Crowman
Crowman
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You are playing the role of the killer. Most people are going to try to kill all 4 survivors not just aim for a 3K. It doesn't matter if BHVR states that a 3K is a win. People will still play to kill all 4. The only way to actually fix the issue you are identifying is to change the game so that the reason killers slug for the 4K. That reason is how hatch currently functions.
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If you want killers to slug less for 4Ks, then you need to make changes around hatch which is the reason slugging for the 4K exists.
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The EMPs are in a good spot. On release they were too overbearing since they would passively fully charge and it cost survivors practically nothing to use them. The added slowdown when using, preventing EMPs from fully printing passively, and reduction of printers made them much more manageable.
Singularity is also the one killer whose power is strong enough to warrant a strong counter in the EMPs.
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You just need to actually learn the tiles that spawn. Most tiles even between realms are quite similar to each other. Most maps have a unique structure that you need to learn.
Windows being used as a crutch to avoid learning the game is a problem.
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Shatter Hope is a perk that solely exists to be a hard counter to boons. It was a bandaid fix when Circle of Healing was running wild. BHVR should have changed how boons mechanically worked so that boons were not cursed to be low power and generally not worth bringing. But instead they added Shattered Hope and eventually nerfed CoH.
Personally, I would rather killers basekit destroy boon totems, remove Shattered Hope, and readjust the power of boons now that they can't be infinitely used.
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I know you're not talking about the exposed to broken change, but it's not a sidegrade. Exposed is not visible on the killer UI and many killers do not benefit from exposed survivors because they rely on M2s. This meant that in many situations the downside of StB didn't matter. Now killers will see the survivor become broken on the UI when the perk is used so they know it is in play and can actually play around it. Plus survivors being broken is mostly equally useful on all killers.
That said I fully agree with the idea of survivor perks deactivating other perks. I know for the longest time people were suggesting that DS turns off when the killer downs another survivor and I was always against that idea for a similar reason. Your survivor perks shouldn't be turned off by the actions of other survivors.
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@LucasMS said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117610#Comment_4117610
If we're talking about high-MMR usage, why weren't other perks like Pain Resonance, which has a nearly 30% pick rate and was recently revealed as the most-used Killer perk across all regions, or other regression perks, affected by these changes? This nerf was just an arbitrary, mandatory decision on their part; you know that WoO doesn't impact matches anywhere near the extent that other perks do. You can't even really tell if a Survivor has Windows of Opportunity equipped until the post-game screen because it doesn't directly impact the Killer's gameplay, there's a huge difference between finding resources and knowing how to use them.
Because you're comparing apples to oranges here. Plus it is unfair to say that Pain Res didn't get nerfed at all. Dead Man's Switch got a heavy nerf that removes the synergy between the two perks.
Pain Res has seen several nerfs over the years and one of the reasons it is still used today is that killers do not have many good options for gen regression. You would see that in the killer perk updates the devs are buffing other options for gen regression.
Meanwhile WoO completely crowds out design space for aura reading of windows and pallets because it's always on.
The point of this update is for a meta shakeup. In order for WoO to be substituted with other options, it needs to do less. In order for killers to substitute pain res with other options, there needs to be better alternatives. And with the removal of working with Dead Man's there will be reason to consider other options.
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@Leo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117585#Comment_4117585
I would need to see footage to know if this would work as a time saver. Like, does the auto mend pause your timer so you're able to hop on a gen or do you need to keep sprinting for those thirty seconds? The description doesn't elaborate.
Just based on the description, the philosophy of this design seems to be Endurance chaining. You run one Endurance perk like the ones you listed (or use unhook Endurance) and then Dead Hard for a second hit. You could bring Mettle of Man as the fourth perk to get value from making those two hits protection hits, but I still think the main draw is getting multiple Endurance hits.Deep wounds last 20 seconds, is paused while running/mending, and it takes 10 seconds to mend. BT at T3 is 30 second of auto mending.
In order to be put into Deep Wounds means the killer would have to hit you first and likely you are in the process of running. So in the situation where the killer hits you off hook and you run off, you can just hop on a gen and start working on it and you'll likely finish auto mending before you go down.
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@LucasMS said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117587#Comment_4117587
Ironically, the survivors who are already highly skilled are the ones who benefit the least from this perk. Experienced and competitive teams are already communicating which pallets have been used, so they don't really need the additional information.
The perk's real value has always been for the players who struggle more: solo queue survivors, newer players, and those still learning the game. In other words, it was helping exactly the group of players who needed that extra assistance the most.
Because of that, I don't think the Devs should look at its high pick rate and assume that something went wrong with the balance. If anything, the popularity of this perk demonstrates that it was addressing a genuine problem within DBD. It helped reduce one of the game's oldest issues: the huge difference in the learning curve between killers and survivors. Its high usage is much more a sign of how useful it was for the players who needed it than evidence that the perk was inherently too strong.
If this was the case, the perk wouldn't have high usage in high mmr. It does have high usage in MMR. Knowing where resources are in chase is huge and something that veteran players will utilize far better than new players. The perk deserves it nerf, because it needs to be bought down so we can hopefully have a more diverse perk meta.
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WoO isn't a new player perk. It is one of the most used perks across MMR bands. It pretty much removes thinking while in chase for veteran players. The perk deserves the nerf it is getting.
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@Leo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117551#Comment_4117551
Legion, Ghoul, and Deathslinger should not interact with new Borrowed Time because you need to gain Deep Wounds while you have Endurance in order for it to activate. Those powers don't give Survivors Endurance, it just puts them into Deep Wounds.
I missed the whole "while having endurance". That is my bad. I don't think it really changes much about the rest of my point. I think the concept of the perk is interesting, but unless survivors have more tools to give themselves endurance the perk doesn't really accomplish much besides time saving. And if survivors had a lot of tools to give themselves endurance, it would be a pain to face survivors endurance chaining mid chase.
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There are more source of endurance than just unhook protections and dead hard.
Made for This provides Endurance when you pick up a survivor from dying.
Soul Guard gives you Endurance when you heal/recover from dying.
We're going to live forever grants Endurance to a survivor you pick up.
Then you have killer powers like Legion and Ghoul.
I think the idea behind this change is interesting. It would allow a survivor to build a protection build around MoM. But there's not really many reliable means to give yourself endurance besides Dead Hard to make such a build worthwhile. It is technically a time saver as it means you do not have to mend which is helpful against Legion, but then it's just a similar problem that Virgil was having against Clown/Freddy.
Overall, probably shouldn't change BT to this as the design space is just not well supported with current game mechanics.
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The claim of Windows being a beginner friendly perk falls flat when you see that it is one of the most used survivor perks. The perk gives a lot of value to veteran players who don't need to think about how to path and can see which areas are deadzones.
I would honestly say that the new version of Windows is more of a beginner perk, because window locations are something to learn as they never change within the tile. So the value veterans will get will be much less.
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@maybesarahhh said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117498#Comment_4117498
i was expecting a change with either windows or 5 moves ahead because they kinda did the same thing previously. while i'm not a huge fan of the change, i think it is understandable. i just wish they would have given a better buff to balance the nerf of taking away pallet vision. i think something like blocking the window for the killer for a few seconds could be an interesting addition to the perk to make it a bit more valuable with the update
Windows doesn't need a compensation buff, at least not right now. People have been asking for perk changes to get rid of the current meta. Windows has been one of the most meta perks for a while now. It deserves to be brought down for a bit.
IMO, the perk has been a detriment to the skill of the survivor playerbase. Too many survivors use this perk and essentially let the perk do all the thinking for them in chase. Not helped by pallet density increase last year making it much easier to run pallet to pallet. This is much healthier design for the perk.
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Seeing that we're modifying perks like Agitation and Iron Grasp to have better T1/T2 stats, why not just get rid of perk tiers? If the difference between tiers is going to be minor and we're going to keep getting new perks every few months added to the pool, it would be a lot better for the playerbase as a whole if we just didn't have perk tiers anymore.
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People have been asking for a meta shake up for over a year. WoO is the most used survivor perk. Of course it was going to get nerfed and it certainly deserves to.
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Changing Shoulder the Burden from Expose to Broken is a good change. Expose duration was short and plenty of killers don't really get value from expose. Plus a survivor becoming broken is noticeable so the killer can actually know the perk was used to play around it. The deactivating the perk for all survivors is very questionable and I'm not a fan of it.
Windows is literally the most used perk in the game and hardly just a beginner perk that people like to claim that it is. The fact that you would see P100 survivors running it meant that it was giving value far past what a beginner survivor needs. Simply put it gave too much information for free with no downside. It also didn't help that Five Moves Ahead struggled to be it's own perk with the existence of Windows. Now both have their own identity and Windows is made weaker so survivors have a reason to run other perks.
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@SkeletonDance said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4117108#Comment_4117108
It also says that it only activates one per trial across all survivors. So instead of once per survivor it's once per all survivors. Not sure if the translation is correct
It appears the perk deactivates for everyone once it is used. Frankly I think is overkill. Changing Exposed to becoming Broken is fair, but I am against the idea of your perks deactivating due to the actions of other players.
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Killers do not need to be designed where using their own power is an active detriment. Even if Clown was actually broken and needed to be nerfed, this would be a terrible way to address his power.
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There's a directional global sound that plays when Judgement starts charging her beam. Pay attention to the game.
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BHVR probably could have just removed it affecting hindered, but no one should really be surprised that BHVR does a terrible job at finding the middle ground with their balance changes.
But it was unfair for a perk to counter 2 specific killer powers when we have already moved away from that kind of design space years ago.
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Well survivors are able to remove Heresy without needing to rescue survivors from exile unlike PH who survivors can only remove torment by performing rescues on caged survivors.
The other thing is that Judgement cannot camp survivors who are in exile and a survivor rescues all exiled survivors with 1 interaction. PH cages spawns are easy to learn and survivors have to rescue caged survivors from the front so it makes it much easier for PH to camp cages even with the teleport mechanic.
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The whole point of killers having a power alternative to hooks is that they are not hooks.
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@random1543 said:
I dont like that they hide these changes under "fixed a issue"
They did with phead buffs too, nobody thought he was bugged for years right?
Like someone even reported Plot twist to betahub and its marked as open meaning it not being looked at.
Meanwhile Midwhich bug sits broken nearly a year later and has been sitting with "fix incoming" for months yet no mention of it in map bug fixes still.https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/HHECI7JETIL3/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/TC6L95XVS80V/image.png
If something is done as a buff or nerf just really wish it was be marked as such. Plot twist has not been bugged since launch imo.
BHVR has a history of hiding changes under bugfixes. It's one thing for them to decide that they would rather a perk or character work differently. But acting that it has just been bugged for years and that they finally fixed it has been a weird ploy to hide these kind of changes.
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Everything I've seen about this killer has suggested to me she's just going to be another Artist. A killer that in theory is extremely strong held back by their power being unyielding to use that no one bothers to play her.
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I think focusing on punishing killers of tunneling is not what is currently needed. Currently killers do not get any innate benefit to spreading hooks on survivors and killing a survivor early slows down generator progress a lot.
Before we start to punish tunneling, we need to provide actual benefit for spreading hooks so that killers do not feel that tunneling survivors is their best choice every game.
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@cammoking123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4111726#Comment_4111726
We do. It's called balance. In what world is two seconds of haste worth 40 seconds of exhaustion?
Sprint Burst is on demand. You can use it anywhere when needed. If you want 3 seconds of hate you have options like Lithe and Balanced Landing to consider instead.
Also giving buffs for nerfs is not innately balanced. It is perfectly fine to nerf things that are too strong with needing to give them buffs.
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We don't need to give compensation buffs for things that get nerfed in the same way buffs do not need compensation nerfs.
Sprint Burst was the best exhaustion perk by a mile because it provided the same value as other exhaustion perks while not having a restriction of note. You always had it regardless of map or tile location. It deserved the nerf it got.
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I'm not sure why they went with 10 second Elusive. Elusive doesn't have the same problem that Endurance has in that it can't be used aggressively. Honestly they should do something like 30 seconds of Elusive. If the killer wants to tunnel then they are fighting an uphill battle and the survivor has a much better chance to hide away on maps that are not indoors.
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@HolyDarky said:
It seems like the official reason for this nerf is because of people who pay no attention to the game with the given example of streamers who look in the chat while working on a generator.
https://youtu.be/gQnC5Pi4iPw?si=sDW1uATFdFW4kn0n&t=895
BHVR has been balancing for the lowest common denominator for a while so this doesn't surprise me.
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it's funny how killers couldn't get actual gameplay benefit for not tunneling bc it would be "handholding", but they do this.
This is quite literally handholding for survivors bc now survivors do not need to have any sort of awareness as the game will just tell them danger is coming.
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Any solution to the slugging for the 4K should involve putting the game into a 1v1 state rather than giving the survivors more chances.
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There was certainly a better way they could have handled the perk. But it was certainly a perk that deserves the gutting it is getting.
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@dangersmymidd1ename said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109733#Comment_4109733
As I said in my previous post, there is a huge different between EGC and having all remaining survivors on the ground with no way to get up. In the EGC many things can happen and be done by both sides. An Abandon option when the game is not yet over, could even be seen as discouraging to the killer player.
Survivors slugged on the ground could have unbreakable yet the game lets people abandon regardless if there is a chance.
It's not like Killers would be forced to abandon when EGC start. It would be up to their choice. And if they feel the game isn't worth playing out, then let them leave. Otherwise forcing killers to AFK because they cannot abandon is just wasting their time for no good reason.
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@dangersmymidd1ename said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109730#Comment_4109730
I think that Abandon option is just a side effect of being the last survivor on the ground, not necessarily a mori-skip.
It still gets used for that. My point is that 10 seconds is enough for survivors to abandon to avoid wasting their time, so it is absolutely fair game for killers to abandon once EGC starts. No reason to force killers to stay in game if all they will do is AFK anyways. They can leave and requeue accepting the loss.
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@dangersmymidd1ename said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4109726#Comment_4109726
The difference is that in those last 2 minutes, if the killer is not interested in interacting with survivors, they have the option to AFK and make a coffee, or break pallets/do glyphs/practice their M2. Survivors can leave or they may be completing a quest, healing for points, cleansing a totem for points, looting chests, etc. There are also plenty of situations where those survivors could be caught. They might even die to the end game timer.
Personally I like the chance both as killer and survivor to interact at the end of the game. It's not always a toxic moment.
Survivors abandon to avoid watching 10 second mori cutscene. If the point of the abandon system is to allow people to not have their time wasted, then killers need to be able to abandon at the end game. How much time is being wasted doesn't matter, because again survivors abandon to avoid Mori cutscene.
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@dangersmymidd1ename said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/471316/let-killers-abandon-when-the-gates-open
The End Game Collapse is only 2 minutes. If you don't want to interact with the survivors, you can just press Tab and go make a coffee.
Bleeding out only lasts 4 minutes, if you don't want to sit there you can just Tab and go make a coffee.
If the whole point of the abandon system was to make it so survivors didn't have to sit there and waste their time, then killers should have the same at end game. If the killer feels the game is already lost, they don't need to be forced to play out the last few minutes of the match.
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BBQ is not some magic bullet that makes killers not tunnel. It only cares about hooking each survivor at least once so killers can still quite easily tunnel out 1 survivor before starting to spread hooks.
Plus bloodpoint game is much better now than it was back when BBQ improved bloodpoint. Many killers are not going to chose to run BBQ and not tunnel for extra bloodpoints.
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Matchmaking is messed up because of 2v8. The mode invites a bunch of people to play killer with a friend, because it normally is not possible.
The state of killer isn't the same across all killers. Many of the weaker killers are in really rough spots and struggle. The stronger killers in the game do not.
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2v8 is the only mode in the game that allows you to play killer with a friend. It will always grab more people playing killer for this simple fact. It has nothing to do with game balance.
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We shouldn't change anon mode, because a handful of vocal people are upset they can't harass anon players.
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@ArtGueds said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4106051#Comment_4106051
I literally stated that this is a non issue in today's dbd since you can abandon the match. Also, the name given to the state should not dictated gameplay design, that is some stupid reasoning. The fact that hooking is not beneficial to the killer (which is not true cause it is) is an issue that has nothing to do with the poor design on slugging
And if the killer slugs 3 of the 4 survivors and the last survivor makes no attempt to pick anyone up will be a hostage holding situation.
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If there was no timer you could be kept hostage in a match.
On top of that, it is the dying state. You are dying. It is longer than dying on hook so in theory it shouldn't be optimal for killers to bleed survivors out. But there's an argument to be made that many survivor perks make being hooked more beneficial to the survivor.
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I just won't get bringing back Lights Out just to give survivors light and free information.
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Jason is not taking the game hostage if he's patrolling in his power trying to find you in a 1v1 scenario. Some killers are just better at these end game 1v1 scenarios than others. It is not a problem that needs to be solved.
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Killers simply have little reason to let hatch spawn, because it's just an rng mechanic that may give survivors an escape they likely would not have had otherwise. On top of that, the game also just doesn't force a conclusion when there's only 1 survivor left standing which also contributes to this.
If you want to remove slugging for 4Ks, then we need to remove hatch and create a 1v1 standoff when there is only 1 survivor standing. BHVR is implementing a 1v1 mode so we have a basis for what a 1v1 standoff could be. We have the void for events which can allow BHVR to create showdown arenas with fresh resources.
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@Your_Dad_Playing_DbD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4104778#Comment_4104778
So instead of punishing the minority of players who live far away from a server, they punish the majority who do by allowing high ping players to ruin games.
It's most certainly unreasonable to expect BHVR to prevent people from playing DBD just because they live in certain areas of the world.
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The problem is that ping is highly dependent on location to servers. Since DBD uses dedicated servers it means it is the responsibility of BHVR to place servers in areas. For some players, there is simply no close server and BHVR punishing players for their lack of servers would be a bad move.
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@indieeden7 said:
It seems a lot of people apparently think hitting great skill checks consistently is a difficult thing to do
Original Ruin slowed the game down at the start without any input. Even if every survivor was hitting only great skill checks every time, they were still getting no extra progression on those great skill checks. It being a hex meant that survivors also spent time not on gens to remove it.
New Ruin does not contribute the same way and it only works if the killer is capable of getting survivors of gens. It's good, but it's not just slap it on every killer and get value.
I would say it's more of a sidegrade now than a straight nerf, but I do understand people who do see it as just nerfed.
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The whole community voted chapter was a bunch of "here's cool concepts to vote on" followed up by "oh this is actually technically challenging so we did something else instead".
BHVR should have had a better understanding of their own limitations before asking us to vote on concepts they couldn't deliver on.