Liozio
Liozio
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@Liozio said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3707931#Comment_3707931
That's not fair to OP at all, they said they liked recoil but are fine with it not coming back.
Recoil was very integral to balancing the absolutely ballistic rof pre 7.4 Trickster had but most people don't seem to realise this and just want to spray everywhere and be rewarded for it which is a very large reduction in his skill ceiling imo.
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@ChainsLogic said:
Yeah, you lost me once you wrote you wanted recoil to come back.
That's not fair to OP at all, they said they liked recoil but are fine with it not coming back.
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@FreeKnives said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3622288#Comment_3622288
I can appreciate that Starstruck. You were playing in a different way, and different from the people that I know and follow. (In regards to not needing Main Event with 4.4 Trickster)
However, I think making changes so that he finds more value in his base knives through add-ons is better than trying to make his base kit cater to that specific sentiment of ME not valuable.
Ironically, even though the rework you are painting for this Trickster is more punishing for acquiring Main Event, it feels like it is trying to get closer to 4.4 Trickster; yet, your view on Main Event value, meant you were disregarding one of the most difficult accuracy playstyles that you could achieve with 4.4 Trickster. His Main Event value with no reload.
The no reload playstyle with Death Throes Compilation (DTC) of 4.4 Trickster, which required you to be as accurate as possible to get value from DTC was a very rewarding and difficult playstyle when your goal was to achieve 1-0 reloads a match. VERY difficult to do, and required a lot of thought and knife management. I was striving for it but at best got 2 reloads with DTC in a match. I avoid saying the words “reload for free” because that ######### was not free, it was hard. It doesn’t seem like you ever tried that style, if you are disregarding Tricksters Main Event like you are and that’s a shame. I think you would have liked that playstyle based on what you like about high accuracy, and people like yourself might have seen the value and potential in this character's special ability had they tried that specific reward system. Not to mention that once you start getting higher in MMR, and the wild west of duplicate meta perks, Tricksters Main Event management is what made him competitive with competitive swfs in high MMR.
I’m telling you… the idea that Main Event was invaluable was the exact mentality or view that led BHVR to think Main Event needed to be changed in the first place. And with him changing meant reworking everything to fit New Main Event.
I also played 4.4 Trickster as I've said and I enjoyed a lot of things about that version’s base kit too. But with Main Event being frequent, Trickster being more aggressive in chase, and being 4.6, his kit needed to be altered. Laceration decay can’t be below 15s, its too punishing with 8 knife/16 down. And 6 Knife is better for 4.4 version Trickster, for counter play.
I think where the current Trickster is still ailing or not feeling good, is becoming apparent though. Some things that I can see that we agree on like the frequency of Main Event, being tweaked to hover around 12-16 to activate, is a common sentiment. Starstruck, I know you don’t find value of Main Event, but for the majority who do, shares the sentiment of having a bit longer Main Event, whether reward-based through a buffed Combo System to allow a much longer ME or integrated from Tequila Moonrock into base kit ME, or having both (my opinion) is a shared sentiment. We all agree his add-ons need a buff and also some creativity. They are all still based on a 6 knife/12 down Trickster, and many are weak and don’t promote variety of playstyles. But I do think keeping certain add-ons Main Event Orientated as they are is good, they just need more to them.
Whether you liked old Trickster more or not, this is the version we have now. This Trickster’s current kit accommodates for a different Main Event. If you removed his Main Event, made it too difficult to achieve or disregarded it as a I dont care about it (which would be a tragedy…) hes just Huntress 2.0. Many people do not want Huntress Trickster, including myself. I would be so depressed if that happened….If I wanted to play like Huntress, base kit, I would just play Huntress. But I got to be honest…I only play this game to master Trickster, if that was no longer fun or felt he was just a knock off character of another....I dont think I would play this game as much.
Add-ons to accommodate a Huntress-like playstyle, with long shots… is okay though, I think one Revvium's add-on suggestions I mentioned in original forum, rewards a player for snipes or hole shots… but he is too unique to make him just a Huntress. His Main Event is important to this character whether 4.4 or 4.6 version. Can it be altered and tweaked? Absolutely. But with the acknowledgment that it is a core part of this character and should remain so.
Trickster is so fun to go against. He requires you to be on your toes, and good teamwork because of Main Event. Many people don’t understand the goal with Trickster is not to not go down at all, but to spread out and avoid grouping up, spreading out the downs and wasting his time. He's an intense killer because of the looming threat of Main Event and I love it.
OP does not like main event in general, why are people just ignoring what they're saying entirely?
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3622612#Comment_3622612
Because if those changes are implemented, then Trickster would be absolute complete trash.
Disagree. Better lethality + ammo economy more than make up for the nerfs.
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@Liozio said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3622592#Comment_3622592
If you think OPs ideas are garbage why engage? Its fine to agree to disagree. There's nothing constructive coming out of this.
Trickster is punished with less MEs and more reloads as is. OP cares about the surv counterplay a lot imo.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3622577#Comment_3622577
As I mentioned before, the entire point of rapid fire gameplay, is accepting the fact that Trickster shouldn't ever be expected to have 100%, or near 100% accuracy. So every single idea you create, that heavily punishes Trickster for missing, is garbage. And yes, frequent Main Events are a mandatory part of rapid fire gameplay, as it's the only time he can bother to try hitting survivors that aren't near him, because of how easy it is to micro dodge knives at mid to far ranges.
We already have a projectile killer that heavily encouraged to have 100% accuracy (Huntress), and Trickster needs to have rapid fire gameplay in order to have his own identity, and a reason to pick him instead of Huntress. And yes, people can make Youtube montages from Huntress hatchets, so "I want to make montages" isn't an good enough excuse to ruin Trickster for the rest of us.
If you think OPs ideas are garbage why engage? Its fine to agree to disagree. There's nothing constructive coming out of this.
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@Revvium said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3622511#Comment_3622511
The OP conveyed the intent to "make it much less valuable in the base kit" forgive me if I'm using verbiage that can be pieced together through context as to what I mean. And yes, the math works out to gutting it from the basekit because it would require a 80% accuracy rating which current 1000+ hr trickster mains don't maintain. let alone controller aim can make possible, let alone what first time trickster on controller can make possible. It would absolutely be an axe to main event.
Its a middle ground between old 30 blade and current 6 though. I feel there's a lack of consideration of the surv experience here, so I'm just going to agree to disagree.
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@Revvium said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3622292#Comment_3622292
I agree that old Trickster had a special feeling in base-kit without main event. I just don't think gutting main event needs to happen in order to restore the basekit flashiness we had before.
OPs changes do not gut main event, they make it fairer to acquire and go against. I'd personally make 1 miss = 1 charge lost rather than two if it were up to me.
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@Revvium said:
My Trickster Version (not including addons)
4.6 M/s, 3.86 M/s while holding knives(ramping slow), 24m Terror radius, 40m lullaby
8 knives to injure | 3 Ramping to 4 Knives per second w/ slowdown(Prerwk) | 44 ammo
15 second decay
12/16 knives to charge main event
base main event duration(6 sec) x1.66 throwrate = 6.4kps Showstopper fatigue set to 4
Combo system (same but improved)
S(8knives) = 6 second extension + 1 bounce
A(7knives) = 5 second extension + 5% movespeed to M.E.
B(6knives) = 4 second extension + bonus 5% throwrate to Main event
C(5knives) = 3 second extension
D(4knives) = 2 second extension
E(3knives) = 1 second extension
+Mapwide announcement of main event charged(for survivors)
+Visual feedback system of the combo system(let people know what combo they are at)
Only part of these changes I agree with is the indication ME is charged whether that be a visual, audio or both, and the increased requirement of charges to get into main event. I feel like the rest of the changes are overtuning him quite a bit and further pushing main event combos which is something me and OP really don't like due to the gameplay style it incentivizes.
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@ABAEX said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3619875#Comment_3619875
when you are survivor you will know how
now 4.6 is 3.3 b/s 50% acc need 16b mean need 4.85s to hit survivor. and have 10% addons when in main event is 6.12b/s means need 2.6s to down a survivor
before 4.4 is 3.5~4 b/s 50% acc need 12b mean need 3.2s to hit.
if killer still 4.4 the 6 blades are good but now is 4.6 killer.
But this doesn't prove that 6 is worse than 8. Current throw rate is 1 blade every 0.3 seconds or 3.33333333 blades a second exactly (no rounding, I don't round usually).
0.3*8=2.4
0.3*6=1.8
This would mean that making no changes to throw rate and having it be 6 blades to take a health state, thus, 6 better than 8. I can prove this further too. 44/8 is 5.5 health states. 44/6 is 7.33333333 health states.
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@Maddoka said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3619827#Comment_3619827
This things may be true on paper but Huntress is just way better in chase because of how little mistakes the survs can make and I'll stand by that. Run a good surv on some really strong loops with Trickster and you will notice how many times you could have gotten the injure waaaaay earlier with Huntress.
Tho I don't even really want to compare the two- I wish they both were different enough so not everyone would constantly compare them but we can only dream.
Then don't compare them. Trickster isn't really comparable to any other killer in DBD honestly. The way he currently is feels like the original implementation of Legion with a ranged attack.
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@Maddoka said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3619827#Comment_3619827
This things may be true on paper but Huntress is just way better in chase because of how little mistakes the survs can make and I'll stand by that. Run a good surv on some really strong loops with Trickster and you will notice how many times you could have gotten the injure waaaaay earlier with Huntress.
Tho I don't even really want to compare the two- I wish they both were different enough so not everyone would constantly compare them but we can only dream.
I cannot imagine many tiles where Huntress gets hits Trickster cannot. He has the fastest projectiles in the game (its afaik impossible to actually make a projectile go faster than his which are 55 m/s), his hitboxes are smaller, and his charge time is exponentially lower.
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@ABAEX said:
8 KNIFE LACERATION METER is good. can't low than 7
3.33 THROW RATE is enough for 4.6.
MAIN EVENT defult 5s
- E combo：+0.5秒
- D combo：+1秒
- C combo：+1.5秒
- B combo：+2秒 (8 knife)
- A combo：+2.5秒 (never)
- S combo：+3秒 (never)
B combo is enough 7s
I still fail to see how 8 blades are good when its objectively worse than 6.
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@Maddoka said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3619128#Comment_3619128
The different between Huntress and especially 8-blade Trickster is tho, is that if you are good enough the surv only has to show themselves for a split second to take a health state. On shack for example, a surv can deny LoS a ton if they play it smart but a Huntress easily takes advantage of the tiny moments you're seen while this is much more difficult to achieve with Trickster since the surv can take the same loop several times to deny that LoS. Especially since you'd probably have to see a surv 3/4 times where Huntress only needs to see them 1 time.
Trickster and Huntress can both hit survivors through shack on certain areas (unless the shacks are bugged or something), so I cannot agree with this statement.
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@Liozio said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3619078#Comment_3619078
She's one of if not the MOST map dependant killer in DBD though.
Cause despite me despising its current implementation, at least current main event can knife save a hell of a lot more often than it used to. Huntress is 110, she slows to 3.08 m/s when a hatchet is fully charged, she has partial and full charged power states and she has less health states than trickster does.
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@Maddoka said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618962#Comment_3618962
Huntress is way less map dependant. If the surv knows how to loop a Trickster it's really not that simple to just get a hit w blades, especially w 8 Laceration.
She's one of if not the MOST map dependant killer in DBD though.
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I'm done with this discussion honestly (unless a Community Manager / dev wants clarification on something.)
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@Liozio said:
m
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618638#Comment_3618638
I've already explained several times why I think the way I do. Feels like people just are ignoring my points tbh.
I'm aware its intentional. I've made it clear many times why I dislike it and how I'd change it.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618523#Comment_3618523
tap-firing like that would decrease your m/s and increase recoil. in practice, the character is not suppose tap-fire or burst-fire. your only doing that in loops because your throwing m/s is low. Letting go of your throwing mode made you lose throwing-rate bonus so in practice, you never got to rapid-fire with him due to LOS blockers.
In every single clip I've watched of new trickster, I have been able to pinpoint the exact moment 6 blades would lose a health state. I've watched survivors make it to an entirely new tile because of the 8 hit requirement.
It is not fair to compare old main event to new in this way due to the massive difference in frequency, especially since you had to hit 30/44 of your ammo count (almost 69% of your ammo give or take) for one main event rather than getting it in every single chase. The PTB for the rework proved this at its core was a terrible idea, but BHVR doubled down on it and reduced the requirement by two blades when the requirement should never have been so low in the first place.
ME occurring in every chase is intentional. the reason why his base-throwing mode is not main event throwing mode is balance. his base-throwing mode is worse other ranged killers due to time to injure(TTI) being worse but his main event is best throwing mode in the game because it has approximately the same time TTI as other ranged killers with added bonus that trickster does not need to re-wind up his weapon.
The intention of Main Event was to make it a reward for extremely high accuracy, and now it just rewards you for the bare minimum. I can miss 36 knives in a row but as long as I just backrev you and hit 8, I get what is basically a free down despite missing literally 81.81% of my ammo capacity.
Back-reving a survivor with knives defeats purpose of a ranged killer. The whole point of being ranged killer is to attack from outside your m1 range. @Coffeecrashing already talks about accuracy. he is not suppose to be accurate killer with 100% accuracy. Your inherent suppose to miss with him.
I've already explained several times why I think the way I do. It feels like you're just ignoring / not reading my points honestly.
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@Liozio said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618585#Comment_3618585
But OP does not want purely rapid fire gameplay and neither do I and a few others which seems to be the point you're not trying to understand at all.
Honestly I'm just gonna give up responding to you, you're not really reading or acknowledging anything I say at all and you did this to OP as well. If you want the killer to remain as is, so be it, but I'm no longer gonna waste my time with someone who won't actually have a debate, so I'm just gonna agree to disagree and move on.
Last and final point I will make to you (pretty sure you won't read it but whatever): Trickster still has rapid fire gameplay even with these proposed changes.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618572#Comment_3618572
1) I don't know why you made 7 separate replies for my 1 comment.
2) I want Trickster to have rapid fire gameplay. And I don't want him to have any anti-rapid-fire game mechanics
3) The combo events are an example of a pro rapid fire mechanic done correctly. I like pro rapid fire. I want the combo event in the game, because it's pro rapid fire. I'm not sure how many different ways I need to say this.
4) Your proposed main event idea is anti rapid fire, and should therefore never happen. Anti rapid fire mechanics are bad. I feel like I need to say this 50 times, because multiple people in this thread seem to be confused about this.
But OP does not want purely rapid fire gameplay and neither do I and a few others which seems to be the point you're not trying to understand at all.
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I can expand on my above proposed change in a bit greater detail if needed.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618523#Comment_3618523
The whole point of tap firing, is that we used to bypass recoil by tap firing at the maximum non-recoil rate, or by double tap firing knives (the recoil happens after the 2nd knife is launched, so you could double tap, adjust the camera, then double tap again). With that style of gameplay, 6 knife Trickster was way more powerful than current Trickster.
The removal of recoil was really only a bonus for console players. Anyone that is used to other PvP games, is so used to weapons having recoil, that we can deal with recoil if we have to.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618510#Comment_3618510
The combo mechanic starts giving rewards at 2 consecutive hits, and doesn't take away rewards if Trickster misses. For example, if Trickster throws 30 knives during main event, hits 4 knives in a row, then misses the next 10 knives, he still gets a C Combo, with the C Combo rewards.
This combo mechanic is completely different from an addon that gives rewards for consecutive hits, but takes away the rewards if Trickster misses. That is the part that's anti-rapid fire... the part where Trickster gets punished for missing. The combo mechanic is an example of a rapid fire reward done correctly.
If this were truly anti-rapid fire, your combo in the scenario you gave would surely entirely disappear (which would punish those players with lower accuracy and force you to be careful with your hits, even if rapid firing) since you threw 14 knives, hit 4 and missed the other 10?
My Main Event (similar to OPs, some slightly different numbers for mine though I believe), changes involve removing the combo extension mechanic and instead adding a charge depletion mechanic (on missing blade hits on survivors),.
I would argue that this fits your want of anti rapid-fire more than your own logic regarding the main event duration extension mechanic, since missing 10 blades in this system would result in my proposed 15 charges required to access main event system almost entirely depleting the amount of charges you have if you were say, at 14 charges after hitting 4 blades (in this example you were at 10 charges and required 5 consecutive hits in order to be rewarded with a charged main event), but you then happened to have missed the last 10 blades you had, resulting in no ammo left and dropping you back down to 4/15 charges.
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The mechanic is entirely pro rapid fire because more blades hit means higher combos, and we can both agree here that the best way to get the most hits is to backrev the survivor, to minimize the chance of you missing since your target is incredibly close to you.
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Its a really confusing mechanic on paper, and even me explaining it hasn't resulted in the best explanation. It is not explained anywhere in game or in the power description minus on the wiki, to my knowledge either, and thus it should be removed and exclusively used as it used to be: for score events.
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@Liozio said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618564#Comment_3618564
If combo was shown on the HUD and it straight up showed your combo grade and showed it dropping when missing I'd agree with you, but as far as I understand, the combo system checks how many knives out of 8 you hit within a 6 second period and awards you the following grades:
E: 0.5 second extension
D: 1
C: 1.5
B: 2
A: 2.5
S: 3
- Main Event Combo Duration bonus: +0.5 seconds per Combo Rank
- The Trickster gains half a second of duration to Main Event for each Combo Rank he achieves by chaining together successful Blade Hits (see below).
Combo Times:
- E Combo: +0.5 seconds
- D Combo: +1 second
- C Combo: +1.5 seconds
- B Combo: +2 seconds
- A Combo: +2.5 seconds
- S Combo: +3 seconds
Combo Thresholds:
- This refers to on how many consecutive Blade Hits are needed to reach each Combo Rank.
- E Combo: 2 Blades
- D Combo: 3 Blades
- C Combo: 4 Blades
- B Combo: 5 Blades
- A Combo: 6 Blades
- S Combo: 8 Blades
(From the wiki, and it claims the combo buffer duration is 4 seconds, which suggests to me you need to hit these blades within the 4 second margins).
These also apply within main event itself, extending your next main event. Missing here does not decrease your combo unless you missed an absolute huge amount and took zero health states within the 4 second period.
This mechanic is also something you said you were against given your stance regarding mechanics that reward chain hitting no?
- Main Event Combo Duration bonus: +0.5 seconds per Combo Rank
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@Liozio said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618550#Comment_3618550
I'm not sure you understand how the combo mechanic works. You do not lose combo if you miss unless you missed an absolute tonne of knives.
If combo was shown on the HUD and it straight up showed your combo grade and showed it dropping when missing I'd agree with you, but as far as I understand, the combo system checks how many knives out of 8 you hit within a 4 second period and awards you the following grades:
E: 0.5 second extension
D: 1
C: 1.5
B: 2
A: 2.5
S: 3
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618523#Comment_3618523
The whole point of tap firing, is that we used to bypass recoil by tap firing at the maximum non-recoil rate, or by double tap firing knives (the recoil happens after the 2nd knife is launched, so you could double tap, adjust the camera, then double tap again). With that style of gameplay, 6 knife Trickster was way more powerful than current Trickster.
The removal of recoil was really only a bonus for console players. Anyone that is used to other PvP games, is so used to weapons having recoil, that we can deal with recoil if we have to.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618510#Comment_3618510
The combo mechanic starts giving rewards at 2 consecutive hits, and doesn't take away rewards if Trickster misses. For example, if Trickster throws 30 knives during main event, hits 4 knives in a row, then misses the next 10 knives, he still gets a C Combo, with the C Combo rewards.
This combo mechanic is completely different from an addon that gives rewards for consecutive hits, but takes away the rewards if Trickster misses. That is the part that's anti-rapid fire... the part where Trickster gets punished for missing. The combo mechanic is an example of a rapid fire reward done correctly.
I'm not sure you understand how the combo mechanic works. You do not lose combo if you miss unless you missed an absolute tonne of knives.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3616012#Comment_3616012
With 6-Knife and ramp up you could consistently tap-fire in loops anywhere, and quickly mow people down whenever you got the upper hand. It was always the survivors fault if they went down too quickly.
but you can still do that. tap-firing has no relationship between throw-rate. If you tap-firing, your not gaining any throwing speed in old one or new one. this cement my point is that having faster throw-rate was meaningless at loops because your tap-firing.
now with current iteration, you can "hold" your fire-rate stacks in main event and then unleash a bigger bonus when you believe the time is right. in that sense, throwing-rate and how trickster power-up is clever change.
Difference being, main event has it's own (longer) windup, limited duration, a fatigue state when it ends, and can be countered by lockers easily.
The skill in playing trickster is knowing when to use main event. so yes, the ability has drawbacks and counters.
This post isn't about how trickster is weaker, he's far from it, it's about how trickster playstyle has devolved and degraded so much due to the changes that his kit is no longer fun to use.
his play-style is still same. only negative changes he received are those from PTB->Live. everything else is improved. the main one being that 6->8 throwing-rate change is mismatch to his base throwing speed which is 3.33(0.3). he only received 10% increase in base-throwing mode but the change from 6->8 is 33% reduction in his ability to injure. so overall, your base-throwing mode is -23% worse then previous iteration but like I said, the base-throwing mode is suppose to be used to power-up your true ability, main event.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3616010#Comment_3616010
I think knives play is overall same or similar. He has less impact per knife he hits but he is more spammy. That is kinda of his identity. He's suppose to be spammy. If your looking to play more precision flick-aim based killer that has less focus on track-aiming you should look into other two ranged namely huntress or deathslinger.
First point here isn't true, your throw rate would increase if you threw within a certain time period but it used to also increase the recoil from each blade. You could avoid this entirely by throwing within specific intervals I cannot remember off the top of my head (I want to say it was every 0.2 seconds or so but I'm not 100% on that.)
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@Liozio said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3616862#Comment_3616862
Rapid fire gameplay is fine if its not something that a kit is trying to force in every situation, but the changes do not allow as much freedom to learn angles and go for those more accurate shots that OP enjoys a lot.
Your second point is just also straight up not true at all, you tap fire at medium range. It's a huge reason why decay at 15 vs decay at 10 makes him feel like an entirely different killer.
By all logic you've used, removing main event would be the best option because its something that rewards consecutive hits, which is something you have said you're against, right?
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@Coffeecrashing said:
These suggestions go against the entire point of Trickster's rework, which is to have rapid fire gameplay...
1) Having anything that rewards consecutive hits, goes against rapid fire gameplay. Expecting a 100% accuracy rate during rapid fire is so very unrealistic and awful.
2) Trying to make Main Event less frequent also goes against rapid fire gameplay. Main Event is pretty much that the only time Trickster can rapid fire a survivor at mid range (or farther), when the survivor is micro-wiggling to dodge knives, because the expected accuracy rate will be too low to rapid fire without Main Event.
Rapid fire gameplay is fine if its not something that a kit is trying to force in every situation, but the changes do not allow as much freedom to learn angles and go for those more accurate shots that OP enjoys a lot.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618416#Comment_3618416
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/X92SDKQ43S1X/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/CYT1PI30GO6S/image.png
1) If you are going to make a montage of the best Trickster clips, then you should pick clips where the survivors are playing well. What is happening in the above two screenshots?
In the first screenshot, why on earth did the survivor decide to run up a flight of stairs, which placed them back in line of sight with the window? They could have turned right (instead of left to go up the stairs), where the giant line of sight breaker is, then run far away. It would have taken Trickster so long to get through that main building, that the survivor would have safely made it to the next tile, and the laceration meter would have run out too by the time Trickster caught up to the survivor.
In the second screenshot, why on earth did the survivor decide to run up a fight of stairs, where there is zero line of sight breakers? The survivor should have ran out of the building, so they could use the building as a line of sight breaker, to give them time to run to the next tile.
What is the point of montages where the survivors clearly don't know how to play against Trickster?
2) If you want to show us reasons why to play Trickster instead of Huntress, then we need clips where Trickster got hits, but Huntress couldn't have gotten a hit. For example, all of those clips where the survivor is out in the open long enough for Huntress to get a hatchet hit, aren't good arguments for "play Trickster instead of Huntress". Clips where the survivor is animation locked, and Huntress could have gotten an easy hatchet, aren't good arguments either.
And we need the entire clip, where we see all 8 or 16 knives, so we can judge whether or not Huntress could have gotten a hit in that entire timeframe. Clips that are just showing us the last 1 or 2 knife hits are meaningless, because we have no idea if Huntress could have gotten a hit while Trickster was landing the first 6 knives.
It honestly doesn't sound like you're even trying to discuss in good faith honestly, it feels like nothing that will be said will ever change your stance, so I'm not entirely sure why you're debating at all really. Those screenshots are unnecessarily nitpicky and detract entirely from the video evidence showing the power of 6 blades to take a health state, and you cannot argue against that because the vids are factually showing what happens.
The clips shown are imo fine. 8 blades to lacerate over 6 change those situations a lot because, by your own admission, their pathing was not the best, but 8 blades means they'd break LOS sooner which extends the chase a bit.
And, with a killer like trickster, every second matters due to the way his health states work and due to laceration being something that decays over time and does not stay, unlike any other ranged killer in the game.
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To anyone who still keeps making the claim that 8 knives to lacerate is fine and 6 is not, I have a question:
If this is true, why was 6 lacerate 15 decay stronger than 8 lacerate 10 decay (the answer isn't the decay time)?
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@Liozio said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618419#Comment_3618419
Your last point makes zero sense. I don't understand what you're trying to say there.
If he by your own admission is not meant to have anything anti rapid fire, then why does the combo mechanic exist, which btw rewards consecutive hits with main event duration extensions?
Trickster also is not rapid-fire only, you need a balance of rapid and non rapid fire, because the better survivors WILL punish your inaccuracy hard.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618383#Comment_3618383
Knives are definitely not "balanced out by more damage". When characters like Huntress have 1 projectile = 1 health state, Trickster having 8 (OR MORE!) projectiles = 1 health state, means his knives are low damage. And again, most projectile game have projectiles that are either hitscan, or massively faster than Trickster's knives, which means that perfect aiming is rewarded. DBD is not that game, because Trickster's knives are way too slow for that.
And rapid fire gameplay is the only reason to pick Trickster over Huntress. If I'm supposed to carefully aim every knife, and expected 100% accuracy, then I should just pick Huntress instead, whose projectiles have such a large hitbox that it's way easier to get 100% accuracy hits with them.
And I'm not saying Trickster should literally hold down the fire button non-stop. I'm just saying he shouldn't have anything that's ANTI RAPID FIRE, which is basically anything that rewards consecutive hits, or anything that punishes missed hits.
Your last point makes zero sense. I don't understand what you're trying to say there.
If he by your own admission is not meant to have anything anti rapid fire, then why does the combo mechanic exist, which btw rewards consecutive hits with main event duration extensions?
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@Liozio said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618419#Comment_3618419
Not comparable killers at all. Huntress takes health states on hit, trickster builds up his damage over time.
55 m/s is also not slow at all, its faster than a double flight speed huntress (which if my math is correct clocks in at 52 m/s for charged throws).
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618383#Comment_3618383
Knives are definitely not "balanced out by more damage". When characters like Huntress have 1 projectile = 1 health state, Trickster having 8 (OR MORE!) projectiles = 1 health state, means his knives are low damage. And again, most projectile game have projectiles that are either hitscan, or massively faster than Trickster's knives, which means that perfect aiming is rewarded. DBD is not that game, because Trickster's knives are way too slow for that.
And rapid fire gameplay is the only reason to pick Trickster over Huntress. If I'm supposed to carefully aim every knife, and expected 100% accuracy, then I should just pick Huntress instead, whose projectiles have such a large hitbox that it's way easier to get 100% accuracy hits with them.
And I'm not saying Trickster should literally hold down the fire button non-stop. I'm just saying he shouldn't have anything that's ANTI RAPID FIRE, which is basically anything that rewards consecutive hits, or anything that punishes missed hits.
Not comparable killers at all. Huntress takes health states on hit, trickster builds up his damage over time.
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@Liozio said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618482#Comment_3618482
In every single clip I've watched of new trickster, I have been able to pinpoint the exact moment 6 blades would lose a health state. I've watched survivors make it to an entirely new tile because of the 8 hit requirement.
It is not fair to compare old main event to new in this way due to the massive difference in frequency, especially since you had to hit 30/44 of your ammo count (almost 69% of your ammo give or take) for one main event rather than getting it in every single chase. The PTB for the rework proved this at its core was a terrible idea, but BHVR doubled down on it and reduced the requirement by two blades when the requirement should never have been so low in the first place.
The intention of Main Event was to make it a reward for extremely high accuracy, and now it just rewards you for the bare minimum. I can miss 36 knives in a row but as long as I just backrev you and hit 8, I get what is basically a free down despite missing literally 81.81% of my ammo capacity.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618320#Comment_3618320
you need 12 knives to down in old trickster from healthy to dying. in this one, you need to hit 8 knives to down from injury to dying[IF] you use main event correctly because main event allows you to spend 8 knives for other health-state. 8 is lower number then 12. This is not accounting that a lot of the time, survivor may eventually grouped for trickster to use ME to get mutiple health-states leading to way more ammo efficiency. your only worse if survivor is already injured.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618318#Comment_3618318
it is a nerf if all you do is only use regular throwing mode and nothing else. it is a buff if you use throwing mode to get to main event and you use main event at the correct time. you should explain what about main event is not good design. it is meant to be temporary power-up that makes him better then other ranged killers.
You're meant to have a balance of tap, burst and spraying, tapping when at tiles with LOS blockers but areas you can fire through, bursting at medium range and full auto spraying at point blank. BHVR's intention was to supposedly make him feel better to play, but the changes overall are objectively a nerf because 6 blades is WAY stronger than 8.
that is already the case. your tap-firing around loops that survivor hug corners on. your burst firing between gaps(3-4 knives between holes of the loop similar to slinger's harpoon gun) and your spray & praying out in the open.
In every single clip I've watched of new trickster, I have been able to pinpoint the exact moment 6 blades would lose a health state. I've watched survivors make it to an entirely new tile because of the 8 hit requirement.
It is not fair to compare old main event to new in this way due to the massive difference in frequency, especially since you had to hit 30/44 of your ammo count (almost 69% of your ammo give or take) for one main event rather than getting it in every single chase. The PTB for the rework proved this at its core was a terrible idea, but BHVR doubled down on it and reduced the requirement by two blades when the requirement should never have been so low in the first place.
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@Liozio said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618482#Comment_3618482
If you are forced to use main event for the downs and you are given main event in every single chase, my argument will STILL remain that its a bad change.
Survivors are given no audio or visual cue that main event is charged at all, and cannot use the information they do not have to counterplay it like going into a locker, breaking los etc etc.
It is extremely unfair and unrealistic to let him have main event constantly like this.
Your main event snowball is also objectively worse unless you take an addon (you were never forced to take an addon before to improve the snowball, you just had good snowball potential due to the much healthier and larger requirement), because your main event duration was halfed and you're forced to play around a combo mechanic that extends your ME, which is not even explained any where in game.
And since its based on knife hits, you are forced to spam more, which means more backrevving, which means you aren't taking risks and going for shots, because the laceration requirement is too high to comfortably allow that playstyle.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618320#Comment_3618320
you need 12 knives to down in old trickster from healthy to dying. in this one, you need to hit 8 knives to down from injury to dying[IF] you use main event correctly because main event allows you to spend 8 knives for other health-state. 8 is lower number then 12. This is not accounting that a lot of the time, survivor may eventually grouped for trickster to use ME to get mutiple health-states leading to way more ammo efficiency. your only worse if survivor is already injured.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618318#Comment_3618318
it is a nerf if all you do is only use regular throwing mode and nothing else. it is a buff if you use throwing mode to get to main event and you use main event at the correct time. you should explain what about main event is not good design. it is meant to be temporary power-up that makes him better then other ranged killers.
You're meant to have a balance of tap, burst and spraying, tapping when at tiles with LOS blockers but areas you can fire through, bursting at medium range and full auto spraying at point blank. BHVR's intention was to supposedly make him feel better to play, but the changes overall are objectively a nerf because 6 blades is WAY stronger than 8.
that is already the case. your tap-firing around loops that survivor hug corners on. your burst firing between gaps(3-4 knives between holes of the loop similar to slinger's harpoon gun) and your spray & praying out in the open.
If you are forced to use main event for the downs and you are given main event in every single chase, my argument will STILL remain that its a bad change.
Survivors are given no audio or visual cue that main event is charged at all, and cannot use the information they do not have to counterplay it like going into a locker, breaking los etc etc.
It is extremely unfair and unrealistic to let him have main event constantly like this.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618325#Comment_3618325
Have you ever played any other game that involves rapid fire weapons? Have you noticed they tend to give those weapons a huge ammo capacity, and the ammo boxes tend to have a huge number of bullets, because it's 100% expected that you shouldn't be having perfect accuracy when you are using rapid fire?
Trickster's knives have bad accuracy if he's not in close range, because the hitbox is so tiny, and the projectiles have a slow enough travel time that survivors can micro dodge some of the knives even if Trickster is aiming perfectly. This is because Trickster needs to actually predict where the survivor is, which is 100% impossible if the survivor is randomly micro dodging. This isn't a skill issue. It's literally a "Trickster's knives literally can't guarantee 100% accuracy if the survivor isn't in close range, even if the killer has infinite skill in the game".
Expecting Trickster to have 100% accuracy is expecting him to be using his knives at close range, at which point, why bother playing a ranged character? If Trickster is close enough to someone to guarantee 100% accuracy, they would be close enough for Wesker to just M2 them instead.
They tend to also give those weapons recoil which was removed entirely from this killer and which was a huge balancing component of them as well.
I'm not asking for someone to have 100% accuracy, that is of course an unrealistic ask and a point I agree with you on, and this is why my main event change involves a requirement of more charges overall but a loss in charges if you miss, which rewards survivors for better pathing and punishes the Trickster player if their accuracy just isn't good enough.
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@LordHeXaGoN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3615336#Comment_3615336
this realy wont work.
He needs a faster throw rate with the throw rate back 3 to 4 blades per sec and 8 staks of laceration. (Not in the midlle of that value)
It was almost perfect on ptb, but as always it was fixed. Cuz sombody dosent like perfect characters/
Cuz 3 blades per sec feels so dumb.
And its realy hard to down somebody with that, even if laceration will be 6 blades.
Main event can be like u wrote then.
If they will change him into 4 blades per sec.
To say it was also perfect on PTB is imo ignoring the survivor experience against trickster, because the main event being more often change is still an abject failure and will remain until there's a penalty for missing via charges lost.
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@LordHeXaGoN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3615336#Comment_3615336
this realy wont work.
He needs a faster throw rate with the throw rate back 3 to 4 blades per sec and 8 staks of laceration. (Not in the midlle of that value)
It was almost perfect on ptb, but as always it was fixed. Cuz sombody dosent like perfect characters/
Cuz 3 blades per sec feels so dumb.
And its realy hard to down somebody with that, even if laceration will be 6 blades.
Main event can be like u wrote then.
If they will change him into 4 blades per sec.
4 blades a second with 6 knives to lacerate would be absolutely HORRIBLE to play against, so having it 3 a second with 6 laceration is a better spot overall.
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@LordHeXaGoN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3615336#Comment_3615336
this realy wont work.
He needs a faster throw rate with the throw rate back 3 to 4 blades per sec and 8 staks of laceration. (Not in the midlle of that value)
It was almost perfect on ptb, but as always it was fixed. Cuz sombody dosent like perfect characters/
Cuz 3 blades per sec feels so dumb.
And its realy hard to down somebody with that, even if laceration will be 6 blades.
Main event can be like u wrote then.
If they will change him into 4 blades per sec.
8 knives to lacerate is still a nerf. My stance will never change on this.
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@Liozio said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3617440#Comment_3617440
It would reward accuracy. Why would it be a problem that missing is punished when main event overall would be still proccing more often (I maintain my stance it REALLY shouldn't) compared to pre 7.4.0?
And if people are struggling against teamed up survivors, that suggests they still have things to learn with Trickster no?
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@Coffeecrashing said:
These suggestions go against the entire point of Trickster's rework, which is to have rapid fire gameplay...
1) Having anything that rewards consecutive hits, goes against rapid fire gameplay. Expecting a 100% accuracy rate during rapid fire is so very unrealistic and awful.
2) Trying to make Main Event less frequent also goes against rapid fire gameplay. Main Event is pretty much that the only time Trickster can rapid fire a survivor at mid range (or farther), when the survivor is micro-wiggling to dodge knives, because the expected accuracy rate will be too low to rapid fire without Main Event.
If the entire point of the rework is rapid fire gameplay, how would rewarding consecutive hits be a bad thing? This point makes zero sense imo.
And reminder: Main Event throws less blades overall, so the rapid fire gameplay point / idea has effectively failed entirely.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3616012#Comment_3616012
With 6-Knife and ramp up you could consistently tap-fire in loops anywhere, and quickly mow people down whenever you got the upper hand. It was always the survivors fault if they went down too quickly.
but you can still do that. tap-firing has no relationship between throw-rate. If you tap-firing, your not gaining any throwing speed in old one or new one. this cement my point is that having faster throw-rate was meaningless at loops because your tap-firing.
now with current iteration, you can "hold" your fire-rate stacks in main event and then unleash a bigger bonus when you believe the time is right. in that sense, throwing-rate and how trickster power-up is clever change.
Difference being, main event has it's own (longer) windup, limited duration, a fatigue state when it ends, and can be countered by lockers easily.
The skill in playing trickster is knowing when to use main event. so yes, the ability has drawbacks and counters.
This post isn't about how trickster is weaker, he's far from it, it's about how trickster playstyle has devolved and degraded so much due to the changes that his kit is no longer fun to use.
his play-style is still same. only negative changes he received are those from PTB->Live. everything else is improved. the main one being that 6->8 throwing-rate change is mismatch to his base throwing speed which is 3.33(0.3). he only received 10% increase in base-throwing mode but the change from 6->8 is 33% reduction in his ability to injure. so overall, your base-throwing mode is -23% worse then previous iteration but like I said, the base-throwing mode is suppose to be used to power-up your true ability, main event.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3616010#Comment_3616010
I think knives play is overall same or similar. He has less impact per knife he hits but he is more spammy. That is kinda of his identity. He's suppose to be spammy. If your looking to play more precision flick-aim based killer that has less focus on track-aiming you should look into other two ranged namely huntress or deathslinger.
He's not meant to just spam everywhere, this is a huge misconception I keep seeing.
You're meant to have a balance of tap, burst and spraying, tapping when at tiles with LOS blockers but areas you can fire through, bursting at medium range and full auto spraying at point blank. BHVR's intention was to supposedly make him feel better to play, but the changes overall are objectively a nerf because 6 blades is WAY stronger than 8.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3616012#Comment_3616012
With 6-Knife and ramp up you could consistently tap-fire in loops anywhere, and quickly mow people down whenever you got the upper hand. It was always the survivors fault if they went down too quickly.
but you can still do that. tap-firing has no relationship between throw-rate. If you tap-firing, your not gaining any throwing speed in old one or new one. this cement my point is that having faster throw-rate was meaningless at loops because your tap-firing.
now with current iteration, you can "hold" your fire-rate stacks in main event and then unleash a bigger bonus when you believe the time is right. in that sense, throwing-rate and how trickster power-up is clever change.
Difference being, main event has it's own (longer) windup, limited duration, a fatigue state when it ends, and can be countered by lockers easily.
The skill in playing trickster is knowing when to use main event. so yes, the ability has drawbacks and counters.
This post isn't about how trickster is weaker, he's far from it, it's about how trickster playstyle has devolved and degraded so much due to the changes that his kit is no longer fun to use.
his play-style is still same. only negative changes he received are those from PTB->Live. everything else is improved. the main one being that 6->8 throwing-rate change is mismatch to his base throwing speed which is 3.33(0.3). he only received 10% increase in base-throwing mode but the change from 6->8 is 33% reduction in his ability to injure. so overall, your base-throwing mode is -23% worse then previous iteration but like I said, the base-throwing mode is suppose to be used to power-up your true ability, main event.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3616010#Comment_3616010
I think knives play is overall same or similar. He has less impact per knife he hits but he is more spammy. That is kinda of his identity. He's suppose to be spammy. If your looking to play more precision flick-aim based killer that has less focus on track-aiming you should look into other two ranged namely huntress or deathslinger.
But its not the same at all, he's punished way less for spamming than he used to be.
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@LordHeXaGoN said:
3d part about the main event is a real strange decision.
Cuz losing 2 blades after a miss for the main event is way too punishing. And main event should be reward, for players who struglle against team up surviviors.
I hope this change never get live, cuz this will make the main event garbage again, and developers, when was ptb, tried to get rid of that problem.
But 2 health states main event is fine.
It would reward accuracy. Why would it be a problem that missing is punished when main event overall would be still proccing more often (I maintain my stance it REALLY shouldn't) compared to pre 7.4.0?