Maddoka
Maddoka
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- Maddoka
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@Skitten56 said:
I feel you OP. Your post reminds me of many of us Onryo mains months ago when they rolled out her rework and how we felt it made her a lot less fun to play. Between Trickers and Onryo's reworks. I hope BHVR will look at how they affect the people who enjoy and main them and avoid complete gameplay changing reworks to their power in the future.
Its okay to have niche killers that only a small amount of people take the time to learn and do well with. A lot of people say Singularity is a bad killer but for those of us that can play him well, he is actually an incredibly strong killer. Killers like this do not need reworks in my opinion just because a portion of the player base doesn't want to take the time to get good with them or just doesn't know how to take advantage of their strengths. I would be very sad if they simplified Singularity in a rework because of people complaining about their power.
Old Trickster could be a pain for many because of the recoil on his power, especially on console, but that was just part of the skill of playing him. I agree with OP that the rework did remove a lot of the fun and interesting nuances to his power. Simply making it easier to land hits with no recoil and increasing the amount of necessary hits just makes it take longer to down. However importantly it removes some of the rewarding skill of landing hits, as it removes some of the skill of playing them and managing the recoil mechanic. Changes to mechanics like this are what disappoint me most about the direction BHVR has been taking the game recently.
TLDR: A killer may be difficult to use or less popular but the people who do love them and perform well at them don't want the gameplay they enjoy to suddenly go away. It would be nice if they could try to balance or improve such killers without making the killer feel like a different killer by changing core mechanics.
Not my previous comment getting deleted bcuz of saying duck-
Anyways. What you're saying is 100% valid, BHVR should try to stop making every killer mainstream just for nobody to actually pick them up instead of forcing the mains to drop the killer.
I hope they don't change Twins too much for this exact reason.
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@Skitten56 said:
I feel you OP. Your post reminds me of many of us Onryo mains months ago when they rolled out her rework and how we felt it made her a lot less fun to play. Between Trickers and Onryo's reworks. I hope BHVR will look at how they affect the people who enjoy and main them and avoid complete gameplay changing reworks to their power in the future.
Its okay to have niche killers that only a small amount of people take the time to learn and do well with. A lot of people say Singularity is a bad killer but for those of us that can play him well, he is actually an incredibly strong killer. Killers like this do not need reworks in my opinion just because a portion of the player base doesn't want to take the time to get good with them or just doesn't know how to take advantage of their strengths. I would be very sad if they simplified Singularity in a rework because of people complaining about their power.
Old Trickster could be a pain for many because of the recoil on his power, especially on console, but that was just part of the skill of playing him. I agree with OP that the rework did remove a lot of the fun and interesting nuances to his power. Simply making it easier to land hits with no recoil and increasing the amount of necessary hits just makes it take longer to down. However importantly it removes some of the rewarding skill of landing hits, as it removes some of the skill of playing them and managing the recoil mechanic. Changes to mechanics like this are what disappoint me most about the direction BHVR has been taking the game recently.
TLDR: A killer may be difficult to use or less popular but the people who do love them and perform well at them don't want the gameplay they enjoy to suddenly go away. It would be nice if they could try to balance or improve such killers without making the killer feel like a different killer by changing core mechanics.
This is so true and I'm scared for Twins mains. Like, I just don't see a killers issue if they're considered weak and there are some super dedicated people that love them. Why take away someone's main just so the community can say 'This killers seems a bit better now' yet those people already have another main so they're not going to swap to said killer either. So you're literally not helping anyone and f-ing over the mains. Such weird decision making.
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@StarstruckFrog said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3619811#Comment_3619811
The major difference is, Huntress needs to wind-up for 3.5x longer than trickster (1.25s of windup compared to tricksters 0.35s,) and she needs to wind-up for even longer (3s) to get a comparable projectile speed. Add to this that she moves way slower than trickster does, moving about 25% slower than survivors, meanwhile trickster only moves a mere 4% slower than a survivor. Additionally, trickster's smaller, faster projectiles are able to be thrown over, through, and below many more obstacles than huntress, especially thanks to his two different throwing angles (left and right hand vs Huntress' sole left throwing arm.) Add that trickster is now 115, and in a chase, and trickster is far more consistent when mastered.
This update really is a huge bummer. We finally could've seen trickster be decently strong and recognized for his cool aspects, but most of them were removed or nerfed. :(
This things may be true on paper but Huntress is just way better in chase because of how little mistakes the survs can make and I'll stand by that. Run a good surv on some really strong loops with Trickster and you will notice how many times you could have gotten the injure waaaaay earlier with Huntress.
Tho I don't even really want to compare the two- I wish they both were different enough so not everyone would constantly compare them but we can only dream.
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@Liozio said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3619078#Comment_3619078
She's one of if not the MOST map dependant killer in DBD though.
The different between Huntress and especially 8-blade Trickster is tho, is that if you are good enough the surv only has to show themselves for a split second to take a health state. On shack for example, a surv can deny LoS a ton if they play it smart but a Huntress easily takes advantage of the tiny moments you're seen while this is much more difficult to achieve with Trickster since the surv can take the same loop several times to deny that LoS. Especially since you'd probably have to see a surv 3/4 times where Huntress only needs to see them 1 time.
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@StarstruckFrog said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618939#Comment_3618939
Eh, he's not nearly as map dependent as huntress, thanks to his faster speed across the board. Just gotta use your knives differently.
Huntress is way less map dependant. If the surv knows how to loop a Trickster it's really not that simple to just get a hit w blades, especially w 8 Laceration.
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@StarstruckFrog said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618686#Comment_3618686
Agreed. New trickster is very hard to lose in chase, especially with Memento Blades. Increasing his base throwing speed and bumping the laceration decay time back up has made it miserable to lose him.
Not as miserable as being on a map with only tall loops and going against survs that actually have experience. Tbh he will never be truly balanced because of how different the experience to play him is per map IMO.
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IMO the main issue with 8 blade Trickster is that is srsly really made his most weak point weaker. I personally am a person that leartn to enjoy spamming Main Event. It's fun. But in the end, it's not 'Good'. A good surv has an easier time against current Main Event because you are stuck in slower movement+can't switch to the bat than a good surv had against 110 Trickster simply because of the 6 laceration meter.
I personally liked the 8 Laceration meter, I felt like I had to play better. At first. Now I feel like it's the exact same feeling, except for at *tall wall loops*. That one place he already struggled at. I've faced Tricksters that were forced to drop chase because of it. It's just kind of sad that his weak point has been made weaker and nothing else truly changed. I read OPs post a while ago, and ngl, don't remember that much of it but a lot of the points made in the comments are quite valid.
Now I don't think current Trickster is terrible, but if I could choose between old 110% Trickster or current Trickster, I'd revert.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
after reading this, i think this is a prime example of a user not understanding any of the changes. so I just briefly talk about some of statements.
Main event is not having identity crisis. one of the changes regarding the new trickster was how ramp up is scaling. previously scaling of ramp up was how many knives you threw in quick succession however because survivor could LOS the trickster, the 0-33% ramp-up was ineffective in most cases because you would almost never throw that many consecutive knives within loops themselves. Now the ramp up is Main Event itself. Instead of having a random 0-33% ramp up, it is flat scale of 66% increased throwing-rate. Since you get to activate it when you want to activate it, you can time when you should get the power-up as opposed old system of throwing-rate which gave you no control over using main event and no control over build-up.
Trickster's default throwing mode is not primary focus on trickster. Trickster's throwing mode is solely there to charge main event. It still is serviceable throwing mode but it is not main focus on his ability. in short, it is build up to his real power, main event. this is why laceration meter remains unchanged. His throwing mode is slightly improved in his buffs and in some ways, you can use Memento blades to improve it to 3.70 TPS which is closer to PTB throwing-rate however you are arbitrary suppose to rely on main event to gain downs. This leads to last point in regards ammo efficiency. Trickster's ammo efficiency base-kit is better than ever minus old Death throes compilation because in previous old trickster, you needed 12 knives worth of ammo to down the survivor. In new trickster, you only need 8 knives because using main event does not consume ammo to get other remaining 8 hits. On average, your about 33% more ammo efficiency if you successful use main event every chase.
I disagree that this is a user not understanding the changes. The changes that were made to Trickster made him pretty damn different to play than he used to, and I completely understand people who used to play him disliking this new playstyle.
I too personally still prefer old Trickster. The only real fun thing for me ATM is trying to get as many down with Waiting-on-you Watch but his knife gameplay is not specifically more fun than it was.
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@dance said:
Thanks y'all for sharing your thoughts not just on Memento Blade but the other Add-ons - and Trickster in general.
Well if you need Trickster feedback in general, I really think that you should have given him some more love lore-wise/aestethically. Like, Legion got Addon chase music changes in their rework, why not Trickster? Plus, he should have really gotten a map (Just like Twins and Blight). These things are very important to his playstyle and balance, trust me.
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@dance said:
Thanks all. Glad to hear that for several of you The Trickster feels better after the most recent changes. For those who think he feels in a pretty good spot - is it accurate to say that the biggest pain point / concern is his Add-ons? Specifically that Memento Blades feels like a must-have and/or that the others are too weak to provide much variety?
For those who feel The Trickster still isn't quite how you would want him - I saw a few comments about 8 knives vs. 6 knives, notably around the ammo capacity staying the same even though more knives are needed. I just want to make sure - did I miss any major context around that?
Considering I just noticed this-
If Memento Blades are base-kit and no blade speed addons get added, we get more variety. I used to always run Trick Blades but I don't have addon space for it rn due to Memento, and Waiting-on-you watch just being way too good to pass out on. Combo Addons also suck btw.
If you make him 6 knives or up his ammo capacity, I think it's unfair on the survs. I'm really of the opinion that if you cannot get the down with his current ammo, the surv simply outplayed you and I think that should be allowed.
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So I've played current Trickster quite a bit now, and feel like I can give a proper opinion.
I'll start off by saying that, balance-wise, I genuinely think he didn't change that much. I'd say he's probably a little better than he was before the chaos happened. (So pre-PTB) His minor nerfs at this point are probably less bad than the few buffs he got, but it just feels like his power simply shifted from being an M2 killer to using Main Event as much as possible. Which really is mostly different instead of a huge buff.
However, the main issues that you wanted to resolve IMO both still remain. A long loop with a tall wall and a singular pallet is pretty much his downfall if the survivor knows what they're doing. At the same time, being caught in a bad position a single moment as a surv is simply a guaranteed down if the Trickster is good enough. Now it's for you guys to decide if this is a big issue or not, but I personally think this is an unavoidable part of his power unless he gets an actual rework which I think most Trickster mains really wouldn't want.
Then about fun for both sides; He's fun to play again. He was terrible to play for a while but this version is, at the very least, fun. With proper use of Main Event, it can help him a bit against these tall loops which can catch a surv off guard so that's quite nice. He's really similar to play against, though. Frustrating on some maps, fun on other maps. It's sadly just a bit lame that M1 is so much more viable now bcuz of the 115% that if the Trickster is just not good with bladse, they just resort to getting the Bloodlust down but I guess this is also just unavoidable.
In the end, I still prefer old(Pre-PTB) Trickster. But he's fine now I guess. One thing that everyone does say though is that blade speed addons (Memento blades atm) are just going to be a waste to create. Blade speed is simply going to be the best to use no matter what. I hope you will consider making Memento Blades main kit, and not making any blade speed addons. Or just consider still reverting him to how he was. X3
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@dance said:
We're making some changes to The Trickster in today's hotfix. Please let us know what you think after the update goes live and you've had a chance to try them out!
The Trickster
- Decreased the base time between throws to 0.3 seconds (was 0.33)
- Increased the Main Event throw rate multiplier to 66% (was 33%)
- Increased the Main Event active duration to 6 seconds (was 5 seconds)
- Reverted the time before Laceration starts decaying to 15 seconds (was 10 seconds)
Honestly, reading this, kinda makes me lose hope.
I'm not sure what you guys were planning for Trickster. As long as his blades will remain weaker than OG Trickster(So before PTB but after the initial buff. The way he was for years.) I don't think many people see a point in playing him. Yes, there are a low amount of people who like the more M1 focused gameplay, but if you look around online and read this thread, it's clear that most people played him for the M2 gamestyle. And I am so confused why you're trying to take that away from him.
At this point, even as someone who mostly plays surv, I'd rather you bring back PTB Trickster (But with current Death Throes iri) than what we have right now. I am personally really of the belief that you should honestly consider reverting him so that those who loved to play him get their main back, and if you still want to change him later, fine. But these micro changes every few weeks are just not going to make anyone want to play him rn.
Also, personal curiousity, not sure if this will be answered but worth a shot; Would BHVR ever consider actually reworking Main Event to give it some sort of different effect or mechanic than it is now?
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@Mandy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3602725#Comment_3602725
don't worry, there's no plans to remove him being 4.6m/s!
What is the plan to balance him, in that case? If he stays 4.6, it seems like his blade game will remain weaker than before. If that's true, I don't really understand why he's even a ranged killer.
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@dance said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3601888#Comment_3601888
We've been reading through all the feedback in this thread (huge THANK YOU again to everyone for sharing your thoughts !), as well as on social and other platforms, and passing it along to the rest of the team. We have noted everything that we've seen - including the laceration feedback.
Not trying to sound rude, but if you have been reading around alot I'm sure you must have noticed how many people are asking to at least revert him so his mains can enjoy him again.
I'm not sure why the team would have to try all these bandaid methods (Like whatever that brown addon 'buff' is supossed to be) instead. Wouldn't reverting the changes not be easy while you try too figure out what to actually do with this killer?
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I'm gonna start off by saying that I feel like it's genuinely best to revert Trickster and rethink this entire rework. Because right now, he is not fun to play or play against.
Trickster, rn, just feels like a glorified M1 killer like many have said. As much as alot of people disagree, I think this can never be fixed if he is not reverted back to 110%. Balancing a range killer around 115% is so hard, unless there is an insane cooldown between getting out the bat after using blades.
Trickster is my second most used killer, and he was just loads more fun before the change. Was he better? Probably not, but I think most Trickster mains agree they're rather have fun that play him in his current, sluggish state. There is of course the huge issue with him being hard to loop on certain maps, but that should be resolved in a different way.
I personally enjoy the fact recoil is taken away, but I'm curious if he would be more fun to play and play against if his blade speed increase when throwing(instead of it always being 3 or 4 blades a second) would return, yet also add more and more recoil the faster you throw. It would reward playing him more patiently, but also allow people to have fun and use him as an SMG while it's less frustrating for the surv since more recoil means he'd be easier to dodge.
Also, the laceration meter decaying slower when you hit longer ranged blades is something I'd love to see.