DeliciousFood
DeliciousFood
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Maybe you just suck.
It's way too easy to get good at holding M1 and W. It's way too asinine to compensate for this absurdly low skill floor with 90% of the roster. Not hard, asinine. Artist is included in that 90%
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Nemesis.
Resident Evil fan and he's just rewarding for a decent amount of skill.
Unsure of the hours, probably 70 overall.
I get high MMR with no slowdown, so I think I'm in higher brackets. Couldn't give you a number.
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I mean you'll always be lesser than those that don't need to tunnel to win/have fun. So I wouldn't say 'no skill', just 'lesser skilled' than what is probably the average (The forum complainers are definitely not the average). Try playing with less tunnelling, do it sparingly as more of a reaction, and you'll probably improve and have more fun.
By looking at some answers, I'm starting to wonder if people in this forum just care about dominating the other side over having fun/feel rewarded for skill in a game that's awfully repetitive and janky. Loads of copium indeed.
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@BrokenSouI said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2622616#Comment_2622616
Ok. Well let me tell you. In all my time of DBD. I've NEVER had a survivor worry about my "fun" Never cared about how fast they gen rushed. Or what structures they abused. The same survivors that would be nice to me if I played "fair". Are the same survivors who tell me to go kill myself. Or other horrible things if I don't play how they feel is fair. So no. I don't give a damn about other peoples fun. Especially at the expense of my own.
With that said. Let me tell you about MY fun. MY fun is feeling I've made the best choice possible at every step of the way possible. Sometimes that means I can play "fair" Sometimes it means I need to camp, tunnel, slug to apply pressure.
Now let me tell you about a game I had. Dead Dawg..I downed someone RIGHT IN FRONT of another survivor. The other survivor decided to greed the gen. So I downed them pretty quickly. So now I have 2 hooks within 10m of a regressing gen..You bet your ass I'm NOT leaving those hooks. I have 0 incentive to.. They HAVE to come rescue 2 players near a gen I'm regressing.. Despite one of them trying to get my attention so the other could unhook. You bet your ass I'm not taking the bait and leaving....Is it boring ? Sure, depending on who you ask. But it would be STUPID to leave...For what exactly...? So they can get 2 safe unhooks and heal up ? No. That would be absolutely stupid of me
Well I have had survivors be not dick heads and even pity me when I wasn't as good as I am now. So maybe I'm just luckier or more pleasant. Doesn't truly matter. But even then, why should they show consideration for your fun? The only fun to be had is being chased and it's entirely up to you to provide that. Otherwise, what are they going to do? Sandbag their teammates? No, they'll do gens. And they'll go fast if you're not doing a good job or the map is #########. Survivor playstyle only has one form of variance: Do Gens and get chased. Now I'll agree that sweaty teams that are way too efficient are the worst, but at least they tend to be skilful and make for fun chases.
You make a fair point that fun is subjective. But I make a fair point that the game would be far better without resorting to these strategies pre-maturely. You might be happy you made the right strategic choice, but was it fun to execute? I refuse to believe camping or purposely tunnelling a guy three times in a row is actually fun to a normal human being. I once again thank the many streamers that forego this optimal play for fun (and still often win), they do inspire more people these days.
I will agree that context is important. From what I was reacting to, it seemed like people just camp when their ruin pops or gens pop rather quickly at the start. What you've described is survivors desperately trying to do gens quickly over doing the fun part of the game. A good strategy at endgame, dumb if there are still other gens, so now they get punished. Your strategy was the right one if you really wanted to win. And one I'd use if I was sent to the map or if survivors were clearly trying to sweat super hard that hits unfun levels. But, the thing is, if they're just pulling a soloQ and I have two downs in a similar manner, I'll rarely camp them, because it's ######### boring and dull, even if optimal. Because optimal strategy and play in DBD is a scourge. And surprisingly, I cannot say I NEVER get consideration from survivors, because I do, albeit more rarely, but that's because the power of mercy is mostly in my hands as killer. Perhaps my more chase-oriented and lack of care for securing stages/kills is what makes some people (survivors are people like killers) want to be nicer. Probably. Or I'm just lucky.
Unsurprisingly, my killer games have been me devoid of stress, beyond crappy map design and collision. Survivor games are sucking even more unless I'm in a team.
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@BrokenSouI said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2621668#Comment_2621668
It's not typically done to "ruin others fun" Get over yourself
It's the inevitable consequence of it. Ruins the survivors' fun but also your own, because I know no human being that actually has fun standing in one area. Trolls might think it's funny, but it isn't stimulating or 'fun'. Perhaps the intent isn't malicious, but this is the consequence. And even then the intent isn't all that brilliant if that's your strategic choice before all gens have popped. Game's never lost until they're out of the gate. But then again current metas have conditioned many to obsess over generators.
Although I'll agree that my first post was a bit 'too much', I suppose I was frustrated to see this when I don't resort to this sort of mindset when I'm playing killer, but those I face do far too often. It's tiring and I honestly think longer queues are worth the gain in fun games.
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@Toastyy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/293126/another-camping-thread-its-getting-worse
Killers are face camping due to knowing they can’t win a match because either gens went too quick or they can’t catch the survivors very easily. The busted boon totems are also why people are face camping so it most likely wont calm down till they nerf boons.
"I don't have the skill or I've had bad RNG which is a staple of this game's formula that I've agreed to enduring by playing it at least a few times, so I'm just going to stand still and make sure little interaction is made by anyone on the team because it's definitely their fault for being at least decent at an imbalanced game that's supposed to be play for fun alone. If I'm having a bad time, everyone else should too, that's why I play video games."
Please play another game. I can get behind this stuff when all gens have popped, but until then? You should probably just stay away from this game if that's your kneejerk reaction to people probably playing the game normally. God, people really have the pettiest reactions in this game. It's absolutely refreshing that many streamers don't have this attitude and either go for as many chases as possible or just win despite the odds.
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Dead hard for distance has no counter, and it's the only right way to really use it. It's so good that it's the most popular exhaustion perk in higher level. It's obviously too good for just one perk slot. It buys way too much time by one survivor when there are potentially three more with the same perk. You can at least cut someone off if they have Sprint Burst, and Sprint Burst can't save you from certain powers. Although I agree that SB is very strong, DH is more popular for a reason. It's just gives way too much power to one survivor mid-chase. While SB you can just drop chase and get them later.
Exhaustion, like some regression perks, need to be revised. They do wayyyy too much with how the game's evolved.
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I'm really not enjoying Blight anymore on both fronts. It feels absolutely ludicrous some of the curves and flicks he can do. It feel like the notion of calculating your slams and getting the right angles doesn't matter when you can just do mega flicks around walls. Not necessarily 180's mind you, though that was just complete abuse of exploits and not possible, but those absurd flicks that leave little to work with. He's already very strong with his counter to W and overwhelming map presence, but he also gets ludicrous hits everywhere? Ugh. The fact that I can win most matches with half that arsenal says a lot.
I feel like facing Blights is less about factoring in your environment and your position, and more so hoping they mess up their flick or get disoriented by some stupid spin attempt. Otherwise I feel like their flicks when lunging are faaaaar too generous. I wouldn't be against stricter gameplay, though I'd hate to see him gutted. He's still plenty fun, but he could use actual weaknesses that aren't ######### collision/map design.
His addons are also stupid but that's another discussion, though it adds to the shitshow that is how his power is used by better players.
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Remove zombies - RNG is garbage in this game and they're never used to his advantage in the games unless he mutates them.
Make him actually mutate - Whether more animalistic like the remake or full tentacle fun like in the original.
No more 3 hit BS - This whole vaccine thing is meh and the infection itself severely incapacitated Jill.
Similar to Freddy, allow him to use addons to switch up his power - You can choose to either have you power mutate you (default) or have an addon that gives you something like a rocket launcher, making him a ranged killer of sorts but won't mutate, or very little.
He needs a more endgame perk, given he has a pretty big climax in both games in his last act of desperation.
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@HommeBizarre said:
The Nurse is the only reliable killer in this game
Why do I feel forced to play her in order to have fun as killer?
Because you're probably not that good. Or you just don't like the standard DBD experience. In any case, why are you playing this game if the only source of fun is the killer that negates the elements that make it challenging? Go play Dark Souls.
Many 'A Tier' killers are reliable, even in this MMR mess. Feeling's entirely you.
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As Killer:
Win - 3-4k that I had fun in.
Draw - Intense ending match with two escaping.
Loss - Boring matches with gens that fly at unreasonable speeds, no matter if I get 0k or 4k. 2k with a boring match and below are losses.
As survivor: Escape with at least 20k points. Or run a tunnelling killer for a long amount of time.
Unique win condition: If I have over 8 instances where without Dead Hard they'd be down, I consider it a win or at least a draw. At this point survivors are crutching and using an overwhelming advantage because people don't get how much power it gives to a single survivor.
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Exhaustion perks and regression perks are just these perks that do way more than a single perk should be doing. This isn't a 'what about' thing but rather me agreeing that there are just some perks that do WAY too much and give way too much power for just one slot or makes a survivor far too powerful. Dead Hard is the biggest culprit, as it makes ONE survivor far too powerful at delaying the killer, which in the current state of the game means so many gens are going to pop with little they can do, and thus makes for an unbearable experience.
I think a fair action would be to nerf some of the exhaustion perks, as I don't think ones like Head On or Smash Hit are an issue, especially dead hard, and counterbalance with a revision on regression perks. Way too many killers rely on them and it makes for bad habits. Playing without them is a difficult task reserved for those actually wanting a challenge or just want to try new things, that may not be for everyone, so a compromise of just adjusting some to be in line with other perks would be nice. See how killers manage with less regression at their disposal while survivors manage with less power in their exhaustion.
Still doesn't fix core issues like maps, but that is why I stand that Corrupt intervention shouldn't be touched, at least not until a SERIOUS map rework is done, and not what we've had the past year or so.
tldr; Agree that survivors crutch way too much on exhaustion and propose that both exhaustion and regression be revised simultaneously to make it 'fair' and see how the games go with these changes.
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@drpynz said:
When more people get the "feel" for Nemesis tentacle strike he will move up to A tier IMO. He has decent pressure with zombies though it's a bit RNG, and he can hit through pallets and vaults and is good on most loops. The survivor cant see where the tentacle is going to strike either like PH's punishment of the damned.
I think he's a bit too slow to be fully A material. I certainly think he can dominate the B section because nothing really stops his whip once in a tile. If he got some QoL changes similar to Plague in regards to that first tentacle hit being less of a momentum breaker and maybe making Marvin's blood base kit (or some middle ground to just get out of T1 faster it's so bad) without putting more mutation addons (unnecessary) yeah he could easily be A tier. His power is solid regardless of zombies, it just needs to 'feel' better and not just feel like it drags on.
@SeannyD115 said:
Part of it is because he's bugged. The timing of putting down his knife is off from the animation
Main reason why I've shelved him is this. I can't stand this bug whatsoever.
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It's fascinating how people are confusing fun with viability. Legion was trash, and this gimmick is even more trash (current Legion is also sort of trash but has gameplay). It speaks volumes of the mentalities of many people in this game, where I'm sure they'd argue that a killer getting a free down for just standing still would be 100% fine if the killer wasn't 'viable' yet they'd get something from it (probably stomp casuals).
This is dumb, Legion is in desperate need of a rework and hopefully the coming changes remove this garbage DW stuff. Give them something unique and not 'My power is literally stabbing people and detecting them for some reason that makes no sense'.
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Because cheese tactics are heavily rewarded in this game and people are desperate to get easy W's.
Until they actually face decent teams and then only have salty and whiny posts for this forum to rant about how survivor-sided the game is.
Game's boring when you tunnel, game's now boring when you don't because MMR has made it so that individual survivors can at least delay you a while even if you're more skilled. Not even saying it's bonkers unbalanced, it's just a bad system that has minimal fun in it.
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Next PTB should be around the start of November.
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Plague is your friend. She's got a super nice buff. No heals allowed. Green sickness makes tracking easy, and they make loads of noise. It's like Plague was made to ruin their day.
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@Bjario said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2573077#Comment_2573077
''abandon chase meta'' that has only been the only way for a killer not to lose a game. abandon a chase and keep pressure on all 4 survivors. it's not a ''meta''
You're not wrong, a good killer will abandon chase when they have good reason to. This ranges from bad tiles, to survivor being a bit too skilled for this point of the game to be chased, to just better opportunities to pressure.
Tinkerer is mostly used by bots that wouldn't have this game sense without Tinkerbell telling them try and keep the game at a boring standstill. That's 95% of Tinkerer games. Rare is it used for just information with killers making reasonable decisions. I'd support its change simply because I find it ridiculous some killers lose with Ruin Undying Tinkerer and whatever on a good map because they played like an AOL AI. They should not have gotten a 0k, yet surprise surprise, Tinkerer creates crap killers that then whine that the game is unfair. It needs a fix.
Back on subject, nerf to Thrill was unnecessary. I'll try it anyway to see how Boons go, but there are still better totem perks.
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How is this 'woke'? Woke implies mediocre politics hamfisted by mediocre people with a 99% chance of having skeletons in their closet. This is just a bad business deal charged with greed and negligence. Nothing woke about being against it or the concept of boycott.
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What constitutes high level to you? Old Red Ranks? Competitive? Strong but non-comp SWF's? The fact that people could 4K 90% of their games with a killer like Legion just makes me roll my eyes at this survivor-sided claim. Some aspects of this game are survivor-sided, but as a whole? Hell no. At any point you can choose to tunnel/camp and stomp the majority of public match games. Or just down people quickly for the same effect, though some killers are indeed so ######### that it may not be an option. Luckily, bad killers like Trapper are getting buffed. Slowly.
The game is fundamentally unbalanced. But you know what? It doesn't stop people from stomping most of their games with crap killers like Legion or Pig. MMR makes this a bit harder, but they still 4k more than half their matches. So I do think killers deserve to be looked into just as much as survivors do. Just because you can't keep up doesn't mean killers that are actually high level in skill cannot.
Note, some people even won with Bubba against Team Oracle. There's more to it than just a select few killers that essentially stack so many advantages in their favour that even broken levels of teamwork (that isn't normal for public games) can't keep up with. And I'm fine with these being nerfed. Competitive is a joke. Very strong killers should teeter around A tier.
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@EntitySpawn said:
Environment chains shouldn't stop it but his personal chains should. It's his only defense at stopping you from solving it or his hunt would never activate. The only positive about him is that hunt and the 4v1.
Yeah, as I said, his M2 (his chain) should stop it. I fully agree with that. It's the chain hunt passive chains that really grind my gears.
@Maliken said:
Here's a tip for you, the chains spawn in bursts of three before there's a short period where they don't spawn. Wait until after the third one spawned and then start solving the box.
I did notice this, but it becomes horrid when sometimes a random one spawns anyway after that wave (happens from time to time), or Pinhead is running slowdown addons for the box, which exacerbates the issue. You DO manage to solve it, but it's just so unnecessary to have the passive chains halt the progress.
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- The Survivor decides to play perkless because it's fun and a challenge
- Killers start compulsively camping and tunnelling even when no gen gets done and they have four slowdown perks stacked.
- After ten games of the same awful slowdown builds and tunnel/camp, survivor is fed up and takes action
- DS to counter Tunnelling, Unbreakable to counter incessant slugging, BT to counter Camping, Iron Will to counter strong killers and Spirit in particular, Deliverance to get off the damn Hook. Dead Hard to make the most use out of your time when you're tunnelled.
- Killer wants to play some chill no-slowdown build. Constantly gets these disillusioned survivors and gets tired of getting little points and little progress.
- Killer adopts an overkill build and goes out of their way to just chase/camp one person to get back at survivors and feel less overwhelmed.
- The survivor decides to play perkless ...
It's all in your minds. This game has absolutely no value when it comes to winning. You get nothing. MMR is all a psychological phenomenon. People could just all play the same way they did before and the system wouldn't matter. But anyway, both sides fall victim to this hilarious sweat shitshow. At least when they become successful. Teetering in average MMR seems to get people of similar chill mindsets. But not always.
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Made by people who don't play the game, typical. It relies on way too much forcing and luck.
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@fitch said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2511608#Comment_2511608
Nurse need 500~1000 hours pratice, I think nerf nurse not fair to nurse main.
I mean I'm not sure why someone should ever care about people who waste this much time into one killer. Especially one that people learn so they can win every game except vs comp.
More than the top 3 are viable. You are not facing comp teams in public games. You can win most of the time with even mid-B tier comfortably if you take the time to learn them.
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@PeaceNGrease said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2510201#Comment_2510201
I'm using context from your own comment to come to a conclusion about your behavior. If you're the type of player to cal out tunneling as unnecessary across the board, or using it as a gauge for player skill, you're the type of player that isn't as concerned with one side of the game over another. You're whole comment was disingenuous from the start. You're just doubling down by claiming the best killers never or hardly use the tactic.
Whether you chose to engage with what I said or not matters very little to me, as I wasn't directly addressing you with all parts of the comment(which is where I believe your comment about me making indictments about the way you play came from). My point about survivor-favored players making these types of claims is just as true as it was 3-4 years ago. If you're the type to complain about it as a competitive strategy, if you're the type to acknowledge that at top levels, only nurse and Spirit are universally viable, and still sit there and shot on people who tunnel when necessary, you are literally showing your bias, and the discussion can end there.
If you're the type of player to call out tunnelling as unnecessary across the board ..
Let me correct you right here as you've already lied.
@DeliciousFood said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2509707#Comment_2509707
You're going to eat L's if your skill isn't sufficient to compete against the opponent. The fact of the matter is that good players that also stream have shown that tunnelling/camping early isn't necessary in most cases, and with MMR they rarely have to if they're running a decent build (Players like Otz end up struggling with meme builds sometimes). So it's quite clear that if you're not at the right skill level, you should expect to lose. But if your situation leads you to the perspective of 'I must tunnel to have a chance', chances are you're simply not as good as other killers who are comfortable at this level without these tactics. If you like to use this playstyle then that's fine, but if you don't, then it is best you let yourself adjust to a lower skill bracket. Better teams will always beat a tunnelling killer anyway unless they're some sort of comp player.
Here is my post that mentions necessity of tunnelling, allow me to quote the only element that may have a relation to your fabricated idea.
The fact of the matter is that good players that also stream have shown that tunnelling/camping early isn't necessary in most cases
So, since when is 'tunnelling/camping early' a broad claim? It refers to killers opting to use these strategies right off the bat rather than as a sort of reaction to their situation (Gens popping quick in bad map, no 3 gen, skilled team with weak link ...). This is pretty specific, and certainly doesn't cover reasons killers opt to tunnel when pressured.
Now that we've established you've, at the very least, used hyperbole to misrepresent me knowingly, I will say that we agree on the fact that tactics such as tunnelling have their place without necessarily being a sort of mindset like some have here. Camping endgame isn't some sweat tactic, nor is tunnelling when put in a position where it's the only game-saving move.
If we're allowed to make assumptions off one another, you've clearly given me the impression that you are part of this scourge that consistently divides survivors and killers as if they're two different species. The community would be infinitely better if individuals like you treated 'mains' as you'd call them with a bit more empathy, which ironically you call me out for lacking consideration for the other side.
Here's the sad truth for you: I'm a decent killer player, and when queues don't suck I play killer more often. And no, I do not need to tunnel early. And when I'm brought to tunnel, 4/5 times it's due to my own misplays. I do not deny there are balance issues and better players than me in the opposing side. But you know what? After 2k hours of this game and playing in the same goddamn maps for a long time, I think I'm capable of adapting and turning the tides despite some odds stacked against me.
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I had a survivor, an Ace, once let me hit him because I clearly got robbed due to the bug on a mistake he made. That genuinely changed my attitude toward this thing and I often let a Pinhead hit me if I felt like they had been robbed. But yeah, most people who could definitely abused it and it was infuriating.
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@BrokenSouI said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2510138#Comment_2510138
Oh,yes. Skill level. Let's pretend gen speeds arnt too fast. Let's pretend most maps arnt broken and unbalanced in one way or another
Gen speeds aren't the issue, the maps and RNG are an issue are however, that I can agree. But it doesn't stop the fact that matched with similarly skilled opponents, you should be at least performing decently. It takes a Haddonfield or Cowshed to truly feel oppressive.
@PeaceNGrease said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2510138#Comment_2510138
You and every survivor main that claims tunneling isn't necessary against top teams are full of it. There are several games where you can see OTZ tunnel, respond to unhooks in ways some would call tunneling, hell even camps occasionally.
You're still using the same old shaming tactics that don't work anymore. We have enough evidence from DBD tournaments (lol) where all the killers camp and tunnel because at a certain point that is the most effective way of ensuring at least a 2k amongst the BEST survivors. This is with them playing killers like Nurse and Spirit.
In high MMR, it may not always be necessary, obviously that isn't the case, but to talk about tunneling like it's, say Stretch Resolution (which you survivor-mostly players always find some BS way to defend) is a falsehood. It is a sometimes necessary tool, and people should stop trying to imply it as a skill-less action. It's no less skilled than anything regarding rushing gens with BNP, the only skill based interactions in this game are chase based.
Do you know who I am and what my gameplay habits truly are? Do you have some sort of insight about me that I certainly not shared willingly on here? If not, then you're just maliciously assuming things to denigrate my opinion. Which leads me to believe yours is probably nothing worth recognizing. Since you're comparing average games to tournaments and referencing Otz's sweaty streak habits that he apologized for often times during gameplay, then I guess I'm right to save my energy, lol.
To re-iterate my opinion from before, you're free to tunnel if you feel like that's your only option, but unless this is the top of the top, I'm convinced it's unnecessary with enough game sense and skill. Besides, as one poster said, the truly dangerous survivor groups punish tunnelling/camping like no other, and those without the skillset (and right killer) to face them will lose regardless.
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@BrokenSouI said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2509696#Comment_2509696
Do you seriously NOT see the issue with your logic ? "Dont sweat and eat Ls until you get worse players" What exactly sounds healthy gameplay wise...? Who wants to play a game where you go in expecting to lose ? Who wants to play a game where you go in knowing you have no shot...?
You're going to eat L's if your skill isn't sufficient to compete against the opponent. The fact of the matter is that good players that also stream have shown that tunnelling/camping early isn't necessary in most cases, and with MMR they rarely have to if they're running a decent build (Players like Otz end up struggling with meme builds sometimes). So it's quite clear that if you're not at the right skill level, you should expect to lose. But if your situation leads you to the perspective of 'I must tunnel to have a chance', chances are you're simply not as good as other killers who are comfortable at this level without these tactics. If you like to use this playstyle then that's fine, but if you don't, then it is best you let yourself adjust to a lower skill bracket. Better teams will always beat a tunnelling killer anyway unless they're some sort of comp player.
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@Miles said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2509572#Comment_2509572
k lets ignore all seeing blood for 5 minutes because i get that it should get nerfed.
considering shadow dance only works while cloaked, i seriously dont think it should get nerfed. it only becomes strong if you decide to combine it with another add on (the serpent) for a gimmick, which still, its a gimmick.
Shadow Dance doesn't truly have a drawback in my opinion. You're cloaked most of the game and baiting pallet drops is fairly easy with the crazy lunge you get. I honestly think this addon is a bit outdated and does the job of what other perks do (Brutal, Fire Up, Bamboozle to an extent) for absolutely free. I just think it can be made into something different and not necessarily weak. I don't want ######### billy/freddy addons as much as you don't.
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@R2k said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2509584#Comment_2509584
Because with current system u can basically afk every 2nd game to get some fun in next one and this is stupid.
You don't have to AFK. Just play how you enjoy instead of sweating unpleasantly, you'll eat L's but it's L's against teams you probably don't want to face anyway. You don't need to AFK, just play the way you find most fun.
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@VikingWilson said:
The average killer pretty much must tunnel someone down to start a semblance of a fair match. It's bonkers.
It's really not fun; killer is so hard now. Too hard for me, apparently (to get a jump on the "git gud" kids). I suppose bunk ass BHVR lost another killer.
I mean if you're not that good, why tunnel out people and artificially inflate your MMR? If you don't want to play like this, play like you did and you'll NORMALLY be adjusted to lesser-skilled teams that you can handle with your favoured playstyle. Although that's if MMR works, but I doubt many people are trying this approach.
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@Miles said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2508254#Comment_2508254
I seriously disagree about the add on pass, because firstly i fear he might get the billy treatment, and second of all none of his add ons are half as opressive as Freddy's were.
Huntress' was fine. I'd hope it's more like her's. I do not think Wraith's are fine, especially All-Seeing and Shadow Dance (there are perks that have lesser effects than that one addon). He could use some changes there but not a massive overhaul.
Freddy's only addons that truly sucked were the slowdown ones. About as much as I've mentioned here. But, I agree, his pass was terrible, but then again Freddy is a terribly designed killer overall.
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He's like Freddy before his addon pass. Horribly dull gameplay, accessible to every bad killer player since he doesn't need to loop or has addons that make pallets meaningless, free mega speed with a crazy lunge, no chase most of the time and less chase points due to cutting chase when cloaked, addons overall are just kind of silly and could use some tweaking with all-seeing being the worst. He's a dreadful public game stomper that is falling out of fashion now that MMR is making games less 'potato' fests.
For a bit he was the free win killer since his playstyle was 0 risk for massive reward vs. solo queue or casual friend groups. Not so much now. Even with the sweatiest builds, they falter. So I think Wraith only needs an addon pass now. Maybe focus more on the stealth rather than free zooming that makes distance meaningless vs him.
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Sometimes I get great teams. Sometimes I get the worst potatoes I've ever seen. Ever had a Hag with devour try to down you after an unhook and the Dwight just refuses to take a BT hit and instead competes against you for the nearby pallet? Which he then drops on me when I'm already downed and stuns the hag mid-cooldown. Such badness is exceptional.
MMR has been wild.
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I'm fine with a light penalty but I fully know that some of my friends are unfairly punished by it far too frequently because of issues stated above, which I haven't had myself but have witnessed them experiencing. Guaranteed the day the same people obsessively pushing for further punishment will be whining about it the day they start getting frequent problems, which will happen, because this is BHVR we're talking about.
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@Jasix said:
Grades.
First you belittle the rewards, but then you ask for the ability to get this tiny reward be made easier. Uhh ok? If it's such an inconsequential reward why focus on it so much? Why not focus on...oh I dunno.. having fun in the game?
They have already taken away the possibility of degrading - and you want to make iri grades the ultimate participation trophy? No thanks.
Because a lot of the fun is locked behind a massive grind that can be made easier with these sorts of bonuses. ESPECIALLY to those who have a life outside of gaming but still LOVE this game. The reward amounts to 4 killer games with BBQ, it is very much reasonable to call it small when devs bribe the playerbase with 300k over screwups. I'm not going to argue for a better reward because I ultimately think this is fine, but I think those that would benefit most from it could use a little help getting up there. These 'Grades' are now meaningless, they only show the amount of time spent playing.
And, the Iri Grade or whatever has always been the ultimate participation trophy. Nobody was particularly skilled or deserving for being there. I certainly wasn't when I started, lol. It meant nothing before, and it means nothing now. Maybe it does to you, or did, but not to me or others around me.
To address the removal of degrading - That's good and I fully recognize it. The issue really is that between five games you can get a wave of tunnellers/campers that annul your work and boom, back to more grinding in your limited time. Not even saying pipping should be free, just depipping not as easy to get in the current situation of the game. A rework of the emblem system would probably do wonders as Shaped has mentioned. I just think the survivor pipping is atrocious to deal with right now and the reward feels less worth it.
@Shaped said:
Regardless what others survivor emblems are bad and they should either revert them or rework them.
I have much easier time piping and even double piping as a killer. As a survivor sometimes it is fine but sometimes you get a series of games where you depip because you can't get 2 unhooks, heals, gens and long chase every single game. If you do others stay short.
It is like a jungle out there sometimes competing for unhooks and even farming teammates for pips.
Double pips are very very very rare compared to before in solo q. I don't even see decent surv streamers piping/double piping as often as before.
You make very solid points here. And I agree with killer grade advancement. The only issue is queue times since the MMR with killer lobbies. If that gets resolved and they're more like before, then yeah the pipping likely would be completely fine. Even against sweatlords you can safety pip fairly easily.
Also thanks for correcting the post!
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@Desh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2502641#Comment_2502641
Not going to bother arguing over whether or not DBD is competitive based on what you think is competitive. What I will say though is that DBD has competitive SWF teams that play and tourneys have taken place.
"..Essentially going out of you way to not allow someone to get points/play the game so you can win .."
These are your words on what a scumbag Killer is. So let's go over the list of examples you defended and see the similarities.
1. Flashlight saves deny a Killer points in the sacrificial category. This also extends the chases to an X amount of time which allows at LEAST 2 other survivors to continue repairing gens instead of pressuring them off.
2. Sabo of Hooks still denies Killer points in the sacrificial category. And like Flashlight saves, it only takes 1 other person to do it. It doesn't take an entire team to do a Flashlight save or Sabo save so idk what you're on about. This also extends chases once again and allows Survivors to repair as normal.
3. Doing an extremely long chase is definitely the fault of the Killer. HOWEVER, by your definition, it fits as being scummy because you're denying the Killer points in all categories and disallowing them to do any other function of the game. Especially when the entire team is able to maintain such long chases. Guess how you counter these teams though? Tunnel the strongest/weakest individual out of the game.
4. Players who bodyblock with MoM, Medkit with purple add-on, BT, etc. Are denying you the hook and may force you to do another long chase to get one of them. Once again, denying points.
5. Not going to argue with you on what you consider to be meta or not. However, Head-on, Flashbang, and other perks that purposefully waste your time and deny you points depending on the situation, especially when used to troll the player, fits your definition of scummy play.
Now let's take your attempted defenses for the Survivor and apply it to the Killer.
1. Killer tunnels only 1 Survivor: That's the Survivors fault for not being well hidden or skilled enough to run tiles against the Killer. On top of that, that means the other 3 Survivors won't be pressured off Gens and can easily rush to completion. They can also step in and prolong their chase by taking hits or body blocking.
2. Killer Camps: In the wise words of you, "Why aren't you celebrating?" That's AT LEAST 2 minutes of repairing gens, escaping cleansing totems that have been hindering you, etc. There have also been amazing plays pulled off, even when Killers have camped. Not including perks that COUNTER camping, both meta and non meta
3. Killer Slugs: No-Mither, Soul Guard, Unbreakable, etc. This is also considered a second chance instead of getting hooked because that means your time in game to play is even longer since you haven't been hooked yet. It also takes the same amount of time to heal someone off the ground who's healed up all the way as much as it takes to unhook someone.
TLDR;
If your answer is that the Killer should rejoice or its their fault when the Survivor(s) play by your definition of being a scumbag but not apply that to the Survivor(s) when the Killer plays by your definition, you're kinda biased and a hypocrite.
Okay for the competitive side. As I said, just because some people think it can be competitive doesn't make it a competitive game. The Dev's apathy toward it says plenty.
Alright this argument is getting very strawman-y, using one loose definition of mine and taking it very literally. At this point I feel like in one of these Anime forums where they discuss Vs. fights with the most minute of details.
-The killer respected the pallet! They've denied me 1000 boldness points! Absolutely scummy.
No, that is not what I meant and you know it. A better reference to my intention in the post would be: "all these strategies are specifically made to make sure one side CANNOT DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT and MAKES THEIR LIVES MISERABLE", now admittedly, 'makes their lives miserable' is very much an exaggeration. People can still have fun doing this and it's just a game. But let's not act like those that hard tunnel without being pressured to do so aren't doing it to engage the opposing side. We all know griefing is rampant in multiplayer games. Survivors can make the killer miserable, but the killer can just, you know, kill them. Unless they're outmatched. At this point the survivors are so much scummy as they're just scumbag people. So yeah, I do think bullying is scummy if it works, which is shouldn't if MMR is working.
Parenthesis aside, only three killers have powers that incentivize these three things as actual optimal gameplay: Pyramid Head for Tunnelling, Hag for Camping (Maybe Bubba but not really) and Twins for excessive slugging. The rest are purely decisions from the player. Nothing is compelling them to do this nor does their base kit truly incentivizes this approach over regular chasing and pressure spreading. Some MIGHT be stronger by being territorial, but it's almost always player choice, which is where the scummy remark comes. And, to be clear, this isn't me telling people to stop. They do whatever they want.
I did forget to add that SWF's with all BNP's do give off a very 'scummy' feeling. Anything that gives an overwhelming edge versus the other side with no effort gives me this vibe, personally. I feel the same over map offerings that are particularly mean. Note that these things I've mentioned have little bearing to BP gain or playing the game. They just suck and show some degree of malicious intent from one side.
I appreciate the discussion, but I draw the line with strawmen. Good day, fellow forum-goer.
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Twins is one of the few killers that can do well without a single gen-slowdown perk. Maybe give yourself corrupt to handle the worst maps, but otherwise the best you'll ever want is sloppy, and it's not to slow them down but to keep them injured. I'm not sure why you'd consider them weak, they're at the same level as Hag and require the same amount of asinine gameplay to thrive. They're at the top of A with the trap #########. Why? Because nothing can actually stop Victor from hitting people, and he can also end a game the same way Oni does with a small amount of setup.
Sending Victor out at the start to get an initial hit is actually a play that you need to decide. It is what makes Twins potentially better than Oni at snowballing, as they are not actually an M1 killer the whole time until they get a hit. If you do decide to attach Victor, you will more often than not go and chase someone else. Why? Because now you have two people who can't do gens, maybe even three if they both stacked on a gen, which is why the underrated perk, Discordance, can help plenty. But at minimum, you now have two people pressured if you took this route, and let's not forget the information Victor gives you as the Pepega kidnapper passes by his teammates.
What then? Well, let's say you do injure the next survivor, by then you can recall Victor. Here you can snowball already. Down the guy you're chasing with Victor. If you're good, this shouldn't be hard, nothing can stop big V with enough practice. Then send Vic out to either down the other injured to attach to someone else. Now you have either:
-One down, one unable to do anything, and one that has to go save with one of them injured (that isn't bound by victor) making way for a potential trade.
-Two down, potentially a third person to be latched onto, or Victor keeping watch to keep your slug in check.
This isn't some unique, 'everything aligns' scenario. This is a common way Twins games go, especially against less coordinated teams. This should also work against coordinated, but you may want to be careful whether you down someone close to another survivor or not. It could be better to injured the nearby survivor and just add potential snowball and chaos. Just be sure to not let them reset too easily, hence the use of Sloppy.
I know the thread is about gen speeds and using less meta builds, but I'm essentially explaining why Twins, with their own kit, can destroys games without a single ounce of slowdown because of their high snowball potential. It's like Oni. You don't really need slowdown if you can end the game in one use of your power. Although the skill requirement does end up higher, and there will be games you'll lose anyway. That's DBD. I hope you continue to have fun with this Off-meta endeavour of yours!
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@Desh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2502469#Comment_2502469
The game is competitive because you're put against an opponet(s) with the objective to make the other side lose (Escape/Die) and you gain value based on it.
The only time it doesn't become competitive since no value is gained is Kill Your Friends which are custom games, and even then it can get competitive since the goal is to still Escape/Kill.
With all that said, how does a Survivor play to YOUR definition of "scumbag"?
Flashlight Saves
Sabotaging Hooks
Running the Killer for 3-5 gens
Body blocking in certain situations such as DS and BT
Head-on/DS/Flashbang in any order or remove
Based on your definition, this applies. And there are more examples.
I fully disagree that it's competitive. You can have a competitive attitude toward it, but there are no WIN CONDITIONS determined by the game itself. You can have a 0k and still Brutal killer. You can get 2 kills and still Pip. I mean at this point you can call Among Us competitive with such a loose definition. Doesn't actually make it a competitive game anyone would seriously agree with beyond semantics in a forum argument.
Now for survivor scumbag discussion:
-Flashlight saves are not scummy. They can be annoying but they offer two advantages to a killer: The first being they aren't doing gens, so no Gen-rush whining allowed. The second is that they are predictable and can give you free pressure, sometimes even two downs at the same time. For how 'scummy' it is, it's ludicrously killer-sided. This changes if the survivors are more skilful than you.
-Sabotage by itself isn't scummy, they're once again not doing gens and putting themselves at risk, especially if you drop. I will agree on one thing: Full-sabo squads are scummy and asinine. Luckily they're one in a hundred, unlike the hard tunnelling killer that's easily one in two games. But, in this VERY SPECIFIC fully dedicated team? Oh yeah. Hooking becomes sometimes impossible and you can barely play the game.
-It is only the killer's fault for being run this long. Either by lacking skill or by making bad calls. The survivor is by no means scummy for playing the chasing game and the others doing the objective. It happens you get gens popping fast but that's a flaw in game design and map RNG.
-BT bodyblocking can be punished by slugging the bodyblocker. You may be forced to just slug but that's, once again, someone not doing gens. And often times leads to two slugs if you've properly hooked someone in a deadzone. DS can't be abused nearly as much anymore, I never eat it unless I'm genuinely tunnelling.
-Meme perks not counting DS. So they traded some meta perks for flashbang or even better, removed an exhaustion for head-on. Why aren't you celebrating? This is the reverse of scummy, the survivors are running a more fun build. If you feel bullied by a head-on gang, remember that they can't press e to outplay, making chases easier for you. Absolutely no scum here, and you can easily counter these with literally paying attention.
One thing that is scummy is playing immersed to hold the game hostage, but that's actually a bannable offense, so hey, report that #########.
When killers decide to be scumbags, what can the SURVIVOR actually do? Nothing. Camped? Game's over. Tunnelled? Game's over, you're either going to run that idiot all game or die without getting to do other things. Slugged all game? Game's over unless you have soul guard. Note that all these strategies are specifically made to make sure one side CANNOT DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT and MAKES THEIR LIVES MISERABLE. That is scummy. And the only thing I'd equate it to are sabotage squads. The rest on your list? Easily handled. And I'm not saying these strats aren't valid. People just act like they're not asinine. They are.
I don't consider using perks scummy whatsoever. I do find combos like Ruin/Undying/Tinkerer as bad as DS/UB/BT/DH, but they're part of the game. I hate them but nobody is inherently scummy for running them. I will make fun of them if they fail despite those however, lmao. And it'd be fair game if they did that to me.
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@Desh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2502379#Comment_2502379
MMR treats it as competitive, not casual.
If it was a casual party game, Survivors wouldn't be playing the equivalent of "scumbags" either as you call it.
You can put MMR on anything, its existence doesn't make the game competitive. It's an asymmetrical, openly unbalanced game that completely breaks at the highest level. No competitive game becomes a clown fiesta when the top of the top are brought to play. It's casual, people want it to be competitive so they feel better about themselves stomping the weaker opponent, and then complain about imbalances when they don't.
What are survivors doing that's scummy? Please do not say being toxic. That's everywhere. Would you say Gens before frens? Maybe, but that's something you can pretty easily counter. Perk abuse? Such as DS, UB, BT, etc? Well, these are also made to counter killers when they decide to be 'scummy'. It becomes a vicious cycle, but ultimately the killer is the one to decide if there's scum. The only perk I'll say is problematic is DH, but that's not scummy, just a way too good perk.
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@chargernick85 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2502385#Comment_2502385
The more survivors that kick a tunneling killers ass will hopefully get the amount of them down.
LOL just kidding there are too many feeding them kills elsewhere. I got face camped by Bubba last night...Want to guess what my solo team did? If you answer is "Crank the gens and leave" you ######### wrong.
This is why you team up with people of your level. Most killers are garbage at this game and only carried by these sorts of teams. That or your friends want to have fun, because these killers are just so mediocre, they literally give no gameplay to the rest of the team. Both are fine. As I said, killer ends up whining about Gen Rush or something, when half the members were trying to do stupid flashlights or get chests.
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Yeah, just did the other night. The strength of our team was that everyone could hold their own, so we won most of the time while some people still dicked around. Killers who tried to tunnel/camp still got their asses handed to them, often with a 0k, because as usual, these sweaty strategies don't work against a group of good players. But they do it anyway to make people miserable, because fragile egos.
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@Desh said:
And how are Killers playing like scumbags exactly?
Choosing to hard tunnel and camp no matter the circumstances. Essentially going out of you way to not allow someone to get points/play the game so you can win at some casual party game most killers seemed to be terrified of losing at. Nobody is saying it isn't legit.
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Massive amounts of hard tunnelling and camping at higher MMR. Some of it because the killer can't keep up, some of it because it's the only strategy they have left, some of it because they're just dicks. But it's even more common now, so DS is a good way to at least punish the killer for it.
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"Just do bones."
Another slogan parroted by people who don't realize this is inconsequential to the survivors that actually scare paranoid killers. Once again, this issue crushes solos who are not equipped for the same garbage every time. It's silly to expect people to always run a totem perk because of how killers are terrified of losing. I want to play different builds, and I'm completely bored of running totem perks when there are so many other perks to play with. And I cannot expect my teammates to feel responsible enough to do totem work in solo queue, that's not how it works. But, it's as others said, Ruin Undying itself isn't the issue, it's with Tinkerer that it becomes obnoxious and carries idiots way too much.
Killers should learn to wean themselves off slowdown, IMO. Or start using less if they're with characters they play less. I'm learning trickster and I'm sticking to Corrupt and Pop. Corrupt to make awful maps less awful, and Pop to reward me for getting better at the killer. And, surprise surprise, it's usually more than enough. But, as always, people are just downright terrified of losing as Killer, so they'll go overkill each time and whine when it doesn't work, calling the other side entitled or Overpowered. ######### please, you ran Ruin/Undying/Tinkerer Blight on McMillan and still lost. Unless it was a comp team or it was your third ever game as the killer, you probably aren't that good.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2500974#Comment_2500974
Yes, it must be a me issue...
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What is this supposed to communicate? That you've faced a handful of bad killers? As I said, they're pretty common, especially around here. Besides, when MMR hit, teams of solos were stronger for a time and the boosted killers ended up incapable of keeping up without their mismatched solos to stomp. If anything, this could just be what you've experienced.
Or you know, most killers are just bad. And I'm saying this with confidence because I am very much average (maybe above average with my dedicated favourite killers) and I still win most of my public match games, because most are solos or casual SWF's. Admittedly some solo teams can be very good. That much is true. But does the game become survivor-sided? No. The killer still has the advantage of an uncoordinated, hook-competing team. The only two real problems are: RNG in the game design (especially maps) and below average player skill.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2500941#Comment_2500941
Hahaha NO!
This couldn´t be further from the truth.
Even solos are stronger than killers.
If you're a terrible killer, which a lot of people here are, then you're right. Otherwise, no. Killers have gotten used to stomping solos that now with some better opponents, they start feeling 'oppressed'. They already felt like the 'victims' when they got a SWF every so game, basing all their grievances over that one experience and forgetting the mega stomps they did beforehand. Like how people tend to remember the bad and not the good.
If the game feels survivor-sided to you even with solos, then I think it becomes a YOU issue.
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Engineer's Guild is also bugged. They literally don't quality check anything, even their licensed content.
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People will still DC. Salt and rage will always trump rationality. Stop thinking this will work unless it's like an hour long, which in turn will punish victims of this game's shortcomings more than the little turds it's made for. And most of them will just suicide on hook or sabotage the game if they can't DC as a form of lashing out.
Your idea is bad and you can still do the fun part of the game (chasing) with dc's. Only killers that play like absolutely wastemen and survivors that love to hold M1 care this much about the DC penalty.
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It's oddly common and I don't want to consider it a coincidence. Even if it is unlucky, I don't think it should be a thing. It's already bad that this game is full of RNG. Adding another layer you can't do anything about it just atrocious and sours the experience, especially with the lack of warning beyond the jingle happening the moment you leave. Absolutely scuffed.