Revvium
Revvium
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@Devil_hit11 said:
this is way too complicated. a more simple fix is
Melodious Murder: Decreases the survivors laceration capacity by -1.
Now you can use Melodious Murder to have 7 knives which is close to 6 knives for old trickster. They have still yet to fixed memento blade animations. throwing animation has been bugged with this add-on. they have yet to fix it.
I think trickster is fine. I play a lot. he's my favourite ranged killer. His memento blades having a bugged animation is my main grip on him. I think other complaint that Wackey has about new trickster is that you cannot punish animation locks. If you had Melodious Murder+Memento blades(without animation bugs), this could be play-style for trickster that revolves around using two add-on for animation locks. Other than relying on main event for animation locks to punish animation locks, he plays fine.
This change unfortunately does not address any concerns both me and Wacek (who agrees with my assessment) have with the current Trickster, and makes him more addon dependent. There was a version of Trickster back in the day that had Yumi's murder (Melodious Murder as it's called today) as a -1 to laceration meter addon, this addon was awful and required for the same reasons modern day memento blades is.
Core-kit problems need Core-kit solutions, Melodious murder going back to a previous version that they already found an issue with in the past (because it was mandatory for good feeling gameplay and allowed for little addon diversity) does not feel good and doesn't attempt to solve an over dependence on Bamboozle for window vaults which every long playtime Trickster feels forced to run against players who are skilled at combating Trickster.
Wacek is my peer, I always try to involve him, Endzej, Gorbo, Brandon (Worstdwight) and the other Trickster mains in my takes when given the chance. We've always wanted base-kit solutions to Tricksters dependency on a select few playstyles. My post seeks to alleviate those concerns without making Trickster overwhelming in chase and also give a swath of addons that can now be played with because they do not largely fiddle with the base-kit without sizeable downside if high impact.
Thanks for commenting on the post and giving your thoughts - Revvium <3 -
Looking back at this I think the action speed passive I gave the combo system could be doubled, 4% action speed seems pretty low so i'd probably just keep the haste the same on that and double the action speed bonuses. Besides that my rereads of my own writeup I spent all night on I feel are pretty spot on what I think. My logic on the action speed bonuses and haste is because of 2 impasses i came to when playing Trickster:
- He heavily relies on Bamboozle to access a lot of tiles with his power, most Tricksters without bamboozle will lose outright if they try to approach these tiles due to his current ( and I believe solveable) lack of map pressure besides his 1v1
- He feels like he needs some punishable ability but on the flipside something for the survivors to play around while also not cutting his ranged pressure down to ignoreable status outside of being his primary target
I believe the Action speed and haste bonuses accentuate the old 4.4 shell to give a well rounded experience that feels like a "tide of danger" experience, which I LOVED about old Trickster so much. While also not requiring basekit knives to be nerfed to make way for flat high movement speed. Trickster should be able to cause fear with his presence to multiple survivors, and not just the one in his sights. While also not feeling like he has to constantly be anxious in order to down people at extremely fast speeds.
I believe the listed collection of features provides a more well-rounded experience of ranged killer that gives people that knife-only playstyle while also allowing room for people to amp themselves into a temporary 4.8 m/s m1 if they are really looking for that, but the depth that the combo system provides I believe could make Trickster truly captivating from both the Trickster's perspective AND the Survivors perspective. -
A lot of addon variety on this killer! I have a few opinions of the less useful ones:
- Slashed Backpack: Giving up an entire clone to reposition it is a massive waste of time, it seems this addon would be really cool if its goal was to get "satchel charge hits" as any hit you could get with a clone is postured away from instinctively or you could've gotten anyway through clever use of game mechanics. I would rework this or increase the explosion size by double when hitting it as it gives a LoS warning of its existence and a large cost spent in being your mobility.
- Punctured Eyeball: This addon could do its current effect if you're Injured and Weakened but it can also injure people who cleanse while weakened in addition to its other effects, this addon miswell just be called interlocking razers because its equal levels of "throw the game to get value" as that addon is. Unfortunately people hesitate and fear cleansing when they're injured, so giving this a higher reward for ditching people with Weakened could help a bit.
- Slashed Backpack: Giving up an entire clone to reposition it is a massive waste of time, it seems this addon would be really cool if its goal was to get "satchel charge hits" as any hit you could get with a clone is postured away from instinctively or you could've gotten anyway through clever use of game mechanics. I would rework this or increase the explosion size by double when hitting it as it gives a LoS warning of its existence and a large cost spent in being your mobility.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3633010#Comment_3633010
I'd much rather have the current Trickster's sounds, than previous Trickster's sounds. I absolutely hate hate hate when killers have loud noises, that make it difficult to hear survivor noises, and previous Trickster was all that.
It's bad enough we have to suffer through purposely loud chase music, and purposely bad sound occlusion. I don't want to hear killers make unnecessary noises, that might make it more difficult to hear other nearby survivors that might be running around with flashlights or flashbangs. Or if survivors break line of sight while a knife is in the air, I don't want Trickster (or his knives) to make unnecessary noises that might make it more difficult to hear where the survivor is going after they break line of sight.
If I have to choose between "killer immersion" and "being able to hear survivors that aren't in line of sight", then I'm absolutely choosing "being able to hear survivors that aren't in line of sight".
Tricksters sound design was probably the best sound design that this game has ever had, trying to entice sound design bugs to remain (while unintentional) for the sake of winning? It's fine if you don't want to be immersed in this game but trying to say that Trickster saying 2 syllable phrases is "hurting your chances of finding a survivor" feels contrarian and along the lines of a hypercompetitive-only-wants-to-win-mentality. You will not always win games, so ripping the guts out of the game just kills the overall atmosphere and enjoyment.
Respectfully I'm a fan of my killers having sound depth, personality and artistic design. I don't remember ever losing a survivor because I got a voiceline while stunned, reloading, or having someone wiggle off my shoulder. and I play this game a lot and watch a ton of VODS of this character in competitive settings.
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I thought I would also take a second to break down VISUALLY exactly what I find as a missed opportunity with Laceration meter decay and what gives so much negative feedback on a system that could be elaborated on without TOO MUCH WORK.
Video of my visual description: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2050469846
BHVR please consider that this meter could be changed without any unwanted balance problems on the side of Trickster or the survivors, QOL is the name of the game with the figuring out of what can be done. I want to do my best to elaborate on how to play against Trickster without removing the guts of this character.
The big problem that this would solve is the misunderstanding of "Dodging knives" as opposed to breaking "line of sight" I acknowledge that Killers aren't going to be super known about in all cases but I believe a utilization of visuals that shows survivors when they are doing the correct thing more clearly would give a better "evergreen" experience for people who might not understand how EXACTLY the knives work.
This is accompanied by a bugfix to the laceration screen effect on survivors end, but also has design implications talking about WHEN Tricksters meter goes down, as well as how long it takes to reach 0 after the decay begins. Thanks!
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Here's a video I made giving a breakdown of the power and optimal play against it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGk2CeYIKeM&t
With a lot of topics as complex as DBD counter-play I just like to clarify every point before making assumptions because the issue you're having could be soloq teammates, personal understanding of the power, or a heap of other variables of which I cannot grasp from a forum post, hope any of my comments helps and I'd be happy to provide more information, I play this killer nearly every day and obsess over the nuance, so please ask questions!
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@Revvium said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3640136#Comment_3640136
Ultimately if two or three people on the team don't pre-run or find strong tiles somewhere in their chase (which I'd quantify as disrespecting Tricksters chase) then the team will likely accidentally group up creating a snowball, not understand his range of threat which was his previous defining charactaristic but now as he moves much faster that threat area moves across the map more frequently.
Huntress downs you WAY FASTER than trickster and has much stronger snowball pressure. Huntress is simply stronger in most circumstances but you know more clearly if you're in huntress danger zone because her terror radius within her lullaby is much smaller.
Pre-running against Trickster and in fact any ranged killer is simply mandatory and I'm lost as to what to tell people besides playing against optimal survivors as this killer makes shack and main buildings feel like they're unbeatable without bamboozle, and killer should never imo be forced to never chase some tiles. Massive oversight because it feels bad to play, and bad to play against across all levels of play.
To add to this, Huntress doesn't have this same issue on Main Building and Shack as Trickster does, the reason being is because her value is guaranteed once landed- it cannot be snuffed out - You get the hatchet hit and you gained your value.
Meanwhile Trickster has to spend much longer in getting his value to come to fruition, often resulting in gameplay against good survivors requiring perfect play or they will burn your laceration meter out on strong loops alike these two I mentioned. Keep in mind this killer isn't like Legion, Dredge, Deathslinger, or any other killer because the power has 0 utility, its damage or nothing and the only feasible way that they make a design like this feel rewarding and impactful is if it's effective in the only value it can provide: dealing damage.
The only real comparison to be made on it is Huntress, and his range + spread pressure is supremely neutered comparatively, sad to say.
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@Revvium said:
This killers 1v4 is trash, he can stick to one survivor but ultimately there's a bunch of research I've done into this killer and my results varied based on the survivor teams confidence in understanding which tiles were good against him.
Against teams knowledgeable Against him and understand how to spread and respect the power, he gets 3 chases and then the game is no longer in his favor so he's forced to create a snowball or lose.
I hate his current design because it forced you to 1v1 every survivor and is impossible to create any spread pressure or do damage at range, his knives are way weaker mathematically before and his only saving grace is that you don't lose distance in chase anymore. Lose lose from both sides in terms of fun and optimal play from survivors leads to trickster being forced to abandon his power and use his m1.
Ultimately if two or three people on the team don't pre-run or find strong tiles somewhere in their chase (which I'd quantify as disrespecting Tricksters chase) then the team will likely accidentally group up creating a snowball, not understand his range of threat which was his previous defining charactaristic but now as he moves much faster that threat area moves across the map more frequently.
Huntress downs you WAY FASTER than trickster and has much stronger snowball pressure. Huntress is simply stronger in most circumstances but you know more clearly if you're in huntress danger zone because her terror radius within her lullaby is much smaller.
Pre-running against Trickster and in fact any ranged killer is simply mandatory and I'm lost as to what to tell people besides playing against optimal survivors as this killer makes shack and main buildings feel like they're unbeatable without bamboozle, and killer should never imo be forced to never chase some tiles. Massive oversight because it feels bad to play, and bad to play against across all levels of play.
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This killers 1v4 is trash, he can stick to one survivor but ultimately there's a bunch of research I've done into this killer and my results varied based on the survivor teams confidence in understanding which tiles were good against him.
Against teams knowledgeable against him and understood how to spread and respect the power, he gets 3 chases and then the game is no longer in his favor so he's forced to create a snowball or lose.
I hate his current design because it forces you to 1v1 every survivor and is impossible to create any spread pressure or do damage at range, his knives are way weaker mathematically than any previous version and his only saving grace is that you don't lose distance in chase anymore barring exhaustion perks. Lose lose from both sides in terms of fun and optimal play from survivors leads to trickster being forced to abandon his power and use his m1, which should never be ideal given that people pick up the killer in order to master the knives.
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Thank you for compiling this knives! I'd love to see these sound effects be reorganized and animations synced back up. Let's hope!
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@Revvium said:
If he got a fully remodeling skin that was a reimagining of him if the roles were reversed and she was instead the killer manager would be PREMIUM. I would buy this skin so fast you have no idea.
So would everyone in my community, I can see her running down survivors with her corpo-killer style and having a hell of a time doing it with a full voice over swap.
Alternatively, something like a Patrick Bateman collab would be great too, fits tricksters corpo killer aesthetic and body type well and could definitely be interesting to hear the voice lines from american psycho in the game! he also has a melee weapon that fits pretty well in the fire axe.
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Scampering without slice and dice feels way too strong compare to slice and dice scamper. I'd prefer default scamper be super weak and slice + dice scamper be faster to make hits with the rush + noise notif more plausible. I found it very hard to get slice and dice hits if I scampered during them. also the scamper cancel is really fun and interesting, would be cool to see something like that be available for basekit.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3629623#Comment_3629623
Main event is how Trickster is supposed to pressure survivors at range. Against survivors that know how to micro dodge knives, main event is the only practical way to do this because it doesn’t use up ammo.
Popping main event at range is a death sentence barring very very restricted cirumstances, you lock yourself to 3.86 m/s with a required 3 second buffer if you want to stop it for any reason. I'm referring to his default pressure and the fact of the matter is needing main event to actually pressure 20-24 meters with no guaranteed injure is overtly restrictive and prevents them from allowing 4.6 to have strong knives.
Needing to unlock your ranged ability prevents this killer from pressuring multiple survivors, thus people can just do gens near chase so long as they have a strong tile nearby and the Trickster is required to stop pressure on chase in order to swap. Previously popping a survivor with a few knives was enough to threaten an injure state, not so much anymore as even with 2 knives hit on a survivor you're unlikely to grab a health state if they have cover. Then you're left with a decision, let survivors do gens near you and attempt to create a snowball (of which you are not the best killer to be creating due to main events time efficiency being poor in terms of math) or let people do gens in your face because the target swap is an inherent timeloss as-is.
Meanwhile any other ranged variant killer snaps a shot up at a high gen, for example dead dog main gen, and gets an injure off of it with very meager time investment. Trickster needs to run all the way up and then he's in one of his weakest tiles in the entire game, in my opinion that means he isn't able to pressure ranged because the sunk cost of main event usage is overtly punishing if it doesn't kill.
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@Revvium said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3629120#Comment_3629120
I agree with pretty much all of this, in addition Trickster feels like he's simply lost his identity as a ranged killer. His overall sound design seems to have been lost to time and eradicated with bugs. Ramping i believe had a soundfile attached to it that gave the huffing sounds associated with the ramp up.
Its not very clear what the goal is in 1v1 from survivor besides focusing on either one of the options, but eventually the opposite side will always kill you in the end. 4.6 feels less interesting for a variety of reasons but mostly it just feels like he's lost his overall character identity for the sake of forcing his kit onto a wider audience that I don't believe ever wanted to play the killer in the first place.
I'm a ranged killer enthusiast, and Trickster no longer feels ranged.
This isn't even just frustration from the survivors perspective btw, if you want to choose the "correct option" as Trickster, whether that be m1 or m2, you first have to go through a 10 page checklist to determine if the knives lose value, if they do then you have to m1 or concede that you're playing inoptimal because you like the knives.
I love using the knives, and having to force myself to give up on them should never be where we are on the design. If a survivor runs a shack or main building tile at peak play then you cannot use your power and that's such a bad feeling. It gives you the feeling of that survivor having taken your power from you.
Not just that but if you accidentally make the wrong choice, you have either lost a main event or you have lost distance. There's zero incentivization for being really good at knives if you can just bait people to focus on adjusting for knives and then forcing an m1. This is the core of why the addons now feel lackluster. The base-kit relies on m1 or optimal main event usage, which creates a "samey" gameplay loop which deteriorates any hard work that people had previously put into making the base power good based on love for the kit.
Main event happens too much, the non main-event knives feel weaker than m1 and the killer never ever can be lost in chase barring a stealth perk. Enabling a tunneling machine of a killer with no soul left to speak of. I have thousands of hours in Trickster and I play this killer 10+ hrs a day and have whenever I am not taking a break. This design came at a time where I felt really hyped to come back to DBD and I've been trying desperately to like this version as much as the old version - I cannot enjoy this version nearly as much as I enjoyed 6 knife or even 4.4 8 knife trickster. This is for a variety of reasons, but ultimately the knives have lost their oomph. I no longer feel like the knives have any heft to them and that makes them feel meaningless to throw.
I wish I had the energy to keep ranting about how much I dislike not being able to pressure people at range anymore but I'm just tired and I've been posting on the forums almost every day in hopes that we get changes that bring him back in line with what we were originally given a few years ago. I'm losing hope on any changes coming, and I may have to just shelve Trickster - It's devastating.
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@tjt85 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3628953#Comment_3628953
My issue with rework Trickster is that he gets the main event so incredibly quickly and often, it feels like it's more or less what he's all about now. And since he's so fast, he can easily close the gap around loops enough to get an injury with his knives and then he's more or less straight into main event. If you stay at the loop, he'll either smack you with his bat and you're dead, or you leave the loop and get shredded by main event anyway. He can get some really fast downs. Old Trickster could do the same, but at least you felt like you had a chance to gain some distance around corners with his slower speed and the fact that his knives took time to ramp up to full speed. It's entirely possible I'm just hopeless at versing this Killer (I've never had much chance against this Killer), but judging by my teammates, they're not much better either.
All that said, I think they probably did need to buff his main event in some way. It felt kinda useless. I would get main event maybe once or twice in a trial and never when I actually wanted it. But this feels like a little too much to me.
Old Trickster's increasing knife speed is one thing I especially miss about him. I really liked how his blades would gradually pick up throwing speed as he sounded more and more excited. It was such a great combination of sound design and game play and it enhanced the experience of playing him. Now they're a steady speed and it feels kinda... bad? I don't know, I can't really articulate what my problem is. I just feel like he's lost something in this re-work and I can't fully explain what it is.
I'm not knowledgeable about this Killer or good with numbers and I was never very good with him (had plenty of 0-2K games). He's just one that I would occasionally play because he had a fun power and I like his vibe, look, lore and sound design. So I don't know how to fix him or buff him in a way that is fun for both sides. I just know that I don't find him fun to verse or play as anymore.
I think I would have been happy with old Trickster's throwing knives (minus the recoil), a slightly easier to activate main event and a 4.6 movement speed. Whether that's too strong or too weak a change, I don't know.
I agree with pretty much all of this, in addition Trickster feels like he's simply lost his identity as a ranged killer. His overall sound design seems to have been lost to time and eradicated with bugs. Ramping i believe had a soundfile attached to it that gave the huffing sounds associated with the ramp up.
Its not very clear what the goal is in 1v1 from survivor besides focusing on either one of the options, but eventually the opposite side will always kill you in the end. 4.6 feels less interesting for a variety of reasons but mostly it just feels like he's lost his overall character identity for the sake of forcing his kit onto a wider audience that I don't believe ever wanted to play the killer in the first place.
I'm a ranged killer enthusiast, and Trickster no longer feels ranged.
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@Revvium said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3628733#Comment_3628733
The knives got nerfed by a large degree compared to 6 knife Trickster so idk how you could come to this conclusion, his time to kill and accuracy needed to keep up pressure has been decreased. Old Trickster killed dramatically faster if you got caught out in the open. The only thing that is very dramatically increased is his movement speed, which I'd agree is not a fun addition to the kit on either side.
But the solution is not to nerf the blades, the solution is to reduce his ability to keep up back to the old version and make the power feel better to use by making it stronger whilst adding back more dependency on ammo by making main event take longer to acquire. There's plenty of counterplay against the killer- but it does require key insights that aren't always very clear unless you have good understanding of the power. again another issue that the kit has.
Another interesting insight i've noticed is people I play against have no idea how many blades it takes to get main event, and it requires them to pay attention to laceration # applied in order to reliably keep track of the killers power spikes. I've been told multiple times that it seemed i have "infinite ammo" and that i think comes from a major misunderstanding of how main event works from a survivor perspective.
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@tjt85 said:
Well, I Just played against my first Trickster since the rework. If his blades are to stay the way they are, then he needs to be nerfed to 4.4 again. I feel like it was a big mistake to buff both his speed and his knives.
Old Trickster didn't have much counter play to begin with, but now he has absolutely none.
I used to play the odd Trickster Killer game, but now I'll never be playing him again. He's just so utterly miserable to face. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets more DCs than The Skull Merchant now.
The knives got nerfed by a large degree compared to 6 knife Trickster so idk how you could come to this conclusion, his time to kill and accuracy needed to keep up pressure has been increased. Old Trickster killed dramatically faster if you got caught out in the open. The only thing that is very dramatically increased is his movement speed, which I'd agree is not a fun addition to the kit on either side.
This version of Trickster is very good at tunneling/sticking onto a survivor forever, there's no escape if he knows where you are.
But the solution is not to nerf the blades, the solution is to reduce his ability to keep up back to the old version and make the power feel better to use by making it stronger whilst adding back more dependency on ammo by making main event take longer to acquire. There's plenty of counterplay against the killer- but it does require key insights that aren't always very clear unless you have good understanding of the power. again another issue that the kit has.
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Knowing that 2 months ago 12 of these addons felt good and now they dont feels awful, i would love to actually feel like the addons have a purpose. The only addons I feel powerful with aren't even on this page and on this page I only feel like 3 addons have improved in use.
These addons are:
- Waiting for you watch
- Lucky Blade
- Iridescent Photocard
The addons that still continue to have value despite the changes on this page:
- Trick Blades <3
- Caged Heart Shoes
All of the rest of the addons have become useless due to being outshone completely by addons that solve the base-kits issues, or are just boring and don't have purpose. His best addons aren't even here, they're on the second page and give boring bumps to raw value. Raw value of which should be baked into basekit in some way. but honestly I hate the over-reliance on M1 in every conceivable way, the addons cannot have value if they have to be measured against the m1, because even with the best addon your M1 saves more time in most cases.
Someone playing poorly against you gets punished hardest by not using your power, and that feels awful.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3626922#Comment_3626922
I don’t think Trickster has been forgotten. I think his kill rates have stabilized to a much better range, that he’s much easier to use for console, and the bulk of complaints about “reworked Trickster being too overpowered” have stopped.
I think the rework was considered to be successful, and Trickster is on maintenance mode right now. And this is why this post isn’t pinned anymore.
There are no stats to prove any of this and the majority of complaints atm are not at all about powerlevel but about the feeling of the character being lacking compared to previous versions and the horrendous amount of visual and audio bugs. gameplay may be in a relatively balanced state but balance is not the problem with the update imo.
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@Revvium said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3622558#Comment_3622558
Honestly rereading this, i don't hate this. I'd very much prefer to keep combo as a modifier for certain addon effects in the happenstance that you get a B-S tier combo and keep the basekit value low though. I much prefer addons that interact with a system thats interesting rather than fiddling with survivors internal clock for timing out laceration decay, i have a few other comments and critiques:
- I REALLY LIKE making base-kit laceration decay tick down at the end of the 3 sec timer, gaming against trickster around the meter would feel nice and require trickster to keep up consistent pressure to maintain. Because of this caveat I'd honestly knock down the decay timer to 10 seconds. Also survivor HUD needs to show the stacks dropping like in the past, its been bugged for a millennia.
- I'm actually astonished once i read through your changes for laceration decay how much this would complete its mini-game style gameplay loop, the timers need to be done right and adjusted but this would also add value to the "half laceration" addons innately.
- I would not mind a 2 charge punish on a miss assuming that main event remains at a 6 charges to activate level. Without the 2 charge system i would probably suggest a 18-20 charges required.
- Addons:
- Killing Part Chords: I hesitate to see where this would add good gameplay, would simply like to see something else here that doesn't fiddle with built in main event timings. this addon definitely needs a glow up though, that's for sure- maybe something like "increase laceration meter by 2 knives ( 8 knife laceration meter) and increase throw rate by 20%" BHVR would be better than me at setting values, but having transformative addons here definitely helps a lot for Trickster enjoyment and enjoyment in a way that feels fair with a trade-off.
- Death Throes Compilation: I'd rather see this kind of effect attached to Melodious Murder for thematic reasons, and give this addon some sort of "Tuned Carborator" treatment, make it reduce our movement speed to 4.4 m/s and in return make the laceration meter 2 knives lower and reduce our throw-rate. I love the slow and methodical style of 4.4 and it just simply not existing anymore even within addon capacity is very sad. I do love your idea though, I just think Melodious is currently better suited for this.
- Iridescent Photocard: Honestly I don't mind this change, but it doesn't really need a laceration meter component- and could probably remain at 7 since you can potentially get that extra haste % if people are bodyblocking, again this addon doesn't break anything or go above and beyond currently and with higher values on average, with 6 knife trickster I only see this average haste % going down.
- Trick Blades: This addon doesn't really need any nerfs, I feel this would just lead to wasted work on BHVR's side for a niche case that hardly ever ends up finishing a survivors laceration meter outside of specified ranges. I'm thinking this catches a stray survivor with nearly full laceration meter once in maybe 1000~ games estimating based on my usage of it.
- Ripper brace: I think turning this up to 1.5x laceration is okay at the current range you have set. I'd honestly prefer this to even go to 2x laceration instead at 24m. Trickster currently has 0 reason to shoot from afar, and I think adding a benefit to his approach "Deadzone" is fun for a variety of reasons, and doesn't cause any problems since you still have to have clear line of sight and maintain accuracy on a projectile at far ranges.
- Bloody Boa: I don't mind moving this effect onto bloody boa, some currently like DTC but it's definitely not of iridescent quality to say the least.
- Fizz-Spin Soda: An addon like this I dislike, I find status-effects just kind of unnecessary and uninspired for trickster's kit. Perhaps you could roll combo into an addon exclusively and put that here.
- Trick Pouch: This addon could honestly go up to 15 and it would still be fine, especially if we don't have a second addon giving ammo. Personally i would prefer to see BOA go back to its 15 knife, and Trick pouch go back to 10- these both just felt great and didn't break anything.
- Inferno Wires: Big fan of this kind of addon existing and I see why you have the downside for missing set to 2, this adds an interesting dynamic in which this addon can change flow without causing huge concern.
- Memento Blades: Yes absolutely I want old death throes compilation back. Gimme gimme
- On-Target Single: I'd rather this not mess with baseline survivor internal clock on laceration meter, I think its a core of why Trickster is frustrating to play against and is to be avoided. I'd love to see a second "snipe encouraging addon" in this spot, perhaps the same effect you have for Ripper brace, but less numerically of a value so that ripper brace is clearly the better of the two.
- Ji-Woon's Autograph: Set this one to 2 and I honestly think it would be fine, old soda was fine and not very exciting anyway from a power-level perspective ( I love the design, especially with the matching slowdown as a double edged sword)
- Lucky Blade: I really dislike fiddling with laceration meter muscle memory for survivors, same reasoning as on-target.
- There's TONS of audio/visual triggers that simply do not function at the moment, these NEED to be added back regardless of which version BHVR ends up landing on. There are some audio triggers i've not seen since release, and some that I see once a month at most. Also some audio is extremely quiet or just not there (all of Trickster's knives used to hiss as they flew past you or left your hand, adding a sort of "weight" to them for both sides, and making main event far more of a notified threat) adding something of a main event "Active warning" alike oni is also a very good idea.
- I think combo can still work for addon design and honestly would be great to see in unison with your idea's, a lot of those laceration meter addons could be remapped toward a combo system for a playstyle that revolves around trying to never miss as opposed to downing survivors as fast as possible, this could lead to allowing for more customization of your trickster experience instead of the current version we have that feels frankly dull. We all want to be laughing alongside the maniacal madman that's putting on a show, his show cannot consist of dull mechanics and he's always had a multiple faceted design that elaborated on the complexity between the lines. Combo would be interesting and provide a style if in his addons but if it is put into addons it needs visual feedback (thinking samira from league of legends as an example) laceration duration modifying addons are boring for both sides and combo could fill that gap where laceration meter severely falls short. Personally combo to a small extent existing inside of basekit also provides a neat little minigame that doesn't break anything due to how rarely an A and S tier combo pop up (i see it honestly maybe a few times a game) something like this can exist without completely scrapping it and provide some hooks for addons to build upon.
This is all I can really think of at the moment, glad I went back and reread to conceptualize in my head. Excited for the future and hoping for some sort of response soon from the team.
Thanks- Revvium <3
I think the best thing about reading this is it's opened my eyes about laceration, if decay started sooner but took longer to drain you could create a "Race against the clock" mentality where the survivors goal is to drain your bar out. Currently this gameplay loop results in either full drain scenario's or never ever decaying. Adjusting decay period to be longer basekit could give survivors a better concept of agency within the chase without directly hurting trickster's power level overall.
For ease of understanding conceptualize this exaggerated value:
- 5 second decay, but each laceration takes 5 seconds to drain and doesn't count as dropping a stack until that individual laceration number hits 0. For example: you get hit by a knife and it begins decaying in 5 seconds and then takes 5 seconds to get removed from that decay. leading to decay being on average similar values but allowing for more "interactive meter gameplay" as opposed to waiting 10 seconds of NOTHING followed by the meter hitting 0 in a matter of moments. The first example would feel better on survivor side because you see your progress for each moment you're breaking LOS and it would also feel better on killer side because your entire burst you did cannot just evaporate in a few moments visually on the meter. In practicality this would be the exact same overall time but encourage the trickster to "stop the meter" as they see it going down.
I hope this explains why I think this is such a groundbreaking difference of gameplay loop for survivor experience and also just trickster overall OP explained the decay better than I did but, we'd love to see those neon strikes on survivor side not be bugged again and this kind of thing would help with that.
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@StarstruckFrog said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3622406#Comment_3622406
Listen man, I understand you don't seem to like me or my ideas based on our various interactions. But the fact that in the many times we've talked you've never offered a single constructive idea to bounce back at me is pretty bothersome. You only defend current trickster and seem to dismiss the mere idea that he could be better, and FEEL better for both sides by a mile. I don't care that "old trickster was dark souls" and don't wanna hear nonsense comparisons like "Worse Huntress." I'm trying to have productive conversations here about a character I enjoyed playing.
Oh, and if you're "questioning if I'm a trickster main," I think my gameplay speaks for itself, thanks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhhCdKgwLiM
Regardless of all that, I think we just fundamentally disagree about the design of the character. I think Main Event in it's entirety adds nothing to Trickster's identity. It's not special. It's more of the same. It's fundamentally just throwing knives faster, which I don't think is hugely necessary with the re-implementation of trickster old throwing rate, which gets the job done much more effectively and with more control. Infinite ammo sustained fire is never going to be as interesting as the dynamic throw rate, which added so much to the character in my opinion.
That said, I agree that adding the penalty AND increasing the requirement to 12 was too much. But, I still do think there should be some way to lose stacks. Though to be honest: I don't know how exactly to get it right without sacrificing some add-on slots to just forever be duplicates, which I don't find fun. Initially I had it so that you'd only lose 1 charge per miss, but I was so creatively bankrupt when it came time to make add-ons that I couldn't think of a new one, so I increased it to 2 so I could have an excuse to make a new addon that decreased it.
Other than that, I'm not sure what else to say. I pretty much wholeheartedly maintain my core stance that 6-Knife Meter is the best route for the character, followed up by returning to his old throw rate, in exchange for main event taking a hit to it's usefulness. I also hate duplicate add-ons, so I tried to come up with as many unique ones as I could. Some of them were bad and hapless, I'll own that, but I also firmly believe you underestimate how obnoxiously easy Trick Blades are to use.
While yes the calculated shots the add-on allows are great, the add-on is commonly used by trickster players who don't put much effort into aiming, and instead opt to bring indoor maps and just spam in the general direction of a survivor hoping one will land. I added the range limit to encourage Trickster players to actually aim directly at Survs at medium range, and only use the ricochet effect when actually playing tiles in smart ways. I feel like that is more than fair given all the other buffs I want to see come to normal trickster, but I think the range could be increased to be fair.
After reading all the comments, I own the fact that my proposed rework here wasn't perfect, so I've taken the initiative and decided to revamp it again, simplifying it much more.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/XJP3S02I3U6I/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/HR4R0YXZL25O/image.png
This way, I get all the old basekit mechanics I loved, all the fun add-ons I like, every part of the kit is pretty strong but not overtuned, and you get your 15s decay back and better trick blades. Let me know if you have any problems with this and try to actually be constructive regardless of whether or not you disagree with some changes.
(Keep in mind Main Event's duration is very short now, but this is to compensate for the fact that you have to hit less knives during it for a health state than before. I feel like that's a worthy trade-off)
Honestly rereading this, i don't hate this. I'd very much prefer to keep combo as a modifier for certain addon effects in the happenstance that you get a B-S tier combo and keep the basekit value low though. I much prefer addons that interact with a system thats interesting rather than fiddling with survivors internal clock for timing out laceration decay, i have a few other comments and critiques:
- I REALLY LIKE making base-kit laceration decay tick down at the end of the 3 sec timer, gaming against trickster around the meter would feel nice and require trickster to keep up consistent pressure to maintain. Because of this caveat I'd honestly knock down the decay timer to 10 seconds. Also survivor HUD needs to show the stacks dropping like in the past, its been bugged for a millennia.
- I'm actually astonished once i read through your changes for laceration decay how much this would complete its mini-game style gameplay loop, the timers need to be done right and adjusted but this would also add value to the "half laceration" addons innately.
- I would not mind a 2 charge punish on a miss assuming that main event remains at a 6 charges to activate level. Without the 2 charge system i would probably suggest a 18-20 charges required.
- Addons:
- Killing Part Chords: I hesitate to see where this would add good gameplay, would simply like to see something else here that doesn't fiddle with built in main event timings. this addon definitely needs a glow up though, that's for sure- maybe something like "increase laceration meter by 2 knives ( 8 knife laceration meter) and increase throw rate by 20%" BHVR would be better than me at setting values, but having transformative addons here definitely helps a lot for Trickster enjoyment and enjoyment in a way that feels fair with a trade-off.
- Death Throes Compilation: I'd rather see this kind of effect attached to Melodious Murder for thematic reasons, and give this addon some sort of "Tuned Carborator" treatment, make it reduce our movement speed to 4.4 m/s and in return make the laceration meter 2 knives lower and reduce our throw-rate. I love the slow and methodical style of 4.4 and it just simply not existing anymore even within addon capacity is very sad. I do love your idea though, I just think Melodious is currently better suited for this.
- Iridescent Photocard: Honestly I don't mind this change, but it doesn't really need a laceration meter component- and could probably remain at 7 since you can potentially get that extra haste % if people are bodyblocking, again this addon doesn't break anything or go above and beyond currently and with higher values on average, with 6 knife trickster I only see this average haste % going down.
- Trick Blades: This addon doesn't really need any nerfs, I feel this would just lead to wasted work on BHVR's side for a niche case that hardly ever ends up finishing a survivors laceration meter outside of specified ranges. I'm thinking this catches a stray survivor with nearly full laceration meter once in maybe 1000~ games estimating based on my usage of it.
- Ripper brace: I think turning this up to 1.5x laceration is okay at the current range you have set. I'd honestly prefer this to even go to 2x laceration instead at 24m. Trickster currently has 0 reason to shoot from afar, and I think adding a benefit to his approach "Deadzone" is fun for a variety of reasons, and doesn't cause any problems since you still have to have clear line of sight and maintain accuracy on a projectile at far ranges.
- Bloody Boa: I don't mind moving this effect onto bloody boa, some currently like DTC but it's definitely not of iridescent quality to say the least.
- Fizz-Spin Soda: An addon like this I dislike, I find status-effects just kind of unnecessary and uninspired for trickster's kit. Perhaps you could roll combo into an addon exclusively and put that here.
- Trick Pouch: This addon could honestly go up to 15 and it would still be fine, especially if we don't have a second addon giving ammo. Personally i would prefer to see BOA go back to its 15 knife, and Trick pouch go back to 10- these both just felt great and didn't break anything.
- Inferno Wires: Big fan of this kind of addon existing and I see why you have the downside for missing set to 2, this adds an interesting dynamic in which this addon can change flow without causing huge concern.
- Memento Blades: Yes absolutely I want old death throes compilation back. Gimme gimme
- On-Target Single: I'd rather this not mess with baseline survivor internal clock on laceration meter, I think its a core of why Trickster is frustrating to play against and is to be avoided. I'd love to see a second "snipe encouraging addon" in this spot, perhaps the same effect you have for Ripper brace, but less numerically of a value so that ripper brace is clearly the better of the two.
- Ji-Woon's Autograph: Set this one to 2 and I honestly think it would be fine, old soda was fine and not very exciting anyway from a power-level perspective ( I love the design, especially with the matching slowdown as a double edged sword)
- Lucky Blade: I really dislike fiddling with laceration meter muscle memory for survivors, same reasoning as on-target.
- There's TONS of audio/visual triggers that simply do not function at the moment, these NEED to be added back regardless of which version BHVR ends up landing on. There are some audio triggers i've not seen since release, and some that I see once a month at most. Also some audio is extremely quiet or just not there (all of Trickster's knives used to hiss as they flew past you or left your hand, adding a sort of "weight" to them for both sides, and making main event far more of a notified threat) adding something of a main event "Active warning" alike oni is also a very good idea.
- I think combo can still work for addon design and honestly would be great to see in unison with your idea's, a lot of those laceration meter addons could be remapped toward a combo system for a playstyle that revolves around trying to never miss as opposed to downing survivors as fast as possible, this could lead to allowing for more customization of your trickster experience instead of the current version we have that feels frankly dull. We all want to be laughing alongside the maniacal madman that's putting on a show, his show cannot consist of dull mechanics and he's always had a multiple faceted design that elaborated on the complexity between the lines. Combo would be interesting and provide a style if in his addons but if it is put into addons it needs visual feedback (thinking samira from league of legends as an example) laceration duration modifying addons are boring for both sides and combo could fill that gap where laceration meter severely falls short. Personally combo to a small extent existing inside of basekit also provides a neat little minigame that doesn't break anything due to how rarely an A and S tier combo pop up (i see it honestly maybe a few times a game) something like this can exist without completely scrapping it and provide some hooks for addons to build upon.
This is all I can really think of at the moment, glad I went back and reread to conceptualize in my head. Excited for the future and hoping for some sort of response soon from the team.
Thanks- Revvium <3
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Also when are we getting all the sound and visuals de-bugged? watching back original trickster PTB makes me cry, there's so many good visual and audio effects that have been rendered almost nonexistent which is horrific, i fell in love with this character because of his charm, charm given by his insanely good audio and visual design. Some sound effects i go thousands of games without hearing, and his old "HYUH HYUH HYUH" when ramping up is gone too! it so sad!
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I think the Trickster community has shown to be extremely passionate. Speaking up is very good in the community forums and especially when it comes to feedback. Would the devs (or community managers) be able to comment on if changes are in the works? a TBD or anything to confirm that there's steps being taken would go miles to help player confidence, especially considering the character functioned very well prior to these changes for a large amount of people and we've had to effectively take a 1-2 month break from some of our favorite concepts about the game after hearing about a supposed quality of life update. It's worrying to hear radio silence on this topic considering how dear this character is to each of us.
Thanks! - Revvium 💖
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3623204#Comment_3623204
I don't think both styles can co-exist, because you AGAIN decided to super nerf Memento Blades, just for your own personal playstyle. You are fully aware of how many people like the current effect of Memento Blades, yet you repeatedly try to rip that addon away from us.
And the movement speed addons are important for many console players, or other people that just aren’t very good at aiming, because it allows people to try to use his M2 often, without feeling like they’re getting overly punished for trying to use his M2. Saying it “teaches bad habits” is sort of shaming people that just want to play a character that they might not be super good at. These addons lower the barrier of entry for Trickster, which is a good thing.
And the movement speed addons aren’t “taking skill away” from the killer, because the people using these addons aren’t super good at aiming, which means they are using these addons for quality of life purposes. Nerfing or reworking these addons isn’t likely to force these people to “get better” at the killer. It’s more likely it would cause these people to use his M2 much less, feel like his M2 is not worth using, and just stop playing the killer.
I think it’s important to have at least one ranged character that’s beginner friendly, because many new players have experience with FPS games, where the primary attacks involve projectiles, but before Trickster’s rework, all the projectile killers in DBD were so clunky and purposely difficult for new players, that it causes a barrier of entry problem for this game. Yes, it would be even better if BHVR could find a way to make Huntress beginner friendly, since she is a default character, but the Trickster rework was a good start.
Also you seem to be confusing me with someone else, I have no proposed nerfs at all lol.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3623204#Comment_3623204
I don't think both styles can co-exist, because you AGAIN decided to super nerf Memento Blades, just for your own personal playstyle. You are fully aware of how many people like the current effect of Memento Blades, yet you repeatedly try to rip that addon away from us.
And the movement speed addons are important for many console players, or other people that just aren’t very good at aiming, because it allows people to try to use his M2 often, without feeling like they’re getting overly punished for trying to use his M2. Saying it “teaches bad habits” is sort of shaming people that just want to play a character that they might not be super good at. These addons lower the barrier of entry for Trickster, which is a good thing.
And the movement speed addons aren’t “taking skill away” from the killer, because the people using these addons aren’t super good at aiming, which means they are using these addons for quality of life purposes. Nerfing or reworking these addons isn’t likely to force these people to “get better” at the killer. It’s more likely it would cause these people to use his M2 much less, feel like his M2 is not worth using, and just stop playing the killer.
I think it’s important to have at least one ranged character that’s beginner friendly, because many new players have experience with FPS games, where the primary attacks involve projectiles, but before Trickster’s rework, all the projectile killers in DBD were so clunky and purposely difficult for new players, that it causes a barrier of entry problem for this game. Yes, it would be even better if BHVR could find a way to make Huntress beginner friendly, since she is a default character, but the Trickster rework was a good start.
My aim would be to add accessibility and the ramping throw speed increase to base-kit, a large % of the playerbase currently feel dependent on memento base-kit. I've posted a proposed throw rate pass above in order to keep tricksters feel "evergreen" and not change muscle memory, trickster addons should change utility imo and never make you less well off or feel less fun when not using them. Memento suffers from this issue quite a bit but i think it could stay, I definitely agree memento is fun to use but i also think ramping would be a great tuning knob to utilize for other addons. <3
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@Liozio said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3622546#Comment_3622546
Its a middle ground between old 30 blade and current 6 though. I feel there's a lack of consideration of the surv experience here, so I'm just going to agree to disagree.
The current is not 6
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@Revvium said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3623204#Comment_3623204
I also want to clarify on the types of addons that could be enabled though combo system. combo system encourages you to play slow and never miss with a big payoff in main event. Addons that facilitate combo could look something like:
-Cut thru single
- Blades pierce through survivors
- Subsequent survivors hit by blades receive 50% laceration
- Achieving an A or higher combo causes knives in main event to deal 150% laceration damage if they had already pierced a survivor
Obviously i'm not a game designer, but adding these little easter egg power spikes to combo could give a really interesting hype boost to patient tricksters, while not eliminating any playstyles.
Honestly every addon could have a "supercharged effect" like this due to how rare A and S tier combo's are in common play, patient and slow Trickster DESERVES TO BE REWARDED and it would be a very fun in the moment choice to say "do i want to go for a combo here in order to set up for shack soon, or do i want to go fast to keep my time efficiency"
There's so many upsides, and I'm so hyped for what a feature like this could do for gameplay variety and long-term enjoyment of Trickster, we want flare, we want stylish, we want the ability to laugh along with trickster as we're doing these wild displays. Main event deserves to be the dazzling display we see its potential in being, hopefully this would push it in the right direction for both thematic and gameplay flare.
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@Revvium said:
I believe snipe and slow style can be enabled through addons very easily. reintroducing things like original Death Throes Compilation could help in enabling that style, but there's a lot of room for it.
Addons that enable:
-Increased damage at long range
-lower laceration meter in exchange for being 4.4 m/s
-never missing making you more efficient ( as currently going for never-miss playstyle is simply inefficient)
also addons that amplify or have effects that affect you always however have special effects if you reach high combo level have the potential to add addons that give both playstyles very interesting variety. Hopefully BHVR is taking note here because there's a LOT of very good ideas that I think are circulating on this character from all sides. We all want our playstyles to matter, but a good baseline that allows for each playstyle to exist to a small extent in the base-kit and then "Fine tune" with addons is just the best avenue to take with the killer. any mechanic that punishes instead of encourages is very antithetical to this thought process and i believe seeks to keep one playstyle prevalent while underpowering all other playstyles (which i believe is kinda unfun and dull) also i want to say that some addons simply don't add anything to the kit and just add problems for both sides.
-Laceration Duration addons are annoying and frustrating to depend on so i encourage people to never run them, they feel extremely bad to get used to and then stop playing with. also playing against these addons sucks, laceration meter decay should be static and 15s is completely a good number as its worked in every iteration of the design. I propose these addons be turned into "snipe enabling addons" adding damage if you make a shot past 20 meters or so. Most of the time sniping is a massive waste of time because you cannot reliably pressure survivors that cut line of sight if you don't keep on top of them.
-Edge of revival is extremely undertuned for 8 knife trickster, the solution here i think is tricky because adding size to this addon may be problematic, i suggest adding a bonus effect for high combo and buffing laceration damage to 100% for the splash as opposed to .5 because as it stands this addon only wastes ammo and mathematically wastes a TON of potential main event charges.
-Cut thru single is currently very undertuned for 8 knife trickster as well, i think its value will go up with the addition of rolling some of tequila's value into basekit and nerfing main event addons to compensate because this addon should be just fine assuming our basekit doesn't rely on overtuned addons ( currently main event duration addons are way too valuable but just nerfing them would leave us in a very sad state)
-USB and ammo addons suck right now, i propose buffing these to 16 for boa, 10 for trickpouch, and usb to a higher percentage. With the increase of ammo saving we must make on main event we realistically reload way less than before, adding some raw number values to these addons wouldn't break anything and buff up the more patient (worse in terms of power level) strategy without requiring buffing of ammo capacity to basekit ( i dont think our basekit needs it)
-Soda and Ji woons with ramping can just go directly back into ramp up speed, this current version could even use a higher evaluation of these since our addon dependency has taken a sharp increase. more main events would mean that ramping would be less important, thus increasing these addons compared to previous iterations would be very good. perhaps 3 less knives to reach max and 2 less knives to reach maximum throw rate. (this would solidify a strong rapidfire basekit and allow for a capstone 4 kps for people that want such a thing without giving those styles additional addon multipliers off of it)
-Memento Blades can be 4.4 m/s movespeed and 6 knife to lacerate meter, requiring an addon in order to enable a style that may catch people off guard but is still very niche i think is fair, it being a common would allow for tricksters who miss this style to have their style frequently (if they like it, not all do but i miss it sometimes)
-Trickblades is fine, it's a good addon and always is decent for practiced tricksters and super interesting and i believe the pinnacle of trickster addons design, wish we had more of these types of addons with the caveat that we couldn't use multiple different "styles" of knife altering addons together. Trickblades is super fun, and it only helps us to a large degree on maps that are historically hard for trickster anyway.
-Death throes compilation can go back to its ORIGINAL version that enabled "never miss style" its very clear that current D.T.C. feels bland and unrewarding as a pickup on the bloodweb, especially since we have diamond cufflinks which fills a similar niche.
-Killing part chords and Shoes can honestly be higher values but be EXCLUSIVE toward main event. Those of us who have been avid teachers of Trickster have acknowledged for the longest time that while this addon combo is FUN for some, it encourages bad habits. Main event being more common now allows for this addon to be useful as a main event speed boost without encouraging super bad habits and overall making people have a worse time due to creating a dependency and muscle memory punishment.
-Tequila, inferno wires, waiting for you watch, lucky blade are overtuned as of this moment because our basekit doesnt have enough main event duration, these addons likely need tuning down (flat duration a large nerf, likely half value whereas waiting for you watch requires the enemy to be disregarding your main event to see its oni-snowball style value could use a SLIGHT nerf due to it not being super powerful, yet funny when it sees its infinite main event popoff moment) this doesn't happen every game but i'd not like to see it completely be eradicated because its neat and fun!
I think this covers all addons, but one thing is certain- main even being super common requires an oni-style notifcation. There's easy fixes to this current version that allow for all of the Trickster playstyles to be catered to without completely throwing this version out of the window.
PLEASE FORGIVE ME IM SO BAD AT FORMATTING LOL -Revium <3
I also want to clarify on the types of addons that could be enabled though combo system. combo system encourages you to play slow and never miss with a big payoff in main event. Addons that facilitate combo could look something like:
-Cut thru single
- Blades pierce through survivors
- Subsequent survivors hit by blades receive 50% laceration
- Achieving an A or higher combo causes knives in main event to deal 150% laceration damage if they had already pierced a survivor
Obviously i'm not a game designer, but adding these little easter egg power spikes to combo could give a really interesting hype boost to patient tricksters, while not eliminating any playstyles.
-
I believe snipe and slow style can be enabled through addons very easily. reintroducing things like original Death Throes Compilation could help in enabling that style, but there's a lot of room for it.
Addons that enable:
-Increased damage at long range
-lower laceration meter in exchange for being 4.4 m/s
-never missing making you more efficient ( as currently going for never-miss playstyle is simply inefficient)
also addons that amplify or have effects that affect you always however have special effects if you reach high combo level have the potential to add addons that give both playstyles very interesting variety. Hopefully BHVR is taking note here because there's a LOT of very good ideas that I think are circulating on this character from all sides. We all want our playstyles to matter, but a good baseline that allows for each playstyle to exist to a small extent in the base-kit and then "Fine tune" with addons is just the best avenue to take with the killer. any mechanic that punishes instead of encourages is very antithetical to this thought process and i believe seeks to keep one playstyle prevalent while underpowering all other playstyles (which i believe is kinda unfun and dull) also i want to say that some addons simply don't add anything to the kit and just add problems for both sides.
- Laceration Duration addons are annoying and frustrating to depend on so i encourage people to never run them, they feel extremely bad to get used to and then stop playing with. also playing against these addons sucks, laceration meter decay should be static and 15s is completely a good number as its worked in every iteration of the design. I propose these addons be turned into "snipe enabling addons" adding damage if you make a shot past 20 meters or so. Most of the time sniping is a massive waste of time because you cannot reliably pressure survivors that cut line of sight if you don't keep on top of them.
- Edge of revival is extremely undertuned for 8 knife trickster, the solution here i think is tricky because adding size to this addon may be problematic, i suggest adding a bonus effect for high combo and buffing laceration damage to 100% for the splash as opposed to .5 because as it stands this addon only wastes ammo and mathematically wastes a TON of potential main event charges.
- Cut thru single is currently very undertuned for 8 knife trickster as well, i think its value will go up with the addition of rolling some of tequila's value into basekit and nerfing main event addons to compensate because this addon should be just fine assuming our basekit doesn't rely on overtuned addons ( currently main event duration addons are way too valuable but just nerfing them would leave us in a very sad state)
- USB and ammo addons suck right now, i propose buffing these to 16 for boa, 10 for trickpouch, and usb to a higher percentage. With the increase of ammo saving we must make on main event we realistically reload way less than before, adding some raw number values to these addons wouldn't break anything and buff up the more patient (worse in terms of power level) strategy without requiring buffing of ammo capacity to basekit ( i dont think our basekit needs it)
- Soda and Ji woons with ramping can just go directly back into ramp up speed, this current version could even use a higher evaluation of these since our addon dependency has taken a sharp increase. more main events would mean that ramping would be less important, thus increasing these addons compared to previous iterations would be very good. perhaps 3 less knives to reach max and 2 less knives to reach maximum throw rate. (this would solidify a strong rapidfire basekit and allow for a capstone 4 kps for people that want such a thing without giving those styles additional addon multipliers off of it)
- Memento Blades can be 4.4 m/s movespeed and 6 knife to lacerate meter, requiring an addon in order to enable a style that may catch people off guard but is still very niche i think is fair, it being a common would allow for tricksters who miss this style to have their style frequently (if they like it, not all do but i miss it sometimes)
- Trickblades is fine, it's a good addon and always is decent for practiced tricksters and super interesting and i believe the pinnacle of trickster addons design, wish we had more of these types of addons with the caveat that we couldn't use multiple different "styles" of knife altering addons together. Trickblades is super fun, and it only helps us to a large degree on maps that are historically hard for trickster anyway.
- Death throes compilation can go back to its ORIGINAL version that enabled "never miss style" its very clear that current D.T.C. feels bland and unrewarding as a pickup on the bloodweb, especially since we have diamond cufflinks which fills a similar niche.
- Killing part chords and Shoes can honestly be higher values but be EXCLUSIVE toward main event. Those of us who have been avid teachers of Trickster have acknowledged for the longest time that while this addon combo is FUN for some, it encourages bad habits. Main event being more common now allows for this addon to be useful as a main event speed boost without encouraging super bad habits and overall making people have a worse time due to creating a dependency and muscle memory punishment.
- Tequila, inferno wires, waiting for you watch, lucky blade are overtuned as of this moment because our basekit doesnt have enough main event duration, these addons likely need tuning down (flat duration a large nerf, likely half value whereas waiting for you watch requires the enemy to be disregarding your main event to see its oni-snowball style value could use a SLIGHT nerf due to it not being super powerful, yet funny when it sees its infinite main event popoff moment) this doesn't happen every game but i'd not like to see it completely be eradicated because its neat and fun!
I think this covers all addons, but one thing is certain- main even being super common requires an oni-style notifcation. There's easy fixes to this current version that allow for all of the Trickster playstyles to be catered to without completely throwing this version out of the window.
PLEASE FORGIVE ME IM SO BAD AT FORMATTING LOL -Revium <3
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@Liozio said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3622464#Comment_3622464
OPs changes do not gut main event, they make it fairer to acquire and go against. I'd personally make 1 miss = 1 charge lost rather than two if it were up to me.
The OP conveyed the intent to "make it much less valuable in the base kit" forgive me if I'm using verbiage that can be pieced together through context as to what I mean. And yes, the math works out to gutting it from the basekit because it would require a 80% accuracy rating which current 1000+ hr trickster mains don't maintain. let alone controller aim can make possible, let alone what first time trickster on controller can make possible. It would absolutely be an axe to main event.
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@FFirebrandd said:
This entire thread is basically why I posted in the main feedback thread that they desperately need to make an add on that basically pushed the "undo" button on the rework. The changes were too large and varied to make everyone happy. And essentially deleting someone's favorite playable character is the fastest way to get them to hate you.
YES MEMENTO BLADES SHOULD BE "6 knife to lacerate, 4.4 m/s and it would be great. put more power into basekit, nerf main event addons etc.
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@StarstruckFrog said:
Also I feel like I should mention it, Just reverting the laceration meter to 6 alone would be enough to keep me playing forever. But his bad add-ons, messy main event balancing and weird changes to throw rate also hurt the fun of the character heavily in my mind.
I agree that old Trickster had a special feeling in base-kit without main event. I just don't think gutting main event needs to happen in order to restore the basekit flashiness we had before.
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@Liozio said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3620302#Comment_3620302
Only part of these changes I agree with is the indication ME is charged whether that be a visual, audio or both, and the increased requirement of charges to get into main event. I feel like the rest of the changes are overtuning him quite a bit and further pushing main event combos which is something me and OP really don't like due to the gameplay style it incentivizes.
In addition:
-My version is 4.6mps + 8knife + 3-4 ramp.
-OP's version is 4.6mps + 6knife+3-4 ramp up (but instead of buffing players that hit well and play slower, it becomes impossible to gain main event for controllers)
I fail to understand where this is "Overtuned" when my version is just weaker. (for raw math OP's version gets downs 33% faster if being accurate and not factoring in main event, which should be usable for people who don't have inhuman accuracy)
-I am not partial to my changes, I'm being pretty open on options, but we cannot adversely tell consoles that going full rapid-fire is just gonna result in them never getting main event. Most of the OP's addons are attached to main event, which would result in most addons being unusable for controller.
It forces you to play fast to ramp up while also making it so that if your accuracy is bad you just don't get access to your iconic ability "Main Event". The ideal version of The Trickster to me is a character that bridges the gap between console and PC by giving a style that allows for M1 + rapid-fire for console (with option to combo when they can) while still giving the more accurate tricksters some "carrot to chase" which can achieve fantastical things and grand displays. My version is intentionally under-tuned for PC - because console needs to have a style that works for them.
Not just that but Trickster counter-play is unclear and undefined for a lot of survivors, giving a notification and increasing his punishment for not killing with main event will help a TON with his frustration, I really like the intensity that the new version provides, but this low dependency on ammo as well as his unclear counter-play is an area that demands improvement!
That being said, consoles not being able to main event because they missed 2 knives in 14 isn't okay. and would be a DISASTER as this rework was supposed to bridge the gap between controller and mouse + keyboard.
Lastly, The Trickster needs a base-kit that allows for addon diversity. If you don't have a base-kit with a lot of knobs, then its hard to give him good variety. All of which could be greatly improved upon, the combo system is a good addition for addon reasons and so is ramp up. but it needs to be done elegantly. and -2 for missing to "Main Event" charges is debilitating.
Much love, excited to see the future of The Trickster regardless of where he lands and I'm hoping we can fit in some snipe buffing addons as well for some sick clips and fun stylistic diversity. - Revium 💞
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@Liozio said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3620302#Comment_3620302
Only part of these changes I agree with is the indication ME is charged whether that be a visual, audio or both, and the increased requirement of charges to get into main event. I feel like the rest of the changes are overtuning him quite a bit and further pushing main event combos which is something me and OP really don't like due to the gameplay style it incentivizes.
Yeah i think regardless of what version of kit we land on, Oni-style charge up notification is very pivotal toward allowing people who aren't super well-versed against trickster having a better more transparent experience!
I fear that punishing Trickster from missing will disproportionately hurt console players, which is a very bad thing. buffing the combo system however i feel allows for tequila to be nerfed and flowed more into basekit- rewarding "Hole shots" and slow tempo without removing the fast paced rapidfire style altogether. from a basekit that allows multiple styles- it would allow consoles to utilize rapidfire and branch into combos when they feel its possible. Unfortunately if you punish misses i feel consoles will just never main event because the math is so painful.
Open to changing that opinion with supporting evidence though!
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My Trickster Version (not including addons)
4.6 M/s, 3.86 M/s while holding knives(ramping slow), 24m Terror radius, 40m lullaby
8 knives to injure | 3 Ramping to 4 Knives per second w/ slowdown(Prerwk) | 44 ammo
15 second decay
12/16 knives to charge main event
base main event duration(6 sec) x1.66 throwrate = 6.4kps Showstopper fatigue set to 4
Combo system (same but improved)
S(8knives) = 6 second extension + 1 bounce
A(7knives) = 5 second extension + 5% movespeed to M.E.
B(6knives) = 4 second extension + bonus 5% throwrate to Main event
C(5knives) = 3 second extension
D(4knives) = 2 second extension
E(3knives) = 1 second extension
+Mapwide announcement of main event charged(for survivors)
+Visual feedback system of the combo system(let people know what combo they are at)
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My Trickster Version (not including addons)
4.6 M/s, 3.86 M/s while holding knives(ramping slow), 24m Terror radius, 40m lullaby
8 knives to injure | 3 Ramping to 4 Knives per second w/ slowdown(Prerwk) | 44 ammo
15 second decay
12/16 knives to charge main event
base main event duration(6 sec) x1.66 throwrate = 6.4kps Showstopper fatigue set to 4
Combo system (same but improved)
S(8knives) = 6 second extension + 1 bounce
A(7knives) = 5 second extension + 5% movespeed to M.E.
B(6knives) = 4 second extension + bonus 5% throwrate to Main event
C(5knives) = 3 second extension
D(4knives) = 2 second extension
E(3knives) = 1 second extension
+Mapwide announcement of main event charged(for survivors)
+Visual feedback system of the combo system(let people know what combo they are at)
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Hello, Revium - Self proclaimed Trickster Enjoyer here
I have a TON of thoughts on The Trickster's addons and i hope that video format works because text is not a very good place to show visual stimuli for my reasoning. Hope this is okay as it is most convenient for myself while I am doing other work.
(I AM PRIMARILY TALKING ABOUT ADDONS AND HOW TO MAKE THEM FEEL GOOD) from the perspective of someone who's mained trickster since his initial release and has played all iterations and seen where he needs improvement in each.
(https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2010834927) In this video i use ms paint to show my feelings.
Thank you for hearing me out - Revium🤩
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@OrangeBear said:
In my opinion the update is not for dedicated trickster players. It's intended for people that do not play him, to renew his appeal. He is an unpopular choice, and i don't think it's fair to basically say he's unpopular because people are bad at him, i find that to be dismissive of the frustrations that people have with him which i think this update addresses.
I also don't agree that the YT vids of his add-ons are the reason why he got nerfed. Many people agreed he was overtuned outside of that. Main Event being able in three knives and 4 knives a second with no recoil was a huge jump.
Personally i got into the game because of the All-Kill chapter. But i have always found trickster to be extremely frustrating, which always disappointed me because i love the character but i found him so underwhelming. My main problems were that he felt powerless when there was a lack of line of sight. So i always wanted him to be 4.6m/s to alleviate that. Missing a critical knife because of recoil i also found very frustrating, so i am glad that was removed. I have also always found main event awkward. Because it took 30 knives, to me, it was becoming available at unexpected times. It being available much more often i think will allow main event to be a much more relevant part of his gameplay. This update is very exciting for me.
I am sorry you don't like this new version but honestly i would rather trickster be more appealing/accessible than have a higher skill ceiling.
Heyo! Revvium here, self proclaimed Trickster enjoyer!
I wanted to comment on a few of the things mentioned here, firstly being the topic of accessibility and the things the update does & doesn't do well. FIRSTLY there's a handful of frustrating learning elements being added including:
- 33% less wiggle room with knife usage due to the 2 knife increase to injure while not being given more knives to play around with.(You have to make every single knife count with current trickster, this is becoming more narrow and punishing)
- Laceration meter decay is going to negatively impact tricksters who want to throw knives further than 20 meters away. By the time you catch up to a person they've already fully recovered and effectively resulted in the trickster being "noob-trapped" so to speak. ( that sick snipe you can make is unfortunately not rewarded in any way)
- Main event is currently and even more so going to be used to conserve ammo, with 20% less knives to play with, the gameplay is going to hinge far more on not using the power in specific loops or giving up on the power to just go for an M1.(I personally dislike redesigning a killer with the goal to make their power less iconic and devolve into more homogenized gameplay)
There's of course a bunch of other quality of life issues that Trickster faces, however there's also a few good things that the update does! including:
- Less 'noob trap' for continuous throwing, currently it is not optimal to throw more than a small handful of knives before putting your knife back down and catching up. This problem with the killer is being alleviated! you are now not overtly punished for remaining in knife throwing mode (however this is offset by the laceration meter decay which is a net QoL nerf)
- More access to 'Main Event' means more practice with it, and combo meter provides more positive feedback for the player (this is pretty self explanatory, buffing user experience is just good; BONUS POINTS IF WE GET REWARDED WITH COOL AUDIO FOR MANAGING A COMBO)
- Recoil being removed helps accessibility, however the killer doesn't gain any tangible boost for people who have already mastered it, this is fine; however we are getting nerfs to compensate for it.
We've already felt how 8 knife trickster felt, that version needed buffs to make him playable for a wider audience. We're getting that version with
- 3 knives per second instead of 4 knives per second (had to dig through old videos of this because it's not documented on the wiki for some reason)
- Faster main event charge, however main event has never been a pivotal part of him getting results, we currently waste a large majority of our main events because there's just not a lot of application here toward a large amount of tiles(not to mention its a very nerfed down main event because its only 5 seconds long, and failing a main event often results in a chase loss due to the fatigue)
- 50% lower decay time ( yes the decay timer was 20 seconds instead of 10, and we still had trouble finding purchase in chases, 8 knives is dramatic not to mention a lot of us utilized old "Melodius Murder" which knocked our knifes required down to 7)
- 4.6 M/s while NOT utilizing our power, which means that we're further pushed into simply going for M1's
- We have been here before, this version of trickster was already tried and had way stronger addons while still most tricksters opted to not use the power and m1 instead even with 4.4M/s
- 4.6m/s is almost begging for Trickster's to m1 instead of utilize their power on a large amount of tiles, 50% lower decay time means you need to immediately get value or lose it.
Considering that we've been here before, there's little doubt in my mind that Trickster is becoming significantly more frustrating to play while not alleviating most of his issues. My peers and I all agreed on this point prior to conjoining for our opinion on the doc.
Thank you for hearing us out, hope to see you all in the fog ! :D - Rev