Crowman
Crowman
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- Crowman
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@dangersmymidd1ename said:
Windows does only 1 thing, how could they even nerf it? I'd say be glad that's all it does.
It used to go on Cooldown after vaulting. Then they changed it to scale aura reading distance and made it always on. The core issue with WoO is that it is always on and the solution is to make it so that it has moments where it is not active.
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@Oputeev_Stas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4103430#Comment_4103430
If they wanna nerf it to 2s then it should activate on E button like with Drama at least and not through shift button
Then use Drama then if you want to have a speed boost on a button press. The point of nerfing Sprint Burst is to lessen the perk as the default best option to use. Buffing it this way would not accomplish the goal.
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Sprint Burst has been one of the strongest exhaustion perks for pretty much the entire game's life. Dead Hard was nerfed years ago when it held the crown.
If people want the game to be less stale and not just see the same handful of perks all the time, then we need to actually nerf perks that have been seeing the same high usage for years.
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Killer whose powers require the survivor to interact with something to negate it tend to have skewed Kill Rates across the board. The vast majority of casual survivor players just struggle to deal with global slowdown. Meanwhile coordinate players are in a much better spot to abuse this built in counters to make it much harder for the killer to succeed.
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Survivor is a role with 4x the number of players and therefore there are far more survivor only players who want killers to be nerfed into the ground so they can escape easily around the forums that downvote anything positive regarding killers.
I've largely found it's a waste of time to have reasonable discussions from the killer pov on the forum.
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Bloodlust 3 only kicks in after 35 seconds of the killer not using their power and not kicking pallets. If the killer is doing all that without getting a hit on a survivor, then Bloodlust 3 is not really a concern for the survivor team. The only way this would reward playing poorly is if the remaining survivors were not doing gens. In which case, chase time becomes irrelevant because the issue is the survivors not doing their objective while having no pressure put on them.
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The devs kind of just let weak killers rot which results in you needing to put much more effort to get the same mileage. If you just want to play casually, then of course your best option will be to play the strongest killers.
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There's no benefit to spreading hooks and generator speeds and pallet density make it difficult for many killers. No surprise you'll see a lot of killer players employ tactics that allow them to secure kills.
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This is pretty much one of the biggest double standards in the game. There's no reason to not let killers abandon in the end game. The whole point of the system was to save wasted time and being forced to push survivors out because they want to waste your time perfectly justifies letting killers abandon here.
Either the system allows both sides to jump out of matches that will waste their time or neither side gets to abandon.
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@KingOfGhost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099035#Comment_4099035
The problem with creating a soft lock against tunneling is that it would not work. As you said, the advantage of turning the match into a 1v3 is simply too significant.
There are only two realistic ways to change the tunneling mindset. The first is to punish tunneling as much as possible. However, the 9.2 and 9.3 PTBs showed that this approach does not work well, because survivors can weaponize those systems and make the game frustrating for killers.
The second option is to give killers stronger rewards for hooking different survivors. This could include additional Bloodpoints, such as 2,000 Bloodpoints for each unique “golden hook,” or killer-specific benefits similar to what the developers attempted in the 9.2 PTB.
Obviously, the second option is better, but it would require a lot of development time and effort. The developers are unlikely to invest that much work into it, so there is no simple way to create an effective soft lock against tunneling.
The thing with tunneling is that it will always exist as long as the eventual result is the survivor dies. We can do things like add protections to survivors to help them off hook and give killers bonuses to unique hooks so they are rewarded for not chasing the same target repeatedly. But the community at large just needs to recognize that tunneling is just a part of the game.
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@vol4r said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099069#Comment_4099069
So you basically didn't read my topic and commneting.
My idea was to let whole lobby have killers banned, not every player.
How would a lobby of survivors declare bans if they a killer is already in the lobby? If they ban the killer they are already matched with what then? In this situation you would still create longer queues, because you would first match 4 survivors up then have them declare killer bans, then the system would try to grab a valid killer from the pool knowing that less popular killers are less likely to be banned in the first place.
There is simply no benefit to increasing queue times for this.
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I do not need proof to know that queue times will explode if we allow killer bans. Killers are forced to queue up as the killer of their choice, they cannot switch killers after queueing up. Killers do not have equal playrates, some killers are far more popular than others and survivors in the lobby will be affected by choices made by the other survivor.
So if you don't ban facing Nurse, but at least 1 other survivor in the lobby you are in does, then the game would not match your lobby up with a killer queueing as Nurse. Not to mention any time a new killer releases and survivors ban facing the new killer.
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A couple things.
- This will not only increase queue times for people trying to play the strongest killers. This will make the queue times longer for everyone, because no the system has to find a killer that all 4 survivors in the lobby have not banned.
- Survivors will still find a reason to DC even if they ban going against a few killers.
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BHVR should honestly just remove all killer specific anti-camp features. It only makes the killer feel worse while doing very little against camping that the basekit feature allowing survivors to unhook themselves doesn't already do. There's no reason to have both.
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BHVR hasn't really shown over the years that they really play their own game. They likely hop in on a dev enviroment to test the stuff they worked on between the devs just to make sure it works as intended, but they clearly do not consider edge cases. Plus the devs in recent years have really shown their bias towards survivor so it's hard to imagine that the devs really consider issues of the killer side when they do development.
Also there is the consultant program that from what I've heard they do not really utilize in any meaningful way.
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We already have cosmetic collections with Attack on Titan and we have a few with bands. We're getting scooby doo. DBD is already past the point of becoming fortnite.
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Bhvr really wants to increase the grind bc data likely says that the longer the grind the longer people play.
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@HexSlugged said:
i think i saw somewhere though i cont remember if this is real that the devs said it wasnt supposed to be working in chase anyways, that wasnt the design intention of it so i wouldnt say its a nerf so much as fixing the perk
It really doesn't surprise me that BHVR made a perk with a specific intention and then never bothered to test if it could be used in any other manner outside their intention. I would say a lot of issues of balance with DBD are a result of the devs failing to consider use cases outside of what they intend.
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@esarraf said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095876#Comment_4095876
You… do know that iron grasp and agitation exist right? I'm not trying to be insulting but this is literally day one information. AGITATION IS A TRAPPER PERK! Seriously you can't possibly be this new right?
If a killer dedicates at least half their build to bringing survivors to basement, then they can get survivors into basement. The cost is that the killer is lacking perks that do anything when they are not carrying a survivor to basement.
Basement Trapper can pretty much guarantee a kill, but securing 1 kill isn't unique to Trapper either. The other 3 survivors can just rush gens and leave. It's not difficult to figure out the killer is Trapper and noticing a survivor was hooked in basement in solo queue.
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@dark_hunter92 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095427#Comment_4095427
I mean, I believe you that the DC rate goes up when penalties are off. That is probably true.
But that kind of misses the point people are making. Nobody is really saying “remove the penalty and everything will be better.” The issue is why so many people feel like DCing in the first place.
Like okay, penalties make people stay in the match more often. Does that mean the match is suddenly fun? Does that mean the solo survivor who had two teammates DC is having a better time because now they are stuck with bots? Does it mean the killer in a 15 minute sweatfest against a coordinated group is suddenly enjoying themselves because they have a cooldown hanging over their head?
I am not saying people should just be allowed to DC every time they get downed first or do not like the killer. Obviously that would make matches worse. But acting like the penalty being statistically effective means the system is fine is a gross oversimplification.
The penalty might lower the number of disconnects, but it does not fix the reasons people are disconnecting. It just punishes people for getting to that point.
And honestly, stats alone are not enough for a game like DbD. You can look at DC rates, kill rates, escape rates, whatever. But those stats do not tell you how a match actually felt. They do not tell you if someone got tunneled out at 5 gens, got left with two bots, spent most of the match slugged, or had to deal with a coordinated team making the game miserable even if they still lost.
So yeah, penalties are probably necessary. But that does not mean the current system is good, or that it should be the end of the conversation. The real question is what is making people want out of matches so badly that a cooldown is the only thing keeping them there.
There is no singular reason that people d/c and I wouldn't want to see the game be balanced over people who rage quit.
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I feel this is a lot of rose tinted glasses. Slugging for the 4K has been a thing longer than the final survivor mori. I remember old hatch standoffs where killer and survivor would stare each other down at an open hatch, because the killer needed the grab and the survivor needed to wait for the killer to swing. Since there was no match timeout, this could go on forever.
If you truly wanted to remove slug for 4K situation, you would need for the game to auto-sacrifice survivors when there is only 1 survivor left standing and force the game into a final faceoff state where the game is basically a 1v1. Survivor outlasts the Killer, they escape. Killer catches the survivor, they die.
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@Cornil said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4095434#Comment_4095434
And I prefer to play my team based game with real people and not bots, it goes both ways. Don't know why I should be forced to play a heavily losing match to potentially an excruciating length just because an entitled teammate decided he'd rather go make a sandwich during his disconnect cooldown than to play the rest of the match out. I've had teammates DC numerous of times in a match that we were actually winning in, and manage to escape or get very close to it even with a single bot. Two bots though, the game is just over. There really might as well be an abandon option for that.
Also if I'm playing killer I'd honestly rather play against bots than players who are just giving up and refusing to play, but maybe that's just me. If you really don't like playing against bots and getting the free BP, then there's an abandon option currently active if the survivors are all bots.
It's BHVR's fault for not punishing players who grief matches because they can't d/c. Doesn't change that the d/c penalty is needed.
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Winstreaks are really not an accurate measure of a killer being broken given that the definition of a winstreak is up to the person doing it. On top of that, matchmaking is more often the main factor by creating these mismatched lobbies.
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BHVR treats Bloodpoints as some sort of premium currency they can't risk giving away too much of. Likely because the grind being longer means people will play the game longer and buy cosmetics.
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@Mr_bowtiedttv said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4093663#Comment_4093663
All we can do is hope. and if we don't give constructive critic then, they won't change anything
The community has given behavior plenty of constructive criticism over the years and they still put out this event. And given how past events have gone we won't see any changes to how the event functions outside of maybe a couple of minor number adjustments.
BHVR has consultants that they appear to not utilize.
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@ChurchofPig said:
So many people are just giving up in my matches I've had the opposite experience, which is so weird because based on what I've heard people say and how it sounds on paper, I shouldn't have that issue, like is my mmr really that low and not being helped by this happening? (At least for survivor, idk about killer)
are we talking about survivors giving up bc that's been an ongoing issue for years despite how strong survivors are.
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The event feels like it was designed by first thinking of cool things they could give to survivors then realizing last minute that killer needed something special in the event.
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@MorelClaudette said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4092800#Comment_4092800
The comparison is not ideal.
The better comparison would be a Spirit whose phasewalk is indefinitely as well. So she just stays in phasewalk, zooms around the map and only jumps "into reality" when she definitely can hit or grab you.
You can definitely question the particular design choice.
You just described what Wraith does. Indefinite duration of the power is far from being the issue with Jason. Xenomorph can also stay inside his tunnels forever too.
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Omnipresent Evil is basically just Wraith Cloak. There's no reason Jason needs to be limited while in Omnipresent Evil.
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@Kupega said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4092127#Comment_4092127
i'm aware, there is still another PTB due between now and the one for the Judgement however that won't have a new killer so balance changes will come then
The Year 10 Roadmap shows chapters in July and September. The next PTB has 2 survivors for a license chapter. There's no reason to expect this next ptb will have balance changes.
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Jason being Omnipresent is no difference than Wraith being cloaked. There's no reason to limit how long he can be in his power.
We do not need to push unnecessary nerfs on to killers for survivors refusing to interact with the game.
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It's really no different than Wraith being cloaked indefinitely.
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It's probably not the band doing it as much as the record label using the auto id feature to copyright strike music. Considering the song isn't officially out yet. Most of this stuff is usually just automated.
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Slugging is a way killers can build up pressure outside of hooks and is often needed when there isn't enough time to pick up a survivor and hook them or survivors are threatening a save with pallet or flashlight.
Teabagging serves no purpose besides to intentional upset the other side.
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I firmly believe that no killer should have built in anti-camp to their power. We already have a basekit anti-camp if killers stick around the hook allowing the survivor to unhook themselves. There's no need to double dip.
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A big part of the problem is that BHVR doesn't really play killer. We've seen the current dev team talk on live stream and they make it very clear they have a bias towards survivor.
My personal opinion is that both killer and survivor are some of the worst pain points in this game's history. Solo survivor can be practically unplayable because too many survivors give up at the slightest inconvenience. Killer gams are often either boring because survivors give up instantly or aggravating because the survivors who don't give up know how to utilize all the resources available to them.
The game being as fast paced as it is just leads to both sides rushing their only objective which isn't fun to face.
There's a lot of areas the devs need to do overhauls to improve gameplay for both sides, but not only do the devs take months to put out small adjustments but I can't see them committing to massive gameplay overhauls. Even the poorly thought anti-camp/tunnel/slugging changes where just bandaid fixes that didn't try to change up gameplay mechanics.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4085130#Comment_4085130
it's called not being a wuss and just hook. hatch exists precisely to just end these kinds of standoffs but naturally it's the killer who has the problem and somehow twists it into thinking that the hatch is the reason they are stalling the match out.
heck, I usually don't mind dying. If I were against, say, a Pinhead I'd be more than happy to solve the box and let him take me if this were a respectful community. But all I'll get for the trouble is a slugging so you may as well play it safe and if they start slugging, drag it out
People play to win and this is true for both sides and the best way to win is to reduce rng odds. Killers have no reason to not slug to avoid hatch spawn. There is no benefit to letting hatch spawn. It's up to the devs to create a more interesting 1v1 finale mechanic which I doubt they'll do. So we'll be stuck with the poor current hatch implementation that incentivizes slugging.
There's no reason to shame players for playing the way that is most optimal for their role.
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As long as hatch is an rng escape mechanic, the best play for killers will be to slug.
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This is the outcome of the devs giving survivors a lot of a safety over the years. It's too risky for killers to spread hooks and there's no reward for spreading hooks. Therefore it just makes sense to focus out the weak links ASAP because pressuring 2 or 3 survivors is much easier than 4.
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You're looking to wait around a year since Diminishing Returns was released, because BHVR works slow. I do not know how this is a surprise to people after 10 years of BHVR being very slow to change things.
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BHVR plans things about a year out. Diminishing returns wasn't planned with any balance changes on its own and therefore we will likely have to wait about a year since Diminishing returns (end of this year) for BHVR to collect data and make adjustments.
I also wouldn't get your hopes up on it being large adjustments either.
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Better tutorials wouldn't solve anything. BHVR has been catering to the survivor players who refuse to get good at the game.
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@random1543 said:
Question to people who do not like the elusive effect / this perk, would you be ok with the perk if it was just pools of blood and scratch marks and not the elusive effect?
I don't think just reducing the amount of stealth effects will fix the perk. Fundamentally the perk is just way too accessible and invalidates any stealth perk that does the same thing. Like this would still be an objectively better Lucky Break.
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Cross Examination is likely the most broken survivor perk they've released and BHVR has released some really broken survivor perks over the years. It basically allows survivors to break any chase they want unless they are facing a ranged killer or a killer who is undetectable.
Elusive as a status also does way too much imo and it would be better if it was split into individual statuses like 1 that blocks sounds of pain, 1 that blocks scratch marks, and 1 that blocks auras. I do not think survivors should have the ability to block killer instinct which Elusive also does.
And the fact the perk went to ptb in its current form is very telling about how well the devs understand their own game.
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I don't think he's a sidegrade to Springtrap. I'm certain he's stronger than Springtrap and has a lot more tools to handle matches. I still don't think he needs nerfs (or buffs) coming off the ptb. I think he's in a good spot where he could go live and see how he fares. There's nothing obviously problematic about his kit that I don't think he needs to be touched.
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@Lexilogo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4082645#Comment_4082645
It's not a difficult thing to do, but to play devil's advocate there have been times small numbers buffs have backfired, like in Hex: Thrill of the Hunt's case. And the Doctor thing was the inverse, people got mad that they were such conservative numbers changes.
I still agree and think they should do small numbers changes, but there are more risks to doing it than just the technical side, which is obviously dirt easy with just changing variables.
Anyway as for the OP, I do agree. For experienced players, balance updates ARE content patches! If a Perk is so obviously bad I've never even tried using it or barely ever see it in games, a buff that makes it usable is essentially adding new content to the game.
If BHVR was doing more frequent patches where they pushed some number changes, then the accidental overbuff situation wouldn't be a problem. Because then BHVR would just nerf it a week or two later. With constant number adjustments, the game would hopefully feel less stale because we might actually see the meta changed from the same perks that have been in the game for years now.
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I think it's unfair to say the new pallet resetting perk has no real downside. Blocking the resetted pallet for 60 seconds is pretty big in chase and since the pallet is resetted the killer has a direct line to keep following you since the 15% haste only neutralizes the killer gaining distance if they are 115%. Many dash killers certainly won't have trouble following right behind you with the now resetted pallet.
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@Xray said:
We are WAY beyond Perk bloat. Thats why Five Moves Ahead exists even though Windows does pretty much the same thing, they are running out of ideas for perks so they make perks that are a carbon copy of another perk but with a little bonus added to it. They either lack the courage and creativity to make up new ideas or they are just fine with most of the new ones being mediocre and keeping the meta stale.
My belief is that the devs just don't have much design space to work with. Over 10 years of content and adding new perks, there's not much to explore with DBD's limited points of interaction that hasn't been done already. Since BHVR avoids changing up the game's formula, there's not much new that could be done.
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Downvotes really don't mean anything and simply you shouldn't care about them. Though what might help if you actually stated why you think this perk is too strong.
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Given that BHVR plans things out 1 year at a time, I wouldn't expect to see perk changes based on diminishing returns until the end of the year.