ForTheEntity
ForTheEntity
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It's because it feels cheap.
If it happens once in a 2v8 match it's whatever. Twice, ooooookay, it's frustrating but I can get over it. But when both killers make a point to double-team tunnel my butt out of the match and it happens 2 matches in a row… I had to bite my tongue to not leave something acidic in the chat box. That happened to me yesterday.
I logged off and played DRG. Rock & stone!
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The 6.1.0 patch actually was a major meta shake up because they nuked the meta at the time on both sides. Not just perks but with basekit changes to the game we've all been enjoying for 4 years on now. Looking at the list of changes they made in 6.1.0 is insane now. What a game changer it was.
10.2.0 is just a bunch of tweaks to mostly mid-range perks and the meta is practically untouched. The most used meta survivor perk, Lithe, got indirectly buffed now that Windows of Opportunity and Spine Chill both will buff vault speed.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117988#Comment_4117988
In that day we were forced to look for survivors because we didn't have the tools to easily find them. It was a time before close range aura reading or killer instinct that lead to downs.
Yeah, that's the exact problem.
Intel got powercrept to hell and back and now everyone's acting like the game's non-functional without killers being given permanent, direct access to survivors' exact locations 24/7.
It wouldn't kill you to look. It didn't kill them, either.
You are remembering those days with rose-colored glasses. Returning to hook was just as prevalent back then as it is now.
Looking for a stealth survivor with no hooks and no clue to help find them?
@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117988#Comment_4117988
This person wants 15-20% haste instead. That's what I'm replying to.
My bad. I skimmed this thread too quickly as I often do. 5% is fine and 15-20% is absurd.
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@DodoSwarm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/472406/pharmacy-should-have-3-charges
there's definitely a ton of counterplay for items and chests in general… and regardless… if a survivor is running to a chest location to self heal they're not doing their primary objective.
A high percentage of Killers run Nurses Calling anyway (NiteLite shows around a 12% pick rate) and other kinds of aura reading are at an alltime high, not to mention Sloppy Butcher is still decently popular.
If this perk in its new state becomes popular why not just run Franklins + Weave Attunement. most people who run it go to the basement for a guaranteed chest anyway, so when you see them drop an item to rummage another one just go get a free down in the basement…Medkits are mobile, which counters a lot of your examples of counterplay. The Pharmacy user can easily place medkits in central or at least easily seen locations for their teammates. A survivor picks up the medkit and runs to a safe area preferrably where there are no gens or at least non-progressed gens and all of a sudden they are out of range of A Nurse's Calling and the radii of items giving Weave Attunement auras. Sloppy Butcher just means it takes longer to do the heal but that doesn't matter as much when only one survivor is doing the heal.
I think you are underestimating how much time having tons of medkits can actually save the team, that's why Boon: Circle of Healing allowing self healing was removed because injured survivors could heal themselves while the other survivors didn't have to waste time healing a teammate and could quickly get back on/continue working on generators.
Also, being able to unlock/rummage 125% faster is incredible. The Pharmacy user can get the medkit and the chest rummaged in the same amount of time as a normal chest opening. It gets worse with a Key. Getting lucky and finding one Commodious Toolbox would also make up for a lot of the time spent traveling to and interacting with chests.
@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/472406/pharmacy-should-have-3-charges
I'm sorry but, you're complaining about this when self care + Botany exists.
This is just a nice way for people to run item builds for once.Self-Care + Botany is crap compared to this. That takes up 2 perk slots to do what Pharmacy will be doing with one and chest spawn locations are predictable and easy to find. Not to mention this'll be a great use for all the keys clogging up everyone's inventories. Even if you only plan on only opening one chest that's a great use for a key and if the match goes south as they often do they're will be a key available to open the hatch.
Even if they do my suggested adjustment I am going to be running Pharmacy, bringing a Key and using an 8th Year Anniversary offering which makes another chest spawn every game. It's going to be awesome.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117475#Comment_4117475
Back in my day, killers used to actually look for survivors…
In that day we were forced to look for survivors because we didn't have the tools to easily find them. It was a time before close range aura reading or killer instinct that lead to downs.
@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117836#Comment_4117836
At this point there is the question what playstyle Survivors should (or are allowed) to do. Stealth is obviously not wanted, considering they obliterated Distortion (mainly due to outcry) and nerf Self Preservation. Looping is also iffy, considering that structures get weaker and weaker over time and Killers just get stronger, with the classical looping Killer not really being played anymore (I mean, you barely hear Judgments Chase music for example since you get sniped while not even being in chase with her). But buffed Knockout makes playing weak Pallets impossible, since you either get hit or leave the Loop and get hit.
Doing Gens is also apparently not really wanted.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117854#Comment_4117854
True, but Killers also had to use some form of gamesense. Or were looking around Gens. Nowadays you just slap on Aura Read and know where to go, since outside of Lockers, there is not much against Aura Read. Plus most Killers have some form of Killer Instinct, which is uncounterable.
When one plays killer what's more fun searching for hiding survivors or chasing survivors? I know I'd rather take the nastiest bully squad rather than a pack of coward Claudettes because with bullies at least the game is engaging. For this reason I can see why BHVR has developed a policy against longer term stealth plays.
But there is still room for shorter term stealth plays such as with Bite the Bullet or Quick & Quiet + Head On, spots where you can make the killer lose a chase or trick them into a stun. This is fun and engaging and should be encouraged.
But having one or more teammate(s) hide for a lot of the match and never get hooked while the rest of the team assumes all the risk and damage is something that should be discouraged. If people want to play Hide & Seek go play Prop Hunt or something, DbD is a chase game.
@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117901#Comment_4117901
So free, uncounterable information and a massive speed boost that will still be used by A and S tier killers? Thats an awful lot of free value just for existing.
Uncounterable but very imperfect information and 5% haste while never in a chase for the cost of a whole perk slot? Seems like a fair trade to me. At least a perk slot occupied by Whispers is a perk slot not occupied by an aura or slowdown perk.
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@Mandy said:
We don't give much information on how this impacts MMR as we don't want MMR to be the focus here. The player stats also will likely take some time to update as they're going through their own UI related things, given the way things are represented in the game and the Stats page doesn't take from in-game data but from the game's UI.
I believe the change in wording to Surrender definitely indicates that this is losing a match overall.
Sigh.
I just want to know that the system works or at least is intended to work like it is supposed to, i.e. if a survivor surrenders they take an L on their MMR and if the killer chooses End Trial their MMR increases if it hasn't already. Players should know that whether or not they stay in the match it doesn't make a difference to their MMR because if players think they have a chance to manipulate their MMR they will try to do so.
I am beyond exasperated with this ambiguous approach BHVR has to communicating with players.
For example why not just tell killers on the post game screen that they won in identical fashion if they get a 3K or a 4K? That simple UI change alone would lead to a reduction in slugging for the 4K, a scenario I have yet to hear anyone speak positively about.
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They're annoying, but they don't need to be hard nerfed. The first change I'd like to see is them being made more susceptible to flash bangs as it's far to easy to waste a flash bang on a zombie and not get a blind because it flicks briefly to another target or does something buggy. Just giving them a wider flash bang-only blind angle would be enough. I also think they should add a Head On class that could kill zombies.
I've had it happen where I've been able to keep 3 zombies busy just chasing me which is a great help to my team. After a while the killer(s) usually recognize this is happening and one or both of them go out of their way to chase me and/or kill 1-2 of the zombies. I think this is kind of fun.
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I don't agree with it, but I can see them not wanting Borrowed Time to extend endurance and elusive. But this rework is dog water. It's like they couldn't come up with any sort of decent ideas for a rework or are content for this perk to stay unused in the bloated sea of survivor perks that only keeps growing.
With this rework I can only see this perk being paired with Dead Hard.
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I feel like this is all a set up for an upcoming pallet-focused licensed survivor perk (so we have to buy a character or wait a year for it to appear in the Shrine) that is going to power creep Five Moves Ahead and possibly Any Means Necessary. Will Terrifier come with a survivor? Five Moves Ahead is getting a pretty harsh nerf with nothing to compensate for it, it's worse than pre-5.3.0 Windows of Opportunity now. Getting to move 50% earlier is good for what, 2-4 meters distance? Has anyone measured that?
Maybe BHVR will give Five Moves Ahead something when it goes live but I know better than to get my hopes up. SoloQs need a good pallet information perk because how are we supposed to know if Meg dropped all the pallets in that third of the map on her first chase?
Windows of Opportunity was long overdue for a nerf. It was practically 2 perks in one, was always on, has been meta since 5.3.0 and >20% usage rate for 4 years. And since it got 10% vault speed bonus that will work for medium & fast vaults while healthy or injured, it is going to stay in the meta. I'm sure many killers are going to love chasing survivors who'll be vaulting 25% faster when healthy (WoO+Finesse) and 14% faster when injured (WoO+Resilience).
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I can understand the Self-Preservation nerf. Most survivors probably used a strategy of pre-running from their generator and vanishing like a fart in the wind resulting in killers just kicking the gen and returning to hook. As killer it's better to return to the hook than wasting several seconds checking behind every tree and rock while the unhook happens for free.
With SP now lasting half as long it doesn't completely counter Nowhere to Hide and perhaps a clue is left for the killer to follow in the distance. And it does allow for some skill expression from the survivor because they can run until the elusive runs out and then walk and be rewarded for their stealth, especially if they also have a pebble to throw. It's just not free anymore.
But they may have over-nerfed it. We'll see.
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I read all of the perk changes in patch notes and I like almost all of the changes. A lot of weaker perks have been buffed, perk tiers don't matter as much now and some things like Insidious might be more fun now. But aside from Thrill getting reworked, WoO & 5MA getting nerfed and Pharmacy becoming THE item perk, the meta hasn't shaken up much.
I think Pharmacy should have 3 tokens though, so it can just generate 3 rare medkits and 3 rummages and that's it, but still retain the faster & quieter unlock rummages after the tokens are gone. Pharmacy combined with coins is a recipe for unlimited medkits and way too many items.
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I hope there are no more quests involving them as they are terrible when people are just trying to complete their quest. They need to either be used well or ignored. They are a massive negative for the survivor side when people are hiding in corners doing them solo and/or when people are wasting time hiding them.
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Mostly my pet peeve now is playing DbD and not having fun, which is most of the time. Other players can do things that make it worse, but it really doesn't matter when the sparks of fun are already so few and far between for me now.
As for Fog Vials, I think they're almost useless in chase. They have a very low success rate. But you get 150 Survival points for using one, so whenever I see a Fog Vial, usually in a chest, I'll immediately use it and put in back just to get those bloodpoints. I can definitely understand people misusing Fog Vials as I rarely try to use them "properly."
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116653#Comment_4116653
Nice try. You just hate Nurse and appear unable to apply logic in a discussion about her.No one forces you to engage with people on the forum if you don't think its worth your time, but if you're going to respond to someone it should actually include some type of response and not just avoid what they typed.
He's guilty of replying to several long posts of mine and others with one or two liners that add nothing to the discussion so I am just giving him some of his own medicine.
I'm not sorry if I offended your delicate "neighborhood watch" sensibilities in doing so. At least the rest of my post that you're whining about added something to the discussion.
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@Arcturus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116636#Comment_4116636
Have you ever watched comp DBD? Obviously pubs aren't going to play out the same way as a comp match, but I think the way that comp matches are played against Nurse is a testament to how deadly she is to even the most skilled survivors.
The strategy they use against Nurse is to have designated "death spots" that they would run to and die at to take the Nurse away from gens being done on the opposite side of the map. Often times they don't even bother trying to run her and just go there immediately, instead of "last for 30 more seconds" or something it's literally just "well if you're dead already then at least do it in a good spot." Most chases, even against these extremely skilled players, still are very quick. The strategy works a bit better on bigger maps, but in general the survivors are completely expected to lose.
There is a reason why, unless you have seen a tier list different from all the ones I've seen, that every tier list without exception has had Nurse as number 1 since 2016. A decent Nurse is already A tier, a master Nurse is uncounterable. This is why in my original post I mentioned that I do not think Blindness when she is Blinking would be enough, as good Nurses don't even need aura in the first place and often don't run it.
It's pretty well established that DbD cannot be balanced around comp where you have players who are in the top 0.01% of the skill bracket and there are Nurse's who can blink with pixel-perfect accuracy. How many Nurses do you encounter that are that good in public matches?
Tier lists are generally based on potential. In the right hands the Nurse has the potential to be S-tier. But in most players' hands who miss a few blinks they quickly find gens getting done and gates getting opened and that's why she has a kill rate <50%. That's why BHVR keeps leaving her where she is despite continuous whining from the community and her continued placement at the top of tier lists. Tier lists are opinions, unlike the stats.
@esarraf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116636#Comment_4116636
Lol, okay you want to talk ######### then we can. Nurse straight up ignores any and all mechanics survivors have that no other killer can besides maybe Judgement. Playing Nurse is extremely easy to do so and saying 'ooh what if you stop playing the auto win killer and get rusty' is not an argument it's just nonsense you made up to try and defend a broken killer. Nurse fundamentally does not work and ruins the game for everyone else by existing. You want to know why most killer perks are bland and boring as hell? It's because Nurse. When one specific killers existence is so bad that the devs have gone on record saying they can't allow perks like Awakened Awareness to exist because nurse there's no defending her. Feel free to call me a troll if that's all you can come up with, I understand if you are having such extreme difficulties in comprehending why nurse is bad for the game then I don't think you'll come up with any actually good insults.
Nice try. You just hate Nurse and appear unable to apply logic in a discussion about her.
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@Arcturus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116561#Comment_4116561
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116584#Comment_4116584
Whether or not @esarraf has played Nurse or not that is a pretty accurate description of Nurse. I have about 6 hours on her according to my stats page and it's incredibly easy to win on her. Half my hours on her I was trolling with half my build being Bamboozle and Superior Anatomy yet I was still able to win most my games.
The reason Nurse's kill rates are so low is because she is completely free and unlocked to all players. Brand new players that have no idea how to play the game will try to play her and have no clue what they're doing. With Trapper or Wraith they can at least just walk forward and swing, but Nurse is slower than survivors so she quite literally is required to Blink. Nurse is not a killer you can pick up in a single game and already be pretty good at, but it only takes a couple hours of playing her to get decent with her power, and it's strong enough that decent is all you really need. A lot of players probably never go past the first few matches of playing her. Nightlight and the official kill rates take into account the babies too, and if they're all getting 0-1 kills that drags it down quite a bit.
@esarraf is always a troll when it comes to talking about Nurse. They can't actually come up with a good argument as to why the Nurse is actually a mad dog killer who is problematic in DbD. So they come up with some ridiculous analogy in a one ore two liner, without actually adding to the discussion. I have tried to have this discussion with them in another thread and this was their modus operandi with every single post.
I still think the Nurse is balanced. I have more fun playing against Nurse than as Nurse.
Playing Nurse is not an automatic win. If she was, more people would be playing her and she's have a better kill rate. If she doesn't land her blinks and get those hits, the fatigue is really punishing. She has the worst map traversal in the game thanks to her fatigue and her movement speed. And Entity help her if she gets a survivor as good as me on Lery's.
The Nurse has a high skill floor but once a player gets decent with Nurse she doesn't become an unstoppable powerhouse as people like @esarraf would have us believe.
And another thing with Nurse is it is incredibly easy to get rusty with her. Yeah, if you're a Nurse main and play her nearly everyday you'll do quite well. But if you spread your playtime across multiple killers and/or don't play Nurse for a week, it's quite easy to eat dirt for a couple matches until you get your mojo back.
It doesn't surprise me that others in this thread are calling for her movement speed to increase to balance her, which I think would be a massive buff no matter how much more punishing her fatigue would be.
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@esarraf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4116561#Comment_4116561
Hey real quick, let's say they released a survivor perk that was a little hard to use but after a few hours anyone can realistically use it and when you do you automatically win the game. Because that's what you are saying classifies as balanced right now.
Oh go away troll. You have never even played Nurse.
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Maybe I'm just downvote-farming but I am going to say it:
The Nurse is balanced.
Over the last 3 years every time I've looked at her kill rate on Night Light and whenever I've seen an official kill rate for her, it's been below average.
I love playing against Nurses because I know how to run them and usually they're not that good.
The only change I'd like to see is if she tries to blink through a pallet that is dropping it would intercept her, stun her and put her into fatigue. That way she wouldn't be able to completely ignore pallets the way she does now but she could still outplay them by waiting for the pallet drop animation to finish, but survivors could dumb-tech or do something since she couldn't hit them while the survivor is stuck in the pallet pulldown animation. I just think it would be more fun than what we have now.
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This rift has been particularly stingy with rift fragments. I think this 2v8 is the only event we got this rift that gives rift fragments. IIRC last month's even gave us any. BHVR might have considered giving us no frags for 2v8 so perhaps we are "lucky" that they reduced them from 75 to 50 and not to 0. Next rift hopefully we get frags from Haunted by Daylight.
@LordGlint said:
Thats one reason I tend to wait on spending money on the rift. I get it tiered up, then when im at the end.. I "buy" it and immediately get rewarded the cells back. If something comes up and I end up not finishing the rift, then im not out anything.
This is my approach as well. Usually we have to get to level 69 but this rift it's only 67. Gratz on getting yours there.
I am not even sure if I'll get there this rift. I wouldn't even worry about it if I didn't actually like some of the black and gold cosmetics like Mikaela's dress and Kate's top. It would be the first rift ever that I haven't got to level 70 on. I am currently in the 40s.
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I don't think the devs are intentionally trying to ruin anything. They just can't help it.
Their checklist includes:
✅Does it make DbD more of a grind?
and not:
❌ Does it make DbD more fun?
And it's a crying shame.This salt mechanic is just more of the same.
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Your ChatGPT-generated suggestion has already been soundly rejected. Stop making threads about it.
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The Endurance Test:If survivors finish gens early, their reward is that their objective is done. The rest of the match becomes a pure endurance test—looping, hiding, and outsmarting the killer until time runs out.We already have a very similar scenario that already plays out every day that this would be very similar to. The 2v1 scenario when there are multiple generators left. Survivors often completely forgo doing the generators and go into full hide mode in the hopes that they can out-endure the other survivor for a chance at hatch. And sometimes it has to continue because the killer slugs for the 4K and then the last survivor standing has to outlast a 4 minute bleedout timer to have a chance to survive.
I wouldn't enjoy this mechanic from either side.
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Because someone at BHVR who checks certain boxes but only knows how to make minor lobby UI changes needs to justify their continuing employment.
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This is still a hard no, and it will never happen.
No one would ever find a match as Nurse, Blight or Ghoul. And a 4 man SWF could nix the top 20 killers.
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I hope this is a bug and not an intentional change.
This forum is already bare-bones enough as it is.
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I've always thought about it like an RPG boss fight.
- If you have a coordinated, skilled and properly equipped team that focuses on their objective, the killer is often in for a rough time, especially if they're not equipped to deal with that sweat. This is where the game is certainly survivor-sided and they have a good chance at beating the boss.
- If you have a bunch of SoloQs running meme or just off meta builds and/or not focusing on their objective, then the game isn't survivor-sided.
- If you have a killer going for a win streak using all the greasiest strategies especially on a top tier killer then the game is killer-sided. It's like taking on Emerald in Final Fantasy VII without being completely prepared.
- And everything in between.
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BHVR has a pretty consistent pattern of releasing killers and new character perks overtuned, especially if they're licensed. This pattern goes back to Ash Williams launching with an absurd Mettle of Man, if not further.
They also have another consistent pattern that they nerf that stuff 6-12 months down the road. Jason has only been out for just over 3 months. You just have to give it some time.
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@RFSa09 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114038#Comment_4114038
Why would anyone spent more than 500 dollars on characters before even opening the game, and why would they buy basically free characters like clown, blight and whatever? But anyways, remove perk tiers
I very much doubt a player is parting with $500 to get all that though. I think 3 things happen.
- The player can afford it,
- they're in the novelty phase of the game and love DbD which partially overrides logical thought and
- it's on sale, usually 30-50% off for anything over a year old.
When this trifecta occurs some rare whales will buy everything and many others might not buy all of it but will buy multiple bundles/DLCs at once.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114013#Comment_4114013
If you don't like a topic, you can just stop reading it
I can make reasonable requests and you can choose to not like them. I don't care.
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It's kind of laughable that if someone buys all the characters in the game up front they're signing up for a 110 million bloodpoint grind just to have all the perks at level 1 on all characters and players are still earning bloodpoints on average at less than 100k per game.
It's really rough for people who are buying the game right now so they have no anniversary cakes and many players have ran out of their cakes as well, and the really good bloodpoint earning events are several months away.
Even if a player manages to average 100k bloodpoints per game and they're looking at 1,100 games. Estimating 10 minutes per game, they're looking at 183.3 hours of gameplay to earn that 110 million. That's just the estimated time spent in matches without including time spent waiting in the lobby & elsewhere. It's probably much closer or over 1,000 hours counted by Steam or your console to actually get that 110 million bloodpoints.
Seems like an excellent reason for newer players to not buy everything when they first discover DbD if they think logically rather than emotionally while the novelty is still fresh.
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I still wish they would have made it not affect exposed and into a boon with either a 0 or 4 second lingering effect after leaving the area, which is standard for boons. It would have weakened the perk but made it more interesting.
Instead they do what they usually do, they nuked it from orbit. Twice.
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@DodoSwarm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113943#Comment_4113943
I guess, that's just my way of typing… I more or less was just trying to say "removing pallets" is another example of something survivors would have to get something in return for in the way of countering The Clown… hence why I kind of dismissed it as part of the endless cycle of good ideas that also require counterweights which make them less good ideas.
doesn't it make sense to just give the clown something else in his Kit over RNG limiters in special situations? that's part of the issue with the perk hell DBD has created where all of the sudden you have to consider all of the perks that work with pallets, kind of like they already addressed Vigil for Hindered..
another damned if they do, damned if they don't scenario…Clown is C-tier and it's not like having 2 less pallets spawn would make him magically A-tier, even now that Vigil has been nerfed.
I don't see why the survivors should "get something in return" for those 2 pallets not spawning. The survivors already got something. They're not against a Nurse, Blight or Ghoul.
To anyone reading this, please go downvote the OP. This thread needs to fade away.
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@DodoSwarm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113923#Comment_4113923
The balance gap between killers is something I thought of a potential solution to. Have the maps generate based on the killer. Something like having 3 less pallets spawn on the map for D-tier killers, 2 less for C-Tier and 1 less for B-tier to start with. I think we wouldn't even notice a difference and they'd have to ramp it up even more, but it would be a start. This would be an easy-to-implement way to balance killers without having to do reworks and some killers can't even be buffed like Trapper who we all know is the best basement guardian in the game but it is still D-tier.
This wouldn't work because for example: Clown is bad but his counter play is also pre dropping pallets, removing pallets against him is not really a great fix especially with Vigil gone.
I do agree that making the killer "killable" is a kind of bad idea for Asymm games, it's partially why Evil Dead failed as well, I just didn't mention VHS cause I didn't play it so I can't really pretend like I know why it died. but I will say, interestingly, the killer being bullied and dying contributing to why VHS apparently failed is the same feeling a survivor gets when they are tunneled at 5… "why even bother if I can't do anything and I just die" is exactly what happens to tunneled survivors in basically everything except high MMR.
I just think, again, DBD is running into too many unsolvable issues with time that BHVR is trying to solve with perk balance and number changes that objectively don't fix the underlying problems and now the problems are stacking up. RNG is a major factor in DBD and at a point, to make the game "Fair" it has to go away, but I would argue that its good the game has RNG to the extent that it does, and it's bad that it has become so comp minded, I don't even think it's possible to truly make DBD "fair PVP", it's not compatible with the actual base design of the game, so why not lean into making the game more thematic and fun for both sides?
(That doesn't mean BHVR should just disregard obvious problems either though)
again, I just don't see an end to tunneling in the current design of the gameplay loop, as long as it's even possible, the people who are doing it to be toxic are still going to do it, and as long as it's valuable everyone who plays killer is going to do it. so if BHVR makes it possible but not valuable then only people intentionally being toxic are going to be doing it and if BHVR makes it not possible then there has to be something kind of major to fill the void for the sake of killer players.This wouldn't work because for example: Clown is bad but his counter play is also pre dropping pallets, removing pallets against him is not really a great fix especially with Vigil gone.
And this is why it's pointless to bring up workable ideas on these forums. There's always a bunch of people who will say "This wouldn't work because X" and almost no one who says "Broadly that's a good idea but we'd have to account for X."
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@bm33 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113794#Comment_4113794
Just correcting the way old hatch worked. Hatch would not appear for 4 survivors unless all 5 gens were completed. The rule was number of remaining survivors + 1 = number of gens that needed to be completed for hatch to appear. For hatch to appear with 1 gen remaining the max amount of survivors still alive that could escape would've been 3.
Yes, that is how it worked. I misremembered that convoluted formula.
I still remember a game where I was playing as Plague on Thompson House back in the day and I had a very tight 3 gen in the field with only 1 survivor dead, so I just kept patrolling and puking on the gens for about 5-10 minutes until they all eventually went poof through the floor hole. Given that same scenario today it's 3-4K guaranteed.
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@DodoSwarm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113794#Comment_4113794
Yeah I partially agree (as far as DBD Having found an overall good form for Asymm) but its important to note that neither old mori nor 4 man hatch are examples of a good "second objective" at all, Mori isn't even a second objective its just an insane shortening of the main objective. That doesn't mean that they cannot expand the core game to benefit both sides equally. I would say both old mori and old hatch had the primary fault of just being a net loss for the other side, there was no "win" in 4 man hatch for killer and there was no "win" in old mori for survivor.
Part of the failure of the other Asymms comes from single IP as well, although TCM was doing well until devs abandoned it and F13 is still beloved but was lost due to license problems. Ghost Busters and Evil Dead never had the benefit of being able to expand out of one setting, that is my same concern for Halloween. DBD has the unique stranglehold on the genre of having a large amount of horror icons all in one place even if (in my opinion) they do a pretty bad job of bringing them to life.
DBD has the problem now where there's "too much stuff" (not saying more content is a bad thing directly), and it's starting to overlap and have to be powercreeped to be "new and interesting". someone already pointed out that Judgement draws a lot from Pyramid Head for their kit, but especially perks… there's only so much they can reasonably do with perks considering how limited the actual gameplay is, but at the same time the game is changing killer wise… that's where the disparity between killers like Clown and Trapper and then Kaneki and Jason come in… balancing niche perks around a diverse roster of killers who don't even have the same level of raw capabilities is becoming impossible… there's a resonably strong case that in high MMR people kind of do have to tunnel on certain killers to stay in the game, but on the flipside if tunneling is available on B - F tier killers its also available on A - S Tier killers and it's a problem.
The Tunneling exists because it largely supercedes perks, yes there are perks to combat it, no they are often not used well enough to matter a lot, and killers have learned to play around the best of them. don't forget BT off of hook got lowered by 5 seconds because survivors were… using it to help their team (dang that is rough, we gotta nerf that!) and now killers who wan't to tunnel regardless can do it quicker… no matter what stats they change or tweak, whether its on perks, or base game functions like BT on Hook rescue, it can't fix the problem because in the current gameplay loop you have side A: where low tier killers need to tunnel and making it unviable for them makes the killers unviable (as much as I hate tunneling at all, I play bubba and not tunneling leaves me with a lot of 1 and 2 Kill games) but then you have side B: where high tier killers absolutely do not need to tunnel and do it anyway, but removing the general ability to tunnel through stats disproportionately affects group A, and increasing the ability to tunnel disproportionately affects group B.
This is why, in my opinion, the game has to change. and not in a way that just benefits one side or the other, one that just widens the playing field (while making sure killers who lack pressure have a way to keep up, hence my suggestion of making secondary objectives bend to the killer and be individual rather than generic)There were other asym games not based on single IPs like Video Horror Society and Last Year which failed in significant part thanks to the survivors being able to harder-bully and kill the killer. In DbD survivors can try to bully the killer but not at all like those games did.
there's a resonably strong case that in high MMR people kind of do have to tunnel on certain killers to stay in the game, but on the flipside if tunneling is available on B - F tier killers its also available on A - S Tier killers and it's a problem.
At least you see this, many forum members just get stuck on "tunneling is bad" and there is no discussion. Even with higher tier killers if you go up against a good enough team of survivors you may have to get an elimination ASAP to have a chance at winning. It doesn't take a comp SWF to make this necessary it can happen with 4 SoloQ survivors each with 5k hours each who have great game sense. (Although I am not sure current matchmaking even allows that but that's another discussion.) That's partly why I brought up old Ebony Moris in my pervious post, if the killer recognized the team in their lobby as a SWF or a group of good survivors they could equip an Ebony Mori (and also switch to their strongest killer) to level the playing field. But BHVR handed out Ebony Moris like candy and people abused them so we're not allowed to have nice things. Killers have less options to deal with these sweaty games so they resort to what they have left, tunneling and slugging. So now we have things like this thread trying to get rid of tunneling which could lead to killers knowing they're in a hopeless match as soon as they load in, i.e. "against this squad with this killer on this map I'm cooked."
The balance gap between killers is something I thought of a potential solution to. Have the maps generate based on the killer. Something like having 3 less pallets spawn on the map for D-tier killers, 2 less for C-Tier and 1 less for B-tier to start with. I think we wouldn't even notice a difference and they'd have to ramp it up even more, but it would be a start. This would be an easy-to-implement way to balance killers without having to do reworks and some killers can't even be buffed like Trapper who we all know is the best basement guardian in the game but it is still D-tier.
I also think map offerings should be retired then they could move to curated map lists for each killer, which would be affected by the killer's addon selections of course. I think this could actually be one of the better ideas to reduce tunneling because we'd get less of "OMG I got this dog doo doo map, I need to send someone back to the campfire immediately."
My last two paragraphs are probably too crazy to take seriously. But I do think they'd lead to more balanced and more fun matches.
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@DodoSwarm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113527#Comment_4113527
I mean there should be a few ways to win for either side that make sense directly regarding the killer in play. that way one killer or another isn't "Good or bad" at all of these things and it would do a lot to solve the "S Tier, F Tier" Tierlists because the matches would be personalized to the killer, things that would propose a direct threat to the killer winning the game if they want to just mindlessly camp a hook and then tunnel off of it. I just don't see a way in the current layout of the game they are going to be able to stop tunneling as being the consistent strategy because if you strip everything away except base gameplay the fact that the killer can win around the hook but the survivors cannot is why tunneling is so strong.
There's been basically zero core gameplay change in DBD for its entire existence and so no wonder tunneling and camping remains the same when they're trying to solve it with perks… its a problem with the actual gameplay design not perk statsThat's not really true. It used to be that with an Ebony Mori offering killers could mori survivors after just downing them and later after just hooking them once and then downing them again. So killers used to have easy mode with a single offering.
On the other side the hatch used to be an insane mechanic. Without explaining it completely as it was quite complicated, the hatch would spawn with all 4 (edit to correct: 3) survivors still alive with 1 gen left and with just one key they could all escape.
So stuff used to be really broken on both sides, and in both cases it's just from bringing 1 thing. They deleted that stuff which changed the core gameplay, simplifying it.
The issue is that DbD got really lucky and found a simple formula in an asym that somehow works. And after seeing so many other asyms with different formulas fail time and time again including their own Deathgarden, it's understandable that they don't want to mess with it too much as they could kill the goose that laying golden eggs.
Whenever they try to mess with the core gameplay it backfires. There is no other asym we can point at and say "that's how it should be done."
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113129#Comment_4113129
Never said all rules were wrong, which is why your analogies were and still are bad.I'll just quote you: "The Survivor Rulebook has no meaning, the Killer Rulebook has no meaning. Play how you want. You can't tell me not to tunnel just as I can't tell you not to gen rush. It's all absurd."
Note - It's all absurd.
I then went and explained why that was a false equivalence. You misunderstand that the examples were an explanation of what a false equivalence is. I'm explaining the logical error you are making and giving you two examples of what that logical error would look like in other scenarios.
But it is not wrong and it's not against the rules. Robbing banks, that's against the law.If robbing banks was not against the law, would it be okay?
At no point did he call the Survivor Rulebook equal to the Killer Rulebook or that tunneling was equal to gen rushing.
There is no false equivalence in the post that he made on August 5th. Let it rest.
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@Piruluk said:
I almost never see it anymore, Lithe is everywhere though.
The rest of exhaustion perks are extremely situational:
- Balanced Landing most maps barely have a spot to trigger
- Overcome depends on killer to trigger it, so killer can play around it, and insta down killers laugh on it or killers where you cant heal
- Smash hit can be played around it depends on the killer to trigger
- Sprint Burst hard to manage and the reward is miniscule now
- Head on is a meme
- Dramaturgy requires you to be healthy and risky also barely gets you distance
- Dead Hard very hard to manage and sometimes you end up on the floor anyway due moderate ping killer
So ultimately only Lithe viable now.
But will be nerfed within a year or so.
It seems survivor perks are designed to barely do anything but unlike killers survivor has no power to play around they are just skin so the trend almost every perk useless for them makes the role extremely unappealing and this is why killer queue so long besides evenings
At this point I wouldn't be surprised if they nerf Lithe with the meta-shakeup coming in about 5 weeks.
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@cogsturning said:
If someone wants to keep their MMR lower that it should be it used to be killers could get 8 hooks and giver the survivors a sporting round… but what do they do now? Play a li bit and AFK?
This right here is probably why they don't go into detail about it. You're supposed to play normal and land in the appropriate lobbies. You're not supposed to alter your actions to manulipulate the system and end up in a lower bracket than your ability belongs in.
The point is: people who want to manipulate their MMR will find a way to MMR within the constraints they are given.
If people think they can limit their MMR by constraining their kills then we get games where people get 8 hooks and zero kills (providing the survivors unhook) and those are rather sporting games.
If people think they can limit their MMR by limiting their time in chase, hooks and kills well where does that leave us? Killers that limit their time in chase, hooks and kills? What kind of killer does that resemble now?
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@Arcturus said:
Best BHVR do is wait another decade of the community asking for that lmao
Sad but true.
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@Piruluk said:
In general I think blindness is problematic design, it's very good against solo but does nothing against swf
I could see making it so blindness doesn't affect hooked/caged survivors or exile statues just like IIRC it doesn't affect Pig boxes.
But with the prevalence of Windows of Opportunity, Five Steps Ahead, Deja Vu, Bond & others there is still a firm place for blindness in DbD.
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This is a case where it should be "The Entity Was Entertained."
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The expectation should be that players pay attention to the game.
Not that they're not and need the game made easier for them.
"Chat distracted me."
And?
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@Slurp_Ramen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110161#Comment_4110161
I agree, used to think the same. I hit my rock bottom with the game around the black banquet like most people.
I don’t know what changed, but something DID change, idk the game just feels different.
I mean people can say it can always get worse but I truly think the worst is either already over or almost over.
Are you sure you're not just entertaining delusion? What you feel and reality can be completely different things.
DbD still has no real reason to improve. It has no competition and it riding that sweet sweet Jason high.
Seriously what points to a Golden Age?
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I wish I could say I hope you're right but I've played DbD long enough to know it devours hope, so my heart has turned to stone. If I feel anything but apathy, it's usually disappointment. BHVR continually overpromises and underdelivers.
We'll see what the rebalance patch brings. Maybe the game won't be so bad after, but it's not going to magically become great. Will the meta be more fun?
Perhaps they'll give modders the freedom to fix and add fun to the game, and then maybe a period of time will come that can be described as a golden age.
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I've been playing DbD for many years now and imo a lot of fun from the game has been deleted from the game. A lot of the the fun stuff was beyond broken but that was part of the charm, and generally that stuff encouraged killer-survivor interactions. As killer if you managed to beat a squad of insta-heal medkits you felt great after, even though the survivors often weren't trying that hard to win because they wanted to insta-pick their teammate in the killer's face. OG Dead Hard was stupid broken but damn was it fun to use and outplay, at least until everyone started DHing for distance rather than interacting with the killer using it. Old prayer beads Spirit was something on the other side that was insanely broken where you could get multiple grabs off generators every match, although it wasn't much fun getting grabbed this way. 5 blink Nurse was terrifying but the fatigue she got if she whiffed was insanely punishing, but you felt like an ascended being if she failed to down you. Trapper on old Haddonfield with traps that could not be disarmed. Of course there was Sky Billy which was broken but just lead to fun for everyone involved.
The problem is all that fun has been deleted from DbD and still nothing has been added to DbD to replace that fun. DbD seems so formulaic now. Do your gens, get chased, downed and hooked, do your quests repeat. Chase, down and hook survivors, locate next survivor, repeat. Back in the day most games were exciting, now they are much less so. Chases aren't as interesting now that there are more pallets but paired with weaker loops.
I've become really jaded. I keep doing the events, rifts and collecting the stuff but it all just feels like a grind, hoping that one day the fun will return.
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The Broken Font? I thought they already did that. 🤪
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109469#Comment_4109469
You still have yet to put anything forward that could be defined as a concept. So what am I not engaging with?
No, I put it forward that DS should be focus of anti-tunnel, instead of Endurance. That is a concept. If you need more clarification, you could ask instead of rail.
Do you want to delete Endurance and buff DS? Endurance has been proven to be a necessary mechanic ever since Borrowed Time was introduced.
Yeah, I wouldn't get rid of basekit BT, but I would strip endurance off OTR and make OTR into total info black-out. This prevents it from overlapping with DS, which causes the weaponisation, and gives OTR a different, also non-weaponisable anti-tunnel effect.
The whole problem with tunnelling got kicked into high gear when 6.1. ripped out DS and put OTR in its place, which was a downgrade for both sides of the aisle. It was worse as anti-tunnel and better against non-tunnellers. It needs to be reverted. DS works better for both parties (Though some may spin up fanciful tales about being 'forced' to grab someone out of a locker) and thus should be brought back.
And in fact, BHVR -knows- DS was an effective tunnelling deterrent, because that is the literal, exact reason we now have an obsession in every match, even if no perk interacts with it. That was implemented because the absence of an obsession meant there was no DS, which gave killers the green light to tunnel, so DS, by itself, was clearly stemming the tide.
I never railed against you at all in this thread. Not at all like your first response to me in this thread where every word dripped with rancor. Try not to practice hypocrisy.
You had never said anything about OTR until now. Finally I can understand part of the concept you have in your head.
Honestly, I don't mind most of this but if I were to buff DS I'd give survivors haste during the stun instead of making the stun longer. But I still think DS is in a fine spot now that pallet density has been increased. In most games it's still plenty powerful and it's not like killers only have to endure 1 DS stun per game and only eat those stuns when they are tunneling.
I still believe 6.1.0 removed a fair amount of fun from DbD, fun that is still absent from the game, possibly to never be replaced. One of the best parts of that patch was making Ruin deactivate once a survivor died and they got rid of that. I think a better way to deter tunneling would be to have all regression perks start strong but get a nerf once a survivor dies in the match, and probably disable them altogether once 2 are dead.
There was an exit survey, and tunnelling was the #1 issue recorded.
Where did they share that?
Well, perhaps if they did exit surveys further back tunneling may have always been the #1 issue reported. We'll never know.
This was not really a public match, even if it happened on the public Servers. This was a Comp Team sniping a Comp Killer. Not at all compareable to regular public matches.
Do you know what was compareable to regular public matches? Almost 2000 games of a person making the game miserable for Survivors to boost their ego. But at least the tantrum afterwards was entertaining.
As I said elsewhere in this thread comp is just an easy example to point at. We still have scenarios in public matches where a killer can have their first chase take too long and the other 3 survivors split up and finish 2-3 gens early and the killer may have to try to quickly eliminate a survivor to stay in the game if they want to win. I'm sure it happens many times every day.
The Devs had measurements in their initial proposal, e.g. if a Survivor dies before 6 total Hook States, the remaining Survivors get a repair speed Buff. They could have easily made this more dynamic for example. 6 total Hook States are a reasonable number if we want to rule out tunneling from the start, but they could have adjusted it to be lower when more Gens are completed. E.g. with 4 Gens done, it is only 3 total Hook Stages so that Survivors would not get a Repair Speed Bonus when they are already leading. Or they could have increased the benefits the Killer gets the less Gens are remaining so that Killers who decide not to tunnel will get even stronger when Survivors complete their objective.
I wouldn't mind comeback mechanics for survivors as killers still have tunneling and slugging as powerful comeback mechanics.
I don't think BHVR has the will to develop, test and implement the mechanics themselves. They got rid of Ruin disabling after a kill and as you said they dumpstered that proposal. Probably it'll be modders that do this work and then in 2028 BHVR will copy their work and bring it to live.
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I won't know until I spend my 9000 shards and try them out myself. I didn't play the PTB.
I don't have high expectations. I might just get my adept and go back to playing Billy and Legion.
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The first paragraph doesn't really respond to anything. Something being a mix of wins and losses goes hand in hand with the idea of both sides having a chance to win. If anything, tunneling works against that rationale as a killer who tunnels takes it out of the hands of most of the survivors and puts it solely in the hands of the tunneled target.
I'm all for both sides having a chance to win which is one of the reasons I really want them to address tunneling.
The 'every match' is difficult given the extreme randomness of match ups that exist in DbD, which is a deeper topic than this thread.
Well sometimes tunneling is a comeback mechanic for killers, so it's a nuanced problem, making tunneling a very hard problem to address. Hence the massive grey area I mentioned earlier.
There's a reason keeping new survivors around has been difficult, and tunneling is one of the primary reasons.
This isn't anything new. DbD has always had a player retention problem. New players join with new licenses and leave when the novelty and/or cakes run out. Who's to say tunneling is more to blame now than any of the other multitude of problems this game has.
I'm not really sure what we're discussing here anymore.