Devil_hit11
Devil_hit11
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@StarstruckFrog said:
Also you mentioned Memento blades breaking the throw animation. That's another bug I forgot to mentioned.
Another significant bug I forgot to mention: Macmillan Estate Shack's boarded up windows are still completely solid and impossible to throw through, conveniently ever since the rework. It sucks.
yep, I dislike that animation bug. hope it gets fixed.
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personally, i think overdrive is failed mechanic for billy. it is better to just remove it and give billy -0.5 second charge time on the chainsaw.
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the summary of post is that base throwing mode is unrewarding? Wouldn't it just make more sense to bring malicious murder to have -1 laceration meter so that base throwing mode retains similar strengths for player that want to focus on improving his base throwing mode?
i feel like his base throwing mode is still decent even with 8 hits. I think only thing I miss about old trickster is his iri add-on where he reloads automatically after main event. it was nice little reward for being precise with his ability. even then, it is not a huge loss.
The Main Event gauge will lose 1 Charge for any Blade you miss when Main Event is not charged or activated.
revert Throw Rate to Pre-7.4.0 Version. (Base throw speed of 3 Blades per second [0.33s windup,] with each throw decreasing throw windup by 0.01s, reaching a maximum of 0.25s windup or 4 Blades per second after 8 throws.)
these two changes cannot work together. if your not holding down the button, you'll never benefit from throwing rate increase but holding button prompt you into losing main event stacks from missing. they're contrary changes that entirely go against trickster's entire gameplay. It is not wise to force other people into how you play trickster onto other players.
Overall he's fine where he is at. Just fix his throwing animation on memento blades. that thing is still annoying. I use add-on but it is unpleasant to look at.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3707833#Comment_3707833
Aye, I've queried before regarding just having different boon ranges, I think the main issue is with the chime and blue aura effect. If you have it so it is no longer clear where the boundaries of boons lies it's puts onus on having the pay attention ot the buff symbols. I don't think it's really a problem myself, but it does make trying to communicate "I have Circle of Healing in this boon! Go further in" more difficult in soloQ.
So I figure to get around that limitation and just keep it simple, use the smallest radius. Then there is no ambiguity and confusion.
Regarding scourge hooks, yeah I also like that idea. I still reckon additional scourge hook for Hangman's Trick would be a really nice buff for that perk. Makes its passive more effective, and allows it to support other Scourge Hook perks.
i think even if you buff boon to 28 meter radius, all of them, they still will be unpopular perks. maybe in 32 meters, they gain a very small amount of traction where they become niche strong if SWF uses 2 boons.
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@UndeddJester said:
I was thinking about boons, and one major problem in both creating new boons and balancing them is they're all limited by the 24m range, making some of them pretty useless (Dark Theory is a major front runner), but simultaneously can't be increased due to boons like Circle of Healing and Exponential potentially becoming problematic. This largely comes from the issue that you can equip multiple boons, and they all get placed on one totem…
Creating a mechanism to allow different boon ranges or multiple totems to be booned gets awkward and clumsy pretty quick, so we get stuck with this limitation out of a need to "Keep it simple stupid".
Proposal
So with that in mind, how about allowing boons to have different ranges… but with multiple boons simply make it so the smallest range boon takes priority. This would free up boon ranges to be buffed as needed to make them useful, and give meaningful trade offs to stacking multiple boons…
Overall this gives boons far more wiggle room to be balanced and for new boons to be created, creating a healthy template for boons in general. You CAN make a strong boon with a short range, while also allowing weak boons with a large range, and allows build creativity in managed those respective trade offs.
I'm also thinking Boon: Dark Theory needs an entirely new effect, but that's a discussion for another thread.
you can make boon apply at different ranges on 1 totem. it will just look weird because you'll see shadow step icon but no circle healing icon despite being in the boon radius.
I had similar idea with scourge hook perks where lessen scourge used perks get more scourge hooks. Like monstrous shrine gets 6 outside scourge hooks while pain res get 4. lowest one applies if both get equipped.
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3707783#Comment_3707783
It is really not. Calling a perk terrible because its bit situational but has a good potential isn't fair.
Terrible perk is for example something like Unrelenting or Beast of Pray where you will never get value out of it 99% of the time (not counting bonus BP).
i am not kidding, i would rather run unrelenting then terminus.
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because it is a terrible perk.
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@FrostySeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3707567#Comment_3707567
She destroys uncoordinated Survivors extremely easily while also simultaneously getting destroyed by good teams. That alone makes her a prime target for needing a rework.
so what would the rework do? Make her destroyed by uncoordinate teams and get destroyed by good teams?
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@Neaxolotl said:
Why don't we just instantly sacrifice those survivors like last survivors on hook, it'll be the same results and way faster for everyone
that was on the ptb. for some reason, survivors label that as strong. hope they enjoy being on the floor then.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Background Player is the most annoying perk in the game, without question. I know it makes developing perks more difficult, but you have to play the "what if multiple people in the trial have the perk" game with any survivor perk concept.
"what if multiple people in the trial have the perk" game with any survivor perk concept.
i think this concept has killed a lot of perks. It makes them paranoid in making any survivor perk good where a perk like "Better than New" becomes "What if all 4 survivor use this and get gen speed/vault bonuses". Looks too strong, "Let's make it super safe."
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3707534#Comment_3707534
I consider both useless and won't either of those version, so I will rather give suggestion how to make that perk valid. They won't listen to it as to any idea, but worth the try.
they already have plan to change the perk. my feedback is to keep change 1 but not change 2. your probably right on not listening to any ideas. probably wasted effort.
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@fussy said:
Change that makes me want to quit dbd. 3 years of learning killer, hundreds of hours wasted, just to throw it in the trashcan.
What we have in the end:
1) Blight became boring to play as. He is just force a pallet > give a hit on a way to the next one. Minimum mindgames, almost no cool stuff you can do with him now. Just a bump logic train. Probably rip to any Blight montages as well.
2) Blight now relies on a speed addons even more. These addons are literally his antiloop now (in the loops, where you still can somehow use his power)
3) Almost every second filler pallet now is impossible to play around, you just force it as m1 most likely. Insane decision just to lower skill ceiling for no reason.
4) Flicking near the object is almost impossible now, because Blight will bump into the object as soon as you will turn your camera at 15 degrees to it. This also makes him waste 2-4 rushes just to go out of doorways or some tiny textures you need to past without wasting rushes. If you really gonna kill this character like that, at least fix this point.
5) Blight without speed is too easy to go against now. He was one of the favourites killers to go against, but now it's even kinda boring. You just know he will never catch you in half of the loops and wait until he'll use m1.
6) Changes to Stone and Soul Chemical are awful. Just revert it. They were not even good addons on PTB.
And this is exchange for not slide few textures on some maps, instead of fixing this textures? No, thanks.
Sure Blight is still strong killer (but no way he is seconds now imo), and pure bump logic will help newer players to be even better Blight, but it's just different character now.
You guys should have said "Yo, Blight's Hugtech was a bug, but in the more than 3 years that he has been in the game, he has managed to become a part of his kit. We saw how ability to use hugtech made his gameplay more diverse, deeper and more interesting. We see how the players have made this an essential part of it, wasted time on learning to use it and we respect that." But seems like not in this universe.
It was a great time spent with you, my speedy boy, thank you.removing hug tech in my opinion is like removing nurse's ability to look up and look down to stop blinks. the killer has less control over the ability.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3707055#Comment_3707055
i am saying that this pre-nerfed aura version is still usable. The upcoming version where it does not follow killer radius and only stays at locker within 32 meters for 15 seconds is dead perk.
Upcoming version is definetly useless, but even current version is just bad. It's not good as aura reading perk, there are simply better alternatives for almost every situation.
That's why I would use current system, just make it scream. Exactly as I wrote before…
I want this version of the perk with scream. Unfortunately, BVHR already has plans to kill the perk if they add scream back by making the perk stationary. Between making perk stationary and this version with aura, I'd rather take aura.
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@zarr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3707231#Comment_3707231
I literally proved you wrong with the exact same stats you yourself tried to use an argument
Which stats are those? I didn't refer to any specific set of stats, just saying "pub matches". And what exactly did you prove wrong? I said they have high average kill rates in pubs, I didn't say they are top 5 average kill rate or whatever (which they on Nightlight however are, and which isn't a very meaningful distinction anyway because the differences between the top 5 and top 20 can be as little as 2%). Now you may argue 58-60% is not "high" for your terms, but that would be a completely different and mostly meaningless argument.
compared to other killers then yeah, mostly just their dedicated mains are playing
"Mostly" is different from "only". Again, there's millions upon millions of matches of DbD happening every month, all of which is captured in those stats. 1% of that is still tens of thousands of matches. I hope you don't believe only dedicated Twins mains are the ones playing those matches.
You literally gone back on stats from 2 years ago to salvage your argument
"Salvage" what argument? My argument wasn't they had a 60% average kill rate in high MMR brackets last week - they may very well and likely did still have high average kill rates, but we simply didn't have those stats last week -, it was that they have high average kill rates, which whatever stats we have do showcase. The most recent stats on killer-specific high MMR kill rates are from September 2022. Which, just to note, is less than two years ago. More importantly however, again, no changes to the Twins had happened since then, so there is no reason to not use those stats to describe the state of Twins prior to this update.
This argument is completely fruitless and futile. You supposedly don't even believe Twins were in a bad spot strength-wise and needed buffs, and yet you still keep going around these asinine points that would only be relevant if you did believe that. And regardless, the only actual point of my posting was that the 10-second recall time is broken. If you don't contest me on that, I don't care what you take issue with. Go on thinking that you got me good, for all I care.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3707239#Comment_3707239
You falsely construed the difference from pre to post-update Twins to be less significant than it is. It went from 36 to 16 seconds total, a 20-second reduction, more than 50%. That is meaningful. Imagine if Spirit's power cooldown was halved.
Whether the 10-second recall time is something they need or let alone something that makes them "bearable to play" is not something I care to debate. The devs have already confirmed it's a bug and that they too believe the 30 seconds are necessary, so I don't care to convince anyone anymore.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3707242#Comment_3707242
Fun for the killer player, if they want easy wins, sure. I for one don't find it fun even when playing as Twins - I have always enjoyed their macro focus and the fact that you have to manage your Victor downtime and get good value out of any time you have him available for. With Victor being nigh-constantly available now, playing them is mindlessly easy. The snowball now builds itself if you are capable of hitting your pounces, which if you just run up to survivors and bite their ankles takes little to no skill and has little to no counterplay.
You can still recall Victor when he's on a survivor's back, it'll just take 30 seconds instead of 10 until you are able to again. If you find that unfun, unlucky. I will say that Twins are not a popular killer for a reason, so I definitely don't disagree that ideally BHVR would do more to make them more fun for more players (on both sides). But the oppressively short Victor cooldown is not it. I had a simple suggestion earlier in the thread for an improvement I would like to see for them, but yeah, it will likely be many months or years before they touch them again, if ever.
I have always enjoyed their macro focus and the fact that you have to manage your Victor downtime and get good value out of any time you have him available for.
There is like 30 other m1 killers to play. The downtime does not detract from you playing m1 Charlotte. Only empowers killer that actively use the power properly.
You can still recall Victor when he's on a survivor's back, it'll just take 30 seconds instead of 10 until you are able to again. If you find that unfun, unlucky. I will say that Twins are not a popular killer for a reason
First of all, the cooldown is 20 seconds/40 seconds because 10 second added into regrow time on top of recall timer. The reason is that 36 seconds is too long. Even 20 seconds is still long. Sure it is improvement from 36. It would be better if it was 15 seconds. Maybe an add-on to buff regrow time could be useful.
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i don't think they'll buff it after nerfing COH.
A perkk idea that i thought to buff chest builds is following:
Tool Goblin:
When you open a chest, Tool Goblin activates for 30 seconds.
Items that you use do not consume charges.
Tool Goblin deactivates after the 30 seconds have elapsed.
The idea is to encourage survivor to open chests to get more use out of the item. you can use another item you brought in the trial to activate the perk.
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with good killer updates, swf is possible to balance. buffing weaker killers and improving killer perk variety is how you balance swf.
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@zarr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3707126#Comment_3707126
I already addressed this point earlier in the thread. "Unbound" means not bound to Charlotte or a survivor. It goes without saying that Victor has to not be bound to Charlotte in order to be able to recall him, so it's obvious the reason "unbound" is specified here is that it pertains Victor not being tied to a survivor. That change had also already been in on the PTB, and yet Victor could not be recalled while latched onto a survivor, further suggesting this is not what is meant here. And finally, if this were intended to also apply when Victor is latched onto a survivor, there would not be a 10-second timer until you can recall, because that is not "at any point". What this patch note refers to is recalling Victor when he is parked around the map, which was not possible in the past.
If that isn't enough to convince you, take it from the devs themselves saying this is an unintended bug, surely then meaning they didn't intend for that note to imply otherwise.
What are these weird hills people are trying to climb up to me from. Even if it were "documented", what does that change about the fact that it's broken? What is your purpose with this?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3707192#Comment_3707192
Lies? You really love your death on this hill. I said they were considered top 5 comp (past tense), which they absolutely had been, and no changes had happened to them since then. I did not specify they were considered top 5 up until the very day the update dropped, but again, the primary reason why they may not have been is simply that they don't see regular play in comp anymore and are not considered much at all. That is not mutually exclusive, I hope you can understand that. You also only brought up one event to support your point. Again, Outrun The Fog for instance has Twins in their second-highest tier. The Arkade has them more heavily restricted than half the killers.
"20th kill rate" is disingenuous. Again, the difference between the top 10 cut-off and Twins is 2%. If you bracket the killers by kill rate, Twins would be on 8th place, and that's a very strict bracketing by 1% integers. And regardless, I said high kill rate, which 58-60% absolutely is (60% in the high MMR bracket in Sep. 2022). Top 3 kill rate on Nightlight in the last month, top 9 and top 4 respectively in the two months prior to that. Saying only the most dedicated mains are playing them is also disingenuous, or just showcasing your lack of understanding that even a pick rate of 1% correlates with a huge number when looking at millions upon millions of matches throughout a month.
But yes, let's say you got me good, I heinously lied about Twins' standing in comp and performance potential in pub matches, to serve my sinister plot to get this 10-second recall time reverted that they absolutely need to be able to compete.
the recall when victor is on the survivor is most fun part about the update. if I could keep anything in regards to the twin changes, it would be that singular change. the other changes are ok but unimportant.
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
I like 4.6 speed and main event offten a lot.
However he still needs some improvements. The fact that memento blades (brown add-on) is must have is sad.
agree, memento blade being mandatory feels bad. they should bring back melodious murder for -1 on laceration meter. Trickster is good but still needs very slight QOL.
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@zarr said:
There is an undocumented change that makes Twins almost as broken as they were on PTB: Victor can now be recalled some 10 seconds after latching onto a survivor. That means there is next to no downtime from Victor, he will always be out injuring and downing people without counterplay.
Twins are unbeatable right now. I hope that shadow buff is not there to stay.
Killer Update - The Twins
- The Visual Terror Radius accessibility setting will now include Victor’s grunts. (NEW)
- Victor will now glow red whenever he is vulnerable to being crushed and white when he is not. (NEW)
- Charlotte can now recall Victor at any point while he is unbound. (NEW)
- A new icon has been added to indicate the moment when Victor can be recalled. (NEW)
- Decreased the time it takes to switch back to Charlotte to 1.5 seconds. (was 3 seconds)
- Decreased the time it takes to unbind Victor to 0.75 seconds. (was 1 second)
- Decreased the time it takes to charge Victor’s Pounce to 0.85 seconds. (was 1 second)
- Increased the cooldown for Victor to come back after being crushed to 10 seconds. (was 6 seconds)
What do you mean by undocumented. The third sentence is, Charlotte can now recall victor at any point while he is unbound. The key word is at any point. It does not say when Idle. At least according to patch notes, the recall is intended.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3706768#Comment_3706768
Wait wait, did Mandy actually confirm that being able to recall Victor early is a bug? If that’s actually confirmed then Twins is back in the boring dumpster. That was the main thing actually making people enjoy playing her now as taking Victor hostage makes them ultra boring.
That actually kills any interest I had in Twins now if that is actually a bug and being reverted.
what do you mean that recalling victor is a bug? the entire rework is a bug? the summary of the entire rework is the ability to recall victor. On surface level, it is one line sentence but it massively improves twin's as a killer. I have no interesting play twins if that get removed.
The time with no power does feel bad but I’m more worried they’re gonna nerf them.
my current gameplay with twins is like downing two survivors as victor, picking one survivor up, the other person get picked up and doing that 3-4 times per game. I am not joking when i say that I am downing survivors 10-15 times per game.
every game is like 15 minutes long because I don't get rewarded for slugging. the survivor just gets free second chances and get ups because time efficiency to hook takes too long. it is same problem that i described for twins for long time and slugging general. slugging for bleed out is impractical for the killer but hooking is also impractical for twins. The result is extremely long matches even though killer is outplaying the survivor left right and center.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3706260#Comment_3706260
this version of ultimate weapon is better
How so? It is easily outclassed as an aura reading perk.
Single survivor, 3 seconds and you don't really know when. Kinda annoying doing 360 for 15 seconds at least for me. I would never use it over Nowhere to hide, BBQ etc.It is unique as screaming perk, if I want to simply find next chase and don't care about suprising that survivor, it would be good. It won't be best perk for information, but most reliable at getting you next chase. That would be unique to this perk.
i am saying that this pre-nerfed aura version is still usable. The upcoming version where it does not follow killer radius and only stays at locker within 32 meters for 15 seconds is dead perk.
The only thing i wish they changed about this version is make a screaming perk so that it does properly counter distortion instead of get countered by distortion.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3706105#Comment_3706105
One of the top few things that made Twins feel clunky and people not want to play them was that stun. Having to eat a 5 second DS stun on every successful down feels terrible. It's punishing you for playing well. Being able to swap during this, while feeling nice, doesn't fix the problem. Playing the Twins like this loses you games so you don't really want to be doing that. The chain hits is how she's good.
after playing a dozen games of twins, the only thing that i wish they would change is revert regrow time from 10→6 and reduce the time it takes to recall victor to 5 seconds. Other than that, Twin is perfect as is. dead weight time is somewhat annoying.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3706231#Comment_3706231
Deathslinger has the ringing sound when he ADS and you are within his LOS… granted it is quiet but it's loud enough to hear within a chase if you pay attention.
Huntress has nothing with the skin. No auditory warning whatsoever.
i am stereotyping the old slinger that has instant shots with no audio warning. The audio makes no difference for me because I memorize the charge time of the killer. I also know how to look behind me while running forward.
The lullaby should be default imo. i am perfectly fine with every lullaby being deleted and turning into a TR.
these changes are great and all but where is slinger revert?
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@VomitMommy said:
Just don't make it scream within 32 meters of a locker for ultimate weapon. That's going to be so bad.
Literally use current system → 15 seconds and first survivor, but make it scream. That's it. Boom, fixed.
this version of ultimate weapon is better. the only issue with it is that it does not counter distortion. I am equipping this perk on every killer now so i can dodge that silly decisive strike perk.
if they nerf it, then i am going to be tunneling people off-hook more.
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who needs deathslinger when we got huntress slinger. they're mocking slinger.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3706170#Comment_3706170
Yeah that's true. They are above my expectation as well because we got things that weren't really listed, essentially recalling Victor while attached and reduced stun on successful Victor down. Both of those are huge. Those were two of my biggest gripes about playing Twins. They feel significantly smoother and less clunky to play as well as being stronger. Holding Victor hostage should have never been a thing in the first place, it's bad design. The counter play is supposed to be just grouping up and keeping healed. They still have the annoying locker jumping which is bad design as well but I'll take what I can get, huge improvement. They are very strong now. I was really looking forward to Weighted Rattle though, sucks losing that.
I wish they buffed Madeines's gloves and Soyed milk. +2 meters and +6 meters is too low. it would be nice if they buffed these add-on to +6 and +10 meters. Victor is somewhat of good tracking power because you can switch, see if anyone is in the area with killer instinct then take back control of victor.
Dead hard is incredible potent vs twins in this iteration. In the ptb, victor could hit a survivor with dead hard then catch-up. in this iteration, dead hard becomes a victor grab. I agree with lockers being still an issue.
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@Blueberry said:
It looked disappointing on paper but after testing they kept in a few things not mentioned. The faster Victor recovery after a down and the recalling of Victor after attached much sooner. These feel amazing. Those were two of the big things making her feel bad to play. Last remaining feel bad is just the walk to pick up. She overall feels much smoother and less clunky to play which was what she needed. She's more punishing if you play bad with the longer Victor respawn cooldown but more rewarding if you play well and land your hits, as they should be. I think they're going to be much more popular now.
My only sadness is not getting the addon changes. I was excited for Weighted Rattle. Now it's basically just always auto default to Victor movespeed with throwing a Spinning Top in if you see lots of items. That's about it. Very little addon diversity with most of them being very bad. They need a full addon pass still.
at least silencing cloth is really good still. the changes are honestly above my expectations. No longer does swf just abuse victor and hold victor for 30 second+regrow time.
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ghostface, demogorgon, cenobite, freddy, hag.
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@adam1233467 said:
I can say he is a very bad killer
His halucinations teleports is better than hit UVX, and this is not good
And the pice of the cake, he is not console friendly
He is gonna join singularity, twins party for being the least played killers
i predict that he is going to be next artist. so far Nightlight says he has high pick-rate. for now, I am wrong. let's see how long it holds up.
@Blueberry said:
I'd put him in B tier and anything in B tier or below needs buffs imo.
agree. Another newbie-stomp type killer. I like scottjund idea for buffing him. Make it so that survivor has to not look at the killer. Maybe if you look at the killer, he hinders you. that sounds like a more unique design then current iteration.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3705443#Comment_3705443
"stacking sprint burst, decisive strike and off the record in my opinion
is same as stacking exhaustion perks. you get speed boost from SB,
distance from OTR and distance from DS from the stun. you can do this
with Dead hard, Lithe, Balance landing. any of them."Similar value in what you're using them for, I can agree.
"Chase perks for survivor in my opinion at their root source have singular purpose. Surviving tunneling. "
Disagree. They're for extending chases. Extending chases can be for preventing tunneling, but it is not defacto always just for tunneling.
Just because something can be used for preventing tunneling doesn't mean it is an anti tunnel perk. You're using these synonymously.
extending chases is same as DS/OTR. that is why I label them in a synonymous fashion.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3705407#Comment_3705407
"these two statements are contradictory. your saying that the player is
throwing the game for not running an exhaustion perk. This is implying
that they are mandatory for optimal results. "They are not contradictory statements. You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I did not say they are throwing the game by not running an Exhaustion perk. That is not a synonymous statement with what I actually said. Zero reason you wouldn't run the perk if you wanted to win, is not the same thing as saying it's required to win. Completely different meanings.
"I only see pain res and other forms of game-delay as rewards to
dynamically extend the game. pain res should honestly be base-kit for
killer so I don't need to use a perk slot on it. Tru3 has mentioned that
Pain res has one bad design where when you run out of tokens, your
disincentives from hooking. He prefers when the perk was unlimited use.
The other bad design is having situational hook placement. Just add
unnecessary rng where you can lose matches to rng. "I agree.
"My thoughts on exhaustion is that exhaustion perks are anti-tunnel perks
with no restriction. they are game-delay perks for survivor to delay
killer from killing them. Perks like decisive strike & off the
record have conspicuous actions drawbacks while exhaustion perks do not.
In practice, survivor would just want to run 4 exhaustion perks much
like killer run 4 game-delay perks. In that sense, they do have limited
use. Survivor exhaustion do take skill to use but the skill to use them
is easy. As a result, the survivor skill is often belittled in my
opinion."Exhaustion perks are not anti tunnel perks. You get their value by just being chased and normal game flow, whether you're being tunneled or not. I agree that if survivors were able to they would run 4 exhaustion perks. Exhaustion perks being limited to 1 per survivor I would not stretch as "limited use". I also think, generally speaking, saying Exhaustion perks take skill is a huge stretch. I guess you did say it's easy skill though.
stacking sprint burst, decisive strike and off the record in my opinion is same as stacking exhaustion perks. you get speed boost from SB, distance from OTR and distance from DS from the stun. you can do this with Dead hard, Lithe, Balance landing. any of them. Chase perks for survivor in my opinion at their root source have singular purpose. Surviving tunneling. They're easily most consistent anti-tunnel perks in the game. The popular ones have little to no drawback and often extend chases more so then OTR/DS.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3705368#Comment_3705368
Yeah I've been saying this for years that Exhaustion perks have flown under the radar way over tuned. I don't think they're mandatory for competitive survivor success though. I simply think (generally speaking, there are a couple exceptions) that they're not only over tuned but also unhealthy design. They're just always universally good. There's never a logical reason to not bring them other than just for the funsies.
Grey touches on it a bit but when you look at them perk for perk compared to other perks in the game the amount of value they give just blows everything else out of the water. It's to the point to where if your intent is winning there is zero reason you should ever not be running an Exhaustion perk. That statement right there should illustrate in and of itself how over tuned they are if that's a true statement, and it is.
Then we get to the unhealthy part. We look at meta killer perks and what do most of them all have in common? They all have stacks of restrictions, limitations, skill requirements ect ect. Pain Res for example which is generally considered the best killer perk in the game right now by most people. It requires hooks (skill), have to be on specific hooks (an added rng downside), requires you to hook and not slug (forcing a specific less optimal play style), only works on different survivors (forces a specific non-efficient play style again), and only activates a max of 4 times (a cap on how much value it can give regardless of skill or game length).
Was that an exhausting list to go through to get killer meta perk value? Whew
Alright let's look at survivor Exhaustion perks in general. What do "most" of them share? None of any of that.
We'll take Lithe for example since it's the most popular one. Requirement, find a vault…yup..that's it. The things that are literally everywhere. No negative, no skill requirement, no cap on activation's for the game..nothing but a small cooldown for game swinging effects.
I just don't see how anyone that is genuinely impartial and unbiased can look at this and not see a problem or at least a strong double standard in perk design.
"It's to the point to where if your intent is winning there is zero reason you should ever not be running an Exhaustion perk. That statement right there should illustrate in and of itself how over tuned they are if that's a true statement, and it is.
I don't think they're mandatory for competitive survivor success though."
these two statements are contradictory. your saying that the player is throwing the game for not running an exhaustion perk. This is implying that they are mandatory for optimal results.
They all have stacks of restrictions, limitations, skill requirements etc etc. Pain Res for example which is generally considered the best killer perk in the game right now by most people. It requires hooks (skill), have to be on specific hooks (an added rng downside), requires you to hook and not slug (forcing a specific less optimal play style), only works on different survivors (forces a specific non-efficient play style again), and only activates a max of 4 times (a cap on how much value it can give regardless of skill or game length).
I only see pain res and other forms of game-delay as rewards to dynamically extend the game. pain res should honestly be base-kit for killer so I don't need to use a perk slot on it. Tru3 has mentioned that Pain res has one bad design where when you run out of tokens, your disincentives from hooking. He prefers when the perk was unlimited use. The other bad design is having situational hook placement. Just add unnecessary rng where you can lose matches to rng.
My thoughts on exhaustion is that exhaustion perks are anti-tunnel perks with no restriction. they are game-delay perks for survivor to delay killer from killing them. Perks like decisive strike & off the record have conspicuous actions drawbacks while exhaustion perks do not. In practice, survivor would just want to run 4 exhaustion perks much like killer run 4 game-delay perks. In that sense, they do have limited use. Survivor exhaustion do take skill to use but the skill to use them is easy. As a result, the survivor skill is often belittled in my opinion.
On a personal level, the perk that looked the most successful in term of anti-tunneling for me was Made For This. The 3% haste was incredible bonus for me. it allowed me to run killers for a long time. It is the one perk that I feel empowered my chases more then anything else.
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@JeanGreyarea said:
https://youtu.be/GD6c9hMLve0?si=cNpyaXR44XMtUv1d
Yes background player needs a change. And for the people buckle up shouldn’t have synergy. But now we complaining about all exhaustion perks? And I saw this other streamer (won’t say his name) complain about how Blastmine has no counter play. How many more nerfs do survivors need?😭
greyletter is stating his opinion on exhaustion. He doesn't think that 50% haste perks that trigger every single chase is fair. many players have had shared opinion that that the perk design is broken and unfair. A long time ago, I remember Ohtofu mentioning that he would not mind if all exhaustion perk were nerfed the ground. @Blueberry has also shared that opinion on forums in the past that he thinks that exhaustion perks are too strong and mandatory for competitive survivor success.
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I just wish freddy was more engaging to play. more strategy and surprise factor. the loss of stealth, no aura reading and no -action speed made his gameplay so dull.
the m/s when holding a snare makes snares useless vs good players and fake pallet are lackluster. Gen tp is cookie cutter skill.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3705253#Comment_3705253
I mean if someone wants to run a perk specifically to counter one niche build on an average pick rate killer sure... I don't think the perk is good if that's its main usage...
I mean fair, but then again the perk only really hurts one killer... Which is sub optimal design.
it is like small game. Small game used to detect trappers traps. a very narrow use for a perk. almost nobody ran small game to counter trapper. BVHR still removed it. they should remove the -50% missed skill-check and build-in doctor passive and just focus on giving a more simple 10% skill-check chance increase.
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@ChainsLogic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3705266#Comment_3705266
Well, I said 25 meters minimum, I'm not sure why you keep writing 23 meters. If you can hit a survivor coming for an unhook with all the obstructions many of the maps have, more power to you. Iri coin is one of the rare exposed addons I don't have a problem with because of the distance requirement. And if the Huntress proxy camps she risks losing a lot of pressure.
doesn't matter. whatever value you give. the player will stand 26 meters away. this is not about playing efficiently or winning. it is about getting value out of the add-on. huntress should be able to play normally when equipping the add-on. the current iteration makes players play her in weird way.
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@ChainsLogic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3705255#Comment_3705255
There's a reason it's limited to 1. My idea gives more options for both Huntress and the survivors. Also you can't facecamp from 25+ meters, it's literally a paradox.
bad wording. your encouraged to hold a hatchet from exactly 23 meters away. that is one of tips to doing that skilled huntress achievement. People already do this with deathslinger iri-coin. it is not a good change.
I am just slightly proposing a little bit of a buff to make it a little bit more usable outside of camping.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3705218#Comment_3705218
Both sides have very annoying stuff to deal with. Both should be looked at. Ultimate weapon is getting fixed tomorrow. I think we should also look at backgroundplayer.
what fixed. the perk is dead.
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@ChainsLogic said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3705051#Comment_3705051
So you would keep Huntress with 1 iri head and 30 meters of minimum distance for an exposed hit? That's bad, would make iri head borderline pointless to have in game. My idea makes it less frustrating for survivors, because they are more likely to dodge the hatchet at longer distances, but also not super punishing for the Huntress player, who'll still be able to deal normal damage if not that great at long distance shots.
As for the hatchet size hitbox, I'm not sure why you think I don't know how survivor hitboxes work. The 10-15% reduction of the sides of the hitbox is mostly to slightly decrease the frustration of bizzare looking shots you can get playing vs Huntress especially when ping comes into play. It would require slightly more accuracy when playing Huntress, cause slightly less frustration and make those strange looking hits slightly less common on the survivor side.
The fact that Trapper's traps don't have a hitbox on the hinges because of realism, often causing him to be unable to squeeze by his own trap, while the survivors can, while the Huntress throws a volleyball at you (there is a picture of hatchets hitbox online) is almost funny.
the add-on would be useless for anything other than proxy-camping/face-camping hooks from 23 meters away. I'd say the add-on could use a small buff. maybe +1 extra hatchet capacity.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3704890#Comment_3704890
People who run that perk probably will not miss skill checks on a regular basis anyway, I don't really see that as a benefit to outweigh the injured status... If you are bad with skill checks, why exactly would you want more of them? (Other than for learning purposes)
The only reason to run it is probably either a hyper focus resilience build to do gens faster or one with autodidact, but the second one will suck anyway and most people are not good enough to make use out of hyper focus builds anyway...
the main effect for increase odds of skill-checks is not very relevant even for intended autodidact purpose. the main good aspect of the perk is last line. the reduced 50% penalty for failing skill-checks. it counters skill-check builds by significantly reducing the reward. this indirectly counters doctor's madness power. I agree you can counter it if your good at skill-checks but this allows bad players to mitigate the effect.
Lightfooted has injured condition because it counters spirit's power. Iron will+lightfooted vs spirit would be survivor being a ghost. i would buff the perk by making adding new effect that increases killer footstep sounds by 30%/40%/50%.
MoM: I believe this perk used to prevent you from going down even from exposed. it got nerfed at some point to do not do that. Presumably, it counters exposed killer such as Billy, Myer's and Bubba in some instances. Again, the perk countering killer powers.
Overcome: This perk used to work against Nemesis's infection where you would get a 4 second speed boost when you were not infected. This is increases drawback power-level of the killer power. That is why they nerfed it. This does not counter killer power but it buffs downside. Endurance hit speed boost & nemesis hit speed boost are connected.
the first 4 perks affect killer powers. that is why they have those negative conditions to reduce popularity/reduce power-level.
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@SolidRazo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3704890#Comment_3704890
hardly a benefit it’s just a safety net that offers no benefit to progressing anything if you simply don’t mess up
deadline working when healthy would help it with autodidact since it’d just be on all the time and not limited to being injured especially when it already messes with skill checks when it is equipped and the benefit isn’t THAT impactful unless paired with perks that benefit from it such as autodidacti don't like how DL makes skill-check builds that are typically weak into fall into near irrelevancy. the perk almost looks like an iri add-on for doctor that buff his madness to 100% chance but weakens the reward as a perk.
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deadline has -50% penalty to missed skill-checks. that positive warrant the injured status.
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@Blueberry said:
Because the primary way she’s good is boring for both sides. I find her anti loop just forces a hold w play or you get put in a lose/lose scenario. Super binary gameplay with little skill expression for anyone.
What makes her actually fun for both sides is skilled long range sniping. However against good survivors who can just insta jump in lockers this is rendered not that effective. Lockers removing crows shouldn’t be a thing, it should be who’s the better at predicting movement or dodging.
If they nerfed her anti loop but buffed her sniping capability she would be significantly more popular. The strong way to play her at the moment just isn’t fun or skillful for anyone, including herself.
Greyletter uses Artist to great degree. he snipes with artist. I find artist very clunky so I don't play her. I rather play a proper range killer like huntress or trickster then deal with second-chance crow mechanic. i wouldn't label as strong, more of noob-stomper for survivor that ineffective at hold-w at correct time and pre-running.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3704568#Comment_3704568
Gonna be honest, I actually misread your original post. I thought you were suggesting procs for every 120s you stay on the circle, I didn't realise you meant proc it, and from that point on the gens get 10 progress every 120s.
So that now makes a little more sense... so a lot of my prior criticism is invalid.
This does seem pretty unhealthy though, just take Iron Will and Distortion, then spend the whole game hiding while the gens do themselves. Eventually all gens will be done in a maximum of 32 minutes with no way for the killer to stop it. I don't think that playstyle needs to be encouraged. Even if it was balanced, it'd be as fun as watching paint dry.
I did change my original suggestion, though I think we're still gonna disagree. The story of getting a strong item to use to help break central gens, especially when you have the early game gen regression killer meta seems like a better route to me, and as stated before the killer gets an audible warning regarding a completed invication and can see the Ethereal toolboxes, they can continually harass the survivor with it to counter play it. This seems far more interactive to me than encouraging a hard stealth strat, where a survivors literally can just hide and never take any risks to show themselves as the gens progress themselves.
Reading @SoGo reaction should gave you the hint. In my opinion, that is the level of power that an invocation perk should be at. a game-altering effect. they can justify said effect by saying, 120 second channel time. survivors are doing secondary objectives MR. killer main.
This does seem pretty unhealthy though, just take Iron Will and Distortion, then spend the whole game hiding while the gens do
themselves. Eventually all gens will be done in a maximum of 32 minutes with no way for the killer to stop it. I don't think that playstyle needs to be encouraged. Even if it was balanced, it'd be as fun as watching paint dry.I am going say same thing as I said to Sogo. The average game is not going to last 32 minutes. I am not saying this is not possible as I joke about otz and content creator making a video on the perk but the average that I was going was about 3 activation per match with 120 second window. the killer gets a decent chunk of time to kill the survivors before the perk starts to hurt the killer.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3704478#Comment_3704478
That fair, I can agree with the tenet of making the perk situatuonal. Now I look back st it, my version does have the potential to become meta... so cheers for catching me on that.
May as well respond to both of you though as I have the same point:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3704518#Comment_3704518
Invocations will forever be a doomed concept in their current form of balancing around time. Using the number of people working on the invocation as its limiting factor makes them basically impossible to balance.
For the 70s gen progress Invocation saves compared to the same time that could be spent working on gens without multiple perk users:
- 120s is inexcusably long for 1 person.
- 80s is inexcusably long for 2 people.
- 60s is hard to justify for 3 people.
- 48s is never gonna happen.
With multiple perk users:
- 120s is inexcusably long for 1 person.
- 60s is still hard to justify for 2 people.
- 40s is started to get reasonable for 3 people.
- 30s is never gonna happen without some serious SWF shenanigans.
Basically Invocations are only even remotely viable for SWFs, and even then it's questionable, and that's without it even considering the perma broken downside. Making a petk that is only even worth considering using if you're in an organised 4 man SWF is pretty miserable. Invocations need to be somewhat self sufficient to be viable.
The primary goal of my template is therefore to remove time as the balancing factor... if you do that however you need a reason for other people to get involved in the invocation.
My solution to this is give Invocations a set time, and the focus of balance shifts directly to the strength of the effect that is triggered upon completing the invocation, and its related bonus for taking part in the invocation.
There is the issue players can turn up as the invocation finishes to get the rewards, which may need to enforce some kind of minimum participation rule.
However this is the crux of my point. Time is too valuable a resource, and should not be the balancing factor. Invocations will always walk a line of being too strong with a short time for SWFs, thus requiring harsh penalties to balance,(e.g. the perma broken effect), and those harsh penalties will make Invocations completely unusable in conjunction with the long times for solo.
weaving spiders saves time. It just doesn't save enough time to justify using it. at the same time, you can't just buff the perk to be like -30 charges. I was proposing a skill-component to the perk where you need to survive X amount of minutes to gain perk value.
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@alpha5 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3704534#Comment_3704534
This gets you into situations like you just unhooked with We'll make it, pick up a downed survivor with +200% healspeed in ~5s and then heal them to full with +200% in ~5s. It would pre-nerf green medkit kind of busted.
i am aware.
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what if they made it work like we'll make it where you gain 100% healing speed for 90 seconds after picking up a downed survivor. consumes 1 token. Maybe it would be too strong.
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Blame hens.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtBvvC6gEQ0&t=37sthey nerfed interaction by making his chain count as special but now it has inconsistency with other killer powers.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3704438#Comment_3704438
No, not like Old BT where you both get endurance. I'm saying that when you run BT, every time you get unhooked you'd get 20s of Endurance and Haste yourself.
I'd prefer if BT gives me endurence when I unhook. I would reconsider running the perk.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3704453#Comment_3704453
You do realise you can argue for 60s you know, instead of just undermining the whole idea?
Regarding what Invocations are supposed to be for... high risk high reward? What is the high reward currently? There is so much risk, it is almost impossible to complete, and you spend 120 or 80s with 2 people to gain 70 charges back on all gens, instead of 80 charges on 2 gens? What's the high reward exactly?
My suggestion isn't exactly a high reward... survivors can get 70s of BNP on a gen for spending approximately 70s in basement, 80s if it is switched to a 60s invocation. They then spend another 20 seconds applying the BNPs to the gen. You can't rapid fire them in 1 shot, there is a cooldown between each usage in line with normal skillcheck patterns. The most obvious point is there are still 4 more gens to be done.... or do you consider a completed generator that can't be regressed broken balance wise?
Explain why using BNPs to recover the time you spent in basement is so broken compared to staying on a gen? Yes it now can't be regressed, but survivors have to take the risk of getting cornered in basement to get the reward.... and ofc they may not even even complete the ritual, which means they get nothing. This is all an option that is compared to working on and getting caught on a gen, and at least they have a partially progressed gen AND they arent hooked in basement... so there has to be a reason to do the invocation and take that extra risk over just doing a generator... otherwise the perk type dies.
When it comes to your suggestion, it has 1 glaring flaw... the perk is still trash. There is no reason to run it. Whether its 120s 1 time or 8 times, it's still 120s for each proc. It's a complete waste of time and a throw of the game.
The point here is make invocation perks actually useful, and the main focus is Invocations should be:
- A set time such as 60s or whatever.
- A bonus for the invoker.
- An additional bonus for anyone taking part.
That is how these types of perks becomes useful. Change my suggestions for Weaving spiders, whatever, but the tenets above as a core principle encourages much better perk design that people might actually use.
the goal is not there to make the perk always best option where it is instant selection. My goal is here to make the perk situational strong. The current iteration is not appealing in any situation in isolation.
When it comes to your suggestion, it has 1 glaring flaw... the perk is still trash. There is no reason to run it. Whether its 120s 1 time or 8 times, it's still 120s for each proc. It's a complete waste of time and a throw of the game.
If you think the perk is that bad, I could consider buffing to every 90 seconds. I went a bit cautious with the perk. In just 180 seconds, every gen goes from 90 second to 60 seconds. i don't think it is throwing the game. it is taking risk in early game to reap end game rewards.
My suggestion isn't exactly a high reward... survivors can get 70s of BNP on a gen for spending approximately 70s in basement, 80s if it is switched to a 60s invocation.
i think it defeats purpose of invocation. you might as well just use Deja vu+Overzealous or Resilience. 15% repair speed saves 13.5 seconds. I am just saying that having burst progression that happens every match makes killer have no semblance of generator control. My version of the perk also removes gen-control from the killer, like it punishes 3 gen but this happens over time.