go in, we are actively regressing. Instead we should have focussed on improving the game in general, to make it fun outside of chases too.
So not only do I think the Deathslinger nerfs were highly unjustified, I believe they actively made this game worse and robbed us of any hope to see it improve any time soon - because the Devs would rather gut an extremely well designed and balanced character than face the issue he exposed, which greatly worries me to say the least.
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Everything about him needs to be reverted - except for the punishment for dropping out of ADS to make spamming his power to zone people less efficient.
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Dredge - Absolutely great aesthetic, the music is great and it has such a fun power to use (map dependent though) and its quite decent in chases too! Right now this is the only Killer I play regularly. I adore this character, don't you dare touch it, BHVR (unless it's to remove that mechanic that forces me into the locked locker all the time)!
Doctor - Love the depth that went into him with the Add Ons drastically changing up the way you play. Old Doctor was a lot more fun though, I kinda wish they never introduced Static Blast in the first place, it just made him a lot more brainless to play (while he remains at the same level, strength wise). Also great aesthetic with some really fun outfit combos.
Trapper - As outdated and bad as he is, I can't help but love this guy. I originally started out as a Trapper main and he has a special place reserved in my heart. I find nothing in this game (and I mean nothing) more satisfying than a Survivor running into one of my carefully placed Traps! I still don't get why he has to run around and collect his Traps though, that's just a huge hinderance he has for no apparent reason, when literally every other Trap based Killer in the game starts out with all of them in hand.
Honourable mentions:
Deathslinger - I used to adore this character the same was I adore Dredge nowadays. I would even say the same things about him being aesthetically very pleasing and having extremely fun and fair gameplay, but then BHVR decided to just completely gut this man and now just playing him makes me depressed. Still, I have tons of great memories with him so I at least wanted to mention him here.
Hillbilly - Same thing as with Deathslinger, though I never played him as frequently as I did with him (Deathslinger used to be literally the only Killer I would play for over a year, same as with Dredge right now), but I always enjoyed my time with him. I used to just run him (without Add Ons, because those were extremely busted) when I wanted to chill out, have some fun and still have a chance at winning, but the introduction of overheat has sucked all the fun straight out of him. Though in contrast to Deathslinger at least you can still have some enjoyable matches with him nowadays, which I can't say about Caleb.
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@[Deleted User] said:
These cosmetics won’t even mean anything if everyone has them. Hot take here, but announcing a reward for this round of grind changes was a big mistake.
I mean... the exact same was said back in 2016 when Legacy first released.
Of course at first everyone is going to have them, but with time (and maybe a convenient loss of all progress bug that scams tons of people off their legacys which you then refuse to return, BHVR?) they will become a lot more rare.
That said, I don't like the idea of just returning Legacy skins - but I would absolutely not mind creating a new set of Legacy skins that look different from the original. Something like a golden version of the base skin would be kinda cool IMO.
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Well said.
Its a very common misconception I hear quite often by a lot of different people when they say that "I got genrushed" just because all gens got done in 5 to 6 minutes.
The actual speed at which the generators got done in itself is not a reliable way to measure whether you got genrushed or not. In a lot of cases its just the Killers lack of map pressure - whether that is a result of their gameplay or just simply bad RNG doesn't matter in this scenario, fact is their map pressure sucked and therefore the gens got done quickly.
I will however have to disagree on one thing: I do not think genrush is based on the Survivors loadout, but more on the mindset they portrait. They don't need to bring BNP toolboxes and a bunch of genrepair perks to be genrushing. They genrush when they, well, rush the generators - which means ignoring any secondary objective and soley focussing on the gens. No chests, no totems, no healing, sometimes not even unhooking all in favor of squeezing as much gen progress out as possible.
Overall, genrush is a strategy the Survivors can use. I would say its the Survivors equivalent to camping & tunneling - highly effective, but unhealthy for the game.
Sadly though, there is no way to fix this. At least not without greatly reworking how this game works - for as long as the Devs try to balance around chases, genrushing will remain to be a near unbeatable strategy.
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@Shaped said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3043308#Comment_3043308
Ok I'll vote Susie then.
a good choice! :D
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@Shaped said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3043286#Comment_3043286
Ah I see. I would say go for one for the killer you play the most. I like Susie so it would be her probably.
But I don't want to pick because we are all different, and I want you to buy what you personally like the most.
Oh, I don't play any of those 3 on a regular basis, so I don't have a clear favourite out of them as of right now. I just go by what looks best to me and those 4 cosmetics were all tied for number 1, hence the poll.
Don't worry, you can't give any wrong answers :)
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@Shaped said:
None atm. Save shards for those and buy ac only cosmetics with ac's.
well yeah, that was the idea behind it. The question is just which one I should be saving those shards up for next.
Though I don't think I'll be purchasing any ACs soon so I'm currently not interested in purchasing any AC only cosmetics.
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I can definitely understand part of their reasoning for doing so: by giving you bonus BP these Perks made it on a lot of builds despite not actually belonging there, hindering your freedome in creating loadouts, because you always had to reserve that one spot for the grind reduction.
That being said, they should have made the BP boni a basekit feature. Removing them alltogether was a bad move IMO, one that primarily hurts newer players who need to get through the grind of unlocking the baseline of required Perks to be able to stand a chance out there.
But as someone who has pretty much everything maxed out already anyway, yes this is barely going to affect me. In fact I have stopped running BBQ on most my Killerbuilds anyway, unless the Perks aura reading has a good synergy with the Killers power (e.g. Hillbilly, Blight or Dredge).
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@PNgamer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3042295#Comment_3042295
that SWF players have advantages is obvious. What is there not to understand? I emphasize again. No one has said that SWF should disappear. DBD has changed, so don't pretend you know 100% that SWF is a minority. I don't know about other players. My solo Q experience is definitely good. It's exciting, challenging and fun.
that SWF players have advantages is obvious. What is there not to understand?
No one is arguing they didn't have an advantage over soloq players. I am even making an entire point about how we should buff soloq to be closer to SWF levels of power to then be able to properly balance the game.
don't pretend you know 100% that SWF is a minority
Once again, I never said anything along those lines. SWF is a clear majority of the games you play, that's one of the main things I've been saying - the bully squads YOU are talking about however are a clear minority of the overall amount of SWF groups out there, yet YOU are the one acting like you knew that every SWF out there was a bully squad.
I don't know about other players. My solo Q experience is definitely good. It's exciting, challenging and fun.
Good for you. Most people will still prefer playing together with some friends when they have the chance to do so.
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@PNgamer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3041763#Comment_3041763
- I disagree: SWF is not healthy in its current state, and certainly not in map balance.
- I also didn't say that SWF should be abolished, but that the game should be made more difficult for them because they have advantages.
- It doesn't make sense atm to buff solo survivors to the point of immeasurability, because that would make the game even harder for killers.
- This has nothing to do with punishment and is an excuse.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3042127#Comment_3042127
Here, too, I disagree. I only play solo and I can assure you. A large percentage of survivors exaggerate and exacerbate solo Q for no reason. There are good rounds and there are bad rounds, we know that. If in your case it was more bad rounds, then I'm sorry for you. But it's not like that with me, quite the opposite.
You shouldn't always point fingers at other players, but have the courage to take a look at your own nose. I like the feeling of playing the way you want, so this experience is a positive one for me. Campers and tunnelers aren't unique to Solo Q, and that's pulling your hair out. LOL doesn't get you anywhere there either.
I won't deny that it's more difficult in the solo Q, but On the subject of Solo Q Pain, it really sounds like a trend.
Sry
- just no. And map balance is an entirely different topic altogether.
- you said SWF is unhealthy, therefore a logical conclusion to take from that is to assume you think the game was more healthy without it - which is not the case. Also you got me intrigued: how DO you nerf a Discord call?
- it makes a lot of sense. Don't do it and you got exactly what we got now: a split survivor playerbase where SWF groups reign supreme while its impossible to properly nerf Survivors because solos are going to greatly suffer from that.
- no you quite literally want to make the game harder for anyone who wants to play with their friends. That is the textbook definition of punishing me for wanting to play with friends.
Also, you are once again willfully ignoring away the existance of casual players here and act like every SWF group in existance was made of a bunch of ultra tryhards who do anything to make the game as unfun / unfair towards you as possible, when in reality those kind of groups make a clear minority of the actual SWF groups.
And your "solution" to punish people for playing together willingly takes those ~90% of casual players as collateral damage. Do I even need to tell you why this is a bad thing?
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The report system needs an overhaul.
It's so unnecessary complex that most cheaters get to reign free for way too long just because most people can't report them properly.
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I have 250+ on Dredge.
The number is that low because I prestiged him 3 times throughout the event, each prestige removing between 50 and 60 cakes.
I also have 3 on Trapper - who now has a cake offering from every Anniversary event stored up B)
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Take away the peoples option to play this game with their friends and this game is going to die faster than you could count to 20. SWF is very healthy for this game, whether you like it or not.
Also, there are plenty of SWF groups out there who play this game casually. In fact, I would dare say most of them do. But since they are not the bully squad everyone pictures when talking about SWF, most don't even recognise them as one.
What needs to happen is BHVR finally addressing the elefant in the room and buffing solo Survivors to be able to keep up with those tryhard SWF groups (so that we no longer have a split Survivor playerbase) and then balance the game accordingly.
But you can't just go around punishing people for wanting to play with their friends.
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I generally dislike all of those Exposed UR Add Ons.
They just feel so uninspired to me and nearly every Killer that releases nowadays gets one. I just don't see why - why not give them UR Add On that work well together with their power / unlock new playstyles like they did back in the day with Trapper, Wraith or Doctor (for example) instead?
It would have been much cooler if the Iridescent Wooden Plank had gotten an effect like "while in Nightfall, The Dredge breaks out of a locked locker at the same speed as it exits an unlocked one" (or sthg along those lines).
Also I absolutely LOVE your War Helmet idea! This sounds like such a cool and fun Add On to play around with and make this character even more of a jumpscare Killer that I am genuinely sad its not in the game...
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The most depressing thing about it to me is seeing how he went from a masterfully balanced Killer with clear strengths that made him feel strong, a unique playstyle, that made him fun and unique, and ample weaknesses that could be exploited to beat him to what he is now: utterly underpowered and lacking in pretty much everything with a clear lack of inspiration and uniqueness and overall nothing redeeming (pun partially intended) about him.
It gets especially depressing when looking at Hillbilly, who has went through a very similar journey a long time ago, who still hasn't been fixed yet - because Hillbillies past is most likely exactly what Slingers future looks like: forgotten and abandoned by the Devs after being absolutely gutted.
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@Deme said:
- You can greed loops even with the old DH
- It takes good prediction/reaction time (skill) on m1 killers and its good vs nurse and blight
- Yes the new DH can greed windows and pallets aswell but its better than dashing to it with "i" frames after you get outplayed
- The whole purpose the the rework was to make it used less
- Get good (joke)
You know, seeing it in action now I think if Endurance stacking is removed (i.e. a sort of Exhaustion mechanic for Endurance where you can not activate multiple of them in quick succession - maybe make it so you can not get Endurance while inflicted with Deep Wound) the Perk is actually fine.
Because in that case while it would still be a free third healthstate any time you need it, said third healthstate would however have some restrictions / downsides attached to it that might warrant its very strong effect.
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@Brimp said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3034824#Comment_3034824
Tbh J flicks weren't even that strong compared to z flicks. You could dodge a J flick but not an OG z flick (still can replicate it with adren vial).
Why is everyone so adament about making this a balance discussion about Z-Flicks?
Not to mention that most of those "techs" people were calling intended, fair, etc. ended up beng but an exploit that got patched - like J-Flicks or Hugtech, so I am very careful calling anything with "tech" or "flick" in its name intended with this character. Unless the Devs specifically said otherwise, there is a very good chance they are not.
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4 times now, yes.
My first main used to be Trapper. I love him, but he is in such a bad state that I genuinely struggled to find enjoyment in him for a long time until I just stopped playing him entirely.
During this strugge, I started maining Doctor too - he was never my "main" Killer, but towards the end I played him significantly more than Trapper, despite calling myself a "Trapper main". I eventually dropped him too not because of any particular reason that has to do with him (I still like playing him, though I enjoyed the two modes Doc a lot more), but simply because my next main released and hooked me (pun partially intended):
My third main who stayed my main up until I quit this game in August 2021 was Deathslinger. Now I think it is quite obvious why he is no longer on the list of characters I play: he got absolutely gutted by BHVR.
And finally my current main, alias the only Killer I can find any enjoyment in as of right now, is Dredge. Ever since I returned with the anniversary event it is the only character that I can play as without feeling an immediate burnout from the game - I am having some serious Deathslinger vibes right now (in terms of enjoyment), which in return greatly worries me that they might do to Dredgie what they did to Slinger.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3034004#Comment_3034004
J-Flick doesn't exist anymore, now we have what we call "Z-Flick", which is intended by the devs.
But it existed and it was an confirmed exploit that was used commonly, therefore it made sense to give it in this example.
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I always get excited seeing it.
But some people will always find an excuse to hate on Dredgie. It's the same for any Killer, really.
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Honestly, I think his basekit is fine.
Where he gets too strong is when either running strong Add Ons (such as Compound Thirty Three, Alchemist Ring, etc.) or abusing exploits / bugs with his power (such as "hugtech", "J-Flick", etc.).
So honestly, just a bit of an Add On overhaul and bug fixes.
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I've had such a frustrating weekend with DbD that I havent played this week yet.
Dunno, might go in tomorrow to get some challenges done - the hope is that maybe its gonna be less sweaty during the week than it was on Saturday / Sunday...
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It's still a completely free third healthstate you get any time you want it, all you gotta do is time it differently now.
I do not think this Perk is going to be drastically weaker than the version we have now - maybe a bit more difficult to use, but still very strong.
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They don't want a balanced DbD alltogether, because they know that a balanced DbD is an unfun DbD.
I've made a very lengthy post about this some time ago, I'll link it to you in case you want to get more insight on why I feel this way:
@Mister_xD said:
Prologue
Hello everyone,
First of all, this is not actually a post that I really wanted to make. As some of you will probaply know, I no longer play this game, so my enthusiasm for it has dwindled too. I have just not been having the motivation to make a long post like this one for a long while now, though I did write down the thoughts from this post in earlier comments already, just in a less detailed form.
Ever since i quit DbD in August 2021, I have been reflecting on why I quit and after discovering the reasons, decided to dig a bit deeper and find the reasons for those reasons. And I do think that I managed to figure out an issue this game has that I barely see anyone talk about, yet sooo many things people do talk about and discuss end up being direct consequences of this one, bigger thing.
So I did decide to make this post eventually, simply to shed some light onto what I believe to be, by far, Dead by Daylights biggest problem right now. The "root of all evil", if you will.
Also I am not saying this was DbD's only issue, there are some others that are very much seperated from this one that are important too (e.g. the discrepancy in strength between solo Survivors and SWF groups), but I believe this one to have the biggest impact on the game as of right now. And do keep in mind that this is my opinion, it is very possible that some of you might view other things as more important issues than this one.
The Issue
I'll be straight forward and tell you the problem right away:
The Survivors objective is unfun and boring.
Now before you go in the comments and start calling me crazy, please read my reasoning for this being DbDs biggest issue first. It is a lot more complicated than this one sentence might make it look like.
How to balance an asymmetrical game
I know this might seem off topic, but trust me, this is very important for later.
Dead by Daylight can be split into two seperate "games":
- The "Macrogame" (referring to the overall trial and its progression)
- The "Microgame" (referring to interactions between both sides)
The way we can create a balanced experience for both sides is, by making each side dominate on of those two cathegories, but as a result of that be weak in the other.
Essentially, this game boils down to both sides racing each other by pushing their strong suit and hoping that they can finish their objective before the other side has been able to finish theirs.
Due to this being an asymmetrical game, the side that has less players in one round (Killers) needs to be the dominant side in the Microgame, while the opposing side (Survivors) gets to dominate the Macrogame.
This makes sense, given the Survivors superior numbers that allow them to apply pressure on the Killer in multiple different locations, which the Killer can not contest due to them only being able to be in one place at a time.
To make this fair for the Killer, they need to have the upper hand in this 1v1 interaction, so that they don't waste much time on this one Survivor and can instead go and pressure the team after dealing with them quickly. This is also why they are referred to as "the powerrole", even though they themselves arent any more powerful than the Survivor side is, but they feel very powerful due to the fact that they heavily outclass an individual Survivor.
In other words, a balanced Dead by Daylight would be a game where Killers dominate in chases, whereas Survivors dominate in generator progression, with the deciding factor being who can be more efficient in "their game" of DbD and outperform the other side.
How the Issue affects DbD's balance
In a balanced Dead by Daylight, as discussed above, long chases do not exist. Killers dominate in this aspect, so Survivors will want to avoid chases altogether, focussing their gameplay on generators.
But generators are no fun. No one wants to focus their entire gameplay on holding M1 and occasionally hitting space bar - understandably so.
If this game were to ever be in a balanced state, Survivors would be the ones quitting out of boredom. And since Survivors are just as essential to this game as Killers are, while also making a majority of its playerbase simply because of the 4v1 nature of this game, this would be very bad news.
This is also something that I believe the Devs are very aware of. They have stated multiple times in the past now that they have no intention of balancing Dead by Daylight to make it fair, but to make it "fun".
But what does that mean exactly?
What is the one thing you think of when you talk about "fun" in Dead by Daylight? - It's chases.
Chases are a fast and easy way of bringing action into this, otherwise very boring, game. They are full of fast paced interactions between both sides and you need to think on the run to make the right call in order to avoid certain death at the Killers hands.
As a result the Devs have started balancing DbD around chases - some people might even refer to chases as Dead by Daylight in its entirety, completely forgetting that there is more to it outside of them.
While this is a very understandable decision made by the Devs, it is also one that brings major imbalances with it.
The result(s)
Due to the Devs focussing their resources on making chases a fair, interactive and balanced encounter for both sides, Killers feel very weak to play.
Remember what I said earlier about how to balance an asymmetrical game - Survivors need to dominate in the Macrogame, while Killers need to dominate in the Microgame.
But this is no longer the case. The reality of DbD is, that Survivors dominate the Killer in the Macrogame, as they were designed to, and are equal to them in the Microgame, while on the flip side Killers get dominated in the Macrogame, as they should, but are only equal to Survivors in the Microgame.
By balancing this game around the 1v1 aspect of it, the Devs took away the Killers strongsuit. Killers now struggle immensly to compete with Survivors, especially since those Survivors can hardly be nerfed in their strongsuit, due to that being a direct result of their superior numbers. Simply put Killers can not end their chases quick enough to properly race Survivors who focus on generatos, meaning any time the Survivor team is working on generators efficiently the Killer will most likely lose.
As a result the game becomes frustrating to its Killer playerbase, because any time they go up against a team of Survivors with an equal skilllevel to theirs, they are heavily outclassed simply due to this game being tilted in the Survivors favor as much as it is.
For Killers to be able to win, they need to be on a higher skilllevel than the Survivors are, so that the Killer makes less mistakes than the Survivors and can punish their mistakes more efficiently.
And this leads us to a very modern problem, namely that this essentially rules out the existance of MMR systems in a game like this - at least functional ones.
There are two possible outcomes with an MMR system in DbD right now:
- The system works and puts players of equal skill against each other. In this case Killers are heavily outmatched and will lose a majority of their games (unless Survivors make a huge, game losing, mistake, but for the sake of the argument we have to assume both sides play equally well), which feels unfair and bad for the Killers. Additionally, the high end Survivors would have no opponents, because Killers can not compete at this stage, which results in very long lobby queue times for them.
- The system doesnt work and puts players of varying skill against one another. In this case Killers would get to fight lesser experienced players as well, which allows them to win those games, which feels unfair and bad for those Survivors, as they feel outmatched.
This means no matter what happens, this is a lose-lose scenario. This is also why I keep saying that the most basic requirement for a functional MMR system is a balanced game, which DbD can not (and will probaply never) offer.
Another very common complaint by the Killerplayerbase today is, that gens are completed too fast. That however is not actually the case, it's that they are too slow at killing the Survivors.
And as I explained above, this is essentially an unfixable problem. There are two possible solutions to it, which equally don't work:
- Make Killers the strong chasers they are supposed to be to be able to rival the gen speeds - this one turns Survivor gameplay into a hold M1 simulator, making it extremely unfun for them to play.
- Make gens take longer to complete - this one makes Survivors sit on gens, holding down M1, even longer than they already have to, at which point no one is having fun anymore because of how sluggish the game has become.
Both of these fail entirely at the non interactive nature of generators.
And there are more, but we would still be here tomorrow if I went into detail on all of them, so I'll make it short. Here is a list of other issues that are directly linked to this one with a brief explanation:
- Maps having too many timewasters for Killers on them or generally not allowing for much map pressure (Pallets and Windows are what Survivors have to have fun in chases, to maximise fun and fairness in chases we need a bunch of them and make it so whoever mindgames who wins)
- A vast majority of the Killer roster being unviable in high level play (only viable options are Killers with strong chase related abilities to at least sometimes put Survivors in a lose-lose situation they can profit from, who also have good map pressure to fight generator speeds - e.g. Nurse and Blight)
- Killers getting nerfed who did not need a nerf (strong chase ability = unfun match for Survivors, therefore they get nerfed. This is what happened to Deathslinger or the Twins Toy Sword Add On)
- Killers being forced to run a bunch of slowdown Perks (essentially a futile attempt to force solution 2. from gens being done too fast. As explained above it makes the game miserably boring for Survivors, but is a necessary evil currently)
- Camping & Tunneling being such popular strategies (eliminating one player early on makes the Survivor teams overall map pressure take a huge hit, which can allow the Killer to relax a bit more. Not doing this is pretty much a lost trial. This is a result of gen speeds, which are a result of their unfun nature)
- Playing Killer being significantly more stressful than playing Survivor (you essentially have to play perfect to beat even just a mediocre team. The smallest mistake can cost you the entire game, due to a chase being extended too long and you therefore getting crushed in the Macrogame)
While not all of those might be a direct result of generators being boring, they are all linked to it in some way. Basically, the boring nature of gens caused the Devs flawed balance philosophy, which is what stops us from properly addressing those issues.
If we ever want to properly fix those problems, we need to address generators first. If we don't, all we achieve is trading one problematic thing for another.
What is the Solution?
A complete rework of the Survivors main objective.
We need to get rid of the excruciatingly boring gameplay that is holding down M1 while waiting for a progress bar to fill up - and this is not exclusive to generators by the way, all of the Survivors objectives are this boring, whether that be exit gate switches, totems (cleansing and blessing), healing, chest searching - they are all the same.
Of course these progress bars serve a purpose. These objectives are meant to be timewasters first and foremost, it is necessary that the Survivors spend a good amount of their time on doing them to allow the Killer to find and hunt them down.
So a reworked Survivor objective would need to be both time consuming and interactive for them at the same time.
It is not until this is achieved that we can properly address so many of the other, much more noticeable, issues that plague this game today.
This being said, personally I don't think this is a realistic demand to make.
Generators are one of the most fundamental mechanics in this game and they have existed for almost 6 years at this point without any major changes to them and with a total of 27 DLCs (some bigger than others ofc) that further change the game and, in many cases, directly rely on this mechanic or further add to it.
There are Perks on both sides directly tied to generator progress bars and there are some Killer powers that also rely on Survivors being on gens (such as Freddies teleport or the Doctors Madness Skill Checks) that would need to be addressed if gens were to be fundamentally reworked.
This absolutely does not mean it was impossible to address, however it would require a huge amount of time, ressources and effort from BHVRs side.
And I mean this when I say it, but I definitely think that at this point it would be easier for them to just work on a Dead by Daylight 2 and redesign it from the ground up with this in mind, rather than to try and somehow fix the current game (also due to spaghetti code that further hinders this).
However, I would definitely not mind being proven wrong on this. Though it would be a long and tedious process, I believe the game would greatly benefit from it in the long run.
And they can start small, not tackle the whole thing at once, but maybe start by doing one thing and see how it plays out. For example, rework the Exit Gates to no longer require you to hold M1 next to the switch until a progress bar is filled, but make it require fuses that the Survivors need to collect and insert - each fuse lights up one bulb and 3 fuses open the gate up. It would be significantly more interactive for both sides and it would get rid of people 99%ing the gates (another common complaint you hear a lot). You can also do something entirely different, the most important thing is that something is done.
Afterword
Thanks for reading this, admittedly very long, post. Might be my longest one yet, its definitely the one I put the most work into.
What do you think of this? Do you think I'm right? Or do you think I'm entirely wrong? Did i miss anything crucial? Please tell me down below!
Also please keep in mind this post is not meant to give solutions to this issue, but soley to highlight it - though if you think you got a good sulution to it you can share it down below too / make your own post about it! The more ideas we can give the Devs on this the better. I also deliberately did not post it in the Feedback subforum, as it is not meant to be feedback to the Devs, but as a bit of an explanation to where I believe the game stands right now and why certain things are happening to it for the community - as stated above, I do believe the Devs are very keenly aware of this issue already (and have been for a long time now).
Have a nice day / night and I'll see you next time!
also revert the Slinger nerfs, k thx bye.
(its just too long to write out again, sorry)
So instead of balancing the game and reworking the problematic parts, they chose the path with the least resistance and just went with whatever makes the most people happy, accepting the collateral damage that would cause (which is the higher skilled players suffering).
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I wanna know if you can activate DHs endurance and then perform actions such as vaulting while it's active.
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No, they are too inconsistent for my liking.
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Yeah I've really gotten into Dredge, but outside of that I find nothing else the Killer roster has to be appealing.
I freshly P3ed Dredgie yesterday and the Blood web RNG has NOT been kind to me so I have literally nothing I could run on it right now, meaning I had to play other Killers yesterday evening to make some BP - and oh boy 4 games of 3+ Dead Hards, coordinated SWFs and pretty bad maps in a row and I was reminded why I quit this game in the first place.
Seriously, all my favorite Killers are either way too weak to compete so I just get bullied (Trapper, Doctor, Deathslinger) and / or have been done so dirty by BHVR that I just can not play them anymore because they are no fun (Hillbilly, Deathslinger).
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@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3027146#Comment_3027146
Yeah but if you would be hit mid vault animation, regardless of which type of vault, and you’re injured then the killer gets a grab instead, but Endurance doesn’t stop grabs.
Killers can not grab you out of fastvaults.
Maybe if you are vaulting into the Killer, but if you are vaulting away from them I do not believe a grab from a fastvault is possible. At least I have never seen one happen ever since they introduced the multiple vaulting types. And I do believe the old grabbing animation for when only one vault type existed (fastvaults) where the Killer grabs the Survivor at their foot and pulls them back in has since been retired.
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@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3027113#Comment_3027113
Well if they have the right pathing for a fast vault in the first place then it wouldn’t matter if they had Endurance or not, they’d get through unhit eiher way.
No you can absolutely hit people during fastvaults.
Thats the whole thing I'm on about: Survivors will still be able to greed a loop and make actions that they should not have been able to using just this Perk, so they could affort to be in the Killers range for a while, because the Killer won't be able to attack them just like it is the case now (they'd E the attack, which has an increased punishment for the Killer now AND it won't screw them if they do it in a bad spot, because they are no longer dashing into one direction that might screw them out of a loop / force a medium vault on them), but they might potentially even be able to have DHs effect during an animation lock now, which previously wasn't the case.
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@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3026193#Comment_3026193
You forgot that Endurance doesn’t protect against grabs. The current version allows you to lunge forward to be entirely out of reach of a killer when you vault so there’s no possibility of a grab. This new version doesn’t do that, if the killer is close to you when you trigger Dead Hard and then vault they’ll be able to grab you during the vault animation. This isn’t an uncommon scenario, either, a lot of current Dead Hard lunges are literally lunges for distance when a killer is almost but not quite in range to swing and the survivor is almost but not quite to a window.
That is true, but only for slow and medium vault scenarios.
With the right pathing, a Survivor would be able to fastvault and trigger DH right before that to, in theory, have the endurance status effect throughout the vault as well.
Now of course, we don't know the details on how this will work. Maybe the Devs have thought of this and removed the Survivors ability to interact with things during this second of Endurance, in which case this is a non concern. But that remains to be seen.
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Yeah seeing how I was on a seminar the whole week and couldn't participate at all I would definitely appreciate an extension!
Also we seem to be struggling at completing the community challenges, so thats all the more reason to root for this!
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@FlameGNG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3023934#Comment_3023934
Yea didnt think of doung generators close to lockers first... Now the game had a suicide so i dont even think doing the W pallet would haev saved it since my friend i played with is kinda new and the other dude didnt really do anything... Now for locking the lockers i obviously did that but it only saves you once.
Since its fairly hard to find all 7 gens on the game without spending minutes looking i literally just take the first gen i can find :p But several people said to do those gens first which makes sense but i just havent thought of it so i will give it a shot. The last part "Unless your forced to do it" As i said that was kinda what happened but im gonna prevent it from happening in the future i guess its kinda like the killer getting a good 3 gen its mostly the survivors fault ;)
Thanks for your time!
Yeah an early hook suicide / DC is usually an immediate game over for the Survivor team. That's why I hate them so much - especially combined with the SoloQ experience you just described where you pair up with lesser exxperienced players that therefore have a much harder time to try and turn the game around. My best advise here is to just not take those games serious. You lost, so just go and have some fun - you know it was neither your nor your teams fault (referring to the 2 that remained - its 100% the ragequitters fault), so don't let it drag you down, you did your best.
And I completely get what you said about not finding gens, it can be really difficult on that map. That said, there are a couple of tricks you can use to navigate indoor maps and look out for gens from a distance - in The Game any time you see a closed off large metal door, there is guaranteed to be a generator next to it, so keep an eye out for those. In the Treatment Theatre you can spot generators by looking out for the rooms electric signs and when they are blinking instead of normally glowing, an unrepaired generator is in that room.
As for facing Dredge on The Game specifically, I would say there are overall 2 generators you need to look out for:
- The meatgrinder generator you were mentioning upstairs
- The bathroom generator next to the basement downstairs
So any time you see you go up against a Dredge on this particular map, make sure to contest these generators first before it gets a snowball going.
Also, and this is a bit of a lesser known fact, but any time you see a group of lockers next to one another, you only need to lock one of the two, as the Dredge has a, IMO questionable, mechanic where it is guaranteed to enter the locked locker when teleporting to this group of lockers, allowing you to essentially lock them as many times as you have lockers there.
Good luck with your next The Game Dredge! :D
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On The Game especially all you really have to do to counter it is to resort to the usual The Game gameplay and hold Shift + W while occasionally predropping one of the 50 availble god pallets whenever it gets close. Dredges anti loop is good, but only when one tries to loop the same structure against it.
Additionally, lock the lockers. Since there are a lot of them and navigating the map is rather difficult, it is extremely difficult for the Killer to remove the locks without throwing the game, while not doing it will significantly hinder it in chases / when trying to traverse the map otherwise.
As for the picture you drew, that is a rather favourable generator for the Dredge.
You should focus on repairing this generator first while you still have many ressources (in form of available hook and health states) and are capable of locking the lockers. If this generator remains as one of the last ones, you should ignore it unless you're forced to do it.
There are plenty of generators available that are significantly less favourable for Dredge, so you should focus on the difficult ones first to not risk running into a roadblock in the very end by having a bunch of very risky generators left.
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Revert Deathslinger to his original state.