Iron_Cutlass
Iron_Cutlass
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@buggybug said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3908510#Comment_3908510
Flashbangs drop silently in the actual re 2 and re 3 remakes and in re 5 aster a two second delay while in re 6 it was buff to instant blind with no delay without warning in said games. Else the lickers one of the most annoying re enemies be even more op than they are.
They buff lickers in the remakes 2 and 3 that even the stand still trick don't even work as much like it did in og.
So if they had make flashbang make a cling when drop, they would easily dodge it even though they are blind their hearing is insane.
Point is ofc as I said a few times Capcom and most player who never touched an RE game wouldn't know this.
DBD isnt RE though.
Firecrackers make noise when they are dropped and have a loud audio cue to indicate that they are going off. Flashbangs are clearly suppose to be based on the mechanics of Firecrackers (otherwise having an advantage and locking it behind a paywall would inherently be pay-to-win).
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@HeyBlakee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3907908#Comment_3907908
youre extremely misinformed and this update is NOT what that is.
That collision bug waa fixed a while back. As well as the sound bug that made them quiet. This change in 8.6.0 is something completely different and they were disingenuous about it in the patch notes. They tried writing it off as a bug fix when its a balance change and just didnt want people upset about it.
Except it is because a developer/community manager has confirmed this multiple times.
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The Jerry cans don't fill up the gens that fast and you can't run without them leaking so survivors are left to walk which makes it easier for the killer to find them.
The distance between the Blood Pumps and Blood Generators is often small so you can just run between them to save time without wasting too much of the Blood.
From my experience, you can normally complete a Blood Generator in 3-4 rotations between the Blood Pump and Blood Generator, there is also quite literally very little the Killer can do to stop them from progressing if you play your cards right. My average time per Blood Generator was around 55 seconds per Blood Generator, much faster than the base 90 seconds for a normal Generator.
This is also ignoring the fact that Blood Generators also bypass many Killer powers or their speed outright makes many powers unusable. Ive really tried, but I cannot make Pig, or any set-up Killer, work during this event without getting severely destroyed by the game mechanics actively working against me.
Holy hell do people tunnel and camp.
When Generator Speeds are increased for an event and you have no tools to stop it, people are going to rely on shortcutting their objective as much as possible. Also, since the gameplay brings nothing new for Killer, and there are no incentives for playing the event as Killer, most of the people playing the gamemode are insanely sweaty and/or playing insanely strong Killers to compensate.
Tunneling and camping are already bad, this event is just going to make things worse (at least for the event queue). It really is awful, quite literally this might be the first and only "Im not playing the game at all" event from how awful it is.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
I am more annoyed they don't count for challenges.
@Crowman said:
Note, this isn't restricted to gen related perks. Killer Powers and Addons also don't work with the event gens since they aren't considered gens. Pig Traps don't activate when an event gen is finished. Freddy can't teleport to event gens. Ghostface's addon to block gens when finishing a stalk also doesn't work.
Also, from what I have seen, it seems that they dont count for achievements either, at least this is what I have heard from others I have almost all the achievements so I cant really test it.
So if you are working on achievements in the event playlist (e.g. "complete the main building Generator on X map and escape"), you just dont get it. I reckon a lot of achievement hunters are going to waste their time trying to make progress only to realize that the event playlist is awful for achievements.
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@imabakedpot8o said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3907213#Comment_3907213
The Spirit has entered the chat.
For real, though, that's super disappointing. I guess Killers can become invisible and kill Survivors that can't see them. But Survivors can't save a teammate when slightly out of LoS. Welp. GG. RIP Flashbang.
I guess Killers can become invisible and kill Survivors that cant see them. But Survivors cant save a teammate when slightly out of LoS.
Comparing Apples to Bananas.
Survivors cannot see Spirit's current position while she is phasing, but Spirit cannot see the Survivor's current position either. Both sides are reliant upon using what information (audio from both sides) they have and making reads based on it. Spirit has also been nerfed and adjusted a lot (rightfully so since release Spirit was busted).
Flashbangs are different. The range for Flashbangs was really far and the blind radius made it so you could get some absurd blinds. To make matters worse, you could also get blinded when looking away or when looking up because they were bugged, as well as the audio not playing properly, leading to situations where you just lose a down because of things out of your control. They needed adjustments.
To put it bluntly, the biggest distinction between the two is design and intention.
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Shoulder The Burden is one of those perks where the idea is cool but I dont think it will work for most players just from the nature of the game and SoloQ.
From my experience, Ive gotten alright value, but my main issue is in SoloQ, sometimes players yoink the save before you can get it and/or the Survivor who is unhooked runs straight into the Killer and dies in 10 seconds. Because teammates cannot see your perks in SoloQ and because there is no way to guarantee good teammates in SoloQ, you will face this issue often.
This perk can be amazing in SWFs though, since all the downsides of the perk are covered.
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I personally do not mind Locker Saves with Flashbangs, but what I do mind is Flashbang saves when Im facing into a wall.
Locker Saves require a good amount of coordination and positioning to pull off since the area they can only be done at is… well… Lockers. On top of that there are inconsistencies that you have to account for that can make them tricky to pull off. In fact, I would not mind if the original Locker Saves returned if double Lockers set-ups were removed.
However, Flashbang Saves when facing into a wall is kind of dumb. I think most people can recognize that the idea of "facing into a wall" is suppose to be the "universal way of avoiding blinds" and the fact that some items can bypass that does not feel right and significantly reduces counterplay for Killers.
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"Ah", "AH", "aaa".
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@WolfePhD said:
I keep hearing and seeing people talk about how MFT is such a big problem these days.
I do not understand why MFT is considered a problem right now. Does it really need to be nerfed?
I am willing to change my beliefs if I am provided with a reason that makes sense.
MFT isnt an issue, people just complain about the perk since it negatively impacts a player's experience when playing the Ghoul.
In a similar sense, people who get constantly destroyed by the Ghoul because they dont understand how to play around them also complain because it negatively impacts their experience.
Two sides to the same coin, and youll never hear the end of it until the Ghoul's usage rate drops.
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@Bodark said:
This game would be 100x more fun if survivors had proximity chat instead of Discord. Anyone who disagrees is in full blown denial/cope mode
I think if DBD were to add Voice Chat, it should be Proximity Chat since it is fun. Like hearing someone run by and scream as they are being chased by the Killer is something Id love to have, "THE KILLER IS ON ME, THE KILLER IS ON MEEEE".
But if players want to use Discord, they should be able to. Regulating Voice Chat is not easy and it would be a shame to see players get punished for playing well because it is presumed to be comms. It would generally be unrealistic to expect BHVR to try and moderate Voice Chat.
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@Mr_K said:
They could of come up with something better but rushed it.
I like the concept of the perk, I just think it needs some aspects of it improved.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3903901#Comment_3903901
Weird, and for what it's worth, it is definitely bugged at least in some way because the hinder actually lasts 6 seconds and not 5, so there's that.
I had a friend kick a pallet normally (immediately after I dropped it) and I waited to leave until it was fully broken and didn't get hindered. Then I tried again except this time I ran away during the break animation and I did get hindered. Wouldn't surprise me if it was inconsistently bugged or something. I definitely agree that the new effect doesn't fit the name or theme of the perk at all.
I personally would file a Bug Report but the Forums policy on Bug Reports changed and unfortunately my Player Log is not saved since I run the game through Proton and the container which would have my Player Log does not have one.
Ive posted about this being an issue for many different Linux users but the Forums seems hell-bent on keeping the policy since DBD is technically not designed for Linux despite the fact that there is a Linux build for the Steam Deck. And whenever I bring this issue up with Support or other BHVR individuals, it goes nowhere, so I just straight up cannot file Bug Reports whatsoever. So yippee, I guess. :|
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
Knockout's effect doesn't trigger if the pallet is broken before the survivor runs away (but it does trigger if they leave during the kicking animation before it's broken). So if you are insta-breaking pallets as they're dropped with Shred then Knockout will never work. So it's actually not good with things that break pallets quickly.
If the pallet is broken before the Survivor runs away (but it does trigger if they leave during the kicking animation before it's broken)…
Except it sometimes would? Dont get me wrong, DBD is DBD, so there are bound to be bugs and glitches, but I think it is the lack of consistency that really frustrates me more than anything, since there are times where it should have proc'd and didnt, and times where it shouldnt have proc'd and did. But Ill give it the benefit of the doubt since I sometimes misread perk descriptions (and even in other games, such as YuGiOh I have this issue).
And even if, Brutal Strength reduces the amount of distance gained more than Knockout does. Ive tested it even on M1 Killers and Brutal just seems better and more consistent. Like this perk definitely needs something because in it's current state it just gets severely outclassed by all perks similar to it.
I also want to make it abundantly clear that Im not asking for "old Knockout" back, the perk was poorly designed and was long overdue for a rework, but I was just kind of hoping for more with the new Knockout, and I waited before giving my final thoughts on the perk since PTBs are not a good metric of a perk's strength due to the lack of any form of matchmaking.
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It shows for me that the achievement for Adept exists but when I check on the Global achievement it isnt there. I would just wait a bit or restart your Steam/EGL/Console to refresh it, it might help.
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@BalanceBothSides said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3903427#Comment_3903427
Reporting you for targeted harassment, your opinion is not any better then mine , you are trying to derail my forum post and send it off topic. Nobody pays you to shoot guesses so kindly go take you're trolling condescending "holier than thou" attitude to another thread.
Just another survivor main trying to derail any talk about problematic survivor perks. You aren't fooling anyone, buddy
You are further proving my point here.
If you make more threads that come off as more genuine, my opinion will gladly change, since I think people are more than just first impressions, but as it stands, you are digging yourself into a deeper hole and I will hardly take you seriously.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
You can also just slug without running Knock Out. It's still perfectly effective against these strategies.
The thing Knock Out promoted was 4-man slugging from the get go, especially against solo players, which is zero fun. Slugging without Knock Out is still an effective way to get pressure, especially if Survivors are playing over-altruistically with sabos and Head On.
Im going to be honest, it isnt worth the time to really address this, this seems like bait. The wording posts in objectives and intentionally posts polarizing ideas to get reactions, the account is also brand new, probably a burner account if I were to shoot a guess.
DBD Forums has been getting a lot of these lately.
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I personally feel like slowdown perks are fine at the moment, they strike a good balance between slowing down the match without being too overbearing.
If you give Killers the ability to massively slowdown matches naturally through basekit changes without changing slowdown to compensate, Killers will still opt into running 4 slowdown perks not because they are mandatory but because they lead to wins with minimal effort.
Similar issues fundamentally existed for Survivor, back when maps had consistent infinite loops and triple the amount of pallets, Survivors would still opt into bringing the strongest perks to "win more". Remember that original DS, a 4th Hook State, existed when infinite loops were a thing, and people would still use both.
Eventually this stuff did get nerfed, but my point isnt about the content itself but moreso the idea that players will opt into perks and items that make winning easier regardless if it becomes necessary, this is applicable to both sides. Because "necessary" and "unnecessary" does not matter if you are playing to win, or at least that is generally the mindset of most players.
Realistically, if matches were slowed down further because of basekit, a LOT of changes would be need to be made to perks to make them weaker, which I think a lot of players would be upset by that since it would make a lot of people that players grinded for and unlocked "effectively useless." I also feel like some issues involving Generators being boring would also have to be addressed, since that seems to already be a common complaint, and it would also be made further worse.
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How long did it take? (Probably the most generic question to ask but I like seeing how much it varies from person to person.)
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Survivor: Sprint Burst.
If used right, Sprint Burst can be a really strong perk, even after all this time it still heavily counters M1 Killers and provides good value against even the strongest Killers in the game.
Killer: Spies From The Shadows.
I swear people are sleeping on this perk. If you already have amazing game sense, this perk can elevate your gameplay tenfold.
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A lot of Killers do get punished for missing their power, they often get slowed down and/or are unable to perform another action for a short duration. This being said, the window to take advantage of them missing is small and can make the difference between a hit/down but depending on the situation can also be too small of a window to really do anything with.
I am a Demo main, missing Shred can happen a decent bit and you are significantly punished for missing Shred. You camera is locked into a single direction which restricts your ability to see Survivors, you can launch yourself further away from the Survivor, and the recovery is painfully slow compared to a normal M1 whiff since Demo's ability is still based on the old base DBD recovery before it got changed.
As for other Killers, their "punishment" can tend to vary depending on the nature of the power. Dash Killers and High Mobility Killers naturally have to worry about them moving past the Survivor (among other things), Stealth Killers have to deal with restrictions/cooldowns and opporunity-cost, Macro Killers often come with the punishment of wasting their time thus halting their macro play, and any "striking" Killer has to deal with resource management, environment hazards, or movement speed penalties (among other things)… some Killers get punished more than others, some get punished less than others.
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@CosmicScarab said:
Unfortunately, some people can be really toxic in the post game chat. There isn't really anything that can be done about it besides report them, hope they are punished, and move on. If it really does get to you, you can always turn post game chat off, there is absolutely no shame in doing that.
As for why? Some people are just hateful and bigoted, some people are mad and looking for someone to attack for their loss, some people are just looking for a reaction and trying to hurt people because they think it is funny. It can be hard to do sometimes, but the best thing to do it try to let it leave your mind and not dwell on it too much.
I hope your next games go better and you find some kinder teammates!I normally have Post-Game Chat disabled but I really like Demo and I wanted to talk to the Demo player since they were on PC. Unfortunately the Demo left instantly so I didnt get to say thing. </3
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Honestly, there is no reason for it to not come back.
This icon would only show up to players who being tracked, which had the requirement of having Claw Trap or being recently scanned by a Drone, so it was not that hard to tell if the Killer was tracking you at that given time. More experienced Survivors would also often ignore being tracked altogether since they could handle being chased.
I think bringing this back only serves to help new players, it provides a more accurate visual indicator that the Killer is tracking them. On top of that, it helps teach them how the power works instead of throwing them into the fire and flames.
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This might just be me, but I think we should at least give them the opportunity to show us what they have planned. They have released the Design Preview but words on a screen are far less tangible than actual gameplay, so Id stick around until we get a PTB.
I can understand the frustration, dont get me wrong, but it's also just a good idea to not jump the gun just yet.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3900228#Comment_3900228
In your example, that one player who is consistently dying is either 1) not very good at the game or 2) very unlucky. Luck will average out over time with enough matches and get that players escape rate back up to the average. That’s how it usually goes for me. I’ll have a run of bad matches and then a run of good matches.
If the player is always dying because they’re not good at the game, what should be done? Should the game be balanced for everyone else around this bad player, or should this bad player work at getting better at the game to get their skill level up closer to the average?
That one player who is consistently dying is either: 1) not very good at the game, or, 2) very unlucky.
You completely missed the point while also managing to disprove your original comment.
Losing as Survivor can be rooted in a lack of skill, BUT, that does not always mean losing is a reflection of skill or lack there of, since there are many external factors which can influence rather you win or lose. As I put it, you can go on losing streaks based entirely on luck and circumstance, and experience players have gone on losing streaks because of this.
And also that a 40% average amongst all Survivors is not something tangible to really go off of since an average is not inherently reflect of an individual's experience. If they escaped a bunch of games in a row while their team all died, and suddenly went on a losing streak, their individual Escape Rate might be 40% but the total average of all Survivors within their lobby could inherently be significantly lower. Inversely, a Survivor's individual Escape Rate could be lower than 40% but the total average of all Survivors within their lobby could be significantly higher (since the player in question could sacrifice themselves for their team).
On top of all of this, some games where a player did perform well, but their team didnt, might die to elements out of their control, such as the proximity of Exit Gates, Hatch locations, the map resources available (if a teammate wasted them all or if RNG permits), etc. A good player can try to make the best of a situation but DBD is one of those games where sometimes you lose because of things beyond your control, and this is especially apparent in SoloQ.
Furthermore you have to deal with complications of dealing with other players. SoloQ is SoloQ, you dont get to pick your teammates, and there is no way to guarantee that their skill level is on the same level as yours. To make matters worse, it is also possible to deal with players rage quitting, taking their emotions out on other players, resulting in early 3v1 or a teammate dropping all resources on the map early with nothing you can do to help the situation.
Inherently, if you didnt catch onto my point, Escape Rates of an individual versus Escape Rates of the whole team is an important distinction, you can escape less than 40% of your games but lead to your team escaping more than 40%, you can escape more than 40% at the cost of your entire team, the % at which you escape does not inherently matter here since it is inherently not a reflection of player skill, there are too many factors.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
average escape rate is for solo queue is 40%. If you’re escaping far less than that, it’s not an issue with game balance. Plenty of other solo queue survivors are able to achieve this rate or better if the overall average is 40%.
Escape Rates are an average of the entire team, but they are not reflective of a single individual's performance. Let's say that 3 out of 4 players consistently escape, but only 1 player consistently dies, the Escape Rate would be 75% but that one player is still consistent dying and losing; things become a bit more tricky when you consider that entire teams can escape and die easily, so the 40% is become less tangible to really correlate to anything meaningful.
SoloQ is terrible, and even some of the best players in the game lose regularly in SoloQ since you are the mercy of your teammates and RNG (Exit Gates/Hatch) as opposed to your own skill. This is entirely because MMR focuses on finding matches quickly as opposed to finding quality matches, you are bound to get horrible teammates that put the match in an unwinnable position, and this is also made further worse with the "go next" epidemic.
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@squbax said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3899888#Comment_3899888
No I fully agree, maybe the comment is just repetitive, its just that idk why people think jumpscare myers is even good.
Because it isnt a good build. It's a fun build but not a good build.
(Idk why people think I hate Scratch Mirror. I love Scratch Mirror, it isnt strong nor is it meta, but it's fun, and I think DBD needs more things like that.)
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@Bodark said:
Hopefully is doesn’t go through. I play him a lot and he is definitely much better now. He does NOT need to go back to 110%
I think think that's one of the problems of the Trickster rework.
Some people like the new feel of Trickster but some people prefer the old feel of Trickster. Original Trickster was kind of clunky but the main appeal was throwing knives really fast like a machine gun, but the appeal of new Trickster that that while some aspects got nerfed or changed, his overall kit feels more evened out, which makes him appealing to some players.
I really dont think there is anything BHVR can do that would be seen as "the right choice" since the new Trickster has been around long enough for people to adjust and like them for what they are, but some people still want the old Trickster. It's a lose/lose situation since regardless of what they do, they wont be able to appeal to both sides.
For me, I personally like old Trickster more than new Trickster, but at the same time, I was never a huge fan of Trickster as a whole, but if I were to have either, Id prefer the old one more.
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SoloQ feels like walking around on a hot day with soaking wet socks on pavement that somewhat clings to the external fibers of the sock.
Like yes, you can technically do what you would normally do, but why would you when there are just better options and more fun ways of using your time. I rather just go home and put on a new pair of a socks or do something else completely.
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PTB content normally goes to Live Servers after 2-3 weeks, suggesting it does not get delayed.
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Because Protection Hits can accidentally occur or be forced by the Killer.
E.g. if the Killer hits a Survivor off the hook, but the unhooking Survivor is injured, that would count as a Protection Hit, and in the process, you would disable Decisive Strike and Off The Record in a single hit.
E.g. sometimes when you accidentally take a Protection Hit trying to re-position yourself, which would cause other Anti-Tunnel effects to get removed.
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DBD is as DBD is. Sometimes you just see some perks more often, sometimes you dont. I personally havent seen that many No Mithers so it's safe to say it isnt that wide spread.
Some people use No Mither for challenging themselves (DBD's Hard Mode), some people use it because they leverage the perk gimmick (infinite self-pickups) for an advantage, or some people chip away at old Archives since they have no reason not to (extra Bloodpoints).
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I dont use lockers too much until there is a locker right by a Window Vault or Pallet, in which case 95% of the time I hop into the Locker instead of getting the Window or Pallet prompt.
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3897404#Comment_3897404
Dredge, possibly, if it uses the Remnant teleport to force survivors away from loops.
Adding to this, it's decent on Demo, since Pallet Break perks dont apply to Shred, you can zone Survivor, instantly break the Pallet with Shred, and they get hindered from leaving the loop, often resulting in a hit.
Demo was already decent at this, but this perk really benefits them. Though it's probably better to use Brutal on other Killers.
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Part of me thinks that it is a hold-over from old DBD since you could talk with players via the Xbox/Playstation Chat, keep in mind as well that DBD use to not have cross-play so all players you would be playing with would have the ability to chat with one another, so the Post-Game Chat would be a bit redundant.
This being said, Idk how we havent gotten it yet, it feels like one of those features that is long overdue by now.
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A lot of these perks have a risk/reward design to them.
By remaining injured, you risk yourself by making you an easier target, you also make yourself and your team more vulnerable to various Killer perks and powers and inherently benefit from you remaining injured.
These perks can be strong, but that's kind of the point, since getting constant value comes with a risk, and playing it safe by healing diminishes the value of the perks. In a similar sense, you can run perks that reward staying healthy and avoid being injured and get similar (or stronger) results (e.g. Dramaturgy, Finesse, etc.).
Players can choose to weigh into using these perks since it's more than just risk/reward by weighing the benefits in comparison to their playstyle. Some people would prefer staying healthy and thus run perks that reward such, while other players are more confident being injured and thus run perks that rewards such.
I dont think there is any issue in these perks, I think they are fairly well designed.
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Honestly Im not opposed to making the Aura Reading tied to the Generator instead of the Killer.
Most M1 Killers will still be able to get the same value as before since they lack the mobility to capitalize on the Aura Reading, it just keeps meta Killers (Blight, Billy, and Nurse) a bit more in check, which they need.
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I dont hate the fact that they updated the UI, I had the fact that they removed the original charm of the UI, specifically with how grimy and misty everything felt, it felt more connected to the "Entity". I feel like there is a middle ground between functionality and aesthetics that would have worked insanely well for the UI.
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@RedMoonSH said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3897002#Comment_3897002
No problem, I'm just not an anime fan anymore. I'm just baffled we got an anime character before we get classics like the Wolfman or Frankenstein
Okay but it's still a massive W for the game.
Just because I dont know anything about Tokyo Ghoul does not really change the impact the content will have, people who do enjoy Tokyo Ghoul will come to the game and maybe stick around long enough to join the DBD community. Or just the fact that a new Killer being added is overall more variety within the game.
And even still, the new Killer is mechanically fun to play as/against, which is the bare minimum that I consider with Chapters since gameplay should always come before anything else. The developers have also been doing really well with trying to listen to feedback regarding the new Killer and have been providing us with information and future changes that they have planned which is amazing.
Like I understand wanting "horror classics" in DBD, but in the same sense, DBD also needs collaborations to help foster community growth and to help keep the lights on. I also think the Chapter will just be really positive for the game anyways.
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Youll get claims like these on both sides. It mostly just stems from tribalism since instead of taking the time to understand why things get changed, they are more upset by the idea of the other side getting something to begin with, because it isnt their role.
The easiest way to snuff that stuff is to ignore it or respond with "Us VS Them" and 95% of the time they will stop.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3896695#Comment_3896695
Like i said, Nothing personal, but i'm going to take word of official statements from devs rather than random people on the internet. The devs have stated that all negative modifiers are multiplicative, and positive modifiers are additive.
Nothing personal, but Im going to take word of official statements from dev rather than random people on the internet.
Oh, Im not talking it personally, I just thought it would be a good idea to further clarify my ideas and thoughts since Idk how well articulated they were.
Im not a developer, I dont have access to the game's code, Im just stating information based on personal observations and testing but DBD is DBD and there is bound to be some jank. 👍️
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3896573#Comment_3896573
IDK HOW MANY TIMES I HAVE TO SAY THIS, but just check ingame through testing or do research to see how it applies, not all effects will apply the same or how you think they would apply.Saying it doesn't really matter. If you have an example that disproves what the others are saying, just tell us the perks and people will go try them. Something like 'what you all are saying means X and Y should result in Z, but actually go run X and Y and you'll see it results in A'. That will make things much clearer on whether there is an example or if people are just talking past each other.
During the Hex: Thrill of the Hunt meta I explained how some effects apply their modifiers since some people were making posts saying "just use Counter Force" when Counter Force was not a counter. People were throwing out odd numbers with how long it would take so I did some test and some math and calculated that Hex: Thrill of the Hunt specifically would apply before Counter Force, and since Counter Force was a variable % (not a flat %), it would receive a diminished effect from Hex: Thrill of the Hunt slowdown down the action speed first.
Keep in mind, this is not as detailed as it was in the original thread but it an example of an interaction between positive and negative modifiers that does display that negative does go before positive. Here is the original thread if you want a look for yourself:
@Iron_Cutlass said:
I see a lot of posts saying “just use Counterforce to deal with Hex: Thrill of the Hunt” but I’d love to just collectively deal with all of these threads by bringing up some counter arguments that completely shutdown Counterforce entirely.
First off… let’s talk modifiers… and math…
For those who don’t know how modifiers in DBD work, perk descriptions work in percentages but in DBD’s code these percentages are converted into decimals and equations to calculate what happens at a given time. Based on how this equation is set up, it can result in positive or negative modifiers being more or less effective.
To put it bluntly, Counterforce got the worse end of the stick here. Negative modifiers are applies first. Positive modifiers are applied second. This results in Counterforce having a diminished effect at cleansing totems due to how the match works out for the Charge per Second (C/S).
- Hex Totems take 14 seconds to cleanse; 1 C/S and 14 Charges, 14 Seconds.
- Hex: Thrill of the Hunt applies a 70% deficiency modifier; 0.3 C/S and 14 Charges, 46 Seconds.
- Counterforce applies a +20% (or extending effect) efficiency modifier afterwards; 0.36 C/S and 14 Charges, 38 Seconds.
- Hex: Face The Darkness makes Survivors outside of the Terror Radius scream every 25 seconds, reveal their location, and interrupt actions. Even with Counterforce, you are unable to counter Hex: Face The Darkness, the cleanse time is just too long.
Second off… Counterforce is licensed perk…
This can lead to a whole set of issues when it comes to came balance. Licensed Perks are normally designed to be “gimmicky” or “really bad” to avoid being meta.
If a Licensed Perk becomes necessary to run every game, and the only way to actively get said perk is through spending money, it leads to issues where the game becomes Pay to Win.
There is the Shrine of Secrets, which sometimes holds Licensed Perks, but it is unreliable and might not even release the License Perk you need. There are many cases where perks (including Non-Licensed Perks) have not shown up in the Shrine of Secrets or take literal years to show up.
I don’t think this is healthy design for the game.
DBD Math can be really weird, sometimes things you think would apply a certain way just dont, I often tend to record videos of stuff and trim the clips to see the time it took for an action to be completed, this way I can at least work backwards to determine how different perks are applying their values. Sometimes DBD also changes effects, sometimes the way that they apply can be changed when a perk is buffed/nerfed/reworked, which results in the time an action will take being altered by it.
To put it bluntly, stuff like this can be really complicated.
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3896573#Comment_3896573
What you said is the definition of multiplicative.
Let say we look at 2 situations. Gens take 90 seconds, or 90 charges, survivors add 1 c/s.
If i have 2 effects that increase my gen speed by 10% and also by 15%, they add together to 25% and increase my speed to 1.25 c/s, making the gen take 72 seconds.
If i have 2 effects that decrease my gen speed by 10% and also 15%, that are multiplicative and applied stacking. So i start at 1 c/s, reduced by 10% becomes 0.9 c/s reduced by 15% becomes 0.765 c/s Which makes the gen take 117.6 seconds, which is actually about 30% longer.
The reason for this is because lets say they were swapped, and positive effects were multiplicative, and negative effects were additive.
If we had say, 5 effects that increase my gen speed by: 20%, 50%, 10%, 5%. 25%. In an additive world, this increases my gen speed by: 110%, effectively more than doubling my gen speed to 2.1 c/s. But in a multiplicative world, this would be significantly higher at 2.59 c/s which is almost a 160% increase. So its possible for them to quickly stack out of control.
If we had 5 effects that negatively decrease gen speed by the same amounts: 20%, 50%, 10%, 5%, 25% and it were multiplicative, your 1 c/s becomes 0.2565 c/s. But if it were additive, it becomes -10%. So repairing a gen actually unrepairs it at 0.1 c/s. Thus being out of control quickly.
The way I put it is a bit weird, so allow me to explain it a bit better.
Typically when you think of multiplicative values in a game, they typically follow everything else so they have the highest potential, DBD is a bit different in the sense that multiplicative values go before additive and variable percent values, this is because multiplicative values are designed specifically to scale off other multiplicative values being present, this is why effects like Call of Brine being stacked with Overcharge were so strong before they were hard nerfed.
DBD uses a lot of multiplicative values for negative modifiers since, as you mentioned, it makes it really difficult to reach an action speed of 0 C/S. But, DBD does have additive and flat modifiers that are negatively applied to action speed, which was my main point, that effects like that do exist. Specifically, the best example of this is how Thantaphobia affects Totem Cleansing Speed, since it actually provides a variable percent amount that happens after multiplicative modifiers (Hex: Thrill of the Hunt) are applied.
I come from the Warframe community, so a lot of what I do is math, spreadsheets, timing things, recording data, etc, it's needed for minmaxing gear, and this is just based on my own test, but I could have very well gotten the math wrong in some areas, I am human and I could have possible made a mistake along the way with my testing.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3896568#Comment_3896568
The devs have stated what i said to be fact in several places.
Again, Im not completely disagreeing, a lot of negative effects are just straight up multiplicative, but some are based on % of the modified amount, again, to provide a diminished effect and prevent action speed from reaching zero. It is based on how the effect is applied, and there are some effects, where if you test it, and check the math, they are not ALL multiplicative, most are, but not all.
IDK HOW MANY TIMES I HAVE TO SAY THIS, but just check ingame through testing or do research to see how it applies, not all effects will apply the same or how you think they would apply.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/440491/how-to-calculate-action-speed-math-in-dbd
Other thing to keep in mind is that negative modifiers are applied multiplicatively, and positive ones additively.
This is so that something can't be reduced to 0, or even negative, and something positive can't exponentially go out of control.
Actually no. Rather an effective is positive/negative and flat, percent, or multiplicative is entirely based on how it applies. There are some effects effect descriptions can be misleading as to how they apply, which is why I recommend doing research and using external sources.
This is so that something cant be reduced to 0, or even negative.
Most effects within a game are % based on a modified %, this is the most common modifier to see, these effects normally apply after flat additive/subtractive amounts this way you are only adding/removing a % based on the modified amount which would inherently be smaller.
We have not had math yet that would result in us reaching 0 action speed, but Im sure the developers though of this and put a cap on negative effects on action speed to prevent a situation like such, otherwise I would seriously lose all faith in this game.
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@zarr said:
Negative modifiers are not applied prior to positive ones, and even if they would be it wouldn't change the outcome: One effect halves action speed, the other doubles it - no matter what you apply first the result is the action speed is unchanged.
For an actual in-game example, if you heal someone with Botany Knowledge equipped while they are under the effect of Mangled, it doesn't matter whether you do the -20% or +50% first or second, the result is the same either way: 16 / 0.8 = 20 → 20 / 1.5 = 13.3 seconds; 16 / 1.5 = 10.6… → 10.6… / 0.8 = 13.3 seconds.
In fact, you can simply apply all modifiers at once, by multiplying negative with positive ones: 0.8 * 1.5 = 1.2 → 16 / 1.2 = 13.3.
The multiplicative and additive distinction is between negative and positive modifiers. The game multiplies negative ones among one another and adds up positive ones. It does this because adding up negative ones would cause -100% (and more) action speed, leading to actions taking forever or actually regressing (fun fact: some things in DbD actually worked like that in its distant past, leading to debuff stacking causing infinite healing times and such).
Adding up positive modifiers on the other hand does not carry the same issue, as all increasing action speed by 100% does is halve action time. It does however have the issue that it diminishes returns on stacked positive effects, and this is what actually "dampens" their impact: If you increase, say, an altruistic heal's action speed by 30% and 50%, the game simply applies this as an added-up 80% modifier (16 / 1.8 = 8.8 seconds), decreasing healing time by 44.44%, whereas applying them successively (16 / 1.5 = 10.6… → 10.6… / 1.3 = 8.2 seconds)/multiplicatively (1.5 * 1.3 = 1.95 → 16 / 1.95 = 8.2 seconds) would decrease it by 48.72%. I think there is an argument to be made that positive modifiers should also be totalled multiplicatively, such that their stacked effects aren't diminished. It wouldn't change too much at all, but it would make some perks just a slight bit more effective in conjunction with others.
Example: We'll Make it and We're Gonna Live Forever both increase one's healing speed by 100%, each respectively doubling it to 200%, but rather than halving the time it takes to heal times two when used together, this is applied as a combined 200% (added onto the base 100% for a total of 300%), so 16 / 3 = 5.3 seconds. But intuitively you would think it gives you a (16 / 2 = 8 → 8 / 2 =) 4-second healing time, or 400% healing speed because it got doubled twice. Which multiplying them instead would achieve (2 * 2 = 4 → 16 / 4 = 4 seconds). Changing this would only reduce the healing time by 1.3 seconds in this very niche, very situational instance, and this is with huge action speed increases at play. So yeah, consider this my petition to make BHVR tally up positive modifiers multiplicatively too.
Negative modifiers are not applied prior to positive ones, and even if they would be it wouldn't change the outcome
Negative modifiers DO apply before positive ones, and can provide diminishing effect depending on where what and how a modifier is modifying the number. There are many sources that confirm this and even the developers back in 2017-2018 have confirmed this, the issue is that some listed values are not properly represented based on the description of the effect, which again, requires research and testing.
The best example of this is how multiplicative effects can apply to one another, currently there are not many perks that actually apply a multiplicative effect but Call of Brine and Overcharge currently do.
Some effects use a % is a % based on a modified base (not the original base), meaning it will have a diminished effect if it is taking a percent of a small number compared to a percent of a bigger number.
Some perks do use flat additive and subtractive amounts, and those perks wont be affected by something like this, since it relies on taking a % of an unmodified base (the original base). This is more common to see with Movement Speed modifiers.
One thing that I dislike about math in DBD is the fact that flat additive and subtract amounts versus variable percents are not really properly explained, which is why I recommended doing personal research or using external sources, since sometimes things can be listed as percents but be flat amounts, or be listed as flat amounts but be percents.
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Most Rift Items come back to the shop but since you have to buy all outfits, it can be expensive. I think the idea of making old Rift Passes purchasable is actually not a bad idea, you can get a lot of cosmetics cheaper and it encourages people to play the game (and potentially spend more money on the game).
From BHVR's perspective, players who do buy and use Rift outfits are pretty much advertising their cosmetic store and Rift Pass system anyways, and creates a subtle push for players to maybe buy that cosmetic that they saw ingame, so this can be benefit for BHVR.
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From my experience, whenever you ask the community the difference between a Tech and an Exploit, it typically goes:
Tech ⇒ "Thing I like."
- Sometimes not intended but the community likes it.
- Technique is more of a "positive" term since it presents the thing as more of a "skill-based interaction where the more skilled player comes out on top".
Exploit ⇒ "Thing I dont like."
- Often not intended but portions of the community dislike and/or opinions are split.
- Exploit is more of a "negative" term since it presents things as a "flaw in game design, bug, and/or glitch that is being taken advantage of".
Exploits and Techs can be removed, but I think it is better for the game overall to add them intentionally as a more polished mechanic.
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@Yippiekiyah said:
It's a worse fire up
Fired Up required the Survivors to complete Generators to get value. When Fired Up has it's maximum potential is when you are already in a losing position. This perk puts more control in the Killer's hands since they only need to get hits to get tokens.
Also both perks do stack with one another.
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@Chiky said:
idk if this post is satire. The perk is absolute trash
It's not satire, I like QOL perks.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
Possibly. At least as long as he is played a lot, since the Perk is not good against any other Killer (aside from Legion). In the end, it depends how popular he will be, but given that he seems really fun to play and is decently strong, it might be possible that we see more MFT-players for a few weeks (similar how Hyperfocus/Stake Out was popular when Wesker was released since people could take advantage of the bigger Terror Radius).
Made For This;
- Improves chase against Kaneki, Deathslinger, and Legion.
- Acts as anti-tunnel since you get 3% if they hit you after being unhooked.
- Synergies with Endurance perks/items/addons.
- Synergies with Haste perks/items/addons.
- Provides Endurance on heals, which counters slugging and hit/run playstyles.
While Im not saying Made For This is meta, I do think it is really underrated, it feels like the utility knife of DBD, and you can build into it in many different ways.
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Knock Out was already useless against SWFs, and it destroyed SoloQ disproportionately, now it actually does something to both groups fairly equally. From my testing it was actually decent, especially if you use a Killer that instantly breaks pallets or relies on heavy zoning. I think it serves to fill a niche that many Killers actually needed, and it serves to punish Hold W gameplay as well.
The Xenomorph changes are horrible. The idea behind the changes makes sense but the execution of the idea was horrible, I like the idea of it progress towards removing their power stays longer but it takes more effort from Survivors to remove the power, but the way they did it makes it still relatively easy to remove the power. It also does not help that their Tail Attack is bugged and it takes way longer to perform the attack than intended, it does not match the values listed in the PTB Patch Notes.
Chucky is, meh. Buffs are buffs, and Chucky is in a position where they can take whatever they can get at this point. Frankly I think they need to revert the movement speed and range changes since the issue with Chucky isnt his ability to hit around long loops, but the lack of speed to convert a Slice and Dice into a hit. Haste perks are still a requirement even after the change, which sucks.
New Killer is buggy and does need more work but the concept for the Killer is really fun and I hope they listen to community feedback and tighten things up for the live release, since this could very well be one of their best chapter releases in awhile. His perks are interesting and I dont think they are that weak but I dont think they are that strong either, I think they hit that sweet spot in terms of balancing where they are decent enough to consider using but not meta-defining either.
Terror Radius changes are alright. High mobility Killers have a larger Terror Radius (thus larger area to warn Survivors) makes sense but I think BHVR forgot that Terror Radius perks exist and it unironically kind of buffed them since they now have the ability to use perks like Coulrophobia and Infectious Fright (paired with Distressing) to slug the entire team. Though we also got the surrender option in the same PTB anyways.
The other perk changes were fine, nothing super noteworthy since it was mostly just value changes; dont get me wrong, these perks definitely needed the buffs, but I dont think anyone is going to be foaming in the mouth with excitement over Dance With Me lasting 2 extra seconds. Part of me feels like some of the perks might need secondary effects just to help them a bit more. Also, might as well throw this in, Legion changes are also nice, I know Legion can be annoying for a lot of players but they definitely needed the buffs since they were on the weaker side of things.
TLDR; PTB was alright. Some things definitely need more work (in my opinion).