ForTheEntity
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109469#Comment_4109469
In case 1 clearly tunneling from the start is bad and in case 2 tunneling from the start might be necessary, especially if you're not on your best killer with a less than ideal map.Any time a discussion like this comes up, necessary starts getting used. What people mean by necessary is 'to win'. Except that's a bad way to approach it because the killer experience should be a mix of wins and losses.
When we look at your example lobbies, multiple game elements could apply. I could argue infinites never should have been taken out because the lobby might be baby soloq. Except that would be a bad standard. The focus should be on an overall healthier game and the community recognizes it for discussing other game elements, but tunneling seems to be an exception.
How is the game supposed to be able to tell the difference?It doesn't need to. Stronger anti-tunnel perks, the anti-tunnel update idea from last year, either of those would work. My preference would be revisiting the way they approached anti-tunnel, which had some good ideas but BHVR, like they frequently do, went way, way overboard.
Just because "the killer experience should be a mix of wins and losses" doesn't mean they should be put into entirely hopeless matches. It is a game and in any given match each side should have at least some chance to win. Every match. One side should not be in an entirely hopeless match for the other side's entertainment. A lot of players would go looking for other games to play if they keep getting hopeless matches.
Strong anti-tunneling tools are already available to survivors like basekit BT, DS, OTR and Shoulder the Burden, etc.
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Honestly, I don't mind getting tunneled. I can hold my own and even if I don't I am almost always SoloQing so I can move on the next match quickly without a second thought. I got thousands of anniversary cakes so not getting value out of one here and there doesn't bother me.
I don't like when I see my teammates getting tunneled and try to help when I can.
If the killer isn't having fun that's not my problem. I hope they has fun in their next match but I am not going out of my way to make their game fun unless there is snoot-booping involved.
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@Thirteen said:
Brown addons still provide a BP bonus, I do not see why they got rid of it for perks.
I can agree with you on Distressing as for most killers it is trading a disadvantage for a BP bonus just like all the brown addons do.
But for Barbecue & Chili, We're Gonna Live Forever and Hex: Thrill of the Hunt they were advantageous perks with a BP bonus stacked on top.
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@Thirteen said:
The only wincon in this game should be 4k or 3k 1 hatch (before all gens are finished).
Why would you define a 3K with a gate escape with all gens done as not a win for the killer and a loss for the survivor team?
Especially for a killer with no gen slowdowns and/or an Endgame build?
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I almost never dodge. Only seeing a known cheater, an easily identifiable cheater (i.e. Legacy cosmetics on a new Steam profile), awful usernames, awful stuff in the chat or an urgent IRL problem makes me dodge a lobby.
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@HexSlugged said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109453#Comment_4109453
If there is any accuracy to my memory it may have been during the previous mmr system before the one we have now. It was a long time ago, ive played off and on for 10 years.
But thats how i had based my internal win/loss as when i was playing anyways
The previous MMR system was the Emblem system and rank (now grades) were our actual ranks and not just used to calculate out monthly BP bonuses. Sorry but it seems like your memory is entirely inaccurate here.
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@Firellius
That's kinda the exact problem I'm pointing at. You're not engaging with the concept, you're ruling it out based on a state where it isn't implemented.You still have yet to put anything forward that could be defined as a concept. So what am I not engaging with?
Do you want to delete Endurance and buff DS? Endurance has been proven to be a necessary mechanic ever since Borrowed Time was introduced. So if there was no Endurance for someone recently unhooked but basekit DS (I'm assuming DS has to be basekit as removing basekit BT without compensation would just be a huge survivor nerf) then the correct play for the killer is to always slug them and the go for the rescuer, which would just be massive free pressure because another survivor has to get off their gen to come pick them up. In what currently is the trade scenario where the killer hits the survivor before and after they unhook would turn into something worse than a trade scenario where the correct play for the killer would be to slug the unhooker, down the recently unhooked, leave them slugged and put the rescuer on the hook. Then unless they have enormous pressure and many killers would proxy camp in this position. Just eating the DS stun becomes a really unappealing option since you want it to 5+ seconds.
I don't see any way that this would be an improvement to the game. It would lead to more slugging and camping.
Or do you have something in your head that you have yet to post that would make this "concept" even remotely tenable?
@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109417#Comment_4109417
We can see cases where it actually is necessary to tunnel from the get go, in comp.Except this is a viable strategy in comp because the killer knows whether the survivors have anti-tunnel or not. When they do unrestricted match ups tunneling is usually not done because it becomes a much weaker strategy against strong survivors with unlimited perks.
My point is that there is no way for the game to define when tunneling is bad and should be punished or restricted and when its necessary. Comp is just an easy extreme example.
Take 2 lobbies:
- Baby Dwight, Meg, Claudette and Jake with no items.
- 4 SoloQ survivors you've played before, know they are good all with items.
In case 1 clearly tunneling from the start is bad and in case 2 tunneling from the start might be necessary, especially if you're not on your best killer with a less than ideal map.
How is the game supposed to be able to tell the difference?
If it was a a simple black and white issue like 3+ gens tunneling bad & <3 gens left tunneling acceptable then it would be coded into the game. But instead it's all just a huge murky, undefinable (and therefore uncodeable) grey zone.
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@HexSlugged said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109426#Comment_4109426
i could be imagining things but i feel like i remember several years ago a mod stating that the game considered wins to be above 2k, 2k a draw and less a loss. Perhaps for mmr reasons at the time.
I don't recall ever hearing that. I do recall hearing that matches are just 4 1v1s as far as MMR is concerned.
- If a killer kills a survivor, the killer's MMR goes up and the survivors MMR goes down.
- If a survivor escapes through a gate, the survivor's MMR goes up and the killer's MMR goes down.
- Hatch escapes don't change either players' MMR.
- Abandons cancel out these changes in all circumstances.
Of course, I could be wrong, but I don't recall hearing anything refuting this.
But if this is how it works then BHVR has never needed to track win rate as an evaluation of how an entire match played out. This system can create games where a killer could get a 2K and technically "win" (gain MMR) where 2 survivors die, 1 escapes out a gate and 1 takes hatch or abandons but never would a 2K be a killer "loss" where the killer loses MMR. Assuming a fixed and equal value for kills and escapes.
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Having a win rate stat would require them actually defining what a win is, which they have never done. I don't think they want to risk hurting a player's feelings by reveling to them a low win rate. They can't even tell us the Entity is displeased.
@HexSlugged said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109402#Comment_4109402
as far as i am aware that is BHVRs official stance
Where have they stated their official stance?
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Sometimes I dont understand why I take the time to write posts. I even wrote in my very first post that I am not talking about the tunneling which is happening because the Killer would lose the game otherwise. I mean, aside from the fact that we should ignore Comp when it comes to public maches, what do you want me to say? I try, but if you ignore certain points, I dont know anymore. But, again: I am NOT talking about Killers tunneling because they are close to losing and have no other way to win. Survivors usually DONT complain about those. I know that some people twist it like that to have somewhat of an argument, but it is not the truth. I am talking about Killers who go into the game to tunnel and slug from the start.
The biggest problem with DbD is that it has never had the ability to tell the difference between unnecessary tunneling from the get go and necessary tunneling. We can see cases where it actually is necessary to tunnel from the get go, in comp. So where do they draw the line? How can they program the game to know the difference? These are questions with no easy answers. We can't just ignore comp because we can't say that comp style matches don't happen in public DbD matches. The game that ended Momo_Seventh's Blight streak is an example of a comp style public match.
As for your changes to Trapper, Ghostface and Pig… I apologize for asking. I think your killer changes are fine, but this isn't the thread for that discussion.
@TicTac said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109164#Comment_4109164
But is it really that simple to change maps for a balanced experience?
Main problem is the mmr or more like the skill involved. A bad survivor against a bad Legion needs more pallets than a good survivor against a good Legion.
Then theres perks, items and addons. You could say that everyone can freely decide to not bring the strongest stuff and if they do, its their problem. So the map strength shouldnt take it into account. But with that reasoning you are also free to pick a stronger killer. Example: a legion with a normal build and pallet shredder legion who just wants to get rid of all pallets.
Lastly you would need to change it for every killer. Groups are not that easy. Jason and Billy have both good mobility, but Billy struggles a lot more with Lerys. You would even need to take the tiles into account. For Trickster and other ranged killer it matters if the loop is short and you can throw over it.
Dont get me wrong: it would be really nice, but it takes a lot of work.
It's just an interesting idea. They could level the playing field by leveling the playing field. Addons like Iridescent Button throw a brutal wrinkle in the idea.
But I do think that having all maps enabled all the time generating the same way for all killers is kind of outdated now that we have so many maps and so many killers, none of which are actually well-balanced, especially now that map offerings have been dumpstered. Scratched Mirror Myers used to be one of my go to builds to play but I haven't even played him a single time since his rework because I know most of the time I'd load into a map where I'm not going to have fun.
You're right it would take a lot of work, work that BHVR most likely won't do.
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109323#Comment_4109323
Yeah, thanks, you're still arguing from some spread position where you're using the current game state to argue against an entirely new one. Without Endurance, DS cannot be weaponised. It doesn't matter that DS can be weaponised now if in the new game state it can't.
I'm using the current state of the game versus some hazy imaginary new game state you haven't bothered to identify or quantify. All you said was "Focus on DS as a solution, rather than Endurance."
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109281#Comment_4109281
While I personally don't have too much of an issue with the toggle, I do think this argument is a bit strange, I hope you don't mind me jumping in to ask you a few things.
Namely, I'm curious why the data for players who have it disabled needs to come from after the system was added. BHVR have all those stats for the current patch, before this system was added, why can't they use that as the comparison point for games with the system enabled?
It's also not at all unreasonable to point out that if even one person disables the system, that's going to affect the value of the data you get, right?Say you have the system enabled and ping that you're going for the unhook, but the one person who disabled the system thinks they're in the best position to go for it. That otherwise very useful callout is now worthless because the person who needed to hear it opted out of the system from minute one and caused that immediate inefficiency.
Now, personally, I think the toggle being opt out means most players will keep it enabled even if they don't actively use it, meaning they still benefit passively from others using it and the data on its usefulness will still be fairly accurate overall, but I do think we need to acknowledge that the system being turned off by even one person harms the accuracy of the data for those matches.
Judging by what's been announced, it's very likely that this chat intent wheel is going to drop with a patch that is going to include a meta shakeup where 40 perks are going to be changing at the same time. So comparisons of games before and after the patch for the efficacy of the chat wheel won't be very useful.
I agree with you that the feature being opt out will mean that most players (99%+ I'd predict) will leave it on unless it's annoying, abuseable or not useful enough. If 90% or more of players leave it on I think there'd be grounds for removing the toggle. But it appears to me that people like @random1543 and @CrypticGirl are assuming that a large fraction of players will reject the feature out of hand and turn it off without even trying it and I very much doubt that that's actually going to happen.
Over the years I've seen BHVR launch so many ideas into the live game undercooked and sometimes broken, so I am all for a toggle until the system is proven. If the system launches and it's fine and 90%+ leave it on even if only 50% actually use the wheel then get rid of the toggle. It could be as little as 6 weeks. I don't think that's unreasonable.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109321#Comment_4109321
Anyone coming at me with 'DS can be weaponised with a forced locker grab' is being horrendously disingenuous at best to start with, anyway.
Regardless of your opinion DS is not just an anti-tunnel perk and has been weaponized in the past and continues to be weaponized, especially against newer players or the weaker killers on the roster. It is a general perk now with an already very high usage rate and a long enough stun for someone to be able to easily make it to another pallet thanks to the pallet density changes against basically every killer except Blight or Ghoul. It simply does not need a 5 second stun or any other buffs.
Anyway, I doubt I can change your mind on anything so why bother.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109258#Comment_4109258
Good survivors know how to force grabs at lockers
Oh, do enlighten me! This one should be good!
Pray tell, how does someone force a locker grab, hm? What situation is there where a killer is -forced- to go after a survivor that is taking himself out of the game, run up to their locker, and press interact?
'Cause they're sure as hell not bodyblocking from the locker, are they?
The only reason DS is currently a potential problem is because of Endurance. Someone bodyblocks with that, you can normally punish them by chasing them, but DS goes against that.
Without Endurance, though, if they try to bodyblock, they get slugged, which is extremely costly to the survivors.
Provided, of course, you don't let yourself get baited into picking them up. Which I understand is a problem that you specifically seem to be having, since you struggle to stop yourself from tunnelling into obvious DS bait.
Average kill rates are already below the 60% target
As evidenced by? Majority of players here have shown KRs well above, and every time BHVR shows stats (deflated by excluding games with disconnects) the KRs have been well above target.
If BHVR took your ludicrous suggestion of inverting co-op repair speed penalties 3 survivors would be able to pound out a gen from zero to done in under 24 seconds instead of the ~43s we have now.
Ah, I see you have run a number crunch without having any actual numbers.
Remember where I said this?
make gens slower when solo'd
What gave you the impression we'd still be looking at 90 charge gens?
Perhaps you should consider the outlined principle of the idea before flying off the handle with wild guesstimations.
If you can't carry on a respectful conversation then I don't see the need to have a discussion with you.
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@SkeletalElite said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109312#Comment_4109312
I think loading screen issues are rare enough now that the DC penalty can be enabled for loading screen disconnects. In the past it was a bad idea because of legit crashes on loading but those are pretty rare now and since you get 1 "grace DC" it should very rarely ever be a real issue to have it enabled.
Unfortunately they can't tell the difference between a loading screen game crash or someone using the Task Manager to shut down the game (or powering down a console). They might never penalize that and they should never need to, as currently there is no reason to ditch on the loading screen now that map offerings are nerfed and hidden. So why give players a reason to DC on the loading screen by showing the builds there?
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@SkeletalElite said:
They should display during the pan in and during the loading screen as well.
I don't think perks should show during the loading screen because players can shut down the game without penalty before the game loads in. If some survivors see No Mither or green perks or whatever they shut the game down and everyone else gets sent back to lobby.
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@random1543 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109270#Comment_4109270
but needs to be tested without a toggle or different ques, it will never get the chance to be a tested and proven feature if half the player base just disable it day one and get qued with people who want to use it. I feel like that is more logical.
Right now the toggle is going to be a Uncontrolled variable in the testing,
I think it should be a controlled one so comm wheel can have full potential hence mainly wanting the split ques
so we will have to agree to disagree. 🤝If there is no toggle, BHVR cannot reliably and directly measure the acceptance and rejection of the feature.
Also they will only have be able to measure:- Games where the feature is enabled for everyone.
- Performance of players with the feature enabled.
And they'd have nothing to compare it to aside from games from before the feature was introduced.
If there is a toggle, BHVR can directly measure the usage rate of the feature and they'll be able to directly in the same timeframe compare:
- Games where the feature is enabled for everyone.
- Games where some players have it enabled and some do not.
- Games where the feature is disabled for everyone.
And also compare:
- Performance of players with the feature enabled.
- Performance of players with the feature disabled.
Now can you see how having a toggle would lead to better data to inform their decisions rather than not having a toggle?
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@cammoking123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109265#Comment_4109265
The que times speak for themself. They aren't bringing in enough new players. Bringing in licensed characters does give them the occasional stimi, but we see that doesn't last long.
If that's the case how come we didn't have problems with queue times 3 years ago when we had half the players we do now?
DbD is literally (not figuratively) riding its highest player count ever. We can see it on Steam Charts.
Do you think that queue times can't be affected by anything other than player count?
Or perhaps Play While You Wait, a problem in the code, pervasive tunneling/slugging, matchmaking or some other unseen variable could be having an effect? -
@random1543 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109252#Comment_4109252
But we have no way to prove it works if people are just disabling it and the ques are not split so we can get the data on how it actually effect the average match.
Usage stat is not useful if people turn it off day one and never engage with it, that shows nothing but unwillingness to engage with the system at all.
At least if ques where split, devs could see clearly in the data where improvements, if any where made in comm wheel lobbies.
I can give reasons to your question but that question does not take away from points raised in this form, but to be clear not here to argue weather it would work as stated it defiantly wont work if we dont give it a chance too just want to answer your question.
"going for unhook" is a really good callout because alot of times in solo 2 people will be going to save assuming the other person is afk or they may be sitting right next to hook on gen making progess as someone just sits on hook but someone runs from other side of map not realizing because HUD does not show that nuance.
"repair" can be used on hook when team mates may be all bundling to try and save you, showing you care more about gen progress over being saved quickly, I would prefer it say "focus on gen repairs" tho as its more clear what is wanting to be done like it was worded in dbd mobile.
"chasing me" are good for stealth killers, a wraith running after you cloaked does not trigger the HUD chase, would also like to see "killer is looking for new target" like they had in dbd mobile
Ones like healing do need to be adjusted to something like "focus on healing" as healing we know when people are doing that.
Again not here to argue if it WILL do that, because we wont know if people have it disabled right of bat and are put with people who do want to be testing limits of the system.Yawn. We're going in circles.
Until it's tested and proven feature it needs to have a simple toggle. That cannot be denied logically.
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@cammoking123 said:
Lobby dodging is not what's creating 30 minutes ques. People need to stop trying to point the finger and just admit the game has a serious shortage of players. This is what happens when you let content creators with terrible takes do the balancing.
DbD is still riding high from its greatest player peak ever from the Jason release. There is no shortage of players so something else has to explain the queue times.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109164#Comment_4109164
How would you change tunneling without wrecking the game?
Focus on DS as a solution, rather than Endurance. DS works as a deterrent if the stun is long enough, meaning it needs to go back to 5 seconds or higher. Since DS requires the killer's input to function, it cannot be 'used offensively', since trying to bodyblock with it will result in the survivor becoming incapacitated, which hinders them more than the killer.
Then check if the killrates actually drop below target rates, because we have no way of knowing if they will or not.
If they do, first change on the docket is to invert the co-op repair speed penalty and make gens slower when solo'd and faster when there's at least three survivors on one gen. This makes it so that the safest way of doing gens (Split up) is not also the fastest way, leaving survivors the choice of either playing it fast or safe, not both at the same time.
This would also increase the pressure killers get out of incapacitations, since the survivor is worth more than just their own repair speed; they can't give a co-op bonus if they're not on a gen.
If that's not enough, we can cross that bridge when we get to it.
No. We already dealt with weaponized DS in the past we don't need to revisit that. Good survivors know how to force grabs at lockers and windows so they get DS value. DS is in a perfectly fine place already.
Average kill rates are already below the 60% target so we don't need to buff genrushing with co-op speed bonuses. If BHVR took your ludicrous suggestion of inverting co-op repair speed penalties 3 survivors would be able to pound out a gen from zero to done in under 24 seconds instead of the ~43s we have now. And that would be basekit without survivors bringing single gen perk or toolbox. Killers would have to run full regression builds and slug and/or tunnel at 5 gens just to have a chance at winning. What an absolute nightmare that would be.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109193#Comment_4109193
As I have said multiple times, allowing a toggle option will defeat the purpose of having it in the first place. Why even add this system if they're going to allow people to opt out of it? I haven't seen an answer to that question either.
And as Random said, this could cause even more friction between players, particularly those who have the system enabled and those who don't. And we already have more than enough friction between players as it is.
@random1543 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109113#Comment_4109113
This is where ill disagree people should not be able to just turn it off in a setting hidden away in setting menu if they are gonna be put in my ques.
I find it curious that you are concerned about making people who want the comm wheeel off aggravated, But when its the comm wheel people being agravated by the non comm wheel people its ok?
This is why people want a middle ground and current system we got teased is too far in favour of people who dont want to engage with the system, letting them never have too with one click of a button forever.
If you dont like that middle ground lets go back to splitting ques idea as both sides would be non aggravated by the other.
Because the system is still unproven to be actually useful, not annoying and not abusable. Until that happens it should have a simple toggle.
SoloQ is bad enough as it is, we don't need to be annoyed by an as yet unproven system or having to do multiple actions to disable it at the start of every match. If after a period of at least 3 months the system has proven itself to be useful, unobtrusive and not abuseable then they can remove the toggle option.
Thankfully, BHVR appears to have already put the toggle in place as they'd rather have people playing DbD with it on or off rather than having players choose not to play survivor because they can't turn off a feature they don't like.
Also, usage stats are useful. It's a very easy way to directly measure if it is good or not.
Until there's a real answer to:
What do you see in what's been shared about this feature that is so good that it should be mandatory for players to use it?
There needs to be a toggle."A toggle defeats its purpose" is not enough.
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@dangersmymidd1ename said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109136#Comment_4109136
The only reason the items are shown to the killer is so the killer can adapt their build. A major, major advantage and an unfair one at that.
How is it unfair? The killer is outnumbered and should be able to adapt if they see 4 toolboxes, 4 flashlights or whatever.
But I'd be fine with the lobby being done away with altogether and going straight into matches without wasting up to a minute of our time before every match, but I am not high MMR and I don't change my build for anything on either side in the lobby.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109177#Comment_4109177
We have yet to see if it's actually good.
Which is exactly why we shouldn't allow a toggle. If everyone turns it off at the start, how are we going to know how good it is?
This feature will probably be on by default and if it's actually good people will use it or at least leave it on. If it isn't good or they just don't like it, they can turn it off without it being a hassle every game. What's the problem?
Again: What do you see in what's been shared about this feature that is so good that it should be mandatory for players to use it?
I've asked this question 3 times in this thread now and no one has even tried to answer it. It's all just "It ShOuLd Be MaNdAtOrY!" *foot stamping*
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Honestly? Why not?
These are all temporary game modifiers, so why not try crazy stuff?
Since the introduction of modifiers we have only gotten 4 different types outside of events. My Little Oni was the first one never to be repeated, Lights Out, Chaos Shuffle and 2v8. Why haven't they tried more things.
They could do "test" modifiers and put them up for a week and if they flop, whatever it's only a week and they never have to bring them back. If they're accepted or well-liked they could be extended and brought back.
I don't know why BHVR doesn't do this other than them running DbD on a what seems to be a skeleton dev team. They're never going to do this and will leave it to modders.
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@Angy_Quentin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109113#Comment_4109113
It's the only way forward for soloq. It should be a mandatory part of the game that should take effort to deactivate. Give me a reason why you should not want that information.
What do you see in what's been shared about this feature that is so good that it should be mandatory for players to use it?
We have yet to see if it's actually good. Looking at the options we have for the wheel it looks like the only use for it that isn't already done by the HUD will be signaling intent to go for a hook save or maybe spamming Help! when chasing a fellow survivor who never looks behind them for a heal/to heal them (I'd rather be able to throw a snowball). This feature doesn't come close to what voice comms can do where it's "I'm looping the killer at shack, I dropped shack pallet, she has 3 hatchets left."
Until the feature is proven to be a reasonable improvement over gameplay without it and not abuseable through months of testing on live servers it should have a single toggle. Just like how they changed the wiggle mechanic which was in beta for IIRC a year before they took away the option to use the old wiggle system, even though the old wiggle was a clear disadvantage as it always took longer to wiggle off due to not having skill checks.
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@TicTac said:
Its depends. For everyone the optimal length of a trial is subjective. I dont want 5min rounds, but everything over 15min can also be annoying. But everything depends on the different stages of the trial.
A normal long match is better than 4 fast gens + 15min trying to break a 3gen. Or in most trials the endgame should be short, but a long endgame can be fun if the match was short.
But for the game speed in general: gen speed is not the problem (not counting some combos), its chase speed. As soon as a chase takes too long (without the killer making big mistakes or the survivor playing really good), there isnt enough slowdown. In talking about things like: closing the distance, forcing a drop and breaking safe pallets, etc.
Thats not a general problem, there are killer which can quick enough downs. It would be great if every map would be automatically balanced depending on the killer, the skill of the players and even depending on the perks. But thats pretty diificult. So the easier solution is to choose a killer which matches the skill of the survivors (i know how dropping mains feels), accept that good and bad maps hopefully even out and that you should bring your best perks if you want to win. And if you get survivor who cant keep up, you kinda need to find a fun way to deal with that (like going for 8 hooks).
This is a great post. As a serial SoloQ I know my internal chronometer starts ticking really loud once a match has gone on too long and I reach a point where I'd rather be dead and the rest of my team be damned than keep competing in a gone-stale match. Often these are games where killers prioritize gen defense rather than engaging in chases.
@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109062#Comment_4109062
But keeping tunneling as it is is not the solution. This does not make the weak Killers any stronger and it does not make the strong Killers any less oppressive to go against.
Which is why there need to be changes to tunneling and slugging (which will not happen, Killer Mains made sure about that with mass hysteria) and Buffs to the weaker Killers. But general Buffs or Nerfs to mechanics will not help weak Killers in the slightest.
How would you change tunneling without wrecking the game?
We know by looking at comp matches that at that level tunneling is a very necessary mechanic in the game. Even in normal public matches if a group of 4 good survivors get a good map like Springwood against many killers it might be necessary for a killer to tunnel if they want to win. Anyone who's played killer any significant amount has been in a match where if they didn't tunnel at a certain point they were throwing the game.
Yes, hard tunneling at 5 gens is bad but how do you solve that problem without wrecking what is a necessary comeback mechanic for killers when 4 good survivors are still alive and only 1-2 gens are left?
@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109069#Comment_4109069
The 2 seconds cool down reduction is not going to help ghostface, I want strong hook incentives personally for not tunneling/slugging like wesker having a third dash for 30 seconds and this make it more fun for both sides (but the strongest killers having a small buff and being punished for doing this or just nerfing them with good hook incentives).
Now I am pretty sure you dont read my posts, because I even said that weaker Killers need Buffs. Not that they already got Buffs and those are enough, lol. But you can also twist my words to get something as an argument for you I guess.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109069#Comment_4109069
Should I talk about survivor mains hysteria? Both sides have their complaints and the anti-tunneling and anti-slugging updates were too punishing and it was abused a lot by survivors, the second one in the Krasue patch was better but killers got nothing as the blood lust is literally useless so that's why killers hated it.
I have not seen the Devs scrap multiple things due to Survivor complaints. Unless you count something like the Twins Rework, but I think everybody can agree that this was absolutely horrible what they did. But Killers now have made it happen at least 4 times that Things on Survivor got nerfed either shortly after they went live or before they went live. This did not happen with things on the Killer side.
Reducing amount of pallets will definitely help, maybe making different killers have less or more pallets on the map depending on how strong they are.See, this is why I think you dont really read. As I said, this will NOT help at all. If we reduce the number of Pallets, what do you think will happen? Do you think people will suddenly play their Ghostface or Demo? Or the Blight and Ghoul they play anyway which are even stronger then?
Adjusting the Pallets depending on how strong a Killer is is also nonsense. First of all, who determines that? If you remember the Devs made ratings for Killers at some point in the past, with Billy being easy and Wraith being intermediate in difficulty… But even then, the really strong Killers play around Pallets and a bunch more garbage Pallets will not change that.
But as I said, general Buffs or Nerfs are not helpful. It needs to be specific Buffs and Nerfs to Killers. Otherwise it is not possible.
We have a massive roster of extremely varied killers of quite unbalanced strengths. Why is it so out of line in your opinion that maps should still generate the same way for all killers all the time?
I think it would be much easier to make it so a few less pallets spawn and a bit more distance generates between loops for killers like Trapper, Ghostface and Pig because they are always a slow 4.6 m/s or slower and have to actually kick every pallet with the 2.7 second animation. More pallets should spawn for killers like Billy and Blight who have great mobility AND the ability to break pallets as fast as a wood chipper. And I don't think it has to be drastically more or less pallets it could be as little as -3 for the D tier killers and +3 for S tier.
Rebalancing map generations based on the killer played is much more feasible than reworking killers. How do you buff Trapper, Ghostface and Pig without completely changing their identities?
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@Wezqu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109131#Comment_4109131
You can already do that during the spin just hit tab and you can look at the perks while the spin is going.
Thanks for just responding to the title without reading the post.
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@Wyndsor said:
Killer lobby shopping is the first matchmaking issue that needs to be resolved.
Killers should not be able to see profiles, names, or cosmetics.
They should only be able to see a silhouette and the item.
Honestly I agree with this. But I think the ability for survivors to switch builds last second should be eliminated too.
But on the survivor side you think you should be able to see if the other survivors are using the chat wheel or not and be able to dodge based on that. Quite the double standard.
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@HexSlugged said:
i dont want perks showing in lobby, but i would like some point in time to have like 10 seconds to be able to view what perks are in play so im not having to take precious seconds at the start of the match to read perk descriptions. tho tbf i rarely care about other peoples perks.
I don't want them visible in the lobby either because it would lead to more lobby dodging and people would have a hard time getting David adepts done.
I know the spin at the start of the match isn't 10 seconds but it would give a chance to do a quick skim. I'd be looking for the perks that matter most like Deliverance, Background Player/Flashbang, We'll Make It, Head On, that sort of thing. The rest usually doesn't matter that much.
I don't take a good longer look at the perks until my first time on the hook, and that's only if I remember to. Spoiler: Usually I don't remember.
Edit. Damn it's already been moved to Feedback and Suggestions. May as well have not made the thread.
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At one point in 2023 I got severe killer anxiety and I had to change the way I played.
If I was trying to win and I was in a chase that was taking too long the anxiety would peak bad enough that I would have to stop playing mid-chase to calm down. I had bad hypertension at the time and might have been risking a stroke over a video game.
So now I go into my killer matches with a similar mindset that I go into survivor matches. I'm hoping to have some fun but the outcome of the match doesn't really matter to me. Games are just something to pass the time, winning isn't that important. Having fun is important.
If I am playing killer and I am in a chase where the survivor is taunting me, blinding me at every pallet or just looping me too well for too long I just leave the chase and look for better opportunities. Usually I'm playing Billy so the next survivor is just a chainsaw sprint away. If I am in a match where I am having a really rough go I'll just go for long chainsaw sprints or practice my power/farm deviousness if I am playing another killer. Once the last generator pops I'll open the gate and keeping practicing or go AFK until they leave, I don't give them the satisfaction and stack my own frustration by watching them teabag as I push them out. If I don't have the chatbox hidden (I usually don't) I click continue ASAP to get out of the post game screen to avoid crap in the chat.
I hope this helps.
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@random1543 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4108791#Comment_4108791
I think I would honestly be ok with that compromise as well.
Remove the hard disable of the system, but keep the mute individual players after you have loaded into the game, sure some people will just mute everyone at start of every match but i think some people will come around to trying it.
vs just having a option tucked away in setting you click once and never have to bother with it again.@Angy_Quentin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4108794#Comment_4108794
I think the individual mute option is a nice middle ground. It still requires proactive action every match to opt out.
It's not a nice middle ground if someone doesn't want to use a non-mandatory feature in a game they own they should be able to toggle it off once and be done with it instead of needing to toggle off 3 players at the start of every match. We don't need to aggravate that set of players at the start of every match as we know there are consequences to unnecessary aggravation in DbD.
I don't get this mindset of "Well you don't want to use the feature so we're going to punish you every game for it."
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My opinion on this has been the same on this for over 5 years now.
Until a real competitor arises. With the exception of Identity V which is just a mobile game that's been ported to PC and isn't sold on Steam, no game has cloned DbD's gameplay loop. Some competitors tied themselves to single franchises. Yes there are other asyms like VHS but they were very different from DbD.
I am still of the opinion that if someone, especially an AAA studio, cloned DbD's gameplay loop but did it with better code, better maps, better balancing, more frequent meta changes and better quality assurance they'd pull players from DbD. If it was good enough to retain those players it would be able to compete for licenses with DbD and maybe even pull licenses from DbD. Even if it didn't kill DbD (I doubt it would) just having competition would push BHVR to make DbD better at faster than glacial pace than we're currently getting.
But I've been waiting for so long that I am starting to resign myself that it might never happen and DbD is the best were going to get.
Without competition at least another 5 years, if not 10.
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While ping is a huge issue, there isn't anything BHVR can do besides add more servers and improve the net code. Unfortunately, they don't seem inclined to do that. They also can't tell the difference between someone with bad internet and someone manipulating their latency or VPNing. So it just is what it is.
I remember back when the game was peer to peer and we could see the killer's ping an I landed in a lobby as survivor where the killer had 1,700 ms ping. Dude had to be playing over a satellite connection or something. I stayed and played because I wanted to see what would happen. It was wild and I died.
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@JohnNemesisMan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109004#Comment_4109004
I am against going around saying that pwyw is bad because killer players are salty and use it to ruin survivor experience. That's just misleading and crossfires an argument into people who are just using it to play both roles as intended. I am not some pwyw defender, I just don't think people should reach and share the wrong conclusions antagonizes a group of people who just want to play the game.
"Aside from keeping players occupied while they are stuck in a queue, is there any other benefit to PWYW?"
You just answered yourself. pwyw was created to do exactly that, keep people busy as they wait their queue. It wasn't designed to do anything else more than that and neither it should.
"Do you have any logical reason to believe PWYW is having no effect on match quality or killer queue times?"
I just posted two times that all issues you pointed out pwyw was causing were things that already happened without the feature, and it wasn't anything new. Bad actors existed before pwyw was a thing, if anything, making the F2P for a limited amount of time allowed cheaters to go rabid. This is not a situation like that, its just a simple feature that lets someone who enjoys both roles play them seamlessly.
So you can't actually come up with any logical reason as to why PWYW wouldn't have an effect on match quality or queue times. 👋
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@JohnNemesisMan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4108992#Comment_4108992
"I disagree. I believe both match quality and killer queue times are affected by this and I have presented evidence as to why."
Your "evidence" is just pointing out things that happened way before the pwyw feature. It has no real correlation other than you pointing out possible bad actors who could be killer players because 'trust me bro'.
"Yes, this stuff happened before but it was very rare and now it's more often because someone who is a killer main who wants to kill 7 minutes until their killer queue time is up is less likely to take the survivor match as seriously as they should."
Rare? If it really were rare, the devs themselves wouldn't have to address the go-next problems by removing the option to die on hook. I don't know what to say other than don't think pwyw will bring about killer boogieman to ruin your matches disguised as survivors.
Okay. I get it. You like the PWYW feature. But that doesn't mean it's a good feature.
You've posted several times in this thread railing against people who are saying PWYW might be having negative effects but you haven't posted any valid defense of PWYW. Are you sure you're not arguing in bad faith?
Aside from keeping players occupied while they are stuck in a queue, is there any other benefit to PWYW?
Do you have any logical reason to believe PWYW is having no effect on match quality or killer queue times?
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My favorite charms are no charms at all, especially on survivor. They make you easier to spot and is just more crap for the game to render.
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@JohnNemesisMan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4108948#Comment_4108948
"I think the benefits of PWYW are questionable at best because completing matches quickly without escaping or helping your team is incentivized by "Complete Trials" quests and having a queue time of <10 minutes (worse if it's even shorter) also happen. […] So if you have a selfish player who doesn't care about anyone else's enjoyment of the match who decides to bring Slipp
ery Meat or a luck offering and/or let the killer catch them without much resistance it's already bad for the match."That has nothing to do with the pwyw feature, neither is it being enhanced by it. This sort of thing happened WAY before the system was ever in place. Its why the option to unhook the first state for free was removed to begin with, survivors using any means to throw away the match has been happening for years now and has nothing to do with the pwyw.
I disagree. I believe both match quality and killer queue times are affected by this and I have presented evidence as to why. Yes, this stuff happened before but it was very rare and now it's more often because someone who is a killer main who wants to kill 7 minutes until their killer queue time is up is less likely to take the survivor match as seriously as they should.
You haven't said anything to prove why it wouldn't have an effect.
Whatever. You're clearly close-minded on this topic and think PWYW is an innocent little angel so we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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@JohnNemesisMan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4108725#Comment_4108725
Its bad faith because what you're saying is deceptive and pushing the narrative that killer players are damaging the survivor experience even though there's absolutely no proof of this other than saying that matches felt worse after the pwyw feature came around. Just because some salty people post on this forum, that doesn't mean a majority of players are going to put on the sheep's clothing and try to ruin survivor experience as survivor.
And forgive me to not adding more context, I was specifically talking about killer duos in 2v8 since the mode is currently live and I forgot to mention it. There's no better comparison I can add to the team related problems on the killer side.If there's one thing I have seen in DbD, it's that if something is possible in DbD it happens in DbD. And if it is incentivized it happens a LOT.
I think the benefits of PWYW are questionable at best because completing matches quickly without escaping or helping your team is incentivized by "Complete Trials" quests and having a queue time of <10 minutes (worse if it's even shorter) also happen. Those are 2 incentives for a player to want a quick survivor match of DbD where they may decide to throw. So if you have a selfish player who doesn't care about anyone else's enjoyment of the match who decides to bring Slippery Meat or a luck offering and/or let the killer catch them without much resistance it's already bad for the match. It gets worse when malicious players do even worse things and we know malicious players exist in DbD, especially if their last killer match was them getting their behind handed to them by a SWF that they couldn't dodge because queue times are so long. It's not like there's any real punishment for this sort of thing.
Honestly I like the idea of the PWYW feature but the way it's currently implemented I can see how it makes matches worse and killer queue times longer at the same time.
But go ahead and call my argument bad faith too.
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Lightborn is fine because:
- The blinding animation on the killer side is still annoying and should be avoidable.
- Lightborn allows killers to hook more often in scenarios where they're forced to slug when 2 survivors are hovering.
- If a killer loads into a lobby of 3-4 flashlights, Lightborn gives them an option in addition to playing without it or dodging and in my opinion anything that reduces dodging is a good thing.
- Bringing a flashlight shouldn't guarantee the survivor the opportunity to blind the killer.
- If the killer brings Lightborn survivors are not held hostage, they can still play the match out. Go do a gen or choose death, you still have a choice.
- Survivors can bring 1 or no flashlights and bring the Flashbang perk for a better chance at the killer not bringing Lightborn. They can search chests and bring offerings to increase chests to find flashlights in the match.
- Survivors can still switch to flashlights last second in the lobby.
When Background Player dropped and used to be +200% haste I ran Lightborn every game for about 3 years. Now Forever Entwined takes its slot.
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As the game is designed now with all the killers having a chance to go to every map in the game, then the answer is a very firm YES pallets should matter always.
If they decide to make pallets not matter against a killer then that killer should have maps designed/altered around them or at least have only certain maps for them and their power.
If BHVR ever actually does do away with the map offerings (or make them ban maps instead) as they should they could move toward curated map lists for every killer and that actually has the potential to be awesome. It could vastly improve DbD.
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@Arcturus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4108916#Comment_4108916
Yeah I thought the same thing, I don't play a ton of Huntress but when I do, I don't reload between every single chase, it's a time waste. A lot of the time I'll go into a second chase with 4 hatchets or so, and the problem I was eluding to wasn't reloading mid chase, but that if you run out of hatchets, you often have to drop chase entirely to reload and look for someone else. Maybe being 4.6 would make that a bit less of an issue, or perhaps at least being 4.6 when out of hatchets (basekit Soldier's Puttee)
I could get behind Soldier's Putee becoming basekit if she gave off a clear tell when she ran out of hatchets, like an audible sigh. Without such a tell they could still make Soldier's Putee a brown or yellow addon and give her a new actually strong Iridescent addon.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4108744#Comment_4108744
I think killers should get basekit bonuses for 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th hooks that is in a separate category so they could go above the 40k cap, up to 50k. It would be a way to incentivize the killer to make the match "sporting" for the Entity and would lead to survivors getting more points in those matches too which would make it a win-win.
I mean, you hopefully mean as long as all 4 Survivors are alive, do you?
Because otherwise it would just be a free Bonus for Killer, since they would just tunnel someone out and then basically maximize their own BPs because they cannot lose at this point.
Of course. I omitted the most important part. 😅
Edited it to fix.
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@Arcturus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4108812#Comment_4108812
I think a much better comparison would be Huntress and Jason. While Springtrap does have a projectile in the shape of an axe, the similarities end there. His axe has a unique arc, making him only effective within 16m or so, which can be a real limitation when a survivor has distance, but the advantage is the arc allows for shots only he can do. His axe also has the AOE effect when missed, which gives killer instinct and can have effects applied to it. On the other hand, Jason's spikes are literally just Huntress hatchets with a different reload method and a slightly smaller hitbox, I believe they even go the same speed. The smaller hitbox can make it easier to miss, but allows for a lot of shots Huntress can't hit, and his reload method means that he can usually reload mid chase a couple of times and never really has to abandon a chase to go to a locker like Huntress.
If I was going to suggest buffs, as of now for some reason Jason is essentially a 4.6 ranged killer because the haste out of power lasts almost half a minute at a time for some reason. I say get rid of that or nerf it and make Huntress 4.6. It might be too oppressive in chase, I'm not sure, but some killers like Clown and Huntress have all their eggs in the chase basket and they should be strong enough to get fast downs. In addition, if Jason is going to be able to have some of the best map traversal in the game along with info and invisibility, Huntress should absolutely be stronger than him in chase. Another change I'd suggest but might screw some Huntress players up for a while is changing the hatchet hitbox to be like a flat circle (to mimic the spinning hatchet) rather than a sphere. This could screw some Huntress players up for a while, and it would make the killer harder, but it would also make certain shots possible that weren't before. In addition, I think you could reduce her lullaby radius slightly to give survivors less of a heads up that she's coming.
These are just some things that come up off the top of my head.
Great post. I could get behind Hag and Huntress being 4.6 m/s, at least when they are not in chase.
@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4108825#Comment_4108825
Just wanna add my 2 cents really quick...
Generally Huntress isn't reloading mid chase. At base, she has 7 hatchets that she reloads before starting a chase. Thats the advantage she has over Jason. Jason has plenty of stuff going for him, but the reload mid chase isn't it.
How much Huntress do you play?
I find when I play her I don't need to reload after every single chase because often I have 4-5 hatchets after a successful chase and don't want to waste time reloading. Usually I am successful in my next chase with a less than full magazine. The few times I am not I generally am not reloading mid-chase, the reload usually ends the chase and I look for better opportunities.
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I do wish that spreading hooks was incentivized like old BBQ did, but I don't see BHVR ever going back to perks giving bonus BP. I still miss old Distressing which helped me max out Deviousness faster.
I think killers should get basekit bonuses for 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th hooks before getting a kill that is in a separate category so they could go above the 40k cap, up to 50k. It would be a way to incentivize the killer to make the match "sporting" for the Entity and would lead to survivors getting more points in those matches too which would make it a win-win.
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Huntress is still a popular killer with a decent kill rate. She doesn't need a rework. Part of her appeal is because she is simple. She throws hatchets.
With the rework Myers got I don't want BHVR touching already popular killers as they are more likely to ruin them than improve them.
They can meddle with Hag, Krasue, Skull Merchant or Houndmaster, because maybe 5 people would be mad if they ruin one of those characters.
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@random1543 said:
Personally I think lobby-dodging is the most selfish act a player can do. You're ruining matches before they even start.
Lobby dodging is terrible, But disabling a whole system and just refusing to use it at all right off the bat I also think is pretty selfish when system is being implemented to help soloq.
a split que would make both sides happy and really has no downsides, potinetly slightly longer survivor que for the least popular toggle is better then players being even more frustrated with team mates / matchmaking then they are now. if comm wheel is the least popular toggle ill happily eat a slightly longer survivor que.
People can have opinions of if a comm wheel will work or not. but it definitely wont work if people have it disabled day one and are being lobbied with people who are wanting to use it. The system needs a chance to work.https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4108506#Comment_4108506
There must be some downside to splitting the queues otherwise we'd see it happen more often than we do now, which is only for events. I think it would make queue times and matchmaking worse and both are already in a bad place. Knowing what I know now, this whole chat wheel looks like a giant nothing-burger and not the game-changer some think it is. Since it is not going to greatly affect the game there is no point in splitting queues, which would make matches worse for everyone.
They're not going to split queues for this. I'd love see a "poor sport" queue for flagrant DCers & AFKers but we'll never get that either.
I think it's a good test of the feature to see what happens. If it does provide a big advantage and isn't abusable/spammable most players should leave it on and use it. If it provides little/no advantage and/or it's abusable/spammable then more will toggle it off. Also there will be data on how it's used and on lobbies that all/none/mixed use it. This can inform BHVR on how to improve it.
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This one you have pictured is pretty weak as on the left it's just a tight grouping of trees.
For the most part I think they're pretty balanced.
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@Wyndsor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4108459#Comment_4108459
If winning is your priority you will put team communication over personal feelings.
Denying your team vital communication preemptively is selfish full stop and I think these players should definitely be marked in pre-game lobby as I'd definitely not want to play with them.
Muting someone who's being abusive in game is completely different and valid though.
Okay I finally read the pinned thread about this chat wheel feature and it doesn't appear like it's going to be that useful of a feature as we already have HUD icons for most of the stuff that appears will be on the wheel. The only useful msgs I even see are split up and something indicating you're going for the unhook or not. It's not like survivors will be able to say "I am at (clock number) and the killer is near me but I am not being chased" like people on Discord can. If you can see more useful stuff there please enlighten me.
They've also said we'll be able to mute players individually so that's great.
But I seriously doubt they'll be giving separate queues for wheel users and non-users or giving us the ability to see if fellow players in the lobby are uses/non-users. We can't see ping, perks or prestige, why would we be able to see whether or not they're using this feature? Someone could keep the feature on and mute the other 3 survivors as a workaround anyway. We've already got too much dodging happening already so why would they add something that would lead to more dodging?
Personally I think lobby-dodging is the most selfish act a player can do. You're ruining matches before they even start.
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I think having this feature toggleable is correct and no I don't think there should be separate queues for people who use it and people who don't. Especially to start with. People are already making broad assumptions about people who use or don't use this feature and it's not even in the game yet. Let's give it a few months and get some real data and experience with it in DbD before making drastic changes.
I hope this feature is toggleable in a match because I am pretty sure that there are going to be some trolls that'll abuse it if they can. Perhaps the ability to mute certain players would be good so players wouldn't have to toggle the whole feature off entirely. Maybe it'll have a cooldown and won't be so abusable, I'll find out when it comes to the game.
@Wyndsor said:
The people who turn it off weren't interested in being good teammates anyways.
Nothing changes for them.
I think this is a very over-broad assumption. There are thousands of players with thousands of hours of experience and the game sense that goes along with that. But some new and as yet untested feature comes along that some of these players may choose to toggle off and you'd brand them a bad teammate.
Someone who knows what to do and gets it done is going to be far more valuable than someone over-using the chat wheel.
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@Dokta_Carter said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4108409#Comment_4108409
Pips are from the old system of judging a win. It mattered way more back then and is probably a habit by now since I played back then
It was changed at one point to Kills and Escape with that wild hockey analogy of "in hockey you don't judge a score by the attempt, but by when you shoot it in(paraphrased)"
Imho it felt less toxic back then because a win in iri rank required you to hit gens, win a lot of chases, and not just swoop killing all the survivors.
I agree I've been playing since that far back myself. SBMM was introduced in September 2021 and before that point (especially before 6.1.0) I used to be able to play DbD for hours on end, day after day. I guess I am more patient than I thought as I have been waiting for BHVR to add fun back to DbD since then.
I think the game and the attitude of its community would be improved if DbD just told players they won rather than being ambiguous about it. IMO, just giving killers an identical "You Won!" screen instead of the Ruthless/Merciless Killer screens would lead to a decent improvement in match quality thanks to a reduction in slugging for the 4K.