Knock, knock
That's enough for me, have fun everybody!
That's enough for me, have fun everybody!
Read THIS post.
Tldr: This is an archived version of the DBD forum, it has all posts, comments and media. The archived data will be published at the end of October. This site is not in any way affiliated with or endorsed by Behaviour Interactive.
Comments
"If you can't escape tunneling its a skill issue"
Yeah or they're just gutting viable options to play against it one by one…
Eh, I don't think a perk should impact multiple killers' base power effect. Vigil was incredibly free and basically gave you a disgusting edge in the Trial against Clown and Freddy specifically.
That's fine. Enjoy your que times!
then why should multiple killers have powers that not only impact but totally remove survivor counterplay? The Plague from the outset thrashes every altruism build and provides a mechanic that BM's the survivor team as counterplay. but yeah man its a travesty when a survivor perk helps get over hindered a little quicker. one by one viable survivor builds to actually outlast the unbearably common killer meta of forcing a tunnel early so its a 3v1 so that its literally just the same few build options on people over and over again. if the justification for killer powers that cause unwanted effects to survivors is that "they are supposed to kill them" then its the same for survivors who are "supposed to survive". how is it a bad design to give survivors a tool to survive… I don't even use a flashlight but Survivors are given a total of Six Item options, half of which are horrible anyway, and Lightborn totally removes the functionality of one of those items? Double Standard. I dont even care that lightborn exists personally, but if we're removing mechanics because they negatively impact the other side then we better start removing them from killers too.
You’ve forgotten to mention:
- MFT
- Adrenaline
- Distortion
- Spine Chill
- DS
- Deliverance
- Hope
- Self-Care
The meme only has four doors bro… lol!
I get the comparison but when was the last time you saw a Plague? She's the 12th least picked Killer according to Night Light and aside from seeing her in the Banquet event to counter instaheals, she's by no means a popular pick. I get that running a full build and seeing her sucks, but so does running Lightborn against a team that last minute switches off of their Flashlights to Toolboxes. There's BS on both sides, without a shadow of a doubt, but I refuse to step down from the argument that Vigil was incredibly free and had so much fat on it for the sake of it.
Am I wrong to say that when you came across a Freddy or Clown or even a Nemesis/Unknown while running Vigil that you got excited because you knew that one perk effectively counters the entirety of their hindered?
good riddance finally a good nerf to those pre runners. I don't like perks becoming useless because survivor has too many but something had to give here.
then the Nemesis/Clown/Freddy can experience the same thing survivors experience on a regular basis in picking perks and having them become relatively useless. This game is impossible to balance, and so much so that when something gets nerfed, whether for killer or survivor, it just makes the game state worse for the affected party without getting better. DBD is not a MOBA and there's no reason stuff should be balanced to perfection. enforcing such a focus on these things are ruining the game state for everyone. how about put the effort into actually shaking the core gameplay up, its been stale for years… I don't want another survivor reskin or the next antiloop killer I want to see the game move closer towards the "Survive a slasher" setting that it takes place in. People had loads of fun with F13 and it wasn't balanced, people had loads of fun with TCM and Evil Dead too, they were confined in a way DBD isn't by professing a single genre. there is so much that they could do with DBD to vitalize the core idea rather than cause problems by altering perks that shouldn't be the central part of gameplay anyway. 2v8 is the most fun a lot of people have in DBD anymore and thats because the game is unserious again and not oppressively competitive for people who never asked for that.
Dead hard isn’t “gutted” or useless considering I see it in almost every lobby I have as killer. I quite like using the perk, and think it works well.
Vigil was one of the most unhealthy perks this game ever had - it made dozen of perks useless, turned exposed and exhaustion into meme effects and even affected some killer powers like a hard counter (Clown and Freddy). Maybe they should add the Blindness reduction to Vigil, since Blindness is the most anti-SoloQ effect in the game.
They should really work other perks and "distribute" the effects of Vigil to other non-meta perks to turn them into something more viable - for examples, Solidarity could reduce Mangle and Hemorrhage times by 40% for you and 16m nearby survivor aside from the original effect; Eyes of Belmont could reduce Oblivious; etc etc.
Lol, dude dead hard kinda sucks.
For TCM and Evil Dead, family/demon queues were instant and survivor queues got so long for TCM that it was almost impossible to play a match without waiting for almost 30min to complete a lobby. VHS had a worse issue with "survivor"/teen queues reaching a whole hour. If something these game teach is that leaving one side much stronger than other will just push players to the strongest side or even push them away from the game.
Balancing is a way to keep the meta fresh and the experience less repetitive. If changes weren't made, we would be still going against mother's Daughter Spirit every match, as it was in late 2020.
Yeah but it's not really casual friendly anymore is it, now it's just as strong but is latency dependant and it can only be used one way, boring
I prefer'd old Dead Hard any day over current. At least it was unique and had lots of ways to use it for skill expression/interaction.
Nerfing three mediocre killers isn't going to make the game better, my dude, Vigil does nothing against a good Nurse, Blight, Ghoul, Henry, etc etc etc, however the B and C tiers that it directly affects definitely needed the nerf, mhm /s
It's objectively worse than it originally was but it's a flat-out unabashed lie to say it "kinda sucks". It's a great exhaustion perk and easily in the Top Three, if not Top Two. It's a phenomomal exhaustion perk and if used well can extend chases for god knows how long. It also makes the EGC trivially easy if you can chain DH together with the basekit BT off hook.
Also the 5th most used Surv perk in the game according to NightLight btw.
That some are on this list is really laughable. E.g. Hope and Adrenaline, Perks which only activate in Endgame, which the Survivor might not even reach, should be strong. The partial revert of Adrenaline will not make the Perk more viable.
But for me, the biggest Joke here is Distortion. Because it was truely gutted and this mainly due to Killer complaints. First because suddenly Killers were worried about rat behavior (lol) and then because they claimed they could not find people due to Distortion. Rat behavior still exists and will always exist, all the Distortion nerf did was make those people even less efficient. And not being able to find Survivors… I am really wondering how Killers do it who dont even run Aura Read Perks.
Fast Track is missing on your list. Perk got gutted to the point that it is even worse than before it was buffed.
And then Killer players complain about Survivors running the same Perks all the time…
Funny how Vigil was such a problem yet we still have quad slowdowns and Thrill is only now getting a change.
BHVR continues to make it easy to not play or spend money on the game lol.
I disagree. I get a lot of value out of that perk.
I don’t miss old dead hard. Being used every time your exhaustion meter was cleared wasn’t healthy in my opinion.
When they changed dead hard to what it is today, I said this back then, it should be so you can start with it too. So 3 dead hards total, per survivor.
Yeah, always the same old story.
Every few months they wake up and decide which perk to whine about. They do it to the point of clogging up the entire communities, and BHVR has no choice but to give in to them—just like kids throwing a tantrum at the grocery store because their parents won't buy them a pack of candy; eventually, they get sick of it and just buy it to shut them up.
The Sprint Burst nerf is just the appetizer for what’s coming soon: all the other exhaustion perks are already on their radar, and before long, they’ll start crying to get those nuked too.
Word on the street is they’re even eyeing on Calm Spirit (ironic, but not far off).
a large part of this is limited IP though, as I mentioned these games were limited to one or a few killers whereas DBD has tons to choose from. and to be perfectly clear I am not trying to say Balance is irrelevant to a game at all I am just saying A lot of the conversation I see on here is people trying to perfectly balance a game which wasn't setup to be perfectly balanced. it just isn't possible. its insane to think you will get the game in a state where all killers have equal opportunity and chance, etc and even if it was possible it feels like nerfing a perk across the board is never a way to achieve this outcome. if a specific few killers are struggling with something then why not initiate a sort of balance directly relating to when that killer faces a perk rather than the perk as a whole. (the only negative I would see coming from this is that people might end up complaining that the game is too convoluted and its hard to remember exactly what does what but that is already a problem in this game and has been for some time.
I am just stating that I would imagine emphasizing an originality to each killer and survivor over repeatedly arguing over perk balance would serve the game better. I don't know how that sentiment isn't unanimous actually… A lot of the IPs in DBD are beloved characters from classic slashers and atp characters that are unlicensed have a solid following so why not make the game bend more rather than being so rigid?
You have to remember that survivors are literally just reskins and there's no advantage at all to playing one survivor over another besides cosmetically, so nerfing a rather mainstay perk is insanely impactful to them, way more impactful than changing a single killer perk, because killers also have uniqueness in the way of their powers and addons, survivors do not. there aren't A tier and F tier survivors unless you rank them by the perks that came to the game alongside them and so again, changes to the few high impact perks survivors do have as mainstays effects everyone in a larger way than changing a killer does.
Lastly, the Meta isn't fresh, its been the same for a long time, and its getting pushed to be even narrower with the gutting of perks that make other playstyles viable… its narrowing the meta instead of changing it, if they want to change it they would have to revamp quite a few perks that are niche at best and horrible at worst.
DBD is overall lacking a variety of perks for survivors that really have any punch towards a killer in the way of "Fighting Back" there's something to appreciate about a perk that grants a slight edge against slowing effects. it does influence some killers more than others obviously, that's just the nature of a game where you cannot make a build for what you'll face before you face it. you could bring a build entirely for healing and face a plague, or you could play hag with a hex build and someone has an anti totem build, that's just the RNG. "this thing is affecting me negatively" is what DBD is built on, getting stabbed with a knife affects survivors negatively, getting flashlight saved affects killers negatively, that's what perks are supposed to do, unfortunately there's an excess of perks for both killer and survivor that are not very good at doing that, that doesn't mean we remove the ones or gut the ones that do.
I'll say this for the second time on this thread but Survivors only have one avenue of gameplay change outside of perks and its six items, half of which don't have much value at all, one of which can be totally nullified by a single perk that's run quite often. and i'm not here to complain about lightborn, but its undeniably a double standard to give killers perks that shut off entire survivor builds from before the game even starts and then remove a perk that helps survivors recover from status effects a little bit faster. there are builds for certain killers that are so insanely tedious to face that its borderline a BM to even use them like Skillcheck Dr and Full Slowdown Legion. Pain Res is in play in like every other game but those aren't overtuned? again, double standard. its significantly more impactful to do an across the board nerf for survivor perks than it is for killer perks because survivors don't have the benefit of a power.
"Thrill is only getting changed now" when its had a nerf? Your acting like it was never nerfed before?
Circle of Healing and Dead Hard nerfs happened years ago 🤣
Damn… They really did gut Vigil then. I guess that'll be poor old Quentin joining Thalita in the no decent perks whatsoever tier.
Tough times to be a Survivor main.
I was trying to convey the idea that many good Survivor Perks have been nerfed going way back.
I know some Killer Perks have also suffered but seems like Survivor has been getting the brunt of it lately.
Not having much fun in the game lately. Time for a long break.
See you fellas on the flip side.
There's a difference between bringing perks vs the literal killer power. A perk should never totally counter a killer power, killer powers can counter perks though because you as a survivor still get to play the game.
Imagine for example there was a perk that just made you immune to chainsaws. That would be silly right? Because you would just dominate billy and leatherface with it, but it would be completely useless against every other killer.
Of course, any survivor would prefer OG DH, it was grossly overpowered. Like beyond busted. A joke of a perk.
The difference now is that it actually takes some skill/though to use it effectively. While it'll never be as powerful as it was, there is actually some element of surprise to it now, because not everyone and their cousin runs it anymore.
Honestly there have been so many other surv perks egregiously and unjustifiably nerfed in recent months/years that it just feels silly (and disingenuous to anyone with any objectivity) to include OG DH in these discussions.
What was done to OG DH was totally called for and at the time was long overdue.
Excluding the fact that it's also 100% ping reliant and you can still be exhausted on the ground. And that a lot of killers can just ignore it by hitting you off hook which is when you need an exhaustion perk the most, and that some killer powers also negate it.
CoH, Deserved, DH, Deserved, Sprint Burst, Slap on the wrist, Vigil, Deserved.
I just don't understand that kind of perk design, at that point just make it a non exhaustion, exhaustion is the limit? tune the exhaustion timer?
crazy especially with the vigil nerf.
that's not at all on the same scale as what Vigil does and you know that it isn't. People running Vigil still are effected by the clown, just a little less so, its not "infinite clown protection". same goes for freddy. there are TONS of killer perks that from the outset greatly inconvenience survivors, if we are removing vigil then lets start removing those ones too. Lightborn removes a valuable part of survivor gameplay, take it out. Corrupt Intervention Needlessly Stalls the beginning of the game, take it out. Thanataphobia is causing other players to be slower because of the mistakes of someone else who couldn't loop well enough, take it out.
I am not actually trying to say that these perks should be taken out of the game though, what I am doing is pointing out that if perks ARENT effecting the other team then why are we running them? you run corrupt and pain res because you WANT survivors gen progress to slow down, so survivors run Vigil because they WANT the killers debuffs to last for less time, that's how PvP scenarios are supposed to work. You can absolutely still play the game as any killer who has any power that causes any debuff, you can play it perfectly fine. you are still faster than survivors, you are still able to LEAVE CHASE and go chase someone without Vigil if you find yourself struggling with it. this is not a viable case to remove a perk with a unique functionality.
The hit negating effect is still powerful (much more so than the haste you get from SB/Lithe/BL), so it should be somewhat limited by exhaustion.
I think the only buff to DH I could get behind would be starting with it, so you get up to three uses.
The OG version where you could get essentially unlimited uses was just stupidly unhealthy.
I was trying to convey the idea that many good Survivor Perks have been nerfed going way back.Don't worry, I think the vast majority of us got that.
Best of luck in what game you take up next.
I am not actually trying to say that these perks should be taken out of the game though, what I am doing is pointing out that if perks ARENT effecting the other team then why are we running them?Best perk image?
Seriously though, its a good point. Perks are meant to have an effect and too frequently an 'an effect' is itself treated as broken.
These perks were not anti-tunneling measures. Most of them are stronger when you are not tunneled.
Hell, Dead Hard BECAME an anti-tunelling perk after it was nerfed, as it's just not usable in early game now.
Stop appealing to tunneling when talking about unrelated stuff.
Agree. But you’ll never convince the downvoters who don’t play killer and never have to deal with good survivors running these perks constantly match after match.
Circle Of Healing was completely busted and would still be a good pick if other healing perks weren't disgustingly strong right now.
Sprint Burst and Dead Hard are still two of the best perks in the game by any definition.
Vigil makes splaying M1 Killers insufferable and particularly hurts weaker Killers more than strong ones because of their reliance on additional effects like Exposed or Hindered.
You could also make this meme with DMS, Pain Res, Eruption, Grim Embrace, Thrill etc. (because those perks were unhealthy and are now less unhealthy because they were nerfed or reworked)
yeah so If you don't think that a perk made to decrease exhaustion time has any notable effect in surviving being tunneled that's kind of sad. I can't imagine how a perk to reduce the cooldowns of distance making perks as well as ease the effects of things like hindered might help someone out who is being tunneled. the point I made without voicing it verbatim is that there goes yet another alternative option to the same perks we already see over and over again.
"A Reduced Version of Sprint Burst and Dead Hard are still two of the best perks in the game" is not a good thing. If these notable perks that feel necessary to run in some form to survive are being nerfed and STILL are being used for lack of a better option the problem is with the vast amount of perks that don't see use here. Sprint Burst has significantly lost its value regardless purely because of the much higher chance of a high mobility killer, Dead hard is extremely easy to wait out once you know somebody has it, but even still these are being used because theres so many perks that do not provide nearly as much value. you could have a great totem build and face 5 killers in a row who don't have a single hex totem but Sprint Burst is relevant always, DH is relevant always. they are being used constantly because its guaranteed value over hoped value.
I would agree. It should’ve been based on tokens maybe. Here’s 3 dead hard tokens, use it when you want to. Instead of requiring to be hooked. (Just tossing ideas out.)
Let's look at old vigil for a second. 66% reduction in duration of a debuff right?
Freddy slow lasts normally 4.5 seconds and is a 12% hinder. That means for 4.5 seconds, the survivor is moving at 3.52 m/s. This means that landing your power as freddy gets you 2.16 meters of distance.
Now factor in vigil which reduces that down to 1.53 seconds. Now instead of gaining 2.16 meters of distance you gain 0.734 meters of distance.
That is a massive decrease in the effectiveness of the power for a single perk slot out of 16.
Okay, and this would be a problem if people were making builds with full knowledge of what they were facing but they aren't and they don't. Even in a SWF Scenario either all four people are using it or you are prioritizing the wrong person. at the end of the day the justification for gutting this perk has come down to "But what if theres a clown or freddy" what if there is? what if I run four healing perks into the Plague? then I went into a game perkless. what if I went into a game with a flashlight and the killer has lightborn or Two Can Play? What if I Drop a Pallet and spirit fury results im ny death? then oh well.
DBD has an anonymous lobby system, if anything it favors a killer more because they can see what items survivors are bringing, this means there are going to be cases of inopportune things. What if I am playing killer and I get a map that is stronger for survivor or Vice Versa? there are situations in this game that are set up for an automatic counter, Vigil is one of an insanely high amount of these things and its a slippery slope to start removing them because it is better against certain characters than others. the game is ultimately user influenced RNG, there is a heavy element of Luck of the Draw.
But that's the point, vigil in its current state protects you from almost every status effect so you'll almost always get value out of it. Its just especially bad against a handful of killers.
Okay but there are other things you could run if you want protection from other things too. Perks SHOULD have an impact on the game, that's a good thing. Exhaustion Perks also always give value, the baseline should be that every perk always provides value, not that there's a chance it provides value. what needs to happen is perks that do not always provide some level of value need to be reevaluated and if there's not enough reasonable function to distribute between the perks then its time to add to the core gameplay loop. and the Idea isn't just for survivors either, its also for killers, if I run a perk I want it to give value, not possibly give value. there will be more build variation when there is more viable perks to pick.
Um, survivor perks are not supposed to have impact on the game. Only killer perks. This is how BHVR and killer-only mains want it.
Obviously, perks should impact the game. But a single perk should not completely counter an entire killer, that is my point. Survivors have 16 perks to work with between them, and the killer only 4. By definition, the killer perks should be stronger.
Which perk does this, exactly?
If you're ACTUALLY being tunneled, you'll get one use of the exhaustion perk off the hook and nothing else, because the killer won't drop you and you will not recover from exhaustion EVEN if you have Vigil, so the perk will do NOTHING for you there. If the killer is NOT tunneling you, however, then you will recover from exhausted more often and get far more value from the perk. Plus, other status effects it acts against are mostly useful against people who are NOT being tunneled:
Exposed: tunneled people often don't get time to heal, and perks that inflict it are far mostly used against people who where not on the hook recently or are not being tunneled: Friends Til the End, Make Your Choice and Ravenous trigger the exposed affect either when someone is hooked and unhooked. Starstruck triggers when the killer is carrying another survivor, Dragon's Grip triggers on a survivor doing a gen. Haunted Grounds is a 1-time use and it would be a waste to use on a recently hooked person that is either still injured or could have DS.
Broken: Most of the stuff that inflict this trigger it uppon being injured in chase. It won't make a difference right off the hook, and if you heal of tha hook and THEN suffer broken, the killer will not drop you if the intention is tunneling you.
Hemorrage and Mangled: the only situation when they do something against a tunneled survivor is when they still have time to heal before the killer returns to the hook. Hard tunnelers won't let that happen anyway, and with how long mangled effects last, you'll still have it off the hook anyway, even with Vigil.
Oblivious: only useful when you don't expect the killer to be near you, so not when you're being tunneled.
Blindness: rarely does anything anyway, perks and add-ons that inflict it are very underused. If you're in chase, it's only useful against specific perks.
Hindered: the one you mentioned. Only 4 perks with a very low usage rate inflict it. Add-ons that do it have a small effect and are usually not that popular either. So it's only CONSISTENTLY useful against Clown and Freddy, and the pick rates of both together don't even reach 3%.
So no, Vigil was never a viable option against tunneling. It's extremely rare for it to do anything against it and is far stronger and more valuable when you are NOT being tunneled.
Calm spirit or Hardened for doctor, Iron will for spirit etc.