Mister_xD
Mister_xD
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I think all the meme builds I used to run got removed at this point...
There's two that i really enjoyed:
- The "Get away from me Doc", which was Doctor with 4 Perks that would debuff Survivors in my Terror Radius (Unnerving Presence for smaller skillchecks, Overwhelming Presence for double item burn rate, Coulrophobia for half healing speed and i forgot the last one - might have just been Distressing?) and being in Treatment Mode pretty much 24/7 (unless currently in chase ofc), so anyone near me would get a huge amount of debuffs, as well as madness slowly building up. This was removed when they removed Docs Punishment and Treatment Modes in favor of the, IMHO much more boring, Static Blast.
- The "Impostor Survivor" builds on Cannibal. There were 4 possible builds here, but they all boiled down to equipping a Survivors face, renaming your account to "Definitely [insert Survivor name]" and running 4 Perks that played into the stereotype of this Survivor, but achieved the opposite - e.g. Claudette is the healer, so you equip 4 anti healing Perks. Then in the Trial you would run around and "cosplay" as the Survivor. Stuff like helping your team work on gens faster as Dwight (but in reality crashing the party and murdering anyone apresent) or helping your injured friends as Claudette (while in reality relentlessly sniffing out their locations with Bloodhound and making healing around you impossible). This was removed when they removed the unlockable Cannibal faces.
Technically speaking both are still possible, but they are more clunky now. Cosplaying as a Survivor doesn't really make a whole lot of sense if you can not disguise as them anymore and the debuff Doc is a lot less usable since you no longer get a consistent madness increase for being near him.
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That would certainly bring me one step closer to reinstalling.
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@Mister_xD said:
Prologue
Hello everyone,
First of all, this is not actually a post that I really wanted to make. As some of you will probaply know, I no longer play this game, so my enthusiasm for it has dwindled too. I have just not been having the motivation to make a long post like this one for a long while now, though I did write down the thoughts from this post in earlier comments already, just in a less detailed form.
Ever since i quit DbD in August 2021, I have been reflecting on why I quit and after discovering the reasons, decided to dig a bit deeper and find the reasons for those reasons. And I do think that I managed to figure out an issue this game has that I barely see anyone talk about, yet sooo many things people do talk about and discuss end up being direct consequences of this one, bigger thing.
So I did decide to make this post eventually, simply to shed some light onto what I believe to be, by far, Dead by Daylights biggest problem right now. The "root of all evil", if you will.
Also I am not saying this was DbD's only issue, there are some others that are very much seperated from this one that are important too (e.g. the discrepancy in strength between solo Survivors and SWF groups), but I believe this one to have the biggest impact on the game as of right now. And do keep in mind that this is my opinion, it is very possible that some of you might view other things as more important issues than this one.
The Issue
I'll be straight forward and tell you the problem right away:
The Survivors objective is unfun and boring.
Now before you go in the comments and start calling me crazy, please read my reasoning for this being DbDs biggest issue first. It is a lot more complicated than this one sentence might make it look like.
How to balance an asymmetrical game
I know this might seem off topic, but trust me, this is very important for later.
Dead by Daylight can be split into two seperate "games":
- The "Macrogame" (referring to the overall trial and its progression)
- The "Microgame" (referring to interactions between both sides)
The way we can create a balanced experience for both sides is, by making each side dominate on of those two cathegories, but as a result of that be weak in the other.
Essentially, this game boils down to both sides racing each other by pushing their strong suit and hoping that they can finish their objective before the other side has been able to finish theirs.
Due to this being an asymmetrical game, the side that has less players in one round (Killers) needs to be the dominant side in the Microgame, while the opposing side (Survivors) gets to dominate the Macrogame.
This makes sense, given the Survivors superior numbers that allow them to apply pressure on the Killer in multiple different locations, which the Killer can not contest due to them only being able to be in one place at a time.
To make this fair for the Killer, they need to have the upper hand in this 1v1 interaction, so that they don't waste much time on this one Survivor and can instead go and pressure the team after dealing with them quickly. This is also why they are referred to as "the powerrole", even though they themselves arent any more powerful than the Survivor side is, but they feel very powerful due to the fact that they heavily outclass an individual Survivor.
In other words, a balanced Dead by Daylight would be a game where Killers dominate in chases, whereas Survivors dominate in generator progression, with the deciding factor being who can be more efficient in "their game" of DbD and outperform the other side.
How the Issue affects DbD's balance
In a balanced Dead by Daylight, as discussed above, long chases do not exist. Killers dominate in this aspect, so Survivors will want to avoid chases altogether, focussing their gameplay on generators.
But generators are no fun. No one wants to focus their entire gameplay on holding M1 and occasionally hitting space bar - understandably so.
If this game were to ever be in a balanced state, Survivors would be the ones quitting out of boredom. And since Survivors are just as essential to this game as Killers are, while also making a majority of its playerbase simply because of the 4v1 nature of this game, this would be very bad news.
This is also something that I believe the Devs are very aware of. They have stated multiple times in the past now that they have no intention of balancing Dead by Daylight to make it fair, but to make it "fun".
But what does that mean exactly?
What is the one thing you think of when you talk about "fun" in Dead by Daylight? - It's chases.
Chases are a fast and easy way of bringing action into this, otherwise very boring, game. They are full of fast paced interactions between both sides and you need to think on the run to make the right call in order to avoid certain death at the Killers hands.
As a result the Devs have started balancing DbD around chases - some people might even refer to chases as Dead by Daylight in its entirety, completely forgetting that there is more to it outside of them.
While this is a very understandable decision made by the Devs, it is also one that brings major imbalances with it.
The result(s)
Due to the Devs focussing their resources on making chases a fair, interactive and balanced encounter for both sides, Killers feel very weak to play.
Remember what I said earlier about how to balance an asymmetrical game - Survivors need to dominate in the Macrogame, while Killers need to dominate in the Microgame.
But this is no longer the case. The reality of DbD is, that Survivors dominate the Killer in the Macrogame, as they were designed to, and are equal to them in the Microgame, while on the flip side Killers get dominated in the Macrogame, as they should, but are only equal to Survivors in the Microgame.
By balancing this game around the 1v1 aspect of it, the Devs took away the Killers strongsuit. Killers now struggle immensly to compete with Survivors, especially since those Survivors can hardly be nerfed in their strongsuit, due to that being a direct result of their superior numbers. Simply put Killers can not end their chases quick enough to properly race Survivors who focus on generatos, meaning any time the Survivor team is working on generators efficiently the Killer will most likely lose.
As a result the game becomes frustrating to its Killer playerbase, because any time they go up against a team of Survivors with an equal skilllevel to theirs, they are heavily outclassed simply due to this game being tilted in the Survivors favor as much as it is.
For Killers to be able to win, they need to be on a higher skilllevel than the Survivors are, so that the Killer makes less mistakes than the Survivors and can punish their mistakes more efficiently.
And this leads us to a very modern problem, namely that this essentially rules out the existance of MMR systems in a game like this - at least functional ones.
There are two possible outcomes with an MMR system in DbD right now:
- The system works and puts players of equal skill against each other. In this case Killers are heavily outmatched and will lose a majority of their games (unless Survivors make a huge, game losing, mistake, but for the sake of the argument we have to assume both sides play equally well), which feels unfair and bad for the Killers. Additionally, the high end Survivors would have no opponents, because Killers can not compete at this stage, which results in very long lobby queue times for them.
- The system doesnt work and puts players of varying skill against one another. In this case Killers would get to fight lesser experienced players as well, which allows them to win those games, which feels unfair and bad for those Survivors, as they feel outmatched.
This means no matter what happens, this is a lose-lose scenario. This is also why I keep saying that the most basic requirement for a functional MMR system is a balanced game, which DbD can not (and will probaply never) offer.
Another very common complaint by the Killerplayerbase today is, that gens are completed too fast. That however is not actually the case, it's that they are too slow at killing the Survivors.
And as I explained above, this is essentially an unfixable problem. There are two possible solutions to it, which equally don't work:
- Make Killers the strong chasers they are supposed to be to be able to rival the gen speeds - this one turns Survivor gameplay into a hold M1 simulator, making it extremely unfun for them to play.
- Make gens take longer to complete - this one makes Survivors sit on gens, holding down M1, even longer than they already have to, at which point no one is having fun anymore because of how sluggish the game has become.
Both of these fail entirely at the non interactive nature of generators.
And there are more, but we would still be here tomorrow if I went into detail on all of them, so I'll make it short. Here is a list of other issues that are directly linked to this one with a brief explanation:
- Maps having too many timewasters for Killers on them or generally not allowing for much map pressure (Pallets and Windows are what Survivors have to have fun in chases, to maximise fun and fairness in chases we need a bunch of them and make it so whoever mindgames who wins)
- A vast majority of the Killer roster being unviable in high level play (only viable options are Killers with strong chase related abilities to at least sometimes put Survivors in a lose-lose situation they can profit from, who also have good map pressure to fight generator speeds - e.g. Nurse and Blight)
- Killers getting nerfed who did not need a nerf (strong chase ability = unfun match for Survivors, therefore they get nerfed. This is what happened to Deathslinger or the Twins Toy Sword Add On)
- Killers being forced to run a bunch of slowdown Perks (essentially a futile attempt to force solution 2. from gens being done too fast. As explained above it makes the game miserably boring for Survivors, but is a necessary evil currently)
- Camping & Tunneling being such popular strategies (eliminating one player early on makes the Survivor teams overall map pressure take a huge hit, which can allow the Killer to relax a bit more. Not doing this is pretty much a lost trial. This is a result of gen speeds, which are a result of their unfun nature)
- Playing Killer being significantly more stressful than playing Survivor (you essentially have to play perfect to beat even just a mediocre team. The smallest mistake can cost you the entire game, due to a chase being extended too long and you therefore getting crushed in the Macrogame)
While not all of those might be a direct result of generators being boring, they are all linked to it in some way. Basically, the boring nature of gens caused the Devs flawed balance philosophy, which is what stops us from properly addressing those issues.
If we ever want to properly fix those problems, we need to address generators first. If we don't, all we achieve is trading one problematic thing for another.
What is the Solution?
A complete rework of the Survivors main objective.
We need to get rid of the excruciatingly boring gameplay that is holding down M1 while waiting for a progress bar to fill up - and this is not exclusive to generators by the way, all of the Survivors objectives are this boring, whether that be exit gate switches, totems (cleansing and blessing), healing, chest searching - they are all the same.
Of course these progress bars serve a purpose. These objectives are meant to be timewasters first and foremost, it is necessary that the Survivors spend a good amount of their time on doing them to allow the Killer to find and hunt them down.
So a reworked Survivor objective would need to be both time consuming and interactive for them at the same time.
It is not until this is achieved that we can properly address so many of the other, much more noticeable, issues that plague this game today.
This being said, personally I don't think this is a realistic demand to make.
Generators are one of the most fundamental mechanics in this game and they have existed for almost 6 years at this point without any major changes to them and with a total of 27 DLCs (some bigger than others ofc) that further change the game and, in many cases, directly rely on this mechanic or further add to it.
There are Perks on both sides directly tied to generator progress bars and there are some Killer powers that also rely on Survivors being on gens (such as Freddies teleport or the Doctors Madness Skill Checks) that would need to be addressed if gens were to be fundamentally reworked.
This absolutely does not mean it was impossible to address, however it would require a huge amount of time, ressources and effort from BHVRs side.
And I mean this when I say it, but I definitely think that at this point it would be easier for them to just work on a Dead by Daylight 2 and redesign it from the ground up with this in mind, rather than to try and somehow fix the current game (also due to spaghetti code that further hinders this).
However, I would definitely not mind being proven wrong on this. Though it would be a long and tedious process, I believe the game would greatly benefit from it in the long run.
And they can start small, not tackle the whole thing at once, but maybe start by doing one thing and see how it plays out. For example, rework the Exit Gates to no longer require you to hold M1 next to the switch until a progress bar is filled, but make it require fuses that the Survivors need to collect and insert - each fuse lights up one bulb and 3 fuses open the gate up. It would be significantly more interactive for both sides and it would get rid of people 99%ing the gates (another common complaint you hear a lot). You can also do something entirely different, the most important thing is that something is done.
Afterword
Thanks for reading this, admittedly very long, post. Might be my longest one yet, its definitely the one I put the most work into.
What do you think of this? Do you think I'm right? Or do you think I'm entirely wrong? Did i miss anything crucial? Please tell me down below!
Also please keep in mind this post is not meant to give solutions to this issue, but soley to highlight it - though if you think you got a good sulution to it you can share it down below too / make your own post about it! The more ideas we can give the Devs on this the better. I also deliberately did not post it in the Feedback subforum, as it is not meant to be feedback to the Devs, but as a bit of an explanation to where I believe the game stands right now and why certain things are happening to it for the community - as stated above, I do believe the Devs are very keenly aware of this issue already (and have been for a long time now).
Have a nice day / night and I'll see you next time!
also revert the Slinger nerfs, k thx bye.
I highly doubt it.
In fact, I believe the Survivors being the power role is a very active decision they made a long time ago.
For an in depth analysis on this topic, see the linked post above.
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here's my thoughts on the games current state:
@Mister_xD said:
Prologue
Hello everyone,
First of all, this is not actually a post that I really wanted to make. As some of you will probaply know, I no longer play this game, so my enthusiasm for it has dwindled too. I have just not been having the motivation to make a long post like this one for a long while now, though I did write down the thoughts from this post in earlier comments already, just in a less detailed form.
Ever since i quit DbD in August 2021, I have been reflecting on why I quit and after discovering the reasons, decided to dig a bit deeper and find the reasons for those reasons. And I do think that I managed to figure out an issue this game has that I barely see anyone talk about, yet sooo many things people do talk about and discuss end up being direct consequences of this one, bigger thing.
So I did decide to make this post eventually, simply to shed some light onto what I believe to be, by far, Dead by Daylights biggest problem right now. The "root of all evil", if you will.
Also I am not saying this was DbD's only issue, there are some others that are very much seperated from this one that are important too (e.g. the discrepancy in strength between solo Survivors and SWF groups), but I believe this one to have the biggest impact on the game as of right now. And do keep in mind that this is my opinion, it is very possible that some of you might view other things as more important issues than this one.
The Issue
I'll be straight forward and tell you the problem right away:
The Survivors objective is unfun and boring.
Now before you go in the comments and start calling me crazy, please read my reasoning for this being DbDs biggest issue first. It is a lot more complicated than this one sentence might make it look like.
How to balance an asymmetrical game
I know this might seem off topic, but trust me, this is very important for later.
Dead by Daylight can be split into two seperate "games":
- The "Macrogame" (referring to the overall trial and its progression)
- The "Microgame" (referring to interactions between both sides)
The way we can create a balanced experience for both sides is, by making each side dominate on of those two cathegories, but as a result of that be weak in the other.
Essentially, this game boils down to both sides racing each other by pushing their strong suit and hoping that they can finish their objective before the other side has been able to finish theirs.
Due to this being an asymmetrical game, the side that has less players in one round (Killers) needs to be the dominant side in the Microgame, while the opposing side (Survivors) gets to dominate the Macrogame.
This makes sense, given the Survivors superior numbers that allow them to apply pressure on the Killer in multiple different locations, which the Killer can not contest due to them only being able to be in one place at a time.
To make this fair for the Killer, they need to have the upper hand in this 1v1 interaction, so that they don't waste much time on this one Survivor and can instead go and pressure the team after dealing with them quickly. This is also why they are referred to as "the powerrole", even though they themselves arent any more powerful than the Survivor side is, but they feel very powerful due to the fact that they heavily outclass an individual Survivor.
In other words, a balanced Dead by Daylight would be a game where Killers dominate in chases, whereas Survivors dominate in generator progression, with the deciding factor being who can be more efficient in "their game" of DbD and outperform the other side.
How the Issue affects DbD's balance
In a balanced Dead by Daylight, as discussed above, long chases do not exist. Killers dominate in this aspect, so Survivors will want to avoid chases altogether, focussing their gameplay on generators.
But generators are no fun. No one wants to focus their entire gameplay on holding M1 and occasionally hitting space bar - understandably so.
If this game were to ever be in a balanced state, Survivors would be the ones quitting out of boredom. And since Survivors are just as essential to this game as Killers are, while also making a majority of its playerbase simply because of the 4v1 nature of this game, this would be very bad news.
This is also something that I believe the Devs are very aware of. They have stated multiple times in the past now that they have no intention of balancing Dead by Daylight to make it fair, but to make it "fun".
But what does that mean exactly?
What is the one thing you think of when you talk about "fun" in Dead by Daylight? - It's chases.
Chases are a fast and easy way of bringing action into this, otherwise very boring, game. They are full of fast paced interactions between both sides and you need to think on the run to make the right call in order to avoid certain death at the Killers hands.
As a result the Devs have started balancing DbD around chases - some people might even refer to chases as Dead by Daylight in its entirety, completely forgetting that there is more to it outside of them.
While this is a very understandable decision made by the Devs, it is also one that brings major imbalances with it.
The result(s)
Due to the Devs focussing their resources on making chases a fair, interactive and balanced encounter for both sides, Killers feel very weak to play.
Remember what I said earlier about how to balance an asymmetrical game - Survivors need to dominate in the Macrogame, while Killers need to dominate in the Microgame.
But this is no longer the case. The reality of DbD is, that Survivors dominate the Killer in the Macrogame, as they were designed to, and are equal to them in the Microgame, while on the flip side Killers get dominated in the Macrogame, as they should, but are only equal to Survivors in the Microgame.
By balancing this game around the 1v1 aspect of it, the Devs took away the Killers strongsuit. Killers now struggle immensly to compete with Survivors, especially since those Survivors can hardly be nerfed in their strongsuit, due to that being a direct result of their superior numbers. Simply put Killers can not end their chases quick enough to properly race Survivors who focus on generatos, meaning any time the Survivor team is working on generators efficiently the Killer will most likely lose.
As a result the game becomes frustrating to its Killer playerbase, because any time they go up against a team of Survivors with an equal skilllevel to theirs, they are heavily outclassed simply due to this game being tilted in the Survivors favor as much as it is.
For Killers to be able to win, they need to be on a higher skilllevel than the Survivors are, so that the Killer makes less mistakes than the Survivors and can punish their mistakes more efficiently.
And this leads us to a very modern problem, namely that this essentially rules out the existance of MMR systems in a game like this - at least functional ones.
There are two possible outcomes with an MMR system in DbD right now:
- The system works and puts players of equal skill against each other. In this case Killers are heavily outmatched and will lose a majority of their games (unless Survivors make a huge, game losing, mistake, but for the sake of the argument we have to assume both sides play equally well), which feels unfair and bad for the Killers. Additionally, the high end Survivors would have no opponents, because Killers can not compete at this stage, which results in very long lobby queue times for them.
- The system doesnt work and puts players of varying skill against one another. In this case Killers would get to fight lesser experienced players as well, which allows them to win those games, which feels unfair and bad for those Survivors, as they feel outmatched.
This means no matter what happens, this is a lose-lose scenario. This is also why I keep saying that the most basic requirement for a functional MMR system is a balanced game, which DbD can not (and will probaply never) offer.
Another very common complaint by the Killerplayerbase today is, that gens are completed too fast. That however is not actually the case, it's that they are too slow at killing the Survivors.
And as I explained above, this is essentially an unfixable problem. There are two possible solutions to it, which equally don't work:
- Make Killers the strong chasers they are supposed to be to be able to rival the gen speeds - this one turns Survivor gameplay into a hold M1 simulator, making it extremely unfun for them to play.
- Make gens take longer to complete - this one makes Survivors sit on gens, holding down M1, even longer than they already have to, at which point no one is having fun anymore because of how sluggish the game has become.
Both of these fail entirely at the non interactive nature of generators.
And there are more, but we would still be here tomorrow if I went into detail on all of them, so I'll make it short. Here is a list of other issues that are directly linked to this one with a brief explanation:
- Maps having too many timewasters for Killers on them or generally not allowing for much map pressure (Pallets and Windows are what Survivors have to have fun in chases, to maximise fun and fairness in chases we need a bunch of them and make it so whoever mindgames who wins)
- A vast majority of the Killer roster being unviable in high level play (only viable options are Killers with strong chase related abilities to at least sometimes put Survivors in a lose-lose situation they can profit from, who also have good map pressure to fight generator speeds - e.g. Nurse and Blight)
- Killers getting nerfed who did not need a nerf (strong chase ability = unfun match for Survivors, therefore they get nerfed. This is what happened to Deathslinger or the Twins Toy Sword Add On)
- Killers being forced to run a bunch of slowdown Perks (essentially a futile attempt to force solution 2. from gens being done too fast. As explained above it makes the game miserably boring for Survivors, but is a necessary evil currently)
- Camping & Tunneling being such popular strategies (eliminating one player early on makes the Survivor teams overall map pressure take a huge hit, which can allow the Killer to relax a bit more. Not doing this is pretty much a lost trial. This is a result of gen speeds, which are a result of their unfun nature)
- Playing Killer being significantly more stressful than playing Survivor (you essentially have to play perfect to beat even just a mediocre team. The smallest mistake can cost you the entire game, due to a chase being extended too long and you therefore getting crushed in the Macrogame)
While not all of those might be a direct result of generators being boring, they are all linked to it in some way. Basically, the boring nature of gens caused the Devs flawed balance philosophy, which is what stops us from properly addressing those issues.
If we ever want to properly fix those problems, we need to address generators first. If we don't, all we achieve is trading one problematic thing for another.
What is the Solution?
A complete rework of the Survivors main objective.
We need to get rid of the excruciatingly boring gameplay that is holding down M1 while waiting for a progress bar to fill up - and this is not exclusive to generators by the way, all of the Survivors objectives are this boring, whether that be exit gate switches, totems (cleansing and blessing), healing, chest searching - they are all the same.
Of course these progress bars serve a purpose. These objectives are meant to be timewasters first and foremost, it is necessary that the Survivors spend a good amount of their time on doing them to allow the Killer to find and hunt them down.
So a reworked Survivor objective would need to be both time consuming and interactive for them at the same time.
It is not until this is achieved that we can properly address so many of the other, much more noticeable, issues that plague this game today.
This being said, personally I don't think this is a realistic demand to make.
Generators are one of the most fundamental mechanics in this game and they have existed for almost 6 years at this point without any major changes to them and with a total of 27 DLCs (some bigger than others ofc) that further change the game and, in many cases, directly rely on this mechanic or further add to it.
There are Perks on both sides directly tied to generator progress bars and there are some Killer powers that also rely on Survivors being on gens (such as Freddies teleport or the Doctors Madness Skill Checks) that would need to be addressed if gens were to be fundamentally reworked.
This absolutely does not mean it was impossible to address, however it would require a huge amount of time, ressources and effort from BHVRs side.
And I mean this when I say it, but I definitely think that at this point it would be easier for them to just work on a Dead by Daylight 2 and redesign it from the ground up with this in mind, rather than to try and somehow fix the current game (also due to spaghetti code that further hinders this).
However, I would definitely not mind being proven wrong on this. Though it would be a long and tedious process, I believe the game would greatly benefit from it in the long run.
And they can start small, not tackle the whole thing at once, but maybe start by doing one thing and see how it plays out. For example, rework the Exit Gates to no longer require you to hold M1 next to the switch until a progress bar is filled, but make it require fuses that the Survivors need to collect and insert - each fuse lights up one bulb and 3 fuses open the gate up. It would be significantly more interactive for both sides and it would get rid of people 99%ing the gates (another common complaint you hear a lot). You can also do something entirely different, the most important thing is that something is done.
Afterword
Thanks for reading this, admittedly very long, post. Might be my longest one yet, its definitely the one I put the most work into.
What do you think of this? Do you think I'm right? Or do you think I'm entirely wrong? Did i miss anything crucial? Please tell me down below!
Also please keep in mind this post is not meant to give solutions to this issue, but soley to highlight it - though if you think you got a good sulution to it you can share it down below too / make your own post about it! The more ideas we can give the Devs on this the better. I also deliberately did not post it in the Feedback subforum, as it is not meant to be feedback to the Devs, but as a bit of an explanation to where I believe the game stands right now and why certain things are happening to it for the community - as stated above, I do believe the Devs are very keenly aware of this issue already (and have been for a long time now).
Have a nice day / night and I'll see you next time!
also revert the Slinger nerfs, k thx bye.
its a long read though, so be warned.
I do think I managed to cover a lot of the problems people (me myself included) have with the game currently and tried my best to explain the reasons for those problems.
(I'm just gonna link it here, because its too long to write out again. I hope thats okay with you!)
But you also said some things I hadn't covered in that post, so I'll address those now:
- Solo que: I fully agree that solo que needs to be changed so you get more information on what your team is doing. A improved status icon system for example that includes a smaller picture of whatever action said Survivor is doing and a ping system that allows them to send pre selected messages to their team would be a good way to address this I think.
- NOED: I don't think the issue lies with NOED. The only time I would agree that NOED is a cheap way to get another kill is, when the Killer has been facecamping a Survivor and then got another using NOED, NWO, Deadlock, etc. Though I think the main issue here is how a win is defined in DbD - ever since we shifted to a system that only cared for kills / escapes, we went from punishing people for playing like this to actively rewarding them for it, which has made this playstyle a lot more common.
- BBQ: I once again have to disagree with you. Its good, sure, but its main usage is the 2x BP bonus. The only Killers that really pick this Perk for the aura reveal are high mobility Killers like Hillbilly or Blight, most others could choose better tracking Perks instead - I myself replaced BBQ on most my Killers with Discordance for example. Also, BBQ has a bunch of counters to it that are basekit, you don't need a specific Perk for that - e.g. lockers or gens blocking your aura.
- End Game Chat: This is really not an issue. And your fix doesn't help either, it just makes it so Survivors can flame the Killer with them being incapable of responding to any of it. If you dislike the chat, you can always disable it manually.
- New player experience: Yes, the grind for new players needs to be significantly reduced. The Devs said they were looking into it, but that is probaply going to take a long time, sadly. db
- Reducing the amount of new content: I dont think thats a good idea tbh. DbD is not interesting enough as a game to justify long periodes with no new content - more on that in my linked post.
- Devotion reward: Yes, this is something that should be a thing. We've asked for this for years now and so far have been met with silence - but I fully agree with you on this one!
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- an announcement that they are looking to change Survivor objective gameplay to be something other than holding down M1 until a progress bar is filled
- a grind reduction
- a rework to the loadout page organization - e.g. adding a searchbar
- custom game being made more customizable - e.g. entering a map seed to get one specific setup
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I never understood why Trapper has to be the only trap based Killer in this game that has to collect his traps from around the map before being able to place them.
Giving him all Traps at the beginning would fix many of his issues, most notably the lack of map pressure which results from his long setup time.
Same goes for his Trap escape RNG. While I don't necessarily mind there being some RNG, there should be a minimum amount of escape attempts Survivors need to do in order to escape a Trap. But, just as is the case with Pigs Jigsawboxes, the Devs think the game would be "boring for Survivors" if you had a set amount of tries you had to do before getting out, so this will most likely never happen.
A third thing that IMO needs to be addressed (still) is the visibility of his Traps on the floor. The new grass makes it incredibly easy to spot them, especially on maps with brighter ground beneath it. They should eiher thicken the grass or make his Traps harder to spot.
I think those are his big 3 problems. Fixing them won't make him top tier, but will significantly help him to actually use his power throughout a trial, which I think is enough for now.
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2940025#Comment_2940025
The killer who is face-camping and tunneling-off-hook-till-dead is using much-much less skills than the one that isn't.
If a strategy is easy to pull off, then that strategy shouldn't get as good of a reward as the strategy that is harder to pull off.
Face-camping and tunneling-off-hook-till-dead is brain-dead easy to pull off and every killer can do it and on top of that, survivors can't counter it basekit.
The killer who is face-camping and tunneling-off-hook-till-dead is using much-much less skills than the one that isn't.
And the Killer who is camping and tunneling is the one winning the match, while the other one isn't.
This results in the other Killer strating to camp and tunnel too, because they have to in order to win.
Which brings us back to my original comment: the huge amount of campers and tunnelers is a direct result of this games imbalances.
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2939962#Comment_2939962
The reason killers face-camp and tunnel-off-hook-till-dead is because it is a tactic that is game-winning. If you can face-camp or tunnel-off-hook-till-dead a survivor before the other survivors get 3 gens done, you've pretty much won the game. A tactic that every killer has from level 1 and is so crazy powerful it allows you to win the game should have a basekit counter.
It's not because the game is heavily tilted against killers.
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Think about it from a killer perspective. Killer 1 can play killer without face-camping and tunneling-off-hook-till-dead, just regular play. Killer 1 can remove one survivor from the game before 3 gens are done but it requires constantly patrolling gens, breaking off chases at powerful loops, skillful mind-games and being extremely efficient with my time.
Now compare that to Killer 2, that face-camps or tunnels-off-hook-till-dead. They down the first survivor they see, like Killer 1, but decide to tunnel the survivor off hook. So they move a slight bit away from the hook, wait and then when that survivor is unhooked, they chase and quickly down that survivor and rehook them, rinse-and-repeat. Suddenly Killer 2 has 3 survivors left, just like Killer 1. However, Killer 2 didn't have to patrol gens, or break off chases, or mind-game or even worry about being effiecient with their time.
Why does Killer 2 get rewarded for lazy gameplay when Killer 1 has been playing at much higher skill level.
The skill it takes to face-camps or tunnels-off-hook-till-dead does not justify the rewards.
I would like to know what those Survivors have been doing in both of your Killer examples when you get a kill in with no more than 2 gens popped.
You're not really drawing a picture of the Killers here, you are just describing some horribly inefficient Survivors - which you are right, you don't need those strategies against.
Thing is, when you face an actually efficient team as Killer it is not uncommon to have 2 to 3 gens completed by the time you get your first hook in. And your suggestion of a "good Killer" just leaving the hook to go and patrol a gen on the other side of the map is a gamelosing decision here.
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@HectorBrando said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2939863#Comment_2939863
The Claudette hiding is not exactly holding the game hostage because the Killer could find and kill her but sure I concede, it doesnt count as strategy but is still an example of something that sucked and got changed for the better (the rest of the examples are still valid tho).
Onto the tunneling, you can always make a system similar to Pyramid Head cages or something like Home Sweet Home Survive where you could pick the soul of a fallen teammate and revive them at a safe location (or so I think, I watched some videos and it was something like that), there is ways to try to get rid of camping or at least mitigate it so its not that profitable, my biggest concern is a full camping oriented Killer right now usually gets at least 2 kills without doing much and while you are right it may never go away it could be changed to a way the Killer rarely gets anything else than 1 kill, right now if someone gets a down before there is at least 100% gen progression around the map (1 gen at 50%, 2 at 25% for example) with a full camping build+NOED the Killer is getting 2 kills almost always, there is just not enough time to fix everything in 150 seconds.
Also on a sidenote, if camping gets reworked into a less powerful tool I expect certain things for Survivors would change like how the gens are progressed, right now you cant increase the time it takes to fix a gen (either the raw time "holding m1 for 90-100 seconds instead of 80" or the "pick a spare to jumpstart the gen first") because then camping becomes unstoppable, and this is just an example of stuff that could be changed or tweaked but right now is hard because how fragile the balance on the game is, a fix for A needs also a fix for B.
"Before we buff Survivors again maybe we should stop for a second and think about why Killers use these strategies so much."
This is going to be a very unpopular opinion, because a lot of them are bad and camping is very profitable against Solos, I remember this streamer who sucks, we are talking about "Mariana's Trench MMR" levels of suck like the guy could get to BL3 on a safe pallet and still take 60 extra seconds to land a hit, he manages to get all his 3k and 4k against Solos while camping hard, thats why he camps, because otherwise he wouldnt even land a kill but not because the game is broken or Survivors OP but because he is god awful at this. I play Killer, I play Myers, Jigsaw and other technically weak Killers, I never camped except on EGC situations and I honestly never felt the need to camp to win a game, I do slug if I think it can add more pressure than a hook at the moment tho.
If you want players to camp / tunnel less, then you got to look at the reason why they do it and then address that.
Here is what I came to realize by doing this exact thing:
Why do people camp / tunnel? - because they want to eliminate one player as quickly as possible. Why do they want to eliminate one player as quickly as possible? - because the game is heavily tilted against them to the point where not doing this comes close to throwing the match. Why is that? - because the Devs keep balancing the game around individual 1v1 interactions, despite the fact that this is a 4v1 game and the Killer should be the one crushing Survivors in 1v1s. And why would they do that? - because chases are the only fun thing about this game.
And there it is, the root of the issue. THIS needs to be addressed before we can even start talking about addressing the symptoms that followed, such as the amount of camping and tunneling Killers.
Not to mention that tunneling is quite literally unfixable. If the Killer wants to choose one player over the rest, then they can do that. Whoever they chase / not chase is ultimately their decision and there is no realistic scenario in which you could change that.
If you want them to stop, then give them an incentive not to do it. What really did not help here is, that the MMR system actively rewards both of these playstyles. According to the MMR system, hardcamping someone and using Perks such as Deadlocked, No Way Out and NOED in the end to secure another Kill is the best way to play this game, because you secure kills with it - and those are, of course, the only thing that matters, just like in hockey. Because DbD is a hockey game, since those also only look at the amount of kills everyone got at the end of the match.
If you want to reduce the amounf of campers / tunnelers, give Killers more good reasons not to do it. Make it so not doing it is a viable option for them, reward them for not doing it. You can not get rid of these strategies, as discussed before, so give them a reason to not to use them instead.
And you're right, solos suffer from camping more than SWFs do. Like I said in my previous two comments, this is something that should be addressed. A ping system would work wonders here.
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@HectorBrando said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2939783#Comment_2939783
I disagree being strategies a side can use doesnt mean something has to exist, hiding on the edges of the map as release Claudette hoping the Killer got bored and he DCd was a strategy Survivors could use and not a very engaging, fun and constructive one for anyone involved so it had to go, same for full sabo builds when hooks didnt respawn, body blocking the hook so it was impossible to even get the "unhook" prompt, abusing infinite loops and an insane long list of design flaws that were prunned entirely and the game only got better.
Something being in the game doesnt mean it has to stay that way, there are plenty of strategies that got axed because they were horrid to deal with and the definition of frustrating.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2939789#Comment_2939789
Maybe they could rework BT, give a lessened endurance as base kit and make BT give the unhooked no collision and/or a speed increase similar to Sprint Burst after being unhooked (maybe without exhaustion or with a reduced exhaustion penalty).
hiding on the edges of the map as release Claudette hoping the Killer got bored and he DCd was a strategy Survivors could use
No, this is called "holding the game hostage", not a strategy. First of all, it is, technically speaking, still a thing and secondly, it is bannable, because it forces the match to a standstill of undefined length.
This does not apply to camping nor tunneling, as both are legitimate ways the Killer can progress their side of the objective.
And whether you like it or not, tunneling has become a necessity at this point. You are absolutely right, its boring, uninteractive and unfun for everyone involved, but not doing it comes close to throwing the game as Killer. Heck, I literally quit this game because i didnt want to be forced to camp and tunnel out all my matches!
But here is the harsh reality: you can not fix those issues. Camping and tunneling will always be a thing. What are you planning to do about a Killer not leaving the area of a hooked Survivor? And what about a Killer focussing one guy over the others? Whats the solution here, ban them? You'd have to fundamentally redesign how Killers progress their objective for this, remove hooks alltogether and do something entirely different that the Killer can't just camp or tunnel off, but you don't fix this by giving Survivors BT basekit.
But this isn't really what my comment was about. Not at all, actually. What I said was, that Survivors have clear counterstrategies to those Killer strategies already and acting like they didn't is plain out wrong.
And like I said, I don't mind improving on them either, a ping system for example would do wonders against campers! Make it less enticing of a strategy to use and people will stop using it (yes there are going to be those poeple that will use it no matter what, but they are a clear minority), but right now, it is the best way for Killers to try and win in this game.
Before we buff Survivors again maybe we should stop for a second and think about why Killers use these strategies so much.
Fix the root of the issue, not the symptoms.
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Why is Legion on this list but Nurse isn't?
She is the definition of anti loop, ignoring away everything Survivors have to extend chases. She is, by far, Dead by Daylights best anti loop Killer.
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Tunneling / Camping are strategies the Killers can use.
And, as is the case with all other strategies, there are counterstrategies the Survivors can use to punish this behavior.
If the Killer is camping, do generators. They willingly dropped all map pressure for a good 2 minutes, so abuse that.
If the Killer is tunneling, first of all, don't save in their face. Should they still ignore you, you can sandbag them when they try to search for the unhooked Survivor by making scratch marks of your own or bodyblocking doorways to force a hit on you instead. That way you can stall the Killer and it might just be enough to allow the other person to get away from them / at least find a good chase spot. There is no way for you to reliably shut down tunneling, if the Killer decides they want someone dead and only goes for them, you can't change anything about that - but you can punish it by making sure they lose tremendous amounts of time on this one person, so the Killer, once again, drops all their map pressure.
Those are all "basekit options" the Survivors have to deal with this.
We can improve on those - for example by using a ping system that allows a currently camped player to tell their team to do gens instead of trying to save them, but ultimately Survivors already have a way to deal with those things.
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2939547#Comment_2939547
I would actually say you are wrong on this, since you never hear Survivors complain that the game is stressful. It's the Killers, who always says the game is stressful and not fun to play and it's because they have so many objectives.
I would recommend you read the post I linked in the first comment, as it goes over this in great detail.
In short, Killers having such a rough time is a direct result of Survivor objectives being so boring. It is basically impossible to address this without addressing the Survivors objectives first.
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I genuinely hope so, but at the same time I highly doubt it.
The way I see it, the Survivors objective being a holding down M1 simulator is probaply the most hurtful thing for this game at this point in time, so distancing the game from this repetetive and boring gameplay concept would be one of the best staps to take in terms of game health.
Now the reason why I said that I doubt it is, because of how fundamentally this concept is imbedded into DbD. They can't just rework gens to function differently and call it a day, there are powers, perks, items and add ons that are build around the progress bar, which too would need to be addressed.
Not to mention that said new objective would still need to be balanced in a way that makes it require a similar amount of time as the progress bar did, all of which, in short, is a whole lot of work.
Now if anyone is curious on why I think that the repetetive and boring Survivor objectives are the most hurtful thing to DbD at this point in time, here is a post I made about a week ago going into great detail on exactly this topic (I apologize for doing it this way, but it's simply too long to type out and explain again):
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/321010/dead-by-daylights-biggest-problem#latest
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@Phasmamain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2937899#Comment_2937899
In that case why doesn’t everyone just play nurse?
Although if this is the case that needs a fix ASAP
the reason why this comparison is made is, because the Deathslinger nerfs stripped him off of his entire identity as a Killer.
In his current state he is literally nothing but a worse version of Huntress.
Why would you play Slinger when Huntress exists, who is almost the exact same gameplay wise, but is significantly better at her job than Slinger is, because she has much less limitations on her Hatchets?
This isnt a question of "why arent you picking the most optimal character?", this is a question of "why pick this guy, when someone else fills the same niece but is superior in everything?"
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no.
old Hadnofun is gone and it is gone for good. And in the interest of the overall health of this game it better stays that way.
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@Kill_Yr_Idol83 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/321010/dead-by-daylights-biggest-problem
Thank you for this post. It sums up so very well my frustrations with this game. I've been playing for just about 5 years and recently thrown in the towel when SBMM was introduced, as much as it pained me to do. As a killer main, it was just becoming a maddening, frustrating experience and was anything but fun. I reinstalled the game during the MMR tests and recent tweaks but it's proven to be just as worse for the killer experience. It's as sweaty as ever and the early game is absolutely dreadful. A gen can be done by the time a killer who can only walk, goes from one side of the map to the other. Then two more gens fly once you find yourself in ONE chase and that's with a build that's entirely gen regression perks cause gen tapping is still a thing. I could go on but you've nailed it on the head. Killers just simply aren't viable and the core mechanics has forced a style of gameplay that is simply not fun. Survivors are so unbelievably cocky these days because they know if you're not playing any of the top tier Killers, they've already won. Its made a sweaty, toxic, frustrating and soul sucking experience and is why once again, I've quit the role of Killer and the game altogether until BHVR offer up change. It feels so bad that a game I love and have put so much time and money into, has come to this.
I completely get how you feel, as I mostly went through this same journey myself (minus the reinstalling bit in the end).
The whole reason why I stuck around on this Forum and ultimately wrote this post is because I still love this game, but I am disappointed in its current state.
It is this love (and disappointment) for the game that motivated me to think about it in detail, even though I had already left at that point.
I genuinely want this game to better. I want it to go in a direction that makes it more enjoyable for me, as a Killermain, again, I want to return to it - and I genuinely hope the Devs are going to do something to improve this.
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@FFirebrandd said:
I hope you don't mind that I've bookmarked this and have shared it some in other threads.
I don't mind at all ^^
In fact, I'm thankful that you are helping to share the message!
I think the more people learn about this and understand the issue, the better for all of us and our future discussions about the game and its current state.
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@[Deleted User] said:
when are you getting nerfed?
Sluzzy is too powerful to be nerfed.
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@Adjatha said:
Given that killers get nerfed based on kill rates, you're probably not wrong. If NOED didn't offer a chance to get a kill in the end game, numbers would probably be at least 1 lower in mid mmr brackets.
Killrates are definitely not the only deciding factor behind what the Devs balance for.
If that were the case, Nurse would have received massive buffs by now and the Deathslinger, who, prior to his nerf, sat on an even 50/50 escape/kill ratio (according to the last stats we got prior to his nerf), would never have been nerfed.
Not to mention that the Devs can tell which Perks have been used, so they can most likely tell when NOED influences an individual Killers killrate.
The killrate is taken into consideration when it comes to nerfs / buffs, but it is definitely not the only thing they look at, nor do I think its the primary thing they balance for.
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@FFirebrandd said:
That was an amazingly well written and thought-out post. I will admit that coming into this I was very certain the biggest problem with DbD right now was the new player experience. You've actually convinced me that this is a bigger problem... also much harder to solve.
I did actually come up with a tweak for generators that might help with this? It was more designed around fixing how the first few gens always pop very quickly but the last 1-2 gens can slog on and on and trying to balance that out.
My idea was that there would be four different types of hand tools scattered across the map and enough copies of each for each Survivor to have one. Hammer, Wrench, Screwdriver, and Pliers. Each unique tool would buff a Survivor's repair speed by 12% but generators would take 100 charges to repair instead of 80. With those numbers, 1 survivor with 2 tools would repair about how they would now. A 4 tool survivor would repair a gen in about 60 seconds, but finding all 4 tools could take a lot of searching.
For the record, I do like your idea for how you open up the exit gates.
@Valik said:
I love this. Please keep writing beautiful works like this!
I would say - I don't think that generators need to be replaced altogether.
In truth, all that should happen is there should be many more skill checks with tons of 'mini minigames' to play.
Working on a generator wouldn't be so bad if you were playing frogger or something - if you were playing many very short minigames back to back to back between skillchecks.
thank you for the kind words!
I'm glad you liked it ^^ And it's good to see that I managed to achieve my goal of exposing this issue to more people :D
As for your ideas on how to improve the objectives for Survivors, I think both would work! Both of these were things I had been thinking about myself and I do believe they would be a huge improvement to the current way those objectives work!
Maybe we could even find a combination of both, so we had some tools to find scattered accross the map and then minigames on the generators once you found them?
Anyway, I think the ball is in BHVRs hands now. We can point out the issue and give them ideas and suggestions on how this could be done (I'm thinking about making a seperate post to this just for brainstorming some ideas together with the community), but ultimately this is out of our hands now.
Though to end this on a positive note, I do think BHVR has been experimenting with some things in this regard already! Just look at the many different Glyph variations there are, I think those might be their way of testing what the community likes to then further down the line make bigger changes to exactly those boring "hold M1 for X seconds" actions. Plus they have already been changing some actions, such as the Wiggle or Struggle (2nd Hook stage) action to be more interactive for the player, so who knows! Maybe they are already working on this as we speak?
Anyway, thanks again for reading this! I fear a lot of people saw the huge wall of text i created and left because they didnt want to bother with reading that much (which is understandable), but i'm glad to see that at least some people took the time to read through all of it ^^
Makes me think that I didn't just waste 3 days in writing this xD (yes, it took that long).
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@Chusan said:
I understand what you meant by it is a day 1 problem. What I meant is they are not really doing anything about it. There is tons of "feedback" about the most recent Q&A with the game dev. The game dev themselves don't even understand their own game and compare it with hockey.
For example, your hex totem is cleansed in the first minute because it is out in the open due to a bad map design. Are we supposed to go for another perk and run "Undying" and pray that the 2nd totem would maybe be a better spot?
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/QWJ98K8RI1OQ/image.png
Clearly, they don't play their own game.
What I meant is they are not really doing anything about it.
And you are justified in this critisism.
While I think that one can not really blame them for having this issue in the first place, I do think it is fair to ask why they haven't done anything about it yet - especially when keeping in mind that they have most likely been aware of it for a long time now.
I wasn't trying to say that you couldn't critisize the Devs at all, you definitely can and should (the whole point of this Forum is to provide feedback after all, whether that be positive or negative doesn't matter), what I tried to say is, that this is one of those issues that I believe to be a lot harder to fix than they look like. Its one of DbD's most fundamental mechanics we're talking about after all, which in itself is very hard to fix now plus blocks other fixes to different issues too, which are commonly requested by the community.
Its not so much that I think they wouldn't listen to us, but rather that they don't really know how to go at this.
As for Totem spawns, those are a very different issue. And to be fair here, especially on newer maps, Totems are hidden a lot better than on the old ones (which the Red Forest is). And it is also part of the Hexes risk that they might not last long, they are inconsistent by nature.
Regarding your critisism on the MMR system, i am fully behind you. I think it was a bad idea from the start, as explained in the OP a system like that was doomed from the get go.
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I dont think thats a very fair way to look at it.
Keep in mind, this is a day 1 issue. When this first came to be they had no community to listen to and they never expected this game to be as succesfull as it eventually turned out to be. Gens were timewasters first and foremost and back then that way okay, because that was exactly what the game needed to function.
And in a way, this whole thing continued to be (or even escalated) because they listened to the community - they got feedback on gens being boring and as a result they focussed their attention on what was generally considered to be "fun" - that being chases.
While we can critisize them for choosing this path instead of reworking gens, we also got to keep in mind that back then they were a very small Dev team and didn't have the ressources to address such a fundamental issue - and now that they do, we are at a point in time where there are so many fundamental things bound to this mechanic, that changing it for the better is hardly an option - i was not lying when i said that i think it would be quicker for them to just redo this whole game and release a DbD2 instead of trying to fix the current game.
Plus, as stated above, I hardly see anyone talk about this nowadays. They can't listen to their community in this regard, if the community is silent about it (which is why i made this post in the first place, to shed some light on this problem).
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depends a lot on the scenario.
i have absolutely no issue with anyone slugging someone when they have the last target in their sights - in fact, i would critisize them for not doing it.
but slugging for the 4k without that information is just sweaty and boring. "but the killer wants to win too" - and they already did. a 3k is a win, acting like it wasnt is quite a bad mindset to have, as it will set you up for a lot of disappointments in the future.
im not saying let the 4th guy go or dont even try to get the 4k, but what i am saying is that, as long as you have no idea where that last survivor is when you down the 3rd, just hook them and go search for hatch instead.
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Doctor.
incredibly unique and deep power that is a lot of fun to mess around with.
used to say the same about Slinger, but we all know the story of the great guttening.
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I like pretty much any exhaustion Perk that isnt Dead Hard (because stupidly overpowered) / Sprint Burst (because holding W is not very enticing gameplay), Kindred, Iron Will, Decisive Strike, any Boon that isnt CoH (because stupidly overpowered), We'll Make It, ...
the ones i dislike are certainly a minority. I generally dislike Perks that are either way too good (e.g. DH or CoH) or promote an, in my opinion, unhealthy playstyle (e.g. BT or Resilience).
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ive said this countless times
NOED is not a perk that rewards one side for doing something, its a perk that PUNISHES the other side for NOT doing something!
you can fail as hard as you want as a Killer, if they did bones NOED wont activate, period.
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Best? The Halloween Chapter. I think he massively helped this game to get to where it is right now and i remember the insane hype when Myers released! Also he got a power that is very true to how he works in the movies - he might not be very strong and pretty outdated, but you still feel like you are him / going up against him in your matches.
Worst? The A Binding of Kin Chapter. the Killer is a huge mess, power wise. Lowest pick rate by a long shot, excurciatingly bad to play against and not a lot of fun to play either. Looking at them just shows you all the wasted potential a power like this could have had, but didnt end up being. Also no new map. And the only memory i got of Elodie is her deafening me because her screams were way too loud when she released...
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revert his nerf.
thats all he needs, he was in a perfect balance spot prior to that patch!
(and just to clear any possible confusion: i am referring to all basekit changes. that includes the ridiculous nerfs he got AND the very mediocre buffs he received as compensation. old Slinger needed no balance changes, that goes in both directions)
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i will remain unhappy for as long as they are trying to push an MMR system onto this game.
an MMR system in an asymetrical game such as DbD cant just function like any other MMR system out there, they would essentially have to reinvent the MMR system due to the nature of this game and the unbalanced team composition, which they have proven they are incapable of.
in addition to that, for an MMR system to ever work you need a balanced game. its the most base line requirement, which we do not have, nor ever will have. And i'm not just saying that, the Devs have literally said before that they dont balance this game for being balanced, but for "fun" - and some of the more recent balance changes have further proven that (referring to the Deathslinger nerf here).
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- Team Fortress 2
- Minecraft
- Dark Deception
- Inscryption
- Advance Wars: Dual Strike
- Geometry Dash
those are all the games i am playing at this point in time.
i like to divide those games into two genres:
- indie horror (Dark Deception, Insycrption)
- games that i can sink a lot of time into and watch myself getting better at (Team Fortress 2, Minecraft, Advance Wars: Dual Strike, Geometry Dash)
though i do also value Minecraft for its sandbox aspect, sometimes just being able to build something with no pressure is great.
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i think i would just get bored after a couple of games on the same map tbh.
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record the match.
then report the people holding your hostage ingame and keep their profiles open.
then contact Support (here: https://support.deadbydaylight.com/hc/en-us ) and submit a ticket in which you include all needed information from their profiles, as well as attaching the video you took as evidence of them holding you hostage.
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@cordonrouge said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2906482#Comment_2906482
I don't think that's necessarily true.
ranged killers like trickster, huntress, deathslinger, do not have this problem. gap closing killers like nurse, spirit, blight, demo, billy, do neither.
trapper does really well, he can close off entire rooms with his traps giving him insane information and it's also funny as hell. i once locked two people in the bahtrooms with two traps lmao. i've never seen hags but i assume they play similarly.
wraith can just find a survivor in a room and bodyblock the exit. somewhat all stealth killers can catch people in a room. the small size of the map means that your terror radius covers almost all the map and it's hard to understand if the killer is coming to you or he's just chasing another survivor, perhaps on a room directly above/below yours. meaning you either commit to a gen and take a risk or you've just pressured yourself.
some killers like sadako do bad in this map, especially with wonky tv spawn and perhaps artist too but i don't player her so i dont know.
overall, i dont think it's much different in terms of number of killers that do well or dont, all maps have similar numbers.
are there some Killers that can do well on this map? sure. Hag loves it, so does Blight. Stealth Killers such as GF or Myers can hit and run on it (considering no one brought CoH, which is ridiculously strong on this map especially) and to an extent Huntress can circumvent Survivors holding W with her projectiles.
But for a majority of Killers this map boils down to just holding down W for both sides.
Even if you can get the jump on someone, with the speedboost they get and maybe an exhaustion Perk on top the second hit will be achieved by holding W after them just as i described above.
the difference between this map and any other map is, that with those other maps when you see a Survivor take off in one direction you can choose a different path and start zoning them out, cutting them off. Midwich does not allow you to do this at all, you just hold W after them or you make a 180° turn and try your luck circling around the other way in hopes that maybe they too just fell asleep holding down their W key and wont notice you doing this, very obvious, manoeuvre.
is it possible to do well? sure. but its about as fun as working your way through the 30 safe pallets Gideon has to offer.
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and it utterly breaks apart when any language that isnt english gets involved.
we should be able to disable it in the options if we dont want it.
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its very important that every Killer has counterplay, otherwise they would be unbeatable. This is why Nurse is problematic, because she is just a powerhouse in everything.
the question we should ask is:
why should every Killer have counterplay in chase? There is nothing wrong with a Killer being an absolute powerhouse in one aspect of the game, if they therefore are weak in the other. Old Deathslinger is a perfect example of how to do this right: while the counterplay to him in chases was very limited, he had plenty of counterplay outside of them. Amazing 1v1 capabilities, but as soon as people grouped up on him he struggled a lot.
And i dont think there is anything even just remotely wrong with that formula - in fact we see it applied on a Killer like Legion too, just that the roles are reversed with them being extremely good at punishing Survivors grouping up, but struggeling heavily in the 1v1 aspect of the game (and the upcomming buffs just further expand on this). So why is it okay to have a Killer great at 1v4ing people but horrid at 1v1ing them, but its not okay to have a Killer great at 1v1ing people but horrid at 1v4ing them?
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and if the Deathslinger nerf has proven one thing, its that the Devs actually listen to those people.
Coconut just made a video on this too, its not a new trend at all.
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do you like interactive gameplay? if your answer is yes to this question, you should dislike this map heavily.
the entire gameplay of Midwich boils down to holding W around the huge square in the middle, while the Killer awkwardly waddles after you slowly catching up with their 15% faster movementspeed, until they are close enough for you to run into one of the rooms and die trying to loop the pallet inside of it.
if there was a way for the Killer to cut you off when you're just holding W through the hallways this map would be significantly better.
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how didnt i see this earlier? oh well, im here now and thats all that counts.
while i wholeheartedly agree that Caleb is in the serious need of some buffs right now, i dont think we should expand on the changes he received in that patch.
We should honestly just revert him to his old state. He was perfectly fine where he was before the nerf and the changes he received (this includes the nerfs and the compensation buffs) all went in a terribly wrong direction.
I fear the more we expand on those nerfs to somehow try and justify them, the more of his identity he is going to lose. he is already but a discount Huntress and i really dont think we need to distance him any further from his old self - i think we need to bring him back to being what he once was: a unique, fun to play and (very) balanced Killer with a lot of depth to his, seemingly straight forward, abilities.
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- i refuse to accept the Deathslinger nerfs
- i refuse to accept Hillbillys overheat
- i refuse to BM the other players in my matches (unless they deserve it e.g. by purposefully selling out their teammates)
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i gotchu fam
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"it would encourage tunneling!"
i think its lowkey insulting that they seem to think that we were incapable of simply remembering who was hooked how many times. I am not a goldfish, i can indeed count to 3 on 4 seperate occasions.
the reality of the situation is that it would change literally nothing other than making this game easier for new Killer players to pick up by allowing them to make some better strategic decisions.
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Ex-Killermain with something like a 75% to 25% ratio (i just found Survivor gameplay boring and unappealing, but i did play occasionally).
by the time i quit (August last year when SBMM released) i had amassed 4.780 ingame hours.
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technically speaking not the first screenshot i ever took, there is one prior to this, however that one was only made to show a bug so i dont really count it.
in case you wanna see it regardless, here it is:
also RIP to my legacy Trapper weapon :(
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maybe give Doctor a try?
he is a very versatile character with a bunch of different playstyles, pretty good in chases (once you got the timing down) while also not being too shabby at defending the area around him. he is certainly not the strongest around, but i think he is very fun to play nontheless.
he was definitely my go to Killer whenever i didnt feel like playing Deathslinger - who i would have recommended to you had they not completelly and uterly gutted him out of existance :)
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@Leachy_Jr said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2903476#Comment_2903476
I wouldn't call old slinger completely perfect but he was very close. It's just his overreliance on wardens keys and being able to rapid zone were the only things that needed addressing.
Tbf Idk why they're trying to fix him while taking away all of his identity. Makes no sense to me.
the reason they nerfed him is actually very easy to explain: Survivors didnt like going up against him. Thats it, thats all the magic there is to it.
So they looked at what people disliked most about him: A: him not being loopable like other killers - removed. B: him being able to shoot their a**es when they werent paying attention - removed. C: him zoning them out and then hitting them - attempted removal, but ended up being his main playstyle after the nerf.
were those things justified? absolutely not. but they did it anyway in the name of "fun" (and failed miserably because he is just as boring to go up against. the only difference is that he is now also extremely boring to play. good job BHVR!)
and in a similar fashion the buffs he got as compensation were laughable. They fundamentally failed to address any of the issues he had prior to and after the nerfs and honestly just added insult to injury.
however, the nerf he got to his zoning (a short M1 cooldown after dropping out of ADS) is actually a change i dont mind - i even think it made him better in a way. I think people who faked his power repeatedly and then went for M1s were playing Caleb fundamentally wrong. While i can see a use for faking his power on longer distances, at shorter distances you never wanted to enter ADS unless you were actively taking a shot in the first place. So faking his ADS over and over in favor of an M1 was actually a lot less efficient that just taking the shot, meaning a nerf that forces people to stop doing this would overall help them getting better with the character rather than relying on a cheesy way to win with him, so i dont mind keeping that one in. though one thing to note here is that i dont necessarly view this zoning as a problematic thing (him being incredibly good in 1v1s was his balancing factor after all), but more of as a cheap tactic that was rather boring for everyone involved.
but there is one thing you said that i have to disagree on:
he was definitely not Add On reliant. Warden Keys made him undoubtedly better, that is true, but as someone who basically religiously played Add Onless Caleb on a daily basis for well over a year i can assure you he certainly didnt need them to do well.
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how about both?
have one mode with SBMM for the people that prefer that system and one mode without it for the people that prefer the old system.
that way everyone is happy.
as for me personally, i significantly prefer the old rank based matchmaking over SBMM. in fact i dislike SBMM so much that i quit the game when it released.
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just revert his changes entirely.
he was is a great spot prior to the nerfs - in fact, i would even go as far as calling him the most balanced Killer in the entire game.
none of his nerfs were justifiable and should never have happened in the first place.
there is no need to try and screw around with like 50 different mechanics to try and balance him while keeping all the nerfs he got, when he was literally in an almost perfect spot balance wise before the nerf. just revert him to his old self and you got a balanced version of Deathslinger.
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and removing it would encourage hook farming, which is equally bad.
cause why would we need a penalty for somoene who decides to unhook right in the Killers face? its not like they were actively messing with the Killers primary objective or anything, which said Killer already struggles to complete... oh wait.
why do people always think that just because they want to save now that this somehow means they were entitled to get the rescue?
if the Killer is very close to the hook, you shouldnt even think about going for the rescue in the first place, let alone demand getting it! You either wait until the Killer is gone and gives you an opening, or you do generators and punish them for dropping all their map pressure in favor of killing off one individual.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2902106#Comment_2902106
he has Undetectable as part of his base kit.
more importantly, he inflicts Survivors who touch his portals in any way with Oblivious.
