ForTheEntity
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Maybe I'm just downvote-farming but I am going to say it:
The Nurse is balanced.
Over the last 3 years every time I've looked at her kill rate on Night Light and whenever I've seen an official kill rate for her, it's been below average.
I love playing against Nurses because I know how to run them and usually they're not that good.
The only change I'd like to see is if she tries to blink through a pallet that is dropping it would intercept her, stun her and put her into fatigue. That way she wouldn't be able to completely ignore pallets the way she does now but she could still outplay them by waiting for the pallet drop animation to finish, but survivors could dumb-tech or do something since she couldn't hit them while the survivor is stuck in the pallet pulldown animation. I just think it would be more fun than what we have now.
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This rift has been particularly stingy with rift fragments. I think this 2v8 is the only event we got this rift that gives rift fragments. IIRC last month's even gave us any. BHVR might have considered giving us no frags for 2v8 so perhaps we are "lucky" that they reduced them from 75 to 50 and not to 0. Next rift hopefully we get frags from Haunted by Daylight.
@LordGlint said:
Thats one reason I tend to wait on spending money on the rift. I get it tiered up, then when im at the end.. I "buy" it and immediately get rewarded the cells back. If something comes up and I end up not finishing the rift, then im not out anything.
This is my approach as well. Usually we have to get to level 69 but this rift it's only 67. Gratz on getting yours there.
I am not even sure if I'll get there this rift. I wouldn't even worry about it if I didn't actually like some of the black and gold cosmetics like Mikaela's dress and Kate's top. It would be the first rift ever that I haven't got to level 70 on. I am currently in the 40s.
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I don't think the devs are intentionally trying to ruin anything. They just can't help it.
Their checklist includes:
✅Does it make DbD more of a grind?
and not:
❌ Does it make DbD more fun?
And it's a crying shame.This salt mechanic is just more of the same.
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Your ChatGPT-generated suggestion has already been soundly rejected. Stop making threads about it.
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The Endurance Test:If survivors finish gens early, their reward is that their objective is done. The rest of the match becomes a pure endurance test—looping, hiding, and outsmarting the killer until time runs out.We already have a very similar scenario that already plays out every day that this would be very similar to. The 2v1 scenario when there are multiple generators left. Survivors often completely forgo doing the generators and go into full hide mode in the hopes that they can out-endure the other survivor for a chance at hatch. And sometimes it has to continue because the killer slugs for the 4K and then the last survivor standing has to outlast a 4 minute bleedout timer to have a chance to survive.
I wouldn't enjoy this mechanic from either side.
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Because someone at BHVR who checks certain boxes but only knows how to make minor lobby UI changes needs to justify their continuing employment.
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This is still a hard no, and it will never happen.
No one would ever find a match as Nurse, Blight or Ghoul. And a 4 man SWF could nix the top 20 killers.
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I hope this is a bug and not an intentional change.
This forum is already bare-bones enough as it is.
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I've always thought about it like an RPG boss fight.
- If you have a coordinated, skilled and properly equipped team that focuses on their objective, the killer is often in for a rough time, especially if they're not equipped to deal with that sweat. This is where the game is certainly survivor-sided and they have a good chance at beating the boss.
- If you have a bunch of SoloQs running meme or just off meta builds and/or not focusing on their objective, then the game isn't survivor-sided.
- If you have a killer going for a win streak using all the greasiest strategies especially on a top tier killer then the game is killer-sided. It's like taking on Emerald in Final Fantasy VII without being completely prepared.
- And everything in between.
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BHVR has a pretty consistent pattern of releasing killers and new character perks overtuned, especially if they're licensed. This pattern goes back to Ash Williams launching with an absurd Mettle of Man, if not further.
They also have another consistent pattern that they nerf that stuff 6-12 months down the road. Jason has only been out for just over 3 months. You just have to give it some time.
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@RFSa09 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114038#Comment_4114038
Why would anyone spent more than 500 dollars on characters before even opening the game, and why would they buy basically free characters like clown, blight and whatever? But anyways, remove perk tiers
I very much doubt a player is parting with $500 to get all that though. I think 3 things happen.
- The player can afford it,
- they're in the novelty phase of the game and love DbD which partially overrides logical thought and
- it's on sale, usually 30-50% off for anything over a year old.
When this trifecta occurs some rare whales will buy everything and many others might not buy all of it but will buy multiple bundles/DLCs at once.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4114013#Comment_4114013
If you don't like a topic, you can just stop reading it
I can make reasonable requests and you can choose to not like them. I don't care.
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It's kind of laughable that if someone buys all the characters in the game up front they're signing up for a 110 million bloodpoint grind just to have all the perks at level 1 on all characters and players are still earning bloodpoints on average at less than 100k per game.
It's really rough for people who are buying the game right now so they have no anniversary cakes and many players have ran out of their cakes as well, and the really good bloodpoint earning events are several months away.
Even if a player manages to average 100k bloodpoints per game and they're looking at 1,100 games. Estimating 10 minutes per game, they're looking at 183.3 hours of gameplay to earn that 110 million. That's just the estimated time spent in matches without including time spent waiting in the lobby & elsewhere. It's probably much closer or over 1,000 hours counted by Steam or your console to actually get that 110 million bloodpoints.
Seems like an excellent reason for newer players to not buy everything when they first discover DbD if they think logically rather than emotionally while the novelty is still fresh.
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I still wish they would have made it not affect exposed and into a boon with either a 0 or 4 second lingering effect after leaving the area, which is standard for boons. It would have weakened the perk but made it more interesting.
Instead they do what they usually do, they nuked it from orbit. Twice.
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@DodoSwarm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113943#Comment_4113943
I guess, that's just my way of typing… I more or less was just trying to say "removing pallets" is another example of something survivors would have to get something in return for in the way of countering The Clown… hence why I kind of dismissed it as part of the endless cycle of good ideas that also require counterweights which make them less good ideas.
doesn't it make sense to just give the clown something else in his Kit over RNG limiters in special situations? that's part of the issue with the perk hell DBD has created where all of the sudden you have to consider all of the perks that work with pallets, kind of like they already addressed Vigil for Hindered..
another damned if they do, damned if they don't scenario…Clown is C-tier and it's not like having 2 less pallets spawn would make him magically A-tier, even now that Vigil has been nerfed.
I don't see why the survivors should "get something in return" for those 2 pallets not spawning. The survivors already got something. They're not against a Nurse, Blight or Ghoul.
To anyone reading this, please go downvote the OP. This thread needs to fade away.
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@DodoSwarm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113923#Comment_4113923
The balance gap between killers is something I thought of a potential solution to. Have the maps generate based on the killer. Something like having 3 less pallets spawn on the map for D-tier killers, 2 less for C-Tier and 1 less for B-tier to start with. I think we wouldn't even notice a difference and they'd have to ramp it up even more, but it would be a start. This would be an easy-to-implement way to balance killers without having to do reworks and some killers can't even be buffed like Trapper who we all know is the best basement guardian in the game but it is still D-tier.
This wouldn't work because for example: Clown is bad but his counter play is also pre dropping pallets, removing pallets against him is not really a great fix especially with Vigil gone.
I do agree that making the killer "killable" is a kind of bad idea for Asymm games, it's partially why Evil Dead failed as well, I just didn't mention VHS cause I didn't play it so I can't really pretend like I know why it died. but I will say, interestingly, the killer being bullied and dying contributing to why VHS apparently failed is the same feeling a survivor gets when they are tunneled at 5… "why even bother if I can't do anything and I just die" is exactly what happens to tunneled survivors in basically everything except high MMR.
I just think, again, DBD is running into too many unsolvable issues with time that BHVR is trying to solve with perk balance and number changes that objectively don't fix the underlying problems and now the problems are stacking up. RNG is a major factor in DBD and at a point, to make the game "Fair" it has to go away, but I would argue that its good the game has RNG to the extent that it does, and it's bad that it has become so comp minded, I don't even think it's possible to truly make DBD "fair PVP", it's not compatible with the actual base design of the game, so why not lean into making the game more thematic and fun for both sides?
(That doesn't mean BHVR should just disregard obvious problems either though)
again, I just don't see an end to tunneling in the current design of the gameplay loop, as long as it's even possible, the people who are doing it to be toxic are still going to do it, and as long as it's valuable everyone who plays killer is going to do it. so if BHVR makes it possible but not valuable then only people intentionally being toxic are going to be doing it and if BHVR makes it not possible then there has to be something kind of major to fill the void for the sake of killer players.This wouldn't work because for example: Clown is bad but his counter play is also pre dropping pallets, removing pallets against him is not really a great fix especially with Vigil gone.
And this is why it's pointless to bring up workable ideas on these forums. There's always a bunch of people who will say "This wouldn't work because X" and almost no one who says "Broadly that's a good idea but we'd have to account for X."
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@bm33 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113794#Comment_4113794
Just correcting the way old hatch worked. Hatch would not appear for 4 survivors unless all 5 gens were completed. The rule was number of remaining survivors + 1 = number of gens that needed to be completed for hatch to appear. For hatch to appear with 1 gen remaining the max amount of survivors still alive that could escape would've been 3.
Yes, that is how it worked. I misremembered that convoluted formula.
I still remember a game where I was playing as Plague on Thompson House back in the day and I had a very tight 3 gen in the field with only 1 survivor dead, so I just kept patrolling and puking on the gens for about 5-10 minutes until they all eventually went poof through the floor hole. Given that same scenario today it's 3-4K guaranteed.
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@DodoSwarm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113794#Comment_4113794
Yeah I partially agree (as far as DBD Having found an overall good form for Asymm) but its important to note that neither old mori nor 4 man hatch are examples of a good "second objective" at all, Mori isn't even a second objective its just an insane shortening of the main objective. That doesn't mean that they cannot expand the core game to benefit both sides equally. I would say both old mori and old hatch had the primary fault of just being a net loss for the other side, there was no "win" in 4 man hatch for killer and there was no "win" in old mori for survivor.
Part of the failure of the other Asymms comes from single IP as well, although TCM was doing well until devs abandoned it and F13 is still beloved but was lost due to license problems. Ghost Busters and Evil Dead never had the benefit of being able to expand out of one setting, that is my same concern for Halloween. DBD has the unique stranglehold on the genre of having a large amount of horror icons all in one place even if (in my opinion) they do a pretty bad job of bringing them to life.
DBD has the problem now where there's "too much stuff" (not saying more content is a bad thing directly), and it's starting to overlap and have to be powercreeped to be "new and interesting". someone already pointed out that Judgement draws a lot from Pyramid Head for their kit, but especially perks… there's only so much they can reasonably do with perks considering how limited the actual gameplay is, but at the same time the game is changing killer wise… that's where the disparity between killers like Clown and Trapper and then Kaneki and Jason come in… balancing niche perks around a diverse roster of killers who don't even have the same level of raw capabilities is becoming impossible… there's a resonably strong case that in high MMR people kind of do have to tunnel on certain killers to stay in the game, but on the flipside if tunneling is available on B - F tier killers its also available on A - S Tier killers and it's a problem.
The Tunneling exists because it largely supercedes perks, yes there are perks to combat it, no they are often not used well enough to matter a lot, and killers have learned to play around the best of them. don't forget BT off of hook got lowered by 5 seconds because survivors were… using it to help their team (dang that is rough, we gotta nerf that!) and now killers who wan't to tunnel regardless can do it quicker… no matter what stats they change or tweak, whether its on perks, or base game functions like BT on Hook rescue, it can't fix the problem because in the current gameplay loop you have side A: where low tier killers need to tunnel and making it unviable for them makes the killers unviable (as much as I hate tunneling at all, I play bubba and not tunneling leaves me with a lot of 1 and 2 Kill games) but then you have side B: where high tier killers absolutely do not need to tunnel and do it anyway, but removing the general ability to tunnel through stats disproportionately affects group A, and increasing the ability to tunnel disproportionately affects group B.
This is why, in my opinion, the game has to change. and not in a way that just benefits one side or the other, one that just widens the playing field (while making sure killers who lack pressure have a way to keep up, hence my suggestion of making secondary objectives bend to the killer and be individual rather than generic)There were other asym games not based on single IPs like Video Horror Society and Last Year which failed in significant part thanks to the survivors being able to harder-bully and kill the killer. In DbD survivors can try to bully the killer but not at all like those games did.
there's a resonably strong case that in high MMR people kind of do have to tunnel on certain killers to stay in the game, but on the flipside if tunneling is available on B - F tier killers its also available on A - S Tier killers and it's a problem.
At least you see this, many forum members just get stuck on "tunneling is bad" and there is no discussion. Even with higher tier killers if you go up against a good enough team of survivors you may have to get an elimination ASAP to have a chance at winning. It doesn't take a comp SWF to make this necessary it can happen with 4 SoloQ survivors each with 5k hours each who have great game sense. (Although I am not sure current matchmaking even allows that but that's another discussion.) That's partly why I brought up old Ebony Moris in my pervious post, if the killer recognized the team in their lobby as a SWF or a group of good survivors they could equip an Ebony Mori (and also switch to their strongest killer) to level the playing field. But BHVR handed out Ebony Moris like candy and people abused them so we're not allowed to have nice things. Killers have less options to deal with these sweaty games so they resort to what they have left, tunneling and slugging. So now we have things like this thread trying to get rid of tunneling which could lead to killers knowing they're in a hopeless match as soon as they load in, i.e. "against this squad with this killer on this map I'm cooked."
The balance gap between killers is something I thought of a potential solution to. Have the maps generate based on the killer. Something like having 3 less pallets spawn on the map for D-tier killers, 2 less for C-Tier and 1 less for B-tier to start with. I think we wouldn't even notice a difference and they'd have to ramp it up even more, but it would be a start. This would be an easy-to-implement way to balance killers without having to do reworks and some killers can't even be buffed like Trapper who we all know is the best basement guardian in the game but it is still D-tier.
I also think map offerings should be retired then they could move to curated map lists for each killer, which would be affected by the killer's addon selections of course. I think this could actually be one of the better ideas to reduce tunneling because we'd get less of "OMG I got this dog doo doo map, I need to send someone back to the campfire immediately."
My last two paragraphs are probably too crazy to take seriously. But I do think they'd lead to more balanced and more fun matches.
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@DodoSwarm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113527#Comment_4113527
I mean there should be a few ways to win for either side that make sense directly regarding the killer in play. that way one killer or another isn't "Good or bad" at all of these things and it would do a lot to solve the "S Tier, F Tier" Tierlists because the matches would be personalized to the killer, things that would propose a direct threat to the killer winning the game if they want to just mindlessly camp a hook and then tunnel off of it. I just don't see a way in the current layout of the game they are going to be able to stop tunneling as being the consistent strategy because if you strip everything away except base gameplay the fact that the killer can win around the hook but the survivors cannot is why tunneling is so strong.
There's been basically zero core gameplay change in DBD for its entire existence and so no wonder tunneling and camping remains the same when they're trying to solve it with perks… its a problem with the actual gameplay design not perk statsThat's not really true. It used to be that with an Ebony Mori offering killers could mori survivors after just downing them and later after just hooking them once and then downing them again. So killers used to have easy mode with a single offering.
On the other side the hatch used to be an insane mechanic. Without explaining it completely as it was quite complicated, the hatch would spawn with all 4 (edit to correct: 3) survivors still alive with 1 gen left and with just one key they could all escape.
So stuff used to be really broken on both sides, and in both cases it's just from bringing 1 thing. They deleted that stuff which changed the core gameplay, simplifying it.
The issue is that DbD got really lucky and found a simple formula in an asym that somehow works. And after seeing so many other asyms with different formulas fail time and time again including their own Deathgarden, it's understandable that they don't want to mess with it too much as they could kill the goose that laying golden eggs.
Whenever they try to mess with the core gameplay it backfires. There is no other asym we can point at and say "that's how it should be done."
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4113129#Comment_4113129
Never said all rules were wrong, which is why your analogies were and still are bad.I'll just quote you: "The Survivor Rulebook has no meaning, the Killer Rulebook has no meaning. Play how you want. You can't tell me not to tunnel just as I can't tell you not to gen rush. It's all absurd."
Note - It's all absurd.
I then went and explained why that was a false equivalence. You misunderstand that the examples were an explanation of what a false equivalence is. I'm explaining the logical error you are making and giving you two examples of what that logical error would look like in other scenarios.
But it is not wrong and it's not against the rules. Robbing banks, that's against the law.If robbing banks was not against the law, would it be okay?
At no point did he call the Survivor Rulebook equal to the Killer Rulebook or that tunneling was equal to gen rushing.
There is no false equivalence in the post that he made on August 5th. Let it rest.
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@Piruluk said:
I almost never see it anymore, Lithe is everywhere though.
The rest of exhaustion perks are extremely situational:
- Balanced Landing most maps barely have a spot to trigger
- Overcome depends on killer to trigger it, so killer can play around it, and insta down killers laugh on it or killers where you cant heal
- Smash hit can be played around it depends on the killer to trigger
- Sprint Burst hard to manage and the reward is miniscule now
- Head on is a meme
- Dramaturgy requires you to be healthy and risky also barely gets you distance
- Dead Hard very hard to manage and sometimes you end up on the floor anyway due moderate ping killer
So ultimately only Lithe viable now.
But will be nerfed within a year or so.
It seems survivor perks are designed to barely do anything but unlike killers survivor has no power to play around they are just skin so the trend almost every perk useless for them makes the role extremely unappealing and this is why killer queue so long besides evenings
At this point I wouldn't be surprised if they nerf Lithe with the meta-shakeup coming in about 5 weeks.
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@cogsturning said:
If someone wants to keep their MMR lower that it should be it used to be killers could get 8 hooks and giver the survivors a sporting round… but what do they do now? Play a li bit and AFK?
This right here is probably why they don't go into detail about it. You're supposed to play normal and land in the appropriate lobbies. You're not supposed to alter your actions to manulipulate the system and end up in a lower bracket than your ability belongs in.
The point is: people who want to manipulate their MMR will find a way to MMR within the constraints they are given.
If people think they can limit their MMR by constraining their kills then we get games where people get 8 hooks and zero kills (providing the survivors unhook) and those are rather sporting games.
If people think they can limit their MMR by limiting their time in chase, hooks and kills well where does that leave us? Killers that limit their time in chase, hooks and kills? What kind of killer does that resemble now?
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@Arcturus said:
Best BHVR do is wait another decade of the community asking for that lmao
Sad but true.
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@Piruluk said:
In general I think blindness is problematic design, it's very good against solo but does nothing against swf
I could see making it so blindness doesn't affect hooked/caged survivors or exile statues just like IIRC it doesn't affect Pig boxes.
But with the prevalence of Windows of Opportunity, Five Steps Ahead, Deja Vu, Bond & others there is still a firm place for blindness in DbD.
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This is a case where it should be "The Entity Was Entertained."
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The expectation should be that players pay attention to the game.
Not that they're not and need the game made easier for them.
"Chat distracted me."
And?
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@Slurp_Ramen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4110161#Comment_4110161
I agree, used to think the same. I hit my rock bottom with the game around the black banquet like most people.
I don’t know what changed, but something DID change, idk the game just feels different.
I mean people can say it can always get worse but I truly think the worst is either already over or almost over.
Are you sure you're not just entertaining delusion? What you feel and reality can be completely different things.
DbD still has no real reason to improve. It has no competition and it riding that sweet sweet Jason high.
Seriously what points to a Golden Age?
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I wish I could say I hope you're right but I've played DbD long enough to know it devours hope, so my heart has turned to stone. If I feel anything but apathy, it's usually disappointment. BHVR continually overpromises and underdelivers.
We'll see what the rebalance patch brings. Maybe the game won't be so bad after, but it's not going to magically become great. Will the meta be more fun?
Perhaps they'll give modders the freedom to fix and add fun to the game, and then maybe a period of time will come that can be described as a golden age.
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I've been playing DbD for many years now and imo a lot of fun from the game has been deleted from the game. A lot of the the fun stuff was beyond broken but that was part of the charm, and generally that stuff encouraged killer-survivor interactions. As killer if you managed to beat a squad of insta-heal medkits you felt great after, even though the survivors often weren't trying that hard to win because they wanted to insta-pick their teammate in the killer's face. OG Dead Hard was stupid broken but damn was it fun to use and outplay, at least until everyone started DHing for distance rather than interacting with the killer using it. Old prayer beads Spirit was something on the other side that was insanely broken where you could get multiple grabs off generators every match, although it wasn't much fun getting grabbed this way. 5 blink Nurse was terrifying but the fatigue she got if she whiffed was insanely punishing, but you felt like an ascended being if she failed to down you. Trapper on old Haddonfield with traps that could not be disarmed. Of course there was Sky Billy which was broken but just lead to fun for everyone involved.
The problem is all that fun has been deleted from DbD and still nothing has been added to DbD to replace that fun. DbD seems so formulaic now. Do your gens, get chased, downed and hooked, do your quests repeat. Chase, down and hook survivors, locate next survivor, repeat. Back in the day most games were exciting, now they are much less so. Chases aren't as interesting now that there are more pallets but paired with weaker loops.
I've become really jaded. I keep doing the events, rifts and collecting the stuff but it all just feels like a grind, hoping that one day the fun will return.
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The Broken Font? I thought they already did that. 🤪
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109469#Comment_4109469
You still have yet to put anything forward that could be defined as a concept. So what am I not engaging with?
No, I put it forward that DS should be focus of anti-tunnel, instead of Endurance. That is a concept. If you need more clarification, you could ask instead of rail.
Do you want to delete Endurance and buff DS? Endurance has been proven to be a necessary mechanic ever since Borrowed Time was introduced.
Yeah, I wouldn't get rid of basekit BT, but I would strip endurance off OTR and make OTR into total info black-out. This prevents it from overlapping with DS, which causes the weaponisation, and gives OTR a different, also non-weaponisable anti-tunnel effect.
The whole problem with tunnelling got kicked into high gear when 6.1. ripped out DS and put OTR in its place, which was a downgrade for both sides of the aisle. It was worse as anti-tunnel and better against non-tunnellers. It needs to be reverted. DS works better for both parties (Though some may spin up fanciful tales about being 'forced' to grab someone out of a locker) and thus should be brought back.
And in fact, BHVR -knows- DS was an effective tunnelling deterrent, because that is the literal, exact reason we now have an obsession in every match, even if no perk interacts with it. That was implemented because the absence of an obsession meant there was no DS, which gave killers the green light to tunnel, so DS, by itself, was clearly stemming the tide.
I never railed against you at all in this thread. Not at all like your first response to me in this thread where every word dripped with rancor. Try not to practice hypocrisy.
You had never said anything about OTR until now. Finally I can understand part of the concept you have in your head.
Honestly, I don't mind most of this but if I were to buff DS I'd give survivors haste during the stun instead of making the stun longer. But I still think DS is in a fine spot now that pallet density has been increased. In most games it's still plenty powerful and it's not like killers only have to endure 1 DS stun per game and only eat those stuns when they are tunneling.
I still believe 6.1.0 removed a fair amount of fun from DbD, fun that is still absent from the game, possibly to never be replaced. One of the best parts of that patch was making Ruin deactivate once a survivor died and they got rid of that. I think a better way to deter tunneling would be to have all regression perks start strong but get a nerf once a survivor dies in the match, and probably disable them altogether once 2 are dead.
There was an exit survey, and tunnelling was the #1 issue recorded.
Where did they share that?
Well, perhaps if they did exit surveys further back tunneling may have always been the #1 issue reported. We'll never know.
This was not really a public match, even if it happened on the public Servers. This was a Comp Team sniping a Comp Killer. Not at all compareable to regular public matches.
Do you know what was compareable to regular public matches? Almost 2000 games of a person making the game miserable for Survivors to boost their ego. But at least the tantrum afterwards was entertaining.
As I said elsewhere in this thread comp is just an easy example to point at. We still have scenarios in public matches where a killer can have their first chase take too long and the other 3 survivors split up and finish 2-3 gens early and the killer may have to try to quickly eliminate a survivor to stay in the game if they want to win. I'm sure it happens many times every day.
The Devs had measurements in their initial proposal, e.g. if a Survivor dies before 6 total Hook States, the remaining Survivors get a repair speed Buff. They could have easily made this more dynamic for example. 6 total Hook States are a reasonable number if we want to rule out tunneling from the start, but they could have adjusted it to be lower when more Gens are completed. E.g. with 4 Gens done, it is only 3 total Hook Stages so that Survivors would not get a Repair Speed Bonus when they are already leading. Or they could have increased the benefits the Killer gets the less Gens are remaining so that Killers who decide not to tunnel will get even stronger when Survivors complete their objective.
I wouldn't mind comeback mechanics for survivors as killers still have tunneling and slugging as powerful comeback mechanics.
I don't think BHVR has the will to develop, test and implement the mechanics themselves. They got rid of Ruin disabling after a kill and as you said they dumpstered that proposal. Probably it'll be modders that do this work and then in 2028 BHVR will copy their work and bring it to live.
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I won't know until I spend my 9000 shards and try them out myself. I didn't play the PTB.
I don't have high expectations. I might just get my adept and go back to playing Billy and Legion.
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The first paragraph doesn't really respond to anything. Something being a mix of wins and losses goes hand in hand with the idea of both sides having a chance to win. If anything, tunneling works against that rationale as a killer who tunnels takes it out of the hands of most of the survivors and puts it solely in the hands of the tunneled target.
I'm all for both sides having a chance to win which is one of the reasons I really want them to address tunneling.
The 'every match' is difficult given the extreme randomness of match ups that exist in DbD, which is a deeper topic than this thread.
Well sometimes tunneling is a comeback mechanic for killers, so it's a nuanced problem, making tunneling a very hard problem to address. Hence the massive grey area I mentioned earlier.
There's a reason keeping new survivors around has been difficult, and tunneling is one of the primary reasons.
This isn't anything new. DbD has always had a player retention problem. New players join with new licenses and leave when the novelty and/or cakes run out. Who's to say tunneling is more to blame now than any of the other multitude of problems this game has.
I'm not really sure what we're discussing here anymore.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109469#Comment_4109469
In case 1 clearly tunneling from the start is bad and in case 2 tunneling from the start might be necessary, especially if you're not on your best killer with a less than ideal map.Any time a discussion like this comes up, necessary starts getting used. What people mean by necessary is 'to win'. Except that's a bad way to approach it because the killer experience should be a mix of wins and losses.
When we look at your example lobbies, multiple game elements could apply. I could argue infinites never should have been taken out because the lobby might be baby soloq. Except that would be a bad standard. The focus should be on an overall healthier game and the community recognizes it for discussing other game elements, but tunneling seems to be an exception.
How is the game supposed to be able to tell the difference?It doesn't need to. Stronger anti-tunnel perks, the anti-tunnel update idea from last year, either of those would work. My preference would be revisiting the way they approached anti-tunnel, which had some good ideas but BHVR, like they frequently do, went way, way overboard.
Just because "the killer experience should be a mix of wins and losses" doesn't mean they should be put into entirely hopeless matches. It is a game and in any given match each side should have at least some chance to win. Every match. One side should not be in an entirely hopeless match for the other side's entertainment. A lot of players would go looking for other games to play if they keep getting hopeless matches.
Strong anti-tunneling tools are already available to survivors like basekit BT, DS, OTR and Shoulder the Burden, etc.
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Honestly, I don't mind getting tunneled. I can hold my own and even if I don't I am almost always SoloQing so I can move on the next match quickly without a second thought. I got thousands of anniversary cakes so not getting value out of one here and there doesn't bother me.
I don't like when I see my teammates getting tunneled and try to help when I can.
If the killer isn't having fun that's not my problem. I hope they has fun in their next match but I am not going out of my way to make their game fun unless there is snoot-booping involved.
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@Thirteen said:
Brown addons still provide a BP bonus, I do not see why they got rid of it for perks.
I can agree with you on Distressing as for most killers it is trading a disadvantage for a BP bonus just like all the brown addons do.
But for Barbecue & Chili, We're Gonna Live Forever and Hex: Thrill of the Hunt they were advantageous perks with a BP bonus stacked on top.
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@Thirteen said:
The only wincon in this game should be 4k or 3k 1 hatch (before all gens are finished).
Why would you define a 3K with a gate escape with all gens done as not a win for the killer and a loss for the survivor team?
Especially for a killer with no gen slowdowns and/or an Endgame build?
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I almost never dodge. Only seeing a known cheater, an easily identifiable cheater (i.e. Legacy cosmetics on a new Steam profile), awful usernames, awful stuff in the chat or an urgent IRL problem makes me dodge a lobby.
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@HexSlugged said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109453#Comment_4109453
If there is any accuracy to my memory it may have been during the previous mmr system before the one we have now. It was a long time ago, ive played off and on for 10 years.
But thats how i had based my internal win/loss as when i was playing anyways
The previous MMR system was the Emblem system and rank (now grades) were our actual ranks and not just used to calculate out monthly BP bonuses. Sorry but it seems like your memory is entirely inaccurate here.
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@Firellius
That's kinda the exact problem I'm pointing at. You're not engaging with the concept, you're ruling it out based on a state where it isn't implemented.You still have yet to put anything forward that could be defined as a concept. So what am I not engaging with?
Do you want to delete Endurance and buff DS? Endurance has been proven to be a necessary mechanic ever since Borrowed Time was introduced. So if there was no Endurance for someone recently unhooked but basekit DS (I'm assuming DS has to be basekit as removing basekit BT without compensation would just be a huge survivor nerf) then the correct play for the killer is to always slug them and the go for the rescuer, which would just be massive free pressure because another survivor has to get off their gen to come pick them up. In what currently is the trade scenario where the killer hits the survivor before and after they unhook would turn into something worse than a trade scenario where the correct play for the killer would be to slug the unhooker, down the recently unhooked, leave them slugged and put the rescuer on the hook. Then unless they have enormous pressure and many killers would proxy camp in this position. Just eating the DS stun becomes a really unappealing option since you want it to 5+ seconds.
I don't see any way that this would be an improvement to the game. It would lead to more slugging and camping.
Or do you have something in your head that you have yet to post that would make this "concept" even remotely tenable?
@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109417#Comment_4109417
We can see cases where it actually is necessary to tunnel from the get go, in comp.Except this is a viable strategy in comp because the killer knows whether the survivors have anti-tunnel or not. When they do unrestricted match ups tunneling is usually not done because it becomes a much weaker strategy against strong survivors with unlimited perks.
My point is that there is no way for the game to define when tunneling is bad and should be punished or restricted and when its necessary. Comp is just an easy extreme example.
Take 2 lobbies:
- Baby Dwight, Meg, Claudette and Jake with no items.
- 4 SoloQ survivors you've played before, know they are good all with items.
In case 1 clearly tunneling from the start is bad and in case 2 tunneling from the start might be necessary, especially if you're not on your best killer with a less than ideal map.
How is the game supposed to be able to tell the difference?
If it was a a simple black and white issue like 3+ gens tunneling bad & <3 gens left tunneling acceptable then it would be coded into the game. But instead it's all just a huge murky, undefinable (and therefore uncodeable) grey zone.
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@HexSlugged said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109426#Comment_4109426
i could be imagining things but i feel like i remember several years ago a mod stating that the game considered wins to be above 2k, 2k a draw and less a loss. Perhaps for mmr reasons at the time.
I don't recall ever hearing that. I do recall hearing that matches are just 4 1v1s as far as MMR is concerned.
- If a killer kills a survivor, the killer's MMR goes up and the survivors MMR goes down.
- If a survivor escapes through a gate, the survivor's MMR goes up and the killer's MMR goes down.
- Hatch escapes don't change either players' MMR.
- Abandons cancel out these changes in all circumstances.
Of course, I could be wrong, but I don't recall hearing anything refuting this.
But if this is how it works then BHVR has never needed to track win rate as an evaluation of how an entire match played out. This system can create games where a killer could get a 2K and technically "win" (gain MMR) where 2 survivors die, 1 escapes out a gate and 1 takes hatch or abandons but never would a 2K be a killer "loss" where the killer loses MMR. Assuming a fixed and equal value for kills and escapes.
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Having a win rate stat would require them actually defining what a win is, which they have never done. I don't think they want to risk hurting a player's feelings by reveling to them a low win rate. They can't even tell us the Entity is displeased.
@HexSlugged said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109402#Comment_4109402
as far as i am aware that is BHVRs official stance
Where have they stated their official stance?
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Sometimes I dont understand why I take the time to write posts. I even wrote in my very first post that I am not talking about the tunneling which is happening because the Killer would lose the game otherwise. I mean, aside from the fact that we should ignore Comp when it comes to public maches, what do you want me to say? I try, but if you ignore certain points, I dont know anymore. But, again: I am NOT talking about Killers tunneling because they are close to losing and have no other way to win. Survivors usually DONT complain about those. I know that some people twist it like that to have somewhat of an argument, but it is not the truth. I am talking about Killers who go into the game to tunnel and slug from the start.
The biggest problem with DbD is that it has never had the ability to tell the difference between unnecessary tunneling from the get go and necessary tunneling. We can see cases where it actually is necessary to tunnel from the get go, in comp. So where do they draw the line? How can they program the game to know the difference? These are questions with no easy answers. We can't just ignore comp because we can't say that comp style matches don't happen in public DbD matches. The game that ended Momo_Seventh's Blight streak is an example of a comp style public match.
As for your changes to Trapper, Ghostface and Pig… I apologize for asking. I think your killer changes are fine, but this isn't the thread for that discussion.
@TicTac said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109164#Comment_4109164
But is it really that simple to change maps for a balanced experience?
Main problem is the mmr or more like the skill involved. A bad survivor against a bad Legion needs more pallets than a good survivor against a good Legion.
Then theres perks, items and addons. You could say that everyone can freely decide to not bring the strongest stuff and if they do, its their problem. So the map strength shouldnt take it into account. But with that reasoning you are also free to pick a stronger killer. Example: a legion with a normal build and pallet shredder legion who just wants to get rid of all pallets.
Lastly you would need to change it for every killer. Groups are not that easy. Jason and Billy have both good mobility, but Billy struggles a lot more with Lerys. You would even need to take the tiles into account. For Trickster and other ranged killer it matters if the loop is short and you can throw over it.
Dont get me wrong: it would be really nice, but it takes a lot of work.
It's just an interesting idea. They could level the playing field by leveling the playing field. Addons like Iridescent Button throw a brutal wrinkle in the idea.
But I do think that having all maps enabled all the time generating the same way for all killers is kind of outdated now that we have so many maps and so many killers, none of which are actually well-balanced, especially now that map offerings have been dumpstered. Scratched Mirror Myers used to be one of my go to builds to play but I haven't even played him a single time since his rework because I know most of the time I'd load into a map where I'm not going to have fun.
You're right it would take a lot of work, work that BHVR most likely won't do.
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109323#Comment_4109323
Yeah, thanks, you're still arguing from some spread position where you're using the current game state to argue against an entirely new one. Without Endurance, DS cannot be weaponised. It doesn't matter that DS can be weaponised now if in the new game state it can't.
I'm using the current state of the game versus some hazy imaginary new game state you haven't bothered to identify or quantify. All you said was "Focus on DS as a solution, rather than Endurance."
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109281#Comment_4109281
While I personally don't have too much of an issue with the toggle, I do think this argument is a bit strange, I hope you don't mind me jumping in to ask you a few things.
Namely, I'm curious why the data for players who have it disabled needs to come from after the system was added. BHVR have all those stats for the current patch, before this system was added, why can't they use that as the comparison point for games with the system enabled?
It's also not at all unreasonable to point out that if even one person disables the system, that's going to affect the value of the data you get, right?Say you have the system enabled and ping that you're going for the unhook, but the one person who disabled the system thinks they're in the best position to go for it. That otherwise very useful callout is now worthless because the person who needed to hear it opted out of the system from minute one and caused that immediate inefficiency.
Now, personally, I think the toggle being opt out means most players will keep it enabled even if they don't actively use it, meaning they still benefit passively from others using it and the data on its usefulness will still be fairly accurate overall, but I do think we need to acknowledge that the system being turned off by even one person harms the accuracy of the data for those matches.
Judging by what's been announced, it's very likely that this chat intent wheel is going to drop with a patch that is going to include a meta shakeup where 40 perks are going to be changing at the same time. So comparisons of games before and after the patch for the efficacy of the chat wheel won't be very useful.
I agree with you that the feature being opt out will mean that most players (99%+ I'd predict) will leave it on unless it's annoying, abuseable or not useful enough. If 90% or more of players leave it on I think there'd be grounds for removing the toggle. But it appears to me that people like @random1543 and @CrypticGirl are assuming that a large fraction of players will reject the feature out of hand and turn it off without even trying it and I very much doubt that that's actually going to happen.
Over the years I've seen BHVR launch so many ideas into the live game undercooked and sometimes broken, so I am all for a toggle until the system is proven. If the system launches and it's fine and 90%+ leave it on even if only 50% actually use the wheel then get rid of the toggle. It could be as little as 6 weeks. I don't think that's unreasonable.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109321#Comment_4109321
Anyone coming at me with 'DS can be weaponised with a forced locker grab' is being horrendously disingenuous at best to start with, anyway.
Regardless of your opinion DS is not just an anti-tunnel perk and has been weaponized in the past and continues to be weaponized, especially against newer players or the weaker killers on the roster. It is a general perk now with an already very high usage rate and a long enough stun for someone to be able to easily make it to another pallet thanks to the pallet density changes against basically every killer except Blight or Ghoul. It simply does not need a 5 second stun or any other buffs.
Anyway, I doubt I can change your mind on anything so why bother.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109258#Comment_4109258
Good survivors know how to force grabs at lockers
Oh, do enlighten me! This one should be good!
Pray tell, how does someone force a locker grab, hm? What situation is there where a killer is -forced- to go after a survivor that is taking himself out of the game, run up to their locker, and press interact?
'Cause they're sure as hell not bodyblocking from the locker, are they?
The only reason DS is currently a potential problem is because of Endurance. Someone bodyblocks with that, you can normally punish them by chasing them, but DS goes against that.
Without Endurance, though, if they try to bodyblock, they get slugged, which is extremely costly to the survivors.
Provided, of course, you don't let yourself get baited into picking them up. Which I understand is a problem that you specifically seem to be having, since you struggle to stop yourself from tunnelling into obvious DS bait.
Average kill rates are already below the 60% target
As evidenced by? Majority of players here have shown KRs well above, and every time BHVR shows stats (deflated by excluding games with disconnects) the KRs have been well above target.
If BHVR took your ludicrous suggestion of inverting co-op repair speed penalties 3 survivors would be able to pound out a gen from zero to done in under 24 seconds instead of the ~43s we have now.
Ah, I see you have run a number crunch without having any actual numbers.
Remember where I said this?
make gens slower when solo'd
What gave you the impression we'd still be looking at 90 charge gens?
Perhaps you should consider the outlined principle of the idea before flying off the handle with wild guesstimations.
If you can't carry on a respectful conversation then I don't see the need to have a discussion with you.
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@SkeletalElite said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109312#Comment_4109312
I think loading screen issues are rare enough now that the DC penalty can be enabled for loading screen disconnects. In the past it was a bad idea because of legit crashes on loading but those are pretty rare now and since you get 1 "grace DC" it should very rarely ever be a real issue to have it enabled.
Unfortunately they can't tell the difference between a loading screen game crash or someone using the Task Manager to shut down the game (or powering down a console). They might never penalize that and they should never need to, as currently there is no reason to ditch on the loading screen now that map offerings are nerfed and hidden. So why give players a reason to DC on the loading screen by showing the builds there?
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@SkeletalElite said:
They should display during the pan in and during the loading screen as well.
I don't think perks should show during the loading screen because players can shut down the game without penalty before the game loads in. If some survivors see No Mither or green perks or whatever they shut the game down and everyone else gets sent back to lobby.
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@random1543 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109270#Comment_4109270
but needs to be tested without a toggle or different ques, it will never get the chance to be a tested and proven feature if half the player base just disable it day one and get qued with people who want to use it. I feel like that is more logical.
Right now the toggle is going to be a Uncontrolled variable in the testing,
I think it should be a controlled one so comm wheel can have full potential hence mainly wanting the split ques
so we will have to agree to disagree. 🤝If there is no toggle, BHVR cannot reliably and directly measure the acceptance and rejection of the feature.
Also they will only have be able to measure:- Games where the feature is enabled for everyone.
- Performance of players with the feature enabled.
And they'd have nothing to compare it to aside from games from before the feature was introduced.
If there is a toggle, BHVR can directly measure the usage rate of the feature and they'll be able to directly in the same timeframe compare:
- Games where the feature is enabled for everyone.
- Games where some players have it enabled and some do not.
- Games where the feature is disabled for everyone.
And also compare:
- Performance of players with the feature enabled.
- Performance of players with the feature disabled.
Now can you see how having a toggle would lead to better data to inform their decisions rather than not having a toggle?
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@cammoking123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109265#Comment_4109265
The que times speak for themself. They aren't bringing in enough new players. Bringing in licensed characters does give them the occasional stimi, but we see that doesn't last long.
If that's the case how come we didn't have problems with queue times 3 years ago when we had half the players we do now?
DbD is literally (not figuratively) riding its highest player count ever. We can see it on Steam Charts.
Do you think that queue times can't be affected by anything other than player count?
Or perhaps Play While You Wait, a problem in the code, pervasive tunneling/slugging, matchmaking or some other unseen variable could be having an effect?