Please help list all the ways the new anti-camp system will be abused
To be clear it is not so much anti-camp as it is not being around the hook at all. The bar for the Survivor unhook only stops filling if the Killer is beyond 16 meters, with an increasing fill rate as the Killer gets closer. Other Survivors in the radius slow the bar if the Killer is in it but it does not stop.
I can totally see Survivors, especially coordinated ones, taking the chase to the hooked Survivor. The exact opposite of what you do now. The Survivor in chase can get the hooked Survivor off the hook by simply keeping the Killer around. This leaves 2 Survivors working on gens, prior to this, one would have to go for the unhook.
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If the range goes through floors like reassurance, then killers will get punished for existing. Also, 16m is is large enough that a survivor could lead you to the hook and loop a nearby pallet. You either give up chase or the survivor self unhooks. And if you give up chase, they are for sure getting that unhook. It removes a lot of the risk of being near a hook while chased as survivor, because it now rewards you for looping near them.
Theres a hook in RPD for example. Main hall, if your standing inside the main door then its on your left. The hook in there often spawns with a pallet next to it. Right now, looping it while a surv is hooked is a bad idea because the timer will tick down and someone has to trade while the killers near, or you leave and hope a teammate handles it. With this system, looping that pallet now guarantees an unhook. I am aware that the self unhook meter slows if a survivor is near. But I'd take a guess that the base amount would be ~15s and go up like 15 every survivor nearby. So loop for 30s and that survivor jumps off. Obviously this scenario could never happen depending on how the timer changes based on nearby survivors. But in my opinion, it should just not happen when survivors are near. With this system theres no reason to go for a facecamped hook outside of endgame when you could just do gens and wait for them to unhook themselves. Having it stopped completely would encourage more efficient gameplay, rather than prolonging an unhook. This suggestion would also keep the aforementioned risk of looping near a hook that gets removed with this change, because looping near the hook would remove the system entirely.
"To be clear it is not so much anti-camp as it is not being around the hook at all." So..anti-camp?
How can you even list anything when we know nothing about the system?
we can at least show what they shouldn't do so they don't do it. We know about the ranges distance, and that survivors nearby will slow the timer in some way. So we can make assumptions on the timer and show how those times would be bad so they can build off of it.
But that's presuming a lot about potential timers.
If the escape meter gain is minimal at the max distance, and the survivor slows it down further, it's not a viable strategy.
Even if it was viable, at a minimum it's very risky. The killer now knows exactly where the survivor is trying to loop and if the killer gets a down before the timer reaches, there's now two survivors hooked.
Not to mention if the survivors don't get the timings down right the hooked survivor could easily progress a hook stage before getting the escape, which is a trade off in favor of the killer.
And even if the survivor manages to get off the hook before the down, you're potentially just looking at a hook trade, which already exists in the game.
So for survivors to reliably employ this as a strategy they would need:
1: The killer to put the survivor on a hook that is easily loopable.
2: To not just win the loop chase, but do so while keeping the killer close to the hook.
3: For the other two survivors on gens to be so far away that taking the brief period of time to rescue their teammates while the killer is distracted is not the obvious play. If it takes 5 seconds to go and rescue the hooked survivor, and 5 seconds back to the gen, but it takes 30 seconds of looping to get the survivor to escape on the own, that's 30 seconds the hooked survivor couldn't do anything. The survivors could have had three people on gens while this master looper is plying his trade.
4: The killer to have engaged in this cat in mouse in the first place.
Could it be bad, especially on initial release? Sure, but that's just really a question of moderating how much the meter increases at various ranges.
I'm ready for these changes, alot of people are complaining about it but I'm looking forward to it because both roles have been in the most stale boring place the last year and neither role really feels challenging or rewarding anymore, killer isn't hard right now and survivor is only hard when you get dummies playing solo who can't read a hud and you get beat by your own team, I've honestly been burnt out as of recently though I've been here since day one and 12,000 hours later lol I've been on a break and this is what would make me actually wanna come back is the new chapter along with these changes that improve the other meaningful interactions in the game
Agreed. However, I do understand the nerves about it. I have said multiple times on here camping and tunneling need to go but I would be lying if I said I was not nervous about this. I am happy They are at least trying though.
And none of this information can be used to form a solid opinion without knowing all about the timer as well, which we do not.
This. We have no idea what min/max time it will take to fill the meter. The "fastest" could very well be 55 seconds, just barely enough time to avoid going into second state.
The devs have every plan to put it to a PTB, as said on the stream.
I described the system in the post, saying we know nothing is not accurate.
There can be gens being protected, other Survivors running around, pallets to break etc. Being by the hook does not necessarily mean you are camping.
It will have same issue as Boil Over, either too strong or useless. They aren’t going to bother if it is the latter.
Excellent points. I highly doubt BHVR has even considered these.
There are many more Survivor mains here than Killers. 2 reasons I suspect, have to be way more Survivors for the game to function and they can take casual breaks in game to post here.
Anything that may make the game worse for Killers is quickly dismissed. Survivors complained about the gen kick meta, that got changed in their favor (with no other gen control for Killers added), then they moved to camping and that is getting changed in their favor as well. They also got huge HUD buffs. Meanwhile, Killers cannot get an FoV slider.
You know, when I say I think anti camping measures are actively being targeted and protected by certain types of players so they're less effective and ultimately do nothing...
This is exactly what I mean. At least post with actual facts from the PTB instead of a pre emptive strike. I'm sure there will be plenty of time to have a biased opinion on Tuesday.
This is starting to feel like the same sort of panicking that happened around Fogwise and Blood Rush, both of which were unwarranted. There's no point in running the killer to the hook if they aren't camping. Especially considering killers are faster than survivors and running in a particular direction as opposed to taking advantage of nearby loops is likely to get you downed faster than if you just looped the killer and let a team mate get the unhook (and heal). Plus you're putting both yourself and the newly unhooked person at risk of both getting downed. It doesn't make sense. I can't see it.
I think most people play both roles. They may have a preference for one over the other, but they still play both.
And the perk overhaul of update 6.1 happened because of killer complaints about the survivor meta of UB, DS, DH, and IW. So no, killer complaints aren't dismissed. The gen kick meta got changed up, but BHVR said after 6.1 that meta shake ups will be a regular occurrence. And it is.
Chases typically go between tiles. Survivors have a lot of control over where the chase goes.
Fogwise and Bloodrush are not fundamental parts of every game.
I think most people heavily lean towards one role.
The gen kick perks were nerfed with no alternative for gen control given. No FoV slider. Etc.
Nah. Survivors will abuse it, Killers will point this out, and BHVR will shrug and push it through.
Then, after Survivors have enjoyed easy unhooks and 4-man SWF escapes are through the roof, and the game is hemorrhaging what few Killers remain; BHVR will adjust it to throw Killers a bone, and Survivors will scream that the game is Killer-sided, and Survivors always get nerfed, and Killers are catered too.
But if you're just near the hook for a second to break the pallet or a survivor is nearby it means much less or nothing?
My point regarding the perks is the panicking around them before we even saw them in action. And they ended up being nothing to the point where I haven't seen a single complaint about them once they went live.
Most survivor mains who have played this game long enough have a sense for what will or won't be an issue in their gameplay. Engaging a survivor in chase, they'll either be bad and you'll down them fast or they'll be good *because* they know how to work the tiles and buy their team time. It's not efficient to lead the killer to a hooked survivor. You risk both survivors going down. It's efficient to buy your team time to get the unhook and heal while the killer is distracted.
The more I think about this system, the more game I am to see it tested. Obviously a lot will depend on the numbers we don't know, and anything can change between PTB and Live if problems do arise, but they've given themselves a lot of leeway to let this system be impactful because the "fail state" for the killer isn't actually that bad if you aren't facecamping.
If you're trying to spread pressure and cycle through targets, you're going to expect that a survivor is unhooked anyway, pushing them from stage 1 to stage 2 or from stage 2 to dead doesn't really happen unless they've been left there for long enough that you only have to fend off survivors coming for the save for a few seconds. This is an area we don't know the effects of this system on, because we don't know the numbers; if it takes long enough to fill up that you have that spare ten to fifteen seconds, great, you can still punish mistakes just as well as live and nothing's changed. If not, that can be tweaked.
If a survivor tries running you near the hook, though, what's the worst case scenario? You occupy two survivors for however long it takes for that meter to fill up (meaning the generator efficiency with all survivors still alive is down a whopping 50%), and unless you get completely clowned on, you've got an injury + you're likely to have a down to replace the self-unhook with. That's a trade, those happen all the time in live and it's not actually a huge deal for you.
The better case scenario for survivors running you to the hook is that you down them before the meter fills all the way. That way it's definitely a trade at minimum and even has the potential to be two on the hook if you're on the ball; that makes running the killer to the hook a risk, not a guaranteed-value avenue for abuse like it would be if the system disabled powers or applied debuffs.
In short, I don't really see the value in trying to think of ways this system will be abused unless it's to make note of for testing later. We just don't know enough specifics and what we know sounds mostly fair. The only time this system ought to have a huge effect, on paper, is if you're putting all your eggs in one basket and don't have any hook states or pressure on the other survivors- in other words, if you're camping.
You are going to expect a Survivor to be unhooked by another Survivor, which takes that one off gens. It is absolutely a huge thing if a Survivor can unhook themselves.
But if you aren't camping and another survivor runs you to the hook, that survivor is taken off gens. Because you're chasing them.
We don't even have numbers on rates of how fast it fills at what distance with and without survivors present.
Calm down with the fearmongering. You can't claim survivors will be able to abuse a system you don't fully understand.
If numbers need changes based on the PTB, they'll change them.
Until then, please kindly take a deep breath. The sky isn't falling. Everything will be okay.
Why is the term "face camping" being used, if the system goes out 16 meters? How on earth is that face camping?
Isn’t that just from the basement hook to like the top of the stairs?
You were given an alternative. The self healing nerfs. More players, on average, playing injured means chases/downs are now quicker. But since you are upset about anti-camping measures I'm going to assume you don't engage in chase much which is why you don't see how the self healing nerfs were decent compensation.
Maybe it works like that with swfs, but more often than not there is one survivor going for unhook and if the killer is face-camping then it's generally a hook trade. The only time I see multiple survivors converging on a hook is during endgame, when this mechanic is disabled anyway.
If another survivor is taking chase around the hook, the meter slows down. We don't even know by how much yet. But it could be enough that by the time that survivor is downed, the meter isn't even full. So the killer has two on hook now. Now the 2 Survivors on gens will be pulled off - one to save the hooked survivor, and the other now engaged in chase with the killer. And the game can easily snowball in the killer's favour at that stage.
It's not efficient to purposely take chase around a hooked survivor. Keeping the killer distracted, while one person remains on gens and the other goes for a save and heal, is more efficient.
You mean "Far away enough, that you can't even see the survivor's face anymore"?
The system is good in theory but it could easily be the biggest nerf killers have ever received, if the numbers are wrong. I'll trust, that they know this and will closely monitor the PTB to not make that mistake.
i kinda agree with u on most of them points but number 3 nah. Why would the killer leave two hook survivors in close proximity. It just no point in looking for someone else seeing u got half of the team on hooks and the other half coming to get them. One survivor fair enough but two?? We just asking for the killer to be incompetent in that scenario.
How can someone be so bitter and so oblivious at the same time? The Killer-Bubble is really strange.
@Topic:
"The Survivor in chase can get the hooked Survivor off the hook by simply keeping the Killer around."
Yeah, OR a Survivor crouching next to the Hook because they think the Killer will suddenly stop camping will prolong the camping while keeping two Survivors away from Gens this way.
Say, for example, the timer increases at a rate of 10% a second within 5m (10 seconds to be able to escape) to the survivor and a rate of 2% a second within 5m and 10m (50 seconds to be able to escape), and within 10m and 16m at a rate of 1% a second (100 seconds to be able to escape). These values are decreased by 50% per survivor within a 16m radius. Suddenly, you could proxy camp without fear because you're guaranteeing second stage anyway, and you'd only have to step away from the 16m range for ~23 seconds and you've got a guaranteed kill (unless a survivor is nearby), however if you decide to. Facecamp or camp very close the survivor is able to escape within the hook state limits. You're not punished for going to a gen to kick it, because you have 10 seconds to get out of the 5m range, and ~13 to get out of the range entirely, unless other survivors are nearby.
However, if the values were 50% within 5m, 30% within 5-10m, and 25% within 10-16m, and de teased by 10% per nearby survivors, it would be very easily abused.
Do you see my point? You cannot conclude anything off of pure guesswork, you can only estimate what you think will happen based on previous experiences with these types of mechanics (that BHVR has been trying to get right since literally Year 2 when they first answered a question about an anti camp mechanic)
survivor is hooked on the 2nd floor of the garden
you just run from below and win
and do not forget that 16 meters on the gideon turns into 32
Don´t worry, i´m confident that survivors won´t abuse such a mechanic like they did in the past with Basekit BT.
It either builds so slowly it doesn’t matter and doesn’t prevent anything if someone wants to camp
Which is good and fine, because the devs specifically said that they don't have an issue with camping but with facecamping. It's a mechanic against facecamping and was always marketed as such (like it's literally called anti-faceamping, not anti-camping), because the devs realise that there's no way for them to realistically punish all forms of camping because often it can feel necessary. It's the stand in front of a survivor until they die, not moving at all type of gameplay that they want to penalise with this addition, not camping as a whole.
And if a Survivor is able to loop you within 5m of a hooked survivor, then there's something going terribly wrong there.
you are literally wrong, to save a survivor or make camping ineffective you need either 2 perks or 3 survivors who will simply rescue the survivor from the hook in a crowd
just use 2 perks, increasing the time on the hook by +60 seconds, then wait for 99% of stage 1, save the survivor, and even if you fall by the end of your stage, all the generators will be completed and your allies will just have to run, three surv bb killer and easily escape through the gate
Just as a thought experiment: Consider the situation you are painting up with the two survivors on opposite sides of the hook, and compare it to the situation as it is at the moment. What are survivors going to do under the current system, and how does that compare to the 'abuse' situation? Because from what I'm seeing, that 'abuse' situation is literally flat-out better for the killer than the more likely situations that occur under the current system.
'Just clog your build with perks that only work for camping and then execute a perfect strategy in perfect coordination with total strangers and no communication to counteract the killer putting in effectively no effort whatsoever.'
Okay.
because this nerf affects everyone, even non-campers
these 16 meters = 32 on the gideon
The survivors will exploit it
all you want is constant free escapes, but please think for at least 1 second and understand that it is wrong to punish all the killers
This says nothing
What if a survivor being near means the bar fills so slowly the survivor on hook dies before it gets filled?
No point in discussing something we don't know the details about yet
How about you address the actual scenario?
History shows this not to be the case.
The point would be that if a killer is facecamping and a survivor enters the radius when the meter is 99 it shouldn't stop filling.
Also i disagree. Nobody likes facecamping. Even facecampers would rather be able to win in a normal way. But adjustments to make that happen can't be done untill it's gone
You cannot be chasing someone properly when your camping. Your either chasing or camping. This changes punishes facecamping.
If your getting interupted from performing the unhook action, you are facecamping. Hook trading is face camping. a big reason why they are choosing 16 meter is ranged killers and while you can still be interrupted, you should be able to side-step projectile from that distance.
you are correct they are not targeting proxy camping. you can still stand 32 meters away with make your choice and directly return the hook after the unhook has been performed. they are punishing stand-still at the hook and hook-grabbing gameplay.
according to how BVHR described the system, they stated that if a survivor is near a hooked survivor the system pauses. Your not getting punished for a survivor being nearby. your getting punished for hooking a survivor and standing still directly near the hook from very first second in attempts to force second hook states and third hook states. The whole concept of losing hook-states over-time is suppose to happen organically by the survivor misplaying by being late to get the unhook but camping has evolved to an entire strategy for killer to exploit and force skip hook-states/force kills. Their balance towards camping is following their scourage hook: monstrous shrine perk where the perk speeds up hook regression when your far away but does not activate when the killer is nearby.