Balancing DBD to high MMR is possible, but I'm afraid the developers don't want that
hello,
I expect this topic will upset many here, but I just want to be honest and say what I think.
"Why does BHVR listen to the casuals rather than the high MMR players when it comes to balancing? Simple: the casuals, or at least the majority of the playerbase, are the majority, right?
That's a question I've heard a lot. It's understandable why they would think that. They are the largest part, so of course they should be more important. Anything else would be unfair, in the BHVR's view.
At the end of the day, the majority of the casual community is not good enough for this game. Let's not kid ourselves. We know this to be true. I can give so many different examples of why it's a bad idea for BHVR to strike a balance based on casual games.
In my opinion, most of the community is extremely divided. It often can't really agree on anything unless it's something they hate, and even then the decision on what exactly they hate is split.
Back to the topic
A streamer once gave a good example with a perk: Take Overcharge. The skill check is not really a problem for experienced players and is easy to do. We all know that, but for players with low MMR it looks different. So when balancing, you would have to work on the respective perks as well, right? This means that if the developers made the skill check even harder, it would be more frustration than joy for the majority of players.
That's one of the reasons why developers focus on balancing the majority of the community. That's how I see it, too. What do you guys think? Do you think it's better to balance the game based on feedback from players with high MMR?
Let's discuss
Comments
Low to mid MMR - 99% players
High MMR: 1% Players
i see it a bit differently. High MMR 10%
At the end of the day, the majority of the casual community is not good enough for this game.
I don't really like the wording of that. Maybe "They aren't skilled enough to play the game to its full extent and potential".
In any case, the game SHOULD be balanced for high MMR. For most games, balancing is primarily geared towards the high end, and the meta and strats of that high end trickle down to the more casual players. DbD isn't really that much different. It may take a bit longer in DbD, but it happens. Not too long ago, Nurse was considered fine because she has a steep learning curve. Now everyone (anecdotally) goes up against a god Nurse every game that may or may not have kissed their dad without anyones express permission.
When you balance for the casual audience, things get overlooked and abused by the top end of players. Those abuses trickle down to the casual audience, and you end up with a mechanic that was fine when people didn't know how to abuse it, but now everyone does.
No harder skill check I already broke my controller because of that so I don't want to break another and also I want to play mindlessly not really focus when I play survivor and do something else at the same time. Killer is when I try hard and survivor is for relaxing.
They don't want a balanced DbD alltogether, because they know that a balanced DbD is an unfun DbD.
I've made a very lengthy post about this some time ago, I'll link it to you in case you want to get more insight on why I feel this way:
(its just too long to write out again, sorry)
So instead of balancing the game and reworking the problematic parts, they chose the path with the least resistance and just went with whatever makes the most people happy, accepting the collateral damage that would cause (which is the higher skilled players suffering).
I follow you completely, but the game of survivors has changed over the years. Today, after all, everything revolves around: make the generators as fast as possible and escape. Unfortunately, that's all it is anymore
Games should be balanced with all their players in mind, not just the top few percent. This goes for any game, not just DBD.
Even the high mmr players miss ds sometimes. I hit it 95% of the time but that 5% is still annoying and usually because lag.
"Killer is when I'm exerting myself, and Survivor is for relaxing." It should be the other way around
We do not balance for any group of players in particular. The game's for everyone, not just the top 1%. If doing something to make the game more enjoyable for the 1% at the top would make it less enjoyable for the other 99% of players, it's probably doing more harm than good.
I'll share this graph that we've had floating around recently again, but have a look at the width of the lines:
The width shows the number of matches. You'll notice that the vast, vast majority of them are in the middle of the pack. Meanwhile on the top ends, that decreases dramatically (4,227 times less). While these are for perks, the actual distribution of players in terms of matchmaking ratings are very similar. You see a lot of people in the middle, but very few at the ends.
(Prefacing this by saying that this is by no means to call anyone in particular out:) Realistically, a lot of people place themselves higher than they really are. Loads of people claim to be at the top, but there's no way that everyone claiming to be up there actually is. And that's okay! It doesn't matter if you're at the top or in the middle, or even low. Your opinion still matters as much as anyone else.
Truth is, no changes matter for REAL casuals which consists of majority in this game, really.
They might win more, lose more, or doesn't change at all, but none of casual players care.
That's true reason why catering to them is just wrong, they'll stick here no matter what, what's the point in balancing for those kind of people?
What does "abused" mean? The only reason the survivors are currently so pissed at the nurse is because the killers are fed up and have found something that makes it difficult for the survivors to escape. It's just not a killer you can turn over 100 times. As long as the survivors are having fun, everything is fine, but when the killer is having fun, it's a different story, isn't it? Unfortunately, this has become a reality.
I understand, but even the devs use the term 1% to represent the high MMR, majority of all players are nowhere near it, seems it is actually less than 1%
"It doesn't matter if you're at the top or in the middle, or even low. Your opinion still matters as much as anyone else."
This is a beautiful sentence with which I fully agree
Sometimes it is when you completely dominate like agains't potato survivors. But as survivor I don't care if I die or not that much as lot debends on your team but as killer you're alone and you have to make your own success.
"The DEV aren't interested in balancing the game for any group in particular."
This is not true. The devs want the game to be balanced for low and middle tier skill players.
The problem is that this lack of balance at high MMR creates the problem of tunneling/camping/slugging. Go against a strong team and you lose if you don't "behave badly" as a survivor main would say.
This creates a scenario where killers learn : if I don't camp/tunnel/slug -then I will be punished.
You do extremely little that balances the game for the people that are regularly playing against high MMR survivors. Do I claim to be the top 1%? I do not. Do I play against the top 20% of players as killer? Yes I do - I see tournament players regularly.
There are almost zero balance measures against High MMR play. You ONLY balance the game for low/middle rank players because that's the majority of the player base. The goal should be to nerf high MMR play where survivors escape way too often without affecting low/mid tier players.
There's an extremely easy fix for this: Make killers and survivors have the same size collision box. This would make looping essentially identical for low level players because they aren't doing it well anyway. It would make looping inefficient at high levels of play so that even the best players only get 10-20 seconds extra in a chase instead of 30-60 extra seconds. Middle tier players would still get a few loops before they need to throw the pallet.
"Abused" means using a Perk or mechanic in a way that likely wasn't intentional in order to get a greater advantage from it. A simply example would be when Survivors used to tap the hook in order to force the Killer to hit instead of grab, which would ensure they could get the unhook.
I was using Nurse as an example of how issues with the high end eventually became a casual problem. The insane speed of heal builds can also go into here. Camping, while always an issue, essentially exploded after a few tourneys showed that it was the tourney method of securing kills. It went from 1 in every 10-15 matches to 1-5, sometimes higher. Even Survivors scattering to each solo a gen was originally more of a high end strat that has now become common practice in the casual bracket on account of Depip Squad videos showing how well it worked. Killers are lucky that casual players still don't think Lucky Break is very good, despite how you can bring a medkit and just heal to turn it off after completely losing the Killer and getting free chase wins in nearly every scenario.
There are a myriad of common strats and unintended Perk usages that started in the higher end of players that made their way down. They are now problems for everyone. If the game had been more balanced towards the high end, these problems would have been addressed much sooner.
Wait a minute, who has to survive? The survivor or the killer? If I'm being hunted, it should be more stressful for me, not the other way around, sry.
The problem is that there is almost no balance measures at high MMR. Look at high level play and you see:
1) gens done in 3-5 minutes with almost no variation
2) pixel perfect looping. This is a problem for every killer that isn't nurse /blight
3) most of the hook states are completed after all the gens are completed. If survivors played like Marh's team in his experiments they could achieve a 75% escape rate nearly 100% of the time.
That's the cosmic joke. Survivor is both the more numerous player and the power player. Survivors became "entitled" when they became accustomed to easy wins during the infinite window loop era.
DBD needs to get to a point where someone says : Oh no it's Doctor, Clown, Trapper, Michael Myers - with the same gravity they would say Blight/Nurse.
DBD has a problem retaining killers. It happens likely as a result of the fact that killer becomes unplayable at a certain point unless you are playing the top killers. What happens if Superman dies? Batman has to take his place. Batman can do a lot but he isn't superman. Whenever a high rank killer quits it makes someone not ready for the role have to carry the weight of playing with high MMR survivors.
It's extremely not fun. In times past you could just load into a game press escape and quit. Do that enough times and you were back to "0 MMR". Or you could let everyone bleed out - and the game said you lost because during that time non hook kills did not "count".
Almost all of the killers in DBD are completely unplayable at high MMR (there are exceptions like when you are playing aimbot huntress because your name is CoconutRTS). That sucks. All of your killers are linked to your best killer's MMR. So what happens is that eventually you can only play 2-4 killers and everyone else may as well not exist.
"As long as the survivors are having fun, everything is fine, but when the killer is having fun, it's a different story, isn't it?"
DBD is a problematic game because when side A completes their goals it means side B gets fewer points and they just lost a goal. Survivors get mad that they generally only see two killers at high MMR. But they already had their fun getting to that point and are now not willing to "face the music."
Nurse and Blight are the fair killers. All of the cast needs to be upped to their level. Killer needs to be the power role in chases.
...Wait, what does any of that have to do with my statement?
"Games should be balanced with all their players in mind"
That means games should be balanced with high/mid/low players - not just low/mid.
DBD only balances killer for low/mid tier experiences. So you either quit or change to Nurse/Blight.
DBD currently balances for all players, as far as I can see; it just hasn't done enough recently to tackle problems in the mid tier.
Which, ftr, is probably where you and the vast majority of other posters are. That's not an insult, we just know there are very few people at the MMR cap and it's not exactly hard to just say "oh yeah I'm at high MMR and it's miserable".
Anyway, if your take is that high MMR should be kept in mind too, given exactly equal weight to all other players, I agree. After all, that was the point I was making!
Most games balance around the high end because, more often than not, changes for better balance towards them brings more balance towards the audience at large. Especially in games that center around a competitive game mode. Changes made on account of what is going on in high tier play tend to be beneficial for all tiers of play. High tier is simply where any problematic mechanics are most likely to be noticed and abused/suffered, so it acts as a sort of megaphone.
Why do the first sentances cancel each other out?
Most of the people I play against are in the 2,000 to 5,000 hour range. I regularly play against DBD tournament team players.
"if your take is that high MMR should be kept in mind too, given exactly equal weight to all other players, I agree"
That is not the sentiment I took from your message.
I'm not sure how I could've been more clear- I responded to the statement that DBD should be balanced for its highest players with the statement that it should be balanced for all players. That includes the highest tiers, it just doesn't favour them over anyone else.
a little reality would not hurt you
allright
How? Someone who doesn’t play much/ is just beginning doesn’t know what’s going on. Would you listen to someone’s opinion on architecture just because they started taking a basic class? Everyone’s word does not carry equal weight. That’s the reality. A survivor who plays 1-2 hours after work twice a week doesn’t know how to exploit jungle gyms or break free of pinhead chains; that doesn’t mean that these things are balanced or imbalanced. It means the survivor has no clue what’s going on. The game should not be balanced around players like that. Experienced players shouldn’t be punished for others.
Everyone was new once, even if you're an absolute legend now. Ignoring the problems that new players face is the fastest way to make them quit the game out of frustration before they can build up some experience. That's not to say we should balance solely around new players, but often times their feedback can highlight where the onboarding (teaching a new player the game) could be better. More often than not, this comes down to improving the feedback while playing against something rather than balance changes.
But ignoring anyone's opinions just because they're not as good as you is never the answer. Elitism doesn't help anyone. The game's for everyone, not just the top X%.
Personally I don't want balancing around the high people
Rainbow six siege does it and results In boring balancing
I just don't want to play bully simulator as killer nor be punish for my teams actions because MMR match me with them who just hid in corner an self care. High or low is pain regardless of sides.
Forum members who think they are in High MMR - 97%
Forum members who actually are in High MMR - 61.5%
- data based on nothing at all but gut
feeling
How about a little consideration for us low to mid MMR killers that are routinely getting matched up against multi thousand hour SWFs? Make those teams wait for Nurse and Blight because they're the only ones that can deal with it. Stop matching me against them when I'm playing console Trickster. Thanks.
who cares if youre good at DBD??
like literally no one cares, just have fun.
I can understand your sentiment, but it's an online pvp multiplayer game. You're always going to be punished by both your teammates and the opposition is always going to punish you for any mistakes you make.
Take for example, League of Legends, one of the most successful online competitive games in history. You're constantly put with people that you don't feel are good enough to play on your level, and your opponents almost always feel like pros that punish your every mistake, kill you 10 times and hit you with CY@ or spam mastery emote after every one of your deaths. Heck Halo was built on 12 year olds that teabag and tell you random odd facts about your mother.
It's the nature of online games. It sucks every time. And as much as a developer tries to mitigate that unfun aspect of it, it's still going to be there.
They're trying to. They stated that in the patch notes and live stream. The imbalance of players can cause matchmaking to be a bit imbalanced as it tries to both balance matches but also keep queue times healthy. Which is why they're giving incentives to players for queue up for a role that is in need of players at certain times, to help take some of the load off the system.
Because of you just narrow the brackets for MMR more regardless of queue times, you end up with situations like other online multiplayer games for instance, League of legends. If you've never been master-grandmaster tier in that game and tried to queue up, it's horrendous. 30-40 sometimes even 60 minute waits times to queue for a match. Just for someone to back out before the game starts and you end up going back to waiting. No thank you! Lol
In my experience, balance changes made around the highest tier results in overly technical, impenetrable, and generally anti-fun gameplay. The practice killed Overwatch and the entire RTS genre - both things that were at high points during the era of "big boom kaboom shooty" spectacle and memes and entered lowpoints when it started to try and focus on appeasing people who play professionally.
Definitely even more than that. It's too easy to reach high MMR in this game, especially on killer.
The devs have stated numerous times that very few are at "high MMR". Losing games or encountering better players does not mean someone has reached high MMR.
The truth of the matter is the top tier players, not those who think they are, but those who really are, cannot support this game. That's right, there are not enough of them, period.
It somewhat amazes me how this elitist movement in video games has really spread over the past 30 years. 99% of the online games out there are vastly supported financially by the casual fan and middle of the road performer. If a company caters to the top 1 to 3%, they lose in most cases.
DbD is a casual party game. It is not a competitive esport style game. (Don't try selling me a pile of rocks by describing the competition aspects of the game, Go Fish has competitive aspects but I don't see million dollar tournaments and ESPN 8 covering it.) There is zero reason to cater to the top 1%.
Oh, and what is up with the person who claimed that casual players in this game don't have the skills to play this game? Talk about the most bloated statement I may have ever heard on this site, that may be it. Do you go to the beach and judge whether children's sand castles are up to par as well? Maybe go knock over a backgammon table at the nursing home as well for their lack of skills. Seriously, this is a joke game meant for jump scares and fun. Take a breathe, your elite status is recognized by nobody who cares. lol
It'd still be better to just go back to ranks/grades cause everyone could play and enjoy and most people didn't care from what I saw anyway.
I've never played Dead by Daylight at a party
Except that most major developers do balance around top level of play. They do just fine and the games are better balanced
I love your entire comment, but in particular the imagery of flipping a backgammon table because the older folk aren't skilled enough lol
Again, if none of this matters, then why nerf any killer or survivor tactic? The pure and simple truth is that people want to win and feel badass without having to try. To which i’d say, play a single player game. You’re not entitled to win against someone who has been playing longer.
The hard point to balance in this game is "fun". Thus why they struggle with the camping and tunneling. The killer often finds themselves needing to tunnel the first person out to slow things down. That person does not really get a chance to play or do much. So, they are trying to adjust things so the killer does not need to do that to slow things down and the player can stand a better chance if they are tunneled.
There is a logic there, but not an easy thing to balance.
Those are the exception not the rule. The games that do that tend to be the ones on the competitive scene with a lot of money riding on top tier players. Less than .1% of games fall under that category. Those games are also not asymmetrical.
This comes down to a completely different issue then balancing for a certain skill bracket of players. It’s not even relevant to argue about the skill brackets of players that previous or upcoming changes are targeted at.
The point should be that they focus on a lot of the wrong things while ignoring a lot of the bad things for various reasons.
Often the decisions they make aim to do one thing but end up encouraging exactly that issue.
As mere players we can’t really tell why this weird way of working happens so regularly, but there’s clearly a dissonance between some departments of the dev team and how changes get communicated to the players.
This often creates an environment where we players don’t feel seen and the developers probably like their work isn’t appreciated.
They finally need to change up some of the fundamental flaws of the game like map tile rng, information discrepancy between solo and swf, unevenly balanced killers before doing more of these minor gameplay changes.
We’re just constantly going down a spiral of changes that don’t take on the core issues. The game will always stay unfun for certain groups of players if the foundation never gets fixed.
Absolutely pointless to argue about what kind of skill the game should be balanced around if there’s no common ground they even could do that balancing around.
Btw you should never balance around competitive play in a game that’s not supposed to be played evenly, which asymmetrical games aren’t by design.
Competitive play for asymmetrical games is flawed by default. There’s a reason we don’t do asymmetrical sports either.
Quoting statistics doesn't suddenly make nerfing things or buffing the right decision nor does it mean anything is weak. Nurse has terrible stats, picks, kill rates yet is literally the most busted killer in the game and no one is disillusioned to that. The only defense around her is ya'll not knowing that statistics are meaningless without -context- and that the initial hurdle of wheezing deters people because a lot of people want instant gratification. Some of the changes are great but ya'll are incredibly short sighted and ignore things that the playerbase says for years. So that'll be really fun to see even more exploited than before. You don't have to balance around the top whatever percent. You do however have to actually take into account things that are absolutely detrimental to balance design for the game overall and then take into account how things can be -abused-. It only seems like that is done after the fact and seldom is that after the fact immediate. Several of these changes were suggested years ago.
And daily reminder: There's still a chat filter on the game that makes it impossible to have a conversation. Another great testament to the quality standard and completely missing the point of what players actually were after when they simply wanted people that were racist/giving death threats in end game chat to get punished. Instead, a lazy filter that is put to shame by ones in browser games and has been that way for what, like two years now?
And this is the problem... Despite you can hear everyone's thoughts on the game, you shouldn't take decisions based on what inexperienced people will say... For example a newcomer to the game will easily tell you that every killer in dbd is overpowered due to the fact that he doesn't have the needed knowledge to play somewhat efficiently (they even found unfair that the default killer has 4.6 of movement speed) ... You can't clearly balance to the opposite direction of veteran tryharders either since everyone who isn't at their level will suffer greatly for the things that they can suggest... The best idea would be to take a middle ground between those groups, where you can find people that aren't clueless about the gameplay mechanics and know how to play with randoms but that aren't gods at the game...