"Hook someone else to deactivate DS" - I don't think this is a good idea. Here is why.
There's one thing about DS that I've read a few times now. DS should not work when the killer hooks another survivor. But why? Personally I think DS is a very powerful perk but not OP or something. Imo it is in a good spot. The problem I see with the "hook another survivor to deactive DS" is:
A killer could basically (semi-)camp a survivor. If another survivor tries to help and unhooks him the killer might be able to bring them both down. Hook the fresh survivor to get rid of the DS, then smack the poor first guy back on the hook. Even if BT is involved the unhook would not be always "safe". Even useless against Freddy for example.
Another example: Let's say you put someone on the hook and see a survivor in the distance (thanks to BBQ or another perk). You down the other survivor while the first survivor gets unhooked. Now you hook the sec survivor and see the first guy again. You could even be really dirty and intentionally wait for someone to unhook the first guy so you can hook the second guy and go right back to the first one. You could basically just walk up to him and hook him again. He wouldn't be able to do #########.
I also don't remember the Devs saying that DS is anti-tunnel ONLY. I love this perk. No... not because I'm a bad killer or an entitled survivor main. I love it because it has an amazing effect on the game (at least imo). I could explain why I like this perk but this thread is already long enough lol.
I am playing both sides equally (more or less) on high ranks btw.
Comments
I didn't say they completed THEIR OBJECTIVE, read again pls I said they did 1/2 and they're getting rewarded for it.
I mean, that means they have not completed their objective yet, no?
No they didn't but they are being rewarded for doing 5 generators.
Props for entertaining the goalpost shifting in a civil manner.
Sure, and we gotta make sure that things are fair and balanced for both sides at all points in the game, including once all the generators are finished (especially since the dynamic of the game does change once all the gens are finished).
To change DS further you would have to make tunneling bannable offense. Thats what i think...
How do you make tunneling a bannable offense when people can't even agree on what tunneling is?
Why should you get rewarded when the game isn't over also that's what adrenaline is for if you want a reward for only doing 50% of your objective
You dont always have that luxury...its a lose lose scenario
Err how's that work out if the killer immediately goes for you and downs you, then goes after someone else? You were still tunnelled and are unable to play the game until someone comes and heals you (barring running No Mither or Unbreakable) which isn't too different from being unable to play the game due to being hooked.
I think that, if we're going to add conditional deactivations, then healed to healthy and/or if someone else is hooked while you're not in a dying state avoids the problem I described above.
I am not saying that I know it. I am saying that what i said has to happen before you can change DS.
I agree that DS shouldn't really be changed, but I do think it should be active twice. I hate when killer tunnels me down because they know I don't have it anymore.
I see an issue here...
Hooks person with D.S. person with D.S. gets unhooked. D.S. is enabled.
Now you need to hook another survivor for it to disable right? Well... that's the issue. If they are all being stealthy except that one person with D.S. guess who I'm going to try and hook next? The person with infinite D.S.
And then I get struck with D.S. wondering why the hell it didn't disable after a minute of not finding litterally anyone but you.
You can always tunnel a person off her hook, which is why ds became popular in the first place
Yet thsts not exactly what I'm referring to..mid game the perk does what it should..its end game that bothers me
Because a good group of swf survivors can abuse it even if they arent being tunneled. They will use it to have immunity from the killer for 60 sec or the killer eats it and has to do another chase while everyone else does objectives.
I don't really agree with that. Especially not if it's not something that can be agreed upon, or if it's something that can arguably be justified in cases. I think DS can be tweaked a little without causing too much of a rippling effect.
You're looking at it from worst case scenario from a survivor perspective. But the worse case scenario from a killer perspective shows how it is abused with borrowed time and sometimes unbreakable to allow so many second chances. Allowing them to ######### up and still get away. As the killer you screw up once and it can cost the whole game. Let alone when 4 survivors all have 3 second chance perks. This is why it needs looked into because survivors can completely flip a game because they stack all of the perks and do stupid things with no punishment.
If someone heals you in that time, then you got to avoid being hooked and you got to keep your DS for a potential future use, so it still works out for you overall.
NOED isn't a crutch. Survivors can completely negate NOED, plus, they get points for doing so. You'll notice very few top rank Killers use it, since it is a bad perk and good Survivors easily get around it.
Am I upset when I get hit by NOED? Yes, very. Am I upset at the Killer or the game? No, I am upset at myself and my teammates.
That's true. Sometimes you just farmed, that also isn't the Killer's fault. That could be solved by letting the Survivor on-hook deny a hook save if the Killer is near. I see this getting abused though.
Slugging does not equal hooking. I get no points for slugging and hardly any pressure. Unbreakable is fairly common these days, and, I get maybe 25 seconds with that person on the ground.
You are very biased towards the Survivor side. I would absolutely be willing to make the DS timer indefinite, during the regular game (not EGC), with the trade off I proposed above.
It punishes people who hard tunnel, but it cannot be abused by Survivors looking for their 60 seconds of immunity.
I still don't understand why people think the locker DS tech is OK. Just let me have that gone because that is complete BS. Heck if you're interacting with something like a gen you should forfeit DS.
The perk puts the Killer into a lose-lose. If he leaves them, he has to go find someone else, while that person gets to work on gens for free for 60 seconds.
If he picks them up, he has to commit to a chase where the Survivor has a 5 second head start.
That is not being tunneled. What you described 99% of the time, only happens if a survivor gets unhooked right in front of the killer. They go for you and slug you ASAP. It's not tunneling so much as cucking the benevolence points of the nerd who got cocky and unhooked you in the killers face. The only one at fault for that is your jackwagon of a teammate. If you're going to sit there and say "I got unhooked in the killers face, but it's not fair that I got downed", then you have some serious entitlement issues.
How does he know where you are if he just hooked someone else? BBQ (and other aura reading perks) don't give you accurate information of who is where. They just know "there's people over here", but not who.
Either you were being foolish trying to go for a body block/flashlight save and the killer saw you, or you were working on a gen nearby and the killer found you near it. Neither of those are "tunneling". The killer chased and hooked someone else already. You hanging out near them is your own fault. You knew the risks of doing it, and you shouldn't feel safe doing it just because you have "60 seconds of invincibility".
It's just survivors using their perks, killers abuse their perks all the time.
I love how DS is anti tunnel yet I tunnel anyone who has it early on so I don't get hit in the EGC.
So killers should always get punished no matter what but survivors should always get rewarded with free escapes because reasons? OK.
I mean, if you don't pick them up you don't get hit with ds. There you go.
True, a surivior can do that but it isn't really a lose-lose situation to the killer because if the killer is able to find a new surivior. It would make up for the surivior they couldn't put on the hook due to ds.
The surivior with ds would also be wasting time healing because if he doesn't the killer can easily put him/she into dying state.
DS is similar to Ruin because not always do both of this perks always come into action when you need them. A surivior can also argue ruin is a lose-lose situation because they will have to look for the totem then cleanse it, which would waste time for them which could have been spent on gens.
Sure ruin can be done as soon as the game starts (not fair but oh well) , but you can slug the surivior preventing them from doing anything (Which is also not fair). On addition to that if you use slow down perks such as sloppy butcher there is a good chance that by the time the surivior gets back up he would have 20 seconds or less of ds. As you know sloppy butcher takes a surivior 40 seconds or more for them to heal.
First off, you've got to play the entire match, you haven't failed at anything until they've escaped. Second off, the biggest complaint about tunneling is that it gives you no chance to do anything else, so no PIP, no bloodpoints, but by the time the EGC comes around, that's over. There are no gens or doors to patrol, the only thing you have left is tunneling.
You down someone near the door at the EGC and hook him, he's on second hook now. His buddy rushes the hook and unhooks him. The one that just unhooked leaves the match, now the one lying on the ground has DS, so you can't pick him up, but he's close enough to the open door to crawl away. There is no counter play at that point. So either DS needs to be deactivated at that point, or the exit needs a mini bloodwarden where a survivor can't crawl to safety with the killer standing directly on the exit.
you over complicated it greatly.
DS is fine, when it's an actual full on tunnel situation.
The problem, is that survivor's change the meta to make it an offensive perk by becoming aggressive.
Noone on BHVR's testing team is toxic though and they don't play public matches - how would they have every imagined it might be used in that way. cmon, cut em some slack guys. They are new here.
A Killer has to spend time finding a new Survivor. It will take them at least 45 seconds to find and down one, likely a lot more.
Good Survivors don't heal, they do gens. Plus, they will likely find the two Survivors you aren't chasing and heal extremely fast.
DS always comes into play. If the Killer leaves you on the ground, that's DS doing its job. It is coming into play. Ruin can be cleansed immediately, plus, good Survivors can hit the skillchecks, making its slowdown negligible.
Sloppy makes Self-Care take 40 or more seconds. Nobody uses Self-Care because it is a bad perk, exactly for that reason. Sloppy actually adds 4 seconds to the regular healing time.
If a survivor hops into a locker now you have to wait for it to end and not hope they have Head On
Right, which is why I think that 'if you are healed to the healthy state, DS deactivates' is totally fine.
That's a whole lot of words to justify tunneling, and the end result is the same: you're on the ground unable to play the game until someone comes and gets you.
And, yeah, it's not fun/fair that I get punished when my teammates make poor plays like unhooking me in front of the killer without BT. I can literally do nothing about it, aside from not getting caught in the first place (which is tantamount to just not playing the game, since no matter how good you are at some point you are going to get caught).
I don't run DS, so the rest of your rant has very little to do with me. I've already said that I think that 'if someone else is hooked and you are not in the dying state, DS deactivates' is also a fine condition.
The only time DS is too over powered is when the survivor is at the exit gate and no matter what you do they escape.
I would simply shorten the timer. 60s is too long imo. As a killer main I can hook 2 other survivors in less than 60s stumble upon the survivor that has a active DS and force a interruption action or jump in a locker to force DS and get punished for doing what I'm suppose to do
DS should not be able to activate after 5th gen is repaired. If you live long enough, then that means killer never wanted to tunnel you. Also with gates open there is no counterplay around DS unless downed survivor is very far away from opened gate.
I don't think "rant" means what you think it means. I named specific scenarios. Hardly a rant. What you're doing is ranting.
I did not justify tunneling. Even if slugged, you were not tunneled. To tunnel means chase you until you're dead. Killer slugged you. Did not pick you up, they chased someone completely different. The only reason you were put down is to punish the unhooker, not you. Another team mate is free to revive you at that point.
If you don't know what tunneling is, best not try to debate about it, chief.
You have to agree upon something regardless... Whether its punishment for tunneling or changes to DS.
"How do you counter DS?"
Slug them. Easy.
I really don't see why this is such a hard thing to do. It's 60 seconds. Slugging creates as much pressure as a hook, possibly more since it takes longer to heal a slug than rescue off the hook.
Alternatively you can just eat the DS if it is early enough. I really don't get this irrational fear of DS most killers have. If there are 4 gens left just eat the DS. Now you don't even need to worry about it later. If you play Nurse or Spirit you can catch the person again in like 10 seconds if you are good.
Yes. The Steve did that knowing you would grab them like a bot. You should have just smacked him twice, left him slugged, then chased down the guy he saved and slugged them. By the time you do that and get back to Steve his DS would be gone. Easy kills.
Like this is such obvious DS bait it is 100% you fault for falling for it. Survivors don't do this kind of stuff unless they have DS, or are just a fool. If you are betting on them being a fool then you are actually the fool.
I support the OP. He makes valid points about why it's dumb to limit DS like that. DS is not that hard to play around. JUST SLUG THEM. It's not rocket science. Eat the DS if it's early enough to waste it even.
Slugging actually does create a lot of pressure. If they do not have Unbreakable then someone needs to come heal them. That's equal to someone coming to save off the hook, except that it takes longer to heal someone off the ground than it does to pull them off the hook, especially if you have heal debuffs in effect.
I slug like crazy at rank 1 and have no issues creating pressure with it. No to mention that you save time not carrying the guy to a hook. In fact slugging is probably the MOST effective way to get a 4k. If you have a one shot like Billy, and a good tracking perk like Infectious, just go around and slug everyone. Chances are you will get the 4k super fast. That's how Zubat and Scott win a lot of their games that would have been a loss otherwise, they just slug everyone. Watch Scott's Bubba speed limiter 4k spree. He slugs like CRAZY. Pretty much every game was won by slugging at least 2 survivors at once.
And yes, there are exceptions where slugging might not be the best option, but more often it is.
That is literally abusing DS
OR, DS should not proc if you throw yourself at the killer like that Steve did. If it's anti-tunnel, it should only proc when the killer is tunneling you - which is a pretty black and white, cut and dry condition. You have no idea what balance is.
Dude, the community can't even agree what tunneling actually is. Therefore it would be impossible to even program such a thing. No to mention the fact that whatever formula you come up with will likely be abused heavily by one side. See Deep Wounds.
The Steve did that knowing he couldn't be stopped. It was a smart play on his part because he was taking full advantage of his perk. Spirit grabbed him like a bot. She fell for the bait. Had she just hit him twice she would have avoided that entirely. Now instead of 2 injured survivors running around, she has 1 slugged and is in a chase with another which she should be able to win easily in 10 seconds as Spirit, 15 if she were smart to wait out BT.
Stop defending killers making dumb decisions. Survivors make ballsy plays like this expecting the killers to take the bait. If you don't take the bait you just counter played them.
It doesn't matter what the community believes it is. Tunneling has a definition.
Tunneling - when the killer ignores everyone else to go after one person, and only that one person, until they are dead.
That is tunneling. Any other BS manufactured definition is incorrect. It was NOT a smart play on his part. That shouldn't even BE a play if DS is an *anti tunnel* perk. The second he tried to hook tech and then tried to unhook someone in the killers face, DS shouldn't have activated. If DS is meant as anti tunnel, he should need to get the hell out of dodge. It was a cocky play, and abuse of the perk. He knew he was invulnerable. He didn't outplay anyone. He hit a damn skillcheck, that's all he did. It should NOT work if you throw yourself at the killer. That's not what "anti tunnel" perks are for.
Stop trying to defend it. It makes you look continuously worse. You don't have a valid opinion until you play killer for a while and realize that DS isn't used as anti tunnel. It's used as a superman perk, and that's all it's used for. So get back to me when you play killer at red ranks for a few weeks. Then I'll acknowledge your opinion; and actually do it. Don't just say "Well I play both sides". Nobody who truly plays both sides thinks like you do. Period. Your logic is completely one-sided and flawed.
That's your definition. If we poll the community there would be a lot of definitions. Regardless, how do you even program the game to recognize your definition in the first place? What if they don't hit another survivor it's counts? Okay then I just smack someone else. They don't chase someone else? Okay I just look at another survivor, they run, start chase, I continue to tunnel, that chase ends, now I'm not tunneling.
Like really whatever you come up with as a measure of tunneling in the game's terms I could easily find a work around. I guarantee it.
And yes it was a smart play. He did that to bait the killer to grab. She took the bait. His plan worked. Had she just hit him twice it wouldn't have worked. He would be slugged, she would run off and get downed in 16 seconds. Killer comes back and picks him up now that his DS is gone. Waits for Nea's DS to go. Just got 2 kills easy. But no he grabbed and got DS'd. There was no abuse of the perk at all when she could have played around it by just putting some thought into the situation.
BTW I play several killers at rank 1 for over a year now. Some examples...
PS Legion is not really that weak
PS. Was only using NOED as an experiment. Normally I run Ruin on Trapper.
PS. Not rank 1 yet, but this was maybe a week after a reset.
If you want you can watch more here https://xboxclips.com/thesuicidefox/
No, that is THE definition. The only correct one. If you or anyone else believes otherwise, you are wrong. Period.
That's the thing with you guys. You manipulate and manufacturer your own definitions for things to serve you; and you go out of your way to defend scummy plays at any cost.
I'm sorry that you're wrong. I really am. Please, go play more killer, than I'll continue to acknowledge you. There's no sense debating with someone with a one-sided mindset who doesn't know what tunneling, or balance is 🖐️
Agree 100% OP. DS is in a perfect spot right now. I play killer and survivor 50/50 both at rank 1 and I do not have issues with DS. It has plenty of counters as is and it would become literal trash tier if they made it deactivate immediately.
Also you’re right when you say that the devs didn’t explicitly say it’s an anti tunnel perk, it just supposed to make it so you can’t get immediately hooked again after being unhooked.