So I might of figured out why both sides are frustrated. Idk how to fix it though.
The thing that is making the game frustrating for both sides is game speed. The game is insanely fast compared to 5 years ago. For most killers especially older ones that are slow the game is too fast thus causing these killers to slug and tunnel survivors to slow down the game thus causing survivors to be frustrated. Also the games are insanely fast compared to 5 years ago. Idk any suggestions to fix it and as much as the obvious is to slow it down that would just cause frustration on the survivors end. What do you all think?
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The game actually got slower on the survivor side. Basekit regression was boosted, and gens take longer to complete. Killers tunnel more because there's more room to do so, with DS getting a really agressive nerf. Additionally, with gens taking longer, the best counter to tunnelling (Rushing gens) also got nerfed.
This in turn means that survivors need to bumrush generators because a tunnelling killer cannot be challenged after they start tunnelling, you have to be on it from the start. And with survivors stacking as much anti-tunnel as possible in order to stand a chance, killers have started circumventing all of it by using slugging.
I legitimately think that tunnelling/slugging/camping are lynchpins in balancing issues and a lot of problems could be resolved if those methods were nerfed. But any attempt to address them will get met with outrage, so they get a free pass.
Its depends. For everyone the optimal length of a trial is subjective. I dont want 5min rounds, but everything over 15min can also be annoying. But everything depends on the different stages of the trial.
A normal long match is better than 4 fast gens + 15min trying to break a 3gen. Or in most trials the endgame should be short, but a long endgame can be fun if the match was short.
But for the game speed in general: gen speed is not the problem (not counting some combos), its chase speed. As soon as a chase takes too long (without the killer making big mistakes or the survivor playing really good), there isnt enough slowdown. In talking about things like: closing the distance, forcing a drop and breaking safe pallets, etc.
Thats not a general problem, there are killer which can quick enough downs. It would be great if every map would be automatically balanced depending on the killer, the skill of the players and even depending on the perks. But thats pretty diificult. So the easier solution is to choose a killer which matches the skill of the survivors (i know how dropping mains feels), accept that good and bad maps hopefully even out and that you should bring your best perks if you want to win. And if you get survivor who cant keep up, you kinda need to find a fun way to deal with that (like going for 8 hooks).
I dont think that the games are that fast. Most of my games are around 10 minutes, some less than 10 minutes, some more. But the average is a bit over 10 minutes.
I also disagree with that:
To preface what I am about to say: I am talking about tunneling and slugging from the start. I am NOT talking about the Killer who sees an opportunity to slug or tunnel or feels the need to do that because of the state of the match. So I am not talking about the Killer who slugs because a Survivor is nearby for a Flashlight or Pallet Save. I am also not talking about opportunistic slugging when another Survivor is spotted and it would be good pressure. Also not talking about the Killer who slugs or tunnels because there is 1 Gen left and they need someone dead.
I am talking about Killers who go into the game with the intent to slug and/or tunnel from the start.
And this is done by the strong Killers, not the "older" or "slow" ones. One big reason is that they are better at doing it. A Blight will always have an easier time to tunnel someone out compared to a Ghostface. Or slug from the start, especially with his big Terror Radius, Infectious Fright and Coulrophobia.
Plus I have the feeling that Killer players who play weaker Killers are more chill in general. They dont go into the match to 4K at any cost, they obviously play to win, but they also know that they will have a harder time and should not expect to win all the time with their Trapper or Ghostface. People who play mainly Ghoul, Nurse or Blight on the other hand want to 4K more often and are therefore more likely to slug and tunnel. And this has nothing to do with matches being fast, if anything, they make the matches fast.
Hyper focus + stakeout exist and the game insanely quick when a team uses it and killers only counter is to tunnel, like if the killer doesn't tunnel, survivors are not going to magically stop gen rushing. A game literally can be completed in 5 minutes even if the killer has a full slowdown, I have a video of a gen being completed in 22 seconds by one survivor so all 4 survivors are able to complete a gen in under 30 seconds with gen rushing build.
It's shoulder the burden, shoulder the burden with ds and the killer will genuinely struggle to tunnel because of strong this is and exposed ain't doing anything.
Ds is still a very strong perk, if it was bad now then it wouldn't be used.
Gens have an 8 kick limit and majority of slowdown perks have been nerfed overall and regression speed perks were nerfed as well like ruin or call of brine, a full slowdown build with pain res, pop goes the weasel, DMS and eruption is much weaker currently then it was years ago. Killers have nothing base kit (like a perk) unlike survivors and idk what are you talking about base kit regression cuz they have non.
Survivors were buffed a lot with pallet density update and also even stronger base kit bt.
They don't expect to win because it's really hard for them and they are ones that rely on tunneling to even have a chance.
I love it how I made a big post, you quote 13 words from it, just to show that you did not read my post.
I did but there's nothing good to talk about, it is easier to do tunneling on strong killers but it's required on weak killers and nerfing tunneling will not do anything to the strong killers but make it only worse for weak killers.
But keeping tunneling as it is is not the solution. This does not make the weak Killers any stronger and it does not make the strong Killers any less oppressive to go against.
Which is why there need to be changes to tunneling and slugging (which will not happen, Killer Mains made sure about that with mass hysteria) and Buffs to the weaker Killers. But general Buffs or Nerfs to mechanics will not help weak Killers in the slightest.
When they nerf hyper focus + stake out you won't start saying that now you don't need to tunnel, you'll move on to saying something else means you must tunnel. If survivors don't slam gens the killer isn't going to magically stop tunneling and nerfing this combo just makes tunneling stronger by further weakening the counterplay (slam gens).
Strong killers just eat right through ds and shoulder, they are hardly even a speed bump to tunneling. Nerfing tunneling would hurt stronger killers more then weaker killers exactly because the weaker killers have a harder time doing so and that then makes it easier to adjust other aspects of their power.
Regression perks are still strong, if they weren't killers wouldn't run them and they certainly wouldn't run four of them.
Killers have gotten additional gen time, immediate regression on kick, less wipe time, decreased survivor distance on hit, removal of gen tapping... Both sides have received adjustments to make the game feel better and it's past time that was applied to tunneling.
The 2 seconds cool down reduction is not going to help ghostface, I want strong hook incentives personally for not tunneling/slugging like wesker having a third dash for 30 seconds and this make it more fun for both sides (but the strongest killers having a small buff and being punished for doing this or just nerfing them with good hook incentives).
Should I talk about survivor mains hysteria? Both sides have their complaints and the anti-tunneling and anti-slugging updates were too punishing and it was abused a lot by survivors, the second one in the Krasue patch was better but killers got nothing as the blood lust is literally useless so that's why killers hated it.
Reducing amount of pallets will definitely help, maybe making different killers have less or more pallets on the map depending on how strong they are.
Now I am pretty sure you dont read my posts, because I even said that weaker Killers need Buffs. Not that they already got Buffs and those are enough, lol. But you can also twist my words to get something as an argument for you I guess.
I have not seen the Devs scrap multiple things due to Survivor complaints. Unless you count something like the Twins Rework, but I think everybody can agree that this was absolutely horrible what they did. But Killers now have made it happen at least 4 times that Things on Survivor got nerfed either shortly after they went live or before they went live. This did not happen with things on the Killer side.
See, this is why I think you dont really read. As I said, this will NOT help at all. If we reduce the number of Pallets, what do you think will happen? Do you think people will suddenly play their Ghostface or Demo? Or the Blight and Ghoul they play anyway which are even stronger then?
Adjusting the Pallets depending on how strong a Killer is is also nonsense. First of all, who determines that? If you remember the Devs made ratings for Killers at some point in the past, with Billy being easy and Wraith being intermediate in difficulty… But even then, the really strong Killers play around Pallets and a bunch more garbage Pallets will not change that.
But as I said, general Buffs or Nerfs are not helpful. It needs to be specific Buffs and Nerfs to Killers. Otherwise it is not possible.
What I want is gen rushing nerfed but the tunneling can be nerfed with it or a buff for not tunneling.
Strong should get nerfed and that it's harder for weak killers to tunnel doesn't mean that it's easier for them to not tunnel, they need tunneling because they lack a lot on the power (killers below A tier need tunneling).
Survivor perks are just stronger in general and they get 16 of them like 4 exhaustion perks are much stronger than pain res, I personally don't like to use slowdown and I normally try to use just 1 or 2 if can make a combo from other perks (you need multiple perks on killers for them to be decent), I prefer fun builds like I have a few actually on my mains but I can't think of any more and the diminishing returns ruined a lot of them, so I just use 4 gen kicking perks (and only sometimes full slowdown with pain res) when i don't feel like using any other perks (btw if killers is using a slugging build they have no slowdown).
I totally agree that both sides have gotten buffs against their problems, survivors are getting elusive when unhooked to reduce tunneling, it's better than 15 seconds which was too safe and abused and it will let survivors to hide from the killer.
You basically said what I said but the opposite of it.
Years ago, regression was at such a critically overtuned state that it created a whole new killer-win shortcut in the infamous 'Chess merchant' strategy, where your goal wasn't even to kill the survivors, but just to keep them hostage for 60 minutes until the game decided to time them out.
Out of the build you list, one perk didn't get nerfed at all (Pain Res was 15% originally, now 20%), and Pop and DMS are relatively recent changes, which tunnelling/slugging is most decidedly not.
Only Eruption got a heavy nerf from its initial state, and that was when it could straight up eliminate up to 3 survivors for 30 seconds.
Not to mention, to quote:
Apply that to Pain Res/Pop, because those two are still top of the board.
The only reason killers didn't get a 'perk' basekit is because what they got was more easily applicable than any perk in the game. It's Pop that became basekit, except without the hook requirement. Every time you kick a gen, it loses 5% progress now. That is what you got basekit.
Which stacks with all the other regression perks, which is why some of them got a drop of 5% in return.
Yes, regression is not in its CoBruption state, where losing as a killer was an actual challenge with how little progress survivors could make, nor is it at 'just head for the 3-gen and never chase a soul' state. That doesn't mean it's weak.
Not to mention that tunnelling was -still- running wild even during CoBruption.
Killers tunnel because it's an exceptionally effective way to win, even WITH basekit BT and when tunnelling through DS. The solution to this problem is never going to be 'just nerf survivors even more'.
Do you want a slower game or a faster game? Because if you buff not tunneling to the point it becomes stronger than tunneling you have fundamentally made the game faster (tunneling is already the fastest way the killer can win) which would then mean gens need to go faster. So long as tunneling is something the killer can choose to do this will always fundamentally be the case.
The 16 vs 4 perks argument has always been bogus, it's an asym and the perks on each side do different things. The killer ones have a significantly larger impact on the game than the survivor ones do. Just because you don't run four slowdown personally doesn't make them weak, they are by far the builds I see most frequently. On slugging build, they often run ruin and that's enough because the moment someone is picked up they get knocked down again.
The problem you are missing is that the speed gens currently get completed at are necessary to compete with tunneling. In order to change that you need to address tunneling, not buff not tunneling. Elusive does not help, it's hard countered by the killer having eyes and in one way actually makes tunneling easier, you no longer have to count to ten just wait for the scratch marks to start showing.
My matches are 10-15 minutes when they're not stomps. Games aren't too fast, time-wise, they're just hyper efficient once you're out of the baby leagues. You can't really stop efficiency without base changes (which this community tends to resist) but even if you do it'll just shift to some other meta. People with thousands of hours are never going to start playing less efficiently. The less stressed experienced is for the new players.
Perks are what cause frustration the most, in my opinion. They're the main cause of my most miserable games anyway.
The disparity between classic M1 Killer's with no mobility and that past several Killer's we've gotten all have mobility is an issue that not easily balanced.
Solo Survivors compared to SWF also not easily balanced.
Any time Survivors get a useful perk it's just on borrowed time before it gets nerfed because if the Killer's don't eat good, we have no game.
I honestly don't know how BHVR is going to save the health of this game.
I log in, play two or three matches, realise it's not fun and log off.
Sitting on hook, not fun. Laying on ground, not fun. Sitting on gens, not fun.
Chase and making saves is the only excitement on the Survivor side. Chase has even got annoying because pallets and windows, even though there's a ton of them, many Killer powers make them nearly useless.
Try to Flashlight save and the Killer has complete Lightborn counter for the entire match.
Generator skill check simulator is not gonna keep me playing.
This is a great post. As a serial SoloQ I know my internal chronometer starts ticking really loud once a match has gone on too long and I reach a point where I'd rather be dead and the rest of my team be damned than keep competing in a gone-stale match. Often these are games where killers prioritize gen defense rather than engaging in chases.
How would you change tunneling without wrecking the game?
We know by looking at comp matches that at that level tunneling is a very necessary mechanic in the game. Even in normal public matches if a group of 4 good survivors get a good map like Springwood against many killers it might be necessary for a killer to tunnel if they want to win. Anyone who's played killer any significant amount has been in a match where if they didn't tunnel at a certain point they were throwing the game.
Yes, hard tunneling at 5 gens is bad but how do you solve that problem without wrecking what is a necessary comeback mechanic for killers when 4 good survivors are still alive and only 1-2 gens are left?
We have a massive roster of extremely varied killers of quite unbalanced strengths. Why is it so out of line in your opinion that maps should still generate the same way for all killers all the time?
I think it would be much easier to make it so a few less pallets spawn and a bit more distance generates between loops for killers like Trapper, Ghostface and Pig because they are always a slow 4.6 m/s or slower and have to actually kick every pallet with the 2.7 second animation. More pallets should spawn for killers like Billy and Blight who have great mobility AND the ability to break pallets as fast as a wood chipper. And I don't think it has to be drastically more or less pallets it could be as little as -3 for the D tier killers and +3 for S tier.
Rebalancing map generations based on the killer played is much more feasible than reworking killers. How do you buff Trapper, Ghostface and Pig without completely changing their identities?
Focus on DS as a solution, rather than Endurance. DS works as a deterrent if the stun is long enough, meaning it needs to go back to 5 seconds or higher. Since DS requires the killer's input to function, it cannot be 'used offensively', since trying to bodyblock with it will result in the survivor becoming incapacitated, which hinders them more than the killer.
Then check if the killrates actually drop below target rates, because we have no way of knowing if they will or not.
If they do, first change on the docket is to invert the co-op repair speed penalty and make gens slower when solo'd and faster when there's at least three survivors on one gen. This makes it so that the safest way of doing gens (Split up) is not also the fastest way, leaving survivors the choice of either playing it fast or safe, not both at the same time.
This would also increase the pressure killers get out of incapacitations, since the survivor is worth more than just their own repair speed; they can't give a co-op bonus if they're not on a gen.
If that's not enough, we can cross that bridge when we get to it.
I'm not sure if you're saying 5s DS should become basekit or DS should just be changed to be 5s, but I've never liked perk solutions for problems. Either way though, I really like the generator idea, as that way splitting up or working together on a gen each has it's own pros and cons. I always thought it was weird that you were rewarded with bp for repairing with teammates, but the game is actually actively punishing your action speed. However, I think something would have to be done to prevent survivors from hopping on the first gen they see when spawning in. On a killer without Lethal and without a movement ability, the survivors could just pop a gen within 20s together before the killer even finds them.
No. We already dealt with weaponized DS in the past we don't need to revisit that. Good survivors know how to force grabs at lockers and windows so they get DS value. DS is in a perfectly fine place already.
Average kill rates are already below the 60% target so we don't need to buff genrushing with co-op speed bonuses. If BHVR took your ludicrous suggestion of inverting co-op repair speed penalties 3 survivors would be able to pound out a gen from zero to done in under 24 seconds instead of the ~43s we have now. And that would be basekit without survivors bringing single gen perk or toolbox. Killers would have to run full regression builds and slug and/or tunnel at 5 gens just to have a chance at winning. What an absolute nightmare that would be.
Oh, do enlighten me! This one should be good!
Pray tell, how does someone force a locker grab, hm? What situation is there where a killer is -forced- to go after a survivor that is taking himself out of the game, run up to their locker, and press interact?
'Cause they're sure as hell not bodyblocking from the locker, are they?
The only reason DS is currently a potential problem is because of Endurance. Someone bodyblocks with that, you can normally punish them by chasing them, but DS goes against that.
Without Endurance, though, if they try to bodyblock, they get slugged, which is extremely costly to the survivors.
Provided, of course, you don't let yourself get baited into picking them up. Which I understand is a problem that you specifically seem to be having, since you struggle to stop yourself from tunnelling into obvious DS bait.
As evidenced by? Majority of players here have shown KRs well above, and every time BHVR shows stats (deflated by excluding games with disconnects) the KRs have been well above target.
Ah, I see you have run a number crunch without having any actual numbers.
Remember where I said this?
What gave you the impression we'd still be looking at 90 charge gens?
Perhaps you should consider the outlined principle of the idea before flying off the handle with wild guesstimations.
If you can't carry on a respectful conversation then I don't see the need to have a discussion with you.
Anyone coming at me with 'DS can be weaponised with a forced locker grab' is being horrendously disingenuous at best to start with, anyway.
Regardless of your opinion DS is not just an anti-tunnel perk and has been weaponized in the past and continues to be weaponized, especially against newer players or the weaker killers on the roster. It is a general perk now with an already very high usage rate and a long enough stun for someone to be able to easily make it to another pallet thanks to the pallet density changes against basically every killer except Blight or Ghoul. It simply does not need a 5 second stun or any other buffs.
Anyway, I doubt I can change your mind on anything so why bother.
First of all, I want to preface that I dont think that tunneling will ever be fixed. Maybe if enough Survivor players leave the game, they will try to fix it, but then it is probably too late. The Devs tried, Killers had mass hysteria and the Devs gave up. And since mass hysteria by Killers worked 4 times already, it will work again and again. Sadly the Devs only say that they dont like certain playstyles, as seen in one of the latest Dev streams - they nerf Coulrophobia because they dont like slugging, yet they refuse to do something basekit against slugging.
But to answer the question: I think the ideas they had for Anti-Tunneling (and Anti-Slugging) were good and should have come to the Live Servers. Because you cannot just bring something to a PTB and then scrap it immediatly when it was not properly tested. Players in this game have proven again and again that they are a) not good and b) doomposting a lot. Obviously you wont get valuable feedback from a few hours on the PTB. And from what the Devs had, they should have worked from there. The game wont suddenly die if it is a bit harder for Killers for a few weeks. The game wont die if it is a bit harder for Survivors for a few weeks. But constant changes should be the thing happening to Tunneling and Slugging to find a good balance between punishments and rewards. And you dont get this with a one and done solution as the Devs attempted to do it.
Because in the end, it boils down to punish tunneling and slugging and meaningful reward not tunneling and not slugging. And this was attempted with BHVRs approach. And I was actually excited for it, because currenty Anti-Tunnel measurements boil down to a few Perks which dont do much against the Killers who tunnel the most. And I am also not tunneling myself, so obviously I wanted to get rewarded for playing like this as it was intended for the Devs.
Sometimes I dont understand why I take the time to write posts. I even wrote in my very first post that I am not talking about the tunneling which is happening because the Killer would lose the game otherwise. I mean, aside from the fact that we should ignore Comp when it comes to public maches, what do you want me to say? I try, but if you ignore certain points, I dont know anymore. But, again: I am NOT talking about Killers tunneling because they are close to losing and have no other way to win. Survivors usually DONT complain about those. I know that some people twist it like that to have somewhat of an argument, but it is not the truth. I am talking about Killers who go into the game to tunnel and slug from the start.
I had two games back to back like this yesterday. First a Blight who played with Infectious Fright and Coulrophobia with the goal to slug the whole team (I was the last person standing and he BMed me a bit before downing me so that we can all abandon…"nice" person). Followed by a Wesker who tunneled me out from the start. Both Killers which dont need to do it. And I am very certain if that would have been a Ghostface and a Trapper, this would not have happened. Because a) they have a way harder time to do it and b) those KIllers are played by less sweaty players.
I will start with this:
IMO changing their identities is not a concern for BHVR; Myers has shown it. But obviously we want to keep their identities. I honestly dont know what exactly to do to those Killers. You can certainly do number changes for Trapper, e.g. I would let him pick up two traps at once and lower the number of locations. E.g. if 8 Traps lie around, there should just be 4 locations with 2 traps each. Would reduce his travel time drastically. Further changes for Trapper:
Some players like to suggest that Trapper should not get caught in his own Traps and the Add On which does this should become Basekit. I think this is a terrible idea, since it would not really make him much stronger, but would only strengthen his most unfun playstyle (Basement Trapper).
And in the end, we have to be realistic: If we want to keep his identity and not make him teleport around or doing a Trapper Slash or something like that, he will still be the Killer who has to setup and pick up his Power from the ground. Trapper will never be a Top Tier Killer. But he also does not need to be. Just not being in contention for the worst Killer in the game is fine.
When it comes to Ghostface, I have way less experience with him. I would probably lower the Power Cooldown more. It is currently 15 seconds, the same as Spirit and higher than Jasons. And both have a much better power than Ghostface. Plus Spirit can get her power even lower than Ghostface with her Recharge Add Ons. Granted, those are higher rarity, but I dont think that matters too much in this case. I think having his Power on 12 seconds and keeping the Add On which lowers it by 2 seconds unchanged would be fine. OR put it on 10 seconds and rework the Add On completely. I dont think that this would be unreasonable.
I would also like to see the Add On which gives him Haste after marking as Basekit. If they want to put it fully into his Kit or partially and nerf the Add On, I dont know to be honest, this needs to be tested. But Ghostface will most likely lose distance when marking a Survivor, so having more Haste or more Haste as Basekit is needed. On that note, I also think that the Add On which lets the Gen explode when he marks a Survivor should be reworked, but I dont think he needs Nerfs right now.
When it comes to Pig, I think she is in a good spot right now. I am doing well with her, even without running Slowdowns. But this is because of her built-in Slowdown. I think if she should be changed, more love to her Dash and Stealth are appreciated. Most people like to go for the Traps, but they should not be too good. They should not be lethal for the most part, they should be a Slowdown tool and I feel with the guaranteed boxes Survivors have to search, this is achieved.
Now, when it comes to Pallets being changed depending on the Killer: This will most likely not work. First of all, even currently you can win with every Killer against the majority (>90%) of teams you encounter. This is possible and if someone says otherwise, they are probably not as good as they think they are. So it really might be an overkill if Maps spawn with less Pallets, just because someone is playing Trapper for example. Because I have to say, most complaints about Pallets are done by bad players. If I see that someone posts a clip complaining about Pallet Density, they are usually also breaking every single Pallet they encounter without playing any of them. And most Pallets in the game are indeed playable. But if you break every ######### pallet to give the Survivor free distance all the time, then this is on you.
Increasing the amount of Pallets for strong Killers would also not work. Some maps already have almost the maximum amount of Pallets and adding a few more will not suddenly stop a Blight from dominating a game. Which is why Buffs and Nerfs to Killers are needed, not to maps or Survivors. E.g. when it comes to Blight, the Nerf that he needs to refill Tokens after breaking a Pallet basically turned out to be pointless, since unlike Ghoul, his recharge rate is so fast that it does not really matter. (Unless it is a Blight who breaks every Pallet they find…)
But is it really that simple to change maps for a balanced experience?
Main problem is the mmr or more like the skill involved. A bad survivor against a bad Legion needs more pallets than a good survivor against a good Legion.
Then theres perks, items and addons. You could say that everyone can freely decide to not bring the strongest stuff and if they do, its their problem. So the map strength shouldnt take it into account. But with that reasoning you are also free to pick a stronger killer. Example: a legion with a normal build and pallet shredder legion who just wants to get rid of all pallets.
Lastly you would need to change it for every killer. Groups are not that easy. Jason and Billy have both good mobility, but Billy struggles a lot more with Lerys. You would even need to take the tiles into account. For Trickster and other ranged killer it matters if the loop is short and you can throw over it.
Dont get me wrong: it would be really nice, but it takes a lot of work.
Yeah, thanks, you're still arguing from some spread position where you're using the current game state to argue against an entirely new one. Without Endurance, DS cannot be weaponised. It doesn't matter that DS can be weaponised now if in the new game state it can't.
Killer frustration is the fact that the bottom 80% of the roster is not viable against good teams. Solo queue Survivor frustration is their crappy teammates.
We can fix the killer part by giving low tier killers the buffs they deserve, but we can't fix stupid.
as a big trapper fan and someone whos played him through all stages of the game, you dont need to hard tunnel with him or even have gen regression. you need good fundamental dbd and game sense on how to utilise traps. plus his iris and a couple of the purple addons do a good job making up most of his deficiencies. he does need some small changes but as long as im not going against people who are just generally much better than me or highly coordinated to make my traps useless, you can win many many games with trapper. there are lots of perks that work well with him.
And i generally play weak to mid tier killers. i dont play blight or nurse or ghoul.
I win all the time. Not all the time, but lots of it.
@Aven_Fallen
The biggest problem with DbD is that it has never had the ability to tell the difference between unnecessary tunneling from the get go and necessary tunneling. We can see cases where it actually is necessary to tunnel from the get go, in comp. So where do they draw the line? How can they program the game to know the difference? These are questions with no easy answers. We can't just ignore comp because we can't say that comp style matches don't happen in public DbD matches. The game that ended Momo_Seventh's Blight streak is an example of a comp style public match.
As for your changes to Trapper, Ghostface and Pig… I apologize for asking. I think your killer changes are fine, but this isn't the thread for that discussion.
It's just an interesting idea. They could level the playing field by leveling the playing field. Addons like Iridescent Button throw a brutal wrinkle in the idea.
But I do think that having all maps enabled all the time generating the same way for all killers is kind of outdated now that we have so many maps and so many killers, none of which are actually well-balanced, especially now that map offerings have been dumpstered. Scratched Mirror Myers used to be one of my go to builds to play but I haven't even played him a single time since his rework because I know most of the time I'd load into a map where I'm not going to have fun.
You're right it would take a lot of work, work that BHVR most likely won't do.
I'm using the current state of the game versus some hazy imaginary new game state you haven't bothered to identify or quantify. All you said was "Focus on DS as a solution, rather than Endurance."
The problem is the devs continue to try to deal with these strategies by punishing killers rather than doing what they need to do.
What they need to do is to reward healthy play (on both sides btw), and just make the unhealthy play fundamentally impossible to do instead of punishing it, while creating new mechanics for people to engage with. You don't need to punish tunneling if it literally cannot exist.
You miss the point again. In this new world hypothetically, DS shouldn't even exist, because it doesn't need to.
yea and then we are talking about a different game altogether and i do not think that is possible to be done here.
No we aren't It is completely possible to do this without fundamentally changing the core base of the game.
That's kinda the exact problem I'm pointing at. You're not engaging with the concept, you're ruling it out based on a state where it isn't implemented.
It's the difference between 'This wouldn't work with endurance still in play though' and 'DS is actually really strong and abusable so no'.
Sure, but how are you going to do that?
Did you mean to reply to someone else? I haven't commented on your idea, so this seems very much out of left field.
We can see cases where it actually is necessary to tunnel from the get go, in comp.Except this is a viable strategy in comp because the killer knows whether the survivors have anti-tunnel or not. When they do unrestricted match ups tunneling is usually not done because it becomes a much weaker strategy against strong survivors with unlimited perks.
so you claim.
you may have an idea. an idea is unproven and just because you think the idea is good and can properly work does not mean it does. when designing games there are many things that are tested and then found out not to be workable in game design. Im sure behavior has tried a variety of things internally and thus do not implement them.
You still have yet to put anything forward that could be defined as a concept. So what am I not engaging with?
Do you want to delete Endurance and buff DS? Endurance has been proven to be a necessary mechanic ever since Borrowed Time was introduced. So if there was no Endurance for someone recently unhooked but basekit DS (I'm assuming DS has to be basekit as removing basekit BT without compensation would just be a huge survivor nerf) then the correct play for the killer is to always slug them and the go for the rescuer, which would just be massive free pressure because another survivor has to get off their gen to come pick them up. In what currently is the trade scenario where the killer hits the survivor before and after they unhook would turn into something worse than a trade scenario where the correct play for the killer would be to slug the unhooker, down the recently unhooked, leave them slugged and put the rescuer on the hook. Then unless they have enormous pressure and many killers would proxy camp in this position. Just eating the DS stun becomes a really unappealing option since you want it to 5+ seconds.
I don't see any way that this would be an improvement to the game. It would lead to more slugging and camping.
Or do you have something in your head that you have yet to post that would make this "concept" even remotely tenable?
My point is that there is no way for the game to define when tunneling is bad and should be punished or restricted and when its necessary. Comp is just an easy extreme example.
Take 2 lobbies:
In case 1 clearly tunneling from the start is bad and in case 2 tunneling from the start might be necessary, especially if you're not on your best killer with a less than ideal map.
How is the game supposed to be able to tell the difference?
If it was a a simple black and white issue like 3+ gens tunneling bad & <3 gens left tunneling acceptable then it would be coded into the game. But instead it's all just a huge murky, undefinable (and therefore uncodeable) grey zone.
In case 1 clearly tunneling from the start is bad and in case 2 tunneling from the start might be necessary, especially if you're not on your best killer with a less than ideal map.Any time a discussion like this comes up, necessary starts getting used. What people mean by necessary is 'to win'. Except that's a bad way to approach it because the killer experience should be a mix of wins and losses.
When we look at your example lobbies, multiple game elements could apply. I could argue infinites never should have been taken out because the lobby might be baby soloq. Except that would be a bad standard. The focus should be on an overall healthier game and the community recognizes it for discussing other game elements, but tunneling seems to be an exception.
How is the game supposed to be able to tell the difference?It doesn't need to. Stronger anti-tunnel perks, the anti-tunnel update idea from last year, either of those would work. My preference would be revisiting the way they approached anti-tunnel, which had some good ideas but BHVR, like they frequently do, went way, way overboard.
Just because "the killer experience should be a mix of wins and losses" doesn't mean they should be put into entirely hopeless matches. It is a game and in any given match each side should have at least some chance to win. Every match. One side should not be in an entirely hopeless match for the other side's entertainment. A lot of players would go looking for other games to play if they keep getting hopeless matches.
Strong anti-tunneling tools are already available to survivors like basekit BT, DS, OTR and Shoulder the Burden, etc.
The first paragraph doesn't really respond to anything. Something being a mix of wins and losses goes hand in hand with the idea of both sides having a chance to win. If anything, tunneling works against that rationale as a killer who tunnels takes it out of the hands of most of the survivors and puts it solely in the hands of the tunneled target.
I'm all for both sides having a chance to win which is one of the reasons I really want them to address tunneling.
The 'every match' is difficult given the extreme randomness of match ups that exist in DbD, which is a deeper topic than this thread.
Alotof players would go looking for other games to play if they keep getting hopeless matches.Yeah, that's what has happened. There's a reason keeping new survivors around has been difficult, and tunneling is one of the primary reasons.
Strong anti-tunneling tools are already available to survivors like basekit BT, DS, OTR and Shoulder the Burden, etc.Let me go back to something you said earlier -
Regardless of your opinion DS is not just an anti-tunnel perk and has been weaponized in the past and continues to be weaponized, especially against newer players or the weaker killers on the rosterNote the use of 'weaker' killers.
I don't understand why on the survivor side, the expectation is that they need to run the right things, and if they don't, tough, but the killer sided discussion is based around worst case scenarios like weaker killer.
The perk solution also has two fundamental problems
1: Some perks have little effect on certain killers (DS against Blight/Nurse), going against your argument of have a chance every match as the survivors have no knowledge or control over what killer they face.
2: The perks rely on a massive element of chance. StB is useless if you are tunneled, DS and OTR useless if someone else is tunneled. The perk solution relies not just on survivors bring these perks (and I'm not more in favor of survivors having to just run one or two builds than I am every killer having to play just Blight or Nurse), but also ending up being the right target/not target.
Well sometimes tunneling is a comeback mechanic for killers, so it's a nuanced problem, making tunneling a very hard problem to address. Hence the massive grey area I mentioned earlier.
This isn't anything new. DbD has always had a player retention problem. New players join with new licenses and leave when the novelty and/or cakes run out. Who's to say tunneling is more to blame now than any of the other multitude of problems this game has.
I'm not really sure what we're discussing here anymore.
I think the best way to solve the tunneling problem is with fresh hook incentives. I like to see bhvr give the fresh hook incentives another try because the idea was great but it was poor execution
No, I put it forward that DS should be focus of anti-tunnel, instead of Endurance. That is a concept. If you need more clarification, you could ask instead of rail.
Yeah, I wouldn't get rid of basekit BT, but I would strip endurance off OTR and make OTR into total info black-out. This prevents it from overlapping with DS, which causes the weaponisation, and gives OTR a different, also non-weaponisable anti-tunnel effect.
The whole problem with tunnelling got kicked into high gear when 6.1. ripped out DS and put OTR in its place, which was a downgrade for both sides of the aisle. It was worse as anti-tunnel and better against non-tunnellers. It needs to be reverted. DS works better for both parties (Though some may spin up fanciful tales about being 'forced' to grab someone out of a locker) and thus should be brought back.
And in fact, BHVR -knows- DS was an effective tunnelling deterrent, because that is the literal, exact reason we now have an obsession in every match, even if no perk interacts with it. That was implemented because the absence of an obsession meant there was no DS, which gave killers the green light to tunnel, so DS, by itself, was clearly stemming the tide.
There was an exit survey, and tunnelling was the #1 issue recorded.
This was not really a public match, even if it happened on the public Servers. This was a Comp Team sniping a Comp Killer. Not at all compareable to regular public matches.
Do you know what was compareable to regular public matches? Almost 2000 games of a person making the game miserable for Survivors to boost their ego. But at least the tantrum afterwards was entertaining.
The Devs had measurements in their initial proposal, e.g. if a Survivor dies before 6 total Hook States, the remaining Survivors get a repair speed Buff. They could have easily made this more dynamic for example. 6 total Hook States are a reasonable number if we want to rule out tunneling from the start, but they could have adjusted it to be lower when more Gens are completed. E.g. with 4 Gens done, it is only 3 total Hook Stages so that Survivors would not get a Repair Speed Bonus when they are already leading. Or they could have increased the benefits the Killer gets the less Gens are remaining so that Killers who decide not to tunnel will get even stronger when Survivors complete their objective.
They could have adjusted a lot of numbers instead of just scrapping everything and removing any hope that tunneling will at some point be addressed.
I never railed against you at all in this thread. Not at all like your first response to me in this thread where every word dripped with rancor. Try not to practice hypocrisy.
You had never said anything about OTR until now. Finally I can understand part of the concept you have in your head.
Honestly, I don't mind most of this but if I were to buff DS I'd give survivors haste during the stun instead of making the stun longer. But I still think DS is in a fine spot now that pallet density has been increased. In most games it's still plenty powerful and it's not like killers only have to endure 1 DS stun per game and only eat those stuns when they are tunneling.
I still believe 6.1.0 removed a fair amount of fun from DbD, fun that is still absent from the game, possibly to never be replaced. One of the best parts of that patch was making Ruin deactivate once a survivor died and they got rid of that. I think a better way to deter tunneling would be to have all regression perks start strong but get a nerf once a survivor dies in the match, and probably disable them altogether once 2 are dead.
Where did they share that?
Well, perhaps if they did exit surveys further back tunneling may have always been the #1 issue reported. We'll never know.
As I said elsewhere in this thread comp is just an easy example to point at. We still have scenarios in public matches where a killer can have their first chase take too long and the other 3 survivors split up and finish 2-3 gens early and the killer may have to try to quickly eliminate a survivor to stay in the game if they want to win. I'm sure it happens many times every day.
I wouldn't mind comeback mechanics for survivors as killers still have tunneling and slugging as powerful comeback mechanics.
I don't think BHVR has the will to develop, test and implement the mechanics themselves. They got rid of Ruin disabling after a kill and as you said they dumpstered that proposal. Probably it'll be modders that do this work and then in 2028 BHVR will copy their work and bring it to live.
I outlined the general concept and your first response was to dig in your heels and reject it off the cuff. And to reiterate, anyone that barks about 'forced locker grabs' is disingenuous.
But I had mentioned Endurance already.
Longer stun would work better, since it feels worse for the killer and is overall a bit more costly. Especially if the camera is forced down and they lose sight of the target.
If killers are consistently still eating the stun, they are doing so of their own volition. And if they are doing so of their own volition, it means that DS is likely not functioning as a deterrent.
If a killer would rather just tunnel through DS than not tunnel at all, that means DS is just flat-out not doing its job. And it used to.
Yeah, the early disable of Ruin being reverted is the other case where BHVR made a decision that was worse for both sides of the aisle. For killers, Ruin was still not worth picking up because it disabling on first death was not a problem at all, it needed its regression rate back, and for survivors it's trash because it got a little stronger when used by a tunneller.
That wouldn't do anything, because once a survivor is dead, if the killer keeps the pace, gen progression drops to 0, meaning you don't need your regression perks at all.
And that is complete lip service, because by that point, the game's done.
That was the reason they tried to do an anti-tunnel update.