Blueberry
Blueberry
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Alert is already pretty good. The only reason it doesn't see play is because there are perks that are too good and pretty good isn't better than too good.
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When you have a few certain perks that are too good it makes it very hard to mix up the meta because in order to replace those "too good" perks you have to make new perks that are "better than too good". Hence why they end up nerfed.
We fix this by toning down those meta outlier "too good" perks.
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You do nothing.
It's a lose/lose scenario.
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All they had to do was, "while repairing a gen it is silent".
Boom. That's it. No downsides. No stipulations on the amount of survivors. That easy.
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The Boogeyman - Fits the lore of him in closets
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Better than what we had of course, but not nearly as impactful as people are acting like. How often do you realistically interrupt healing? Rarely.
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It's better than nothing, but it is pretty minor. At least the addons are actually decent now.
To be honest I'd just like to them to increase the potential for mind games since in the end he's still just an m1 killer. Like adding Defeaned to the Deep Wounds effect would add a extra layer of depth to the game play. Now you'd be scared to Mend if you weren't positive of his location. They may assume you're running off to spread the Deep Wounds around when in reality the killer doubles back out of line of sight and sneaks up on you from the Deafened status.
Simple change that would add so much extra depth to Legion and make Deep wounds actually matter.
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@FlameGNG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2890056#Comment_2890056
you would not i have frineds with 4000+ hours who doesnt run any exhaustion perks they are generally useless if you loop perfectly anyways.... dead hard is cheap i agree its i frames AND distance... while i do know they all are situational but you might aswell 99 sprint burst nad use it as smashit i mean balanced landing and overcome do different things balacned reduces the stagger but they removed it due to infinites and that so many maps had drops (when there are maps that IT CANT BE USED ON...) infact BL is probably the only perk that has 0 use on some maps literally 0 liek you CANT even use it
You would. You're friends would simply be doing better if they ran an Exhaustion perk regardless of how good they loop. Most the time you ever don't see an Exhaustion perk is simply because they want to challenge themselves because it's already too easy or they're just meme'ing. If your intention is just to win you would always be running one.
That's actually wrong on BL in regards to some maps with zero use. There are some maps with very little use, but there are some spots on even the worst maps. No map has literally zero spots.
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While DH is a large offender, Exhaustion perks in general are way over tuned.
For example, lets say we literally doubled the Exhaustion debuff. That is a massive nerf. Yet, we would still see an Exhaustion perk on every single survivor, every single game. That in itself should illustrate how over tuned they are if you could nerf them that signficantly and they would still be in every single game, on every single survivor. If they were even remotely close to balanced then that hard of a nerf would make them nearly unseen, but that isn't the case.
There is literally no reason you would not always have an Exhaustion perk on every single game unless you just didn't care about winning, that is bad design. Every single perk should make you weigh the pros and cons and debate whether it was worth it that game. There is no consideration to make with Exhaustion perks, you just auto equip them no matter what. Bad design.
Either Exhaustion perks tuned down tremendously or killer Exhaustion perks tuned up tremendously. One or the other.
This all said I will throw some disclaimers. I think some Exhaustion perks that are designed well and totally fine are ones such as BL or Head On. They're situational, require you to play around them, and have high or low value depending on map rng so there's some risk attached to using them. They aren't just default auto high value every game regardless of anything. I'm fine with these. This is how the other Exhaustion perks should be.
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She incentivizes hold W game play which is boring for everyone.
I think they should've focused less on her anti-loop with the birds and instead improved her cross map sniping. That would've been much more fun for both sides and had some higher skill cap with mind games and predicting/timing movement.
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@The_Krapper said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2885463#Comment_2885463
If we're being honest she never was really comp viable even in her old form I just don't think shes that much weaker than before, the only spirit players that were really hurt are the ones who stood still as counterplay at a loop, but it's fine we can agree to disagree on this one
I'd agree she was almost not even comp viable before, that's fair.
"the only spirit players that were really hurt are the ones who stood still as counterplay at a loop, but it's fine we can agree to disagree on this one"
I disagree with this entirely. It requires significantly less skill from the survivor side to counter her now. We can agree to disagree though as you said.
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@The_Krapper said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2885256#Comment_2885256
Iron will doesn't need nerfed it would instantly be a never picked up perk, stridor just needs to reverted to counter iron will and the problem is solved , while spirit did get nerfed it really isn't all that bad and alot of people blow it out of proportion pretending like she was totally gutted when in reality she still plays mostly the same and with that add on it's brainless to catch survivors I agree it needs removed.
Well you'll notice I said changed or reworked, not nerfed. It would also be fine if they just reverted the Stridor change as you said.
I actually completely disagree about her nerfs being overblown, she is significantly weaker. I wouldn't even call her comp viable anymore. I can literally pallet loop her now, that isn't a small nerf.
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The game will never be totally balanced of course, but it could be much better. It should be balanced top down rather than what we currently have which is bottom up. There's some misconception that this would hurt the bottom level of players but this really isn't the case. All it would do is shift their "rank/MMR" around until they were winning/losing exactly as much as they were before. However now we'd actually have much more balanced high rank matches.
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I wish they'd remove that addon, takes a lot of skill away.
Iron Will is an issue that needs addressing though. Spirit got nerfed heavily enough that we don't need Iron Will where it's at. Rework or changes, something.
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@bm33 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2885165#Comment_2885165
Funny, on mine it was asking how useful are killer perks but how fun are survivor perks. 😂 Just ask both for both.
That seems pretty weird that they would alternate them as that would skew some data.
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Here's another.
Why do they ask how "useful" the new survivor perks are but only how "fun" the new killer perks are?
Like seriously?
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Licensed: Alien
Non Licensed: Some entity version of a werewolf or vampire. Give it a twist.
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The problem is that the general survivor meta perks are so over tuned that for any new perk to displace any of them and mix up their meta they also have to be way over tuned. Hence the nerfs.
While we obviously want new perks to mix up the meta, the real issue hindering changes in the survivor meta are the over tuned current perks. Hypothetically if the survivor meta perks were brought down to the other perks levels tomorrow we would see quite a variety in their meta. They are currently just overshadowing everything else from even being considered even though there are actually quite a lot of decent survivor perks that just go unnoticed because "good" isn't good enough to compete with over powered.
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Honestly I'd rather them just make Condemned easier to get rather than making it more deadly.
It shouldn't be easy to get, but it should at least be a concern for the survivors (currently it's not) and waste more their time to deal with it than it currently does.
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At the bare minimum the basement hooks should be scourge hooks as well.
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@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2867300#Comment_2867300
I get what you’re saying about survivors trying to stay on gens, but you can’t just assume all the survivors will always be on gens because if the killer is playing well they are exerting pressure to keep some of them off the gens as much as possible. (By the way, it’s “moot”, just FYI.) And this isn’t a negligible thing, especially if the killer player is making good use of slugging versus hooking.
At top MMR they will all be on gens, even trying to exert the most pressure possible. Obviously a generalization but I would call it true 90% of the time. You aren't going to be effectively slugging against "good" survivors, average games sure. I believe the amount you're negating is quite negligible to the extent it is still over the threshold of over tuned. I feel you're picking exceptions rather than the general rule of how things would go.
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I actually enjoy playing against Twins. I think most people just have no idea how to play against her because of how rare she is.
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I'd rather loops just be more balanced to where bloodlust wasn't necessary.
It's a bandaid for bad map design.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2867326#Comment_2867326
few reasons, sounds like long laundry list of them.
The interesting part about #5 is that survivor not healing is survivor's playing at their absolute strongest. it really highlight how much weaker the other m1 killers are with second chance health states.
In regards #6, I just wish they unnerfed her add-ons. did they really have to nerf rubbing oil & worship tablet to make corrupt puke weaker. slow wind-up really hurts : (
"few reasons, sounds like long laundry list of them."
Fair haha
"The interesting part about #5 is that survivor not healing is survivor's playing at their absolute strongest. it really highlight how much weaker the other m1 killers are with second chance health states."
It does. People over estimate how dangerous being injured is. Loops are just too safe and pallets too numerous. This all stems from balancing around bottom up instead of top down.
"In regards #6, I just wish they unnerfed her add-ons. did they really have to nerf rubbing oil & worship tablet to make corrupt puke weaker. slow wind-up really hurts : ("
They tend to nerf things that don't need nerfing. How it goes unfortunately :(
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I'd be excited if MMR was removed and CoH was nerfed significantly.
Icing on the cake would be the Ghostface and Legion changes getting them up to at least A tier, but lets be real, that ain't happening.
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Well for a few reasons:
- Survivors control too much of her power. Not even speaking in terms of her power level here but simply from a fun stand point. It isn't fun when the survivors are the ones that get to dictate whether or not you get to even use your ability or if you just get to play a loopable m1 killer all game. That much control over whether she gets to use her power isn't good design.
- She's extremely loopable with no counter play if the survivors don't cleanse. Yes they are 1 hit down, but that only matters if the survivors aren't good at looping. So you're left in this position where you're just hoping the survivors are bad...that's not fun. There are more than enough pallets to throw them all early and still have the gates open before you run out.
- Survivors don't have enough incentive to cleanse. If you're a good survivor you don't care about being 1 hit down with how safe loops are and numerous pallets are.
- She's extremely susceptible to being gen rushed even more than most killers..who are already getting gen rushed hard. It's just even more exacerbated on her when the survivors don't have to waste any time on healing and how much extra time she wastes to get them infected. She's just exceptionally inefficient when it comes to time. They have nothing to do but sit on gens.
- Even in the case where you do get them cleansing and you can get faster downs, all those faster downs aren't really faster when you look at the extra time you wasted getting them infected, going out of your way to pick up a fountain, and time you gave them on gens by them not having to actually heal. You're essentially just giving up time early to get it back later and coming out more or less just even, maybe even in the negative. This only actually ends up better when you can snowball from it with a multi slug and that realistically isn't happening against good survivors.
- Her corrupt purge forces you to respect all pallets which again makes her loopable. The slow travel time and high arc of her vomit is also quite easy to avoid if you know how to loop and hug walls.
- Finally the server ping really destroys her vomit. You will get lots of times you receive the hit notification of her vomit but it doesn't actually damage or infect them. It's quite irritating.
There needs to be more of a danger to refusing to cleanse while fully infected.
-Maybe momentary pauses when you vomit to making looping more dangerous or a small like 4m TR reduction to Plague for each survivor fully infected. Just spitballing ideas here.
There also needs to be more time efficiency on her corrupt purge acquisition.
-Allow her to collect her pools remotely from anywhere, just give her a momentary stand still to channel it wherever she's at.
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@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2862872#Comment_2862872
Your analysis is a bit off in a couple ways
- You’re including the time it takes the killer to get to the totem to snuff it but not including the time it takes the survivor to get to the totem to relight it. The survivor doesn’t just instantly teleport to the totem, they have to spend a few seconds moving to the totem as well. So really that movement on both sides is more or less a wash, the major time difference is the 2 seconds to snuff versus 14 seconds to bless so it really is something like a 10-12 second time difference in the killer’s favor. (Kind of like 1/2 a Pop)
- Not all four survivors are on gens all the time so the worst case scenario of the killer giving all four of them 6 seconds on gens almost never happens. Typically it’s more like you down/hook someone, snuff a nearby boon, and then chase someone else. And the downed person isn’t usually getting anything useful out of those 6 seconds while slugged. Likewise if a survivor is already eliminated it’s not even a 4v1 at that point. The basic point that a killer shouldn’t spend a ton of time snuffing boons while nobody is downed or hooked and all four are alive is correct, but it’s not actually a 6 to 24 seconds type deal assuming you are picking appropriate times to snuff them and not just doing it randomly.
- - I actually never even mentioned the survivors time with doing the totems so the walk time wasn't excluded, I just never mentioned their time period, walk or lighting. I was only talking about the killer time associated. However if we do want to compare those it does take away "some" of the time given, but not nearly as much as your alluding to because once again it's a 4:1 ratio per time spent, so that walk time from the survivor is worth significantly less than the killers walk time.
- - This is actually a some what mute point. This is because when comparing balance we assume both sides playing well. IE we look at good vs good, not bad vs bad or good vs good groups. Looking at something from a perspective of expecting them to play badly leads to very over tuned perks or features, something we are suffering from currently and have been for a very long time. Against event remotely decent survivors they will all be on gens, to assume otherwise is disingenuous in terms of finding proper balance (just speaking generally here, not at you). Yes we can say the killer is choosing proper times to snuff the totem (after a hook), however that is not always the case as you will run into many times the totem is right there in your area (still roughly 6 seconds) and if you choose to wait till a hook that could now mean the totem is far out of the way ( significantly more than 6 seconds now ) negating a large margin of that efficiency enough to make it nearly a mute point. This is also very common and not a rare exception.
- I'll concede that there is some leeway from the points you've given that could lower the numbers I provided slightly. However I'll also say that the numbers I gave (6 seconds) were very generous. Much of the time I'd say it's more than 6 seconds but I was leaning on the conservative side. Either way even if we do shift the numbers slightly either direction it still leaves it way over tuned. That is to say that yes what you mentioned could change the numbers, but nothing significant enough to change the over all point of still being the same.
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@Tiufal said:
So one survivor is doing nothing the whole game cause you can snuff it out in 2s while it takes at least 20s ro relit. Sure thats OP LOL
It's not 2 seconds first of all, that's being extremely disingenuous. You're more likely looking at something of at least 6 seconds and that's probably the more favorable maps with many maps being significantly more than 6 seconds. Let's even use the more kind amount of 6 seconds with better maps and ignore the worse ones. The game is a 1v4, not a 1v1, so comparing 6 seconds to find and snuff to the time for the 1 survivor to bless is once again simply disingenuous or not understanding. A fair comparison would be 6x4 for each survivor because you are giving that 6 seconds when you snuff the totem to each survivor. So you are giving them at least 24 seconds of gen time minimum every.single.time you snuff a totem...
Yeah...that is OP.
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Boons as a general concept were terrible for the game and show a lack of understanding of how the game plays at a fundamental level. Killers simply do not have the time to be finding and crushing boons over and over. Survivors needed a secondary objective and instead we got literally the the exact opposite by giving killers a secondary objective when they already don't have time for the first one. Even with how long it takes a survivor to bless a totem and how quick it is for the killer to snuff it, it still ends up a net positive for the survivors. The only way it looks reasonable is if it's looked at from a 1v1 perspective without understanding it's a 1v4. That is to say it really isn't say 6 seconds to go out of your way to snuff a totem (and that's being generous), it's 6x4=24seconds for each survivor because that 6 seconds you spend is going to each of them to work on gens. That's more than 1/4 of a generator lost every single time you snuff a totem... There's also a few maps where it can be way out of the way on another level pushing this absurdity even further out of control.
The other boons stay more in check simply because of their power level (they're still unhealthy design though).
CoH is the main issue because it's so strong you're left in a lose/lose scenario by either wasting all that time breaking them over and over or giving them the permanent effect. CoH also single handedly destroys an entire play style in the game, that's bad design. Not to mention the killers that primarily rely on that play style were in general the weaker killers in the game already. CoH's shear existence in a match encourages un-fun playstyles from the killer (tunneling/camping) and discourages more fun play styles (hit and run pressuring, aka fun chases). Once again, bad design.
Honestly, just slap a further nerf to the power level of CoH since it's still very over tuned and make totems break when snuffed. That's the closest were gonna get to bandaid fixing this.
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She’s still better than most killers but that isn’t really saying much as most killers are pretty weak. I wouldn’t call her comp viable anymore. You can win most your games because most survivors are bad but if you get even a decently good group you’re gonna struggle. She lost so much depth and is quite easily loopable now. Also the issues with iron will as others have mentioned.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
Why horror game has chat filter anyway? You are murdering people on game but you can not write some words. Are we in joke?
^ Facts. We gotta bubble wrap everything these days.
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Team doesn't cleanse = she's just an extremely loopable m1 killer so just improve your looping skills.
Team does cleanse = You take advantage of her slow wind up and the arced travel time of projectiles meaning you hug walls tight and can crouch avoid the vomit. She's honestly quite easily loopable even with corrupt. She doesn't exert much map pressure so y'all shouldn't be pumping the gens out pretty quick when you don't have to worry about healing. Just make her waste a lot of time at loops by making her respect pallet drops (for the vomit over similar to Huntress or to simply not lose her power).
She's also just quite predictable at loops because of how tall she is. It makes it much harder to mind game as her.
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Unfortunately they’ve been in this state since their inception which is basically years. They’ve stayed in the perpetual, “always being improved and worked on” status indefinitely but still never actually becoming reasonable or good. At this point it’s basically never getting fixed.
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Agree. The issue with the perk is the distance, not the iframe.
The iframe has counter play and can be baited out.
However the DH for distance when used correctly has no counter play. You basically just greed every single loop and DH if they call your bluff. Puts you in a win/win situation with nothing you can do as killer other than eat the extra time waste.
I'd also say Exhaustions current design in general is problematic as well, but I suppose that's another topic.
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As if they weren't already gutted from the meta now we got their best addons nerfed and terrible addons buffed to still be terrible. Rough Twins life.
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@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2685217#Comment_2685217
I guess I should clarify that I don’t see Undetectability so much as something the Entity is bestowing as something the killer is doing themselves. Making all the survivors Oblivious feels like a better fit in that case?
Also just standing staring at the hook to get tokens from hooking sounds counterproductive, you would want to go get more people to hook more often to get more tokens. If you just facecamp you don’t get as many tokens built up.
P.S. Either way we definitely agree that the current version is worthless.
"I guess I should clarify that I don’t see Undetectability so much as something the Entity is bestowing as something the killer is doing themselves. Making all the survivors Oblivious feels like a better fit in that case?"
Sounds good.
"Also just standing staring at the hook to get tokens from hooking sounds counterproductive, you would want to go get more people to hook more often to get more tokens. If you just facecamp you don’t get as many tokens built up."
You actually do get more tokens as people come to save. If they didn't on average come more often it wouldn't be effective and people wouldn't do it constantly, which is why they do.
"P.S. Either way we definitely agree that the current version is worthless."
Sounds like it lol
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@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2685152#Comment_2685152
I get the idea mechanically, but Undetectable far away from the basement seems like maybe it’s a thematic mismatch? What about if instead survivors who are rescued and/or rescue a person from the basement suffer a condition, maybe becoming Mangled or Oblivious or Blind or have an action speed penalty, etc? Or hooking in the basement builds up tokens that impact the game, kind of like Dying Light building up gen regression?
"I get the idea mechanically, but Undetectable far away from the basement seems like maybe it’s a thematic mismatch?"
It actually is thematic because he's gaining undetectable from making an offering to his shrine. The power is bestowed by his offering.
"What about if instead survivors who are rescued and/or rescue a person from the basement suffer a condition, maybe becoming Mangled or Oblivious or Blind or have an action speed penalty, etc?"
They never want to do action speed penalties as a generally note as they typically deem that as "un-fun" and cab be stacked with others. Blindness is a garbage status effect in general. Oblivious would be tough to make worth running the perk. Like even if we said you get a minute of Oblivious when a survivor rescues someone from the basement, that would still sound just okayish and I doubt people would run that. Basement hooks are pretty situational which forces the effect to need to be quite strong to be worth running. Mangled on the hooks is just making it a scourge hook basically.
"Or hooking in the basement builds up tokens that impact the game, kind of like Dying Light building up gen regression?"
I like the idea of an effect from hooking someone in the basement that is only rewarding on leaving the basement to give encouragement for basement hooks, but not camping them. This makes me shy away from just "hook them in the basement and you get this benefit", because now he's still just standing there staring at the hook.
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@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2684473#Comment_2684473
The whole point of Monstrous Shrine though is getting extra benefit for using the basement. The problem with the perk right now is its current effect is worthless. I’m totally open to suggestion on other ways to revamp the perk.
So basically as you mentioned we want to reward basement hooks but not with further encouragement to camp the basement. Encourage "fun" game play. Basement hooks are quite valuable so the reward needs to be good enough to incentivize leaving it.
-After hooking a survivor in the basement and reaching 16 meters from the hook the killer gains Undetectable. This effect persists as long as the survivor is still on the basement hook and the killer is outside 16 meters. The survivor being rescued, dying, or the killer entering 16 meters disables it.
Note that the killer entering the hook radius deactivates the Undectable but not the perk. IE once he leaves the hook radius it activates again (as long as the survivor is still on the hook of course).
This may seem very strong but basement hooks are not common typically and the incentive to let their hook be rescued for free needs to have a high enough reward to encourage it. After all he could have just stayed there and secured a kill.
The numbers can also be tweaked so 16 meters may be too short. Focus more on the concept as a whole.
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@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2684399#Comment_2684399
I don’t know if basement hooks should be Scourge hooks by default, but I’ve been pulling for a revamp of Monstrous Shrine to read
- Rescues off basement hooks take 2/3/4 seconds longer
- You can always see the basement hook auras
- All basement hooks count as Scourge hooks for related perks
That would give Monstrous Shrine some better abilities and also let it synergize with Scourge Hook perks.
This is a bad idea as this further encourages basement camping, ie the complete opposite of what they want to do. It encourages "un-fun" game play. That isn't good design.
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@IlliterateGenocide said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2684462#Comment_2684462
sorry? could you rephrase that little. i dont quite understand
No matter which scourge hook perk they are running none of their effects make you more likely to die in the basement as you were saying.
"trapper/hag/bubba would automatically be a deathsentence if saves took longer"
This statement doesn't make any sense in other words.
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@IlliterateGenocide said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2684452#Comment_2684452
i dont think they will ever do ur first point since basement trapper/hag/bubba would automatically be a deathsentence if saves took longer
They literally do nothing related to increasing your likelihood of dying in the basement.
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He's unpopular because he's just flat out bad. He needs significant buffs.
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Just make the basement hooks scourge hooks as well when running the perk and scourge hooks can never break. That would solve the problem.
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Boon meta destroyed hit and run and slugging play styles. Oni is in that list.
You also just pre-drop pallets early in that game to prevent his power early and he gets screwed.
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Until they decide they want to actually balance the game around the top end to be competitive they need to remove it. MMR doesn't make sense in a game that isn't balanced. MMR is for competitive games.
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That's a great question we'd all like to know.
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Way undertuned perk. Make it 60 seconds and it should activate twice, ie once you’ve one hooked everyone and again once you’ve two hooked everyone.
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Your options are bad. They should break after 1 totem snuff that’s it. Taking multiple snuffs does nothing, the game is over by that point to matter at all.
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Sorry but the guy you’re chasing leading you back to the hook to have the unhooked guy body block you from going after someone different is not even remotely tunneling, it’s abusing an anti-tunnel perk for an unintended effect. We need no collision on the BT effect. Then it will actually only be for tunneling.
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@GannTM said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2678154#Comment_2678154
I’m mainly talking about people that say comms are cheating and that it’s “unethical” to play with friends. If SWF is unbalanced then the devs should do something about it but please stop blaming SWFs for losing.
I wouldn't call it unethical, but quite literally by definition it is cheating. Cheating is defined as an unfair advantage, look it up. Whether the devs allow it or not is irrelevant to its definition.
You're right the devs should do something about it, but blaming a loss on SWF is completely reasonable when that could have been very much the reason why as they are indeed "cheating". They could have simply played bad yes, but to say they shouldn't call out an imbalance in the game as to having a huge effect on its outcome is unreasonable. Yes even just friends messing around is a huge advantage.
In the end the blame should be at bhvr for not balancing the game around it and not at the players though.