Gandor
Gandor
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There's difference between trying to curve and reving for longer (here heat mechanics could be more lenient) and having m2 always ready no mayter what. Also camping billy is a factor and if we don't want to disable m2 near hook, overheat has to stay.
Also it's hard to distinguish between curving case and just infinite prepared m2. So even though I think Billy should get some slight buff, overheat should stay IMO
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It was tried and BHVR and killers did not like it, because of stacked health.
IMO the perk is bad as anti-tunnel perk but nasty surprise when abused (getting healed by other survivor and then forcing a chase for guaranteed 3 health states).
To fix this, your idea goes good direction, but actually does not wait for other foot to drop. In my opinion being healed by someone means you are not really being tunneled - so the perk should deactivate (or at least endurance part) when healed.
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Actually me too. If I use gideon offering, I am most likely on killer - specifically Bubba doing pallet challenge (similarly saloon for breakable walls, but the game is good for that too)
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@Spectralfx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3361781#Comment_3361781
It worked well, Survivor just complain and it got reverted.
I am still waiting for them to revert Eruption but they don't revert changes for killers ever.
90% kill rate just after 6.1 was working well......... Ok I have nothing more to add to you. There's just no point
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Even Otz - killer main considers the map killer sided. The map has nothing but pallets. If killer can slow the game a little bit, survivors don't stand a chance. Because it's permanent deadzone.
The map can't have any less pallets, until it gains some windows. And the map is specifically designed to show how it could look like if no windows are in game.
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@Spectralfx said:
Top tier idea...
Nerf gen time and maybe killer will not be REQUIRED to tunnel to even stand a chance, just saying...
Yes. Sure. Just like after 6.1 patch. Stop saying things that were tested and were clearly proven to be not true
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BNP's, syringes, styptics are survivor's equivalent of killer bringing compound33+alch ring, mother-daughter ring+amulet, tombstone piece+quick stalk, etc.
If we want to remove worst nuclear options in game, let's do that consistently. I don't find it fair to remove big guns just from one side and let the other (btw killer's don't have their busted addons consume themselves upon use without possibility of protecting it with ward already - so there's already disparity) side nuke ppl without anything to combat that. That just feels too bad.
But overall - sure. The game would feel better if no side had unfairly big guns.
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Go play soloQ and then return here talking about what is and what isn't fun. You will understand very quickly
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@qwertyuiopz666 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3361582#Comment_3361582
Think they are a killer main who likes tunnelling that’s scared of DS coming back lol I really hope they do it’s needed tunnelling should have a counter and if you are getting tunnelled properly they will hit you straight away otr is a waste of a perk slot in im opinion at least ds they actually have to pick you up
OTR is even worse. It does 80s old iron will against hard tunneler and that's it. Against normal killer it promotes unhealthy gameplay where survivor just lets someone heal himself and then go taunt the killer - because now he is guaranteed to have 3 health states.
So in fact the perk does "nothing" to prevent the situation for which it was designed and still leaves "full abuse" case in game anyway. Just pure bad perk.
DS at least still works as a (really #########) anti-tunnel perk as it at least resets 1x per game bleeding status so you can use DH. At least it does something (more then 80s iron will) against hard tunneler. So considering real tunneling killer - DS is the only true self-anti-tunneling perk in the game (I don't count DH as it's 2nd chance that gets enabled by DS).
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How can all the maps be so survivor sided + survivors being such a thread and killers winning most of the games anyway? It just makes no sense
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3361443#Comment_3361443
If the Killer is camping, Do gens.
if you don't have reassurence, you are screwed. You need communications or be much better chaser then killer to stand a chance. THat's it
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@Spectralfx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359763#Comment_3359763
you quote the man that literally demonstrated the opposite as well.
He is a professionnal, DBD is what he does as a content creator, day in and day out.
While he certainly remains an inspiration, a glimmer of hope if you will for killers, he certainly isn't the "average killer" either, that guys is VERY good.
He also demonstrated a lot of "hold w" builds and how broken and easy they are to use.
I fail to see your point.
You said it's not possible. I say it's very much possible. What actually is not possible is to win 50 winstreak (something he does on most killers) in soloQ. Even best survivor mains are not able to do that (e.g. Ayrun is trying that for years now and 34 is his long-time maximum). That about sums up the balance of this game.
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@YOURFRIEND said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3361443#Comment_3361443
The game tends to have what we in the community call "loops". Suggest going to one of those.
Wow. I didn't know about that. Figures. Maybe survivors should also try to do gens and killer should try to kill them too... Such a novel things.
Now that we have obvious things out of the way. What does your thing have to do with the topic at hand? How having "so called loops" help you with "not being tunneled"? Because I see no connection. Just smirky remark
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@buffsadako said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3361104#Comment_3361104
I had mentioned previously that I would be okay with them changing her condemn play style in order to make her traditionally a better killer. It would be a healthy thing for balance and fun for other players. Killers should be able to compete traditionally without needing add-ons to carry their power. Add-ons should never be too strong and powers should never be too weak. Also I do imagine her pick rate is probably a bit higher in Asia due to how popular Ringu is in Asia.
I can agree with this
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3361283#Comment_3361283
Sure it does, its simple to get away from the Killer and you can even have perks that help you too.
How? If the killer is 5m away from hook when unhooking (because he proxied/zoned the whole time - so in fact he could get this close once unhooked) - there's no way to get away. With exception to sprint burst, non-depleted lucky break, Q&Q, indoor map, killer without too much mobility and huge dose of luck. I presume you will not say "see there's your counterplay" for this one. There are no unhook perks that make you run quicker then killer for considerable amount of time.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3361256#Comment_3361256
If Survivors don't want me to tunnel, don't unhook next to me, do generators and don't get spotted. Its easy really.
I mean I can still see your scratch marks mate. But Survivors don't think about it and they much rather use it to take hits, which I am okay with following up with a chase. It just helps me as Killer.
that doesn't work. Most killer proxycamp and zone out these days. There's no such thing as safe unhooks. Not in this meta
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@Technature said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3360829#Comment_3360829
You're conjuring up a pipe dream. Anyone can say "This should work in a way that's better for everyone" but actually coming up for ideas seems to be too difficult for most.
I mean, off the top of my head, making gens easier means removing the skill check system, which is the only thing that prevents me from dying from boredom on them.
I didn't mean it easier to do. I meant it in a way easier to actually complete. If 1 player is out and killer has kicking build + strong 3gen, it's impossible to complete the last gen if killer decides to guard it (even in SWF with perfect coordination). No matter how much time and hook states you give survivors. That's bad design. But on the other hand killer should be able to win when he has short chases just by virtue of having good chases. The game should balance itself so that both things are true - killer can have chases and survivors are never trapped in the game. That was the idea behind "easier gens" - I am absolutely not advocating removing skillchecks.
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I have to agree with most of the posts here. But... Current sadako has condemn play so she in fact is in the same boat as meyers - there's no reasonable way to talk about their buffs so long as their specific addons/plays exists (but they both should get some buffs once it is addressed).
Also if I heart correctly - sadako has also fairly high pick rate in asian servers. Keeping this in mind there still is a risk to alianate large player base in that region.
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@buffsadako said:
Sadako is widely considered one of the weakest killers in Dead by Daylight and for good reason.
Sadako's power is very much a jack of all trades, but she lacks in each department.
Her TVs have a long cool down, she has no anti-loop, she is a stealth killer with a lullaby, you can still see her demanifested, and her Condemn feature takes a specific play style in order to work consistently and is otherwise just a gimmick.
There are a lot of good, yet fair ideas that can help fix some of the glaring issues with Sadako.
• Tiers to Condemn Stacks (idea originally proposed by YouTuber Choy)
Sadako's Condemn should have different debuffs for each tier. For example, each tier of Condemn would have different effects on the survivors getting increasingly more impactful. A few examples would be Blindness, Exhausted, Exposed, and being Moriable would be the 7th tier. Essentially this would just make her Condemn feature a little more impactful and not as gimmicky and sometimes useless when playing her traditionally.
• Remove her lullaby/improve her stealth
Sadako is a stealth killer as I previously mentioned, but her stealth is not all that good. I am not sure why she has a lullaby as it is somewhat of a giveaway of your position. It makes no real sense to give a stealth killer a lullaby. You can also see her in her demanifested form flickering in and out of stealth, so you have to rely on breaking line of sight a lot or uncloaking behind walls in order to land sneaky hits. Just improving her stealth a little would go a long way.
• Lower the cool down of TVs
When Sadako projects to a TV, the TV is turned off for 100 seconds. This is extraordinarily long for no real reason other than maybe her trying to spam Condemn stacks. 100 seconds is way too long and her map mobility is essentially the main part of her power, so limiting her this much is a bit unfair. 60 seconds would be a lot better and would improve the flow of her gameplay by quite a bit without making her mobility too strong. This would also make survivors have to interact with TVs a bit more and overall improve her power.
• Allow her to walk through pallets/walls while demanifested (idea originally proposed by forum member Alex_)
This one is a shot in the dark, and I understand being skeptical about doing something like this. Sadako has no form of anti-loop. Instead of giving her the speed or lunge that Wraith has, giving her the ability to walk through pallets and/or walls could greatly make her better in chase. Of course, her demanifest speed could be tuned so this doesn't become too strong. I feel like this could make her more interesting to play as and against, without giving her a chase power too similar to Wraith.
Overall, Sadako is a very weak killer that could use some buffs. She is one of the best visually designed characters BHVR has ever made, and it is a real shame that a character as influential and iconic as Sadako is in the state she is in.
This killer is not weak by any means. You can see it in last kill stats. Also if you want to see her strength go watch onePumpWillie - a streamer that has 200 winstreak on her.
It's just that the killer requires certain addons and playstyle to be very very hard to deal with. You would need to delete this type of play before we can talk about buffs (which would alienate players that like exactly this).
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@Coffeecrashing said:
We should also get rid of Dead Hard, because perks that punish killers for having good ping, shouldn’t exist.
The perk is frustrating for survivors when the killer has bad ping, and it’s frustrating for killers when the killer has good ping, and it’s overall causing so much grief and drama that it needs to be heavily nerfed.
By the same argument, we should disable killer's ability to hit survivors at all. There are very few things more frustrating then vaulting a window, finishing animation, doing 2 steps away and then falling to the ground. And yet this is common occurance at least here in EU (because devs refused to create separate russian servers).
The point is - you can't disable things because of ping, because you would need to remove game's most fundamental principle.
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@Technature said:
People who play the game to win instead of just having fun is a community problem, not a problem with the game itself.
I disagree. People are people and you will never change them.
What you can do, is align both sides closer together. This means make "boring stuff" (camp/tunnel/genrush) not "meta". Make chases longer, gens easier to finish but at the same time longer to do. Make altruistic plays more rewarding and make camping and tunneling actually so hard, that the best strategy is something else.
Overall the idea is to make things considered by community "fun" actual meta and things considered "boring" or "unfun for both sides" possible, but not really good thing.
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@fratto said:
Can we all unanimously agree that cowshed is in a dire need of some changes?
Devs changed eyrie of crows and eruption after immense feedback, a comment from peanits seems to be suggestive towards the facts dead hard change is probably on its way within a time frame aswell.
Can we get our voices heard on cowshed?
4 gyms, shack and the cowshed all around the edges with lane pallets (not fillers) inbetween every gym that connect and link perfectly. Ontop of the potential cow tree spawn in the middle with 3 more lane pallet spawns between cowtree and the barn.
the layout speaks for itself.
Cowshed for midwitch. Actually balance all maps. Then we can talk about lerys and both RPD's.
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@Anti051 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359753#Comment_3359753
As in increase the intensity of the anti-tunnel mechanics so much that the killer physically can't do it until EGC. A restriction like this is fine if and only if there actually is a respectable and reliable amount of time to conduct chases during the trial before gens hit 100%.
Tunneling, camping and hard slugging alike are events that ultimately happen because the generators can be done fast. Over time, players learn that if the killer does not create some kind of situation to jam up the gen progress, they will lose.
One good path forward is to take steps to insure that matches cannot end cartoonishly fast so there actually is time to "just be good." Overlay this with very strict anti-tunnel/camp/slug mechanics and further nerfs to gen-slow...Now the only thing for a killer to do is get good at earning hooks and conducting themselves in a more "healthy" manner.
I hope that's a better job at painting that picture
That's not what I said. I said nerf it so, that it's not the most optimal strategy to play the game. Right now the best strategy to win the game ASAP is to chase a little all survivors (or at least watch them a little), try to figure out weakest link and tunnel that one out ASAP - once he is hooked, proxy camp him and zone other survivors out of the hook and nearby gens. Once you do this, repeat with the remaining 3 survivors. After this, if there are 2+ gens left, you just won. Otherwise try to catch any remaining survivor in a game.
Notice I never mentioned specific killer, specific situation, specific map, specific killer/survivor build, or any other conditions. This is killer's most optimal strategy no matter what (and no matter how many gens are remaining). It's boring, so you will not see it EVERY game. But you will see it much more often then not in higher elo at least.
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Sorry. I read that wrong. I ignored the first word. So again:
Because he would not hear him (even though he would see he's injured). As killer would be occupied - he can't just go and look at the gen (because he's fighting survivors for 3gen) - so it usually means he relies on the fact if the gen is regressing (which can be tapped quickly) and on sounds (generator repairing sound and moans of pain). If there was perk that muffled both sounds, then that one would be very good in this niche case (that happens quite often).
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3360004#Comment_3360004
What would make him think you're on a different gen with our hypothetical perk change?
yes
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359994#Comment_3359994
That's all good and dandy and valid points but none of that responds to my point being made.
For situation B whether you are personally silenced or just the gen is silenced is irrelevant since the killer can see the pistons and know you're there either way.
My point is that whether you are personally silenced is irrelevant for point B.
No it doesn't. You are still thinking of case A where you want to hide your presence completely. I am talking about situation where killer knows survivors are somewhere around him (like anywhere in 40m radius), but such killer can think you are in different gen right now (wasting a few seconds which can be crucial if you are fighting for 3gen).
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359975#Comment_3359975
Well gens near chase they can see the pistons moving so they know you're on it. This would mean the injured silence doesn't matter.
yes it does. But there are 2 types of stealth.
a, Hiding to be never seen being in the other corner of the map as killer (for this playstyle, muffling all generator sounds makes sense).
b, Being close to killer and doing all the objectives that are possible (be it flashlight saves, sabotages, breaking risky 3gens, etc). For this type of stealth fully muffling generator is just about as bad as the design of skull merchant. Killer will notice, that some sound is suddenly missing - so muffling survivor makes perfect sense, but muffling generator is counterproductive.
I would like B-type perks. Your buff goes that direction - that's why I would consider such a perk good (even if not meta).
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359956#Comment_3359956
I'm curious how that makes it a good perk for you now?
I do think it makes it much better, but only in the scenarios that I already thought made it a good perk previously that you didn't think were situations in the first place. IE drive by listening to gens. If those situations realistically didn't exist in most cases, as you made the point for earlier, then this injured change would be meaningless. I guess I'm saying that if you think this change would make it good then it would contradict your previous statement.
It does not. I agree that silencing gens gives some value. But silencing grunts of pain give more value - because you can be injured doing gen near chase (situations like these do happen - especially around 3gen scenario) with lessening the risk of being caught. That is one big opportunity. That's why I said that this one would change everything.
Now that I think about it - it would be more value if it does not silence gen, but just yourself
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359930#Comment_3359930
So I'm not misinterpreting what you're saying:
You're saying to intentionally swing at the air when you could have hit them and "miss" so that the survivor thinks your bad and that will allow you to land the next one because they aren't expecting it or they will use it by accident when you missed on purpose?
Is that what you're saying is the counter play?
You are misinterpreting.
1x you lounge at them from distance deliberately missing. For now this will always surprise at least 1st survivor and he will just use DH shortening his speed (so he is in fact guaranteed to have less value from DH then any other perk). You can do that even 2nd time, but probably not 3rd time (where he will expect you to miss on purpose). Of course if you are in the open or at window with option to wait it out for exactly 0.5s, then you have 0 reason to swing at the air.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359785#Comment_3359785
"You see gen from higher distance then you actually hear it."
Wrong. Lots of the time you are hearing it long before seeing it.
"Also sound will never tell you how far along the gen is"
That's literally just factually not true. You can quite literally tell how far along it is by sound...
You're massively underestimating how often you hear a gen before seeing it and how often killers turn based on that. You can hear exactly how far along a gen is and the sound of if it's currently being worked on.
If we really want to buff it more we can even make it silent the survivor while working on it as well, so it will be effective while injured now as well basically.
Now if you silence also survivor, I would consider it a good perk. That would change everything
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359838#Comment_3359838
Being near a pallet is already a highly favorable scenario for survivors. Then Dead Hard comes along and complicates things even more for the Killer. Or if the Survivor is caught in the open, Dead Hard buys them an extra 3-5 seconds at minimum, maybe even gets them to the next pallet.
Also, Scott's scenario assumes that the Survivor ASSUMES you're going to lunge before you actually do it. If Survivors don't make that assumption and only DH on reaction instead, there's still nothing you can do.
Even if a Survivor falls for a fake lunge every single time, the perk still extended the chase considerably. Missing a lunge is costly. And I'd gladly play a hundred games against Sprint Burst if it meant I'd never have to worry about Dead Hard again.
again. missing hit prolongs the chase less then other exhaustion perks. Will you move the goal post to sprint/lithe/balanced/overcome/... once DH is nerfed?
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359772#Comment_3359772
Why did you even post this video? The literal second sentence of it was "This is by no means 100%", the key part of the video's strategy is to NOT LUNGE, and it concluded by saying the Survivor can simply drop the pallet and get the stun anyway if they know you're not going to lunge.
So, never actually use your lunge to hit the survivors. Just miss on purpose so they get another loop or make it to the next tile. And this disproves my point how?
1, you said there's nothing that can be done. I just showed you there's something. Does it favor survivors? Sure it does. Does being in open favor killers? That's true as well.
The fact that it's not 100% is good. It gives opportunities for both sides. Asking for 100% counter is like asking for it being physically impossible to hook same survivor twice if nobody else was hooked in the meantime - unrealistic and bad for game.
About the lounge - it means you can mindgame it even more - you don't need (and shouldn't) miss on purpose all the time. And all exhaustions (maybe except headon) are designed to prolong chases. So you ask what's the alternative? That survivor runs off with sprint burst? Will you complain about sprint after DH then?
@albertoplus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3359505#Comment_3359505
Eruption can be countered by waiting it out. Stop repairing until the person that is being chased is downed, the gen pops and you can keep repairing it. Hell with the new HUD you can even know when the non-obsession is being chased.
But let's be honest, no one is going to do that because it is "not fun" to do nothing until eruption pops, and that's actually pretty understandable.
And the exact same thing can be said about DH.
There's no information for actually knowing when to dodge it (but being SWF). With DH you get the info and can mindgame. That's totally different. Not even comparable
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@Emeal said:
Maybe we should wait and see how Skull merchants actually performs and see if any distinct strategies develop?
IDC how strong she'll be. Point in knight. They buffed him until he has good winrate. But he's just no fun. Same w skull merchant. You can adjust numbers so she performs ok. But that does not change that she will always be quite boring to play as/against.
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At least something more interesting. Every 10s ability to turn off all sounds (not TR) and red stain for 2s. Might make her interesting in chases and mind games
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The only things I am looking forward to are new shelter woods and eruption nerf. Everything else is quite meh. As killer there's literally nothing I am looking forward to.
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@Blueberry said:
Remove all its current nonsense.
Just make it flat working on gens is silent, period, regardless of how many survivors are on it. This allows stealth working on gens as most killers do a drive by and listen for its progress without actually directly looking at it. This would be low key very strong.
You see gen from higher distance then you actually hear it. Your version of perk would be absolutely useless. Also sound will never tell you how far along the gen is (if 1 piston is barely moving, there's very good chance survivor just left and will never come back. If 4 pistons are moving all of them about same speed, The survivor is 99% still there). No noise would be helpful in very special and very rare circumstances (basically only if the gen is behind some obstacle and hard to get to - meaning it's on different floor like in RPD. midwitch, the game, etc).
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@Monlyth said:
It's bad enough that Dead Hard punishes the Killer for hitting the Survivor, it's bad enough that it's essentially impossible to avoid triggering it with many Killer powers, it's bad enough that it can be used to force no-win situations at pallets, but what Dead Hard also does is remove full-length lunges as an option.
If you lunge from the maximum distance, it comes out slowly enough that Survivors can simply Dead Hard on reaction. Whether you're out in the open or just far enough from a pallet or window that a lunge can catch you, Dead Hard has you covered if the Killer goes for it.
A single Survivor perk makes one of the core gameplay options available to every Killer almost completely useless.
For pallets argument:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_4SCwg74PY&t=2sFor powers - it's true for ranged killers. But there's no reaction to most killers. As DH got to 0.5s - you can now wait it out even with nurse. Most of the killers can avoid it now (but some can't).
For full lounge - it's the other way around. I find it quite a reliable way how to bait out DH. Just miss on purpose with full distance lounge if the survivor is hard to force to DH in other ways. Remember that DH is an exhaustion perk and 1.5s slowdown is a lot less in wasted time compared to sprints...
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I see the same as @BlueHorkew . The incentives are on survivor most of the day. That's true at least here in EU. And it's not just killers that got their perks destroyed. How often do you see e.g. iron will these days? One of the most favorite survivor perk suddenly disappeared.
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@Spectralfx said:
I mean,
The speed at which survivors can complete gens is what fuel the tunneling.
A 4vs1 is un-winnable in all stages of the game for killer.
3vs1 is possible... probably only 1 gen left by then... so probably not.
2vs1? The last one will most likely get hatch.
It's unrealistic to expect killers to commit to 8 hooks+ strats in an economy where by first hook (not death, just hook) 3 gen pops instantly.
This is absolutely not true. Go watch Otzdarva this week as he himself made challenge to not tunnel for limited time. He can win most of the games anyway (he still does not even use very good builds - just good and meh builds).
Also as we saw in patch 6.1 - give killers an option to win without tunneling and killers will tunnel even more for very easy wins. To reduce tunneling, you need to make it NOT the easiest thing to do - something you don't even have to think about doing to ensure wins most of the time. You need to make it actually risky to decide to do this. Currently there are 0 reasons to NOT tunnel if all you care about are easy wins. Unhooked person is always the most vulnerable and easiest target + it will give you highest time benefit. Once DS got nerfed - there are 0 incentives to swap target if all you care about is win.
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@Anti051 said:
Best way to address tunneling is make it so it isn't necessary. You do that by making it so that gens can't be completed faster than greased lightning. After that you implement more strict base kit anti-tunnel mechanics.
I always see people talking about punishing the symptom instead of treating the cause.
This was tried in patch 6.1. Your theory was proven to be absolutely wrong. The only way how to deter tunneling is to not making it most rewarding, easiest and consistent thing to do in the game with least risks (aka no risk considering current state of DS) associated with it. That's it.
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@RaSavage42 said:
OR... they could increase base Gen regression
Some Killers Tunnel cause they don't have regression to match progression... and by taking a Survivor out as soon as possible it slows down the match
Matching regression w progression is the reason survivor genrush-at-max meta was born. It makes 0 sense and 0 fun to play 1hr match w killer, because killer is able to match survivor's progression and stall the game indefinitely.
But I said so in previous threads. Base killer's regression is too weak. Buff it and at the same time nerf regression perks (so that no-regression builds would be quite stronger and at the same time 2-4 regression-builds would become weaker). This would actually make chase perks more meaningful.
@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3358989#Comment_3358989
Again is like you are not listening at all, if Nurse downs you in 6 seconds the MMR is off. if you expect perks to help you about an off-mmr nurse that thats not intended and there is no way bHVR should buff perks to save you from an off-mmr nurse. There is no way that would be fair to actual balanced mmr.
But they will help you vs a fair mmr matchup. I have used them myself MANY times.
Perks are not designed to save you against people who have honed their skills with a Killer too much.
No. You misunderstood. I was talking in a sense that I don't care who you are. Even if you are Ayrun/Sweh/whoever... Current DS against decent nurse will most often extend your chase by 6s (if not paired with DH/OTR which again makes DS just 1-time reset bleeding perk). The perk is IMO total trash. It helps only against weaker killers
@jinx3d said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3358277#Comment_3358277
one/two stacks of stbfl, weaker brutal strength, and thana was never basekit lmao. bt is way stronger than all 3 of those combined
Me and raised kill stats highly disagree with you.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3358731#Comment_3358731
If the Killer is camping do gens, again in turn if the Survivors do Gens then the Killer will not leave with many points defeating the purpose of camping.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3358731#Comment_3358731
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3358733#Comment_3358733
If you are not unskilled, you can use We'll Make It, Guardian, Renewal, Borrowed Time, Decisive Strike and Off The Record.
All of those perks will help you with tunneling.
For Camping, there are Reassurance and not getting Caught.
if you go down in 6 seconds to a Nurse then you should not be matched with that Nurse mate.
Any decent nurse will down you again in 6s every single time with current DS. You can be anywhere. You just make no distance to hide behind something to actually juke her. Blight & spirit is in similiar position if slightly worse (yes - god pallet will help you in this case - but why would you die in that spot if you were next to god pallet anyway?).
Anyway - none of the mentioned perks will even help you if killer proxy camps into immediate tunnel. Not a single one of those.
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@FFirebrandd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3358277#Comment_3358277
Firstly, I'm talking about this proposal so changes in 6.1 are irrelevant to this discussion.
Secondly, even if they were... killers never had base kit Thana. They got 50% of Brutal and 25% of STBFL. Survivors also got the post unhook movespeed bonus from Guardian/Babysitter base kit.
1, I don't think it's irrelevant. It's recent change and it fully applies
2, 10s longer solving of gen?
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I don't think it will be even a decent perk. Like reason repressed alliance is good is because things like wiretap exists + you can dodge things like pain resonance. Once we are talking about regression, these things don't apply. I think some ppl will try to use it once or twice for hiding, but then swap it for repressed, or take totally different perk altogether. Even if the regression went to 25% of normal (so 0,0625c/s)
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@FFirebrandd said:
By my count, you've added 4 perks as base kit for Survivors but only one for Killer. So why not keep going and make 3 more killer Perks base kit that rewards not camping and tunneling?
Base kit BBQ and Chili
Base kit old Thanatophobia
Base kit old Pop Goes the Weasel
STBFL, brutal strength and thana were basekit from 6.1 on killers. And I see only BT on survivor. What do you mean?
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@Akumakaji said:
People sometimes have some truly bizarre ideas, what off-meta means. I talked not one iota about playing funny meme builds and expecting to win high or even stomp and then came crawling back to the forums, crying my heart out, quite the contrary, I can take quote a beating and come back for more. But the last couple of weeks just have drained my out and left me exhausted, so to speak. And judging by the resonance I got, it's not a singular opinion or feeling.
Just to circle back to my off-meta comment, in my own pov, please correct me if I am wrong, but anything that isn't strictly meta should be thus off-meta, right? So everyone knows that DH is the best exhaustion perk, with SB a somewhat second place, so even Lithe, an all around good perk, is off-meta, but playing with Lithe doesn't mean that you are memeing or throwing the game or that you should expect to get stomped.
There is a difference between playing Quick and Quiet/Head On and playing Red Herring/Autodidact, both are off-meta, but one of this pair is somewhat viable, while the other is crap. So I wasn't memeing or throwing games, I just wasn't bringing the absolute ruthless best meta perks.
Meta is meta for a reasons, I don't think that you should be forced to play them or "deserve to get stomped you entitled swine!!!1" (exaggeration by me). Being a good player and having good gaming sense, you should at least be able to have a fighting chance and pose a threat to your opponents, not getting run over with impunity, because you had the audacity to diverge from the meta a lil bit.
I can agree with that (not your own personal exaggeration who - not my intention in any way :D ). In my eyes off-meta was meme, because meta was not just best thing, but everything that is used "a lot" (so in this case all of DH, sprint, lithe and even BL or OC, but not smash hit). So there goes the misunderstanding.
Still - in my personal experience - which quite obviously differs from yours, killer is still easier to win/not loose then survivor.
And for survivor there's always that possibility of doing perfectly whole match (having 0 hooks for 5 gens) and then still getting 4K'd by one good killer play and one big survivor mistake. Meaning you have to be on your toes all the time while killer "can't really throw" that much (sure he can commit to bad chase costing him the game, but he needs to consistently do bad in said chase - it's never just 1 mistake).
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You mean like numeric value? Survivors didn't get precise info like this. And AFAIK killers already see hook auras and gen auras. So they do have same level of information in this case as survivors got via HUD. So what do you mean @Nos37 ?
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3358205#Comment_3358205
Survivors have multiple perks to deal with tunneling and perks to deal with camping and they can do gens and get out.
But they rather Dead Hard, and twerk, its their funeral.
1, DH is also anti-tunneling perk.
2, there are no GOOD perks against tunneling now. DS got nerfed. It basically works now only as 1x 6s chase extender and bleeding-status remover (so in combination with DS, now it's much riskier version of old DS, but takes 2 perk slots). OTR helps only against killers that don't really tunnel (making it especially bad, because it disproportionally punishes killers that don't tunnel by survivor getting healed and then having 3 guaranteed health states for about a minute). Against real tunnelers it's basically just old Iron will for 80s and that's it (because you will get hit within first 10s of your BT anyway).
So again. Current design with OTR and nerfed DS is just pure bad. Most of killers do tunnel but still survivors don't bring anti-tunneling perks that much, because they plain suck at their job. If they were good at their job, they would be used a lot (and killers would complain again that most of lobby have THAT anti-tunneling perk on most of survivors). Tunneling is just too good strategy and there are too few good counters against it in the game as is. Meaning it will remain to be the problem and it will be even worse so long as there are fewer ways to combat the strategy.
We would need just 1 good anti-tunneling perk and the problem would be fixed to quite some degree (with exception to said killer complains about how many people bring the perk) - this was already done with reassurance to combat hard/face camping. The opposite was done to combat tunneling (and yes basekit BT helps, the chase didn't last less then 1s if somebody didn't bring BT and killer was tunneling, but it did nothing to prolong the chase above 30s (disregarding survivor being much better looper then killer) - which was killer's win every single time - it's impossible to do gens quickly enough for other survivors to power the gate before last survivor gets "tunneled out" like this). So the only way survivors can win is if single survivor can loose killer or loop him for 2+ gens every time - which means killers will say maps are OP and it's too easy to loop killers (something mentioned in these threads all the time).
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3358162#Comment_3358162
I'm glad we understand each other, YES Survivors not doing not smart actions is quite idealistic, but that's not the Killers problem.
Don't nerf Killers because survivors are being not smart. Its not my problem.
Fix the MMR instead so the bad survivors can end up in Low MMR, where the unwise survivors belong instead.
My point was it doesn't matter if survivors make this mistake or not (and in my experience survivors don't do that - at least not often). Killers will capitalize on it anyway if they want to play optimal game. Because the game design just dictates that most optimal strategy is to zone/proxy camp and then hard-core tunnel. So if killer plays optimally (aka boring), then all 6 of your points are totally meaningless. And again - I don't blame killers for this - they just play optimally. This is something devs should actually fix.
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@Technature said:
The other boon perks are a joke too, but apparently because one very specific perk was mentioned I'm in the wrong.
What else is new.
I would argue the other 2 are just niche. If the situation for them arises, they are very good. It's just rare that they are usable (and that's why nobody uses them - because most games you will not have any value from the 2 of them).