Clevite
Clevite
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Why don't we just cancel the whole ######### game and go play ring around the Rosie?
It's a game. If a pixelated character squatting hurts your sensibilities too much, perhaps play a different game.
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Gotta love some lethal tunneler!
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It's a horror themed party game that too many people turned into a competitive game.
But, everything loses its luster over time. Are you still scared watching Friday the 13th for the sixth time?
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I agree that these situations suck, but why not run DS.
These exact situations are why I run DS over BT.
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I honestly love kindred, bond, and windows.
I want information!!!!!
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@Marigoria said:
Mine are kindred and bond.
Yes!!!!!!
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Just shows, with a kill/survival rate hovering just over 50%.
And SWF gets out 15% more than solo.
That solo q is the real killer and the hardest mode to reach win conditions.
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I appreciate your position, but they already stated they are removing them. Time to start working on accepting it.
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@SleepyWillo said:
100% the same for me! Everyone else is ready but that one person... It might only be 1 minute but all those 1 minutes add up
If you're playing video games, you got some minutes to spare in life.
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You realize people walk away and grab snacks , take a piss, etc after the initial ready up, right?
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Damn, you got cynical fast. Lost the fun in under a month or so?
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2723491#Comment_2723491
It didn’t die because of the balance. It died because they couldn’t release or support it anymore due to licensing.
Fair enough.
Still small sample to know if it would have succeeded.
But, point taken.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2722266#Comment_2722266
That's not true at all. Friday the 13th was balanced around 6/8 people dying, and was even a point while the game was being promoted. Now granted, Jason was weaker than they intended, but the thought was there. F13 was a much better game than this mess imo, but unfortunately the licensing issues killed it.
I never played it, but considering it died out, hard to use that as an example
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@pseudechis said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2722486#Comment_2722486
balancing around a 75% kill rate doesn't guarentee survivor losses it just makes sure the power balance is 4v1 not 1v1.
You use a useless statement like "nothing guarantees anything" then base your whole argument on higher kill rate guaranteeing survivor losses and ruining the game, you are contradicting yourself.
I'm just making the point that the game should be balanced around 4v1, meaning you'd expect a high kill rate overall rather than a 50/50 kill rate. A 50/50 kill rate is balancing around 1v1 or 4v4 it doesn't work here and results in unbalanced games and backwards pressure meaning survivor is often less pressured to achieve their goal than killer is.
When you consider the theme that's pressure going in the wrong direction as killer should be the threatening pressence that justifies the 4v1 layout.
Balancing around an expected 75% kill rate is not a mad thing to suggest. Because if the game is balanced 4v1 you'd expect a higher kill rate overall due to the nature of assymetric play. 1 power role vs 4 lesser roles that are only competitive when they work together.
Business models, killer releases etc are irrelevant to the point the OP made. Which was "I don't understand why they want to balance around 50/50 escapes" I don't either given the theme of the game.
If they want a 50/50 balanced e-sports scenario there should be a defined win condition and equivalency on each team. Neither of those things exist here so it seems foolish to try and balance the game around that ill defined outcome. Then go and base the MMR system around it so that it borks match making even more.
It strikes me as an odd thing to do especially when they promote the game as big scary killer chasing fearful survivors in a slasher movie setting. I can't say I'm even remotely scared of the killer in the majority of my games and I think this equalized balancing probably has something to do with that. It just feels too safe 1v1 to be a 4v1 survival horror.
As I said thopugh its PVP and people value winning over game experience so they'll undermine game experience to make an equal chance of winning because that's what the crowd want. Even if it means the killer is a lesser threat to the survivors in doing so.
I think you're taking my words out of context.
My point was of course, little in life is guaranteed.
However, you can stack the odds towards a certain outcome.
And if that outcome is a 75% loss rate, then who would want to play that role? As killer, where is the challenge with a kill rate almost guaranteeing a 3k? Would that not get boring?
And as you know with the law of averages, if great players are surviving 50% of the time, casuals would rarely be getting out.
And like it or not, new killer characters bring in new killers, rarely do they bring in new survivors
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@BubbaDredge said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2721980#Comment_2721980
A 3k is definitely a win. I consider a 2k a tie, but a 3 is a clear win.
Also, classically one survivor usually escapes in a horror movie, that's what the term "final girl" refers to. So a 3K should feel like canon.
Yeah, but it's not entirely true.
For instance, Halloween, original,
Laurie survives, as does Dr. Loomis, Sheriff Leigh, Nurse Marrion and Thomas and Lindsey.
And even more in the others.
Now, the game is just that, a game. And while we enjoy our 4ks as killers, a 75% kill rate would be about 100 for new players, people just won't want to play a game so stacked against them.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2722266#Comment_2722266
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2722268#Comment_2722268
Balancing around a 3K/1E does not guarantee a 3K, just as balancing around a 2K/2E doesn't guarentee a 2K/2E.
Survivors have more wiggle room as you put it on the basis there are 4 of them vs 1 killer. The team element creates their wiggle room.
Killer wiggle room is born of being overall stronger than a single survivor. So 1v1 killer should come out on top majority of the time.
We would expect a higher than avreage kill rate representing good balance, skewed by how coordinated the survivor team was.
If the game is balanced we should see slight over performance of killers given the assymetric 4v1 nature of the game that's reliant on (potentially random) team coordination on the survivor side.
When they post stats they kinda show this in raw kill counts. However its always used as a negative to argue for killer nerfs
The more they try to shift that number to a 50/50 result the more they have to buff survivors 1v1 making the game less assymetric survival horror and more e-sports loopy chase.
The very argument that "no one would want to play a game where they had a 75% chance loss" is the very kind of thinking I'm talking about valuing winning over game experience.
In an assymetric survival horror you should expect it to be hard to survive and easy to die otherwise its not survival horror its just blood tag with points farming and everybody gets a trophy day. I'm sorry but that's a mediocre game experience that flies in the face of the game's very theme.
Nothing guarantees anything, but a 3k average indicates much more loses for survivors than wins.
And, if you expect the majority of the player base to lose more than it wins, well longevity is not your main concern.
Simply put, regardless of individual biases, survivors don't want to be solely playthings for a 75% kill rate.
I'm pretty sure that's what the killer argument is now. No one wants to be a pawn.
New killers being released assures new players enter the game.
Survivors aren't showing up to face a new killer,killers are showing up to play a new killer. Behavior has a plan, and it's a classic business model. Create turnover and bring in new revenue.
The rest is moot and subjective.
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Spirit, Bubba, Plague and Freddy do fairly well
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@bnork said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2722275#Comment_2722275
I mean that's true, i suppose it's beating a dead horse, but that's the point of a company keeping something in the game that injures the fun of the game? My main question is that if the vocal majority isn't enjoying it, or at the very least preferred old rank based match making, why is it here? At first i thought they added it to balance the game properly but we haven't really seen to much of that as of late ya know?
I think they did it to remove ranks as a MM tool, which previously was used in screenshots to demonstrate how ######### that system was.
Now , they can simply say, "Grades don't matter, go play Civ 5 if we don't like it"
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@bnork said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2722197#Comment_2722197
Im glad you don't have a problem with MMR, but you are flat out wrong when it comes to the community not being upset about it, open twitter, YouTube, steam, twitch and you will see thousands of people that are just flat out bored or upset about the state of the game. And i don't really care about steam numbers, the game isn't dying it's just not in the best place in my opinion.
The simple truth is it doesn't matter.
People on here talk about how stressed they are and unfun the game is, but then state "they love it and won't leave". So, why should BeHvr care? People are sticking with this game regardless.
They said MMR isn't going anywhere, and I am taking them at their word.
They continue to bring in new players, and that seems to be their priority.
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@Lenox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2721980#Comment_2721980
I can't tell if it's sarcasm either. But it's one of the worst ideas I've read on these forums.
I know, right.
Like killer would be so easy if it was "balanced" to give you a 3k from the start.
Why would anyone want to play verses that?
I mean, I get why you would want to play as it, with a guaranteed 3k.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2721942#Comment_2721942
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2721980#Comment_2721980
2K/2E being balanced in an asymmetric survival horror is weird though.
There is this prevailing opinion that survivors dying is unfun but killers have to settle for 4 BBQ stacks as a form of quasi win condition because its rude or mean to kill anyone.
There are a lot of posts on this forum by even BHVR reps saying they just aim for 4 BBQ stacks as their win condition, why even have the kill mechanic then? Just let everyone respawn and farm points and then everyone can escape. Its the worst kind of everybody gets a trophy day mentality.
75% kill rate would be on target for the game's theme. I'd love to have a real sense of danger when playing survivor as only one of us is likely to get out alive. Just like the slasher films this game is based on and tries to emulate.
You see it time and again this mentality where if you don't escape the game is ruined even if it was a rich full game where everyone participated right into the EGC and then died to something silly like NOED.
If the killer was a really powerful computer and the game hard, people would probably relish the challenge, but because its another player they just get angry that someone else managed to kill them.
Trying to balance around this 50/50 escape or die idea just feels like pandering to bad sports who value winning over playing. It undermines the horror element of the game in favour of PVP "fairness."
The problem is, balancing around 75% kill rate, and not taking into account camping and tunneling would kill the game.
If you die 3 out of 4 times, as a standard balance, how many times would that increase with those tactics.
And who wants to play a game where you are 75% likely to end in defeat. Not to mention rng, teammates, etc.
The reason 50% works, is because it provides both sides with some wiggle room and not a defeatist proposition.
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A thinly veiled us verses them thread.
You have been playing sine legion came out and you haven't learned to ignore chat yet?
Somehow I knew this was going be a first or second post account.
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2721580#Comment_2721580
IMO, that happens when a PvP game does not bother to establish win conditions. It then falls upon the players to decide upon themselves what their goals are. Because there is no central win condition to focus around, it then becomes impossible to please all the players and their various personal standards that they had to set for themselves, which results in a number of those players becoming frustrated/stressed.
I can certainly agree with you. When I started playing and getting "not bad" I always wanted a 4k. That was my win condition, but that mindset added to the frustration and cause me to enjoy the game less.
I always enjoy hearing others opinions on this topic!!
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@Veinslay said:
It should be balanced towards a 75% kill rate, with one survivor escaping on average
Is this sarcasm?
Because no one wants to play a game where you lose 75% of the time.
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2721645#Comment_2721645
I will explain my own experiences with the situation at hand, here we go:
a normal game would be like this: you start the match, roam around, finally stumble over a survivor, chase them a bit and after a while he escapes or you get a down. If you down the survivor you would approach, look around if there was a cheeky flashlight save waiting for you, then face a wall, pick the survivor up, walk over to the next hook, and then roam around to one of the gens, to pressure there, only starting hard proxi-camping or tunneling, once 3 gens are done and you got no kill by that time.
But now imagine that you cant even get that first hook, because an orchestrated commando move, where someone first crouch behind you to confuse and mess with you, then runs cirlces and clickety clicks, while another one sabotages the hook. By the time you reach the next hook, the survivor on your shoulder wriggeled free and a gen pops without you gotten anything out of it. Seconds later the hurt suvivors are up to top conditon, because of some CoH in a corner.
As a singular occurence this would be ok, but you are denied practically any measure of success, so if you dont step up the game, play ugly and be sweaty af you will end the game with 0-2 hooks, not 1-2K. You practically have to "Make your choice: live with 1-2 hooks for a couple of games till you derank enough OR play like a sweaty bastard and show 'em!". By playing sweaty you can win, can get yout 3-4K, but most of the time it will be a misserable experience and feel like you played the dbd worldcup finals. And like I said: occasional this would be ok, but if you got this game after game, all day every day, it just saps your will to kill.
So why do I come still back to play the game, even though I have a lot of sweaty and stressful matches? Because I love the game, love the core idea and gameplay and all the interesting killers with their powers (I rotate killers a lot and dont just play Nurse/Spirit/Blight), which makes this whole situation just that more tragic. This game could easily be such a gem, such a masterpiece, yet its held back, some might say sabotaged, by some design decisions, that apparently a lot of the community don't agree with.
And the internet being the internet, you don't have the level-headed, empathetic and somewhat measured folks in the majority or as the mouth pieces of their chosen faction, but you get the ugly, anonymous and toxic cesspool, that so often seems to dominate the narrative here.
So until some bold new moves are tried, I guess this game will burn out more killers then survivors, tilting the ratio into an unhealthy way, setting everyone at odds with each other. But many will still come back after a time, because the game is quite cool.
Thanks for the well stated reply.
I know we are all different, I am always curious as to why people would continue to play a game , or anything for that matter, as recreation, that causes stress.
Personally I have felt that way in the past on this game, but it always correlated with my success. Then after years, changing to a more passive mindset has eliminated that feeling.
Thanks for the perspective!
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@AnxiousRiddle said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2721580#Comment_2721580
Depends. I don't care how many people escape, I just want good chases. If I am actively doing nothing but holding W the entire time or searching for an urban evading claudette, that's just not fun in any context, whether they get out or not.
I agree with this, on both sides.
I enjoy the chase. But admittedly, I was a cutthroat killer for years before playing survivor.
And over time, I have evolved into a journey over the destination gamer.
I remember stressing over the game in my first couple years. But, for me, it was anticipating not being competitive and getting my 4k that caused that reaction. After playing some great survivors.
I am curious what causes it in others .
And if a change in mindset would allievate it.
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@Zozzy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2721580#Comment_2721580
There is a difference between your skill as a player determining the outcome of a match and forced mechanics and balance decisions to ensure you will lose no matter how good you are.
That's fair. But, in a way, it's like going to a casino. I know the odds are against me, and win or lose, I have fun.
When the fun becomes a stressor, isn't it time to find another hobby?
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2721580#Comment_2721580
You see, once you reach the sweaty shores of the MMR system, you don't have the choice to sweat it to get a 4K or play it cool and walk away with a 2K,you have to sweat it to walk away with anything better then a humiliating defeat. If you just play yolo you are lucky if you get a singel hook, often you will be denied practically everything, with bodyblocking and sabotaging shenanigans each and every time. If you don't sweat it, you won't even get a casual hook, and the whole match is on edge. If you sweat it hard and get your 1-2K (NOY easy or chill), maybe even the occasional 3-4K if altruism killed the team in q spectacular blunder, then congratulations and you will stay at this level.
Or you could say "whatever", play yolo and suffer 2-4 games where you get nothing done and de-rank enough that you can have a series of normal games. But steadily you will climb again, until you are back at the top.
This is the reality that many killer mains face and lament, this feeling of getting punished by playing good, because you will then be paired with the smol group of well organized and oppressive survivor swf groups until you lost enough that you are eligible for more normal or solo-q matches.
Unser this light the words from that (I think October or November Dev Stream) sounds so cynical: "something something the skill bades Match Making will ensure that every game will be against someone of your own skill level, improving the quality of every single game. More fun for everyone."
I am writing a book again, here, and I am never sure if someone actually reads all of this ;) But whatever. Most killers don't want to stomp baby survivor groups, and there is nothing wrong with a tooth-and-nails-sweat-match every now and then, but sweat after sweat, all day every day just rapidly drains your killer instinct, and this is when you read it so often that killer mains question themselves "why even boot up the game and bother?" or use colorful descriptions like "I would rather drive toothpicks under my fingernails then play a game tonight".
I really think the best solution would be something like open free game and ranked matches with better monthly rewards if you feel like it.
So, are you saying the stress comes from battling sweat squads game after game?
And that playing chill will lower your MMR as to make it too easy?
I certainly understand how this constant sweating would become tiresome. I just don't see a way to balance this and not kill casual solo q in the process.
I am just curious as to why people get stressed from a game and then continue to play it.
And what drives the stress reaction?
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@Smuk said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2721580#Comment_2721580
Firstly, you have made a wrong argument regarding 4K, as I opened discussion around 2K/2E.
But why wouldnt a killer enter with mindset of scoring 4K as compared to SWF to 4E (as they care more for friends rather then soloQ). Human is driven by nature to have goals and expectations - real or virtual life
I dont know which killer would be thinking as “Okay, I will run few miles across map, destroy 20 pallets, cut somebody and
maybe get a hook. - Best game ever.
As it seems to be legacy of BHVR. One side start perma slack = nerfs to the other side.
As apperantly the effort of killer to achieve balanced outcome of the game is always high - sbmm included.
No, my point was what causes the stress reaction?
And, indeed is is caused by our own expectations? And a failure to meet them.
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But doesn't the stress come from your own expectations and win conditions.?
It's wanting that 4k, every game, then failing to get it that brings on a stress reaction.
If we all could really accept any result and enjoy just playing, wouldn't that make the game less stressful?
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Killers have bloodlust.
Looping is the only fun interactive part of survivor, IMO.
Looping doesn't need nerfs, maps could use some balance, but we already have limited resources, and you want to block them during a chase?
Management of resources is what separates the good from the great
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@Marigoria said:
Sorry for what exactly? Playing the game?
I'm pretty sure the killers who 4ks and "BM'ed" you don't feel sorry, so why should you?
^This exactly!!
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@Sludge said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2719974#Comment_2719974
Data doesn't matter, it's a proven fact.
Just have fun in whatever way you can.
But, if we did this, and the kill rate dropped, it would force a killer buff
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Honestly, it would be the opposite.
Run no slow down, never tunnel or camp, and don't use noed.
Then after a few months, see what the data says about balance then.
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Congrats!
Did you go back and watch the vod?
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@Huge_Bush said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2719093#Comment_2719093
Unless its me. Then my presence will make you weep.
I would celebrate your presence! And be privileged to have played with you!
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@The_Krapper said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2719093#Comment_2719093
Coming from a PC player, I've seen plenty of people on steam that are absolutely trash at the game, some are good and some aren't the platform doesn't make the player, from what I can tell all platforms generally have the good and the bad, I won't deny the advantage keyboard and mouse gives once you've mastered it but it's only noticable on the killer side and it isn't really enough to claim one is better than the other, it just means like a few killers perform better on PC than they would console
No, Totally agree it's a mixed bag. But, for me, 3 ps4 loading in, usually equates to a 3 man swf with an inflated sense of their skill level that die quickly in overly altruistic moves, ######### game for me.
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I'm console, and honestly, as survivor, I dodge all lobbies that are all ps4 players.
I want at least 1 PC player on my team.
Sorry, but, it's true.
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This thread really comes down to,
"I tried to change roles and I sucked, therefore the other side has it so bad."
The truth is, killer takes time to get good. If your time as killer is limited, well so is your opinion.
Many of us that have played long term, know the truth is somewhere in the middle.
Both sides have complaints, but both side exaggerate.
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@Dramzar_Myers said:
Camping is not problem. Camping - it is the strat to NOT let the hooked to escape. In other words - this is strat that allows killer secure his main objective in this game. Just like that
It's a strat, but not a very fun one, nor interactive.
And, trust I currently am doing nothing but camping as Bubba to see what my average kills are.
I previously was letting people go but that got boring.
And, I easily get 2ks every game. Probably closer to 3, so it is effective.
But, if it wasn't for the data, it would get boring quick.
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Really gotta stop generalizing one person as the spokesman for a whole player base.
One person got upset over this.
Not every survivor that plays the game.
Personally, I'd rather just be killed, Idc about hatch.
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@AngyKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2717837#Comment_2717837
Someone did not read the post.
The post is not that camping does this or that; The post is what people expect if camping is 'fixed'. IE: If the Killer is FORCED to 12 hook after a 'fix', and how it's affected by current gen speeds.
I read it, but the math is all wrong.
You can't force people to 12 hook, every killer that has sniffed high ranks knows this is a recipe for a loss.
I don't put a lot of weight into the devs fixing camping. As many of us have been waiting on QoL fixes for this game for years.
But if we are to balance this game, and eliminate camping and tunneling, then no doubt they will have to adjust something on survivor side.
I'll be out here camping with Bubba because it is new to me and I am enjoying the shiggles. 2k minimal!
P. S., survivors run DS for God's sake.
BT ain't gonna help you here.
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Also, on the flip side, this 1/12 argument is bullshit, as I know very few killers that go for 12 hooks.
They camp u to second and tunnel you out of the game.
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I can almost guarantee a 2k at least by camping as Bubba.
And I only need to win 2 chases.
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Ironically, it doesn't seem as such in solo q.
Solo(killer or survivor) seems to get that particular end of the stick in all of this.
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It's in bad form, IMO, but who gives a #########.
Get a snack, take a piss or a shot, it's a game don't take is so seriously
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@BrokenSouI said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2716963#Comment_2716963
I'll tunnel you any day. My friend 😉
Haha, would be a pleasure!!!! 😄
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I welcome the tunnel, although I don't highly respect it , if that is all you have as a killer skill.
Let's see how many gens I can run you for. Because running you for 5 gens with a ds,multiple pallet stuns, watching you swing at windows I already cleared, while 3 get out, is better than any escape 😉.