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1ettuce
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3466795#Comment_3466795
If running made for this doesn't correlate to escaping more often in a statistically significant way, then why would they need to change it? The data shows it's not overpowered at that point.
exactly. The perk is just competing with other perks.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3466784#Comment_3466784
it is not really surpassing other perks though.
I don't understand what you mean by "it is not really surpassing other perks though." It's not exactly the least used perk in the game
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3466784#Comment_3466784
Don't put any stock into NightLights stats
They mean enough imo
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@Mandy said:
Made For This is something we are going to be monitoring, for right now we don't feel that it needs much change - it will continue to be monitored over the coming weeks.
I don't understand how you guys have reached this conclusion? Given that there's been valid complaints about the perk AND has gotten to #6 pick rate on nightlight (which means way more than it doesn't). What statistic is it now that makes MFT okay?
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@Marc_go_solo said:
I feel brown add-ons are at their best when looking at Trapper and Wraith. They offer small yet interesting ways to play the game. I also like the meme ones with the extra BP.
So little changes like Trapper being able to not get caught on a trap or Wraith revealing itself after breaking a pallet - those little changes really do suit the add-ons.
Agreed! I have a big appreciation for addons that aren't just number changes or status effects, I think they're really cool when they offer a real change
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@HugTheHag said:
Iris are either supposed to be very strong or to change the playstyle heavily. In that, Waterlogged Shoe has its place in iris, especially since in good iris you also have Mint Rag.
Brown addons should be addons that are either a small buff that's overshadowed by other addons (Rope Necklet vs Cypress Necklet) or something that makes playing the killer easier for beginners without changing the playstyle too much.
I think most brown addons are very much ok, and if a killer is bringing brown addons, then great ! They're not picking stronger stuff =)
Good point about changing play style and waterlogged shoe, but it'd be nice if said play style was like, at all better or at least good
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@HamsterEnjoyer said:
omg so u hate killers and want all their addons to be useless?
lol ok i chuckled
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@DavidHypnos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3466391#Comment_3466391
I can definitely understand that, but what I’ve seen others saying is that you can basically use it in a way you could use SB+BL before exhaustion was introduced. MFT will get you more value out of DH but once you obtain that value it becomes useless.
I might be misinterpreting? Because in a way yeah, you get the value and then it becomes useless, but before coming useless it's been very very useful, like yeah it becomes useless but only having given very good value
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@DavidHypnos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3464716#Comment_3464716
You can run it with DH but it won’t do you a lot of good once you’ve used it given it can’t be used while exhausted.
It's still veeery worth it, since even though you won't have the 3% haste after having used dh, at that point you already could've lasted for a long time, and then go on do get big value out of the extra health state dh gives you
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There is like only two significant things here. One is baseball glove being nerfed which makes sense because it was very good for a brown, and two is family photo being buffed when it was already one of his best addons, tho admittedly its bugged to be probably really terrible, but still
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To be fair, stealth killers don't exactly "usually" have a 24m TR, sadako is actually the only example and killers like wraith and ghostface have 32m TRs. But to answer your question, I believe it was said back in the day that she was given a 32m TR because she has a 4.6m/s movement speed, design philosophy or something weird like that. But now we have killers like sadako as you pointed out and wesker, who both move at 4.6 but have a 24m and 40m TR respectively, and deathslinger moves at 4.4 but has a 32m TR. So my guess is that it's just outdated design or.."design philosphy" at this point, I imagine they have something bigger planned for pig based on what they've said about other killers in a recent reddit AMA which could include a smaller TR, which could explain why the 32m TR has remained for no other clear reason
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3465784#Comment_3465784
That might work too.
Could be simply more fog (blurry) instead of full black Dredge style.
Something like that, anything works for me as long as it's not just a solo destroyer :)
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/380917/please-rework-blindness
Blindness is kinda useless status effect anyway, except soloQ.
Wouldn't really mind if it got reworked and renamed based on new effect.
Issue is there is kinda not much else how you can negatively affect survivors (passive)
We have slower healing, slower repairing, slower movement speed, can't hear TR, exhausted.
You can make an effect in doctor/freddy style basically getting false information instead of denying information. That would work against SWF too.
There is a suggestion for a rework in the post
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@tubalcane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3465774#Comment_3465774
I don't have 7 mins to watch some dopey survivor complain about how the 2 dozen pallets, 2 dozen windows, w-press easy mode, ability to body block, ability to do gens when someone is camping, can see over obstacles when the killer camp isn't enough of an advantage already. Please just summarize.
Ok, to summarize, please stop talking about completely unrelated things just because I suggested a survivor buff which is actually more of a survivor nerf in reality lol. "2 dozen pallets, 2 dozen windows, w-press easy mode, ability to body block, ability to do gens when someone is camping, can see over obstacles when the killer camp" literally has nothing to do with blindness, you're basically talking to yourself because it has nothing to do with the main point of the thread, go and make your own
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@tubalcane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3465770#Comment_3465770
Dead by Daylight should get a subname for how easycakes it is for survivors-
Dead by Daylight: Always a pallet when you need one
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@tubalcane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/380917/please-rework-blindness
So basically after the one million pallets, windows everywhere, endless maze loops, and huge w-key mashing headstarts you get, and soon to be nonsense anti-camping thing that will be exploited to all hell, you want the game to be even easier for survivors? Got it.
lol is it worth it to take this comment seriously? someone else let me know
ill at least drop this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqD4iTR1xdI
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@DredgeyEdgey said:
Title
- Regular hooks should be red and scourge hooks should be yellow, idk why it's not like this already considering scourge hooks in general are just white and regular hook auras are usually red
- Aura reveal range increased to 64 meters for no other reason than the number 56 being weird
- Perk doesnt go on cooldown unless you complete a sabotage because when you unhook someone and try to heal them and accidentally start saboing the hook and then the perk goes on cooldown its DUMB
- Maybe reveal the killer's aura while they're carrying but that's a bit over the top and not at all necessary
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/380917/please-rework-blindness
they would need to rework dredge's blindness add-on. i don't know. i think main purpose of blindness to to buff slugging so people cannot see people players on the floor but all that does is buff slugging against soloq. in off chance that you get ignored and bleed out on the floor. it is just weird design at the moment. it's just same old information gap-problems for soloq/swf.
I think blindness should not affect team related aura stuff and should only affect killer-aura reveal items such as Alert, Troubleshooter, Wiretap. In general, perks like empathy, bond, aftercare, kindred are not really healthy perks in the game because they just eat soloq perk slots with little relevancy for swf. so as pre one of your previous threads, it would be nice if they gave aura reading to survivor in general and turned all these perks into killer aura reading temporary killer aura reading perks. it would make blindness status effect pretty powerful as you could blind the survivor and prevent them from using wall-hack perks against you.
Fair point about dredge's blindness addon but imo they could remove the blindness part of it and make the mangled and hemo effect permanent and itd be fine
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@EmmaFrostyEyes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3465687#Comment_3465687
Yeah you can delay it but then you still get tunneled and downed anyway after. Plus it can be only used once. I think its a garbage perk but thats just my opinion and I respect yours
That's how all anti tunnel perks are, delaying is good enough to be impactful
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@EmmaFrostyEyes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3465669#Comment_3465669
Ds is garbage. Of the record was close but it basically gets countered by 1 hit. Still has good effects to help it out. A tier for me
Ds is garbage if you expect it to do something in a deadzone, but if you're near a loop, which you should be, it's incredibly strong. Delaying tunneling is absolutely priceless.
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DS and OTR are easy S tiers imo
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@Mr_Madness said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/7UFRS6AOYU5D/image.png
or
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/S0NNOSPCRT0N/image.png
I personally like the first since it keeps little of the color and is more of a redone version of the OG model while the second one is more of a redesign but lacks the color and looks more like it was white than yellow before decaying.
Nothing wrong with the OG Springtrap but I feel like the Art department can go wild with his design. Have a realistic skeleton in the suit, dried up blood, decomposing on the suit with wires popping out of the holes.
Also will like to hear the sounds of rusty metal scrapping bone and stretching decomposed flesh. Lastly for fun I would like to have a secret idle like Sadako but he does his hidden cutscenes in fnaf 3 while static plays.
#AddTopHatAristocratBlight
[Edit] Pls don''t start a Debate of being added or not and also unwanted topics, don't want this closed because of negativity.
simply, green
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@Saiph said:
Because the devs are severely out of touch with their game. I'm sorry to say it in such a crude way but there's no way the person who developed this feature has played DBD for more than 10 hours. It took years for it to be implemented, and yet still suffers from the exact problem as before, the worst part is that most DBD players were able to tell within MINUTES that the reworked BP spending was STILL too slow and lackluster...
The goal was to make the BP spending fast so why is there still so much idle time. Why still show the pointless level 5 / 10 /15 text and unskippable transitions between levels. What's so hard in making a button "Instantly prestige this character for 1.4M bloodpoints". I know the BP animations look cool and stuff but they really should be completely skippable after you've prestiged several times. All these features were requested for literal years and the fact it was still not implemented correctly is one of the many unexplainable things in this game like the obnoxious chat filter or the various game-breaking bugs we see release after release.
I guess I kinda new this was the answer already lol, shame
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@Chordyceps said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3465437#Comment_3465437
Things that instantly grant a health state, like Adrenaline or For The People.
Ahhh ok I see, good question got me thinking now lol
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@Chordyceps said:
Both of these things are things that can instantly change the tide of a match. Overall, which of these would you say is more impactful and why?
Wdym by insta-heals?
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Same problem here, thanks for adding onto the reports abt this cuz it's honestly pretty annoying and I'm hoping they follow through and sort it out
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@Vlarian said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3464948#Comment_3464948
compared to when BT wasn't basekit, and you had perks with essentially no counter, I'd say the game is in a pretty good state.
yeah...that's comparitively speaking
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@Vlarian said:
I've come back after a 10 month break, and here's what I've found:
Gen speeds are pretty darn fair.
The killer buffs (like 15% break speed I think?) have made holding W much less viable, so survivors have to think a bit more when moving to different loops
Solo Queue is very viable now! HUD changes are beautiful BHVR
The perk meta (from what I've come across) is also pretty darn fair! Sure there are still some stronger than others but perks are alot less game changing. Remember when you'd see 4 Dead Hards, 4 Decisive Strikes, 4 Borrowed Times? Now skill is much more valuable which is super healthy and a lovely change to this game.
Tunneling is alot harder! I'm glad BT isn't a must have every game now. Certain killers still feel a bit unfair with camping or other frowned upon strategies (slugging, 3 genning, etc) but BHVR are working on discouraging that too!
The accessability is much better than before, perk slots, practice bots, search bar, etc
THE GRIND!!!! SOOOOOOOO much better. I feel like I can genuinely get alot of things, and I know alot of my friends love the feeling of P3'ing a character and being able to have a single build on everyone,.
The survivors? Still equally as strong, even with all the nerfs, as a survivor main I can say I know most of my games are lost through skill rather than a perk or a tool.
And so.... I log back in the forums, and I STILL see people complaining about a certain side being OP, or a certain killer needing nerfs, or this, and that,
I am really perplexed.
The only major problem I can see in the game is certain maps being unbalanced, and a few killer powers encourage unfun playstyles, but overall I think this game is in it's best state yet.
What do you think?
Gen speeds are not fine, solo is not fine, tunneling is not fine, perk meta is not fine, accessibility could use some work. I don't know where this idea came from that things have been changed so now the game is perfect it's still FAR from it
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@Mandy said:
Wanted to kick off a discussion to find out what each of you finds fun in the role that you play - please feel free to speak about both Killer and Survivor Role if you play both (and if you don't play both, why not?!)
So for example "as a killer I find xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx fun" Please of course give more details!
And if you don't play for fun, what do you play for?
I'd be really interested in hearing people's opinions on this, so thank you in advance for all the replies - I will read them all.
As survivor, teamwork and getting chased
As killer, learning how to use my power and make good decisions
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real question is about hatch's remaining existence tbh tbh
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@Crowman said:
Because the killer's job is to remove survivors from the game which means fundamentally any survivor at any time has to be able to be killed. Not to mention there's 4 survivors on the team, so you have people who can take hits for you and try to block the killer at chokepoints.
A survivor has to be killable at all times? Surely you didn't mean this
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Same issue here
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3464745#Comment_3464745
Eruption got it basically as small compensation. It's not worth much, but better than nothing and definetly better (for survivors) than increasing regression.
Jolt, I like you get to see gen that was affected, but I couldn't care less if they removed screaming. You will find out anyway someone was there (gen is not regressing)
Yeah I understand, I would honestly prefer eruption got a bit more regression as opposed to the aura reading (I would be fine with 15%) just so it was more consistent, and jolt could just go back to the way it already was
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"Again" ? Hahaha...haha
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
It's not as easy to deny eruption / jolt, compare to pain res for example.
Call outs on down you often either do it too late, or too early. If it is early you just lost progress on gens.
That's a very fair point, but SWFs at least still have the option to make a callout like that, which can make it way easier to know when to get off the gen relative to how it'd be as a solo player. It's much easier to say and react to "I''m gonna go down" or something like that than it is to play a guessing game and lose out on much more gen progress on average as a solo. For example, if you're on death hook you might have no issue losing a few seconds of gen progress to avoid letting the killer know your location, especially with eruption's aura reading. But in solo, you either have to be fine with giving the killer your location, or risk getting off of the gen at completely random times that can easily massively backfire if the killer straight up drops chase. It's not exactly often you'd trade gen progress for info denial, but such situations definitely do exist
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@MrPenguin said:
Just trying to get a gauge on what people think.
I honestly thought that it wouldn't be a problem since I assumed SB would be stronger, but....after using it for a hot minute as surv I've changed my mind. This perk could not stack with dh and not have the endurance part and it would still absolutely rival SB imo, the lack of cooldown of any sort really just makes it so damn strong and constant. On top of that, you can run it with DH which is still VERY strong, and it has a side effect which would be very solid as it's own perk. Genuinely just crazy honestly
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3434413#Comment_3434413
Its not a free kill. They have to get the down first, and again you are looking at this like its not a 4v1. A single kill is still a loss. Stop with the whataboutism now because i won't engage with it at this point.
The response to a whataboutism is supposed to be "multiple things can be problematic at once" but you're saying one of the things is and the other isn't, there's nothing wrong with my whataboutism if you're quite literally proving my point with the hypocrisy. If 1 kill is still a loss then hissy fits shouldn't have been thrown over ds/otr in endgame since the match results in a loss for the killer either way
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@IWasLeft2Die said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3434460#Comment_3434460
Most of your discussion ends up being to others
1. "Your opinion is wrong or ignorant"
2. "I need answers for very specific circumstances that never happen (Like people not using helpful perks or items) otherwise points presented are irrelevant."
3. "Because survivors aren't guaranteed unlimited protection before, after and during an unhook the game is busted"
You are right bubba is OP. He's S tier. That's why he's always #1 in tier lists
- Sorry for calling ignorant people ignorant, I guess
- Using "helpful perks or items" literally is specific circumstances, I'm asking for the opposite
- I legit never said anything close to this, just a fact they aren't granted enough to make it even possibly, if you think the only options are having 0 protection and unlimited than good for you but I disagree, thanks for misconstruing my argument tho
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@Wewantjason said:
I main bubba and it happened today but only because the lag is so bad right now that I missed MANY hits with both the hammer and chainsaw. The hammer I kept rubber banding constantly. Chainsaw they were probably hacking cuz they got hit and it still didn't down them plus everyone not injured had a speed boost without hope. This was more of a complaint paragraph than helpful.
Generally, yes you can but it's hard. I recently was survivor on eerie and saw a bubba insidious camping basement. I ran down, juked him into a tantrum making him hit the basment hooks, then saved the person. We all got to the endgame but that girl sadly got downed with gates open. Nearly a four escape, and his camping didn't help him any.
A smart bubba should always get atleast one kill generally speaking but it comes down to the team. As long as the players can make him miss his saw its 100% possible. If he misses it and tantrums/goes on cool down he can't do anything to you.
It's DIFFICULT to 4 escape and camping Bubba. But not impossible by any stretch.
Without specific perks/items and assuming the bubba doesn't make a mistake (which isn't hard to do), it very much is impossible
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@nars said:
3 out is the max a good team could get.
Crazy fair considering it's a good team and a bad bubba lol
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@Krazzik said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3462469#Comment_3462469
And I agree it's unfair and should be dealt with, Bubba's kit is far too good at facecamping and denying survivors much counterplay to it, I'm just saying it isn't a widespread problem at the moment because even with this issue, Bubba isn't that widely played and facecamping-Bubba even less so. And yes Myers is another who can do it with perma t3 or simply 99ing t3 and facecamping, and Billy, while it's a bit more tricky to do.
I'd argue that tunnelling in general is something that, if you're not a strong looper, is uncounterable basekit as well. You need to bring Endurance perks, a Styptic medkit or something like DS to help deal with it, and even then you're only making it more annoying for the killer, not really stopping it.
Also slugging. If the killer just wants to slug all four survivors and you don't have particular perks like Unbreakable or Boon: Exponential, you're in for a harder time. There's definitely more your team can do about it but for solo queue especially it can be a lot harder.
Tunneling I agree with, slugging not really, at least not with more solo buffs that I'd also would agree with
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@ohheyitsbobcat said:
As for the original puzzle, in the icons folder there is another folder called Misc with a picture called Anniversary_Hidden. Nothing else that I can see.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/YOELYQAJJS3B/anniversary-hidden.png
I found that too, couldn't get any further lmao
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@SixShotOcelot said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3462469#Comment_3462469
This is quite the discussion.
Whataboutisms and comparisons seem rather misleading, especially the way you are trying to draw conclusions and compare.
First, let's discuss, the not-so-subtle Title Issue... that isn't exactly in the title. The fact that DS/OtR were nerfed to be disabled during end game. I was under the impression that around the same time BHVR/devs nerfed NoeD to also be significantly weaker in endgame. Thus, both killer AND survivor had perks that the COMMUNITY felt were overtuned in endgame nerfed. I will say I have no weight in whether DS/OtR should or should not be active during endgame. However, I do think this balance and comparison should be more compared to NoeD revealing itself in endgame opposed to your comparison with a face-camping bubba.
Second, WHY Bubba???? Literally, why is Bubba the only killer who is "guarenteed free 1K" as you say? I'd argue that MANY other killers can also guarantee 1k through face camping. I understand that his power allows easier immediate post-unhook downs. However, any other killers can also have easy post-unhook downs.
High Mobility S-tier killers? - Nurse? Blight? Spirit?
Killers that can "ignore" base-kit BT? - Pinhead (+addon)? Deathslinger?
Killers who can locked down a location? - Trapper? Hag? Twins (to some extent)?
Why is it all just Bubba hate? He is probably one of the most mid-tier killers.
Thanks for the interesting discussion!
1 I see no reason ds/otr should be compared to noed over bubba, imo they are pretty comparable to bubba with the complaints about free escapes
2 I don't claim bubba to be the only killer who can do that, sorry if you got that impression, I pretty much agree with the others you said completely. Bubba is just a very, very simple and easy to understand example, and imo it was just cleaner for me to ask for a video with bubba as opposed to "bubba, and nurse, and blahblahblah." Especially when I'm forced to explain how this stuff can be a free 1k, I can't bother going over every example lol
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@ohheyitsbobcat said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3462470#Comment_3462470
This one.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/LDNCPOMO9L64/eq2dqdwomm7b1.jpg
Thrawn also post another one above. I didn't know there was so many puzzles. I wonder if there was more then just those three?
Dang I don't know if I did something wrong with those characters, but says video isn't availible anymore, hopefully I just did it wrong cuz thatd be lame
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@ohheyitsbobcat said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3462470#Comment_3462470
This one.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/LDNCPOMO9L64/eq2dqdwomm7b1.jpg
Thrawn also post another one above. I didn't know there was so many puzzles. I wonder if there was more then just those three?
Cool stuff, thanks for sharing!
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@ohheyitsbobcat said:
No idea for that one. There was another puzzle that was solved that led to a youtube video.
That one had those numbers right?
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@Krazzik said:
There are definitely things I want changed about Bubba's power when near hooked survivors, I think most people can agree that there needs to be some changes to make him not so strong at facecamping.
However, the fact that Bubba can guarentee a kill so long as he doesn't mess up isn't a MASSIVE issue. Guarenteeing a 1k (or a 2k with noed) isn't the end of the world because a 1k is still a loss and a 2k only a draw. Yes it feels cheap and it's hard to get the save without some serious skills and certain items/perks, but you don't see facecamping Bubbas very often at all. I rarely see Bubbas in general and the few times I do they usually don't facecamp. This is because it's not a very fun playstyle for the killer either, and if the survivors just focus on gens he's gonna struggle to 'win'.
So yeah I do hope BHVR finally changes Bubba somehow so this isn't an issue, but it's still not that big of an issue anyway.
And if you're saying it's a problem just because there isn't a basekit way of dealing with it, well, there's a bunch of stuff killers can do that's impossible to deal with without certain perks or items.
I find it to be a significant issue particularly because of how ds/otr were disabled in endgame to prevent so called "free escapes," you may not have had an issue with those, but I can tell most people definitely have and bhvr did, and they should take same issue w free kills imo. The "free escapse" provided by ds/otr was only a difference of one escape/kill, in the same way free kills can be defended for only being a 1k, free escapes can be defended in only making a difference of a 1k, making a 3 out (killer loss) into a 4 out (still a killer loss). Also imo there is more than bubba who can do this, not a lot more, but billy can, trickster can, plague can, and some other killers with some vile addons. Just out of curiosity tho, what stuff that killers can do are you referring to exactly?
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@Annso_x said:
Went against two Bubbas today (in solo q), first game the Bubba was staying around the hook and trying to tunnel but wasn't facecamping facecamping, we got everyone out with 3 or 4 hooks I believe. Second game the Bubba was properly facecamping (insidious and everything), he got 6-7 hooks but we all got out thanks to the power of
friendshipbasic teamwork and hook trade. We also didn't have any unhook related perk or even kindred.Unless the Bubba is very determined they always make a mistake because standing so perfectly still and focused in front of a survivor is actually very boring and they're bound to get distracted at some point.
I see your point, but on the other hand, not making a mistake in that situation really isn't rocket science lol
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@H2H said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3462378#Comment_3462378
IMO DS (and OTR) shouldn't deactivate when all the gens are done.
Based. I genuinely believe the whole free escape thing in regards to ds and otr is a myth because you still need to coordinate a double save like you do now without it, and after that it only helps either in ways that could be replaced by other survs bodyblocking or in very niche ways that a 4 out would be impossible otherwise. What really makes a difference imo is something like the anti camp system, now that's something you can consider free (despite getting all the gens done not really being free, but whatever different story)
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@JustAnotherNewbie said:
Just give us a 5th perk slot that can be any aura reading perk, to account for the lack of communication. Then we could run 4 potentially useful perks and one for aura reading our teammates.
Honestly this is a neat idea. Very very odd, but interesting