Devil_hit11
Devil_hit11
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3704370#Comment_3704370
I'm not 100% sure of that. It's 48 seconds in exchange for a potential 70s gen progress, 100s gen progress if everyone has Weaving Spiders and everyone goes to basement. As stated already, everyone going does not boost the progress time of the invocation, so everyone going is a much bigger risk of getting caught.
There is walking time to and from the basement which is at least 10 seconds either way out of the way of a generator, and the charges are given to the survivors, not automatically applied, so you uave to make the journey before you can start using the charges to get it back. At best you're looking at best maybe 68 seconds for 70 seconds progress back, but the trade off is it does allow you to break a key gen much easier.
You also have the charhes bound to an item, and you have a luminescent white Ethereal item the killer can see you carrying, that you can't put down for longer than 6s otherwise is dissipates.
Needless to say, you become a target carrying this item, and there is of course perks like Franklin's and add-ons the same effect that could make things really difficult for this perk, or at the very least keep interrupting the usage of your charges to cause some misses.
Tjis also isnt accounting for the existing risk of the killer potentially hearing the invocation and catch the survivor in basement.
There seems to me to be plenty of counter play, and it's certainly better than the current mechanism or other proposals of sitting in basement for 2 minutes a go. That is going to suck no matter what you do.
48 second is so short that most killer will take about 20 second to just walk from one side of the map to the other side. i have zero clue how you expect killers to ever interrupt a ritual. It might as well be guaranteed at that point and have 200% time efficiency as only 1 survivor is required.
With current system, it takes 60 second finish ritual but that is 2 people. So while it is still hard to interrupt. it is higher time investment for being mostly uninterruptible.
You also have the charhes bound to an item, and you have a luminescent white Ethereal item the killer can see you carrying, that you can't put down for longer than 6s otherwise is dissipates.
What is the counter-play to 4 survivors going onto a generator and instantly completing 75% progression in less then 1 second? It doesn't take long for the gen to be instant complete.
Needless to say, you become a target carrying this item, and there is of course perks like Franklin's and add-ons the same effect that could make things really difficult for this perk, or at the very least keep interrupting the usage of your charges to cause some misses.
Telling killers to run franklin demise in case a random invocation perk triggers that instant completes a gen is like telling killers to run shattered hope vs boons.
Invocation perks are suppose to be high risk, high reward. part of high risk is long time to activate said perk. with Weaving spider's, it has high risk but reward is not there. that is what my change to the perk fixes. it makes high reward perk over-time. It is not best perk for gen progression where you gen-rush killer in 5-6 minutes but the perk win over-time and will provide strong average value in a dbd match.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3704171#Comment_3704171
No thoughts regarding my template?
In my opinion time is too valuable a resource to be the main viability/balancing factor of multiple survivors working on the invocation. It is too delicate a parameter to use as a means of making a perk scalable, but not overpowered.
I seems time still is a major factor in this suggestion, which doesn't address the issue I raise at all.
I'm all for expansion of ideas, critism or down right objection if the idea if tne argument is well reasoned... but shouldn't this have been it's own thread if it wasn't gonna make use of any of the points I raise in the OP?
i don't think it is good idea as that version of the perk is only good for countering end-game 3 gens where you can instant complete a gen with stacking old BNP toolboxes. use case is too narrow from [effect] stand-point.
In my opinion time is too valuable a resource to be the main viability/balancing factor of multiple survivors working on the
invocation. It is too delicate a parameter to use as a means of making a perk scalable, but not overpowered.48 seconds is too short and doesn't offer the killer much counter-play. you get more gen progression from invocation perk than survivor doing gens.
@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3704192#Comment_3704192
Not really, i want this perk to be great and used, its just that the option you created would result in this:
• Match starts
• One survivors goes into the basement and does the invocation
• The invocation is finished
• All survivors hide around until all gens auto-complete.
Do you want this?
haha. I was just naming an extreme with the perk. My goal with the perk was to make it a viable perk selection that allows survivor to win with generator progression over-time. In practice, the perk triggers once invocation is complete a single time and then repetitively triggers every 2 minutes. In my estimation, it takes around 6 minutes for the perk to provide positive value to the team.
Triggering the perk 9 times is goofy exaggeration. I am not going to say it cannot happen but your average game is not going to be 25 minutes of weaving spiders.
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@SoGo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3704171#Comment_3704171
Oh god please no. This would drag the game out so much. Don't give them ideas.
why? are you afraid of the invocation meta?
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Weaving spiders:
The place where fear festers and terror treads is also where those with the gift can reach across the veil.
When in the Basement near the circle, press the Active Ability button to begin the Invocation, which takes 120 seconds to complete.
During an Invocation, your auras is revealed to all other Survivors and they can join in, accelerating the process by +100 %, if they too have an Invocation Perk equipped, or by +50 %, if they have not.Once the Invocation is completed, the following effects apply:
Permanently reduce charges required of all generators in the trial by 8/9/10 charges every 120 seconds.
You automatically enter the injured from any previous Health State, and suffer from the broken Status Effect for the remainder of the Trial.
Completing an Invocation disables all Invocation Perks for the remainder of the Trial for all Survivors.
"I call upon the spirits of the night, to aid us in our desperate flight!" — Sable
===
you complete the ritual and every gen gets progress every 120 seconds. i am sure some content creators will attempt to do ritual and hide for 25 minutes for the perk to auto win the game. the perfect stealth Claudette perk.
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@_Onyx_ said:
OG Freddy was the worst thing to happen to DBD lol
Why do you want to bring that back? The only thing good about OG Freddy was the Dream Pull ability. Slap that into current Freddy's kit with a few additions to his power; make his Projection usable on every generator regardless of whether it's completed, blocked or still in need of repairs. Make Red Paint Brush base kit. Make Projection take less time to recharge. And then that's a Freddy that is actually worth playing as.
a lot of people enjoyed OG freddy because he was like scratch mirror myer's that you could play on any map. He was fun to play but not powerful. that was his main issue. The rework made him stronger but he lost fun and dimensions to his gameplay. After that, he got nerfed and he hasn't recovered since.
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because blight strength is tunneling. Same for Nurse and Spirit. Killer will perform strategy that yields highest return.
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@vBlossom_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3702829#Comment_3702829
I don't think people would want to verse killer with PainRes, Pop and Thana on top of it.
Also in current state Thana incentivises hit and run playstyle - all survivors need to be injured for full value.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3702824#Comment_3702824
i just want a -4% healing penalty per injured survivor back.
But why? As I've mentioned above, healing perks got nerfed, medkits got nerfed, healing times are longer, yet you still want additional healing penalty on top of that?
Like, don't you think that mangled, even timed-out, isn't enough at this point? After you hit someone with sloppy, they are healing slower, there are less healing perks and healing time got longer?
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/062EEXF9C2H8/image.png
If you put it on perspective, it looks like killers have semi-thana in basekit, back then it was 16 seconds per heal, now it's 24.
Like, don't you think that mangled, even timed-out, isn't enough at this point? After you hit someone with sloppy, they are healing slower, there are less healing perks and healing time got longer?
the expose perks are too unreliable. I rather run sloppy+old thana and ensure my opponent is injured the entire trial.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703290#Comment_3703290
Well it sounds like they kept the “recall Victor at any time thing” so they should no longer be able to take him hostage if I’ve got that right.
Still kinda stuck if they locker jump cross map though. Not much you can do there.yes but they also shadow nerfed twins. it is that her cooldown to regrow victor is worse. they reverted her changes but did not revert her nerfs.
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They made freddy a good killer because stacking of anti-heal in combination of gen-delay would mean that most survivor would become exposed as the time to heal took very long.
This was freddy's design. I believe reason why freddy is not being buffed/changed even though he is on par with the worst killer is because dev refuse to bring back these add-on that completely defined his gameplay style. survivor did not like this gameplay style so it got gutted. they didn't even bother to nerf. they straight up removed it. that gives a large clue for how despised these add-on were.
All the perks that have -action speed also have chronic drawbacks.
Dying light has 3 of them. +healing, immunity obsession, kills itself when the person dies.
Thanatophobia has no anti-heal and requires 4 survivor to be injured.
Gift of pain has scourge hook drawback, requirement to heal and i believe they even nerfed the action speed penalty to 9%. they're supposedly meant to fix the perk to 16% but i can't not think that this was an intended change.
I am going disregard hex:penti but it has hex drawback.
you can take a hint from the perks for odds of these add-on and freddy coming back are.
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it is not exactly 15%. It is 17.5% relative increase. When you go through the pink gas+yellow gas, add 15% hindered and your effectively moving at 147.5% for few seconds. that is almost as fast as cloaked wraith. that should answer why your not making around 1 loop on a tile. my advice vs clown is pre-drop pallets and react to lunge if loop isolated. If not isolated, there is specific type of pathing you can do vs clown that makes him waste bottles while being safe. it is hold-w but it is complicated type of hold-w.
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@Blueberry said:
No. The killer should be balanced well at base and addons should be there to create new play styles or enhance areas you’d prefer. Unfortunately we have the current issue where many, many killers are reliant on addons that should be in their base design.
pretty sure the reason why a lot of killer are reliant on add-on's is because survivor dislike many of the killer designs. So it is like a lot of killer are self-nerfed but in order to make killer not unplayable bad, the dev put add-on's to make them playable. sometimes though, they don't even put an add-on, so they're just plain bad. Stuff like freddy snares slowing him down. deathslinger having a slow scope, no add-on to fix or 32 meter tr which is gated by an add-on that forces you to scope entire game. stuff like that.
as freddy or slinger loved by survivors when they were stronger? Nope. that is why they're bad.
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@Shroompy said:
There are 3 killers I believe that need reworks, just to make them make more sense in terms of who they are.
Merchant needs a rework that plays more into the "Apex Predator" kind of style. She should be more of a stealth killer, utilizing her drones for reconnaissance but to also amplifly her stealth. What I had in mind is giving her a "Hunter Stance" which effectively works as a crouch, but more like Pig instead of Ghost Face. From this stance she'd be able to leap forward to deal 1 health state of damage. Her drones would also be stealthier and can be remotely controlled. Looking at a Survivor builds up lock on similarly to Ghost Face or Myers stalk. When a Survivor is fully locked on they are revealed on her radar, and a successful leap instantly puts Survivors into the dying state. Disabling a drone removes it from her inventory for some time, but gives the Survivor a claw trap which reveals them on her radar, and they cant disable any drones before the claw trap is taken off. A claw trap is automatically removed after some time.
Freddy definitely needs to be like his old self but his power should be amplified the more Survivors fear him, and the Dream World should be something to fear. Survivors will have 3 states: Awake, Micro-sleep, Asleep. Survivors passively enter Micro-sleep, but are immediately put into it if hit. A Survivor who suffers from Micro-sleep can be pulled into the Dream World, leaving their body behind in the real world. (similar to the Haunted by Daylight event, but a husk of the Survivor is left behind). In the Dream World Survivor perks are disabled, Freddy's abilities in the Dream World, are Dream Snares and Dream Doorways. A snare will latch onto a Survivor if stepped on, making them bound to the area for a short time and limiting their movement. A Doorway allows the Nightmare to walk through it and pass through the wall its placed at. The more Survivors suffer from Sleepiness, as well how many hook states Survivors have, the more Doorways and Snares there are in the Dream World. A Survivor will automatically exit the Dream World after a while, a fellow Survivor can pull them out early by waking them up, or the Survivor can find an Alarm Clock to exit the Dream World. Failing skill checks will put a Survivor into the "Awake" state, as well as using an Alarm Clock. Survivors who are put into the Dying State while in the Dream World on their last hook state can be killed by Freddys own hand.
Myers I feel like he could be more in line with the rest of the cast since he's pretty outdatted, and he should have some his of frustrating aspects looked at. First we'll start with tier 1, but were gonna rename it to "Stalker" for now. for now. He should be given a normal lunge just to make him a little more useful while in this mode, since he's gonna be spending a bit more time in it. After stalking for long enough, he'll have the option to go into Tier 2, or "Standard Mode" or Tier 2. This remains the exact same as before, but his ability to stalk is removed. This is now replaced with being able to go back into Stalker mode after some time. Once again, after he's reached enough stalk and in he's in Standard Mode, he can then go into Tier 3, or "Unstoppable Mode". While in this mode his action speeds are increased by 10% (with vaulting remaining at 30%), and he is given a new ability: "Killer's Intuition" where he may reveal any Survivor within a short range of him with Killer Instinct. Additionally if he gets his hands on a Survivor on their final hook state, he may kill them by his own hand. Unstoppable mode has a duration of 80 seconds, after which he is automatically brought back to Standard. To be able to keep track of things as Survivor the current sounds of Myers for tiering up/down remain the same, with the addition of returning back to Stalker mode (unused tier up tune), as well as a "Killer's Intuition" reveal (old tier up imminent).
skull merchant had capacity to be permanent undetectable killer. Her low powered mode add-on got nerfed. In some sense, she already is stealth killer. She just got nerfed.
on side note, The two killer that i think need most changes is Dredge and Nemesis. These two killer are pre-buffed Clown-tier. Almost everything about them is under-tuned and could massively be buffed.
Myer & Freddy could also use reworks but they should be good reworks, Not twin-level QOL changes.
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@Sandt1985 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/411433/twins-are-still-super-sluggers
First, the devs said the rework was scrapped except the quality of life number changes, so invincibile Victor is no more.
Second, I think its time for the community to be mature about this and accept that Twins and Oni and the slugging killers. It's how they were designed and its not going away. Some killers are better at some things then others/ The twins just happen to be good at slugging. The only way to prevent that as a whole is to forever remove slugging from the game, and that simply isnt ever going to happenI agree. i wish they would buffed slugging a little bit. slugging in current dbd feels like hooking with extra steps in most games then an actual win condition that killer can push for.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/411427/rip-ultimate-weapon
at least pig can still use the perk properly to get head-pops if the player is competent. that is really nice.
if you say so. I am going miss having info on Oni, Doctor and Singularity. Oh well.
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@VomitMommy said:
That change is just terrible. One try 32 meters around the locker.
Ultimate weapon was so good, because you could always find a chase. It fails to do that now, at least unreliable.
Screaming is worse in most situations than aura reveal, but Ultimate weapon was so good to find hinding survivors. It's terrible at that now.
Can't you just make it, so effect is still your Terror radius, but effect stops after first scream?
That way it can't be abused by fast killers, but still does its job at reliable search for next chase.at least pig can still use the perk properly to get head-pops if the player is competent. that is really nice.
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@Blueberry said:
Not quite meta but popular. I think Endurance and Brutal Strength are ridiculously overrated. They’re feel good perks that I think people feel have way more of an impact than they actually do compared to alternatives.
brutal strength is like anti-fun looping perk for survivor because the killer that use it only use it to zone pallet breaks in the corner of the map. it is free hit if killer has correct movement logic so your disincentives from using certain pallets when the killer has it. Lethal pursuer is probably my favourite perk as survivor to face. I love it when killers use a perk that disappears faster then hex totems. the perk screen always makes me chuckle when I see Lethal pursuer.
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wow so ultimate weapon is only good for camping now. that's crazy. dead perk. you hook someone, bbq shows everyone. open a locker. if no one around, chase other people, if someone is around, you chase that survivor away from hook. Gloried Awaken Awareness.
So the question is, can you hold victor hostage still or can recall victor? If you recall victor on survivor's back, that is major buff. that was 1 of key issues of twins. If not, then rework failed address 1 of their major issues. The only other issue that twins still has is picking up survivors from super far that hold-w. What would helped is switch button to switch victor and Charlotte position. this gives option for killer to slug but doesn't force it on the killer to do every time allowing them to quickly hook survivors like every other killer.
Other than that. uninteresting changes.
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@caligraph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3702694#Comment_3702694
ds is practically the same since the new animation takes so long. I think its about 3.7 seconds now.
it is not the same at all. it was 1.4 seconds. now it is 3.7. that's crazy for m1 killer catch-up. it is back to being a 20 second-waste time button hold-w for killers.
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@vBlossom_ said:
No, it shouldn't be reverted, as killers got +10 seconds to gen time (gen takes 12% longer time basekit, basically) and nerf to medkits and healing at all:
- Longer healings - healing took 16 seconds, now 24 seconds,
- All medkit give one self-heal,
- Bothany reworked into not synergizing with medkit,
- CoH nerfed to not allow self-heal
Why do you think it would be good to easily give -5.5% penalty per injured/dying survivor?
I don't think, given above changes, that killers should have another easy-value perk next to PainRes / Pop / Lethal / NTH / Grim.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3702694#Comment_3702694
So DS going from 3 seconds to 5 seconds would balance making Thana much more oppressive in current state of the game?
I don't think so.i just want a -4% healing penalty per injured survivor back. in current numbers, it would be 5%.
with the nerf of sloppy, exposed type builds are impossible to play as on killer. expose perks suck too much. they're either hexes which are worthless or timed effects like dragon grip, myc, hubris etc. Sloppy was only good expose-type perk. It prevents people from healing so all your future chases were 1 hit downs.
So DS going from 3 seconds to 5 seconds
DS is slowing killer down passively for no effort.
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weird how they revert decisive strike but don't revert thana for killer.
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you get absolutely NO INDICATION of when this happens and it just gets you by surprise (or you don't even realize that it
happened). This is an nonredeemable part of the killer, so my suggestion is.Yes you do. your teammate or you get a lock-on stack.
Survivors get no feedback when they are being tracked after a Scan or when they have a Claw-Trap.
Acquire a claw trap is being tracked. it is like implicit to the ability. It is like saying, You don't know that wesker's infection is slowing you down at -8% when you red. This is a great excuse.
The "short bursts of stealth" is not a bad mechanic, however, it usually comes with a warning, (e.g.: Chucky's footfalls and laughing, Demogorgon's screams, etc.) so it doesn't feel the best when Skull Merchant just pops out of nowhere.
The whole point of stealth is to not know someone is stealth. Chucky's stealth and Demo are perfect examples of terribly designed stealth. Her stealth is how every stealth mechanic should work. the fact that it doesn't work that way is alarming.
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3702272#Comment_3702272
Oh yea in that case I can see her being strong.
But I am talking about not running her best addons.
I am strugguling with her even running like Apple addons which are considered pretty nice. Survivors in my games don't care about being injured, they will loop you to Oblivion unless you get your power in chase and that is limited and they can also juke it offten or hide behind objects.
Also I hate how you hit them with your power, they even do their scream or cough sound "ehh ehh!" and nothing happends like what the hell.
that is why i run double infection increase add-on's to instantly break people. Most people cleanse in my games. I only run a single off-meta perk which is monitor&abuse on her. for some reason, it makes survivors cleanse.
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otz rates her highly because iri seal+devotee amulet. 60 second of corrupt purge 5 times per match with deadlock is strong.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3701973#Comment_3701973
I get that win streaks are lost that way, since it's a draw and not a win. But yeah, I consider a 2k a draw and not a loss. Survivors objective is to escape, killers objective is to get kills. Killers and survivors each get two of those, which sounds like a draw to me.
draws rarely exist in games. every game has objective and one side must complete objective to win. for example, in chess, the goal of the game is to checkmate king. draw in chess only occur when neither side checkmate the king. this is called stalemate.
in dbd, there is no such thing as stalemates. one side escape or dies. that is all there is to it. killer consider winning when they kill 3 or 4 survivors. As a result of what killer consider winning, everything that is not winning is a survivor win. this account 4 escapes, 3 escapes, 2 escapes.
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@glitchboi said:
I like Wesker and I think his techs are great forms of skill expression. Wesker hugtech is incredibly hard to pull off with the skill floor of it being far higher than Blight's hugtech.
The only thing I'd like to see nerfed about Wesker is his ability to tunnel survivors off hoops efficiently with uroboros due to Hindered.
idk, nerfing blight's hug tech is disabling nurse's ability to look up or down to shorten/speed up blinks.
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@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3701604#Comment_3701604
Why on earth is 2k a loss?
survivors completed all 5 gens and 2 or more escaped through exit gate. that is the objective of the game. this is how win-streaks are lost. just look at SupaAlf winstreak and momo's blight win streak.
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@Blueberry said:
These would all be really bad for the health of the game.
imagine breakout with 40% wiggle bar completion. perhaps they invent that as a perk. every hook state, you get a default wiggle progression of 10/15/20% filled.
It is going enforce killer to slug especially if the team uses breakout+boil over.
A perk that already is attempting to force this gameplay is Decisive Strike.
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2k is a loss. yes.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3700909#Comment_3700909
It’s very difficult to balance I give them that. They almost have it though. If they removed the lock in limit it would be perfect OR if they brought passive condemn back that would be perfect. (Not both though of course)
As One Pump Willie said “Currently there are no downsides to tapes in her current form. Only upsides”
This is a problem. Makes it hard to do anything about. Last night I went against at least a 3man on Badham. I had 5 hooks. All escapes. Most of my TVS were offline. My chases were short, lots of pressure but they used resilience against me. Smart.Remote Control sadly wasn’t too useful that found due to most of my TVs being offline for so long
i disagree. she's so far off where she needs to be in every single dimension except TV teleporting. TV teleporting is ok for m1 play.
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BVHR fixed hostage 3 gen gameplay for survivor. Where's the fix for hostage stealth for killer? I agree with OP post that late-game stealth needs to get nerfed.
as compensation, buff survivor's overall stealth in early to mid-game such as increasing walk speed of survivor so they can hide scratch marks better. buffing crouch speed could also be good. maybe helps a little bit vs hag and pyramid head trails.
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you degrade in rank by losing. If your stuck or unable to degrade in rank, it is because that rank is exact rank where you belong.
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I strongly disagree on point #2. indoor maps benefit SWF more than soloq. This is because the ability track TR is significant worse on indoor maps then outdoor maps. with outdoor maps, i can tell how close killer is and what direction they're coming from. On indoor maps, that is way harder. It is almost guessing game for soloq to play indoor maps.
Gideon's a prime example of that. it is double story map where tracking killer is really difficult on soloq. in a 4 man swf, survivor can always work on opposite floor that killer is at. It means that if swf coordinate correctly, you will rarely ever get interrupted on a gen or get opening hits purely because your never on the correct floor to do so.
Midwich is like this as well.
RPD is one of most notorious maps for hold-w and pre-running. You can legit win entire game as swf by just pre-running on like 60% of killer cast. the killer has no options other than to follow narrow path ahead of him.
Lery and Hawkin are disliked maps because most killer powers are not good in congested line of sight blockers. Nurse, huntress…. pinhead, singlurarity, billy, blight, oni and so on.
The only part that I like about indoor maps is lack of jungle gyms, shack and Long-wall tiles. Unfortunately, the god pallets replace those tiles, so it is not like survivor don't have easy loops to run.
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@ad19970 said:
This is just a straight buff to killers. Time has shown again and again that buffs alone won't work. Tunneling and camping need to be nerfed as well.
Not to mention that the debuff values you are suggesting are way too high.
well he's describing a perk. Scourge hook:Gift of pain. unlikely they'll make that perk relevant.
they already have perks to nerf tunneling. it is called decisive strike and off the record. the thing is, if your going nerf tunneling then give me counter-play towards said perks. Like I should be able to slug decisive strike user and bleed them out. there should be correct play from killer to avoid the perk. right now it is no counter-play other than not tunneling which is a problem because of efficiency issue of not doing so. lose/lose.
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@Predated said:
So, I thought it would be altered out of the PTB. I know that Unknown had another exhaustion effect, didnt know too much about it, but I was consistently exhausted whenever he got close.
Because its genuinely ridiculous. If you're with 8 meters of ANY husk, you get 10 seconds of exhaustion.
Berus Toxin on Huntress, gave 30 seconds of exhaustion after she hit someone with her hatchet. And while that was basically exhausting them forever, it did require a hit first.
If Unknown drops a husk in chase, you're basically permanently exhausted. And by the time you get rid of it (by somehow walking 10 seconds in chase) he can spawn another one.
I would understand 5 seconds somewhat, you can walk that off, but 10 seconds exhaustion for literally doing nothing? Insane.you can detach loops. the only problem is figuring out when he is going to summon husk which requires a lot of knowledge from survivor part.
Normally they give UI/Graphics to survivor related to something specific like that. this time they omitted UI from survivor but killer has UI for husk. Maybe the color of his body or hand changes as Husk charges up. alternatively maybe there is like glowing gas on the killer. creating good visuals is difficult to nail for video game characters.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3700530#Comment_3700530
"And SURELY shes better now than Sadako 1.0"
I'm actually also pretty sure most the Sadako community would disagree with this. I think a lot of people think Sadako took two steps forward from 1.0 to 2.0 and then 3 steps back going into 3.0.
"So how do you want them to make her better? They cant buff her condemn
because then she becomes way to oppressive and its Dead by Sadako again.
Imo they made her as balanced as it gets."Well firstly, you make it sound like her Condemn is on the verge of oppressive. Most people would agree it's not. More like on the verge of barely useful.
She currently has on the verge of non existent anti loop, a "stealth" that isn't actually stealth, a mild slow down, and an actually quite good map traversal that is controlled by survivors. We have two routes we can go with this. We can either improve the Condemn but continue to leave her in a super weak state in all those other categories to compensate, or the other route which is keep the Condemn where it's at but improve those other areas.
Most Sadako players would prefer the Condemn route as it's actually her distinguishing factor that makes her game play unique.
If we go this route she needs more agency over survivors removing their Condemn. There are multiple different ways we could go about this. I personally prefer hits destroying tapes again. You could instead of that also make Ring Drawing base kit to give more risk to just holding onto tapes as there's currently zero punishment. Then there's the 3rd way we could do which is what we had previously which was slow passive condemn gain while holding a tape to prevent just sitting on a gen with a tape.
Now if you really don't want to go that route and you want to keep the Condemn where it's at then we can go the other route which is lessening some of those other problematic areas.
- Her stealth isn't a real stealth, remove the "lullaby".
- Remove the TV auras other than their TV drop off location. This removes surprise teleport intercepts.
- Remove all slow down from Manifesting. It's so pitiful you almost can't even call it anti loop. It's weak enough to at least remove the negative.
- While were at it increase the duration of the passive invisibility after Manifesting to allow it to actually be an anti loop if you're skilled enough to time the direction changes at flickering intervals.
She currently has on the verge of non existent anti loop, a "stealth" that isn't actually stealth, a mild slow down, and an actually quite good map traversal that is controlled by survivors. We have two routes we can go with this. We can either improve the Condemn but continue to leave her in a super weak state in all those other categories to compensate, or the other route which is keep the Condemn where it's at but improve those other areas.
my ideal is that each part of her kit is strong on even scale. what defines what should be oppressive is how killer allocates add-on's to make her oppressive in the area they select.
Consider the following 10 add-on's and their combinations.
Video tape copy(Old iri tape)+ring drawing: Condemn increase add-on's
Remote control+Bloody finger nails: TV teleportation add-on's
News paper+Mother's mirrior/Telephone: Manifiest add-on's[Decloak add-on's]
Clump of hair+Rekiro's watch. Steallth improvement add-on's.
The killer base-kit should be passable in reward when they use a certain element of their kit. When they equip an add-on to boost that particular part of the kit, that part of the kit should be oppressive.
For example, I should be able condemn people with 0 add-on's at base-kit but in order to my curse oppressive, I should need to run ring drawing and iri tape in say old iteration to make it truly potent. Right now condemn add-on are really bad on average because base-kit for condemn is awful.
TV should teleporting should be passable at base-kit but what should push it into oppressive territory is bloody finger nails and iri remote control.
Her anti-loop invisibility should be passable without add-on's, old newspaper, Mother mirror and telephone should push it over edge. currently anti-loop is trash so running add-on to boost an ineffective anti-loop kit makes little sense.
The last set of add-on are suppose improve her stealth like clump of hair should reduce her lullaby by 4 meters alongside invisibility threshold distance and rekiro's watch is suppose to give you this passive phasing so it is harder to see her coming in open field. Currently nobody sees these add-on as useful enough to put them in a build to improve her outside chase stealth. as a result nobody runs them.
current Sadako is lopsided on TV teleportation while all her other gameplay styles are ineffective at base-kit with add-on doing little remedy to improve said base-kit. an ideal state for Sadako or any killer is for many add-on to be viable and many play-styles to be relevant. there is always going to be bias preference of add-on called "Meta add-on's" but every game has meta upgrades. there is always going to be something that dominates all others either because it is empirically the best or the player has bias preference to that play-style. sometimes many play-styles are valid but the player bias chooses one over other because they like it more for x reason.
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@_Onyx_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3700715#Comment_3700715
My point was, it's not like GF has nothing going for him in his kit. M1 Killers will always struggle, no matter what. But GF requires knowing the fundamentals at a high level, plus also knowing his power in and out. You're right, he does require a lot of effort, but minimising that effort in the change ideas you have suggested is too far.
Can you go into detail how his add-ons are good as is?
Coz I am struggling to see why his add-ons should stay as they are. He has dual effect add-ons that are split into different ones, when they could easily be one add-on. His number increases could be better. And the ones that reward doing well with him, should be replaced with helping him get into that position, and not expect you to be in that position already like they do now. This is my reasoning for an add-on pass again. To elevate his gameplay with a wide selection to choose from, but at his core, he plays the same.
i already did in first post. the only add-on I omitted is purple drop-leg. the speed add-on. there is a lot of add-on that can provide good value in average match but like I said. he is not particular strong to take advantage of any of add-on's.
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@_Onyx_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3700699#Comment_3700699
I know that, but they shouldn't touch anything about his kit until his add-ons are in a really good state. Otherwise you end up with a situation like Onryö where they have to keep reworking it.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3700648#Comment_3700648
His power is in a state right now where it's actually good and well designed, but suffers from SWF being SWF. Solo's don't usually play the game with confidence and aggression (regardless of their level - it all depends on their perk choice) so GF can usually get those Marks and free hits. Then the chases becomes easier as the match goes on.
Giving a Killer free intel that perks would normally give is a very risky change. I get you both want to make it so GF isn't wasting his time trying to get the sneaky play off, but giving that intel to him for free isn't a good idea. It'd be different if the Survivors that are Marked reveal their aura when performing conspicuous actions at base kit, coz then you've earned the intel. But just slapping intel onto his stealth power doesn't sound good. It just makes the players not need to use their brains.
@Devil_hit11 @RpTheHotrod Do you both know that GF already has ways to play strategically with his power against higher level teams. Even if the sneaky play doesn't grant a free hit, you can make areas a dead zone quickly. And on top of that, you can choose to slow burn with his power, gens are always gonna fly by at higher levels, so playing the long con, as it were, and stalking but not pressuring them if the area they're in isn't one you'd like to defend, you can do that. Only commit to them once they've come to you. I'm not talking about 3-genning btw, I'm saying you don't always have to be the one actively trying to get the drop on them. High level players are crazy bold, you can use that boldness against them by not always trying to get the sneaky plays and free hits, instead opting to punish their confidence by snowballing. Good Survivors will always adapt, so if they start to realise what you're doing, you can then switch to the sneakier plays and then get those free hits. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying GF is amazingly strong, but he really don't need these intel buffs to his kit that you guys are suggesting.
Do you both know that GF already has ways to play strategically with his power against higher level teams. Even if the sneaky play doesn't grant a free hit, you can make areas a dead zone quickly.
i mean every killer can do that. most of the killer do that better then GF. Billy for example can play strategically and camp around hooks with an instant down. no marking required.
I know that, but they shouldn't touch anything about his kit until his add-ons are in a really good state. Otherwise you end up with a situation like Onryö where they have to keep reworking it.
His add-on are already in a good spot. It is just that his base-power is not relevant enough to use them in effective manner. Ghostface is suppose to be like a strategical assassin-type 4vs1 killer. I just don't think he is too effective at doing that in average regular gameplay. You really have to work hard as GF to produce wins.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3700476#Comment_3700476
His chase power is definitely a problem. He essentially relies on catching people off guard, but the higher the MMR, the more of a problem catching anyone off guard is. One thing that sucks is when GF spends the extra time to try to sneak up to an area only to peak around a corner and find out the survivor working on the gen was on the OTHER side of the gen - no stalking is gained, and the survivor gets an easy head start. One thing I suggested was that while crouching, GF can see any survivors within 20 meters that are interacting with something. This would allow GF to better set up an ambush without having to reveal his position first. Do note, while 20 meters is a pretty good distance, those survivors MUST be interacting with something for it to work, so he can't use it to hunt down survivors who are hiding.
This would at least allow his extra time that it takes up to set up an ambush to stop getting trashed with no payoff just because of RNG of which side of a gen a survivor happens to be on.
your idea is similar to mine. He can only track hiding survivors that injured in my version. I am not sure how crazy he would be consider that other killer have better map mobility and better chase presence. he would have strong information tool but somehow i suspect that killers in modern dbd era almost need chase presence to be relevant. ghostface would be an interesting experiment on whether you can make a potent killer without any direct chase power and no mori.
@_Onyx_ said:
@Devil_hit11 Ghost Face does have an add-on problem. There are lots of them that give effects that are best grouped together. Yet using them doesn't boost you enough to warrant using up both slots. On top of the ones that are worth using, having to use both add-ons to give yourself a scenario counter or reward is terrible for a Killer that has no real pressure against Survivors that are switched on, have spotters, or are on a map with no mist and not enough LOS blockers.
You have to be careful with buffs to a Killer that can control how the team counters them. If Ghost Face were to Mark the whole team, or the majority of the team (which is possible) there's no real counter to the pressure he can gain when he has the perks and add-on synergy to go with it.
Doing an add-on pass is definitely the way to go with him, initially. If then he doesn't perform much better, then you look at his core kit to see what could be added or changed. Baby steps.
I don't like either of those two ideas. The first one makes the Survivors counter of hiding and evading while vulnerable non-existant. And the second provides too much intel for a Stealth Killer. If you aren't aware he's there, but he knows you're there, atm, it's great play on the GF's part .With your idea, it would remove any predictive play or game sense needed to play well at a higher level and would actually lower his skill-expression, ironically.
Ghost Face has skill expression in rewarding map knowledge, being able to bypass altruism in all scenarios, and constantly keep Survivors vulnerable from close and long range. Once players get good with GF, you really start to notice that although he is comparatively weak, he has a lot of strength that most M1 characters lack. After all, the most common thing to see in the DBD gameplay loop is mind games. Ghost Face excels at them, you can juggle a whole team with paranoia (Some maps excluded).
Doing an add-on pass is definitely the way to go with him, initially. If then he doesn't perform much better, then you look at his core kit to see what could be added or changed. Baby steps.
He already got an add-on pass. He had worst add-on than before on average.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3700388#Comment_3700388
Her current pick rate is 1.40% it use to be 2.7% not great but better than it is now. After 3 reworks you would think it would be much higher.
The kill rate is high sure but it was when it was sadako 1.0 but that doesn’t mean she’s in a good place.
billy was one of the most popular characters before he got nerfed. he was 3rd most popular character with 3rd highest kill-rate at one point in dbd history. his stats were something like 9% pick-rate with 75% kill-rate. this was before MMR. I am not really surprised that buffing one of most popular old characters would do that to the stats.
billy was one of 3 killers for why dbd took off as well. back when the game only had 8 killers. Huntress, Nurse and Billy were like most common killers in the game. the other killer were so demonstratively bad in comparison that barely anyone played anything else besides maybe Myer's tombstone or those Lery scratch mirror myer's builds. granted the balance of like trapper/wraith/hag/doc is much better now than in the past but the original 3 still triumph to this day. I think nurse is only killer that is A LOT less popular than before but this is in part because she is extremely punishing to play now which reduced her fun factor by a lot.
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Ghostface does not have add-on problem. A lot of add-on are really good. exhaust is good. gen regression is good. global aura reading is good. all 3 power recovery add-on are great. Philly is good.
Ghostface issue is no chase capacity. he has no tool in his kit that increases ability to chase or confirm downs when a survivor is marked. The best he has going for him is the element of surprise. the problem is that his marking weakens his element of surprise. While I do not think that it is inherently bad for his power to have counter-play, the reward in his ability too low compare many other killer that have more complicated kits with more dimensions in their ability.
ghostface needs power when he marks someone and more information in his kit to setup marks. The two ideas that to achieve that goal are following:
The first one, when ghostface marks a survivor, Ghostface can see footsteps of the survivor across the wall. they marked in white similar to Chucky's footsteps that survivor can see. the idea is that when ghostface marks a survivor, he can track his prey more easily and attempt to outsmart his opponent at loops.
The second idea is that when ghostface is night shroud, he can hear noise elements as visual indications around him in say 24-32 meter radius. What this allows ghostface to do is hear generators from very far away and setup angles to ambush more easily. This also helps him track injured survivors around him. He would get build-in Nurse Calling+Stridor making it very dangerous to be injured against him.
He is fun killer to play but he needs more complexity. more tools for the player to acquire more skill expression. the current kit is too simple. there is not enough complexity showcase depth mastery of his kit.
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@HexHuntressThighs said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3699932#Comment_3699932
Hex: Thrill Of The Hunt used to do this but it was considered far too strong and got nerfed.
i know. i am asking for add-on that is not a hex totem.
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an add-on that produces a loud noise notification when a survivor begins cleansing a hex:totem.
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that would remove his entire skill-floor and skill-cieling.
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@Starrseed said:
Absolutly it's time bhvr gets rid of there elitist you habe to have a good headset or.even a headset at all mindset
I would just imagining caption for spirit's phasewalk. you just see visual caption of her footsteps during the ability. Like killer instinct but for survivor. not a good idea.
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@GentlemanFridge said:
I'd say that's not really a Wesker issue.
As for why some killers have them, I'd argue the biggest reason is thematic. Huntress introduced the concept, and her marketing was themed around the lullaby. I believe the devs even hinted at it being a lullaby to soothe the Entity itself.
Huntress could just as easily have received a terror radius that has a lullaby sound. the lullaby is nerf to ban usage of terror radius perks on said killer.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3699157#Comment_3699157
"the proper way to play vs add-on is to just put tape into the TV at start of the game "
Disagree. You ignore it and do gens, except you saved them the time of having to grab a tape first. There's no downside not to holding a tape other than them running Ring Drawing and even then you made it even faster for them to go clear those stacks you give with Ring Drawing. The extra condemn you're gaining at the start from running Editing Deck/Ring Drawing is negated by the quicker rate at which you've allowed them to deliver a tape. You're also even giving up running Remote Control/Fingernail..which is a ton of value lost.
If they ran to drop tapes instantly at start, that would be great. But that's not what happens it reality. The only time you're getting everyone going to drop tapes immediately is against bad players. I care about winning against good players, not bad ones.
Let me put it this way. If you gave me the option of everyone starts with a tape base kit or no one starts with a tape base kit, I would take no one starts with a tape..and you're wasting an addon slot for it. It's a negative. This addon is bait.
that is where lock-in condemn mechanic does work. you can lock in few stacks from hooking survivors. specifically hook #2 or #3. It is not much but it does something. you prevent survivor from removing the condemn stacks which is why i said it mainly boosts her early game.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3699132#Comment_3699132
Those 2 free stacks are ignoring a lot.
The literal only difference between running Tape Editing Deck and not for early game, is that running the addon saves the survivors the time of having to pick up the tape first. IE helping them.
The bonus of hooking them with a tape is hoping for a very, very risky play with all pallets up and even if we assume your best case scenario of them messing up and you get that early down with them having a tape to get Ring Drawing value, this is negated by the fact that they are clearing their Condemn stacks faster than if you weren't running the addon since they already had the tape in their hand saving them depositing. So by running that addon over not, even in the better case scenario, you will lose more Condemn stacks on them than you're gaining.
And as I mentioned before this isn't even going into the negative of giving up addon slots for all this, so there's opportunity cost here.
So Tape Editing Deck might as well read by how it plays out, "You will have weaker Condemn build up early game and give up 2 addon slots for this in order to see the survivors auras for 6 seconds on tape delivery".
Also something to note. There's a current bug listed in the Bug Reports section that's pending referencing Ring Drawing apply both its current effect and its old effect. Which if this is accurate, it means people are seeing an artificial value with it currently that isn't intended.
the bonus of hooking them with a tape is hoping for a very, very risky play with all pallets up and even if we assume your best case scenario of them messing up and you get that early down with them having a tape to get Ring Drawing value
is it? most survivor when spawn into a trial are automatically glued to gens if they're good. the investment to walk around the map to put tape into the TV is often not worth the time investment. the add-on gains value through ignorance. at 0 stacks, the survivor is less willing to cleanse condemn. when you hook someone, they gain 1 stack of condemn so next survivor you begin chase, they will have 1 stack of condemn to lock-in and survivor after that, they will have 2 stacks. that is how those add-on gain value.
the proper way to play vs add-on is to just put tape into the TV at start of the game but that gives sadako an artificial corrupt intervention. it is a win/win. you get early game delay for no drawback or free condemn stacks. the add-on is something Wesker's Iri vial or Singularity Denied requisition form. you get free power value by survivor ignoring but dealing with said add-on makes your early game worse as survivor. This by all means does not make her good. I would not use these add-on for her but It would be good if these add-on were just base-kit. Maybe every killer gets special version of early game collapse where their power is stronger.
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i am not entirely sure but my understanding of chase logic is that it is based off bloodlust. if bloodlust build up higher, it takes longer to decay therefore the chase takes longer to lose. If bloodlust is lower, often as a result of not having LOS than i think the decay is faster.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3699082#Comment_3699082
Y’all are making it sound like Tape Editing Deck is adding extra early game slow down when it’s not. At the start without this addon they are picking up a tape immediately anyway and having the tape at start not only doesn’t slow them down extra, it’s actually slowing them down less because they aren’t looking for a tape pick up at start. Just because they start with a tape doesn’t mean now they have to go drop it off at the start of the game. This addon is literally doing the opposite effect of what y’all are saying it’s good for. It’s giving you a worse early game, not better. Starting them with tapes is a bad thing, not a good thing.
I agree with you on most your other points in general. Except I just think those are good maps for her where she’s actually solid, no where near OP on them.
if you don't drop tape, you get 2 free stacks of condemn on entire team for hooking. the reward and punishment for playing poorly vs add-on is just too irrelevant to matter.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3699018#Comment_3699018
Compared to most killers she’s one of the weaker ones for early game with all pallets still up. You’d also get faster condemn stacking spending that time differently. Also running ring drawing means you’re giving up bloody fingernail which is an unreasonable drop to me. Also allowing them to cleanse that extra condemn even faster than normal at the start since they’ve already got the tapes in hand counteracting the extra spread you got from ring drawing, even if you do get those early downs. Just so much more negative here with so much more risk for probably not more return and definitely less return when we realize the addon slot given up for all this.
in my opinion, radianthero is one of the reasons why Sadako got this rework. that is why i am not seeing any changes on her because he is saying the character is good. virtually only aspect I agree with him is Gideon's meat packing plant and Midwich Elementary school being strong/unfair maps for Sadako to win on. She's like scratch mirror mori myer's where she works well on two maps and under-perform on every other map. In my opinion, this is not healthy position for her. a killer being free win on every other map and killer dominates on 2 maps is opposite of well-balanced.
Compared to most killers she’s one of the weaker ones for early game with all pallets still up.
Tape editing deck improves her early game because it gives survivor a secondary objective to scatter around the map to put tape in. It is only part of her kit that i consider to be good slowdown. It is something a lot of player have said that survivor should have secondary objective at the start of the game, so they cannot just rush gens as soon as they spawn. that is what radianthero is talking about. from my personal experience, ring drawing is lackluster condemn build-up. I find more value from running Video-tape editing copy because +2 extra meters gives more opportunity to TP mid-chase to build condemn stacks if you min-max radius. Bloody finger nails and Iri remote control provide more value as secondary add-on choices over tape editing+ring drawing combination.