Revvium
Revvium
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- Revvium
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@bnork said:
on the chorus of sin ptb every killer felt incredibly smooth and responsive to play, and killers heavily impacted by inconsistent ping(ghoul namely) were instantly fixed because of this change, everyone who noticed it voiced their excitement and praise for the change, and mandy herself was asked about the change was said "thats what we wanted to hear" and on the live patch released today it just didnt get released? why would that be? why would a change so universally praised not be shipped?
I would really like to see the responsiveness improvements restored, Survivor AND killer felt significantly more fun on ptb.
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Another thing worth noting: Krasue's TR is mixed to Stereo which causes a strange "seems directional" mindset in players where they will react to the TR and get very jarred by this quality.
Krasue's Terror radius seemingly was forgotten to be downmixed to mono after being produced, I hope to see this mistake get fixed as I and many others have gotten very thrown off by this aspect as the TR can jump in and out of one ear cup to the next and mask audio meant to be heard! -
Added this to add some utility to using regurgitate body form beyond the first hit:
Leech:
- Leeched I progression from Regurgitate: +100 charges → +50 charges
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With all the Adjustments to Leech and Headform being less of a persistent "You just die now" tool I've made the decision to cut back on the anti-tunnel measures as it gums up gameplay in a very inorganic and choice limiting functionality.
- Leech
- Hooked Survivors leech meter regresses to 50% of Leech 1 instead of removing Leech 1 entirely
This should improve the functionality of the Mushroom Economy as it stands and actually make decision making of when to cleanse a considerable choice instead of taking that agency out of the players hands. Keep in mind the broken status is being removed alongside these changes and thus i am less concerned about 3 hits from headform being a significant amplifier of tunneling pressure.
Thanks! - Leech
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Upon further feedback gathering:
- Transformations:
- Head Form → Body Form
- 1 sec (my numbers) → 1.4 sec
- 1 sec (my numbers) → 1.4 sec
- Head Form → Body Form
This change is meant to limit the concern of mimicking spirits short phasing playstyle while still allowing more access to body form when its suitable.
I will continue to add to this forum post as i ponder and gather feedback from peers and community members. - Transformations:
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I gathered feedback on this thought that would imply my nerf to headform transformation time may be a bit harsh in combination with my nerfs to headform headlong flight charges and not achieve a furthering of balance as much as it would further clunkiness. (the following changes reference not current live numbers but changes to my proposed numbers)
With this in mind i propose the following changes to my previous changes:- Transformations:
- Body Form → Head Form
- 2 sec → 1.4 sec
- Body Form → Head Form
The following changes i think may be worth exploring, but I'm very unsure as it may cause other issues or further the goal of fixing Krasue and so i suggest internally testing this as i think this may be key to making head form restricted toward "unlocking plays" through proper body form play and spreading of infections without the concern for overreliance on slugging:
- Head form
- Movement speed: 4.6 m/s → 4.4 m/s
- Headlong Flight
- Movement speed: 7 m/s (live number) → 8 m/s
- Charges: 8 → 10
- Ability to enter headlong flight after shifting into headform adjusted to be consistent with access to Intestinal Whip, which would increase seamlessness and quality of life.
- Transformations:
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Above all Dissolution and Blood Favor need to be scorched.
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Lower Recharge rate of headlong flight basekit from: .4 charges per second → .2 charges per second (increasing the dependency on needing multiple infects to achieve dangerous uptime of this ability since we're making the endlag on exiting it more seemless and responsive)
Hitting a generator/survivor with a Gland from body form should also have a larger area of effect, often times when hitting a generator with a gland the survivor can react super late to it and still avoid the gland which isn't very rewarding of skill.
Shredded Gown Rework:
-For each infected survivor reduce Body form Terror radius by 4 meters
-For each infected survivor increase Head form terror radius by 4 meters
Chicken head Rework:
-Each time a survivor cleanses a leech effect your next headform transformation is .2 seconds faster (this property doesn't work when cleansing survivors using a hook)
-Stacks up to 5 times
-Stacks are spent upon transform
Rotten Swine Adjustment:
-Break speed is now 30% faster instead of 15%
Crumpled Sheet music adjustment:
-gain 8 charges to headlong flight when a survivor is hit by a leeching gland -
-Remove Broken status from Leech 2
-Leech 1 now Increases the recharge rate of headlong flight by 12.5% per survivor
-Leech 2 now increases the recharge rate of headlong flight by 25% per survivor
-Headlong flight maximum charges reduced to 8 instead of 12
These changes would help deal with the dominance of chicken head krasue while still allowing the addon to have some form of purpose without requiring slugging to make the addon have merit. -
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3827558#Comment_3827558
please his read @Coffeecrashing full and complete in detail. i'll highlight the key detail.
That’s why the hitbox is so small, it’s why the travel speed is so slow when considering the hitbox size, and why he throws knives from two different locations. This is also specifically done so that the knives are a battle of attrition, where the survivors are trying to dodge as many knives as possible, and try to time out the laceration meter.
The summary of what he is talking about is that in order for trickster to be about pure accuracy, his projecitle speed has to be hit scan but once you put Hitscan on a killer, the survivor is no longer about dodging because you can't dodge hitscan. it is about killer aiming. If we say that survivor should be allowed to dodge knives than this conversely means the opposite for killer. the killer be allowed to MISS knives.
Like Coffeecrashing states, it is not about dodging the killer entirely, it is about war of attrition of dodging and timing out the killer chase. In other words, your not suppose empty his knives count to 0. your suppose DELAY the chase as much as possible from going down. This logic is also same for huntress. Like part of reason why huntress has 7 hatchets is not for you to dodge all 7 hatchets. it is designed for you to DELAY the down as much as possible. your not realistically suppose to dodge all 7 hatchets or all 44 knives. your meant to win war of attrition between downs and map pressure and gens.
Part of reason why his laceration meter is 15 seconds is because he is NOT GOOD even when you have NO LACERATION meter decay. So adding a mechanic that hurts you as killer when you aren't strong enough without said drawback means that drawback shouldn't be effective. So unless they omega buff trickster where decaying knives is warranted as drawback. there isn't any counter-play to decaying his knives in most instances because of his current time efficiency being poor without it. The killer has to have massive upside for killer to have a downside.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3824490#Comment_3824490
First, it is difficult to use blank stats for trickster because killers like trickster tend to be specialized killers where average player does poorly with the killer compare to the player that specializes in the killer. The other aspect to talk about is that trickster did not receive blanket buffs. he receives buffs in some areas and nerf in other area's. as a result, his kill-rate did not overall improve. it stayed the same. pick-rate, he has very defined play-style you either resonate with or do not resonate with. More players prefer the 1 hit = 1 health-state play-style over the war of attrition gameplay that trickster promotes. in my opinion, i think survivor misunderstand his gameplay and as a result, trickster struggles to get straight positive buffs without getting sizable negative changes in the process. It is like 2 steps forward, 1 step back with him.
You cannot dodge Trickster knives.
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I've posted much more complicated changes i'd make on reddit though, I don't like taking up space in a place where it wasn't asked in specific. There's many different ways that this character can be tuned (hell we've seen like 4 or 5 different incarnations of him already that all played very differently) but we'll only get it right if we conversate in good faith.
@Revvium said:
A lot of my issues with 110 get solved by simply making him 115 in main event window (to position main events at the effectiveness of current Trickster) and adding some sort of distance multiplier on damage of knives.
112.5 can work and would probably be fine, distance around loops isn't really easy to gauge from survivor perspective anyway since he can lift and set down his knives within a .5 second window effectively changing tile length anyway in a more fluid way than any other killer. They could look at knife lifting speed, or knife set down speed instead potentially. I do very much think that old Trickster was significantly more interesting from both sides, I played against one of the better Trickster's on my server yesterday and memento at 4.6 feels unstoppable with even the slightest lack of team coordination.This character used to have interesting macro against it, now if the Trickster is good the game just consists of edge-mapping him on repeat, which is so boring its unbelievable (in the off-chance you even see one, they're basically extinct at this point) but some people are still holding onto all of their tools that requires very little time investment regardless of having only like 3 addons to pick from that are viable…
Main Event can lead to some instant 4 on the floor scenarios with certain addon combos and overall the skill needs to be re-injected into the kit, I'll hold my breath and hope that it comes, until then we wait!P.S. its really cool to hop into a Trickster thread i'm tagged in and can guarantee someone is here talking smack about me when i've only tried to be a good ambassador for the Trickster community in good faith argument, would appreciate it if we did better at respecting other people.
-Revvium 😘
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A lot of my issues with 110 get solved by simply making him 115 in main event window (to position main events at the effectiveness of current Trickster) and adding some sort of distance multiplier on damage of knives.
112.5 can work and would probably be fine, distance around loops isn't really easy to gauge from survivor perspective anyway since he can lift and set down his knives within a .5 second window effectively changing tile length anyway in a more fluid way than any other killer. They could look at knife lifting speed, or knife set down speed instead potentially. I do very much think that old Trickster was significantly more interesting from both sides, I played against one of the better Trickster's on my server yesterday and memento at 4.6 feels unstoppable with even the slightest lack of team coordination.This character used to have interesting macro against it, now if the Trickster is good the game just consists of edge-mapping him on repeat, which is so boring its unbelievable (in the off-chance you even see one, they're basically extinct at this point) but some people are still holding onto all of their tools that requires very little time investment regardless of having only like 3 addons to pick from that are viable…
Main Event can lead to some instant 4 on the floor scenarios with certain addon combos and overall the skill needs to be re-injected into the kit, I'll hold my breath and hope that it comes, until then we wait!P.S. its really cool to hop into a Trickster thread i'm tagged in and can guarantee someone is here talking smack about me when i've only tried to be a good ambassador for the Trickster community in good faith argument, would appreciate it if we did better at respecting other people.
-Revvium 😘
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3823298#Comment_3823298
That entire idea doesn't work, because 100% accuracy with Trickster's knives isn't a skill based task, because that's not how his power works. Trickster's knives have a very small hitbox, and their travel speed is so slow, that even if BHVR programmed an aimbot that aimed every knife perfectly, Trickster still wouldn't get 100% accuracy against a survivor that knows how to dodge the knives, if the survivor isn't in close range.
Trickster isn't even supposed to try for 100% accuracy if the survivor farther than close range, and instead is supposed to repeatedly turn his camera left/right, to throw the knives in a small spread, similar to what Plague does with her puke when the survivors aren't close to her….. And that is a good comparison. Asking for 100% accuracy with Trickster, would be like asking for 100% accuracy with Plague's puke. Even with infinite skill, it's not a realistic goal.
Also, because of the recent Reddit Trickster feedback post, we now have proof that there never was a Trickster consensus, and that way more people think he's more fun to play as, when he's 4.6.
My pitch doesn't require 100% accuracy btw or anywhere near it.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3824158#Comment_3824158
Tricksters knives are purposely designed for rapid fire gameplay. That’s why the hitbox is so small, it’s why the travel speed is so slow when considering the hitbox size, and why he throws knives from two different locations. This is also specifically done so that the knives are a battle of attrition, where the survivors are trying to dodge as many knives as possible, and try to time out the laceration meter.
Trickster’s knives are unreliable at mid range, even if the player has infinite skill in the game. Trickster’s knives would need to be redesigned if players are expected to have a higher accuracy requirement than current Trickster.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/ICTJP6R31828/image.jpeg
Also, we were given the above stats earlier this year, and Trickster’s pick rate was fine. The whole argument that “Trickster is unpopular to play as because people don’t like his rework”, is completely false. In fact, his pick rate went up with the rework, because he was easier to learn and use.
Every time I played pre-rework Trickster, I would think “Huntress would have gotten a hit there”, and “Huntress could have hit the survivor there”, and “Huntress could have gotten a hit there too”. Because when you have two killers that are supposed to carefully aim projectiles that work similarly.. and one of these killers has a projectile that only needs to hit once, has a much bigger hitbox, and is way more reliable to hit with, then what is the point of playing the weaker character? There wasn’t a point of playing pre-rework Trickster, and there wouldn’t be a point in playing any new version of Trickster that requires carefully aimed shots, because people would literally just be better off playing Huntress instead because she does that better.
Idk why you say the travel speed is slow when its the fastest projectiles in the entire game. Considering the hitbox size doesn't really mean much since we're quantifying application of counterplay and gameplay and 55 m/s isn't dodgeable if the Trickster is good at aiming. Long range shots are the only equitable shots to Huntress or slinger's close range dodgeability since the point at which human reactivity can realistically read for these movements is double the distance of a noncharged hatchet and 20% further than a fully charged hatchet + Deathslinger harpoon.
This killer cannot and should not be balanced around dodging, which was the premise that the November rework lead with as the shots that Trickster throws are on him to miss, and not on the survivors to dodge.
Deathslinger:- Harpoon fires at a speed of 40 m/s
Huntress:
- Releasing at minimum charge throws them at 25 m/s.
- Releasing at maximum charge throws them at 40 m/s.
Unknown:
- Maximum Projectile Speed: 50 m/s
Trickster:
- Blades are launched at a speed of 55 m/s.
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"Upon a re-read (just because simple = more likely to be implemented) one thing I might suggest looking at again is the duration of Main Event for the lower tiers. I realise this rework is about rewarding Trickster for high skill expression, but a 2 second Main Event for D is quite low... maybe a base of 4 and a 0.5s build up? (D:4, C:4.5, B:5, A:5.5, S:6)"
- The base duration in this version is 6 and the combo's add on second increments, I want a serviceable baseline with room for growth with the character for the higher skill groups
"When it comes to your combo system (which I still really like), are we taking your best unbroken combo streak that you managed throughout building up your Main Event? The combo bonus I believe is then applied when get Main Event gets fully stacked up, and you then get the bonus for 20s (or until you activate Main Event)?"
- Yes, the bonus however on this version lasts as you're building it up so that you aren't rushed to hit your shots as much as you are encouraged to maintain being accurate over outright aggression. once you miss enough to "end" the combo it locks in and maintains your current rank. Only allowing the bonuses to act upon Trickster for the 20 second window is a good idea though that would be a good pullback if this proves to be too much!
"Your extra bonuses to the combo meter are cool, but I might suggest simplifying this to just the chain, as these bonuses make Tricksters combo meter reliant on map rng, and overcomplicates the balance of this mechanic."
- I believe that action speed solves a lot of 4.4 Trickster's issues where he would get permanently stuck on a tile, for example shack could leave you feeling helpless against a very competent survivor due to laceration meter burning. Action speed serves to allow you to create mindgames at windows and pallets to ensure some sort of "out" that doesn't just revolve around dropping chase on these survivors. Giving action speed and haste alleviates a lot of map dependency issues, but the big thing is that Trickster's competency on a lot of tiles doesn't have a finesse to it. If the player has no incentive to be patient then the player will never do it which leads to the desire to raw buff the kit until he just kills at his hardest tiles whilst still continuing to make his strongest tiles ever stronger. I want an "out" to these tough tiles and the combo system here allows for that to exist without overloading his stronger points.
"I would thus change it so that each laceration decay drops your current combo chain by 1 tier (not the locked in one), then you now have an interesting mechanic that rewards you for pulling off those tricky shots just to maintain the combo. You also have a nice built in counterplay mechanic for camping hooks, since there are 2 survivors, an unhooking/unhooked survivor can block to spread the knives between each other, and now have something to interrupt your combo build up if they survive long enough."
- I think that some sort of "Combo decay" system could prove fruitful if the need did arise but we're sitting on a system that doesn't guarantee you down anybody and instead makes the downs "easier" if you choose to play in a way that's more slow paced, I also believe that because this system requires you to be accurate with your power, the requirement to be patient with your aim is something that already acts as a limiter of sorts. The capstone tiers are meant to be carrots to chase for the people who purposely lower their lethality by slowing everything down intentionally. The more accurate you're required to be with this character, the more you will naturally slow down your throw rate - which creates a playstyle that is more patient and needs power to offset that intentional reduction of raw rush down lethality.
The primary goal I had with this rework was to give the rapid fire Trickster's some options while also giving options to the Tricksters that want to carrot chase their accuracy instead, while providing option to dip between these styles when necessary, the more rapid fire and outright lethality you exhibit is the less you lean into this system - which innately balances it because you have to show restraint in order to keep up your combo score. If you made it for instance so that the rapid fire style of play always got the highest combo then that in turn removes the entire incentive to add the higher combo levels, hopefully that translates well!
-Revvium 😘
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@UndeddJester said:
It seems that in every rework suggestion I've seen from the Trickster community, the focus always seems to be on rewarding Trickster for knife accuracy instead of spam... and I think this is something BHVR should consider, even if they don't use this rework specifically, it's a direction they might want to consider heading rowards as the core design philosophy of Trickster.
This rework mostly reverts Trickster to his 4.4m/s state (with some number tweaks)... but the real highlight is the combo system that rewards accurate knives building up to your next Main Event.
I like this direction, and I really like the idea of his music ramping up as he builds his combo system.
Losing 1 laceration every 10 seconds though seems a little weird to me... that is so long for the laceration to decay.… or have I misunderstood something?
I have some of these numbers a tad too high, but this is a theme focused rework. I would love to see something like this rework proposition get tested and narrowed down to good numbers, maybe 6 seconds per laceration decay, but I like the concept of each segment decaying on a timer that begins once the last one faded. the "keep up the pressure" concept is quite fun for its versatility and different situations it can create for gameplay variance.
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Injecting counter-play is important for the survivor experience in a way that doesn't degrade the feeling of Trickster, giving Trickster more move-speed than he already had only makes the .2 second windup of his knives even more agonizing to fight. You cannot simply remove lethality in place of higher speed with a ranged killer - in the case of Trickster it has significantly reduced his capability to deal damage at range against mispositioned survivors. The current Trickster is much better at:
- Tunneling
- Slugging
- Camping
These are all unfun aspects, and have been amplified in frustration quality due to a few systems being diminished:
- Survivor distance acquisition
- Ammo system (Main Event save an absurd amount of ammo)
- Ability to swap tiles against Trickster if he messes up (he just aims the laser pointer main event at your escape angles)
- Survivor ability to determine where Trickster can be (Lullaby's layered accompaniment with the TR is irrelevant now due to 32m TR)
Trickster was much stronger at 4.4m/s without having to utilize these tactics, which put a damper on his enjoyment levels on the survivor side, but there isn't any acknowledgement that 1 health state Main Event makes these situations far far more aggravating to fight as Trickster can create a Main Event out of thin air whenever you decide to go for these altruistic plays in his presence. Previously you could take the opportunity when he went to reload or try to get the unhooked survivor to a safer area while pressuring gens, now Trickster can kill both the unhooking survivor and the unhooked survivor without losing a single knife of ammunition and the acquisition speed no longer has a window of opportunity. Main Event is cannibalizing counter-play and playing without it is not an option (no tap-firing is not still alive, you HAVE to Main Event or you lose the game because the ammo system wasn't build around not utilizing it)
I don't get the impression these points are landing though, 4.4m/s 6 knife Trickster with 30 knife main event was simply better at all of the things that the rework was attempting to achieve and gave playstyle choice variety that rewarded proper zoning, counter-play, and had built in anti-tunnel in the form of the 4.4 m/s move-speed. Addon diversity was incredible and the base-kit was really solid without addons.
-Rev 😘
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782835#Comment_3782835
his only real nerf is 8 →6 laceration. His original 4.4 m/s version was 8 lacerations. So at least comparing his first PTB iteration to this version, he is much better. Given his better fire-rate, He probably doesn't need to go from 8→6. Probably just going from 8→7 would be sufficient. At the same time, i don't think he mandatory needs it but it would be nice QOL change. My original alternative suggestion was just adding back his Melodious murder add-on to decrease max laceration from 8→7. His base m/s is fine change for what it was trying achieve.
Just minor bug fixes and maybe single QOL change is all that is needed.
We've seen 6 knife Trickster, as previously stated was NOT an issue and classified as high C low B tier by most of the community, ramping is a QoL feeling fix, 6 knife allows for tapfiring playstyles to exist. As i've previously stated, Yumi's murder was in the game previously, you're suggesting Trickster have another equivalent of Map of the Realm instead of fixing the core issue plaguing his addons balance (the high laceration meter) Memento blades is also an addon that is mandatory, and I don't like how many options keep feeling like they only benefit the spam playstyle when its clearly the most supported style already.
He doesn't need regular mode AND Main Event to both be rapid fire, and asking for more rapid fire only puts the Trickster players that are crying out for solutions more into their grave. Skill expression needs to make a return, otherwise this character is always going to be garbage in high level play as making it good without any limiters would result in modern day Skull Merchant levels of non-interactive looping.Just to clarify again, we have tried an addon like Yumi's Murder and Memento Blades, the design becomes opting in to winning. You should never have to opt in to raw power efficiency that makes you stronger across the board, its just a lazy way of designing addons like:
- Map of the Realm
- Mother Daughter Ring
- Barbs Glasses
- J. Myers Memorial
- Windstorm
All of these addons are straight up efficiency increasing and to some degree all of these addons were rolled into base-kit of the characters or likely will be eventually if they haven't been yet, why would we ever turn back the clock on mandatory addon design being reduced just to get a design that worked before? I'm perplexed as to what limiting player choice does for the games health or player enjoyment.
P.S. comparing current Trickster to OG 3 years ago Trickster is a curveball that I don't understand what its relevance is, yeah its better than the unplayable existence of OG Trickster which was fully inaccurate and was this Trickster but worse, so?
-Rev 😘
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@Predated said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782588#Comment_3782588
I can think of 1 thing I would change about Artist. IMO she has S-tier potential that is really hard to obtain because of stacking cooldowns. But I definitely feel like throwing 3 birds shouldnt be punished more in cooldowns than a Nurse blinking 3 times. Just do a flat cooldown per bird and she would be amazing to play as
I'd probably reward her with cooldown reduction for hitting birds or something of the sort, usually it feels like a massive waste of time to use 2 or 3 birds because the cooldown timing of them guarantees you will not injure with a followup.
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@TripleStryke said:
THWACK! just isn't worth running. If you want to run a perk that achieves basically the same thing, that can be used without a hook, and isn't "wasted" during chase, just run Ultimate Weapon. I propose a fairly simple and in theme additional effect that would make this perk see more use.
THWACK!: In addition to the existing effects, while active, increases the speed you perform the next pallet or breakable wall break action by 50%.
This obviously would not work on m2 breaks, which would function as it currently does, but if you choose to break with the standard break action this could be very useful.
I think this would be super exciting and feel like a sizeable reward for hooking, THWACK!'s current effect is so lackluster and ill-fitting of the reward structure of what a hook-based perk should net you. Plus action speed increases are not that crazy at high %'s as for a bunch of tiles you can still find safety after the killer goes for the break. Singularity is a great example of a killer that doesn't get too unruly with a high action speed modifier, and its all multiplicative so the more action speed % modifiers the worse they stack up! Great recommendation overall.
-Rev 😘
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I definitely think some elements have been dulled due to pulling away from a potential "augmented reality" appearance.
Take this skin concept art for example, the concept art sells a very creepy under hat shading style that would look great in DBD, however due to the "stick to the realism" I imagine this sort of thing was not put into the in-game version. I am a big fan of dramatic lighting, cartoonish visuals (if it's tasteful) because its timeless. LoL art style is a great example of cartoon realism that is way more cartoonish than i'd want DBD to appear as - but at least with the original characters I think elements like this skin would benefit a lot from "tasteful inclusion" of unrealistic elements. It's at the end of the day a personal preference though! but there's something about the old character art styles and cosmetics that carries a certain charm.
-Rev 😘
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Btw i've also spoken with all of the top 10 playtime Tricksters on steam records, ALL OF THEM agree that this version of Trickster is more boring than his previous incarnation. That means this rework was a mistake, there was a big tear away from Trickster's roots here and its also saddening to exist in a community where I have to see long time friends struggling whom I met from playing Trickster and building a community that enjoys him and lives for his aesthetic and mechanical prowess.
He's just not Trickster anymore, what a shame…-Rev 😘
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I just want his nerfs addressed, Main Event is so boring and it is sledgehammered into the kit and feels like there's no risk and reward was heavily hampered to make way for it. Ramping was essential to the immersive experience, 24m made the 40m lullaby (with unique function to actually tell you how close you were to the terror radius) actually immersive against Trickster and because main event is so prevalent it doesn't feel like an ultimate ability.
His performative flare and immersive voicelines are annihilated, all so that people who didn't want to try to learn the killer could get 80% of the reward for 0% of the effort. By the way all of the Trickster's who have invested hundreds and thousands of hours have expressed frustration that their killer whom the community deemed mid B to high C tier got nerfed in the elements that actually had application at high level play, and so that Trickster could further stomp players at the lower end who he already had no issues destroying!
I'm on board with recoil going away or being an optional feature for people who enjoyed the immersive qualities that it held, but ranged killers should not also run at m1 killer movement speed, especially not at the cost of aesthetic, the long-term health of the character, and the survivor's enjoyment. I've gone on about this for 9+ months and its painful that Trickster as I knew him is just not a character anymore. Glad the people who played him casually can 4k people who aren't exhibiting proper counter-play, but this rework was a complete betrayal of the performative ranged Huntress equivalent that I fell in love with.
Losing playstyle options for an already extremely limited sniper character selection (Huntress, Unknown, Slinger) is a shame and it's no wonder why so many people play Huntress, she's always been the penultimate best ranged killer and they did well at amplifying her ranged elements instead of neutering them in place of "not using your power on most tiles"-Rev 😘
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782817#Comment_3782817
they removed his penalty build-up thing which i don't really understand why he had that. i remember when he was first released in the ptb, his throwing m/s was like 66% movement speed → 33% the more you threw. i still remember playing trickster in the ptb with this. my play-time on that ptb with trickster has never made me feel so weak as a killer. when he was released, he was my worst-win rate killer. i think i was winning 4/10 matches and this was before MMR existed.
that was really something. after that like few weeks, they buffed his throwing m/s to 96-92% from that awful 66%-33%, made his main event have 0.5 second wind-up instead of 3 seconds, increase his main event timer to 30 second from like 10 seconds and they made his wind-up shorter… i believe it 0.65 or 0.75 to 0.5 seconds. i think he also had 10 second of laceration in his original version. either way, that was an interesting killer experience.
he had 20 seconds of laceration! and also didn't fire accurately!
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3781364#Comment_3781364
yeah they didn't buff his throwing movement speed. they just buffed his m/s. he's fine where he is at. he could be little better like 7 knives to injure as many trickster feel that 8 knives is a bit too much but at this rate, i am just wanting them to fix his animation for memento blades. nothing else. bug fixes shouldn't be taking 1 year…..
They actually did buff his movement speed while throwing!
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@MrMori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3691141#Comment_3691141
Completely agree. Wouldn't mind a crosshair too honestly, I chose to not play with it since many good Trickter players don't use it, but I mean it would be comfy, not gonna lie. And remove his lullaby already too.
I don't even mind 8 blades to down and 8 blades for main event, though survivors find it unfun to play against, which I get. Literally all they need to do is make Memento Blades full basekit, fix the animation, remove his lullaby and, if they want to for bonus points, add a crosshair option ingame and Trickster would feel so much better to play.
Removing even more nuance from Trickster's design will not help anything, Bring back all of the old features because they were pertinent to his immersion and existence! I never see Tricksters in my lobbies anymore. I've seen two since his rework because he's just horrible at high mmr now.
-Rev 😘
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@Revvium said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/423971/trickster
As someone with over 2000 hrs in Trickster I agree, 4.6 just isn't working out. Not just that but 8 knives to hit Main Event and 8 knives to injure also feels terrible! The cat and mouse of this character feels destroyed and I can't deny the fact that he was so much more fun to play as and against before. The ammo system is destroyed, his lullaby doesn't work correctly, his wink is bugged, his arms desync, his voice lines are bugged, his addon variety is absolutely annihilated. Hopefully something gets done about it soon, I love Trickster and want to see him return to his former glory. This current iteration feels like a bad breakup, its genuinely so saddening.
-Rev 😘
Even if they really wanted him to be 4.6, I think Knife ramp-up needs to come back, Main Event needs to be less frequently acquired, he needs 6 knives to injure again and his terror radius needs to be reduced again. Trickster's lullaby already serves as a great radar for where he is in the Trial, and it adjusts based on how close you are to his terror radius, this portion of the lullaby just doesn't work right now because his terror radius is 32m and the visual lullaby appears at 38!
Not to mention the combo system is a disaster at the moment, his old voice lines that were combo based on throws don't function properly, his lobby wink is fully bugged and has been forever now, ugh its just so miserable.
-Rev 😘 -
@Gorik said:
He needs to be 4.4 like the other ranged killers.
As someone with over 2000 hrs in Trickster I agree, 4.6 just isn't working out. Not just that but 8 knives to hit Main Event and 8 knives to injure also feels terrible! The cat and mouse of this character feels destroyed and I can't deny the fact that he was so much more fun to play as and against before. The ammo system is destroyed, his lullaby doesn't work correctly, his wink is bugged, his arms desync, his voice lines are bugged, his addon variety is absolutely annihilated. Hopefully something gets done about it soon, I love Trickster and want to see him return to his former glory. This current iteration feels like a bad breakup, its genuinely so saddening.
-Rev 😘
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782352#Comment_3782352
I get it - They still haven't given Sadako her buff that was scheduled back in January. Its been bugged ever since.
Its at the point where I don't really know to be quiet or keep going on about it, I think more care could be taken with reworks to make sure the aesthetic quality, audio design, addon variety, and gameplay enjoyment is kept intact because 9 months is far too long for a rework like this to remain unfixed. We lost so much, I just miss 4.4 Trickster, I miss ramp-up, I miss his huffs when he threw knives, I miss his lobby wink! Its very saddening.
-Rev 😘
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@Gorik said:
Should, Windows be given a cool down again. Nothing crazy, maybe like 10 seconds, which is very reasonable I believe, and still aids new players.
But it does stop it being used constantly due to the fact that it is overall a strong perk with no cooldown, but also not to nerfed like the old 30 second cooldown.
It's fine as it is, there will always be some perks that are used for their appeal over their power level. It also keeps blindness effects relevant which is a big plus! Take self-care for example, even though most of the community deems this perk as something that isn't really good it's still ran very often. I think realistically if changes were to come to windows of opportunity I would recommend a range reduction instead of a cooldown, that way if you wanted to achieve maximum effectiveness you would have to run Open Handed to reap its full rewards.
-Rev 😘
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@Ricardo170373 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3691141#Comment_3691141
9 months and BHVR still silent about Trickster. What the reason behind feedbacks?
Yeah its a sad sight to see Trickster in the state he's in for so long.
-Rev 😘
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I'm hoping Trickster finds his way on this roadmap soon, very excited to see what the future has in store for him. He just doesn't feel the same after his rework back in December. Very excited however to see changes to a bunch of perks here, but a bit nervous to see characters like Cenobite, Plague, Unknown, and Hillbilly receiving changes this early with how Trickster feels, but remaining patient as I understand there's a lot to get around to!
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Gorbo goes into great detail of what Trickster's current issues are and further dissection of the things we lost from the rework.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKeT0sf4lAE -
@StarstruckFrog said:
You asked me to post this here, so here's my updated feedback for Trickster. Hoping to see something in the coming months.
Thank you for posting this here, even if I happen to disagree on some points I think its important that BHVR sees all of our feedback with highest ease of access. Very appreciated.
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@EQWashu said:
Stepping in with a reminder to please keep comments civil & respectful toward others, and their opinions on the topic. Thank you.
Thank you, my apologies.
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Most of the people I interact with are infuriated by the current state have less than 300 hrs in the game.
For them Trickster is not accessible, my post seeks to alleviate that. Adding more KPS does nothing to alleviate these problems and has left the killer in a stale, bland state. I do not exclusively speak from my perspective, I speak with the voice of many and have put in the effort to gather feedback. You have only sought to shoot my post down when my only intent is to gather feedback, to which you have only reiterated things the character has existed as in the past, Original Trickster is your fantasy of a "Rapid fire shots missed don't matter" Trickster, That version needed extensive changes because it turns out when your misses don't matter neither does the satisfaction from actually hitting your shots. -
I'd also love them to try a mechanic that curved out the edge cases of Main Event, so that Trickster's performance didn't fall flat mid-match by outright obliterating all survivors before things got interesting in a proxy scenario. I had something like this in mind-
Inattentive Audience-- When a Survivor is on the hook, Main Event cannot be activated
- Main Event is operates as normal when someone is not on the hook
This would allow for them to pump more value into Main Event and add excitement toward both sides without fear of the "oh no Main Event cancelled the unhook animation and everyone exploded in 2 seconds" moments that other characters have the identity of- like Bubba. It would also allow for Survivors to have some sort of game-plan against The Trickster if they choose it due to the global notification of Main Event being available.
I also think my initial pitch of 60 knives was a bit much, so I think looking further into it I would lower the knife count of this version and tune down an addon using an offset to incentivize a more patient playstyle modification.Ammo-
- 44 Ammo Capacity
- Ammo addons unchanged (Addons need to be balanced against eachother, so i think 16 and 10 are fine when compared to the other options <3)
Addons-
- Iridescent Photocard
- Photocard reworked to buff the combo meter system by 50% (all haste + action speed including passive) (1.5x haste bonus +action speed and main event duration bonuses)
- NEW EFFECT - Movement Speed while in the Throw state Reduced by 10%
- Photocard reworked to buff the combo meter system by 50% (all haste + action speed including passive) (1.5x haste bonus +action speed and main event duration bonuses)
This should further incentivize a "Tap shoot style" that maintains its encouragement to make a lot of use of the combo system, however remaining in throw state and waiting too long to take your shots should be discouraged as that could be frustrating from either side.
I'll come back with any future edits to this post as I'm still contemplating applications, but I really like how this post is shaking out and the potentiality of this kind of design being further encouraged! -
I've genuinely heard sentiment and have had discussion with a number of these top playtime Trickster's and we genuinely miss the 6 knife 4.4 version. That version should be the baseline that modern Trickster should be built on, It was genuinely hard to get some of the feedback from these players because some of them don't speak a language we share in common (the top player "Geugjigo" speaks Korean, Ayano speaks Russian for example) but i've done my best to amass community sentiment without trying to interject my personal opinion. A lot of these players have posted #RevertTrickster on social media, namely Littlerugaard, Wacek134, and myself off the top of my head, Geugjigo has expressed sentiment that he's confused why the killer has gone in a 4.6 m/s direction instead of doubling down on Trickster's unique aspects.
The general jist i want to clarify is the vast majority of Trickster players want him back to his 6 knife shell at the very least, and to add improvements on top of that, it's been 4 months since i've gathered this sentiment but honestly it seems a lot of that has gone unnoticed by the community in favor of public facing people who do not play Trickster all that often.
Since the changes a number of previous Trickster players refuse to touch him until he gets put back or "fixed" and a few people including one of my good friends Brandon (Previously WorstDwight who used to post amazing clips on tiktok and Twitter showcasing Trickster) has quit The Trickster due to his playstyle being eradicated and has seemingly had his feedback ignored despite being the most public facing Trickster enthusiast, which is very disheartening for the future of the character if one of the most popular among us had their feedback ignored.
In conclusion I just want to ask that BHVR keeps an ear to the community of people who play their characters when digesting reworks and ask those players what would make the character more interesting and accessible, you did fantastic on the Billy rework and I have nothing but praise for it, but I wish the same due diligence was given for The Trickster. -
@BritneyMitch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3692150#Comment_3692150
After thinking about this for a week or two I have two thoughts. My first is there should be some kind of reward if you make trickster miss. If the number of knives he needed to land was lowered, but also the number of knives he had was massively lowered it would make it more enjoyable. Playing into huntress is fun because you are rewarded for skillful plays. Make her miss 5-7 hatchets (which lets be real should never be happening unless she is actually getting out played) get rewarded with extra distance during the reload animation. The idea that trickster just has a pretty much unlimited number of knives in chase with no downtime is a pretty terrible feeling. There should be times when the killer feels strong in chase and when the survivor has the advantage. Most killers in the game follow this loop. The easiest examples to see are oni and plague. When oni has power its pretty much a free down and theres very little counter play, which feels frustrating, but its balanced by the fact that really 3 generators should be completed before handing out that first hit. Trickster is just strongish all of the time. There's never really a time during Tricksters chase where you have agency as survivor to express looping ability. My second is just the entire concept of main event. The current iteration of main event is just…terrible…
I agree on pretty much all points you've given, Main Event as it stands is far too noninteractive from both Trickster's side as well as Survivor's side and that's a big reason why I find its quite unfun to try to make use of. I like it being a big "oh crap" moment on the survivors perspective, but if you get that moment every chase… well that surprise scare is lessened by a mile. On Trickster's end it is no longer a "Main Event" because you get it back every 4 seconds with no feeling of being rewarded for consistently good performance, all of the changes i've made seek to alleviate these frustrations.
I used to love playing against Trickster, he's thrilling, he makes you play on your toes, he makes you run for your life without regard for what's happening on the map at any given point. After the rework I miss playing against the old version because he felt satisfying to intelligently avoid before, I felt the old version delivered such a fun experience and had more counters in chase! its clear to me now that the old version needed EXTRA added onto it to help it out instead of just making his chase something he HAS TO WIN or he just fizzles out.
In addition to this if I show up in an area nowadays and I can't find them it's often good riddance for the hopes of having agency in the match. All of the agency of this killer resides exclusively in your current chase, and even within that area the Agency feels like 8 knives then instantly press "Ctrl" which has also left by pinky in shambles. I miss ramping up into Trickster laughing hysterically, I miss his personality, I miss being not bugged and having Trickster wink within the lobby screen.We lost so much soul in this character, and to that extent it pains me so much to see him in this state with radio silence for what will be done about it (if anything at all). All of my peers share the same sentiment but we're lost without a shepherd. From the bottom of the Trickster community's heart we all just want to ask with deepest sincerity. The very least that can be done is #RevertTrickster , I've seen some of my best friends in the community quit because they no longer have a character to come back to.
Still hoping for the best, Revvium -
@Revvium said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3697403#Comment_3697403
The game already has all of the combo's i've listed. This is a current mechanic in the game it is just under elaborated.
And so i went to the liberty of describing how the current combo mechanic works, and made it more accessible because as it stands its REALLY HARD to utilize which makes it feel like it's an afterthought, but it achieves too little and his main event addons achieve TOO MUCH. Thus i wanted all players to be able to experience the system, it sounds complicated on paper, but after adding sound compliments and visuals it should be far more easy to access- similar to how guitar hero or rock band incentivize you with the "Groove" and "on fire" mechanics.
In addition, we already have a score event tied to "Long range hits" so the seed is there to put extra damage on top of it, we also have precedent despite your reservations relating to Huntress. Deathslingers "Iridescent Coin" is a range-based application effect. We have the foundation already for this to be given to Trickster. -
@TickTackBoooom said:
I have 5,2k hours in this game and I had to read through the combo thing like 3 times to understand it. I dont think this is a good sign.
I think there are just too many different combos. The idea of rewarding the trickster for multiple knives in a row is great, dont get me wrong but the S, A, B, etc thing is too much
Imo there should be one combo thing that adds effect(s) and thats it.
The range multiplier is also great, doubt it will ever happen tho. They werent even able to change Irisdescent head to activate after a certain travel distance for some weird reason
The game already has all of the combo's i've listed. This is a current mechanic in the game it is just under elaborated.
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I'll take a look at it, thanks. Ultimately I don't really care if they admit the faults on the matter in any degree, but I'm not gonna act like this version was any more interesting nor satisfying than 6 knife 4.4 was.
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@cvpenguin5 said:
The Trickster rework single handedly ruined my enjoyment of this game. He was my favorite character pre-rework. All he needed was some QOL adjustments and small buffs to make him better to play and instead they gutted him. I firmly believe that anyone that still plays him is doing so solely out of emotional attachment, because there is no other reason to play this Killer over Huntress anymore from a gameplay standpoint. He accomplishes absolutely nothing.
There is no point in using his power instead of going for an M1, ever. The only time you use it is when you're close enough for an M1 anyway, just so you can proc Main Event which is a boring, skilless ability that guarantees a bunch of health states for free. Absolutely meaningless. The only reason anyone would use his power is because they're willing to put themselves at a disadvantage in order to experience the aesthetic of the character they loved, which is sad and depressing.
All BHVR did was take away any of the enjoyment his players got from playing him, while alleviating none of the frustration Survivors have playing against him. It was bad enough being insulted and hated by salty Survivor players just for wanting to play my favorite Killer, but now that still happens but I can't even enjoy playing him anymore either. It actually makes me feel bad. I've been trying so hard ever since his rework to dedicate myself to learning how to have fun with him still, but it just isn't happening. I just can't even enjoy this game anymore, despite trying so hard to. Don't know why the devs refuse to be communicative about these things. They're content to just let their playerbase fester in misery for months and years on end.
But hey, he got some new cosmetics right? Guess that's all that matters.
I could not have stated my frustration any better than this, I've felt like they killed his identity and I continue playing him because he's part of me with the HOPE that one day they come back to him and set him back to the state where he feels himself again. at the moment he feels without a soul, and the most depressing thing is being invalidated in this respect by people telling me he's "Fine" I DONT WANT FINE I want the version that gives me enjoyment, not just the thing that nets me the highest 4k streak without time investment or agency from the other side.
Thank you for speaking your mind on this, I could not agree more. -
I'm also being informed that ramp up reached full slowdown after 30 consecutive throws? I would want that to ramp up after around 15 knives, allowing for more impact, but way less movement speed. I find that the current version of Trickster is too hard to lose in chase, but his power level was also adjusted to be less satisfying as a result.
Again similar to the satisfaction of getting hits with Huntress, and PTB testing of "Raised hatchet throwing speed" being precedent for why high movement speed on a ranged killer can feel very bad for BOTH parties, not just the survivor.
The slowdown should also be synchronized with the movespeed reduction on a flat scale, the higher throwrate- the lower movement speed. -
@StarstruckFrog said:
Heya :) Glad to see ya also makin a post about a potential Trickster update. I know you expected me to not like it, but I actually have some interesting thoughts on this since you're balancing for a 4.4m/s Trickster.
I'ma try not to be as wordy as I normally am on here.(oops)With the Basekit, I like the combination of 4.4m/s, 5x Meter, and the slowed movement speed while throwing. I think all that combined would make 4.4m/s Trickster feel pretty fair and have a solid foundation. However I don't really know what you mean by 3-4 Ramping Throw Rate.
Where I start to get iffy is the 60 Blades basekit being brought back. Call me a snob, but I really don't like the idea of increasing Trickster's ammo. Personally I got to the point where (before the rework) I was barely reloading anyway, and increasing his ammo kind of decreases the skill requirement for the power in a way I don't really like (semi-encouraging spam)
I'm also not really sure about making haste and action speed bonuses basekit (similar to Hux,) I personally think in the long run this just kind of complicates the kit in a way that I don't think is crazy interesting. Like very few people are gonna be able to tell the difference between normal action speeds vs a 10% faster version, and those who do would probably prefer to just have that basekit. I mentioned it in your stream but I'm at the point of vouching for killers to just do basic actions at different speeds depending on how good their power is for chases specifically.
I won't go into that here tho…. I kinda just think running bamboozle is fine for now. Maybe someday it'll be addressed.
Also, this is a really specific thing, but currently your stats around main event aren't really feasible with how the code for the killer works. Currently Main Event's pocket duration (how long u can hold it before using it) is only set to be 3x the duration of main event. Since main event is 6 seconds that means you can only hold onto it for 18 seconds. I don't think a 20s pocket duration is possible unless you made the duration 5 seconds and made the pocket duration 4x instead of 3x. Similarly add-ons that add to the timer probably won't work additively the way u think.
Speaking of add-ons though, I actually like Watch and Wires a lot. The haste addons seem really useless to me. I'm unsure about how the combo effects of the purple addons work and find them slightly unnecessary (you know im biased against ricochet but I wont bring that to the discussion here since im aware its just a me-thing.) Again I don't like tricksters ammo being increased by a lot so im iffy about the ammo addons. Throw Rate addons are a W. I find it funny that your version of memento blades is the exact opposite of mine. Idk why photocard needed a rework :<
I'll probably shoot u a message later and we can talk more in-depth but thats about all i got to say for now. Love ya homie
The combo fire up meter I imagine would lead to an eventual climactic main event and then start over at 0, something to give the fantasy of Trickster doing a grand performance and allowing him to place main events in optimal positions - allowing him to be proactive instead of purely waiting around for people to mess up.
I appreciate the feedback here, I agree with most of what you said but if his base-kit were to have less ammo than 60 - i'd love to still see boa be 16 and trick pouch be 10, it just felt like the addons had purpose besides "sometimes you maybe get an extra health state" and "oh sometimes you maybe get half an injure per reload" there's a lot of underpowering of ammo addons because the design had less ammo, but that really shouldn't speak to how much the addons are weighted against each other Trick pouch at 4 and Boa at 8 will always be less valuable than the more notable Trickster addons and no amount of fiddling can fix that, I like the value of his purples and Photocard, it would be a shame to see them bring addon power down just for the sake of convenience.
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@Revvium said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3692150#Comment_3692150
I also wanted to push his movement speed while raising knives EVEN LOWER than the 6 knife 4.4 version, I love the "punish window" that Huntress has when she misses her Hatchet because the Survivors can use this opportunity to find better cover but it also comes with Huntress having better instantaneous damage than Trickster, I personally feel we've lost the entire sight of this mold and Trickster doesn't feel like he mimics this extremely enjoyable gameplay loop at all anymore.
The current version is so disappointing but bringing him back to a fun ranged experience takes work, I've made a ton of changes to the base-kit that shouldn't be overlooked, movement speed is very touchy on Trickster so you cannot simply nerf the "raised knife" movement speed by .8 meters per second at highest ramp without a notable tradeoff, a tradeoff that I think would pay off in gameplay enjoyment significantly on the Trickster's end (because he feels rewarded for being accurate at mid ranges as well as close) and on the Survivors end because if you force the Trickster to miss or make a good read, you are rewarded with distance and feel you can get away if you make the clutch play.
I think the notable nerfs I made to the movement speed basekit, both when raising knives and when not are very important to the philosophy of my pitch, I don't just want Trickster to be easier. I want him to feel better through some adjusted power in various areas.
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@Revvium said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3692144#Comment_3692144
The great thing to note is that I nerfed his movement speed by a lot to make way for these changes, instead making his performance required in order to get the modern day movement speed!
I agree that modern day Trickster feels agonizing to play against, he has this issue where he has PTB Huntress movement speed where he can sit on your back for around 3 loops around shack. I am seeking to solve this "No point to do anything in chase" style, because I find it bogs down his enjoyment factor on both sides.
- The Trickster feels forced to rush down one target and kill them as fast as possible because there's no lasting pressure from knives
- The Survivor feels they explode and cannot meaningfully get anything from forcing the Trickster to miss
- The Trickster feels that they never get to take ranged shots because they're always on the survivors back, but the knives had to be nerfed drastically to make way for this leading to a less-enjoyable experience and not for any notable FUN tradeoff on either side
I sought to fix the first issue by adding more value to the decay system and felt the previous movement speed allowed for a good dose of "Zone control" akin to Huntress but still with less considerable range so you don't feel AS threatened from them aiming at you, adjustments added to make space in bridging this gap so that he's not just a "worse Huntress" as he's been notated as a lot in the past.
The second issue I wanted to solve was Survivors feel like they instantly detonate and cannot have a fun or engaging time in chase, I think the frequency of Main Event and movement speed gave way to this frustration from both sides- thus I sought to nerf it and roll some of that into the base-kit (yet another nerf i'm adding that is not small to make way for better 4 v 1 pressure).
The third issue was that I felt Trickster never lost distance in general, and this leads to him feeling less ranged and makes him confusing to fight as well, if you're always at threat of the M1 well now you don't just have an issue where he can only target one person down at a time with very little counterplay, you also have to factor so many things into your chase; main event, m1, basekit knives, etc. This feeling sucks, and Trickster never feels like a ranged killer due to this addition with the 4.6 m/s rework, i seek to solve this bad feeling of him feeling "Melee".
I also wanted to push his movement speed while raising knives EVEN LOWER than the 6 knife 4.4 version, I love the "punish window" that Huntress has when she misses her Hatchet because the Survivors can use this opportunity to find better cover but it also comes with Huntress having better instantaneous damage than Trickster, I personally feel we've lost the entire sight of this mold and Trickster doesn't feel like he mimics this extremely enjoyable gameplay loop at all anymore.
The current version is so disappointing but bringing him back to a fun ranged experience takes work, I've made a ton of changes to the base-kit that shouldn't be overlooked, movement speed is very touchy on Trickster so you cannot simply nerf the "raised knife" movement speed by .8 meters per second at highest ramp without a notable tradeoff, a tradeoff that I think would pay off in gameplay enjoyment significantly on the Trickster's end (because he feels rewarded for being accurate at mid ranges as well as close) and on the Survivors end because if you force the Trickster to miss or make a good read, you are rewarded with distance and feel you can get away if you make the clutch play. -
@BritneyMitch said:
I just wish they would add some kind of meaningful counterplay to trickster. It's so boring playing against a killer that just spams knives at you and regardless of skill level they will down you eventually. Like yeah, he isnt strong because of how long it takes, but there's nothing a survivor can realistically do in chase besides w to the other side of the map where gens arent being progressed. The current iteration of trickster is an instadodge every time for me. I never dc vs any other killer for any reason. I just cant be bothered to play into trickster. I am not entirely convinced he needs these buffs.
The great thing to note is that I nerfed his movement speed by a lot to make way for these changes, instead making his performance required in order to get the modern day movement speed!
I agree that modern day Trickster feels agonizing to play against, he has this issue where he has PTB Huntress movement speed where he can sit on your back for around 3 loops around shack. I am seeking to solve this "No point to do anything in chase" style, because I find it bogs down his enjoyment factor on both sides.
- The Trickster feels forced to rush down one target and kill them as fast as possible because there's no lasting pressure from knives
- The Survivor feels they explode and cannot meaningfully get anything from forcing the Trickster to miss
- The Trickster feels that they never get to take ranged shots because they're always on the survivors back, but the knives had to be nerfed drastically to make way for this leading to a less-enjoyable experience and not for any notable FUN tradeoff on either side
I sought to fix the first issue by adding more value to the decay system and felt the previous movement speed allowed for a good dose of "Zone control" akin to Huntress but still with less considerable range so you don't feel AS threatened from them aiming at you, adjustments added to make space in bridging this gap so that he's not just a "worse Huntress" as he's been notated as a lot in the past.
The second issue I wanted to solve was Survivors feel like they instantly detonate and cannot have a fun or engaging time in chase, I think the frequency of Main Event and movement speed gave way to this frustration from both sides- thus I sought to nerf it and roll some of that into the base-kit (yet another nerf i'm adding that is not small to make way for better 4 v 1 pressure).
The third issue was that I felt Trickster never lost distance in general, and this leads to him feeling less ranged and makes him confusing to fight as well, if you're always at threat of the M1 well now you don't just have an issue where he can only target one person down at a time with very little counterplay, you also have to factor so many things into your chase; main event, m1, basekit knives, etc. This feeling sucks, and Trickster never feels like a ranged killer due to this addition with the 4.6 m/s rework, i seek to solve this bad feeling of him feeling "Melee".
