StarstruckFrog
StarstruckFrog
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BHVR needs to stop hunting harmless mid-low tier killers for sport. I genuinely do not understand how anyone could look at old skull merchant and think she needed this harsh of a nerf.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3806020#Comment_3806020
The best way to get skins is to have 1k Aurelic Cells on your account, and keep them on the account. When a new Rift is released you complete it and buy the premium Rift. - You get your 1k Aurelic Cells back and some skins.
Repeat this with every Rift
I've been doing this and buying skins with iri shards since Trickster's rework. I bought chucky with spare auric cells i already had on my account, and I was gifted some DLCs afterwards. I do not spend nearly as much on this game as I used to.
Regardless again, I am mostly talking about Bloodpoints, which can only be earned through time and gameplay. Not having any way to get them back after you spend them is insane to me
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@zarr said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3805789#Comment_3805789
Wacek is casually on an 80-game streak, and generally winning 90+% of his matches while chilling. The notion that Trickster is "nerfed into the floor" is just silly, especially given that known Trickster mains such as Wacek are of the opinion he is better now. Trickster is a really potent killer, and regardless, when provably being able to decisively win the vast majority of one's matches it's more than a bit silly to talk about state of balance anyway. Trickster is more than perfectly viable for all intents and purposes. I can't talk to whether Trickster is more or less fun and engaging to play as now than he used to be because I don't play him, but whenever I did play him Main Event was the most fun thing about him. Having Main Event constantly now and being able to keep it up for something ludicrous like 20 seconds is crazy, and crazy fun. I also think he is more enjoyable to play now merely due to being 4.6m/s, enabling more of an ability to have standard chase dynamics. Which also made him faster during Main Event.
I have been playing the game since 2017, believe me I have experienced a lot of perks and characters and maps being changed in ways I did not approve of or was even "upset" about to some extent, but never have I felt like I deserved compensation for it, let alone after more than a year of having had gotten to use something I purchased. The Mettle Of Man thing was really poorly done, I would have wanted to refund back then, but mostly in protest, not because I was actually scandalized over the devs ham-handedly butchering a perk that everybody knew they had to change something about (although it is rather upsetting that to this day they haven't really revisited the perk, but that goes for countless other perks too). Similarly, the Merchant changes should came to no surprise to anyone that's been following the game (and she as opposed to Mettle got a lot more than a mere couple of weeks before being changed). Her kill rates and the general community opinion of and reaction to the killer made it obvious that something was going to have to change. The devs said months ago that they too still aren't happy with where she is at and looking to address her at some point. Again, I do agree that they are nerfing her too hard, to both make drones much easier to play around and remove the major threat that drones pose if they do scan you is redundant and turns her into a strictly worse Plague, or a Legion with extra steps, they should do either or.
That said, I also don't agree with making this out to be some "route" or trend. Skull Merchant is wholly unprecedented in this game's 8-year-spanning development history, no other killer has come close to garnering this negative response as consistently for as long. And they didn't even kneejerk-nerf her for all this time. And she likely won't come out of PTB in this sad a state either.
Wacek is a friend of mine and here is his comment on my video where I expressed my opinion of trickster being nerfed.
He was absolutely nerfed into the ground in the 7.4.0 update, but was made passable in 7.4.2 with some minor buffs and targeted reversions. Trickster currently does not function without Memento Blades. Even still, the experience of playing him is still much different than before, in a negative way.
We've all been slowly trying to get him to feel like how he used to for almost a year now but nobody is willing to even hear us out because Trickster is unpopular. I do not want the same to happen to skull merchant, despite me not liking her that much. You're correct that I'm being hyperbolic but you also have to understand that people do legitimately spend a lot of time on this game grinding specific characters and playstyles, so seeing them just be removed without our input being taken into account is just terrible for player trust and business. The amount of people in this thread trying to tell me my feelings are invalid because I agreed to an EULA is just silly to me, and I don't understand how people can expect to have a productive conversation if they simply lack empathy.
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@LadyOwO said:
Hate to say this but they don't owe you a refund. If you knowingly and willingly buy a dlc you are basically signing an agreement that you can play character In exchange for money. But They are all subject to changes at the whim of the game developer. Pretty sure it's stated in the Eula/ToS of the game..
Again, its not even about money. I just want my bloodpoints back so I can spend them on something I'd actually wanna use.
And hey, if they end up fixing the problem, i'll just put 'em right back into Trickster. No big deal.
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@zarr said:
You bought a character for 5 bucks, could play them for one and a half years, and now you want "refunds" because they get changed in a live service game. That's like wanting to get a refund on a coffee you've had a year ago because they changed the formula recently. Not quite obviously, but it's just silly to me people make a fuss over these things to the point of talking about refunds.
Also, this is typical forum user hyperbole. No, Trickster was not "nerfed into the floor". Do you want me to show you Trickster players with long winstreaks, that win 99% of their matches handedly? And that are of the opinion Trickster is better now? He's 4.6 and his main event can last an eternity even with low rarity add-ons.
And Skull Merchant won't be dead either. And she first has to go through PTB anyway. Granted, I think they are overnerfing her, removing one scan line would have been enough, with both that and the removal of stealth mode as well as no Hindered or Haste (at least not on scans), drones just don't do enough. Personally I would have preferred if they had just made it so hacked drones cannot be recalled, maybe slowed down their rotation speed a little, and removed stealth mode. Her chase strength is probably the issue for most average players because she is very easy to play as and not easy to play against in chase, but it's not like she's the most oppressive chaser either. Her major design flaw in my mind has always been her propensity to hold a generator cluster, spamming drones around them, with which being unable to recall hacked drones would help tremendously.
Nobody has done a notable winstreak with trickster since his rework, and the point you bring up about main event is irrelevant to me because I don't play trickster to play Main Event sim. His power became unpleasant to use unless you spam main event which every trickster player will tell you is boring.
Regardless, I'm merely making a point that people invest time and bloodpoints into characters with no guarantee they will even be fun to play after a random, unannounced update. Dev communication needs to be more clear in the future, or they should offer bloodpoint refunds for characters so i can invest them into other characters I would rather play. I don't see how this is unreasonable to ask. Acting like I shouldn't be allowed to be upset when I invest time and BP into something only for it to basically no longer exist is just weird, and your metaphor doesn't even make sense. You sound like someone who has not experienced this problem yet wants to speak for people who do.
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Please fix this, it makes counterplay against nemmy much more annoying than it has to be.
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@rysm said:
The dangerous visual/lighting bug the trickster was initially disabled for has NOT been fixed.
The brightness and puslating/flashing of the "lines" across the screen continues and is unbearable. I've just finished a match against a trickster with sore eyes and a sore head because of it. I'm not as sensitive to these types of issues as others may be so this issue is very dangerous for some people.
I am on PS5 but I was playing with other people across different platforms and the same issue was occurring for other players in the match.
This is not the same issue. The lines have always flashed on hit, the problem was that the lines/flashing would cover the whole screen. The devs just remade his laceration VFX from scratch with the latest patch with the new engine in mind, so the bug from before shouldn't happen anymore. You should move this post to the feedback section and talk about how the new VFX should be changed to be less distracting.
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@UndeddJester said:
The design of this is really good, making Trickster not about spamming knives over tiles, but instead about precise chains of shots. This would make him the least obnoxious version of him.
You have the double penalty of each miss costing you distance by virtue of tbe movement speed reduction for each consective throw, and a loss of a charge towards main event. This would actually be solid for making Trickster a skill character with payoffs for accuracy, and otherwise a m1 killer with inefficient down potential for people who spam.
The problem you're gonna have is that this rework is VERY punishing on console. Trickster is usable on console in his current form, challenging, but playable. This set of changes would make him very difficult to play on console... and I can't really think of a way to mitigate that...
The thing about playing Trickster on controller, and just in general is: Your knowledge about trickster matters more than precise aim. If you can get used to his projectile speed, windups, and where survivors path, you can do pretty good.
Here is some footage of me playing trickster before the update (yes, the version with recoil,) on controller. I rarely use controllers for games let alone FPS games, but i still think I did pretty okay, just because my knowledge of how trickster works.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ukY17s33xoThis isn't a flex, it's just to show that if you put enough time into the character you can get good results regardless of your controls.
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@Liozio said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3707931#Comment_3707931
That's not fair to OP at all, they said they liked recoil but are fine with it not coming back.
It's not like I really care what they think if something that small made them stop reading, lmao
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You asked me to post this here, so here's my updated feedback for Trickster. Hoping to see something in the coming months.
@StarstruckFrog said:
EDIT: I accidentally posted the discussion without the body text… oops.
Yo. It's been 6 months of the Trickster rework, so I figured I'd throw some more feedback into the ring now that its been a while. You may remember I made an extremely long-winded post about it shortly after its release, and I still stand by most of what I said, so I'll keep this updated post relatively short.
Stuff I like
I wrote the last post by only really talking about stuff I didn't like, so this time I'll actually talk about the stuff I like first.
- Being 4.6m/s feels very good to play with. I didn't feel Trickster needed to be 4.4m/s previously as his ability slows him down by a good amount to use and he can't compensate the lost movement speed with any mobility. The best thing to do against Trickster is break line of sight and force him to make a guess where you are, which gives you an opening to make distance.
- I like the increased reload speed at lockers. 3 seconds is a good default duration and shortening it to 2.25s with the USB Stick addon feels very good. Unfortunately the animation is still bugged after several months and it needs adjustment.
- I've really enjoyed playing with the Iridescent Photo Card addon. It makes going for raw accuracy in tiles where you don't get many openings to shoot much more viable.
- I don't like the removal of Recoil and would prefer it coming back, but I'm sure most people appreciate it and I think that's good.
Bugs
I'm going to note some significant bugs I've noticed. This likely isn't all of them.
- During the reload animation at Lockers, the knives are desynced from the Trickster's animation.
- The combo system kicks in too quickly and ends immediately after a miss. This caused many of Trickster's grunts he makes during throws to no longer play, and causes his laughter to frequently trigger.
- Main Event's screen effect will linger on screen even after you can no longer activate it.
- If you activate Main Event just before the timer runs out, you receive the deafening effect, and get a pink overlay on your screen instead of a yellow one. This lasts until you activate main event again.
- Survivors frequently lose collision with knives if they miss a skill check while repairing a generator and leave the generator right after.
- Hit validation causes false positives and false negatives. Blades will often seem to collide with something then still hit a Survivor, or will show the effect as if they hit a survivor and not deal damage.
Now I'm gonna go over all the problems I have with the rework again.
Increased Time-to-Kill and Main Event Playstyle
Ever since the rework, the time it takes for Trickster to down people with his power has gone up significantly. The developers silently removed Trickster's old gradually increasing throw rate and replaced it with a faster Main Event charge. This means you have to hit people with Trickster's previous slowest throwing speed only, and then follow it up by using Main Event.
On top of this, you now have to hit more shots than before for each health state, needing 8 instead of the previous 6. This change made Trickster significantly less fun, as the average chase time has gone up by an insane amount. People who know how to loop you will last longer without losing a health state due to how slow the base throw speed is and how many knives they need to be hit by. This has become an even bigger problem due to the prevalence of Endurance effects in the game now, as any proc of Endurance will require you to repeat the cycle all over again.
These problems are only kept in check by the increased frequency of Main Event. You now have to use this ability all the time as without it you don't have much going for you. This ability saves you knives, eats health states quickly, and doesn't require precise aim like the normal firing mode.
I don't like this new playstyle at all, and I genuinely don't know anybody who does. Being forced into autopilot mode every 8 Knives is just not as fun as old Trickster, who had to hit each shot manually and use his different throw speeds to his advantage.
Old Trickster has the option of switching between Tap-firing and Rapid-Fire on demand. New trickster doesn't have the option of rapid-fire unless he has Main event. This is a blatant removal of options in favor of a forced playstyle.
Add-Ons have become significantly less useful
Trickster was never particularly add-on dependent before the update, as he had a lot of add-ons that were viable. The Trickster rework removed a lot of add-ons and left mostly the bad ones, and practically forces you to use the remaining few that are decent. I'd say the only add-ons that are genuinely worth using are Trick Blades, Photo Card, Memento Blades, and Watch. The remaining add-ons have useless effects like combo duration, and frequently have duplicate versions that do even less. When suggesting reworks to add-ons, I'm going to add completely new effects to many of them, so that players can actually choose ones that fit a playstyle.
Updated Changes and Suggestions
Now that I've re-explained all my feedback again, I'm gonna go over my updated suggestions for the kit and add-ons.
Revert the following:
- Revert Laceration Meter to 6 Blades per health state. (from 8)
- Revert Throw Rate to Pre-7.4.0 Version. (Base throw speed of 3 Blades per second [0.33s windup,] with each throw decreasing throw windup by 0.01s, reaching a maximum of 0.25s windup or 4 Blades per second after 8 throws.)
- Trickster now once again suffers reduced movement speed after each consecutive throw, down to 3.68m/s after 8 throws. Tie this directly to throwing speed. (from the previous 30.)
- Revert the Combo system to how it previously worked. The current version is too buggy.
These things simply didn't need changes as they kept the kit feeling strong and functional. The problems caused by changing these to begin with have made the kit feel really undercooked and bad to use.
Improve Laceration Meter Gameplay
- When the Laceration Meter begins decaying, Laceration Meter Stacks will be preserved until 1 whole stack is fully depleted.
- Decrease Laceration Decay time to 12s. (from 15)
- Laceration Stacks now deplete in 3 Seconds / at 0.33 c/s (from 2 seconds / at 0.5c/s)
These changes would improve the gameplay around the Laceration meter by giving Survivors quicker feedback on when they're losing chase, and not screwing over the Trickster player by making him have to hit another whole blade to compensate for the meter decaying by like 1%.
If you're confused by the wording, think of Ghostface's stalk meter but in reverse. You're still exposed until the moment the meter fully drains, right? With this system, If you were hit by 4 Blades, your laceration meter would still count you as at 4 Lacerations until the meter drained down to 3.
Improve Main Event Design
- The sound the Trickster hears when Main Event is ready is now a global sound effect for all Survivors.
- Set Main Event Duration to 5 Seconds. Remove Combo system implementation.
- Main Event now requires 10 Blade hits to activate.
- The Main Event gauge will lose 1 Charge for any Blade you miss when Main Event is not charged or activated.
- No slowdown effect during Main Event, like before.
- Main Event throw rate multiplier is now +33% on top of maximum throw rate, up to ~5kps.
This new design for Main Event makes it a reward for accuracy, instead of an eventuality. The reason for changing it so drastically is that I wanted the base kit to be strong, but not too strong with the threat of Main Event. This makes it so you'll still very frequently be able to activate Main Event, but not nearly as frequently and easily as you can currently.
Add-on Pass
I don't think I'll go too in-depth on the addons here as I think you'll quickly understand the playstyles I wanna open up with each add-on.
Killing Part Chords - Increases Vault and Break action speed by 20% during the Main Event activation window. (NEW)
Trick Pouch - Increases Blade carrying capacity by 10. (BUFFED)
Inferno Wires - Increases throw speed during Main Event by 10%. (NEW)
Memento Blades - Laceration caused by Blades is based on proximity to the target, starting at a minimum of 50% Laceration. Each Blade hit increases the Laceration caused by Blades, up to a maximum of 200% Laceration. Missing a Blade resets Laceration to its initial value. (NEW)
On Target Single - Increases the time before the Laceration meter begins decaying by 3s. Decreases the time it takes Laceration stacks to deplete by 1s. (REWORKED)
Caged Heart Shoes - Decreases Laceration meter limit to 5. Decreases base movement speed to 4.4m/s. Decreases movement speed while in the Throw state by 4%. (NEW)
Ji-Woon’s Autograph - Decreases throws required to reach maximum ramp-up by 2. (REVERTED, BUFFED)
Lucky Blade - Decreases charges required to activate Main Event by 4. Increases charges lost when missing a Blade by 1. (NEW)
Fizz-Spin Soda - Blade hits apply Mangled for 70s. (NEW)
Waiting For You Watch - When a Survivor’s Laceration meter begins decaying, reveal their aura for 3s. (NEW)
Bloody Boa - Activating Main Event causes all Survivors in your Terror Radius to scream. (NEW)
Ripper Brace - Direct Blade hits from beyond 16m deal 1.5x Laceration. (NEW)
Iridescent Photocard - For each consecutive Blade hit, gain a stackable 1% Haste effect, up to a maximum of 5%. This bonus is lost when missing a Blade, when a Survivor loses a health state, or when the Laceration Meter begins decaying. (COMPENSATION NERF)
Death Throes Compilation - During Main Event, the amount of Blades you hit Survivors with will be returned as Ammo at a 2x conversion rate when Main Event ends. (NEW)
This is a near-complete rework of his add-ons. Can you see yourself using any of these? Please let me know.
I hope the developers will take this into consideration. I want to be able to enjoy trickster again in the future. Thanks for reading
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Also you mentioned Memento blades breaking the throw animation. That's another bug I forgot to mentioned.
Another significant bug I forgot to mention: Macmillan Estate Shack's boarded up windows are still completely solid and impossible to throw through, conveniently ever since the rework. It sucks.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
the summary of post is that base throwing mode is unrewarding? Wouldn't it just make more sense to bring malicious murder to have -1 laceration meter so that base throwing mode retains similar strengths for player that want to focus on improving his base throwing mode?
i feel like his base throwing mode is still decent even with 8 hits. I think only thing I miss about old trickster is his iri add-on where he reloads automatically after main event. it was nice little reward for being precise with his ability. even then, it is not a huge loss.
The Main Event gauge will lose 1 Charge for any Blade you miss when Main Event is not charged or activated.
revert Throw Rate to Pre-7.4.0 Version. (Base throw speed of 3 Blades per second [0.33s windup,] with each throw decreasing throw windup by 0.01s, reaching a maximum of 0.25s windup or 4 Blades per second after 8 throws.)
these two changes cannot work together. if your not holding down the button, you'll never benefit from throwing rate increase but holding button prompt you into losing main event stacks from missing. they're contrary changes that entirely go against trickster's entire gameplay. It is not wise to force other people into how you play trickster onto other players.
Overall he's fine where he is at. Just fix his throwing animation on memento blades. that thing is still annoying. I use add-on but it is unpleasant to look at.
You bring up a good point that I feel needs to be said: I don't want killers to just be "fine." Trickster was fine before his rework too, and far better designed overall. If the point of a rework isn't to improve on the parts of the killer that was lacking, I don't know what is. This update came with a laundry list of nerfs and downgrades to mechanics that didn't need changing, and my suggestions are focused on reverting the changes we didn't need and actually improving on the things that needed improvements with the old kit.
And yes, the two changes you mentioned are designed to work against each other. You either focus on accuracy and get main event as a reward or throw faster with less accuracy at the cost of ammo. I don't see the issue with that.
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Heya :) Glad to see ya also makin a post about a potential Trickster update. I know you expected me to not like it, but I actually have some interesting thoughts on this since you're balancing for a 4.4m/s Trickster.
I'ma try not to be as wordy as I normally am on here.(oops)With the Basekit, I like the combination of 4.4m/s, 5x Meter, and the slowed movement speed while throwing. I think all that combined would make 4.4m/s Trickster feel pretty fair and have a solid foundation. However I don't really know what you mean by 3-4 Ramping Throw Rate.
Where I start to get iffy is the 60 Blades basekit being brought back. Call me a snob, but I really don't like the idea of increasing Trickster's ammo. Personally I got to the point where (before the rework) I was barely reloading anyway, and increasing his ammo kind of decreases the skill requirement for the power in a way I don't really like (semi-encouraging spam)
I'm also not really sure about making haste and action speed bonuses basekit (similar to Hux,) I personally think in the long run this just kind of complicates the kit in a way that I don't think is crazy interesting. Like very few people are gonna be able to tell the difference between normal action speeds vs a 10% faster version, and those who do would probably prefer to just have that basekit. I mentioned it in your stream but I'm at the point of vouching for killers to just do basic actions at different speeds depending on how good their power is for chases specifically.
I won't go into that here tho…. I kinda just think running bamboozle is fine for now. Maybe someday it'll be addressed.
Also, this is a really specific thing, but currently your stats around main event aren't really feasible with how the code for the killer works. Currently Main Event's pocket duration (how long u can hold it before using it) is only set to be 3x the duration of main event. Since main event is 6 seconds that means you can only hold onto it for 18 seconds. I don't think a 20s pocket duration is possible unless you made the duration 5 seconds and made the pocket duration 4x instead of 3x. Similarly add-ons that add to the timer probably won't work additively the way u think.
Speaking of add-ons though, I actually like Watch and Wires a lot. The haste addons seem really useless to me. I'm unsure about how the combo effects of the purple addons work and find them slightly unnecessary (you know im biased against ricochet but I wont bring that to the discussion here since im aware its just a me-thing.) Again I don't like tricksters ammo being increased by a lot so im iffy about the ammo addons. Throw Rate addons are a W. I find it funny that your version of memento blades is the exact opposite of mine. Idk why photocard needed a rework :<
I'll probably shoot u a message later and we can talk more in-depth but thats about all i got to say for now. Love ya homie
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3692154#Comment_3692154
trickster is inherent not suppose to be about burst damage. he's chip damage. damage over time. many have assimilated this as ranged legion that inevitable downs you however dev have tried to put a "healing" over-time mechanic in his kit.
I agree that modern day Trickster feels agonizing to play against, hehas this issue where he has PTB Huntress movement speed where he can sit on your back for around 3 loops around shack. I am seeking to solve this "No point to do anything in chase" style, because I find it bogs down his enjoyment factor on both sides.
The Survivor feels they explode and cannot meaningfully get anything from forcing the Trickster to miss
In many instances of trickster, they have tried to lower his laceration timer from 15→10 seconds to reward survivor for LOS his knives but in every instance, the change was always reverted. part of that is that he did not feel powerful enough to warrant healing in the chase.
I sought to nerf it and roll some of that into the base-kit (yet another nerf i'm adding that is not small to make way for better 4 v 1 pressure).
trickster already has good 4vs1 pressure. His main event is an extreme integral part of his map pressure because it allows him to slug survivors and get muti-downs. By slugging survivors and getting muti-down at key opportune moments, he can slow gen down by keeping survivors on the floor. He doesn't have any defence or secondary objective mechanic but he can build his own game-delay. Nuking his main event is nuking 4vs1 map presence.
trickster already has good 4vs1 pressure. His main event is an extreme integral part of his map pressure because it allows him to slug survivors and get muti-downs. By slugging survivors and getting muti-down at key opportune moments,
4v1 pressure that only exists if survivors make the mistake of grouping up and going down near each other is not 4v1 pressure. What you are describing is slug pressure. Unlike killers like nurse, oni in power, blight, etc who actually have 4v1 pressure: trickster cannot start new chases easily. He has to waddle around the map to find people, which gives survivors plenty of opportunities to get to safety or just hide until he goes away and they can rescue people from the floor. That is not map pressure or 4v1 pressure/
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I really can't understate how boring new trickster is guys.... Hit 8 knives, pop main event, down the survivor... repeat.
When the only "rapid fire gameplay" I get is by popping an automatic fire mode that takes control away from me, It gets old incredibly quick.
I liked old trickster cuz I was in control constantly. But now if I don't use main event every chance i get I'm stuck with a strictly worse version of a character I liked. I really fail to see how this is an improvement in any way, and im still baffled by the fact he isn't on the roadmap for any future changes.
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@FreeKnives said:
I am also curious about this watch list. The original Trickster Feedback page has 7 pages and Im sure will grow more. Why wouldn't that be on the watch list to continue to monitor and get insight from Trickster mains?
We may not all agree on specifics, but we can agree that we all want BHVR to keep an eye on that forum and hear us all out.
Mandy herself said they have not forgotten about Trickster, but did not have a timeline.
I dont know if its Killa Whale's Paradox of loving DBD video that has me feeling pessimistic .... but it started to make me nervous on whether or not they were actually considering this or if it is on the back burner to make way for something new instead... I have no reason to doubt Mandy, but I just want to hear a little more.
BTW Starstruck,
Revvium added a visual representation to the initial idea you posted about better indicators for survivors when it comes to the laceration meter without harming the Trickster reliance on decay. This version Trickster is literally held together by his decay meter, which is why I was wary of your suggestion before. But it makes sense now. You should take a look at that. Its in the original forum.
I also took a lot of time (A lOT) to clip and show many audio and visual bugs some of which affect balancing. Not just quality of life but would be nice if thats considered too. Im not even talking new ideas, I'm talking fixing things and bringing things back that exist on back up Im sure.
Oh cool, I'll have to find it sometime. Thanks for letting me know, Revvium seems nice.
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Decided to brush up on the actual post itself and fill it with all my updated thoughts and my updated suggested rework. If anyone's willing to re-read it to see my more concise thoughts, godspeed. I'd appreciate it.
And again, I'm pretty open to any suggestions for add-ons and other misc basekit changes that aren't major. When I was given feedback, I changed my tune, and I'm always willing to do that. But I won't back down from my core belief that Trickster should be allowed to feel like his old self while still being 115. That change alone is not major enough to warrant the neutering of his power to the degree we see in current trickster.
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@ABAEX said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3629178#Comment_3629178
like ptb blight.
if trickster want 6 knife/s it need a cool down when use knife damage survivor.
when trickster is 4.4 m/s 1.5s 100% knife dmg is good for trickster.
but trickster is now 4.6m/s killer, if 3.33 knife/s still only need 6 knife to dmg survivor is 1.8s but just Throw 1knife and use 4.6 to hit is too powful.
because if not dodge knife, 1.8s will be hit. but if dodge, The distance from the trickster will quickly brought closer.
Especially since there is no recoil at the moment.
4.6m/s OR Faster dmg by knife. is Choice by DBD.
this time they think this way is balance.
4.6m/s，3.33 k/s，8hit dmg. take dmg need 2.4s. even if trickster want to use fake throw, survivor still have a chance.
Thats why I requested the other changes though, I aimed to make Trickster good and require smart counterplay to avoid dmg. He isn't easy and never will be, as long as stuff like main event is kept in check. Being 115 doesn't change that, he's limited by his ammo, lack of mobility, extreme precision, and sometimes map design too. I think all of that more than makes up for his ability being good. 115s just aren't good enough on their own without a good power to be a threat, as you typically need mobility of some kind to get hits.
Trickster would not be oppressive even with the stats i proposed. His power would still primarily feel the same way it always had, and has the same counterplay it used to. He'd just be better equipped to handle more situations and loops. If you don't want to lose your health states quickly, then don't let a 115 killer who has no mobility power get that close to you in the first place, and don't stay out in the open when he literally has a 48m warning range and has to hit you 6 times, giving you enough warning to start running somewhere. its simple really
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@ABAEX said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3620745#Comment_3620745
6 better than 8 is not good for game
because he is now 4.6 killer
he power can not better than 4.4
I see a lot of people say this but with no explanation as to why. There's plenty of killers who are 115 that are much stronger and generally have less direct counterplay than Trickster. Just look at Blight and Billy on PTB, look at Artist, look at Xeno. Even Slinger has less counterplay than Trickster and he's 110, so I genuinely don't see why he can't just be 115 with his old stats, considering how fair his knives were across the board, and especially considering the nerfs I gave him to compensate his new speed and such.
Is there a single good reason why he can't be a good 115 killer, or is it just because of precedent? He's 115 right now and I still think he's less fair and interesting than old Trickster by a mile. I would at LEAST want to try it and see if it's actually too much, but nobody's willing to have that conversation it seems
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Nemmy needs all the help he can get. His power is so underpowered compared to other characters considering he has not much going on. It sucks
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@FreeKnives said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3622288#Comment_3622288
I can appreciate that Starstruck. You were playing in a different way, and different from the people that I know and follow. (In regards to not needing Main Event with 4.4 Trickster)
However, I think making changes so that he finds more value in his base knives through add-ons is better than trying to make his base kit cater to that specific sentiment of ME not valuable.
Ironically, even though the rework you are painting for this Trickster is more punishing for acquiring Main Event, it feels like it is trying to get closer to 4.4 Trickster; yet, your view on Main Event value, meant you were disregarding one of the most difficult accuracy playstyles that you could achieve with 4.4 Trickster. His Main Event value with no reload.
The no reload playstyle with Death Throes Compilation (DTC) of 4.4 Trickster, which required you to be as accurate as possible to get value from DTC was a very rewarding and difficult playstyle when your goal was to achieve 1-0 reloads a match. VERY difficult to do, and required a lot of thought and knife management. I was striving for it but at best got 2 reloads with DTC in a match. I avoid saying the words “reload for free” because that ######### was not free, it was hard. It doesn’t seem like you ever tried that style, if you are disregarding Tricksters Main Event like you are and that’s a shame. I think you would have liked that playstyle based on what you like about high accuracy, and people like yourself might have seen the value and potential in this character's special ability had they tried that specific reward system. Not to mention that once you start getting higher in MMR, and the wild west of duplicate meta perks, Tricksters Main Event management is what made him competitive with competitive swfs in high MMR.
I’m telling you… the idea that Main Event was invaluable was the exact mentality or view that led BHVR to think Main Event needed to be changed in the first place. And with him changing meant reworking everything to fit New Main Event.
I also played 4.4 Trickster as I've said and I enjoyed a lot of things about that version’s base kit too. But with Main Event being frequent, Trickster being more aggressive in chase, and being 4.6, his kit needed to be altered. Laceration decay can’t be below 15s, its too punishing with 8 knife/16 down. And 6 Knife is better for 4.4 version Trickster, for counter play.
I think where the current Trickster is still ailing or not feeling good, is becoming apparent though. Some things that I can see that we agree on like the frequency of Main Event, being tweaked to hover around 12-16 to activate, is a common sentiment. Starstruck, I know you don’t find value of Main Event, but for the majority who do, shares the sentiment of having a bit longer Main Event, whether reward-based through a buffed Combo System to allow a much longer ME or integrated from Tequila Moonrock into base kit ME, or having both (my opinion) is a shared sentiment. We all agree his add-ons need a buff and also some creativity. They are all still based on a 6 knife/12 down Trickster, and many are weak and don’t promote variety of playstyles. But I do think keeping certain add-ons Main Event Orientated as they are is good, they just need more to them.
Whether you liked old Trickster more or not, this is the version we have now. This Trickster’s current kit accommodates for a different Main Event. If you removed his Main Event, made it too difficult to achieve or disregarded it as a I dont care about it (which would be a tragedy…) hes just Huntress 2.0. Many people do not want Huntress Trickster, including myself. I would be so depressed if that happened….If I wanted to play like Huntress, base kit, I would just play Huntress. But I got to be honest…I only play this game to master Trickster, if that was no longer fun or felt he was just a knock off character of another....I dont think I would play this game as much.
Add-ons to accommodate a Huntress-like playstyle, with long shots… is okay though, I think one Revvium's add-on suggestions I mentioned in original forum, rewards a player for snipes or hole shots… but he is too unique to make him just a Huntress. His Main Event is important to this character whether 4.4 or 4.6 version. Can it be altered and tweaked? Absolutely. But with the acknowledgment that it is a core part of this character and should remain so.
Trickster is so fun to go against. He requires you to be on your toes, and good teamwork because of Main Event. Many people don’t understand the goal with Trickster is not to not go down at all, but to spread out and avoid grouping up, spreading out the downs and wasting his time. He's an intense killer because of the looming threat of Main Event and I love it.
Yo, a few posts below the one you're replying to, I made an updated list of suggestions based on feedback I received in the thread. I'm curious what you'd think.
Also, unrelated, but I'm deathly concerned at the amount of people bringing up huntress in this thread now. Trickster is nothing like huntress at all besides the very basic concept of a character who tosses arcing projectiles... even at their base levels without taking ME into account, they don't play in a comparable way. But besides that, I appreciate your words and would like ur opinion on my more updated suggestions
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3622558#Comment_3622558
You're still heavily punishing killers for missing blades. I seriously hope BHVR ignores the entire thing.
I get it. You want to make Youtube montages, even if they involve survivors that clearly have zero idea on how to play against Trickster. But that's not practical, and doesn't help against survivors that know what they are doing.
Current Trickster is way better than your suggestions, because at least he somewhat has rapid fire gameplay, even if it often encourages Trickster to purposely injure a survivor at 6 or 7 stacks, so Trickster isn't on a time limit to activate main event... and it's super awkward that is often the optimal way to play Trickster.
Current trickster only has rapid fire gameplay with an add-on.
My suggestion is a buff in basically every single regard, with main event being the sole exception. How is that not enough for you? Because you have a specific, dull, conceptual idea for the killer? And I instead just want a return to what already worked for years and was fun? Your logic makes no sense to me.
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@endzej_ said:
I don't believe these would be good for anyone.
BHVR wants Trickster to be more chase oriented and less frustrating on both sides. He's a complicated killer to balance but these changes would drive frustration to the max on each side.
1. 4.6m/s Trickster is always on top of the survivor losing little to no distance when played correctly. While shooting half a health state a second is fine, him being anything below 8 knife Trickster at 4.6m/s would be a huge problem not to mention ramp up. Ramp up and 6 knife Trickster would be fine for the 4.4 version. As a 4.6 killer I feel Trickster would make survivors feel exhausted. Every knife is a 50/50. 6 50/50s vs 8 50/50s / 12 50/50s vs 16 50/50s is a huge difference for the survivor especially because he's fast now. Making it 1 mistake would just make them go down a lot quicker. This referencing places where he's good at ( open area, short loops)
2. Anything below 15s decay will make the Trickster's life more miserable where he struggled the most (shack, main, Jungle gyms etc.) and even the tiles where he's fine now would become an issue (majority of rock loops and similar loops). Rendering his power useless in more than 50% of the tiles. Not to mention he's not a hitscan so his knives are very dodgable from range. Rendering people's snipes and hole shots pointless, basically handicapping yourself for going for them. Killing your own playstyle as well. The lower decay pushes " back rev Trickster play " to be the only way he'd get health states. As said before lower decay makes it so hold w is way stronger. It forces him to be at the mercy of a survivor. One pre drop, pre vault, stun... him going around, breaking the pallet, vaulting gives survivors enough distance that by the time he catches up the laceration is already gone. We've proven it with 10s, 12s is an extra 1.2 meters of distance at 4.6 which wouldn't do much for him. No, decay add ons are not a fix. Forgot mention that controller players are not as efficient as mouse and keyboard players. Rendering him again to be an only mouse and keyboard killer again.
3. Your main event suggestion solidifies him as just a weaker huntress. Completely removing his identity. Making him a huntress that has to shoot more projectiles and at the same time being able to lose power progression which would just further make people question his existence when there are better ranged killers. The devs want his power to be accessible and not feel like you're playing Dark Souls. Main event is an ammo saver ability that completely nullifies Trickster's mobility for the sake of saving knives. The no reload 4.4 required at best 69% accuracy out of 44 knives less out of 52 knives. According to your main event requirements that Trickster
Would have Main event meter at 2 charges average. Hitting 30 - missing 14 is 30 - 28 ( 2 charge loss per miss) equaling to 2 charges on average. For every miss you'd need to hit 3 knives to compensate. For the good Tricksters it took from 12-20 ammo to get a down at best. In your case 6 missed knives reset the entire main event meter to 0. Not to mention that you could potentially lose main event even if you got the timer because you wanted to do old main event tricks ( 5 knife etc.) just cause you missed a knife or 2.
Even the best Trickster main that did a 250+ winstreak while reloading in less than 10 matches is just baffled by your suggestions. Not to mention, not just the fact that main event is unobtainable (especially on controler) you've tied +50% add ons to it rendering them completely useless. The highest skill ceiling add on requiring a down in main event to replenish knives. Really? It makes me question whether you're really a Trickster main. Another fact BHVR changes Trickster to be chase oriented so could be less effective at preventing unhooks and such. Your main even stipulation encourages camping since in main event he takes a 1 health state a second enabling unhook prevention. If that's the only way people could get it they'll do it.
4. Forgot to mention that your kit goes against itself. Be rewarded for not missing but at the same time encouraged to rapid fire which lead to more misses.
Not to mention you'd suggest the killing of Trick blades when they're not an add on that isn't just free value or easy to use.
Trickster is not a hit and run killer to have hemorrhage or the oblivious effect add ons. Oblivious and hemorrhage will more likely encourage going back to the hook and tunneling.
Your suggestions will just amplify frustrations on both sides
Listen man, I understand you don't seem to like me or my ideas based on our various interactions. But the fact that in the many times we've talked you've never offered a single constructive idea to bounce back at me is pretty bothersome. You only defend current trickster and seem to dismiss the mere idea that he could be better, and FEEL better for both sides by a mile. I don't care that "old trickster was dark souls" and don't wanna hear nonsense comparisons like "Worse Huntress." I'm trying to have productive conversations here about a character I enjoyed playing.
Oh, and if you're "questioning if I'm a trickster main," I think my gameplay speaks for itself, thanks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhhCdKgwLiM
Regardless of all that, I think we just fundamentally disagree about the design of the character. I think Main Event in it's entirety adds nothing to Trickster's identity. It's not special. It's more of the same. It's fundamentally just throwing knives faster, which I don't think is hugely necessary with the re-implementation of trickster old throwing rate, which gets the job done much more effectively and with more control. Infinite ammo sustained fire is never going to be as interesting as the dynamic throw rate, which added so much to the character in my opinion.
That said, I agree that adding the penalty AND increasing the requirement to 12 was too much. But, I still do think there should be some way to lose stacks. Though to be honest: I don't know how exactly to get it right without sacrificing some add-on slots to just forever be duplicates, which I don't find fun. Initially I had it so that you'd only lose 1 charge per miss, but I was so creatively bankrupt when it came time to make add-ons that I couldn't think of a new one, so I increased it to 2 so I could have an excuse to make a new addon that decreased it.
Other than that, I'm not sure what else to say. I pretty much wholeheartedly maintain my core stance that 6-Knife Meter is the best route for the character, followed up by returning to his old throw rate, in exchange for main event taking a hit to it's usefulness. I also hate duplicate add-ons, so I tried to come up with as many unique ones as I could. Some of them were bad and hapless, I'll own that, but I also firmly believe you underestimate how obnoxiously easy Trick Blades are to use.
While yes the calculated shots the add-on allows are great, the add-on is commonly used by trickster players who don't put much effort into aiming, and instead opt to bring indoor maps and just spam in the general direction of a survivor hoping one will land. I added the range limit to encourage Trickster players to actually aim directly at Survs at medium range, and only use the ricochet effect when actually playing tiles in smart ways. I feel like that is more than fair given all the other buffs I want to see come to normal trickster, but I think the range could be increased to be fair.
After reading all the comments, I own the fact that my proposed rework here wasn't perfect, so I've taken the initiative and decided to revamp it again, simplifying it much more.
This way, I get all the old basekit mechanics I loved, all the fun add-ons I like, every part of the kit is pretty strong but not overtuned, and you get your 15s decay back and better trick blades. Let me know if you have any problems with this and try to actually be constructive regardless of whether or not you disagree with some changes.
(Keep in mind Main Event's duration is very short now, but this is to compensate for the fact that you have to hit less knives during it for a health state than before. I feel like that's a worthy trade-off)
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Also I feel like I should mention it, Just reverting the laceration meter to 6 alone would be enough to keep me playing forever. But his bad add-ons, messy main event balancing and weird changes to throw rate also hurt the fun of the character heavily in my mind.
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@FreeKnives said:
Hello,
I have been following this thread, and I also have seen some of your posts on Twitter. Since the subject of controller and console players has come up….I thought I’d chime in. Especially because I think you misinterpreted what Revvium was trying to say. And I want to make sure Revvium knows that no one I know (controller player) or at least myself, took that the wrong way.
For context, I am a console player. 1000 hours on DBD, and have 600 hours on Trickster alone. I am p100 with him, iri rank, and I play Trickster religiously. Hes the only killer I really play but I do play survivor too. I am involved in the Trickster community, and a content creator exclusively for Trickster and showing what you can do on the controller with Trickster. For better or worse gameplay. I hold and participate in Trickster matches in customs, with all types of platforms, and with different skill leveled Tricksters. So helping people practice with Trickster and going against many different Tricksters myself. I am probably one of the better controller players on console. And I also encourage top PC Trickster Mains to play on controller for fun. Not just because I find it funny, but because I know its hard, and I want them to experience it for themselves since they have a platform in the Trickster community. They would agree, controller is just a whole other beast. I also have been practicing with Mnk, so that I can better understand the differences between Console and PC with Trickster. All that to say, that I am not just thinking of myself, and my particular playstyle but other Trickster mains from a variety of backgrounds when I agree or make suggestions.
Revvium is not being disingenuous. I would argue, and please don’t take this the wrong way, but it kind of sounds like you are. You posted a clip on Twitter I guess to showcase that the controller wasn’t as hard as people make it out to be….about skill issue, or about controller players saying its harder to play Trickster on controller and they just need practice. It sounds like based on your few matches you determined its not that hard at all. While that is appreciated that you took the time to investigate controller to give an opinion… Let me be very clear on this as someone who has been playing Trickster on controller for hundreds of hours, as well as talking with other controller Tricksters who have thousands of hours, it will NEVER have the same advantages as Mnk, and will always be Hard Mode for Trickster in regards to accuracy. There is even advantages and gaps between controller on PC vs controller on console. Thats okay. We controller/console players relish in that difficulty and in being Trickster chads of the Trickster community. Yet we do appreciate BHVR’s consideration and attempts to address frustrations. Even so, Trickster on controller is still inherently harder, and there is nothing BHVR can do to alleviate inaccuracy when using a joystick with this character. Again that’s okay, we still enjoy the character. With that said, saying its not hard and that it can be the same on Mnk with just more practice, or that is skill issue….when you are not a console player, that seems disingenuous.
You said that you bet you could get better at Trickster with controller in your Twitter post, well Im here to tell you, yes you can, but you will still miss knives. There will always be a level of limitations and disadvantages. You will miss knives regardless to how many hours you put in this character when on controller, with good survivors. Hell most people cant avoid that on PC with Trickster, but on controller no matter how skilled you get, its going to be harder to be pixel-perfect accurate with moving survivors or survivors who know how to counter Trickster properly. That is what Revvium is saying by your accuracy restriction on Main Event, with the negative charges for missed blades giving another level of frustration for console players. Why should that be a punishment system?
I think BHVR is doing its best to tackle this gap between the two platforms in regards to this character. Balancing him so he doesn’t feel unfun to play for PC Trickster mains, while making it easier for console/controller players AND while also keeping the skill expression for both platforms to enjoy. That’s quite the undertaking actually. This Trickster is not perfect, and can of course be further improved, but he was reworked with the intent to make things easier for console. As much as that pains me to say because I did play 4.4 Trickster all the way to p99 and would have liked to believe that I could have been as good as a top Trickster PC player with 4.4 Trickster, but the truth is controller will always have some limitation. Especially on console.
I don’t agree that hes having an identity crisis with Main Event, but I do agree he could use improvements. I have voiced that I didn’t like the frequent Main Event, but understand especially after playing him more, that the free knives you get from Main Event are critical to using him efficiently now. The new skill in accuracy is in how many chases you can go without reloading.
I don’t think going back to 6 knife to injure/ 12 to down, or that Main Event should go back to 30 knives to activate would work with this Trickster. This Trickster is meant to be fast and intense. I think 12 knives to activate Main Event wouldn’t break him however, and I like the idea of rolling some of Tequila duration percentage length into basekit, that would be nice, while improving the Combo System (buffing it significantly) to reward accuracy. Revvium already suggests such a buff. I think the Combo system is a good idea, its just weak right now. Giving us a reward system for being accurate as we all want and can agree on.
Main Event is at the core of this character. It feels a bit strange to hear someone say they intentionally shoved Main Event out of the way......Even with 4.4 Trickster Main Event was at the heart of this character and what gave him a competitive edge against swf and higher mmr. I would not disregard his secondary power as something you just occasionally think about at rarity, that you either get or dont...but didn't matter either way. His power makes him unique. It was never a bad power, just bad usage of it on the players part when he was 4.4. The same can be said about current Trickster Main Event and how people are using him or refuse to use him.
Anyway, I just wanted to respond to some of the things being said about controller, and hopefully clear anything up that might be misunderstood about playing Trickster on console.
Main Event is not a core part of the character. Never was. It's a core part of NEW Trickster, because you are required to use it to get good results. I could go many many many games of previous trickster without using Main Event and still have fun and get good results with just his old regular throwing mode.
I do not want Main Event to be a core part of his kit, I've given many reasons as to why I don't enjoy it, and it's a common sentiment among my friends and people I see on social media. I will absolutely own the fact that my idea to rework it isn't perfect and could be replaced/altered in many ways, but I still maintain that the basic foundation of "Hit Knives accrue main event, and it never loses progress" is simply not a good way to balance the ability. I think it should be something that can build up quickly if you're good but can also be taken away quickly if you don't play optimally to some degree.
at this point, I'd 100% be willing to accept a different idea, along the lines of the meter draining slowly after long periods without hitting knives, lowering the amount of charges lost when missing, or heck just reworking what main event is fundamentally. But I don't like the current existing version at all, it lacks nuance that trickster's old throwing mode had. And at this point, i'd easily sacrifice main event entirely if it meant getting trickster's old basic throwing mode back.
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@Revvium said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3620750#Comment_3620750
In addition:
-My version is 4.6mps + 8knife + 3-4 ramp.
-OP's version is 4.6mps + 6knife+3-4 ramp up (but instead of buffing players that hit well and play slower, it becomes impossible to gain main event for controllers)
I fail to understand where this is "Overtuned" when my version is just weaker. (for raw math OP's version gets downs 33% faster if being accurate and not factoring in main event, which should be usable for people who don't have inhuman accuracy)
-I am not partial to my changes, I'm being pretty open on options, but we cannot adversely tell consoles that going full rapid-fire is just gonna result in them never getting main event. Most of the OP's addons are attached to main event, which would result in most addons being unusable for controller.
It forces you to play fast to ramp up while also making it so that if your accuracy is bad you just don't get access to your iconic ability "Main Event". The ideal version of The Trickster to me is a character that bridges the gap between console and PC by giving a style that allows for M1 + rapid-fire for console (with option to combo when they can) while still giving the more accurate tricksters some "carrot to chase" which can achieve fantastical things and grand displays. My version is intentionally under-tuned for PC - because console needs to have a style that works for them.
Not just that but Trickster counter-play is unclear and undefined for a lot of survivors, giving a notification and increasing his punishment for not killing with main event will help a TON with his frustration, I really like the intensity that the new version provides, but this low dependency on ammo as well as his unclear counter-play is an area that demands improvement!
That being said, consoles not being able to main event because they missed 2 knives in 14 isn't okay. and would be a DISASTER as this rework was supposed to bridge the gap between controller and mouse + keyboard.
Lastly, The Trickster needs a base-kit that allows for addon diversity. If you don't have a base-kit with a lot of knobs, then its hard to give him good variety. All of which could be greatly improved upon, the combo system is a good addition for addon reasons and so is ramp up. but it needs to be done elegantly. and -2 for missing to "Main Event" charges is debilitating.
Much love, excited to see the future of The Trickster regardless of where he lands and I'm hoping we can fit in some snipe buffing addons as well for some sick clips and fun stylistic diversity. - Revium 💞
Some of yall disrespect controller too much. I've used it and it is not that bad. Plus, I've seen people who are very well-adjusted to controllers do much more difficult things in much more skill demanding games than DBD. Please do not act like it is impossible to aim with, that is simply disingenuous.
In the same way. Mouse + Keyboard is not a free accuracy hack. It took me years to develops good accuracy with mouse for Trickster specifically, and that's piggybacking off of over a decade of experience playing first person shooters with mouse and keyboard.
It all comes down to your comfort with a character. Once you get used to the windup time, projectile speed, throwing arc, throwing angles, etc, it becomes more natural to aim. I admit my ideas demand a lot of accuracy, more so than what people are used to in DBD I'm sure, but I think that's an important part of the character. Legions 5-Hit Down is a part of their power that doesn't come into play all that often, but it's still there because it gives their power a threat.
Maybe you could argue 2 health states is too much for an accuracy-based main event and I might agree, but I will not have my idea shot down because "Console players can't aim." That's disrespectful to controller users and overhypes the dependancy of main event in his kit, which I've attempted to argue against in my multiple posts. I don't like Main Event and don't want it being a major part of his kit, but rather an occasional thing like it used to be.
I very intentionally shoved it out of the kit for less skilled players because it never encouraged skillful gameplay to begin with, and I think it's better for the character if this ability is limited to a slightly challenging condition first. I'd be fine with lowering the requirement to something between 6-10 knives, but I really don't think 12 is asking much to begin with. as long as you hit the majority of knives without missing you should still have it pretty often.
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@Revvium said:
My Trickster Version (not including addons)
4.6 M/s, 3.86 M/s while holding knives(ramping slow), 24m Terror radius, 40m lullaby
8 knives to injure | 3 Ramping to 4 Knives per second w/ slowdown(Prerwk) | 44 ammo
15 second decay
12/16 knives to charge main event
base main event duration(6 sec) x1.66 throwrate = 6.4kps Showstopper fatigue set to 4
Combo system (same but improved)
S(8knives) = 6 second extension + 1 bounce
A(7knives) = 5 second extension + 5% movespeed to M.E.
B(6knives) = 4 second extension + bonus 5% throwrate to Main event
C(5knives) = 3 second extension
D(4knives) = 2 second extension
E(3knives) = 1 second extension
+Mapwide announcement of main event charged(for survivors)
+Visual feedback system of the combo system(let people know what combo they are at)
Um, What does any of that have to do with my original post though?
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@ABAEX said:
8 KNIFE LACERATION METER is good. can't low than 7
3.33 THROW RATE is enough for 4.6.
MAIN EVENT defult 5s
- E combo：+0.5秒
- D combo：+1秒
- C combo：+1.5秒
- B combo：+2秒 (8 knife)
- A combo：+2.5秒 (never)
- S combo：+3秒 (never)
B combo is enough 7s
There is a big difference between something being "good" and something being great.
Old Trickster was great. I don't even think current trickster is good. He is massively downgraded from his old version.
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@Maddoka said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3619128#Comment_3619128
The different between Huntress and especially 8-blade Trickster is tho, is that if you are good enough the surv only has to show themselves for a split second to take a health state. On shack for example, a surv can deny LoS a ton if they play it smart but a Huntress easily takes advantage of the tiny moments you're seen while this is much more difficult to achieve with Trickster since the surv can take the same loop several times to deny that LoS. Especially since you'd probably have to see a surv 3/4 times where Huntress only needs to see them 1 time.
The major difference is, Huntress needs to wind-up for 3.5x longer than trickster (1.25s of windup compared to tricksters 0.35s,) and she needs to wind-up for even longer (3s) to get a comparable projectile speed. Add to this that she moves way slower than trickster does, moving about 25% slower than survivors, meanwhile trickster only moves a mere 4% slower than a survivor. Additionally, trickster's smaller, faster projectiles are able to be thrown over, through, and below many more obstacles than huntress, especially thanks to his two different throwing angles (left and right hand vs Huntress' sole left throwing arm.) Add that trickster is now 115, and in a chase, and trickster is far more consistent when mastered.
This update really is a huge bummer. We finally could've seen trickster be decently strong and recognized for his cool aspects, but most of them were removed or nerfed. :(
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@dance said:
Just popping in to say that I am reading and following the conversations here 👀
I appreciate y'all taking the time to discuss it, both with me and with each other.
If you're watching, Might as well leave some more miscellaneous thoughts and stuff I missed out on mentioning.
Main Event and Throw Rate additional thoughts.
Main Event being as frequent as it is kind of replaces his old throw rate mechanic, but in a less interesting way. Main Event is weird, as it simultaneously offers more counter-play to survivors while also providing way less. It provide more counter-play than old throw rate because of its additional windup time, difficult catching up to survivors behind cover, and the fatigue upon cancelling it. However, due to being such high-speed sustained fire with infinite ammo, it makes it impossible to avoid if you're caught out by it.
Compare this to Trickster's old throw rate, which gave him an option to deny survivors ability to run past him or make mistakes if he caught them out correctly, since he'd always have that option as long as he had enough knives and accuracy. Despite this, the fire rate he could achieve was not fast enough to be considered "sustained fire," as there was just enough time between throws for you to wiggle around and minimize the amount of hits you'd take. You'd be rewarded for this by wasting his ammo.
This throw rate system is much preferable to the current main event meta we have. From what I've seen, Main Event is a big talking point right now due to how ridiculous it feels on both ends. It feels crazy to be able to mow survivors down so frequently with it, and as survivor it gets annoying entering a chase with trickster only to find out he has main event, and he's trying to zone you into a spot where he can use it. This is why I want to make main event much rarer, and make it feel more earned.
How the Main Event changes affect his add-on meta.
Currently there's a spike in usage of Main-Event add-ons, as trickster currently has a main event oriented meta. Main event is so important now as it's very common and it helps a lot in saving ammo and ending chases. With the changes I proposed to main event making it less common, this would put far more focus on the addons that affect his regular throwing state, and lower the spotlight on main event addons. This is why I primarily designed addons that helped get main event faster or make it easier to activate, and lowered the rarity of the death throes addon effect, since it'll be less common in the future, despite being identical and still good when it works.
Why his ability to throw and down people fast is important
It feels like this update aimed to increase trickster's time-to-kill by a significant amount, by making his knives slower and increasing use of main event, which has a specific windup and fatigue state that's similar to other killers.
I don't understand this. I played tons of trickster before, and can vouch that his time to kill has always been very, very high most of time time. He had potential to nearly instantly down survivors, but this took accuracy, zoning, and a bit of luck to pull off. There are 4.6m/s killers who can instadown and they're balanced around that (chainsaw bros come to mind,) and I think Trickster is the same. His knives had potential to down you crazy fast, but he doesn't have much else. You had to get really good to get those quick downs consistently, and had to learn how to play the tap-and-go game when you couldn't get those instadowns. People just need to go in with the mindset that if they make a mistake it could be very lethal, and I think it would lessen the blow.
The one thing keeping trickster interesting is that he's one of the sole killers who can attack so frequently that he has very little downtime in-between health states, unlike most other killers who slow down heavily and have high cooldowns when they miss or injure a survivor. I want this aspect to remain. The current version of trickster doesn't have this appeal, as again, his base fire rate is too slow to have these instadown moments outside of main event, which has it's own problems.
Any thoughts on this?
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@Maddoka said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618861#Comment_3618861
Not as miserable as being on a map with only tall loops and going against survs that actually have experience. Tbh he will never be truly balanced because of how different the experience to play him is per map IMO.
Eh, he's not nearly as map dependent as huntress, thanks to his faster speed across the board. Just gotta use your knives differently.
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@DrDucky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3616012#Comment_3616012
It has also made him much more miserable to go against, since with some addons a main event snowball is real and the main event thing makes his camping even more powerful.
Agreed. New trickster is very hard to lose in chase, especially with Memento Blades. Increasing his base throwing speed and bumping the laceration decay time back up has made it miserable to lose him.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618416#Comment_3618416
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/X92SDKQ43S1X/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/CYT1PI30GO6S/image.png
1) If you are going to make a montage of the best Trickster clips, then you should pick clips where the survivors are playing well. What is happening in the above two screenshots?
In the first screenshot, why on earth did the survivor decide to run up a flight of stairs, which placed them back in line of sight with the window? They could have turned right (instead of left to go up the stairs), where the giant line of sight breaker is, then run far away. It would have taken Trickster so long to get through that main building, that the survivor would have safely made it to the next tile, and the laceration meter would have run out too by the time Trickster caught up to the survivor.
In the second screenshot, why on earth did the survivor decide to run up a fight of stairs, where there is zero line of sight breakers? The survivor should have ran out of the building, so they could use the building as a line of sight breaker, to give them time to run to the next tile.
What is the point of montages where the survivors clearly don't know how to play against Trickster?
2) If you want to show us reasons why to play Trickster instead of Huntress, then we need clips where Trickster got hits, but Huntress couldn't have gotten a hit. For example, all of those clips where the survivor is out in the open long enough for Huntress to get a hatchet hit, aren't good arguments for "play Trickster instead of Huntress". Clips where the survivor is animation locked, and Huntress could have gotten an easy hatchet, aren't good arguments either.
And we need the entire clip, where we see all 8 or 16 knives, so we can judge whether or not Huntress could have gotten a hit in that entire timeframe. Clips that are just showing us the last 1 or 2 knife hits are meaningless, because we have no idea if Huntress could have gotten a hit while Trickster was landing the first 6 knives.
At this point you're just being picky and denouncing my experience with a character because you are biased against them. We will never agree or come to a conclusion. Happy holidays.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618383#Comment_3618383
Knives are definitely not "balanced out by more damage". When characters like Huntress have 1 projectile = 1 health state, Trickster having 8 (OR MORE!) projectiles = 1 health state, means his knives are low damage. And again, most projectile game have projectiles that are either hitscan, or massively faster than Trickster's knives, which means that perfect aiming is rewarded. DBD is not that game, because Trickster's knives are way too slow for that.
And rapid fire gameplay is the only reason to pick Trickster over Huntress. If I'm supposed to carefully aim every knife, and expected 100% accuracy, then I should just pick Huntress instead, whose projectiles have such a large hitbox that it's way easier to get 100% accuracy hits with them.
And I'm not saying Trickster should literally hold down the fire button non-stop. I'm just saying he shouldn't have anything that's ANTI RAPID FIRE, which is basically anything that rewards consecutive hits, or anything that punishes missed hits.
Well watch my gameplay and see if it changes your mind. It's the comment right above yours. There are 100s of reasons in my mind that make trickster preferable to huntress. They are NOT the same.
By the way, 6 is lower than 8. That was what I meant by saying his knives were balanced out by more damage.
When you make trickster throw faster, you have to balance that out by requiring more knives to kill, which was the original intention behind increasing the meter to 8 in the first place.
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If anyone wants some references of my gameplay, here is some of my favorite clips of me playing (mostly) pre-rework. I really miss his old firing rate and 6-Meter gameplay, it led to more skill expressive moments and more frequent use of his knives.
Notice how none of these clips involve main event? That's because it's boring. I like the manual firing far better, and would prefer if that was the actual focus of his kit. A lot of these clips are simply impossible to recreate with the current version because of the differences in throw rate and the increase in the amount of hits required to injure people.
I just want my main to be fun again.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618325#Comment_3618325
Have you ever played any other game that involves rapid fire weapons? Have you noticed they tend to give those weapons a huge ammo capacity, and the ammo boxes tend to have a huge number of bullets, because it's 100% expected that you shouldn't be having perfect accuracy when you are using rapid fire?
Trickster's knives have bad accuracy if he's not in close range, because the hitbox is so tiny, and the projectiles have a slow enough travel time that survivors can micro dodge some of the knives even if Trickster is aiming perfectly. This is because Trickster needs to actually predict where the survivor is, which is 100% impossible if the survivor is randomly micro dodging. This isn't a skill issue. It's literally a "Trickster's knives literally can't guarantee 100% accuracy if the survivor isn't in close range, even if the killer has infinite skill in the game".
Expecting Trickster to have 100% accuracy is expecting him to be using his knives at close range, at which point, why bother playing a ranged character? If Trickster is close enough to someone to guarantee 100% accuracy, they would be close enough for Wesker to just M2 them instead.
Most games that have rapid-fire weapons balance them out with low ammo and recoil, because they still want you to have decent accuracy. This is balanced out by more damage.
This is because having weapons that can do sustained fire is generally not fun in PVP games, as it leaves very little room for any creative counterplay or even playstyle variation.
Trickster should absolutely not go into the direction of constant rapid-fire, that only Pidgeon-holes him into a boring playstyle where all you do is hold M1 in the direction of a survivor until they die. Old trickster was perfect, having good fire rate to take advantage of surv mistakes but also having a more skill-expressive and necessary tap-fire playstyle to help at loops where u didnt have much LOS.
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@LordHeXaGoN said:
3d part about the main event is a real strange decision.
Cuz losing 2 blades after a miss for the main event is way too punishing. And main event should be reward, for players who struglle against team up surviviors.
I hope this change never get live, cuz this will make the main event garbage again, and developers, when was ptb, tried to get rid of that problem.
But 2 health states main event is fine.
If you're struggling against people who are grouping up, you always have the option to aim better. I'm not saying that to be rude, but if you can't hit your knives, you don't really deserve to be rewarded for anything. Plus, the return of throw rate growth is there for situations like that when you need to dish out a lot of damage without too much concern for accuracy.
My changes to main event were to make room for buffing his primary throwing mode back to it's former self. Besides, grouping up against trickster is generally a bad idea anyway.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Love the dedication OP I really do but who actually read all of that!?
Im aware, The primary goal was to have the in-depth explanation for devs, and the tl;dr just for the people who were curious about what I'd change. Then, if people were concerned about my ideas, they could scroll back up for context.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
after reading this, i think this is a prime example of a user not understanding any of the changes. so I just briefly talk about some of statements.
Main event is not having identity crisis. one of the changes regarding the new trickster was how ramp up is scaling. previously scaling of ramp up was how many knives you threw in quick succession however because survivor could LOS the trickster, the 0-33% ramp-up was ineffective in most cases because you would almost never throw that many consecutive knives within loops themselves. Now the ramp up is Main Event itself. Instead of having a random 0-33% ramp up, it is flat scale of 66% increased throwing-rate. Since you get to activate it when you want to activate it, you can time when you should get the power-up as opposed old system of throwing-rate which gave you no control over using main event and no control over build-up.
Trickster's default throwing mode is not primary focus on trickster. Trickster's throwing mode is solely there to charge main event. It still is serviceable throwing mode but it is not main focus on his ability. in short, it is build up to his real power, main event. this is why laceration meter remains unchanged. His throwing mode is slightly improved in his buffs and in some ways, you can use Memento blades to improve it to 3.70 TPS which is closer to PTB throwing-rate however you are arbitrary suppose to rely on main event to gain downs. This leads to last point in regards ammo efficiency. Trickster's ammo efficiency base-kit is better than ever minus old Death throes compilation because in previous old trickster, you needed 12 knives worth of ammo to down the survivor. In new trickster, you only need 8 knives because using main event does not consume ammo to get other remaining 8 hits. On average, your about 33% more ammo efficiency if you successful use main event every chase.
My main point was how this isn't a good replacement for the old trickster playstyle.
The idea that throw ramp up was "ineffective" is laughable, it was consistently useful and balanced out his fast throw state transition and low Laceration threshold. With 6-Knife and ramp up you could consistently tap-fire in loops anywhere, and quickly mow people down whenever you got the upper hand. It was always the survivors fault if they went down too quickly.
With that in mind, replacing this entire basekit mechanic with main event is dumb and doesn't even make sense, as using Main Event has always been reliant on you getting close to the target or having them mess up, exactly how throw ramp up did. Difference being, main event has it's own (longer) windup, limited duration, a fatigue state when it ends, and can be countered by lockers easily.
This post isn't about how trickster is weaker, he's far from it, it's about how trickster playstyle has devolved and degraded so much due to the changes that his kit is no longer fun to use. The new version doesn't have the same appeal as the old one, and I have countless clips of it I could share.
He's still majorly buffable. I genuinely think my changes would bring back the appeal of him without making him even close to overpowered, especially with the nerfs I provided to counterbalance the buffs.
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@dance said:
Thanks y'all for sharing your thoughts not just on Memento Blade but the other Add-ons - and Trickster in general.
Hey, I finished my in-depth post. I am going to share it here, if that's okay.
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@dance said:
Thanks all. Glad to hear that for several of you The Trickster feels better after the most recent changes. For those who think he feels in a pretty good spot - is it accurate to say that the biggest pain point / concern is his Add-ons? Specifically that Memento Blades feels like a must-have and/or that the others are too weak to provide much variety?
For those who feel The Trickster still isn't quite how you would want him - I saw a few comments about 8 knives vs. 6 knives, notably around the ammo capacity staying the same even though more knives are needed. I just want to make sure - did I miss any major context around that?
Trickster is still in a terrible place balance wise and more importantly FUN WISE. You have removed many aspects of his power that added nuance to his kit, made him feel dreadful on the Survivor end, and are STILL trying to balance around 8-Blade Laceration Meter, which is making his gameplay extremely dull. The current gameplay loop is to injure a survivor with knives if a basic attack isnt possible, then mow them down with main event, because otherwise you have to reload so often it's not worth it.
PLEASE. PLEASE. PLEEEEAAASE heavily reconsider this update. I plan to make a full forum post soon that will highlight my biggest frustration with this rework. I hope you will see it.
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Hey, peeping back into this thread again. I must say I'm really disappointed in the current patch, as 8 Knife Meter is still a thing.
I'm sorry, but 8-Knife trickster is not fun, was never fun, and will NEVER be fun or positive for the character. His Laceration meter should have remained at 6 or even been lowered to 5 if you wanted. Increasing throw rate by a negligible amount doesn't account for all the extra ammo wasted, the further decrease of Main Event's situational viability, and the amount of buffs required to make an 8-Knife Trickster strong.
I don't think it's a good direction for the character, I would've happily taken 6-Knife trickster with the 3kps throw rate and 10s decay time, as it still would've been pretty strong without needing to feel overbearing with the use of add-ons and Main Event. I don't see any possible way to balance 8 Knife Trickster that isn't incredibly annoying for one side. On PTB it was incredibly annoying for Survivors, as the nerfed meter was compensated heavily with throwing speed buffs nobody wanted. The Live release it was incredibly annoying for killers, as the patch has a ton of nerfs, and not a single solid buff to compensate aside from being 4.6m/s.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE reconsider some of these changes and try just going back to 6-Knife. I will be able to live with the previous 0.33s windup, just please stop trying to make 8-Knife work. It really just doesn't.
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Hey, popping back into this thread real quick to leave some more quick, honest thoughts after a bit more gameplay.
- Honestly, the throw rate isn't the big problem. The laceration meter is. I think most of this update could still be salvaged by going back to 6x Laceration per health state alone. It fixes SO MANY core issues with the rework I've been feeling. The annoying new hit sound effects that play with 8 Knife throw off my rhythm, and the terrible ammo economy.
- Throw Rate being slow still feels pretty boring though. Old Trickster punished survivors very hard for misplay, often forcing them to lose a health state. Now you get 2-3 Knives maximum, out of the 8 necessary for a health state. Terrible.
- Many add-ons are terrible now and new trickster relies heavily on add-ons. There are 6 Different add-ons for main event's duration. Why?
If the price we have to pay for 4.6m/s trickster is slow fire rate, extra reloading, and terrible addons, we really just want (most of) old trickster back. All he needed was a main event buff and recoil removed and most people would be happy. All the extra changes don't really make any sense.
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Hello. Trickster main since his release. I've witnessed all his highs and lows.
This update makes me incredibly sad. I spent almost 3 years with the character, and was comfortable with him never getting major changes. But out of nowhere, he gets a surprise update, that reduces a lot of what made him fun. The update was so bad, I didn't feel a need to purchase the new DLC, and I'm putting a pause on my Trickster P100 journey right at the finish line (Prestige 94.)
Trickster was always weird, since he had his own unique form of damage with his attacks, and a lot of other very unique mechanics not seen on any other killer (Recoil, An "Ultimate Ability," Throw Rate Growth, etc.) all of which were added very intentionally to discourage players from throwing at maximum speed all the time, but made it incredibly rewarding for those who COULD manage all those mechanics and hit their shots very quickly.
A lot of that has been taken away, making those previously very satisfying and fast downs impossible now.
As someone who played the very first iteration of Trickster, this current version feels worse than even that. He shoots too slow, has to hit too many times, and has very little time to follow-up his attacks before Survivors can break away, even if they are running out in the open for several seconds. This is a far cry from the killer I learned to enjoy, it's barely even comparable.
I find many of the changes completely unnecessary. Many of the new add-ons are impractical, and the ones that were updated to account for the new Main Event are less useful than ever, since the new Main Event is basically worthless! We already tried setting the Laceration meter at 8, and we already tried making the Laceration Decay 10 seconds, and it didn't work. I don't think we should be retreading that ground, while also making him throw knives at the slowest rate possible!
I honestly suggest going back to many of the previously established numbers and add-ons, and keeping only the mere quality-of-life buffs.
- Keep the changes to Trickster's Movement Speeds. being 4.6m/s and not slowing down while throwing makes him much more flexible in many tiles.
- Remove his Lullaby or considerably reduce the distance. / Reduce his Terror Radius back to the Original 24m. Either of these options works. The current Terror Radius + Lullaby makes it way too easy for survivors to run away from him before he has a chance to close the gap, making him more difficult on enclosed maps, where he was already very difficult.
- REVERT the changes made to Throw Rate, Laceration Meter, and Laceration Meter Decay. The old numbers were perfect, allowing you to very quickly down survivors who made mistakes, while also making it achievable for survivors with good pathing who know how to break line of sight to escape. Additionally, his ammo count was very manageable when it only required 6 Blades to injure, whereas the current number doesn't match very well at all.
- Set Main Event's throw rate back to the original 6kps, return it's duration to 10 Seconds, and remove the Combo Bonus system. In exchange, rework the activation slightly. I suggest making Main Event require 10 Consecutive Blade hits without missing to activate. This makes it more of a skill-oriented ability that can activate very frequently or infrequently depending on your experience with the character.
On top of all these Basekit changes, several add-ons of Trickster's still need reworks, reverts, and other new effects that would fill out his kit. So here are my personal suggestions.
- Death Throes Compilation - Reverted to previous effect.
- Iridescent Photocard - Maximum haste reduced to 5%, to match the reduced Laceration meter.
- Trick Blades - New condition: Blades only ricochet if they've travelled less than 12m.
- Fizz-Spin Soda, Ji-Woon's Autograph - Reverted to previous effects.
- Ripper Brace - New effect: Apply Hemorrhage status effect to Survivors injured by Blades
- On Target Single - Increases time before Laceration meter begins decaying by 5s (was 2s)
- Tequila Moonrock, Inferno Wires - Reverted to previous effects.
- Memento Blades - New effect: Decreases Blade hits required to activate Main Event by 2.
I feel like these changes would be enough to make the character feel good to play again, and would increase his current strength by a moderate amount. I really don't think he ever needed major changes, but even though I didn't like the update, I can still appreciate that there was some effort put in to try.
TL;DR, please consider going back on many of the changes. The old version was extremely fun and I feel very sad that the new version just isn't comparable. Thank you.