Mister_xD
Mister_xD
About
- Username
- Mister_xD
- Joined
- Visits
- 7,667
- Last Active
Comments
-
So should behavior make noed be a reward like devour hope is.
no.
NOED is a punishment for Survivors who failed to do something, not a reward for Killers for doing something specific.
That design philosophy is fine and does not need to be changed.
that said, i do think NOED could be improved.
if there is one change i would like to see, its that NOED should vary in strength based on how many Dull Totems remained in the trial when the exit gates got powered.
That way it would feel more fair towards Survivor teams that did some (but not all) bones, as dealing with NOED now is a lot less punishing / easier in comparison to teams that just didnt do any bones, while also feeling more fair to Killers, because the Perk is no longer gotten rid off equally fast by a team that didnt do any bones in comparison to a team that spend some time during the mid game to get rid of the bones.
the most boring way this could be implemented would be by having NOED light up all remaining Dull Totems in the trial, but personally i'd hope for a bit of a rework (please note that "rework" =/= "nerf") that makes the Perk Token based (each remaining Dull Totem = +1 Token) with effects that are stronger the more Tokens are available.
in addition to that, and this is completely unrelated to NOED itself, i'd like there to be a map wide audio cue that tells everyone when the last Totem got destroyed, so solo teams dont waste time looking for Totems when they are already all gone.
-
that is because Oni is in his Blood Fury and any attack during this time is considered a special attack, which dont work together with NOED.
anyway, you essentially always have NOED when that Kanabo is out, i dont think you'd need it.
-
i would like to clarify one thing:
he does not need Add Ons to do that.
As a result, Doctor is a great facecamper (not the best though, as others, namely Cannibal and Trickster, can use their power to not just prevent an unhook attempt like Doctor can, but catch both the unhooker and the unhooked and get two people killed instead of just one).
its not at all a good tactic though, as he does create a map wide warning to everyone that he is currently doing it (once again inferior to Cannibal or Trickster who dont do that and can lure someone in), so the rest of the team always knows exactly what is happening and can just continue doing generators without wasting any time on walking up to the hook to detect the camp first.
its due to this that you will rarely, if ever, see a Doctor actually do this (he had this ability for years now and i have basically never seen this happen in an actual match - nor have i ever really made any use of it).
To me this is the equivalent of a Killer Bloodlust 3ing an unsafe pallet - they have given up on winning and just want to secure the one Kill they can get.
I dont think its very problematic to be honest, but i wouldnt be entirely opposed to a change - as long as it doesnt turn out to be a flat out nerf to his Shocktherapy stun.
-
it was a close one between Clown, Doctor and Deathslinger for me.
i just love Calebs dirty laugh while he slowly reels a Survivor towards him and the Doctors high pitched giggle any time someone gets shocked is quite creepy and does a good job at portraying his insanity, but in the end i feel like Clowns laugh has the most personality behind it - it just fits him too well to not be my choice.
-
Overheat is barely noticable and you'd have to try to overheat.
oh i even triggered myself with that...
-
the selfcare ability it provides for everyone in itself is strong enough to warrant being a boon totem perk, the speedboost when healing others / using a medkit is just an unnecessary bonus on top.
Oh BuT ThE PeRk TiErS - okay, how about lvl 1 CoH lets you heal at 50% healing speed, lvl 2 at 75% healing speed and lvl 3 at 100%. now we got Perk tiers again.
and a general change i would like to see to boons is that it should take Survivors longer to bless totems the more they get snuffed out.
something like 16s for the first blessing, 20s for the second, 24s for the third, etc - similar to waking someone up from Freddys dreamworld.
-
NOED is not a Perk that the Killer gets as a reward for doing something, its a Perk that punishes Survivors for not doing something.
and that design philosophy is fine, there is no need to change it.
-
@Tr1nity said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2803562#Comment_2803562
Was is busted before?
it never was a busted Perk, but due to the BP boni that help you fight the massive grind it has always been an extremely popular choice (at least once they added the stack system to it - in its original form BBQ just used to double all BP gains you got while someone was hooked, which wasnt very good), which has lead to many assume that, because it was used a lot, it must be extremely strong, hence the "BBQ OP!" threats were born.
though one thing to note would be that in the early days of BBQ, lockers did not hide a Survivors aura - so in a way the aura reveal used to be stronger in BBQs early days.
-
@Junylar said:
The amount of killers using these "subtle" speedhacks for extra 2-3 % move speed (like running with Bloodlust 3 without actual Bloodlust) and wallhacks (they always know where you are without aura-reading perks) is enormous, at least on EU servers. It's funny that you can't even properly report those, because you can't prove it was an actual wallhack and not just their "intuition", even if you record it.
i would just like to clarify one thing:
you absolutely do not need aura reading Perks as a Killer to be able to pinpoint Survivor locations.
I was actually quite used to only be running Discordance as a tracking Perk, but due to experience, predictions, gamesense and audio clues was pretty consistently able to pinpoint the location of most Survivors, even if they were far away from me (general area if far away ofc. i coudnt just tell exactly where they were, but i knew which gens were being worked on and could predict where they would go to if i approached them from a certain angle)
And yes, i have been accused of cheats (especially wallhacks) quite a bit because of it.
an example (from an actual game i played some time ago): i, as the Killer, walked into the Badham Preschool main building through the front door. By the time i got to the corner that leads into the hallway, a Survivor who was working on the generator (not the boiler room one, the one next to the right (looking from the main entrance) staircase) downstairs decided to hide from me in the locker. I could hear the locker doors creak from my position upstairs (they did not jump in quickly) and first checked on the lockers in the classroom upstairs (heard no breathing - i didnt open them) before going downstairs, beelining the locker and instantly pulling them out. i later got accused of cheating- you guessed it, wallhacks.
now i am not trying to say it was impossible that you encountered wallhacking Killers before or anything like that, but i would like to point out that this game offers a lot of very subtle hints Killers can use to locate Survivors that dont seem apparent to a lot of Survivor players right away, which can quickly lead to false cheat accusations.
for example: footstep sounds, breathing sounds, little audio cues triggered by actions (e.g. locker doors creaking when entering / exiting a locker), grass movement (visually - grass doesnt move unless someone is interacting with it, so if i see some grass shaking gently to the left or right around a corner, i know someone is sitting there - yes, grass moves even if the Survivor stays perfectly still), crow behavior, etc.
its due to this, that the Devs will not, and should not, ban people based simply on your personal PoV as the Survivor.
in order to catch people who are actually wallhacking, the Devs need to improve their anti cheat system to detect such thrid party programms running and then ban people based on that.
-
if i learned one thing from Hillbilly, its that they'd rather have one character go extinct from ingame matches than reverting a change on them.
-
just revert his quickscope and TR nerfs and he'd be perfectly fine.
-
@jesterkind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2793322#Comment_2793322
The only point here that I agree with is the bodyblocking- that's why what I personally would propose is removing collision so that can't happen. It's the only real, tangible downside to a basekit BT iteration that I can see arising that would prevent it from obviously making the killer prioritise the person doing the unhooking.
Also, this probably is part of their solution to facecamping, and even if that isn't their intent with the change it still isn't a separate issue. This would help against being hard tunnelled, and it would help against being facecamped, with the downside being that it's harder (but not impossible) to tunnel in situations where you're going to try and contest the unhook. That seems like a pretty good trade to me, if the issue of potentially abusing it for bodyblocking is addressed- even with your messages all you're doing is confirming that it would work to dissuade those two things.
You've kinda said it yourself- the unhooked player having something to stop them being downed for a few seconds only matters if you're already there to contest, and in that case, yes, it is absolutely fair for the person who is being unhooked to have a fighting chance at not being downed literally immediately to incentivise you to go for the person doing the unhooking. A player shouldn't be punished for their teammate's mistakes and being hard tunnelled intentionally because of facecamping or other intentional targeting isn't healthy design to encourage, so no matter what way you slice it this is just a good idea that doesn't require a corresponding nerf to balance it out.
So, to summarise: bodyblocking is the only legitimate issue that I can see arising here, and I fully hope that the devs implement whatever they have planned in such a manner that it doesn't become a problem. Otherwise, all this does is make it so the killer player has far more cause to target the person who is actually making the mistake instead of their helpless teammate, and that on its own ought to encourage smarter plays in the long run. If it doesn't, making unhooks take longer won't achieve it either.
what I personally would propose is removing collision so that can't happen
i've covered this in a previous comment already, but removing collision wont actually help you. They can still bodyblock for their friend by running behind them and eating any attack meant for the other player.
Also, this probably is part of their solution to facecamping
then they fundamentally misunderstand what camping even is.
Borrowed Time is NOT an anti camping Perk, not even close. BT is an anti tunnel Perk, but if a Killer is camping efficiently, then BT wont help you against them. The only reason people even get someone off of a hook against a facecamper is because hook grabs are total jank and dont work 50% of the time - and the other 50% the unhooker gives the Killer a free down, potentially even hook and camp, whether they have BT or not.
if you wanna address camping, thats great. i'm with you on that - but BT basekit is absolutely not the solution for that, because it is not an anti camp Perk.
the unhooked player having something to stop them being downed for a few seconds only matters if you're already there to contest, and in that case, yes, it is absolutely fair for the person who is being unhooked to have a fighting chance at not being downed literally immediately to incentivise you to go for the person doing the unhooking
i'm not even arguing with you on this one.
i've openly agreed to this multiple times already, but it's got absolutely nothing to do with my argument.
i'm not saying you shouldnt have a fair chance when you get off the hook, i'm saying the guy trying to get you off the hook should not be doing it right in the Killers face in the first place.
my proposed change takes place before your scenario even comes into play - and when it does come into play, then you got absolutely no downsides from my suggestion anyway, because the animation is already done.
i'm not saying BT basekit shouldnt be a thing, i'm saying that there should be a compensating nerf to unhooking that makes it so the unhooker cant just waltz in guns blazing and do it right in the Killers face 5 seconds after the other guy got hooked and expect to get away with it.
-
@jesterkind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2793238#Comment_2793238
But the point I'm trying to make is that even with the current BT, which is presumably going to be stronger than the version that makes it into the basekit of the game, unsafe unhooks are still very punishable- they just don't result in the survivor being downed literally immediately, they have 12 seconds to make it to something where they can try to loop and escape, OR they're forced to spend a few seconds mending while the killer spreads pressure elsewhere.
Making some version of BT basekit really wouldn't be eliminating a survivor's ability to make mistakes, it'd just stop someone else from being punished for those mistakes. If someone goes for an unsafe unhook and the killer knows that they can't hit the person being unhooked, that means the unhooker has aggro on them now. It may not be the instant-down of a grab (though it may still be an instant down depending on circumstances), but it's absolutely still a mistake that will still be capitalised on by the killer, it's just rightfully shifting the punishment onto the person who made the mistake.
There's really no reason to assume that some variation on this actually would hurt killers, at least ones who aren't intending to hard tunnel no matter what. You can still go for the unhooker and you can still bait out BT like you can right now, you're just not going to be able to immediately down the person who was just on the hook. You keep saying that the person making the mistake is the one who should be punished, but they would be if the killer knows without a doubt that BT is in play and that there's no point going for the unhooked guy- they'll be punished by being the one that the killer is right on top of, which will at least result in an injury if not a down. You're overlooking that the uncertainty will be eliminated here,right now the killer doesn't know if the person being unhooked has BT saving them but if BT was basekit they'd always go for the unhooker.
you're missing the entirety of my point.
the problem is that people farm you off in front of the Killer, because that is what leads to the Killer tunneling you.
and BT is actively encouraging them to do so, which needs to stop.
a lot of the scenarios where you argue that BT is needed and healthy would literally be eliminated by removing hook farms like that - and for the other scenarios, literally nothing would change, because the unhooker wasnt in grab or swing distance to the Killer anyway.
less hook farms = less instant tunnels - and even if the Killer comes back to tunnel, now you got BT and can make a run for it.
and yes, 12 seconds are enough to get to a loop at a vast majority of hook locations. There are very few examples where this isnt actually the case, such as the Tompson House, but i feel confident in saying that you shouldnt have much of an issue finding a T L wall, a Jungle Gym or a simple pallet tile in 12 seconds from ~95% of the possible hook locations. and you're most likely gonna have some time to spare as well.
Making some version of BT basekit really wouldn't be eliminating a survivor's ability to make mistakes
yes it would. if the unhooked guy boyblocks for the other, thats exactly what happens: both get away.
to clarify: by "get away" i dont mean instantly win the chase, i mean making enough distance on the Killer to find the next looping tile and start looping them as if they never were at the hook in the first place. e.g. getting out of basement and taking the shack window to disappear into the night.
also, i'd like to point this out:
there are exactly 2 scenarios where a nerf like this would actually negatively affect the Survivors:
1) a Survivor has been found and is being chased when they decide that now would be a great time to go for an unhook
2) the Killer is facecamping
outside of those two scenarios, this unhook time increase would literally do nothing bad for Survivors, because they are not in direct contact with the Killer and therefore couldnt care less if it took them an extra second or so to pull the other guy off the hook.
and lets be honest:
in scenario 1) the Survivor should not be going for that unhook in the first place.
and in scenario 2) the Survivors should, once again, not try to go for unhooks either but do gens instead. sucks for the person on the hook, but facecamping is a different topic that needs to be addressed seperately.
in both of these scenarios, the Survivors are making a big misplay already, so making it harder to pull off would in return mean, that your teammates would be disencouraged to even go for such dumb plays, which is overall more beneficial to you (on the hook) in 9 out of 10 cases.
-
@jesterkind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2793210#Comment_2793210
I'm not sure I follow what you're saying- I don't see how Borrowed Time doesn't cover the gap I outlined, when it gives you the ability to react and dash to a loop if you get hit. BT fixes this problem because it guarantees you won't be downed off hook- it obviously doesn't stop the killer from following you after you get unhooked, nothing could, but it actually lets you do something about it.
Farming itself isn't the problem, that's just a bad habit, the problem is when being farmed leaves you in a situation where you are powerless. You are obviously still at a disadvantage if the killer decides to follow you after you're unhooked, but a lack of BT or even a slower unhook animation doesn't solve that either, it's just that you are vulnerable while injured and somewhere the killer knows your location. If the killer follows you post-BT, or having waited out the duration of BT, it's back in your hands to do something about it because you aren't literally downed again a second after being unhooked.
So, sure, I guess I agree that hook farming would be eliminated if unhooking was always risky, but I don't really care about eliminating hook farming, I care about stopping people from being hard tunnelled, intentionally or accidentally. Also, it's kind of irrelevant to bring up how well this solution would be implemented on a technical level, obviously any hypothetical discussion about potential fixes assumes that those fixes would work.
(Also, why does everyone always put "aim dressing" in sarcastic air quotes? There's a difference between what this game has an an auto-aim system, I've never understood the resistance to referring to it accurately. Not really relevant, it's just always confused me.)
the problem is when being farmed leaves you in a situation where you are powerless.
no, thats actually quite intended.
You are not supposed to just be able to unhook in the Killers face and get away with it for free, the punishment for that is the unhooked person being rehooked immediately, being brought one step closer to death, which is a big setback to the Survivor team in a whole. that is the punishment for this action and thats quite a fair one at that, given we only look at this from a team vs team perspective.
The core issue is not that the Survivor team gets punished for making bad plays, the issue is that the game actively encourages one individual to do said bad plays by rewarding them for it, but punishes someone else for said misplay.
So the shift i'm suggesting here is, that we make it so unhooking leaves the freshly unhooked player in a safe state, but it actively endangeres the unhooker instead. The punishment shifts from punishing the hookfarmed to punishing the hookfarmer.
They will not be hookfarming you, if they receive the punishment for it when it backfires (rather than you), thats the point i was making.
but if we dont endanger the unhooker, we turn hooks into something thats entirely safe for Survivors (when they are supposed to be the Killers stronghold). While you would be right that it'd be fair for the unhooked, it'd be extremely unfair to the Killer, given that the Survivor team just made a huge misplay, but the Killer cant actually punish them for it.
Thats how Killers win in this game, by punishing mistakes made by Survivors. But if we just keep eliminating the Survivors ability to make mistakes, we in return make it harder and harder for Killers to be able to win. Thats why BT basekit without any change to compensate would be a bad thing, because it makes unhooks entirely safe, stripping the Killer off the ability to punish the misplay.
-
@White_Owl said:
What would be the point of having BT if the killer can camp more effectively?
BT is an anti tunnel Perk, not an anti camp Perk.
The point is to secure the getaway of the freshly unhooked Survivor should the Killer return shortly after the unhook, which it would still do just fine.
if you're looking for Perks that fight camping, look no further than Camaraderie.
You really shouldnt go at a camping scenario with the mindset of "i have BT, so i'll just wait for my chance to unhook and escape with my friend!". doing that is gonna achieve one of two things: 1) you're wasting tons of time you could be on gens instead, meaning by the time the camped guy dies the game is still going, allowing the Killer to get more kills, 2) you run in and play the "grab game" with the Killer, where you greatly risk throwing the entire game right there. And if you do get them off, congratulations! now you're the one being camped.
If the Killer is camping, ger the f- out of there and do gens instead of trying desperately to save the guy on the hook.
-
@jesterkind said:
I don't think this is the right call, personally speaking. The reason that Borrowed Time is having rumblings of some basekit incarnation is because of what it does, and that's why it definitely isn't just a free 5th perk slot. Borrowed Time covers for a gap in the core gameplay where survivors are subjected to something completely out of their control- there is literally, straight up, nothing you can do about being farmed and immediately downed again without perks.
It's not just that survivor players are getting a free efficiency buff that needs to be counteracted by the same mechanic getting a corresponding nerf, it's that a flaw with the game's design is being corrected. If killers got a corresponding change, it'd have to be in the same vein to be considered actually a reaction and not a disconnected buff; something where a perk covers core flaws in the gameplay. I'd honestly argue that no killer perks do that, though the closest would definitely be something to slow down the game and give everyone a little room to breathe, so if killers get a change to correspond with this - a huge "if" because that isn't really how these things work - it'd presumably look like some nerfs to generator speed increases, or a change to how stacking those increases works.
Side note, I personally hope that whatever their basekit anti-tunnel measure looks like, it has something to do with removing collision on the unhooked survivor. I've accidentally ended up downing the unhooked guy way too often because of the aim dressing combined with a weird angle, I'd love if I literally couldn't hit them and had to hit the unhooker for a few seconds there. It'd help with BT bodyblocking, too.
Borrowed Time covers for a gap in the core gameplay where survivors are subjected to something completely out of their control- there is literally, straight up, nothing you can do about being farmed and immediately downed again without perks.
only problem with that argument is, that making BT basekit doesnt address this issue in the slightest.
you can still get farmed by overaltruistic teammates without being able to do anything against it.
if that is the problem, they should add the ability to deny getting unhooked by someone similar to how you can deny being healed, not give survivors BT for free.
BT quite literally does the opposite of helping you here.
Do you remember when they added the "safe unhook" score event and the "unsafe hook rescues" emblem penalty? those were made to fight exactly this behavior you're complaining about, yet BT just entirely negated them. The hookfarmers didnt disappear - they just equipped BT and continued the same way as before, knowing that now they will be getting away with it again.
I've spoken out about this on a multitude of occasions, but, per usual, have been ignored. a simple fix to this would have been to make the unsafe unhook penalties go through when the unhooked Survivor gets hit, not when they get downed within 10 seconds after being unhooked. but since that has never been implemented and Emblems are no longer a thing, we gotta find a new way to disencourage this behavior.
the main problem with BT isnt even the strength of its effects, its the mindset it creates in Survivors heads and the gameplay it encourages.
my overall goal here is actually very similar to yours: i want to disencourage unsafe hook rescues (alias "hook farms"). BT has been a thorn in my eye for a very long time now, but since it has always just been a Perk, it was quite difficult to find a good solution to this problem due to the fact that not everyone runs it - but if it was turned into a base game mechanic, that would change drastically. So if the escape from the unhooking sight was made to be guaranteed to be safe, then, at least in my opinion, a good way of fighting Survivors turning off their brain and just unhooking because they can (which also encourages tunneling btw, cause why wouldnt you want to go after the guy who is gonna be on deathhook (or even dead) now from the Killers PoV? - so thanks to that BT mindset the Perk actually leads to more tunnel scenarios than when it wasnt around, its trying to fix something but at the same time makes that thing occur more often) would be by making the unhooking action in itself more risky.
think about it: people would stop hookfarming you for good, if hookfarming you meant certain death for them.
and im not saying all this from the perspective of a Killer who just wants to camp more efficiently, im saying it from the perspective of the hooked Survivor - i would much rather be saved without BT when its actually safe to do so than be pulled off the hook with BT when the Killer is close.
your solution of making the unhooked Survivor lose collision sounds neat in theory, but sadly i doubt it is going to work out in practise too well. knowing this game, its probaply going to be very janky with the auto aim system (or the "aim dressing") and will work very similar to old Freddy, where your attacks get pulled to a Survivor thats not attackable when they run behind someone who is, achieving a similar effect as simply bodyblocking you with endurance.
-
@Reshy said:
I'd rather some QOL options on killer. Make kicking gens do something without a perk. Give killer an FOV slider. Make blood not blend into the dark brown maps so much, make it easier to locate downed survivors so you don't get the awkward bush dying thing; maybe even make it so that killers have some sort of benefit for splitting pressure like gaining stacks of Save the Best, or some sort of perk to encourage hooking different people like No Way Out or Furtive Chase (Maybe instead make the effect instead of terror-radius make it action speed).
okay, but none of those have anything to do with unhooks or the BT changes?
like, you're entirely off topic here. This isnt about making Killer easier, this is about finding a fair solution to Survivors getting BT basekit so its not just a straight buff to them.
-
i'd say go for Trickster instead of Doctor.
Docs only really decent Perk is Monitor & Abuse, which is far from being a must have, Overcharge is pretty meh and Overwhelming Presence is trash.
Trickster on the other hand has 3 very good Perks: Hex: Crowd Control is probaply the weakest out of the 3, but it is a very strong totem nontheless due to it essentially deleting loops that involve windows, Starstruck is very strong, but requires you to adept to its playstyle and No Way Out is so good that i think its a must have Perk.
out of the Killers you've listed, my priority list would be the following:
- Plague (2 amazing Perks, 1 decent one)
- Hag (2 great Perks, 1 meh one)
- Bubba (BBQ is amazing, everything else trash - depending on how bad the grind is for you, you might want to move him to first place just because of BBQ - but in terms of overall Perk value he is actually pretty bad due to the other 2 sucking)
- Clown (1 great Perk, 1 decent Perk and 1 trash Perk)
- Artist (1 great Perk, 2 trash Perks)
- Legion (1 good Perk, 2 trash Perks)
- Doctor (1 decent Perk, 2 trash Perks)
-
to me it feels a lot like Tinkerer.
very strong on specific characters and / or with specific loadouts, but not very good on its own.
-
tough we'd need multiple hooks guaranteed in range, otherwise we got the same problem once someone got sacrificed up there.
-
a rework.
-
@Warcrafter4 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2779113#Comment_2779113
Being honest given that they can't read their own stats to save their lives...
They'd probably just twist low killers numbers into an excuse to nerf kills even more.
I mean just look at the Twins' nerf for a prime example of this:
Where the Twins are played so little that only mains play them and have a good KR with them.
So they are nerfing the Twins constantly as a whole because of the 2 twins mains left in the world are good players not because the Twins themselves are good.
just to play devils advocate here:
the pick rate of a character has very little to do with the actual player numbers.
in theory, the Devs couldnt care less if one specific character is picked a lot or not, as the overall amount of players would remain the same, just distributed differently to the other available characters.
but if people quit the game entirely, that is a very different story - because now they are actively losing players and therefore losing revenue, so they will want to do something to avoid that.
-
Ruin
Undying
Tinkerer
Corrupt
Pop
Deadlock
Killer: literally anyone
yeah so in short, bad idea xD
-
you really like getting bled out for 5 minutes straight, dont you?
-
its definitely a horror themed game.
but i would not call it a horror game per se - horror games focus a lot on atmosphere and trying to scare the player, DbD is a lot more focussed on action and brutality.
-
yeah difference is that NOED relies entirely on the Survivors to activate in the first place, while Killers dont really have a response to items brought in by the Survivors (unless they dedicate a Perk slot to just that).
also, Hatch is already a basekit function that gives you a free escape. it doesnt spawn closed and requires you to get a key to open it first, you can always just jump in when you see it.
so what you're asking for is literally already a thing, but as a base mechanic instead of a Perk / Item. Keys only get into play as a second chance when the Killer found hatch first.
so if you truly wanted to even the odds here, NOED would need to be guaranteed to spawn in when the 5th gen pops AND it'd have to be a base mechanic that the Killer doesnt need to waste a Perk slot for.
-
i threw the towel half a year ago and havent regretted that decision ever since.
if a game is not fun for you, you shouldnt be playing it.
there is no point in forcing yourself into it, all that achieves is frustration and annoyance - and at a certain degree it can even be unhealthy for your mental health.
i have had a lot more fun playing online games in the last 6 months than ive had for a very long time with DbD.
but besides all that, you achieve another thing:
direct feedback to the Devs.
there is no clearer way of telling them something sucks than when no one is playing it anymore.
Because if you keep forcing yourself into playing it, the Devs wont really act. We can scream into the void that is this forum for as much as we want, as long as we come back to play the statistics are gonna say "no problem here, we got plenty of players playing", so they wont be very keen on changing things.
so if everyone that doesnt enjoy this game anymore (for whatever reason) drops out and no longer plays it (and provides constructive feedback and critisism (you achieve nothing by being insulting or disrespectful) here on why they quit), the Devs are going to notice a decrease in playernumbers and will start wondering why people are leaving - which is the point time where they will be going on the forum (and other social media ofc) to check for the reasons why their numbers keep going down (and most importantly - act accordingly).
-
@dugman said:
Sole survivor on its own doesn’t directly hurt you or your team. Yeah, someone who uses it can choose to play poorly just to try and get it to work, but if they simply play the game like they normally would without the perk they are at worst playing “without a perk slot” and might get a benefit from it occasionally.
No Mither though actually directly hurts you far more often than it helps. Always being injured makes you much more likely to be downed and killed early in the game, and directly hurts not only you but also the other survivor’s chances of escape since you are active on gens less of the match. Outside of extreme corner cases No Mither is objectively worse than running no perk at all.
agreed.
and not to mention all the great synergies No Mither has with Killer Perks / abilities, such as Blood Echo, Thanatophobia or the entirety of Oni, making it an additional burden to you and / or your team when those are in play.
-
that would be utterly overpowered.
not to mention that it would literally make Sprint Burst, Lithe and Balanced Landing the same Perk.
no.
-
a gamehealth chapter.
though i dont think 3 months are even just remotely close to being enough to fix this game.
it would be a start though.
-
@Chimp said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2775945#Comment_2775945
" Coughs in Breakable Walls "
honestly, if they use some of those walls to block of current window locations in the houses, i wouldnt be against them (so no more godwindows on the 2nd floor, but if the Killer wants a way to quickly exit the house from upstairs, they can just kick something and create a passage way).
but knowing them they are most likely just gonna put a wall into the current doorway that leads on the balcony that can be found on the 2nd floor on some houses, so Survivors still have the window like they do now and Killers gotta kick something.
-
probaply Oni.
cause he likes Survivors being injured a lot, so CoH is like a big middlefinger to his entire power.
an honorable mention goes out to any Killer that is trying to pull of a hit and run playstyle (e.g. Wraith) or tries to quickly spread damage around (e.g. Legion).
-
@ssrjazz said:
Dead by Daylight is not survivor-sided.
Otzdarva did a great video showing why it is not.
DbD is, by its current design philosophy, Survivor sided.
if you have two teams of players with each member having the same skilllevel as the others go up against each other, Survivors win (given they dont throw the game at some point - for example like they did when Otz did the no Perks, no Add Ons + 30 sec AFK at the beginning Hag game).
The only thing Otzes video proves is, that either he is a lot better than most of his opponents, allowing him to still beat them, or that most Survivors dont want to play in an optimal way (so playing DbD casually for fun), due to it being quite boring, giving the Killer once again the ability to beat them (but only if the Killer plays to win).
but if you wanna talk balance, you gotta look at a balanced setup - so both sides have players of the same skill level and both sides play the game to win.
but why am i saying that?
here's the short version:
DbD can be boiled down into two seperate mini games - the "macro game" and the "micro game" as i call them.
Macro game refers to the overall trial, micro game to chases.
balance is achieved by both sides being absolute powerhouses in one of those cathegories and racing the other side to complete theirs first.
however, the Devs decided that it would be boring for Survivors if they only got to do gens (macro game), so they decided to make chases (micro game) "fair and balanced for both sides".
the result of that balance philosophy is, that Killers can not compete with Survivors doing gens (as they, by design, shouldnt be able to), but also cant race gens, because they are not oppressive in chases and they therefore take too long (as they should be).
Survivors on the other hand still get to be oppressive on gens, meaning the Killer simply put doesnt have the time to actually be a threat to them.
thats why 4 gen slowdowns and tunneling someone out asap are the current meta, because Killers need to somehow buy themselves enough time to end chases and hook players before the game is over.
of course there are a bunch of different killers and this applies to some more than others, but given the current balance history, the Devs are a lot more keen at bringing killers that actually achieve a decent level of balance down to "be more in line with the others / allow for fair counterplay (referring to chases)", rather than buffing other Killers up to be on their level.
i totally get and understand the reason why they decided to do that, but it leaves this game in a pretty unbalanced state.
which makes other decisions they made, such as introducing an MMR system, look significantly worse - because why would we want a system that puts players of a similar skill level together on both sides, when that just translates out to the Killer losing the match?
-
@Sepex said:
Haddonfield and the offering for it are disabled because the devs are currently in the process of graphically updating the map as part of Realm Beyond.
Hope it includes some balance changes as well. If I'm wrong feel free to correct me. Cheers!
cant wait for the new, fresh and exciting introduction of: Breakable Fences!
jokes aside, yeah this map is in desperate need for a good rebalancing.
-
@Aven_Fallen said:
Funny that you complained a few hours ago about all Survivors running the same Perks. And now they are running Boil Over and it is not correct either.
You cannot win with Killer players.
i honestly expected more from you than trying to feed off that "us vs them" mentality.
-
and per usual i am sitting here, bewildered and confused on BHVRs inability to just revert past changes.
PTB Gearhead was an okayish Perk. It wasn't amazing or even good, but it could have found its nieche on some Perk builds.
but when the Perk released to live servers, they completely gutted it. they reduced its run time from 45 seconds to 30 seconds and made it only affect good skillchecks, rather than all skillchecks. the result was the Perk being quite terrible, entirely outclassed by other gen tracking Perks such as Discordance or Tinkerer.
all they really had to do here was to revert that change. Make it last 45 seconds and trigger on any skillcheck again and it'd have been good enough to find its way to some builds here and there - and if they wanted to make it a bit better than that, remove the normal attack requirement.
the new change just... doesnt help the Perk in the slightest. like you said, its potentially even worse than it was before.
i feel like BHVR needs to learn to sometimes acknowledge an mistake for what it was (a mistake) and then revert it instead of continuously doubling down on it and somehow trying to make it work.
there is nothing wrong with making mistakes, but there is something wrong with ignoring them away.
-
no.
its not a bad perk, but its absolutely not at that strength level.
i think its a pretty mediocre Perk.
i mean, what does NOED realistically do for the Killer?
it gets you one additional down. after that, everyone is aware of its presence and should just leave you - yeah the Killer gets one additional hook and kill, but that wont really change the outcome of the match (unless you soley focus on escapes / kills when looking at a matches outcome - so in a way thats another great argument against that way of thinking). and that is assuming that it triggers in the first place or doesnt blow up shorty after activating, at which point its utterly useless and cant even get you that one kill secured.
the only way NOED wins a Killer the match or anything close to that is, when the Survivors, despite knowing of its existance, throw themselves at the hook because they'd rather all die than leave their friend behind / get overconfident and think they could get away with stupid actions because they "already won" (e.g. running in to bodyblock for a friend mid chase).
-
yep, thats what happens when you remove everything unique and fun from a character and call it a day.
-
its definitely not the best multiplayer game ever created.
its unique in what it does and its the best of its genre (currently), but it is absolutely not comparable to some of the big names of other multiplayer genres - it just has too many flaws for that.
-
obviously it is your duty as a killer to pick them up, let them wiggle out and give them hatch now.
everything else is just omega ultra super toxic and you are a horrible person if you dont do that, which gives them all the right to complain about you for ruining their gameplay experience and expectation of a win, which they definitely deserved after they outplayed you that hard.
/s
-
@Ula said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2761488#Comment_2761488
It's not about performance.
Do you think it's fair that a bubba facecamping a survivor right at the start gets a free 2 kill thanks to noed?
And that is because you can't rescue a survivor in front of a decent bubba and you have barely the time to smash 5 gens while someone is getting facecamped, so you can't do dull totems.
This is the best exemple I have to say noed sucks in its current state, and this kind of exemple is very commun, and it usually even turns into 4k when I go solo queue.
thats not an issue with NOED, thats an issue with how facecamping works.
-
@TragicSolitude said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2765267#Comment_2765267
Credit where credit is due, that's a great write-up of the game's core problem. I've pointed this out many times (but without understanding the more intricate game balance mechanics you just went into): Generators aren't fun.
This game's back-and-forth is busted. Watching the two sides discuss what they enjoy highlights the problem. Survivors talk about loving long chases, and the ones who don't play killer a lot are confused why so many killers don't like long chases. Because long chases lose the game. The killer feels that time crunch constantly.
I think gen slow-down perks are horrible. There should be some sort of tug-of-war base mechanic that makes slowing down the survivors' objective more interactive for both sides. People should be able to pick perks for fun, not to deal with the aspects of the game they find most frustrating.
Those're my feelings, though. Not necessarily fact.
yeah, i honestly think their philosophy when it comes to creating Perks is flawed.
IMO a Perk should be a sidegrade, something that is not necessarily stronger than your basic loadout, but different.
a Perk should buff you in one specific way, but then also nerf you in another, so you specialise on one thing at the cost of being weaker in another - a great example for that would be Shadowborn and Lightborn in their original form.
in case you dont know, Shadowborn used to make the map you were playing on significantly brighter (so you get a buff in tracking due to it being easier to see Survivors) at the cost of it being significantly easier to flashlightblind you (so you got nerfed in your defense against altruism and save attempts) and Lightborn did the exact opposite. I even think using those two Perks together cancelled both out and just gave you the normal brightness and flashlight resistance.
i dont really like Perks that come with all upsides and no downsides, they just end up being a direct upgrade to your character and are therefore going to be used by anyone that can use them (The MetaTM is born) - and in DbDs case its even gone so far that you directly rely on having certain Perks, as the game has been balanced around them at this point (Survivors need exhaustion Perks and Killers need gen defense Perks).
but thats another one of those things that will most likely never change, unless the devs decide to redo the game from the ground up.
also, thanks for reading my other comment - glad to hear i didnt utterly waste my time typing all that out! most people see a wall of text like that and instantly skip it, so i was a bit anxious that it might just end up being a ton of time wasted for nothing. and i'm glad to see that i'm not alone with that stance on the game ^^
-
i'll try to explain my thoughts on this as good as i can, my apologies if this ends up being a rather long read.
the issue at hand here is a much greater one than what you described. its not that the Devs were clueless or random (at least i dont believe that), it actually makes a terrifyingly lot of sense that they'd be doing what they are doing.
their goal is not to achieve a balanced game, they outright admitted that. what they are balancing for is "fun" - not necessarily a bad idea, but they are going at it the wrong way.
let me explain:
this game can be split up in two seperate games - i like to call them the "macro game" and the "micro game". one is the overall trial, its what happens around the entire map. this is what i call the "macro game", boiled down it refers to Survivors completing their main objective and progressing the match, and it is designed to be dominated by the Survivor side. The other one would be what happens in a very specific section of the map, centered around the Killer. this is what i call the "micro game", boiled down it refers to chases and 1v1 interactions between the two sides, and it is designed to be dominated by the Killer side.
the overall balance concept here is, that both sides are dominant in one aspect of the game and need to rush their objective quicker than the other side can with theirs and whoever does it better wins the overall game.
in order for this balance to be achieved however, there is one requirement: both sides need to be extremely strong in one aspect of the game, but weak in the other. Killers are superior to Survivors in terms of individual strength, but Survivors have the superior numbers and can therefore contest more objectives simultaneously than the Killer could defend.
in other words, a balanced game of Dead by Daylight would require both sides to focus on their strong suit in order to beat the other side, meaning Killers have very short chases and hook people a lot, while Survivors repair gens for a vast majority of their game.
now lets go back to the Devs original statement that they want to balance around "fun" - is it fun to be repairing generators for a majority of your match? no. generators are a boring task, people dont want to do them, especially not for a vast majority of their games.
This however leaves us with an issue - if this game were balanced, Survivors had nothing to enjoy. chases would be very killersided and short and gens just arent exciting in the slightest, people would, understandably so, quit. And given that Survivors make a majority of this games playerbase that would be extremely bad.
so when the Devs noticed this, they made their decision to stop trying to balance this game. instead they decided to go for an approach that tries to maximise player fun and therefore looked around what else there was that could be enjoyable - which are chases. chases are thrilling, fast paced and full of action, so they made the decision to balance the game around those instead.
this however results in a new problem - Killers suddenly feel underpowered. and understandably so, after all they, by design, can not compete in the "macro game", but now they are also significantly weaker in the "micro game", which they should be super strong in.
they no longer have anything to really compete with Survivors, because they get obliterated when trying to compete with gens, but are way too slow when trying to chase aswell, due to the Devs new balance philosophy that says both sides need to be on a relatively equal strength level in 1v1 interactions to maximise player "fun".
this is why they keep nerfing weak Killers, not because they might actually be too strong, but because they can chase well and are therefore labled "unfun".
this is the reason why the Twins got their chase related Add Ons nerfed, this is why Deathslinger got gutted, despite both being the opposite of a strong Killer.
if anything, i would call old Deathslinger a perfectly balanced Killer. He was the embodyment of the old balance philosophy, he was a Dead by Daylight Killer done right. more Killers should work the way old Deathslinger did, not the other way around.
and this leads us to yet another problem: Killers arent having fun. they feel powerless - and they are. the entire game is stacked against them.
all our current problems with the game (well, a lot of them) are actually not an individual problem, but a sympthom of another, much deeper issue.
and im going back to the start here: that issue is how generators are designed. the Survivors main objective is incredibly boring, people dont want their game to just be that. its a flaw in this games core design and it leads to a lot of other problems, most of which can not be fixed without this issue being addressed first.
In other words, i have given up on the thought that this game is ever going to be balanced in a way where Killers dont feel outright underpowered. There are definitely more issues this game has than just this, but none go as deep as the one i just described (the only one even just close to that would be that Perks are way too good - and even that one is linked to this in a way (especially for all the anti gen perks Killers received as a band aid fix to try and deal with gen speeds)).
maybe if they ever do a Dead by Daylight two where they fundamentally rework the game we got a chance.
TL;DR
the devs balance around "fun" and generators arent fun to do, therefore they balance around chases instead. this leaves Killers feeling underpowered, because they can not compete gens and cant down and hook survivors fast enough to compete with their completion speed either.
the core issue are generators and how they were designed, but its embedded too deep into DbD to ever be addressed and changed accordingly.
-
well, from what the trailer showed it seems like you're just gonne be looking for some reskinned Glyphs.
-
@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2761642#Comment_2761642
That it's not a punishment is the problem.
If those players go down in mmr then you suddenly have a mmr bracket where it's full of those players who are going against newer players.
Nobody would want to learn the game if that was the case.
These cheese strats need to count as wins too so those players start facing opponents who can deal with it.
For example in starcraft a zerg rush also isn't the epitome of skill but if you won with it you still went up in rank
yes thats why i said a MMR system should encourage players to want to be in high levels, which our current one entirely fails to do (not just that, it actively encourages people to want to do the opposite, because high MMR games just arent fun and you dont get anything for your troubles).
also, we're kinda drifting off into a different discussion here - OP is about determining a players skill, not the accuracy of a matchmaking system. if we were to discuss the matchmaking system in itself, i'd bring up the argument that a game like DbD doesnt need an MMR system in the first place and instead should work with a much more vague system that is mainly focussed on seperating new players from experienced ones.
we simply do not need a very accurate matchmaking system that puts players of equal skill against each other - that may sound neat in theory, but would actually be harmful to a game like DbD, at least in its current state where skill is outshined rather significantly by RNG.
besides, its pretty pointless to try and discuss how accurate MMR is or how we could improve the system, given that the Devs literally just admitted in yesterdays stream that it doesnt matter, due to the system not being taken into account a whole lot when determining your opponents - due to a rather significant gap in their playerbase, meaning one side would literally have to wait hours before they'd be able to get into a match (that therefore would be balanced).
so they prioritize queue times over accuracy - which is definitely the smart thing to do in a scenario like this. its the lesser of two evils.
and in return that means that they'd need to fix the issues that cause one side to not want to play anymore before they would even be able to think about making an accurate matchmaking system.
and honestly, i highly doubt that is ever going to happen in this games lifetime. the issue that causes the issue that makes people quit is imbedded so deeply into this game that i dont ever see it being fixed without them releasing a Dead by Daylight 2 where they fundamentally rework some key aspects of the current game and improve them significantly. (in case you're curious: they'd have to fundamentally rework the Survivors primary objective (so essentially delete gens and add something completely new) and then completely rebalance everything around that (perks, abilities, maps, ...), which is, simply put, not going to happen)
-
funnily enough, by nerfing the Add Ons that dont relate to camping, they just made camping the even more optimal strategy.
its like that time where they nerfed Deathslingers attack after aiming down sights because bad Slingers always used ADS spam to slowly zone out Survivors, but then removed everything else from his ability and turned him into a killer that needs to slowly zone out survivors to catch them...
-
@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2761537#Comment_2761537
No, the hillbilly is clearly better.
That said, despite them calling it skill based matchmaking (horrible name) it is first and foremost a matchmaking tool.
Should the 2hook 2 k facecamper face weaker survivors? Or should they face stronger ones?
well, in theroy a 2 / 2 outcome is considered a draw and therefore their opponents shouldnt get any weaker or stronger.
but nontheless, yes i do think someone that plays like that should have their game counted as a loss for them and move down in their matchmaking rating.
but due to how MMR works, that is literally not a punishment, because you dont get anything for actually getting a high rating, so in return there is also nothing you'd miss out on when you dont get it, which makes you not want to level up in the first place - which is another glaring design flaw i think this system has.
-
@gendoss said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2761568#Comment_2761568
No I'm saying that face camping is too strong and needs to be mitigated somehow (possibly with a basekit BT?).
alright listen, you're gonna have to pick your poison here.
A: facecamping is too simple and easy to do, therefore kills alone dont actually say anything about an individuals skill level
B: kills are a great factor at determining an individuals skill level and therefore playing in the way i described above is actually very skillfull.
you cant have it both ways.
-
@gendoss said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2761537#Comment_2761537
So your problem should be with face camping being too powerful. If it's easy to be better than a Hillbilly who didn't camp then we should do something about face camping cuz I agree with that.
... so you are saying that because facecamping is so strong and easy to do, kills are not a good indicator for skill currently?