Batusalen
Batusalen
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And when have the new Grim Embrace supposedly being a "solution" to anything?
It's just a perk that had a weak effect for what it required to trigger it that now is a good slowdown perk with a decent effect. Don't know where you got it was a "bandaid" to anything.
Also, can we stop with the "Mah SoloQ", please? Every single team-based game out there would be worst if you play it with randoms and no communications. What SoloQ needs is that, in-game communications, not having the whole game balanced around them.
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@poujh said:
grim embrace is too strong and it's new effect should only be on the first hooked survivor, not with everyone
You are only not able to do gens and only if the first time the killer hook any of you.
So, you definitely are able to do "anything" in those 76 seconds, including healing, cleaning totems, opening chest or whatever you want apart from doing gens 12 seconds at a time.
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Glad to know I'm not going crazy. Also, I think something happens with the collision box, as I was missing hits that obviously I was not.
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@Shaddoll_Serpent said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3638383#Comment_3638383
Regardless of how good/bad it actually is (I think it's broken as heck), it's not fun at all to go against.
I know you could make the same argument for any perk you don't like, but hear me out, being completely locked out from participating in the game's main objective is never going to be fun. It's like going against the sabo squads who go down in areas they know you can't hook them at, it's infuriating and unhealthy to just never be able to play the game essentially.
Doesn't mean blockage perks shouldn't ever be allowed to exist, but they need to be careful designing them and keep their synergy in check because having your gen get blocked again and again and again and again is gonna get tiring and unfun because it'll feel like you can never really participate in the game's main objective.
@Shaddoll_Serpent said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3638399#Comment_3638399
That still results in 12 seconds of blockage + however much time it takes for the killer to exit the 16m range. It's a win-win regardless.
It's a win-win regardless.
[...] it's not fun at all to go against.
And? Going against someone with Bucke Up + FTP and getting people up in front of you with 10 seconds endurance it's not fun to go against and it is a win-win. Going against a gen rushing bully squad it's also not fun and if they got it their way it's a win-win. Deadhard grants you an extra health state while granting you the speed of getting hit and it's cooldown for the killer and it's also a win-win. Adrenaline grants you a free heal in the end game no matter you are hooked and it's also a win-win in that situation.
Not Grim Embrace or GE + DMS combo are overpowered in any way, as DMS still has the same counter as always and GE only works 4 times in a match and as long as you hook at least 1 time every survivor, something that any PR user can tell you it's not always possible to do in a match.
Being strong and /or "not fun to go against" it's no reason to balance things, and this game's community it's the only one to think so specially when talking about killer's perks.
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I don't even know why everybody said it was OP in the first place. Just as with any DMS combo, like DMS + PR, you just let go the gen when you know it would trigger. Problem solved.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Would be nice if the FOV ranged from 80-120 (instead of 87-103).
Of course this would mean that some animations would need to be updated (to avoid camera clipping among other issues).
"some animations would need to be updated" and that's why most of the suggested things in this post would never happen.
I'm pretty sure that Skull Merchant's design included heels at first. How I know? Because she still walks like she had them...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yTSoPqplkQA lot of animations in the game, including those of recently released killers, need an upgrade. But animation is one if not the most costly part of 3D graphics, both in money and time. So, guess what BHVR will never do.
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@Paternalpark said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3635425#Comment_3635425
Shooter.
Killers have a "gun", survivors don't. Fps games are not asymmetrical games.
Mistake? What mistake? Ending up on hook?
Why you complaining about afc? Are you just waiting at hook for the next survivor?
Why are you complaining about anti 3gen? Are you just waiting at the 3 gen?
Shooter. Killers have a "gun", survivors don't. Fps games are not asymmetrical games.
... and? The FoV slider affects the perspective. But fine, I would change it to "Having a FoV slider it's a basic feature in any game with a first person perspective camera since the 2000". There, happy now? Would you be able to sleep well this night?
By the way, "FPS games are not asymmetrical games"? I think Overwatch would disagree to that statement...
Mistake? What mistake? Ending up on hook?
Any mistake that make you ending up on a hook, yes, and any mistake that your teammates could made trying to get you off that hook. You obviously want for the game to cover up survivors in any of those situations so it's impossible to not get an unhook for free or you won't be saying that "those mechanics do nothing".
Why you complaining about afc? Are you just waiting at hook for the next survivor?
I'm not complaining about the AFC, I think it does pretty well it's job in not allowing face camping. Survivors like you are the ones complaining about it, implicit in your "the 3gen mechanic would do nothing like the others", and the only reason you think so is because what you want is a system that doesn't allow the killer to defend their hook in any way or form while granting you a chance to do a save, you want your saves guaranteed so you don't lose.
Why are you complaining about anti 3gen? Are you just waiting at the 3 gen?
Again, it's not me who said "the 3gen mechanic would do nothing like the others", so yet again it's you complaining for the same reasons I already said.
But I have to say, with fallacies and mental gymnastics like those you are going to do great on this forum. I know someone that could be your best pal here for sure 🤣
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@Paternalpark said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3633989#Comment_3633989
Fps? Dbd isn't a fps.
The 3gen mechanic will do nothing just like all the others.
Yall cry everytime but when it comes to live it never helps and then you guys just hold it over heads like it does.
Fps? Dbd isn't a fps.
Do you know what "FPS" means? First Person Shooter. You know why? Because the camera perspective is in "First Person".
Now, what camera perspective killers have? Yeah...
The 3gen mechanic will do nothing just like all the others.
Yeah, and the AFC also do nothing to those that wanted to have their saves always guaranteed for free.
Yall cry you want the game to have mechanics that not allow "unfair" tactics even if they already have gameplay solutions, but when they implement them you keep crying because what you really want is for the game to cover every single mistake you can make so you don't lose, so it's never enough.
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@flotaku said:
The thing you seem to fail to realise is... What are survivors supposed to do besides gens?
There is nothing, besides unhooking/healing when possible.
Whereas as a killer, you have the option to tunnel, camp, slug, etc. You can progress the game without doing those things, but survivors? They can only do gens.
There is no reason to cleanse unlit totems. There is no reason to open chests.
And there is no reason to not down a survivor when I have the chance just because it was the last survivor I hooked, either. In fact, and as much as it hurts, getting rid of one survivor as soon as you can would ever be the most efficient thing a killer can do in a match, just as "gen rushing" would always be the most efficient thing survivors can do.
The point made in this post is why one thing is totally accepted by the community, and the other is not to the point of asking for bans to those that dare to go against the Survivor's Rulebook and do it.
But seeing that the first and most upvoted answer to that is "mah survivor's feelings matter" like I said: Just forget about what they think, play however you seem fit to win and let them cry in the chat after the match.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
Generators have no feelings but survivors does. So generators will not cry after you finish to repair them.
In conclusion: Treat survivors as generators with no feelings and play to win in the fastest way you can, just as they do. Problem solved.
After all, they obviously don't care about the killer's feelings either.
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Sincerely, I don't understand how they artificially butchered some perk synergies that makes total sense to exist, but somehow something as logical as "Whatever triggers the gen block first is what stays" it's not in the game (yet, as if I have to bet that's what they are going to do to solve this).
Hoarder and Franklin's don't work with killer's items, Pain Resonance won't trigger in a gen blocked by another perk like Deadlock, but somehow triggering a gen block is able to trigger another gen block from a different perk. I mean, logic not found.
On the other hand, now that the gens have limited regressions having more slowdown perks that blocks the gen is something to be thankful of, and Buckle Up + FTP is still a thing without any signal of not being in the future, so...
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Well, it could mean two things really:
- That you are above the 1600 MMR with another killer, so when you start playing with a new one his MMR would be higher (1200 MMR, iirc) and you are already on the top bracket of the MMR again with Nemesis.
- That those P100 have a lot of hours played (as that's really what prestige marks), but not that much skill (something more common that you could think) so they are low MMR.
Either way, this is one of the reasons why they should start showing our MMRs in game, to have a better idea of how this things could happen.
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@wallas said:
The game has 4 players on one side and just 1 on the other. So what's worth more? satisfy 4 players or just 1?
Of course, on the other hand, the assassin should gain more bloodpoints or another benefit so that there is still interest in playing assassin. perks like iron will and DH suffered meaningless nerfs making the game dependent on just breaking pallet and running, without looping.
@Lixadonna said:
If Killer Mains aren't getting their 4K the devs have to coddle and make sure Killer players have it easy.
Ah, some Holy Survivor's Rulebook advocates, it seems.
I wonder what would satisfy your entitlement and power trip hunger. Should they bring back insta-healing? The god-mode healing combo? The infinite loops? The insta-blinds? Maybe be able to trap the killer in a hole until the server close up? Make those base mechanics changes for the only sake of survivors any more abusable and broken?
This game has being so survivor sided for so long that it being somewhat balanced in the last years makes some people believe that it is "killer sided" now.
@Paternalpark said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3633723#Comment_3633723
Didn't killers just get basekit shadowborn?
Oh wow yeah, you are right! After 7 years on the market the game received a FOV slider for accessibility reasons, a basic feature in any FPS game since the 2000, alongside an "anti-3genning" in form of a safe net for those survivors that do generators without putting some thought in it.
So stop with the OP basekit changes for killers already BHVR! What other balance breaking feature would you add next? Them being able to see how many hooks a survivor has? I think is time to add another basekit safe net for survivors like "Anti-slugging" or something, as obviously they don't have enough of those.
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@Chaosrider said:
Thats the fun thing,.killers could just abuse this mechnaic by dropping a second survivor at the hook. Free kill.
@Chaosrider said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3633492#Comment_3633492
So you do understand that the timer paused, while a survivors i carrierd and it pauses while a survivor down near the hook? ITs just an abuse of this system possible, and ive seen enough killer doing that. Its not a matter of survivor screwing up.
You know what is the real funny thing? That the AFC stopping if another downed survivor is in range was implemented precisly because survivors abused the fact that it didn't in the PTB to loop around the hook and force the killer to end up giving a free unhook after a chase.
Everytime a killer drops you it grants you a 25% of wiggle progress for free, so if a killer even try to do the dumb thing of using a downed survivor to stop the AFC just crawl out of the range, forcing him to either grant your hooked pal a free Deliverance, you a free wiggle escape, or simply stop camping and hook you. Super abusable, indeed.
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@Mandy said:
To implement something like this is a massive undertaking - and I cannot emphasis how much of a massive undertaking it is, it would require the whole game to be built from the ground up essentially. It's not a decision that could be taken likely and there's no plans at all to implement this given the limitations that we face.
I'm not going to discuss the number of employees that we have in total, but I will remind you that's across all projects, including the business side of the studio. That's not the people that's on DbD which is a much smaller amount.
I understand that the whole company it's not behind DbD, but that doesn't change the fact that the dev team it's not 5 guys in a garage making their first game like many people seems to believe (including me, I thought DbD was your first game that started as a passion project).
And with all due respect, from one programmer to another, whoever read the documentation and understand it would see that what you said there is an overstatement. The engine already give you all the functions you need to make it work and you only need to implement them. Like I said, the worst part would be make the interface for reproducing the replay file in game. In fact, if I have to bet I'm pretty sure that you used something similar to make the in game trailers for the game.
Fortnite implemented it way after the game was made, Rocket League also did it (with one of the best replay features I had ever see where you can literally edit a whole video with FXs in game). If you have your reasons to not do it fine (even if it is just server costs), but don't say that it is impossible to do because obviously it's not.
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@Mooks said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3633312#Comment_3633312
I thought everyone understood that money/resources were the main factor why something couldn’t be done.
but you almost act like BHVR has unlimited money and just doesn’t want to do it - which is not the case.
these employees you mention have an income, services need to be paid, and the question is if something is worth the resources - and you don’t know if the implementation of the Unreal Replay System is that easy for an existing game like DbD when it is fully known it was never intended to become this big and the code is a convoluted mess… (and pretty sure it was implemented on an older version of Unreal and ‚only‘ upgraded to 4.27 which may also be a big factor in it)
and you don’t know if the implementation of the Unreal Replay System is that easy for an existing game like DbD
Yes, I do. Have you read what I sent? The game being multiplayer already fulfills most of the prerequisites. They only need to add a 6º "player" that acts as a recording proxy and then send that data to a file, something that the system does automatically.
If you need any more proof on how easy it is, just look at a video tutorial in Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fEGDY7mg3sOr hell, if you are so much interested, download Unreal Engine and try it yourself. I think the most laborious part of all this would be make the interface for watching the replays.
but you almost act like BHVR has unlimited money and just doesn’t want to do it - which is not the case.
Like I said in another post: A company with 1300 employees and investors like NetEase, dozens of games under their sleeve...
Behaviour Interactive Inc. is a Canadian video game developer based in Montreal. The studio is best known for the mutliplayer horror game Dead by Daylight.... with their main license having 60 million players buying DLCs and microtransactions, a spin off game, all the revenue from the mobile version, and another spin off being made and a movie coming.
Infinite money? Of course not. But people talk about them like they are some kind of indie studio to the point I though they was until I started looking. So again, they are not an small company with limited resources, they are a huge company with lot of resources and money flowing to be able to do whatever they must, so if they don't, it's obviously simply because they don't want.
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Ah, another "I don't even understand how the system works, but it must be made stronger as it doesn't do anything" post.
Next time the killer is camping you tell your teammates to either trade, unhook you or simply get out to the other side of the map so the AFC can do it's work. And remember that you have to unhook yourself manually once the bar is filled, it doesn't go automatically.
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@Chaosrider said:
@Raconteurminator @pigslittlepet But its fine to have free hooks or trading into slug and tunnel? Killer double standards as always.
Maybe "Bhvr never even tried to fix anything related to killer strategies" because they understand that fine, a killer standing just in front of the hook made almost impossible to make a save, so we are going to grant the hooked survivor a free BT with haste, remove unhook grabs, and add an AFC system so the killer have to move away from the hook granting survivors a chance to do a save while the killer can still defend his hook and punish survivor for their mistakes.
But you don't want to have a chance so you or your teammates can fix your mistakes, what you want is for the game to cover every possible mistake you made so you are never punished for them. In other words, what you want is to never lose.
That's the only possible reason for you people to still complaining at this point.
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@mikewelk said:
Not coming anytime soon. Would need a new game engine is what a game developer said or it's just speculation, forgot which one. Would make sense considering the spaghetti code and bugged SPECTATING.
@Caiman said:
It'd be nice, but I really doubt the game can handle it.
@AmpersandUnderscore said:
While this would be a great feature, the current game just doesn't/can't support it. The devs would have to build replay functionality into the game from the very beginning, so at this point it's too late to add.
If they ever do DbD 2, maybe though.
@OrangeBear said:
I agree but devs have already said in a q and a before that they don't think it's worth the investment. There needs to be a lot of demand for it to make it worth it and i am not sure if enough people are interested.
Overview of the Replay system for recording and playback of gameplayAnd yes, DbD is using Unreal 4.27
There is no excuse to not implement it aside from "It would cost money", which is the main reason for BHVR to not do things like cross-progression (as they would have to pay Sony and that's why they were asking if you would not mind your DLCs not crossprogress).
That's it. That's the only reason. And even if it wasn't, just a reminder that BHVR is a company with 1300 employees that recently recieved and investment from NetEase with a movie incoming among other things, so it's not like they are short on resources to do whatever they must.
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@Paternalpark said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3633039#Comment_3633039
I'm around there as well.
I dnt even play well, my perks play for me as killer.
And what perks are those? Just curious, because with my main it's just sweaty after sweaty match so I would love to use those perks that allow me to do nothing like I'm in low MMR playing against SoloQs with no game sense at all...
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3633014#Comment_3633014
How many outcomes the MMR system have, again? Oh yes, 3: Win, draw and lose!
But we're not talking about the MMR system, are we? We're talking about the kill rate.
Again: Your model only incorporates TWO outcomes. There are FIVE. Which is why your model diverges from reality to such an extreme degree. The MMR does not distinguish between a 0K and a 1K, or a 3K and a 4K, but the killrate does. Thus, the 4K, even though to the MMR it is not a separate outcome, still influences the relationship between killrate and winrate. This is the part that you are missing. This is your blind spot. As illustrated by:
That's the only outcomes that you are interested about. If you want to make mental gymnastics about the 0K to the 4K and how funnily enough the mathematical truth and fact that is "a kill rate of 40%, or 1.6 kills per match [...] resulting in an average winrate of 0%" is "an obviously extremely improbably scenario" somehow when that's exactly what an average means, just because you want to prove me wrong and you don't know how, yet again: It's on you.
You still do not grasp that your model mandates 0 wins on any kill rate below 50%. Not as an incidental thing, but as a hard-lined rule.
Your model states that in any dataset where the killer has a killrate below 50%, there cannot be a single trial recorded with 3 or more kills.
Otherwise the average would not be 0%.
Take a dataset of 1000 matches, with a total kill count of 1999. How high do you consider the probability that in those 1000 matches, not even -one- had more than 2 kills?
Me: "Yes, 2.4 kill per match on average to be exact. Which in terms of MMR means killers wins 40% of their games (3K), while survivors also win 40% of their games (Escapes in 40% of matches)."
You: "But we're not talking about the MMR system, are we?" followed by yet more mental gymnastics.
Have I to say anything more? That's how you work. Again, ignore 90% of what has being said, twist the last 10% with wrong logic until you can form an strawman fallacy to use as an argument. That's it. That's why I simply stop answering to your nonsense most of the time, because my only options are start pointing out each fallacy and faulty logic you use until you start being coherent or give up or simply ignore you and let you say whatever you want.
I'm going to just comment on one thing:
You still do not grasp that your model mandates 0 wins on any kill rate below 50%. Not as an incidental thing, but as a hard-lined rule.
It's not my model, I don't mandate anything, that's how AVERAGES WORKS. It's a mathematical fact! If a win is 3K or up and a killer does ON AVERAGE only 2K, it means that ON AVERAGE he doesn't win any game! ON AVERAGE! A simple concept yet so far from your grasp that you still says nonsense because of it. That, or you twist it on purpose so yet again, you can make some kind of strawman + ad hominem against me because "It's you who doesn't understand my twisted logic, so you are at fault here".
Either way, time to chose option 2.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3632981#Comment_3632981
Me: *Explains how DBD killers have five possible match outcomes, and that's why a model that only considers two outcomes is not applicable*
You: "So a model used in the fighting game genre for years is not applicable?"
Also you:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3632969#Comment_3632969
But yes, bluntly, yes. A system used in fighting games with binary outcomes cannot be applied to a game with five outcomes. If you'd read what I wrote, you'd have figured that out.
A fighting game doesn't have a binary outcome, it has 3: Win, Draw, Lose.
How many outcomes the MMR system have, again? Oh yes, 3: Win, draw and lose!
That's the only outcomes that you are interested about. If you want to make mental gymnastics about the 0K to the 4K and how funnily enough the mathematical truth and fact that is "a kill rate of 40%, or 1.6 kills per match [...] resulting in an average winrate of 0%" is "an obviously extremely improbably scenario" somehow when that's exactly what an average means, just because you want to prove me wrong and you don't know how, yet again: It's on you.
Here is the abridged explanation:
@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3632877#Comment_3632877
Yes, 2.4 kill per match on average to be exact. Which in terms of MMR means killers wins 40% of their games (3K), while survivors also win 40% of their games (Escapes in 40% of matches).
The key here is that just as the game, MMR is not symmetrical. Killers need a 3K to win, survivors only need to escape themselves to win. The only exception is the "draw" condition, as even if a survivor draw with the killer (in other words, escape through the hatch) in game counts as a full escape even if their MMR doesn't move.
Some people doesn't understand that, just as what happens in fighting games (a genre DbD have a lot in common in terms of balancing, among other things) even if you get to a perfect 5/5 winrate between two characters at high skill play in terms of balancing, there is no possible way of physically guarantee that everytime those two characters play against each other they would always grant their users a 50% win rate because a lot of factors (including the skill of such users).
That's why you have to center your attention on the mathematical average, which again, in DbD is a 60% kill rate on average, which would mean a 40% winrate on average for everybody, as for the killer the MMR works as a "1v4" where you have to kill at least 3 rivals to wins, but for survivors the MMR works as a "1v1", where you only need to escape by yourself to win.
In other words, if in high MMR there is a 39% escape rate that means that yes, the game is killer sided but just by a 1% more kill rate on average than it should.
Everyone understood it, you are still saying things like "Killer winrate can only be taken from the percentage of 3Ks and 4Ks, NOT from the kill rate." without obviously knowing what AVERAGE means yet, even after 2 pages of a post in the day where I explained it to you in detail.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3632967#Comment_3632967
Then you cannot count Hatch Escapes as a win.
"The only exception is the "draw" condition, as even if a survivor draw with the killer (in other words, escape through the hatch) in game counts as a full escape even if their MMR doesn't move."
I never said that the system is perfect. In fact, in my opinion the hatch should be removed from the game and survivors only able to either win or lose.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3632965#Comment_3632965
I think it's more nuanced than that
Just as a quick explanation:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3632962#Comment_3632962
Yes, 2.4 kill per match on average to be exact. Which in terms of MMR means killers wins 40% of their games (3K), while survivors also win 40% of their games (Escapes in 40% of matches).
This calculation only works if the only possible outcomes are 2Ks and 3Ks. But killers can get five possible outcomes, which are 0K, 1K, 2K, 3K and 4K. The distribution of these outcomes isn't even or logical either, which is why you can't take a specific kill rate and calculate what the resulting winrate will be.
Using Batusalen's model would, for instance, result in an obviously extremely improbably scenario on a lot of other kill rates. For example, a kill rate of 40%, or 1.6 kills per match, would produce only 2Ks or lower, resulting in an average winrate of 0%. And the only way you can get an average of 0, barring the inclusion of negative values (And as far as I know, no killer has ever won -1 match) is by having no value other than 0.
IE: a killrate below 50% would mandate absolutely zero matches ever being won.
So yeah, Batusalen's model is lacking nuance. A ton of it. To the point where it's not applicable. Nightlight kind of proves that, with much higher winrates on lower kill rates. The only role kill rates play in determining balance is that they indirectly indicate the winrate for survivors. If killers kill 55% of survivors, then the other 45% of survivors escape.
Killer winrate can only be taken from the percentage of 3Ks and 4Ks, NOT from the kill rate. As I mentioned above, Wesker's kill rate is higher than Nurse's, but his winrate is lower. The distribution of outcomes varies from killer to killer, and there's way, way too many factors to include, many of which are simply not mathematically predictable.
Let alone by a model that only considers two of the five possible outcomes of a trial at a time.
To the point where it's not applicable.
So, a model that has being used in the fighting game genre for years to balance their characters is not applicable? Damn! Call Capcom and Namco, they had being doing balancing wrong all this time.
And just with that, just because you still doesn't understand and don't know what it's being talked about but still want to prove me wrong somehow, it's how you start saying things that doesn't make any sense.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3632954#Comment_3632954
No, as usual: you state what your perception is. And then I explain why you are incorrect.
As demonstrated once again here.
No, I explain to you things in detail and then you proceed to simply ignore 90% of what I said and start twisting the other 10% with mental gymnastics and fallacies.
That's what usually happens with you, as was demonstrated in that other post (and any other were you have posted, especially the one where I pointed every single fallacy you said) were I already explained to you everything I had to explain about this topic.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3632962#Comment_3632962
I think it's more nuanced than that, as you keep saying wins and losses which is an entirely personal perception.
I will agree with your larger point, although I feel the game should trend towards 50 instead of 60, as you need to account for Hatch escapes, which is hardly a win.
It's not a personal perception:
The Skill-Based Matchmaking Rating, often abbreviated as "SBMM" or "MMR", is a hidden scoring system used to match Players together for ranked Trials in Dead by Daylight. The system has been in use since 8 September 2021 and replaced the previous matchmaking system, which had matched Players based on their Grades. The Skill-Based Matchmaking Rating uses a hidden score that is influenced by the Player's performance in ranked Trials.There is no way for Players to know their specific score. The SkiIt's literally how the MMR works.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3632857#Comment_3632857
How does that work out?
Shouldn't a 60% KR mean that Killers are managing, on average, two Kills trending towards three?
Likewise, does a 39% ER not mean that one, trending towards two, Survivors escape the match?
Yes, 2.4 kill per match on average to be exact. Which in terms of MMR means killers wins 40% of their games (3K), while survivors also win 40% of their games (Escapes in 40% of matches).
The key here is that just as the game, MMR is not symmetrical. Killers need a 3K to win, survivors only need to escape themselves to win. The only exception is the "draw" condition, as even if a survivor draw with the killer (in other words, escape through the hatch) in game counts as a full escape even if their MMR doesn't move.
Some people doesn't understand that, just as what happens in fighting games (a genre DbD have a lot in common in terms of balancing, among other things) even if you get to a perfect 5/5 winrate between two characters at high skill play in terms of balancing, there is no possible way of physically guarantee that everytime those two characters play against each other they would always grant their users a 50% win rate because a lot of factors (including the skill of such users).
That's why you have to center your attention on the mathematical average, which again, in DbD is a 60% kill rate on average, which would mean a 40% winrate on average for everybody, as for the killer the MMR works as a "1v4" where you have to kill at least 3 rivals to wins, but for survivors the MMR works as a "1v1", where you only need to escape by yourself to win.
In other words, if in high MMR there is a 39% escape rate that means that yes, the game is killer sided but just by a 1% more kill rate on average than it should.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3632857#Comment_3632857
Not going to explain to you again, in excruciating detail, in any way and form possible, why a 60% ON AVERAGE kill rate means 40% ON AVERAGE winrate for both sides.
You never explained it at all. You looked at the AVERAGE statistics as they were and outright claimed they were a mathematical impossibility. You were furiously denying observable reality.
If the kill rate is lower than 60% ON AVERAGE, the game is ON AVERAGE not killer sided. Period. You could come up with all the mental gymnastics and fallacies you want, it's an empirical mathematical fact.
There was nothing empirical about it. Your theory was entirely that: Theoretical. The empirical, IE: the stats that were shown, disagreed with your theory.
I even pointed out to you that the model you used would mandate that any killer with an average kill rate below 50% would have an average win rate of 0%, which would necessitate that they had never gotten a 3K+ in even one singular match.
If you leave your theory behind for a moment and look at what is observable in the statistics shown on Nightlight at the moment, we can see that killers, on average, are at a 48% winrate. Survivors are, on average, at a 45% winrate.
Which of those two numbers is higher?
Because right now, you are fully claiming that 45%>48%.
You never explained it at all.
A multi-page post where I, again, explained it to you in all ways possible says the contrary. And yet, you still doesn't know what average means.
And with that, I don't have anything more to tell you here. Yet again, go read that post where you had all the explanation you need and if you still doesn't understand it, as it was then: It's on you.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3632775#Comment_3632775
Killers win far more than they lose, survivors lose a bit more than they win. The game is not, in any way, survivor sided at the moment.
true mathematical balance is 60% kill rate on average
Already proven to not necessarily be true. In fact, looking at the stats at the moment, it shows an average killer winrate of a little over 48%, with survivors winning a little under 45%. That's pretty close to balanced, just slightly favouring killers.
Not going to explain to you again, in excruciating detail, in any way and form possible, why a 60% ON AVERAGE kill rate means 40% ON AVERAGE winrate for both sides.
If the kill rate is lower than 60% ON AVERAGE, the game is ON AVERAGE not killer sided. Period. You could come up with all the mental gymnastics and fallacies you want, it's an empirical mathematical fact.
And even if it wasn't and you were right, then time for survivors to stop using that number to argue that the game is killer sided without even understanding how things work and what it really represents, like the person I was talking to ("According to Nightlight, the current Kill Rate is 55%. So DBD is Killer-sided on average.") or our friend Pulsar over here:
@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3632678#Comment_3632678
How could the game possibly be Survivor-sided?
The last official stats we have show that Survivors have a 39% escape rate at "high mmr".
Killers have been massively buffed in the last two years. I would actually go as far to say that the game is Killer-sided at an average level.
Once again, I am asking you, politely, to prove your point. How is the game Survivor-sided?
Oh, also, Adrenaline activates once after every gen is done. It's a fine perk. Shouldn't wake you up against Freddy though.
"The last official stats we have show that Survivors have a 39% escape rate at 'high mmr'" That means the game is on average 1% killer sided in high MMR, so you just proved those 2 years of "massive buffs" was needed and it's just after those buffs that the game started to be balanced / slightly killer sided on average.
So congrats BHVR, you at last somewhat balanced the game and ended the survivor supremacy.
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The basekit BT already makes you a less desirable target after unhooking, unless you make it so. If the killer hits you in the 10 seconds so you can't use any other Endurance perk, you still have 10 seconds of free haste + the hit bonus speed to get the hell out of there to a safe loop.
"There should be no reason that you're completely denied of perks like DH and off the record" Changing it would only make more people weaponize the base BT even more instead of using it as what it is: A help so you make it to a safe loop even if the killer decide to go for you again. In other words, there is plenty of reasons to not do it. The same with making the survivor "lose collision".
So, how about no? What if we start developing some game sense and stop pretending for the game to cover every single mistake we make in a match, instead?
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@Ghoste said:
I feel like killer should be able to have 5 or six perks.
4 perks is plenty. If you're struggling, you're either using sub-optimal builds, playing one of the weaker Killers, or just need to improve. A good Nurse or Blight, for example, doesn't need any perks to win, let alone 5 or 6.
the game is pretty survivor sided
According to Nightlight, the current Kill Rate is 55%. So DBD is Killer-sided on average. In fact, not a single Killer is averaging below 50% right now.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/ISW51XMJBQTF/dbd-nightlight-kill-rate-jpg.jpg
every survivor we have gotten in the past year just have perks killers can't even counter.
The only Survivor perk in the past year that became meta was Made For This, which has since been heavily nerfed. No other perk is even close to meta. In fact, most of them have been garbage recently.
I can't believe I have to say this yet again, but a 55% killrate in DbD is not being killer-sided on average, but the contrary.
Thanks to the assymetrical nature of the game and how the MMR system work, true mathematical balance is 60% kill rate on average (reason of why devs aim to that number). In other words, having less than that means the game is survivor sided on average.
Also, "No other perk is even close to meta"? Logical, with this powerhouses of perks being the most used ones:
I mean, it's not like survivors are missing any more strong perks. Also, guess what?
It's not like killers have got any hot perk that everyone is using, either.
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Are you going to also restrict them to exit the game, shut off their PC / Console or remove the LAN cable, too? Because any of those things would have the same effect than just pressing the "leave" button. Alt+F4 and problem solved.
Seriously, where do you people get this ideas from?
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Wait... is this a call to nerf Dying Light? Really? The perk isn't even worth running!
Think that Resilience is a 9% repair bonus, Deja Vu is 6%, Prove Thyself is technically a minimum of 20% (10% per survivor with 2 on the same gen). Meaning, you need from 2 to 7 non-obsession hooks just to make survivors with 1 of those perks repair at normal speed before it negatively impact them. If someone (like me) brings Resilience + Deja Vu, that's a 15% and 5 hooks would be needed. And that without taking in count toolboxes.
All while the obsession is not only unaffected by it, but has a bonus 33% in healing and unhooking. Sorry, but there are a lot of better slowdown perks and if anything what Dying Light needs is a buff. A huge one.
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3628963#Comment_3628963
So it got bigger temporarly, and then? It droped. Why would we pinpoint towards SBMM in relation to high playerbase when we can also pinpoint on great licence, good marketing or simply.. corona lockdowns? Those reasons sound way more likely for the increase of playerbase. We should rather ask the question: Why did the playerbase drop from there on? Why do people loose interest in the game? What is your theory on that matter. Mine is pretty close to the video, thats why i used it as a reference.
Like i said, i dont think SBMM is the only issue overall. Maps, bad killer design and overall questionable decisions in the last few years all took part of what may be bad for the player base in the long run.
EDIT: I want to ask you a few questions about SBMM, since you think it is not the reason people became (pretty aprupt) way more tryhard.
Do you think a system that encourages tryhard playstyle (SBMM is clearly that in comparison to Bloodpoints and old ranking system) does not have impact on the playstyle of people?
Do you think, if there would not be any form of ranking system, people would play more chill / meme more?
Do you think a system that encourages tryhard playstyle (SBMM is clearly that in comparison to Bloodpoints and old ranking system) does not have impact on the playstyle of people?
When it is not even integrated in the in-game ranking system in any way or form and only used in the backend for matchmaking? Like I said, I don't think so. In fact, using your logic, you can argue that the Bloodpoint system also promote a tryhard playstyle to get the most BP possible in every game.
Do you think, if there would not be any form of ranking system, people would play more chill / meme more?
No, not at all. Those who want to play chill / for fun / meme would not mind of winning or losing in the first place, so they would do it regardless of whatever ranked system is in the game.
Like I said, the game becoming more "tryhard", which in reality is just people playing to win, it's the normal and natural evolution of any competitive PvP game where you play against other players. Like I discussed in another post, even in true casual games like Fall Guys there are people that would try hard to win. It's just how it is.
We can get to the old days of online gaming to get even a bigger picture of this. In games like CoD:MW2 there wasn't a proper ranking system, only a prestige system that was basically a leveling system most like DbD also have. Nobody cared about how the game did matchmaking and you normally got paired with people with much higher or lower prestige than you. People still played to win, people still got salty and you still had your toxic behavior over the forced lobby voice chat the game had.
The same could be said about TF2. You could maybe see a conga form at the start of the game from nowhere when they added dancing, one that even enemies would get into, but after the initial laugh it's back to win the match. And when I played, there wasn't any kind of ranking system in the game. Even in Overwatch unraked modes this kind of thing happened. The difference is that in OW, if someone got too mad at you for not playing as a high ranking pro player, you can always told them "politely" to go play ranked.
In fact, do you know who are the ones that had told me "You should try to have fun for once and stop tryharding" after a match in DbD? Bully squads. Yep. The same ones that bring 4 DH, 3 Saboteur, 3 Unbreakable, 3 DS / OTR, FTP + Buckle Up, 2 flashlights and 2 gigaboxes with BNP and pretend to win by not letting me do absolutely anything are the same ones that when you don't let them get away with it start to say that you are boring and should play for fun more. The irony charts get through the roof.
So again, no, don't having a ranking system would not make a competitive PvP game where you play against strangers any more chill, as it's by design that people would play it to win and sooner or later most people will. Having a ranking system in the game (not to be confused with a skill based match making system, by the way), more so if having an high rank could lead to potential money in form of tournaments and such, only accelerates it.
EDIT:
Why did the playerbase drop from there on? Why do people loose interest in the game? What is your theory on that matter. Mine is pretty close to the video, thats why i used it as a reference.
It could have being because many factors, starting with retention rates (meaning, not every single new player that started playing the game would keep playing it after a period of time) and, like you said, perfectly the reasons mentioned in the video. I just don't think that SBMM had anything to do with that either, less so taking in count that again, a new player won't even know that the SBMM is even a thing.
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@Alen_Starkly said:
I was the only one who brought a non-meta perk build (perk roulette). I brought a Terrormisu for everyone. No-one used a map offering. The RNG gave the killer a favorable map for them. I got tunneled out at 4 gens left for no good reason . I did not BM, I did nothing bad. The killer ended up hardcore tunneling me until I died. My Terrormisu was wasted, but the killer got a fat BP gain from the match.
How is this fair?? And why is this allowed?? Why am I being punished for nothing? Why is the killer being rewarded for hard-core tunneling in a match where no-one used a map offering, they got a favorable map, and 2 of us brought BP offerings for everyone?
Matches like this one are miserable . Why is this not bannable? Why can I not deny the killer the BP gain from my Terrormisu? I would understand being tunneled if I used the Garden of Joy offering. But this is ridiculous.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/2K9BLQEAKPI2/screenshot-969.jpg
Why is this not bannable?
Because that would be like banning people from Fortnite that kills a player 10 seconds after landing without giving them the chance to even grab a gun. It sucks, but it's how the game is.
Eliminating a survivor as soon as possible is the most logical thing to do in this game and no amount of basekit changes would ever change that, just as doing gens as fast as possible would be always the most logical thing to do for survivors.
Time to accept it.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3629026#Comment_3629026
First: "Now, the way SBMM is implemented in DbD, that's a point worth discussing." It's not like I didn't already addressed that the way BHVR implemented an SBMM to DbD "leaves much to be desired".
That's why I said that when we're talking about SBMM, it's specifically about SBMM as opposed to the old rank system.
You should learn what SBMM and Skill Based Ranking really is, so you don't make the error of thinking that "Taking in count every action that happen inside a match" is something exclusive of one system in particular. Or, using your logic, you can make an SBMM that rewards "fun" too.
Yes, but that is specifically what was changed when we moved from the system called ranks to the system called SBMM. I know that ranks is a form of skill-based matchmaking, but they're two different terms in the colloquialisms of DBD. 'SBMM', in DBD terms, specifically refers to the system we have now, as opposed to the rank system we had before its implementation. Even the devs use this language, because the system of SBMM was specifically introduced as a novelty.
That is what I was I was referring to with my comment. You don't need to get all up in yourself every time you see my name on these forums, bud.
But then, even using your logic, they implementing an SBMM is not what "sucked the fun out of the game" (somehow), but the way BHVR implemented the SBMM was. So, you are agreeing with me, right?
Also, the only problem with your logic (surprisingly, you are being almost coherent with your argument this time and I can only maybe point out an ambiguity of language fallacy... I'm so proud of you) is that you didn't even explained how the change to the SBMM somehow "sucked out the fun of the game". Because even following your logic of "the old system rewarded fun", that system is still in the game in form of Grades, which is completely visible and up front in it with the SBMM being hided and only affecting match making, meaning that like I said, most people even today doesn't even know it is a thing.
Like I said in another post: "The question here is how something that only works in the backend, is not mention in game once, most people even today doesn't know is a thing and doesn't affect gameplay at all can have that effect in the playerbase. The reasonable answer here is: It doesn't, and never did."
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3628959#Comment_3628959
The big difference is in what Ranks pushed as a win condition versus what SBMM pushes as a win condition.
SBMM demands kill or survival. Ranks demanded a full breadth of gameplay. Getting eight hooks but no kills was rewarded under Ranks, getting one hook and camping that to death gets rewarded under SBMM. Genrushing and getting out ASAP gets rewarded under SBMM, while grabbing a totem, taking protection hits, going for a safe unhook and more get rewarded in Ranks.
It's -almost- accurate to say that Ranks rewards fun games while SBMM only rewards sweating. And in that regard, yes, I feel confident that SBMM has cultivated a very anti-fun mindset.
Not as anti-fun as your haughty attitude from post 1 though, you really need to get some self-control.
Not as anti-fun as your haughty attitude from post 1 though, you really need to get some self-control.
With you? After the "interactions" we had till now in other posts? Nah. The day I see you not discuss by cherry picking, twisting logic and using fallacies maybe I would try to be a little more civil in our "debates".
The big difference is in what Ranks pushed as a win condition versus what SBMM pushes as a win condition.
First: "Now, the way SBMM is implemented in DbD, that's a point worth discussing." It's not like I didn't already addressed that the way BHVR implemented an SBMM to DbD "leaves much to be desired".
Second: Fun fact, there is nothing preventing BHVR from refactoring the SBMM to work exactly like Ranks did but instead of pips making it add or subtract points from a rating used for both ranking and match-making. Nothing. In other words and using your logic, you can make an SBMM that rewards "fun" too.
You should learn what SBMM and Skill Based Ranking really is, so you don't make the error of thinking that "Taking in count every action that happen inside a match" is something exclusive of one system in particular.
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3628658#Comment_3628658
TL;DR: Even if BHVR implementation of a SBMM leaves much to be desired, it has little to do with the community getting more "tryhard" and it would had happened even with the old system (if not more, even if just to see that Iri 1 rank on the menu).
I think this is not the case, because we have been there and we noticed the difference. Like i said , the day it went live, people changed. Many became more sweaty, others followed over time. Both sides by the way.
People strive for what is optimal. The only way to gain MMR is to play effective, so they do. Before that, opimal was 2 pips and gain a lot of bloodpoints. It was not exactly optimal to tunnel 1 person out of the game but rather 12 hook while pressure gens.
I would step further and argue that if SBMM and pip ranking would be removed tomorrow, so only Bloodpoints are the "win condition", most would focus on Bloodpoint builds and bloodpoint focus playstyles.
You are in my opinion right that SBMM is not the only thing why it is the way it is, but it had a major roll.
Well, I would only say that the SBMM was implemented in August of 2021, with October 2021 having the second highest peak in players in Steam (100.416 concurrent players) in the game story and in December of the same year was when the game went free in Epic. Meaning the data we have supports my theory that was around that time the player base of the game got bigger.
Between that and the Ranks system being implemented directly into the game, which would have given even more reason to play hardcore than an invisible system that new players don't even know exist, I maintain my theory and claim that the SBMM had nothing to do with the rise of tryhards in the game and would had being even worst with the old system.
But if you still believe it had, that's your opinion and I respect it.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3628504#Comment_3628504
I think we're talking about SBMM as in 'SBMM vs. Ranks' and in that regard, yes, it's absolutely SBMM that's sucking the fun out of the game.
Like I said in another post, Ranks was an even more proper ranked SBMM system that what it is in the game right now, not differing much of what most of the hardcore competitive games do right now, and it was implemented directly into the game unlike the current SBMM which only works in the backend, so you could see your rank which would make you more inclined to tryhard to see it get higher.
For example, the ranking system in MTGA is almost the same, the only difference being it only counts wins to "pip" and loses to "depip" and when you reach what would be "Iri 1" in DbD you enter the "Top 500", which has a separate MMR system where you can literally be the number 1 of the game that season.
Now, I would ask you to explain your reasoning and logic behind your claim and how if Ranks were still in the game it would make it more fun somehow, but I don't want to debate your fallacies over and over yet again.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3628543#Comment_3628543
First chase cost 2 Gens is as frequently as 1 death before 2 Gens done. A match can go extreme to both sides. Except there is chance for killer to turn it into 2 or more kill. Its rare for survivors to get 2 escapes with a teammate death at 4 Gens.
You were pointing "survivors think a chase is fun when it last 5 Gens" as it should be a standard to survivors' opinion.
I just telling a chase last 5 Gens is more to killers' expectation (not survivors). You can search and find comments in forum that killers told survivors to play better and try not taking a single hit after survivors complain about making 5 Gens chase and died to Noed.
Again: Re-read and not take it so literally.
What I meant with that is what survivors want are "interactions" with the killer where there is high chances to win, and those high chances are given by strong loops. Of course nobody would literally said or expect for the game to always guarantee they can loop the killer for the whole game without getting caught, because even the most hardcore survivor main in the forums would laugh at them.
Yet again, I still don't understand what you mean with "5 gens chases are killers expectations" or how that has anything to do with some killers saying "play better". Maybe language barrier or something, but whatever.
Also, "First chase cost 2 Gens is as frequently as 1 death before 2 Gens done". Completely disagree, at least no when you reach certain MMR and definitely not in my games. For that to happen it has to be a bully squad that is more interested in making me have a bad time than doing gens and failing to do so. That, or I'm playing Nurse... maybe Spirit, if I have my ears clean.
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3628519#Comment_3628519
Running a baby killer for 5 gens around in The game by predroping every pallet is not nearly as fun and interactive as 60 seconds chase against a strong Hillbilly on Gasheaven. It has not that much to do with the lenght of a chase but rather the quality.
Keep in mind the most fun killers are actually also strong chase killers, but not definitive anti loop / free hit killers. Those killers can, when played well get kills faster then free hit killers like Knight or Dull Merchant. Yet, they are the <3 ones.
I am sorry but this makes me a little bit baffled that some players assume such things. Your assumtions are very far away from the truth, sorry.
Who is the more powerful killer: Blight or Knight?
Who is more beloved by survivors: Blight or Knight?
Answering this questions by yourself should already be a strong indicator why arguments like these cant have much truth in it.
First, you also missed the point of what I said. I don't know how you can even claim that I'm "very far away from the truth" when you didn't even addressed the main point of it. Like I said to @C3Tooth, re-read what I said and don't take it so literally.
Second, your argument makes no sense because chase and anti-loop are not the same thing (Nemesis have anti-loop power, but not a chase power) but you are comparing them both. One of the main reasons of Knight being hated is precisely that his zone denial prevents you from looping him for long. Blight, on the other hand, is strong at chase but doesn't have pretty good anti-loop capabilities beyond breaking pallets with his rush for longer that you would by just kicking it and maybe going around some sorter loops, unless you spent copious amounts of time dominating the bugginess of the collision system and start doing hug techs.
In other words, it doesn't have anything to do with what I really said in the first place, but if it did, you would be proving me right. And to answer your question: None of those two killers are "beloved" by the community, just one more hated than the other. I can even argue that I had seen more petitions to nerf Blight than to nerf Knight.
@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3628504#Comment_3628504
In theory, you have a solid argument. In practice, the SBMM created a problem to solve something that was not an issue anyway. Maybe an issue, but nobody had a problem with it because it worked. My beginner/noob me and also friends and communities i am around never had a matchmaking problem at that time.
On the other hand, the day SBMM got implemented, people changed from chill to tryhard, and it has not stoped ever since. I completly agree with what Choy says about this in his video.
If you are right, the question here is how something that only works in the backend, is not mention in game once, most people even today doesn't know is a thing and doesn't affect gameplay at all can have that effect in the playerbase. The reasonable answer here is: It doesn't, and never did. People don't stop blaming the SBMM for the rise of "sweatiness" of the game maybe because it implementation coincided with a rise on the player base or something, but this is most than probably just a false cause.
In my opinion, the rise of "sweatiness" is just the natural effect of the game being a competitive PvP game by design that people would play to win, even if some insist in call it a "party" game just because that was the intention of the dev team at the start. In other words, just as what happened with Super Smash Brothers: Sakurai wanted people to play the game as a 4 player party fighting game with items, but at the end of the day it was a fighting game so people played it 1v1 to win like any other fighting game.
In short, I don't think that the implementation of the SBMM had anything to do with that, or that they changing it would change the fact that people will play the game to win. Hell, you can even argue that what Ranks was before they transformed it in Grades is even more a proper SBMM system that what it is now in the game, with it's brackets, it's in game ranks and seasonal reset included. Add some initial positional ranked games at the start of the season to the old system and it would not differ much of what games like Overwatch do (did? I stopped playing even before the whole "2" fiasco).
TL;DR: Even if BHVR implementation of a SBMM leaves much to be desired, it has little to do with the community getting more "tryhard" and it would had happened even with the old system (if not more, even if just to see that Iri 1 rank on the menu).
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3628519#Comment_3628519
I never see anyone in forum say a chase should take 5 Gens.
But I have seen alot killers say survivors to play better after they make 5 Gens chase but did not escape. Or "just dont get hit 4head" an entire game.
So well...being chased for 5 Gens is killers' expectation of a normal game, not survivors.
I think you missed the point completely, but aside from that what you said doesn't even make any sense. How is "being chased for 5 gens" going to be a killer expectation when the problem killers face is that in your average game you lose 2 to 3 gens before you do your second hook?
Seriously, I think you should re-read what I said, and maybe not take it so literally.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3628363#Comment_3628363
At survivor's POV, there is still 50/50 game play.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/B1B1QAU63U09/image.png
Note that they just make Trapper exactly like this, put a trap at loops mid chase. Either stay at loops and get hit, or leave loops and catched with his Haste.
Do you want to know why they are trying to make every killer better at chase (with loops obviously being the chase extender per excellence)?
Because survivors don't stop saying that chase and interaction with the killer is the fun part of playing survivor, while doing gens is the boring part, and BHVR is trying to do whatever it takes so they don't have to simply make generators take longer (i.e. the healing nerf alongside the regression nerf) even if gen getting repaired too fast is a problem for killers. With this in mind, the best solution is simply make chases shorter, so they don't have to make gens take longer. Technically, it should be a win-win for everybody: Survivors get more chases and interaction with killers while killers don't get that much affected by gen repair times being low without having to make longer what survivors claim is the worst part of their gameplay.
But apparently what survivors meant by "chase is the fun part" obviously was "being chased for 5 gens while having advantage in loops is the fun part", not "having more chases in the game and having to really be good at mindgaming and wasting the killers time is the fun part".
So, here we are, with content creators now claiming that "anti-loop" is the problem with the game without asking themselves why every killer is getting better at chase and anti-looping.
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@xEa said:
I randomly stumbled across this video and i use it as a base discussion point since it is for me so far the best summerization of DBD's problems, without me having to write a big wall of text. Its only 12 minutes long, so it wont go super deep, but manages to bring the issues to the point. I will add some notes at the bottom tho. Feel free to give your 2 cents, no matter if you agree or not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC16f_n7J1I
Note #1 Maps in DBD are overall poorly designed and it gets worse with every update. Borgo and Nostromo being the current low. The core issue is besides that the range within the mappool can shift between very survivor sided to very killer sided that the maps are now designed for killers with no anti-loop ability. In a game with Anti-loop killers.
Note#2 SBMM sucks the fun out of the game. It encourages to play as sweaty as possible. Former ranking system encouraged players to actually go for many hooks and genpresure while on the other side, survivors had to be constructive within all categories.
Note#3 Anti-Loop is not enough. Killers like Knight, Dull Merchant or Artist are designed for not only anti loop but basically guaranteed hits over time. Sounds familiar? Original Legion.
Note#4 Loosing the tention between killer and survivor completly. Because of the design problems, we have the situation that its all about genspeed vs killspeed. This used to be somewhat always the case, but now we are at the absolut worst that has ever been.
Constructive feedback to help the devs fixing the issue is very welcome. I will later on when i find the time add my thoughts on that. The issue is, that this game is not fixable with the bandaids we get from update to update, but rather with some fundamental changes.
Kind regards
SBMM sucks the fun out of the game.
Wrong. SBMM prevents people like Choy, Hens or Otz from destroy new players with their high level gameplay, nothing more. This would be like a professional athlete complaining that they can not play an official game against an highschool team as playing with other teams of the league is "too sweaty". Also, no matter what system you would use to matchmaking, you won't stop people to play to win (or "sweaty" or "hardcore" or whatever buzzword you want to use) in a competitive PvP game.
Now, the way SBMM is implemented in DbD, that's a point worth discussing. In other games, with proper brackets, ranks and modes, it would be nearly impossible for a new player to face a max ranked player unless they played in a mode where there is no SBMM (usually called "casual match" or "player match"). That's not what happens in DbD, as basically every player above average is in the same bracket when they reach 1600 MMR, meaning you can basically face someone with 20K hours played and 2200 MMR when you have 200 and just have entered the bracket.
That's the problem with DbD's SBMM, not SBMM itself.
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@Toaster427 said:
Patch after patch, same old boring perk mechanics, or perks that literally nobody is gonna use.
This upcoming patch especially is just awful, it's like they spent a total of 5 min slapping ideas up on a whiteboard and then called it day.
Will survivors ever get anything exciting? It's a survivor only release DLC and the most exciting thing is the killer changes? What gives? The last exciting chapter for survivors was Mikaela...that's how long it's been..
Just really starting to wonder if BHVR is just completely focused on killers and nothing else in this game.
Like you all do know it takes 4 survivors to play a match right? Mayne toss the majority of your players a bone once in a while? Is that too much to ask?
Just really starting to wonder if BHVR is just completely focused on killers and nothing else in this game.
Saying that in the patch that will add the 4º base mechanic change that artificially hinders killers for the sake of survivors (Anti-Tunneling basekit BT, Removal of Unhooking grabs, Anti-Facecamping System and now Anti-3genning system) along nerfs to one of the perks that makes weaker killers viable is just hilarious.
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@Batraidyn said:
HA I DOOO have Steve WHOS LAUGHING NOW 😁😁😁
BHVR
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3625591#Comment_3625591
Majority of cheaters come from Epic game store due to TONS of free accounts. Once one gets banned, another is used. The loss of progress doesn't really matter.
According to a cheat developer
Hens? (really, I don't remember who made the video)Choy interviewed, there is an even more easy and currently accessible source of free accounts: The Xbox Game Pass.Apparently the cheat providers are so invested in their work that even give guides with the cheats on how to create free accounts so you don't get banned in your main.
EDIT - Found the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLjS4jpP020&ab_channel=Choy -
@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3626481#Comment_3626481
I may not work as developer for dbd, but I am a developer. My reason is simply I can relate...
Luckily I am not part of big corporate, but they are. Devs can't work on whatever they want.
Rewriting whole game would take a lot of time and that's not something corporate would like to see, because it doesn't generate money, at least not in short run.
If you are a developer, you would then know they don't need to rewrite the whole code to add basic features to the game than should have being already there, just to mention one example. Like I said, if they made the code, they can change it to fit whatever necessity there is. That, and they are using UE, so it's not like they don't have a pretty good base and workflow established to do whatever they want.
Also, even if I agree about the corporate part, like I also said, the thing here is that another company is basically adding to the same game (yeah yeah, two code bases, same game still) a lot of features and content that either was asked to be added to the main version long ago, or is simply much better thought and implemented that anything BHVR has come up with (fun fact: the visual terror radius as we know it was implemented first in the mobile version). To put it simply, NetEase Games is part of an even bigger corporate than BHVR, but that doesn't prevent them to improve non-stop their version of the game.
Now, if BHVR was a small indie company then ok, NetEase is a monster in the asian mobile gaming market that moves millions of dollars and users, so it's not feasible to ask for a small studio to have the same development and live service quality standards as them. But BHVR is not an small company. Again: Dozens of games under their sleeve...
Behaviour Interactive Inc. is a Canadian video game developer based in Montreal. The studio is best known for the mutliplayer horror game Dead by Daylight.... with their main license having 60 million players buying DLCs and microtransactions, a spin off game, all the revenue from the mobile version, another spin off being made and a movie coming. They are not your small indie studio that just started making games with the money they saved flipping burgers.
So, again, the question here is: How is NetEase able to look at the game and say "We should allow for survivors to see the builds of their teammates" and do it, while after 7 years BHVR is like "Well, we didn't have any plan to do something like that, and the interface that we ourselves did prohibits us from doing it, so maybe in the next years"? Again, just to mention one example of the many things that could go on this list.
That's the problem here. It doesn't even have anything to do with the NetEase version "being better" or not, but with BHVR developing and maintaining their game as they were 5 guys in a garage and not a full blown veteran studio with 1300 employees and money flowing.
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@TSQuint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3623983#Comment_3623983
Sure, but with actual consequences like losing points for every 1-5 seconds spent inside of it. Losing the regen of a special power, something, ANYTHING.
Granting a free hook escape don't seems much to you?
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@RpTheHotrod said:
It's just bait. Survivors are a powerhouse beyond mid tier MMR. If they are actually being serious, they are probably new.
I was going to, but you already said it. I can't believe for a moment that anyone that says "I mostly play killer" and "play killer is easy" in the same paragraph has passed the 1600 MMR mark.