Laluzi
Laluzi
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- Laluzi
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@Pizzasauce said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2723485#Comment_2723485
The only time it really bothers me is if they're doing the sabo hooks and immediately start sabotaging right beside you. Like, they're sabotaging the hook AND you.
Yeah, that's dumb. I always bring protective gloves when I'm doing that challenge just to minimize team-bothering. And even then, I walk away from the hooks everyone spawns at because it's a recipe for survivors to start pointing at me.
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God, I hope so. It's a collab that'd rake in the big bucks. Everyone wants those legendary skins.
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I won't deliberately kill my teammates or let them die to get a challenge, and I won't be a potato all match either. However, I will do actions that put the team at risk if a challenge hinges on them - opening the gates early, going down at the start, fighting for an unhook (only for Blood Debt or unhook 4x in one match, I'm chill about progress-over-several-matches challenges), saboing random hooks, or being a useless butterball and hiding in the killer's TR for 30 seconds. Once I got fed up and sandbagged teammates on a gen to take protection hits because all the legitimate protection hits weren't counting, but I think that's the worst I've done.
As killer, I'll ######### myself however I have to - begging to farm, spending games doing nothing but kicking generators, refusing to M1 and only M2ing, refusing to attack until Beast of Prey kicks in... It's only my dignity on the line and I can blow it however I want to.
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Survivor queues always tend to exceed killer queues at night (US time), when people can coordinate with their SWFs and everyone's online. When they exceed killer queues during the day as well, or the nighttime queues take upwards of 15 minutes, it signifies an unusually low number of killers - which comes from any number of factors, but poor QoL and bad game balance are chief among them.
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I still have games continue when a survivor sees my fountain and DCs seconds in. AFAIK, the match ending 30 seconds in happens when a player DCed during loading, but the match didn't properly register that happening and booted up anyway. As killer, you can usually tell it's about to happen because you won't be able to use your power and there's sometimes a weird rubberbanding effect.
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Breakable walls as implemented on most maps are a pointless chore that the killer has to address immediately or lose a chase when a survivor enters that area. It's like Trapper picking up his traps, but for everyone and with no benefit to doing it, only the removal of an unfair detriment.
There's only a few breakable walls that I actually like - Badham (though screw everything else about that map), a few of the Midwich and Dead Dawg ones (both of these maps have god window walls too), and Gideon. Those ones actually represent opportunity costs and there are reasons to keep them up or take them down, which may change dynamically in your match.
God window breakable walls are just stupid and my least favorite part of map updates.
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I got stuck on a generator recently. No progress was being made, and the killer kept hitting me and it'd go right through me. It did wear off eventually (maybe 20 seconds later?) and the two of us sort of went "that was weird" and experimented a bit before resuming the match.
I think it's server issues. Inability to pick up survivors is most frequently a latency problem (and can be deliberately caused, but if it's all four survivors, they're either a rare lag switching team or there's something wrong with the server-to-killer end.)
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@AngyKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2723348#Comment_2723348
Oh no! Not your 4% kobe chance! That's SO MUCH against people who exploit it to DC early, and against cheaters who can yeet off the hook with 100% chance!
Removing this 4% chance would completely bury the game! 😨
In case you missed it; my fix is based on the view that people cheating (script-babies who can yeet off the hook infinitely), and people who use it to rage-quit without a DC penalty, is more important than a stupid base 4% chance to kobe.
Heaven forbid. Such an idea will bury this game! BURY, I say! We NEED that 4% chance; cheaters and exploiters be darned! 🙃
You can't balance around what cheaters can do with your game. By that logic, we need to get rid of Trapper's traps because there's a hack that can make each struggle attempt take 10 minutes, and Huntress can't have hatchets because her power becomes godly when you remove her throw cooldown and give her infinite ammo.
You're supposed to kick out the cheaters. BHVR's currently failing epically at that task. I don't know how long you've been playing DBD, but this wasn't an issue in the first half-a-year I was playing. There was a brief cheater surge the month before I joined, I believe, and then in the autumn we got this current wave that unusually hasn't been dealt with in a timely manner.
For the actual game balance... I don't mind the 4% because for a survivor to be able to attempt it, they have to essentially be dead on their first hook - either everyone is screwed, or you're in potato-land/the random to a 3-man SWF and all the other survivors are ignoring you. If you struggle when someone else can unhook you, you're an idiot. When they can't... I don't care about the rare second chance it provides because being sacrificed on their first hook denies typical gameplay anyway. It's a bad-odds shot at the extra lives they'd normally have in a desperate situation. (I dislike Deliverance, though; too easy to use when it's a guaranteed play, and it encourages people to farm their teammates or ragequit when they go down first.)
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@AsherFrost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2723261#Comment_2723261
So you want white ward to always keep your item. That's the only change that would really do what you seem to be asking for.
Do you want it to always save the first item? What if you bring in a brown medkit, find a purple one in a toolbox, and drop it later to make a flashbang, which item should the game retrieve for you?
In fact, what would happen if survivors just dropped their items to make flashbangs, trade, etc.?
Who brings a white ward and a brown medkit? If you do that and kept the medkit somehow, that's your own fault for wasting a WW on a bad item. You bring a white ward if you have a very good item and addons that you intend to keep, or if you're arranging for another survivor to give you an item, typically an old event item. But I already addressed how to prevent item duping and handle item switching in an earlier post.
Wouldn't mind seeing White Ward changed so that if you're empty-handed when you die or exit the trial, and the item you entered the game with is on the ground somewhere, that item is removed from the match and returned to you. If you're holding a different item at the time of leaving, or the item was picked up by someone else or consumed (medkit addons, mostly), nothing happens.
The game does track items that were brought in by survivors - see the Vulture achievement - so I don't think this would be hard to do.
I don't see a point in asking the white ward to protect an item the survivor didn't enter the trial holding or isn't holding at the time of death, because trying to do otherwise would force the game to key every item a survivor touches to them, and also guess at which item the survivor wants via some arbitrary system of first-come-first-serve, item rarity, or the presence of addons. Too much work and too little accuracy.
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Small to no disadvantage? You mean the 88.5% chance that the survivor wastes their first hook stage to no avail?
Only newbies try to kobe, or players in absolutely hopeless situations. It very rarely works and it's not hard to smack someone back down in that second situation, since they'll be the only person up. The biggest issue with kobeing is that survivors can use it to cheat the DC penalty.
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@Murgleïs said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2723045#Comment_2723045
We explained multiple times why franklin is good the way it is for Hag that suffers a lot against items.
Laluzi, item thief Hag does seem to be a smarter Hag the way you described, making sure these items are lost for good (unless the survivor crouch you know, something very easy to do).
Also, you keep talking as if franklins vs white ward is buggy and doesn’t work as intented when it’s clearly not. Doesn’t matter if the killer has franklin or not, as long as you hold your item upon death you keep it. That’s your job to retrieve it or hide in a locker if you know you won’t escape by the gate.
Finally, if a survivor perk could counter a black ward, I hope so much survivors would use it instead of let’s say dead hard or iron will, or maybe unbreakable, or let’s say…decisive strike ? Now of course, they would have to all 4 use it for it to work, it’s only fair since 1 killer perk is worth 4 survivors perks since there is 1 killer for 4 survivors.
Seriously, keep asking for a franklin nerf, a weak and meme perk that nobody uses, except the last killers that are still playing for fun in this game.
Look, I just don't know what to say to you at this point. We're going to have to agree to disagree. Letting survivors keep their item when they die isn't a Franklins nerf unless you run Franklins to make sure survivors can't keep their items, because I don't know how many times I've had to say this, but White Ward affects the outcome of the postgame, not the game itself. Survivors that want to use their item in game are going to keep going for it anyway. White Ward performing its function should not matter to you and I'm skeptical that you think forcing the survivor to throw the game in order to avoid an M1 hit is healthy design.
Item thief Hag isn't necessarily better? It really depends on the character of the team you're playing against. Franklins works by default because knocking the item out of their hand in the space of one chase, and hooking them afterwards, will be enough to neuter a medkit. Likely a flashlight as well, but two hits will definitely do it. You can afford not to care about what happens next, and if survivors want to retrieve their dead items repeatedly throughout the match, cool for them. Item thief Hag uses four of her ten traps to keep harassing dead items and it's a strategy that only gets value if the survivors are attached to their item and don't pick up on what you're doing. I'll trap a fresh medkit or flashlight to prevent a teammate from picking it up, but once they're drained, I don't care about what happens to the item and I've got better places I can use my traps.
Franklins is not a weak perk nor an underused perk, dude. It's the understood answer to stacked lobbies and items that counter the killer you're playing, and killers equip it reactively. If it's weak right now, it's because CoH has trumped medkits and you can't reliably counter healing anymore.
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@Murgleïs said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2722423#Comment_2722423
Franklin hag is not here to troll, it counters sabotage, flashlights (big counter to traps, also prevent flashsaves) and get rid of medkits too (annoying for hag as healing removes her pressure).
There is a youtuber named Negoose that is a very good hag and play with franklin a lot for good reasons. Even at high mmr yes, I would say high mmr survivors are even more greedy and don’t respect Hag particularly in early game they taunt a lot. They will fall and be punished for the dumbest traps near items.
What I don’t understand here, and I hope you will explain it to me is why would you want to make it easier for survivors when all they have to do is retrieve their item at any moment of the match, against any killer that is not hag that’s very easy to do. No killer is going to camp a single item the whole match that’s ridiculous, you have way enough time to come back and get it.
You are saying white wards are rare, but what are the odd you encounter a killer that uses franklin while you are using a white ward ? Even more so a killer that is not Hag ? That’s probably 1 in 200 match ? Maybe more ?
Unlike you, I don’t think survivors would play the same way if they could keep their item no matter what, in particular against Hag. There is a psychological element involved to loosing an item, like special event flashlight for exemple. Just tonight I play against 2 white wards as Hag and I could tell beforehand that they were very attached to their items the way they were playing (a flashlight and a red map). It’s supposed to be a survival horror game, loosing stuff is part of the experience. And if you really don’t want to loose it you can go retrieve it and hide in a locker all game long so you don’t get m1.
There's a difference between Franklins Hag and item thief Hag. Franklins Hag is just to get rid of flashlights and medkits, two items she suffers with. Item thief Hag actively traps dropped items and plays around them instead of draining them to uselessness and forgetting about them. Same build, different playstyle. She's also the only killer that can really pull off an item thief build specifically because she doesn't have to camp (or because she can camp 10 spots without being there.) Trapper can sort of do it, but he's not a quarter as effective - what makes Hag so good at it is that she can instantly reappear to slap the item out of your hand again.
What you want explained to you... the issue isn't that you can retrieve your item at the end of a Franklins match. I've already illustrated how easy that is to do, as a reason for why altering White Wards shouldn't affect your experience much. The issue is that when you die with a White Ward and the killer has Franklins, you lose your item, unless you intentionally go down early by jumping in a locker and getting yoinked. Which forces you to throw both health states of your last chase, a time differential that can easily get everyone else killed (and you can't get left on hook or camped, for that matter), and also relies on a locker being near enough to reach before getting hit once. Otherwise your item is going to get knocked out of your hands and you have no way to retrieve it before you're put on hook.
("Hide in a locker all game?" That's just asking survivors to throw the game and screw over their teammates. Give realistic advice. I'm not going to tell killers to do bones to counter CoH, so do me a favor and engage in good faith as well.)
If you can escape the match, it generally doesn't matter if you have a White Ward or not. You keep the addons too, but there's a perk that can do the same. The point of a White Ward is to keep your item when you die and Franklins prevents that from working. This happens versus all killers who do not prioritize their M2 attack at all times or do not have one - so pretty much everyone but Huntress, who I've never seen run Franklins for that reason. That is what I dislike. I don't care if losing something adds to the feel of "survival horror" (which, if you actually get any of that in DBD past the first five hours, I'm genuinely impressed); if I brought an offering to let me keep the item despite death, I should keep the item despite death. Anything else is excuses to protect a mechanic that feels more like an oversight than anything else.
Franklins is not an uncommon perk to encounter due to its reactivity. A killer is likelier to equip it if they see multiple items in the lobby, especially medkits and flashlights (toolboxes are strong but difficult to counter with Franklins due to being used ASAP and nobody cares about maps or keys.) I've had a few White Ward/Franklins incidents, and only kept the item once due to getting M2ed rather than M1ed on the last down. I'm not torn up over these incidents, I can't even remember what any of the items were, but I'm baffled as to why people defend this mechanic when it shouldn't affect them and the whole thing heavily comes off like people being opposed to survivors being allowed to have items. I have already established that this should not affect the majority of your item thief matches and that 1/200 stat you threw out there, while lower than I'd peg it, should corroborate that. If the survivor wants to use their item in the match, a White Ward that will actually work on death isn't going to change their behavior. It will only change the behavior of a survivor that won't return for the item before it's drained but does want to leave the match with it, who makes it to the end of the match, and will not notice the trap. Everything else is immaterial to your playstyle.
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@Steel_Eyed said:
Artist needs significant buffs to her cooldown. Incredibly bad, but has potential. If the artist shoots a bird at a W gamer, she loses even more distance. Noone would actually loop her so no resources are used
You shoot one to swarm and then you fan with three. It's not that hard to make it work.
I think being able to do three into three would be too oppressive. If someone's holding W and successfully evading the birds, just ditch the power and chase them in the open. If they go to a loop and actually try to use it, bird - or place one bird to trick them into thinking you're setting up and then follow them out of the loop. She's a 115; she doesn't have the trouble handling this that other ranged killers do, and her power is good for zoning.
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Terror radii reflect two things; how fast the killer moves, and how far away they can damage you with their power.
110s typically have 24m TR. 115s have 32m TR. Deathslinger has 32m TR despite 110% speed because he can hit you at a moderate distance (though this is a point of contention and a very painful recent nerf.) Nurse has 32m TR despite a 96% movement speed because she can hit you at a moderate distance. Trickster and Huntress have large lullabies (40m and 45m) surrounding a smaller TR because they can hit you at a long distance. Artist has a 115% movement speed and a 32m TR alongside a mapwide ranged power because she cannot actually damage you with the power past a short distance unless she's already marked you, whereupon you've already been alerted to start running. (That said, I think the philosophy behind her TR and Trickster's TR/lullaby is rather at odds with itself. One of them is an oddball.)
Trapper needs buffs, but his TR isn't one of them. He's a standard M1 killer with a standard M1 TR and it doesn't help or hurt him any more than it hurts any of the others.
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I enjoy playing against her. I find the chases engaging and I like the game of seeing where she's positioning her birds and avoiding their trajectory while trying not to get zoned. I tend to skim loops with her and leave them quickly, using windows without using the pallet, but it's kind of fun playing that way, getting her to set birds and dipping - the only drawback is that I'm likelier to run the killer into someone on a gen.
I will say Pain Resonance is deeply irritating to play against, but I love it as killer, so it karmically balances out for me.
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I'd be game for removing the skill check and bringing DS in line with the other second chance perks, but having it be saved and used on command would be really annoying - the only purpose that serves is to weaponize it and maximize the amount of time the killer wastes. Considering what DS used to be and how the nerf fixed that, this is a step in the wrong direction.
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@brokedownpalace said:
I mean why does it even matter? Like how much do you really need to communicate in end game chat? I'm on console but couldn't you just leave a message on a user's steam profile if you really felt you needed to talk to them without censorship?
Idk maybe I would think differently if I was on PC but I think I would say "gg" or nothing at all in 95% of end game chats.
Talking with other players can be fulfilling. I've had people tell me things like how they jumped out of their seat when I gen grabbed them, or how funny it was when they pulled me out of that locker and they were actually just trying to reload, or to thank me for going down to save them at the end, or to say that was the most fun game they'd had all day.
Not things that really merit reaching out on Steam to say, but nice to hear.
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I think they put it in as a sort of lazy band-aid for complaints of toxicity - stop people from saying particularly awful things without actually putting in any effort to police the community, increase moderation efforts, or tighten up the rules.
Except it really does nothing. It's easy to get around if you truly want to say awful things, but it does nothing whatsoever for the bulk of nasty endgame chat, and it also has a knack for shutting down honest conversation, inquiry, and even praise. The decision to ban 'inflammatory' in-game terms like tbagging, facecamping, tunneling, and killing was a stroke of purest idiocy. And that's not getting into all the weird incidental things it censors like "prove a point" or "Yun-Jin" or "my camera."
Lastly, it also prevents me from reporting people who say actual awful stuff, because I can't tell if the line of slashes is a grotesque slur, a more banal swear word, or someone trying to talk about their Michael Myers and Yun-Jin fanfiction.
I'm very irritated that you can't opt out of it. It's a very bad and prohibitive filter and I never felt the need for a filter in the first place.
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@Murgleïs said:
You don't seem to understand that loosing your item to franklin despite white ward is what makes it strong for Hag. It adds to survivors greed and psychological pressure to retrieve them.
And yes, a whole killer perk (1/4 of his perks) should hard counter ONE survivor offering. That's 100% fair.
Yeah, you're right. I really don't understand why you're so fixated on ensuring that survivors can't keep their item and I don't think I ever will.
What you are telling me, essentially, is that one build with one killer, for the purpose of trolling above winning (I will concede that playing off survivor stupidity does get kills, but your motives are too suspect for me with that 'making them mourn their item' comment for me to take this as your only concern here), is undone by the small amount of players that have a White Ward and are the type of players who would run back for their item if it's hit out of their hands instead of recognizing that they're just going to get M1ed again and skedaddle, but simultaneously not the type of player who would run back for their item before it runs out of charge, now no longer having to return for their item. You are also telling me that players don't, you know, crouch over to where their item fell after the final gen while you're busy bothering someone else and slip out the gate you're not at. Nor do they ever crouch over to their item midgame, bring it to a gate or a secluded location, and drop it again. Nor do they Dead Hard past you at the gate (because let's not pretend Dead Hard isn't in every single game, we can practically take it as survivor basekit and 3 perk slots at this rate.) You're telling me that letting White Wards perform their one function completely breaks your whole strategy and therefore it has to stay so you can keep doing item thief Hag.
Okay. Cool. You must see a lot more White Wards than I do.
White Wards are rare enough that I don't think it's too much to ask for that they work. Yeah, sure, 1 killer 4 survivors killer stuff more important blah blah blah, but I am thoroughly unconvinced that it matters to a killer that they can counter White Ward. Its benefit is purely outside the match. In and of itself, countering a White Ward doesn't help you in any way, it just lets you annoy the survivors. You have derived a strategy upon which you can get value out of annoying survivors and benefitting off predictable behavior, but this was true before the offering came into play and it's not like the strategy wouldn't work anymore; it's just that the survivor who brought a purple offering for this specific scenario is immune and therefore won't behave stupidly unless they want their item in that match, which they might well do anyway because it's evidently an important item to them. Which doesn't seem that different to me from Lightborn in concept, or Calm Spirit, or even moris; the slot lends you immunity from a very specific sort of shenanigans while otherwise providing no benefit in the match.
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@MyPagio said:
I have just been informed that there are bully squads.. That explains a lot to what i have seen in my games.
Is it true? That they are friends playing as a squad just to bully killers?
Unfortunately, yes. This is a part of why SWF (survive with friends) is so disliked - while most SWFs are playing with their friends just for fun, and a SWF isn't necessarily dangerous or even good, there's a few imbalances it creates regarding information and efficiency, and arguably the most standout part is that it allows survivors to coordinate attacks on the killer. While these actions aren't toxic in and of themselves (flashlight/pallet/sabo saving, preventing pickups, chain blinds and stuns, healing mid-chase with CoH, bodyblocking), for some of these teams, frustrating the killer is the entire point and they aren't interested in winning the game as much as they are trying to make the killer miserable. You can find streaming channels dedicated entirely to bully play. These strategies can be mitigated, but it takes skill and game knowledge to know what to do when (skilled) survivors are mobbing you, and newer killers are the easiest prey.
You will, sadly, encounter these; more often as you rise up in the ranks, but even with new player MMR, the system occasionally throws you to players with high MMR because the last killer lobby-dodged them (whereupon the system goes "lol whatever" and grabs the next killer it finds, regardless of rank.) However, you will also encounter killers that are playing the game to be as nasty as possible - slugging everyone to bleed them out for the full 4 minutes, camping the first person they find to death while nodding and hitting them on the hook. Some people are just dicks and the game currently takes no punitive action even if you get a chat confession that someone was doing things specifically to ensure you couldn't have fun, or because they wanted you to DC. Unless the rules change, this kind of crap is here to stay and unfortunately has to be weathered when it pops up. You may want to go AFK if you're getting excessively bullied and a match will not end. They'll mock you in chat for it, but they will quickly get bored of trying to harass someone standing in a corner and once you show that you can't be baited into coming back to life, they'll usually do the last gen and leave.
Edit: I should note that some squads aren't necessarily "bully squads", but will bully if they realize that the killer is weak enough that they can get away with it. I see this happen the most with baby Nurses (both playing agaisnt them, and being one...) You can have four solo survivors who unanimously decide that tormenting the Nurse is more fun than doing the last gen. The difference between opportunistic bullies and bully squads is that bully squads have a plan, they're focused on preventing the killer from accomplishing anything from the very start of the game, and they will extend the game for much longer than bullies who are farming points will. Opportunists are easier to scare off.
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@SvarturSteinn said:
The devs have come out saying more than once they are committed to making the solo queue survivor experience to feel as rewarding as possible.
This obviously breeds a sense of entitlement and you'll come across a large player base that feels they earned their victory.
Anytime you even slightly inconvenience the players as an antagonist you'll see a large number of posts complaining about how your playstyle is unfair to them.
This sense of hindering their privileges is your bread and butter, your schadenfreude.
For ever T-bagger, for every flash light click, when you see them decry camping, tunneling, you're doing the will of the entity.
Endure, adapt, become the salt in their wounds.
Yeah, so this is a prime example of what not to do - become embittered to the other side, decide that the game has held their hand and they aren't actually skilled in any way but have rather been handed every victory by coddling game developers, and to delight in causing salt to players deemed entitled and unworthy simply by dint of what side they're playing.
This is part and parcel of the spreading toxicity. Don't be that guy.
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Unfortunately, this kind of behavior is very endemic to the game. There's no punishment for anything short of harassing other players in endgame chat (and even then, you have to use slurs or tell people to kill themselves/die horribly before moderation might do anything about it), and nasty behavior has been allowed to fester to the point where many players hate the other side reflexively and will behave cruelly to them because they think they 'deserve' it after repeated poor treatment they've received from players playing the same side you are currently. Other people just like stirring ######### and enjoy the anonymity the internet provides to rile others up, and a lack of deterrents means they can carry on without fear of repercussion. Some people are especially nasty and they've made the point of their gameplay to see just how upset they can make the other player - you've already seen survivors that will bully the killer once they recognize they're new and not very threatening, but some take it a step further by holding the game hostage and exploiting the skill gap or certain group plays to bully the killer into DCing or going AFK. And others still aren't actually nasty gremlin people, but they witness the gate butt dance and learn it osmotically because it just seems like the thing to do around these parts.
It's a major turn off to new and old players alike, and I 100% understand how offputting this is - it's something I still wrestle with, and it's the #1 thing that removes my enjoyment from this game. There are ways to mitigate how rude other players are to you, but it involves hampering your own efficiency in-game to avoid things that the other side doesn't consider fun, and you will still ultimately face compulsively rude players very often. It's best to play however you like and to remember that ultimately these are just randos on the internet that you will never meet again - but still, you can't exactly turn your emotions off, or not be upset that other people are being jackasses.
In cases where the survivors have made it to a gate and aren't leaving on their own, I suggest wandering around the map breaking breakable walls, closing the hatch, and squeezing out some last few points, if you don't mind spending two minutes of your time. It blueballs the survivors who want to mock you and Dead Hard out the door.
In the meantime... I think the best you can do, unfortunately, is be a good sport despite all of this. Ignore the players who behave like asshats and shake the hands of players who you had fun playing with - those GGs and bits of praise for good plays made in the match or interesting loadouts really count for a lot and help tamp down the toxicity in these parts.
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Yeah, this is a case where the cure is worse than the problem. DC penalty going off means every other match becomes unplayable with someone quitting if they don't like anything about the map/killer/offerings/how quickly they got downed/how quickly their hexes blew up.
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@Murgleïs said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2722035#Comment_2722035
DBD is NOT a competitive game. Perks, addons, killers and powers are not balanced around wins at all, otherwise survivors would get nerfed hard and you would be the first to complain.
Perks like insidious, franklin, peeble are meant to be fun. They are a lot of fun addons like Nurse having a fast walking speed but no blink, you don’t win playing these kind of addons.
If you want a balanced and fair game, start nerfing dead hard, ds as a weapon, bt as a weapon, gen speed, totem and gen spawn, map size BEFORE talking about franklin.
...Congratulations on completely shifting the goalposts?
I've got over 2000 posts in this forum. If you think I've never discussed any of those other things, or that we're not allowed to discuss relatively minor issues until BHVR gets around to addressing the major ones, which historically takes 2-5 years if ever, you're... very off base.
I'm talking about Franklins and White Ward because this is a thread about Franklins and White Ward. If you want my opinion on all of those other things, you're free to have them. In order:
DBD as a competitive game - This whole topic is very much a YMMV and while there's fair arguments for and against, I cannot take your opinion as fact here. I'm personally of the mind that it is a competitive game, and that the majority of the community also sees it this way, because it's played like a competitive game most of the time, not as a party game, and most of the variant 'party game' type elements have been removed or nerfed over time for the sake of balance. Also, I'd consider myself a killer main, so you wouldn't see me complaining at all if survivors got nerfed? Survivor role at peak performance is basically uncounterable and killer role unhealthily depends on survivor role making mistakes. I'm just not a ''killer main'' that believes killer uber alles and never touches survivor because they're stupid and icky and deserve to suffer, so to some people that looks like I'm a survivor main. >_>
Fun addons - I'd rather see more useful addons than 'fun' addons. Does anyone actually like the meme addons? If they're totally neutral like Party Bottle or they provide a viable alternate playstyle like Tablet Fragment, sure, but stuff like Padded Jaws or Scarred Hand are less 'fun' and more 'handicap' and the vast majority of players regard them as bloodweb clutter. I've never seen a Nurse use the iri you're talking about and I've played plenty of Nurses.
Dead Hard - I don't despise it as much as some people do, but I do still hate it. Validation made it worse with misleading feedback and eating powers that would have normally gone through and potentially hit the survivor on the other end of Dead Hard. Best case scenario, it cucks you out of the hit you thought you finally managed to earn; worst case scenario, it's a regenerating third health state and the survivor pretty much always gets a free move-to-another-loop card. It's not an enjoyable perk to play against and it's everywhere due to its strength and ease of use. It's second in line after CoH in survivor perks that I think need nerfing (but I do think CoH is much worse.)
DS as a weapon - in its previous incarnation, it was absolutely busted and by far the nastiest survivor perk in the game. Nowadays - I'd say 90% of the time, I can tell when a survivor has DS and wants me to pick them up. If someone's being aggressive after they got unhooked, and remains so after a BT whack or towards the end of the BT timer, they have DS, so slug 'em or let them keep wasting time by dancing for your attention. They can't do anything useful for a minute if they want to DS you, and slugging them forces a teammate to move and rescue them (or wastes their Unbreakable if they've got it.) If they try to run away from you and you down them and get DSed, that's not weaponization, that's just tunneling.
BT as a weapon - more annoying and more difficult to deal with than DS as a weapon. Equally easy to tell when people have it, but less you can do about it. Should be dealt with by making a survivor with BT active lose collision for the duration of Endurance.
Gen speed - in my opinion, this isn't really the problem. The problem is map resources and chase time. You'll do fine if survivors don't know how to use their surroundings to the maximum effect, and increasing gen time would punish the weaker levels of the game unduly. If they do know how to run tiles, it's difficult if not outright impossible to get your first down before losing gens, and this persists until most or all strong tiles on the map have been cleared.
Totem spawn - A mess. Some maps have good placement and some maps have horrendous placement. Totems shouldn't spawn right out in the open next to gens (hidden near gens, sure - those ones tucked in rubble corners in Crotus Prenn are pretty tight), and they shouldn't spawn in highly visible spots like on hills or next to trees. Boons created a new dimension of issue to this by turning previously helpful isolated catwalk/extra floor totems into disgustingly powerful killer diversions, but that's its own unbreakable-boon-related problem.
Gen spawn - This is an issue on a few specific maps and not really anywhere else. If gens are all very far from each other in real distance (accounting for fences and floor changes), this is an issue. Otherwise, meh. If you mean survivors spawning on gens, yes, problem.
Map size - problem. But it's less a problem with raw size and more a problem with the amount of fences, walkways, and diversions within the map - compare Shelter Woods, one of the biggest maps in terms of square m but with crow-flies travel from every point to every other point, to Badham, which is smaller than average but a royal goddamn pain in the ass. Size is a factor, but I think distribution of resources is the bigger one.
All of that being said? Franklins countering White Ward is stupid and I've already explained why I feel that way. Just because they're waffling on addressing the big stuff doesn't mean we have to put the small stuff on hold either.
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I tend to play pretty friendly - I often let people go, and when I do play to kill, I aim to 8-hook everyone before killing anyone, and I'll often spare players who I keep running into when there's someone else I haven't seen yet. So I don't get many sore loser messages. It still happens, nothing will prevent them entirely, but it's not constant enough to wear me down.
The sore winner messages just make me sad - or angry, if it was someone I spared and they treated me like crap anyway. People shitting on me in a game I got wrecked in feels even worse, because I don't have that... assured superiority, I guess. If I spare someone and they BM me in chat, I still know they only made it out on my whim; if somebody bullies me all game and then mocks me in chat, I certainly didn't prove them wrong. But they don't have a lot of sticking power. I get pissed in the moment, then move onto the next game for an emotional reset, and the whole incident becomes another page for the scrapbook of "remember that time I met some buttholes online?" I would very much like more moderation in this matter, because this community is on the nasty side, and there's way too many mean-spirited players around, but dealing with it... I don't have much issue keeping afloat? I would probably have much more trouble if I didn't play by the survivor rulebook, because when you don't, the abuse is constant.
Playing survivor, I've found, is fine - while douchey killers exist and I've met my fair share of them, it is way, way more common to encounter a nasty survivor in endgame chat than it is to encounter a nasty killer. I've had more teammates attack me than I've had gloating killers, and I can't even count how many times I tried to mediate when a teammate started bitching at the killer for something that struck me as perfectly reasonable.
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@Murgleïs said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2722006#Comment_2722006
They keep coming back to the item because they want to keep it during and AFTER the match.
If I had a red map and lost it to a Franklin Hag, I would to retrieve it to keep it after the match. I don’t need it anymore when I already know now where gen / totems spawns are.
Franklin is fun because you see all these survivors mourn about their item or get punished for greed. That’s why it’s a meme perk, I don’t want a perk that simply disable the item for the match, there is nothing fun about that.
Then you're playing to troll, not to win. No concessions should be made to styles of gameplay that are rooted in spiting other players. They're not healthy for the game to begin with and nothing of value would be lost were they to be removed.
Again: there isn't a valid reason to care about the other players keeping their items after the match. "I don't want them to because their tears are delicious" isn't a valid reason.
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@AngyKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2721998#Comment_2721998
You're fix is a good one, I'll admit.
But how long before Survivors turn around and cry that they should keep the item because they had no way to prevent someone else form using it?
I mean, it only took 4 years before they suddenly had some sort of massive conniption over White Ward working as intended, and Franklin's existing.
Seriously; why is it suddenly NOW a problem after 4 years? No one had a problem until one person screams that Killers are unfair because they made them drop their items, and an offering is not basically giving them it back because they want it.
It might now be an issue because Franklins used to just straight up delete an item, but the truth is that I've only been here for a few months, you've only been here for a few months, and we don't know what people have complained about in the past. This probably isn't the first time that people have discussed White Wards not working, and it won't be the last, because it's an interaction that isn't really that justified.
As for people complaining about someone else picking up their item - oh, I'm sure they will. People already do that in Franklins games, or when a random drops their medkit so you can self-heal/heal them, and then they steal your item and run off. But there's only two ways to deal with that - either implement a system that marks white warded items as special and deletes them from other players' hands when they or the White Ward player leave the match, or suck it up and keep picking up your item so that a random doesn't have the opportunity to find it and take it. I think the 'suck it up' system is simpler, but I'd be fine with either. But it does need to be one of these things; item duping must be prevented or you'll for sure get SWFs splitting their purple medkits and flashlights four ways.
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@Murgleïs said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2721269#Comment_2721269
Yes it does matter if survivor maintains or loses the item. Some Hag builds revolves around punishing greed.
Complaining about this meme perk is on the same level as complaining about Light Born. Ridiculous.
But that build works by punishing greed in the match. If survivors keep coming back to their trapped item to try and retrieve it, they get hit. If they leave the item until the end, they're fine and Hag will have wasted her traps.
Again. Explain to me why it matters to you if the survivor keeps their item after the match. You're not realistically going to play with them again. "Survivors shouldn't get to have as many items as they do?" That's just subjective complaining about the strength of survivor items. They have items in the bloodweb and they have an offering that specifically lets them keep an item even if they die. Using a white ward with a good item isn't greed any more than using a black ward and alch ring/crow is greed, or MDR/cherry blossom is greed. The offering should do what it's intended to do regardless of the other side's perks and let you keep the item after the match. It would be equally moronic if survivors had a perk that incidentally let them consume the killer's addons despite Black Ward.
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@AngyKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2721917#Comment_2721917
No. Look at my post; this can cause duping.
Is that hard to understand?
I already outlined how you could make White Ward work while preventing survivors from item duping. It's really not that hard.
There's no valid reason to want to delete survivors' items after a match if they brought a rare offering meant specifically to prevent that from happening. During a match, yes, absolutely, but afterwards is just spite.
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2721870#Comment_2721870
Mint Rag...honestly I'd say is about right for an iri.
It's powerful and opens up a different playstyle, but it does have an opportunity cost and requires a bit of skill and foresight to use effectively.
The deal I see with Mint Rag is that it removes half the counterplay to Hag's power. If you don't have a flashlight, good luck, because she's coming back to that hook/hex/gen/exit gate whether you crouched or not. Hag also takes very little time to reset a trap if she guesses wrong, so there isn't much travel overhead for her. As for opportunity cost - does it detract from her basekit power? I didn't think so.
Mint Rag won't help her if she's setting up traps at chase points, and they're just as destructible while she's busy with someone else, but at objectives, it's pretty nasty. Hooks especially.
I don't mind it myself - Hag is just way too rare for me to get chuffed about anything she has - but I wholly understand why people have an issue with it.
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Tombstone Piece for sure. Nothing else lets you straight up remove a survivor at ~4 gens remaining.
Judith's is balanced, even if it's not the most fun thing in the world to play against, but Piece is just busted. There's a lot of very strong addons out there - MDR, Alchemist's, Mint Rag - but I don't think any can hold a candle to that one.
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I do think it's rather stupid that Franklins negates White Ward. Like, it's not even a gameplay advantage. Does it actually matter that the survivor maintains or loses the item in postgame? What the survivor keeps into the next game isn't any of your concern unless you're actively trying to spite them. I'm not saying White Ward should prevent Franklins from working, but Franklins shouldn't prevent White Ward from working either - and unless your final down is via M2, Franklins is going to stop the White Ward from working.
Wouldn't mind seeing White Ward changed so that if you're empty-handed when you die or exit the trial, and the item you entered the game with is on the ground somewhere, that item is removed from the match and returned to you. If you're holding a different item at the time of leaving, or the item was picked up by someone else or consumed (medkit addons, mostly), nothing happens.
The game does track items that were brought in by survivors - see the Vulture achievement - so I don't think this would be hard to do.
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Reminds me of my favorite horror flick, where the protagonist escapes the psycho killer by running sixteen laps around their house and dropping a piece of lumber on them.
I cried at the end. Great movie.
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It's a fantastic perk, but it's one that doesn't really improve survivor performance past the existing skill cap. Players with excellent tile knowledge and comms won't perform much better with Windows than without it, but players without memorized maps and no idea what their teammates are doing really benefit from it.
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I love the aesthetic, think the detail and unique assets are absolutely gorgeous, and think it's fairly balanced as a map. However, I dislike the noises from the floating ink and I also dislike the recent trend of super bright maps. I don't think it fits the spirit or aesthetic of DBD and wish it would stop.
It's also not a map that's created with all killers in mind; see Trapper, Myers, and Ghostface.
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@douggie123 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2720405#Comment_2720405
Break.chase is fine. But what if all 4 survivors are loopers. You ain't getting a hook.
Yeah, this is the issue. Breaking chase doesn't help you when everyone is on a separate gen and there's multiple competent loopers on the team, because dropping chase to find someone else is just starting over in a fresh location. At this stage of the game, you don't know who's good and who's a potato, so you can't make enlightened decisions on who to pursue. Add in people calling you out when you drop chase and sometimes there isn't a feasible path to stopping the 3-pop.
I'm not dumb enough to keep chasing someone until the end of the game, but there's times when it's a choice between the devil you know and the devil you don't. I'm much likelier to abandon the first chase if I know where someone else is, if I'm being led to especially strong tiles that will take too long to force the pallet (shack, house of pain), or if the survivor is currently using a window-heavy area (I'm making game progress that will help me later if I'm removing good pallets, but I'm not if I'm just running around windows and the survivor's doing a good job of reading me.) If I have no idea where people are, I'm too far from the gens that are being worked on, I've already gotten the Dead Hard, or I'm successfully converting an important part of the map into a dead zone and it's nearly out of resources, it may be more worth my time to go for the down and then consolidate around the portion of the map that remains.
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@Johnny_XMan said:
If you lose 3 gens in one chase, that says more about your ability to catch/break chase than the survivor's objective.
Eh, not necessarily. If it's the start of the game and there's full map resources, there's not much you can realistically do to catch good survivors that know where to run, and switching targets isn't going to help matters either; all you can do is remove the resources as efficiently as you can.
It's impossible to nerf SWF, though, because SWF's power comes from factors that are external to the game. You can only fix the issue by buffing solos with the sort of things that SWF already has and then rebalancing the game to compensate for universally improved information being basekit.
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Billy's nerf was twofold. They did a ton of things to reduce his QoL (that drunken FOV, just why) and absolutely murdered his addons, and even now, they're really reluctant to make any of them good - every once in a while they give a drip of decency to his absolute worst addons and make them simply bad instead.
But this also came at a time where a lot of similar killers to Billy entered the fray - Oni, Blight, and also Bubba more or less doing a switcheroo with Billy on how good they feel to play. Oni is Billy if he doesn't have his power available from the start, but everything else is better, smoother, more forgiving, and easier to use. Bubba is instadowns made easy. And Blight utterly corners the market on oppressive mobility.
Billy's camp is derelict these days because there's extremely little reason to play him; he got a lot more annoying and less rewarding to play while several more appealing options popped up out of the ether, either easier to use or with higher-yield skill ceilings.
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@Faulds said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2719487#Comment_2719487
I actually managed to get a bit of value every match i played with it: whether it was countering an exhaustion perk or making them cleanse way too much.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2719483#Comment_2719483
Even if the corrupt purge has its flaws with the hit validation... you are still much stronger than a basic m1 killer. And even more so when defending hooks.
It's not useless, but I prefer Thana for making people cleanse like maniacs. It felt like I was getting more consistent value out of it. If Blood Echo didn't have that cooldown, sure.
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I agree with this sentiment in part. I don't feel that some types of camping should be valid playstyles - specifically, players who load into the game intending to camp and do nothing else for the bulk of the game, and then maybe clean up the rest with NOED. I think that's no effort, no skill, and bad for game health - it creates games that aren't fun for anyone, and it's way too effective on certain killers to get away with easy it is to pull off. I would be 100% down for punishing that and making it nonviable, and I don't think anything of value would be lost. However, I have trouble imagining how you could successfully punish this playstyle without punishing all of the very valid reasons to camp - endgame, only one other survivor, another objective in the area that needs defending (which may be a second hook), knowing another survivor is hiding in the area, having no idea where anyone is, wanting to secure a partially progressed hook stage, recognizing the team is super altruistic and will probably rush the hook, needing to remove a boon from the game. I'm sure I missed some, but the point is, there's lots of reasons to camp. Players always need the flexibility to use these strategies and hard mandates for no camping, no tunneling, and no slugging would easily destroy the killer role.
I actually think Plaything does a fairly good job of being such a perk? It encourages you to hook everyone at least once, and to go out and about in order to reap the benefit of survivors being oblivious. The reward is game slowdown and super easy hits, both of which are negated by camping and tunneling.
Make Your Choice is another excellent anti-camp and anti-tunnel perk that rewards the killer handsomely for doing neither. Granted, it doesn't encourage you to stray too far away from the hook, but it wants you to go after the unhooker and the minimum distance allows both players to split up so that the killer can't easily down them both.
I'd never say no to more of these, though. We can always use more playstyle-altering, good-reward-for-playing-fair perks.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
because this community in particular loves to create us vs them scenarios out of thin air and then begin arguments over these makeshit scenarios spiralling everything out of control and forcing people to pick "sides" to have a valid argument (but no matter what side you pick, you picked the wrong side).
I think that's an effect, not a cause. People are so tribal here because they perceive unfairness and experience abusive behavior in the game and game chat (which strongly exacerbates perceived unfairness; losing soundly to a killer or team that's chill about it and shakes your hand in the endgame is much easier to swallow than losing to sore winners, or people who played like jerks all game), which over time congeals into resentment against the side they get the most abuse from and leads to opinions like "all survivors are whiny crybabies who want killers nerfed into the ground so they can bully them without any risk" and "all killers are power-tripping small pps who cry if they can't get 4ks every game." Those are the players who can't let us vs them drop and turn every single topic into a whataboutism game, if they're not just insulting the other side outright.
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Never noticed it too much when I ran it. I'd still get Dead Harded. The cooldown prevents Blood Echo from being as reliable or good as it could be, and even then, there's just better perks out there to use.
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@Kasamsky said:
It's not the DbD community. It's just how the humans are these days. Especially the younger generation.
This, but also a lack of rules against it, and ambivalence from DBD moderation from the top down. Communities that try to tamp down toxicity get results - imperfect results, but results. Communities that don't try fester and get worse and worse until it becomes their identity and drives people away, or something gets done about. DBD doesn't try.
This stuff festers - people behaving nastily give the people around them negative sentiments, which can become a vicious cycle.
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Loss of bloodpoints isn't a true deterrent. Players who do things to be malicious get more satisfaction out of griefing than they do (or want) bloodpoints. See players who rage-DC right before they die or survivors make it out the gate - you already witness this happen all the time.
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It can be tricky sometimes, watching the killer be friendly with a survivor while they're dutifully murdering the rest of you.
The rule goes like this. The killer's allowed to spare whoever, or kill whoever, they please. It probably won't make sense from your perspective and nobody will blame you for being annoyed or put out that the killer is playing favorites. However, the survivor the killer is being friendly with is not allowed to help the killer kill the other survivors. If the killer's pet survivor is leading the killer to you, or getting in your way when you try to flee, that's teaming with the killer and you can report them for it. If they're just spinning around in circles or following them around like a puppy, they're deadweight for the survivor team, but they aren't teaming with the killer, they're just being an adorable little unhelpful potato.
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@LoneSlinger said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2718672#Comment_2718672
Even with auto wiggle if you stand directly under a hook there's not enough time to wiggle so you could get died if you really wanted to
I will give everything else you said is accurate an I agree 💯
Yes (though it's very close, the auto-wiggle moves lightning fast and there's less than a second before you wiggle off), but you have to wait for the cheaters to stop paying attention to you and your attempt to get out of the game, because you can't get around the auto-heal - it's faster than the hit cooldown. I had a Nemesis tag-teaming me with zombies at a hook once and he still couldn't get around the instaheal.
Also, you have to do it three times because they'll auto-unhook you. All the ones I've seen brought 100% Up The Ante, so you couldn't suicide, either.
The only point I wanted to make was that it's insufferable to get caught with cheaters no matter what side of the aisle you're on. Unless it's a hatchets-Ghostface type situation where the killer is using their cheat to murder everyone very quickly, everyone's a prisoner to however long the cheater wants to screw with you. DC used to be a fine solution to this, but now cheaters have become so rampant that at high MMR, you can legitimately build a 6-hour penalty just from DCing against cheaters.
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@LoneSlinger said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2718591#Comment_2718591
Because as a survivor going against a hacker you just die or escape it's easy to leave the game you're never held hostage unlike killer
It's not that simple. Cheaters will nuke gens if you try to complete them before they want the game to end, and they'll auto-heal and auto-wiggle you if you try to stand in front of a hook and get the killer to kill you. It's still possible to die, but it's hard and requires a lot of trial and error. And killer cheaters tend to kill everyone instantly, but they have even greater potential to hold survivors hostage if that's what they want to do.
Anyway, I do support a way for the killer to prematurely end the game if it has the following caveats: it can't happen in the first 5 minutes of the game, it doesn't consume survivor items, offerings, or addons, and it counts as an escape out the gates for the purposes of survivor challenges and achievements. There's a few situations where the killer's only option is to waste time or disconnect, and a way out of all of these while preserving bloodpoints would be great.
The 'no scoring events' idea sounds even better, but cheaters can bypass this one by manipulating their own health states or forcing the killer to grab a survivor even if they're standing in a corner on the other side of the map. They're also free to blind the killer from across the map, or do a hacked minute-long Head On once a minute, or even tap a gen routinely to keep the scoring events going, since their form of hostage-taking doesn't involve hiding from the killer.
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Skilled Huntress is easy to cheese by farming. It's not too easy to get survivors to understand that you want them to wait a distance from you, because they like to follow you around, but they'll stand still and let you hit them (and you can try to do this on gens or the exit gates if getting them to stand somewhere isn't working), so enough trial and error in farm games and you'll chip away at this one. It's way, way worse on console than it is on PC.
Left For Dead is nasty. It's my last remaining hard achievement - the rest are just tied to characters I don't own yet. In all my survivor games, I've had a mere 4 opportunities to get this achievement, and I wasn't able to get out the gate on any of them. Unless your gen is next to the gate and the killer hooked the last person on the other side of the map, you're going to have trouble, because popping the gen tells the killer where you are in addition to the difficulty of escaping as the last survivor. Sneaking over to the farther gate from the last gen may be a good idea, but if they're too close together, it won't work either way. As soon as the killer finds you, you aren't getting that gate open, so you could try surrendering and giving an item as a last ditch effort.
Wake Up and Spine Chill help, but it's a hard achievement to bring a build for because in the vast majority of games, you won't have the opportunity to get this.
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@IsMmrReal said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2717315#Comment_2717315
I would not say they are my teammates. They are 3 other survivors with a common goal. I would not say I am entitled, but I won't pay something I do not enjoy.
Cool. Just never complain when anyone leaves you to die, screws you over, is AFK the whole game, or throws a match you did want to play, since you're apparently not owed any form of cooperation or basic effort from your teammates.
@IsMmrReal said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2717398#Comment_2717398
I don't look at it as throwing the game. I look at it as moving on to the next.
For you. Everyone else just gets ######### and wastes whatever items/offerings they brought, and slogs through a crappy unwinnable game. If they're lucky, the Nurse might farm, but a proper game of DBD is not possible when someone dips immediately.
The only reason what you're doing isn't against the rules is because it's mechanically indistinguishable from players trying to use the struggle function and can't be enforced. But it's functionally identical to something which is disallowed, and nobody splits hairs over the difference. Don't expect very much support or understanding from the rest of the playerbase.
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There's three different types of sandbagging.
-Teammate is trying to get you killed. Often seems this way, but needs repeated incidents or particularly inexplicable decisions in order to confirm this.
-Teammate is trying to help you and doing a really bad job - most commonly, they want to take a hit for you but get in your way. Also teammates that want to heal you in unsafe locations, get in the way, and alert you to the killer by running everywhere.
-Teammate is just stupid. Also applies to things like having someone run the killer into your gen without Bond, dropping a pallet with you on the other side, or both of you trying to squeeze past each other in a tight doorway - it's just an unlucky accident, typically caused by a player without good game sense.
None of this is new - you've just been getting unlucky lately. It's more common in lower MMR because you get more of #2 and #3 from inexperienced players. #1 is more of a constant in solo queue. People who grief in every match are less common in higher MMR, but it becomes more common to get a teammate that wants to kill you because you used shack pallet or led the killer to their gen or beat them to an unhook.
DCing's not the right answer unless it's the kind of sandbagging where someone has you trapped in a corner.