woundcowboy
woundcowboy
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@InnCognito said:
Respectfully,
I could revise my statements a million times. But IMO I would start asking people why they rage quit and take it as feedback to the future of a game community. Overwatch just did their whole deal with Role Que and I can certainly say that I highly doubt they have 35 million players anymore.
I don't sit in the hot-seat and I am only a customer.
Since the topic of DC punishments and time-outs is posted. I am going to say that it is clear, and evident. Within the reason beyond a doubt. That this game has a DC epidemic. To me, that is the stars aligning, for what storm is to come. And, I would look at WHY people are leaving. at those key points in times. Just like we would look at "Ground zero". If I was to put my betting-chips on the "gambling table". I would say it is these reasons to the increase on rage-quits:
1 ) Killers being spawned on top of survivors.
2 ) Bad Aura-perk counterplay
3) End Game Collapse
4 ) "Safety nets" for survivors. (pallets, hatches, loops, window mechanics, Exhaustion perks).
5 ) The rank-gap reasons of why players left that match and bailed.
Im not here to troll or start an argument. But I would REALLY consider researching with player feedback. Just put a survey out and ask these questions. See where the day takes you. :-)
I literally cannot believe people are defending DCs. The game is the game. If you can’t be bothered to learn how to play and counter aura reading, camping or whatever else, then you should uninstall and save everyone the trouble. There is no good excuse for DCing.
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@Peanits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/835244#Comment_835244
A mindgame is something you do to outsmart someone, it's not running in a straight line after someone and leaving them with no way to tell what you're doing. You can't really expect the survivor to not be close to the killer unless you give them a way to always maintain distance from the killer, which is tricky when the killer can turn invisible and catch back up at 7.2m/s.
Why can survivors run in a straight line against Nurse and make it impossible for her to catch up to them? There’s no mindgame there.
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@Omans said:
The funny thing about this situation is all the people complaining in this thread would be SO happy if the current iteration of nurse was the next killer released.
Imagine we never had a nurse killer, and then suddenly this nurse was released. Still goes toe to toe with spirit as best killer in the game, can blink through walls, still has good map presence (don't even mention Haddonfield and big maps like that - I'm a huntress player. I know.), can down survivors really fast, etc. Like, it's obvious that they aren't looking at what she currently is, but comparing her to her previously broken state.
Oh, and isn't the person who made that video showing the nurse being slower than billy running, even though the nurse started WAY behind, and was only using one blink here in this thread, claiming that simply running straight is a counter to nurse now? Or was that a different diehard nurse player? Let me guess, still only charging one blink? I would love to see this new 'running in a straight line' counter.
“Going through walls” is the laziest, most generic argument that people make. Like yea, huntress “can hit you across the map” but there is far more nuance and situational stuff that determine how good she is (I think she’s just okay). Her map control is absolutely terrible now: base blink doesn’t have enough range to control gens. She now has to play a very lame, camping/slugging style that isn’t fun for either side.
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@CotJocky said:
The same reason you got a hospital gown Myers and not a shirtless Myers is the same reason you won't see a "drag" Leatherface. The IP owners's will never allow it. It cheapens their IP. They are for making money, but not by detracting from what is supposed to be a "horror" figure. They want to promote their IP, not make it a laughingstock.
Bill would require a agreement with Valve. It took 2 years to get him on console. I can't imagine how long it will take to strike a cosmetic deal and how underwhelming the end result will be. Were the Myers/Laurie cosmetics really worth the wait or money? Don't expect anything that will "wow" you IF Bill ever gets one.
Behaviour can do whatever the hell they want with their IP. If they want to put the Clown in a elephant suit, they can do it! I can't wait for that one! :-)
I don’t see how that would cheapen the IP. Leatherface has worn makeup and dressed as a woman in multiple films.
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Yea huge maps aren’t fun. Unfortunately, it seems like asymmetrical devs are always trying to make bigger maps (F13 newer maps are huge).
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@NMCKE said:
Prologue: Nurse, is she actually weak?
Okay, there's a lot of rumours going around that Nurse is mid-tier at most and she's not viable at all. However, that's far from the truth, and here's why:
- Nurse can avoid the survivors' defenses and traverse around the map with ease, albeit slower than normal. The base cool-down adds 2-5 seconds to an already fast chase time Nurse has.
- Add-ons are pretty useful besides a few that I will mention later.
Any ability that saves you the trouble of running tiles is automatically a top tier power, there's no debate here because Nurse is the only killer who got straight nerfs to counteract her strong ability. If her power wasn't strong to begin with, she wouldn't be receiving the nerfs that she's been getting recently. ?
Add-ons: Are they actually terrible?
Short Answer: No, there are pretty good.
Long Answer: For the most part — No because 75% of all Nurse's add-ons are pretty good.
Omega-Blink
Yes, the rework didn't remove it — the only thing that changed with this combo was increased charge time, that's it. If you're a great Nurse, you can adapt to the increased charge time and you're back to how old Nurse was.
3-Blink Nurse
Through you can't blink through anything that blocks your line of sight, there's something that comes with getting 3 blinks: You also see a blink indicator. Therefore, you don't have to guess if your blink will work in a congested situation and can make more accurate reads.
Keep in mind, pallets and windows don't block line of sight either. So, Nurse can still avoid survivors' defenses with ease.
Charge Reduction
Miss pre-rework Nurse? Use the charge reduction combo to undo what the developers done to Nurse, and cut chases down by 2-5 seconds (this also gives you faster mobility too). I find these add-ons great for snowballing hooks, especially basement hooks.
Now, there are some add-ons that are just terrible to use: I'll name a few.
- Bad Man's Last Breath: Remove the cool-down and increase undetectable duration from 16 seconds > 30 seconds.
- Jenner's Last Breath: Remove the needing a blink requirement.
- Anxious Gasp: Increase Bloodpoints from 200 > 500 and increase the area of effect for survivors to scream.
- Spasmodic Breath: Increase movement speed to 4.8 and decrease the duration from 60 seconds > 30 seconds.
- Bad Man Keepsake: Survivor is notified when they are under the effects of this add-on, but change range from 28 meters > killer's TR. Duration remains the same.
Epilogue: Nurse is still a good choice!
Overall, Nurse is still a great killer to be reckoned with in the fog, and you shouldn't let the nerfs distract you from the goods that came with this rework.
I'm willing to discuss this topic with anyone — keep it civilized! ??
Thank you for participating in my Ted-Talk.Pretty much everything you said is false and/or misinformed. Nurse has never been unfair for survivors aside from Omega blink. There is plenty of counterplay available. Her chases were not hurt too badly, but her map control has taken a nosedive: you can't cover enough ground anymore. This means that you pretty much have to do some form of slugging/proximity camping.
As for her addons, she has 4 viable choices, all of which help reduce blink recovery or range. The rest of her addons are #########, ghetto versions of a perk, troll BP addons, or things that actively make her worse to play.
It's funny. BHVR wanted "more counterplay" but instead made it so that the remaining Nurse players have to play far more lame in order to win.
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@ScottJund said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/825371#Comment_825371
You're not getting the example. She ends her phase early right at the pallet. The survivor is at the other side of the pallet. The Survivor either drops the pallet or gets hit. Either way, after breaking the pallet you probably have another 3-4 seconds before your power is back because you stopped it way earlier than the full power. Its pretty unlikely the Survivor is going to beat you to yet another pallet in that short time, and if they do, its the same exact scenario repeated, except you're blowing through all the pallets in the map in seconds, completely ruining your team's chances.
I understood. If she has to break the pallet then that’s a ton of distance, especially against a 110 killer. At that point, depending on the map, you could even break LOS and mix her up with your scratchmarks. Or you could just go to another loop spot. Either way, you can effectively waste her time. She does get rid of pallets faster than other killers but a good team will still get the gens done.
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@ScottJund said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/825345#Comment_825345
Vaulting makes sound. She can gauge distance between you and a nearby pallet and determine if she has enough time to beat you to the pallet. If she doesn't, she simply ends her power early, significantly shortening the cool down. Then the survivor throws the pallet down, at which point the Spirit just breaks it and then uses her power again in 5 seconds to catch the survivor in the open.
Okay so then she ends her phase early and is then a 110 killer until the power comes back, which varies with addons. You can then create distance and go to another loop. In this scenario, Spirit’s chase time is already approaching that of a standard m1 killer.
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@ScottJund said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/825336#Comment_825336
...you know The Spirit can hear the survivors pain sounds, their breathing sounds, their footsteps, see their scratch marks, see the grass they move, literally collide with them, etc. right? There's no prediction for the Spirit at that point.
Also what does "Feel it out" mean? If I start phase walking and hit you in 5 seconds, what the hell did you feel out? "Oh she went invisible and hit me, I will now base my predictions on this."
Like come on man.
It goes both ways. She can’t possibly know if you are going to window vault, when you are going to throw down pallets or how you mix up your scratch marks/walking. If you are in the open then yes you will probably be hit, but that is true for every killer.
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@ScottJund said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/825312#Comment_825312
And how do you predict somebody who you've had exactly 0 seconds of interactions with at the start of a game?
The same way she predicts a survivor that she has never faced before. Feel it out, get a sense for how they play.
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@ScottJund said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/823039#Comment_823039
The problem is everyone that has gotten to that skill level is knowledgable enough about the game to know that Spirit counters are mostly luck if no perks are involved, so they don't even want to waste time testing it. I can't think of a single notable excellent survivor player that doesn't think Spirit's counterplay is mostly just guessing correctly.
Guessing isn’t luck. Predict what the Spirit is going to do and outplay her.
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The DC trend should make it more obvious than ever that people want the game to be balanced around what lets them win, not what is actually fair or balanced.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/821324#Comment_821324
you have recharge time, reduced fatigue time, increased blink window aka longer chain blink, reduced missed swing time fatigue, and increased distance. That off the top of my head. If you mean types of add-ons, then yes theres only like 4 or 5 but that's true of most killers.. Just because you play her doesn't mean you know whats good or not.
Actually, it does. I’ve tried all of the other addons. They don’t do anything.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/821121#Comment_821121
that's your opinion, some people use stridor and shadowborn because they say it helps tracking survivors during fatigue. Maybe that add-on is bad, but there's still more usable ones than 4. They're not on the level of old omega blink and chain blink, but that was kinda the point.
The only utility comes from the recharge and distance blinks. The others are worthless. I am a dedicated nurse main- I know what’s good and what isn’t.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/821067#Comment_821067
Having a perk as an add-on opens more slots for other perks, in case you haven't realized, that's not bad. I counted at least 13 add-ons that are a just a straight benefit not counting the meme BP ones. 2 or 3 of them are debatable so at least 10/11.
Except that stridor isn’t good on Nurse. I don’t need it to track. The healing one is useless because it has a short duration and only works after you hit someone. Unless the survivor is exceptionally dumb, they won’t be healing near you less than a minute after being hit. These addons are trash
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@MrPenguin said:
Sure lets ignore the rest of her add-ons that are more usable because we have 2 that will rarely appear and can be ignored. Guess it'd be better if the ultra rares were good and the rest were trash instead ? there's definitely more than 4 usable add-ons what are you even talking about. I swear this post is a crying bad nurse echo chamber for people who needed omega blink.
She's not crippled hello? If you miss 8/10 blinks then yeah you'll struggle. Land your blinks, oh look chase is over in 3 more seconds than before. You want more map control than base, there's add-ons for that. Unfun is subjective, my fiance is having fun no problem. If you're not having fun with a killer, than switch to another killer. Its what I did with legion, its what I did with pig, it's what I'll do if they change another killer I play to be unfun to me.
I consistently 4ked with base Nurse, and usually still do. What are these magical add ons you are referencing? Ghetto stridor (itself bad on Nurse), ghetto nurse’s? Oh maybe you mean the screaming add on that gives more points....
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/818177#Comment_818177
Ok you seem to be fundamentally misunderstanding what nurse muscle memory is. If you equip the flannel, as you charge the little light will move at a set speed, that speed is a visualization of what other people have memorized aka the muscle memory. As long as that is not changed the muscle memory is not affected. Chain window, current max charge time add-ons, and recharge time don't change this. You are extending muscle memory to things that have nothing to do with it. Play style is not muscle memory.
The pocket watch does not change this, and neither do range increases because they let you charge longer to go farther, but the speed at which your destination moves is the same. Your first blink will not take longer to charge if you want to go the same distance as before the add-on. In my experience and others I talked to at least, its exactly the same. It does not give you more time to charge you chain blink, that's just pocket watch. It will take longer to reach full charge because full charge takes you further.
Also you're not "forced to walk around walls" it's an add-on. If you don't like it just don't pick it up in the bloodweb or use it. Not all add-ons are equal and nurse wouldn't be the first with some questionable pink add-ons.
Shouldn’t we not want killlers to have worthless pink addons? It’s particularly frustrating that they spent time and resources on her addon “rework” and the end is result is that she now has 4 worthwhile addons (2 of which only mitigate the base nerf). This rework was a complete failure
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@Usui said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/819535#Comment_819535
I promise I have more time then you in this game, you're very wrong.
If you have been doing something wrong, it doesn’t matter it is for 6 hours or 600 hours. You aren’t learning, regardless.
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@hiC said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/818948#Comment_818948
This also bothers me. I have plenty of trials that are fun where I die for 4 survivors get out and I still have fun. Winning and fun are not mutually exclusive.
Then you are in the minority. How many threads on this forum and on the steam forums are created out of pure salt? Most people are mad when they lose.
@Usui said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/818868#Comment_818868
Nurse in itself can never be fun survivor side because it breaks every game mechanic, there was never any outplay, a practiced nurse just obliterates any team, solo or SWF.
100% untrue. Nurse was able to be and is able to be countered. You haven’t looked into it if you truly believe that.
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@MonsterInMyMind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/818326#Comment_818326
Skill is not guessing that would be a coin flip situation skill is outplaying the other guessing is not skill.
Insta heals actually did have a counter franklins you cant insta without the med kit :)
Honestly i feel you missed my point though you said you cant nerf based off fun and the devs did indeed take vac pallets away because killers felt they were unfun they did the same to insta heals because killer said they were not fun.
Point being when you say you cant nerf based on fun then that means killers cant complain about Haddionfield Insta heals Vac Pallets old Selfcare Old BT Old DS basically i took what you said flipped it and applied it to all the things killers asked for changes based on their fun.
If you can’t agree that predicting other people isn’t skillful, then there is nothing else to say.
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@MonsterInMyMind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/818285#Comment_818285
I mean with that logic Insta heals should come back old vac pallets should come back just because its not fun for you didnt mean it was not fun for someone else and hey you said it yourself you cant justify nerfs based on fun :)
Also thats the thing about that argument that can be flipped really quick.
Actually, my argument still holds up against that. Old instaheals required no mindgames or skill to use (unlike spirit who makes you guess) Instaheals being removed was a logical balancing change because there was actually no counter.
I also wouldn’t care if you did revert the change tbh.
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@Peanits said:
To say that nobody asked for changes is objectively untrue. It doesn't take much searching to find a whole trove of videos, threads, and comments about The Spirit. I think you're missing the point of the argument, it's very rarely about how powerful she is, it's about not being fun to play against. You cannot tell someone that they're having fun when they're not, that's not up to you to decide.
If you want to argue that a video game shouldn't be fun to play, I'm not sure what to say at that point.
Their lack of fun is rooted in the fact that they don’t know how to play against her and are losing. Part of the fun in video games is supposed to be learning and overcoming challenges. While I obviously can’t tell someone if they are having fun or not, I don’t think you can justify nerfs based on someone’s fun. Most people are babies and get mad anytime they lose.
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@AGuyNamedKane said:
She's still a fantastic killer, players just need to adjust with the changes a bit. Adapt and you'll conquer.
Adapt? You mean the same way survivors adapted to her by begging for help? Will do.
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@arslaN said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/813831#Comment_813831
I asked you before, if it's an actual guess, why does she have collision with survivors? That's not a guess at all, the game tells you when you found someone. If it's a guess, why can she hear injured noises? Listening isn't a guess. Why does she have so much information on what survivors are doing but survivors don't have anything?
Collision is good for her, but it mostly occurs out in the open, which other killers will also be able to down. It's difficult to tell and react within enclosures if you are colliding with objects or people, so I don't think it's that insane.Grunts still don't tell you what side of the window/pallet the survivors are on
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@hiC said:
I don’t understand this post or why it’s upvoted so much.
Games that are balanced are fun. How can you refute that?
If you keep this game balanced it will remain fun. If you can improve the balance it will me more fun for more people. If you don’t improve balance where possible, it will be less fun.
Plenty of legitimate criticism that is explained way beyond ‘it’s not fun’ has been provided for Spirit and generator speed. Anyone agreeing with this post isn’t actually paying attention to the discussions.
Actual discussion: I can’t impose loops on Spirit when she phases, therefore she is broken. I have to guess, like with almost every other game known to man.
On a more serious note, a game’s balance is subjective. Plenty of survivors on this forum would be A okay with legitimate infinites being in the game because they find them “fun”. Why is asking people to learn so taboo?
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@Jaguar3500 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/811698#Comment_811698
So, you were claiming it to not be a guessing game, now you agree it is, you can dodge a Huntress hatchet very easily, you can tell when a killer hides their red stain most of the time so it is not as much of a guessing game as you say other killers are. When 86% (Scott’s poll) and devs claiming she ‘overperforms’, you are refusing blatant facts at this point. I’m more of a killer main before you start yelling ‘SURVIVOR MAIN’ and Spirit is unhealthy, much like gen rush, keys, moris and insta downs.
From reading each of your responses it is clear that you arent even willing to accept another point of view because you still think that guessing is counterplay. It is not. Not. Not. I repeat...NOT counterplay. Go ahead, convince me guessing is counterplay. I’m willing to listen and change my pov.
So if it’s not a guess, what is it then? Should it be linear, unmindgameable loops? It sounds like most people arguing here just want a bulletproof option that the killer can’t do anything about. Not a single person in this thread has been able to answer this question. Guessing is one of the purest forms of pvp. Everything else is pretty much just handholding or crap designed to help bad players feel powerful.
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@knell said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/812791#Comment_812791
"The point people are making is that the guessing game isn't skill, it's guessing. Guessing isn't fun for most people."
I wouldn't say "most people." In fact, I would go even further and say that most people enjoy the "guessing" aspects of games, and that most games in the world have some sort of "guessing" elements in them, whether they are games that are worldly known like Poker (bluffing games) and Blackjack (probability/risk taking games), or popular games like Werewolves/Mafia (social deduction games) or any games with heavy luck element. Whether you refer to them as 'educated guesses' or 'intuition/guts' they are one of the most important aspects of many, many games. Don't disregard it just because some people on here are trying to use it as an excuse to buff/nerf some things to their liking.
But if you are really concerned about "guessing" not being fun for people, how about we start by providing information for solo players so that they are not "guessing" about whether to go save someone on the hook or to remain on the generators, or "guess" how many totems are left or where the lit totems are on the map, especially if other survivors have seen it before being chased away from it. Because not only would it be "not fun" by your standard, it also continues to break the balance of this game. So two for one, you know.
I’m glad to see that i’m not the only one who is befuddled. Like literally every video game, from COD to Mortal Kombat, requires you to guess to some extent. Hell, even card games and chess require you to make reads.
There are SOME guessing games m1 killers can engage in, especially at unsafe loops. Maps like hawkins and badham use more unsafe pallets than other maps. Spirit just allows you to always be able to guess.
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@Peanits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/812818#Comment_812818
You absolutely can zone someone. Having to run past you means that they get less distance. A straight line to the next pallet is shorter than a line going around the loop they're at to get to the next pallet.
I've whipped up a couple crude examples to illustrate it. Say the killer is the blue dot, the green line is a pallet, and the red line is the path the survivor needs to take to get to the next pallet as soon as possible. To the left is either the edge of the map or a zone with no more pallets.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/581/FQ90D3NUTNM4.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/176/DY6G1HH6ZCSP.png
Which would you rather take? The top one would mean they're half way to the next pallet by the time you finish breaking it, the bottom one means that by the time you finish break it, they're just past the end of the wall.
RE: Huntress: It's definitely not the same. You can see her get a hatchet ready and try to break LoS. You can also react once she throws the hatchet if you're good enough. You even get an audio cue to tell when she's charging a hatchet even if you can't see her.
I’m not sure which tile the graphic represents, but if it’s something like the hay bale/tractor on cowshed, then the survivor could just run (up on the graphic) to the nearest jungle gym; they don’t have to run across.
Breaking LOS means that Huntress can’t get a reliable shot of any kind, so there isn’t really a guess in that situation. I’m very skeptical of reacting to hatchets, especially a fully charged one- it travels insanely fast. Dedicated servers have also made reacting worse than before, which is why dead hard gets eaten up so often.
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@Peanits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/812767#Comment_812767
You can also zone survivors back into an area with no pallets. Walk around to the other side so they're on the side that they just came from or so they're up against the outer wall, then break the pallet. Now they're either forced to run past you to get to the next pallet or run back to an area with no pallet.
The point people are making is that the guessing game isn't skill, it's guessing. Guessing isn't fun for most people. To give a more direct example, the Huntress can throw a hatchet at a survivor before they reach the next pallet. This requires the killer to be in a good position and to aim the hatchet correctly (predicting how the survivor will dodge as well). Both sides can see what the other is doing and react. For the Spirit, they just have to make a guess and hope it works. There's a lot less interaction there.
You can’t zone someone into an area with fewer pallets when there are safe pallets nearby. Farm maps are an especially big offender of this. They are almost guaranteed to reach something like a farmhouse or cow loop, regardless of where you break the pallet.
The example you gave is almost the same as spirit. There is no way to reliably “react” to huntress throwing a hatchet, other than seeing she is about to throw one. Once she lets it go, you do not have time to see where the hatchet is traveling. You have to guess ahead of time or you will almost certainly get hit.
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@ScottJund said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/811698#Comment_811698
You can't destroy Spirits power. You can kick a safe pallet. Huge difference
The difference is that you HAVE to break a safe pallet, and at that point, they can then just run to another safe loop. The process repeats itself. With spirit, you can guess right and still waste a ton of her time, or she can guess right and get a hit. How is her interaction not far more balanced?
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Yea... a standard part of any pvp game. Survivors should just be able to enforce safe loops with no guess? Doesn’t seem fun or skillful to me.
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@arslaN said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/811639#Comment_811639
That's definitely a strat you can do against spirit but I don't see how that's reading your opponent. It comes down to "I hope she guesses wrong" at the end.
Shouldn’t the game be about the person who is the most in their opponent’s head? Like what is the alternative?
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@arslaN said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/811630#Comment_811630
How can I read my opponent then? Please give me some examples (without perks).
You predict them. The standard guessing game against spirit is what side of the pallet you are on. While she is shifting, run to a pallet, put it down, and then wait for a bit. Already, a good chunk of spirits are going to be hit by that pallet because they expect you to wait until you see her (bad idea for the survivor to do). Once that’s established, she will then guess what side you will put it down on. From there you can choose what side or try to sneak away from the loop
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@arslaN said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/811585#Comment_811585
Of course you can easily deal with spirit in a 4 man swf if your team is good enough. Just because of the fact that swf teams can do gens insanely fast. I played in 4 man swf teams before and we dominated most spirits quite easily. It is an entirely different story in solo teams however.
Swf makes no sense from a balance standpoint but it shouldn't be removed because it is a fun addition and draws more people to play. What should be done is to make swf more fair against killers, not just remove it. If we ignore fun, let's just remove it for the sake of balance, right?
Devs themselves said that they want killers to be fun to play as and fun to play against. It seems like that was completely ignored when it comes to spirit.
This isn't even close to a competitive game. What's the point of playing the game if it isn't fun? What is the point of playing the game if it comes down to random guessing games and my skill doesn't really matter much? It doesn't really feel like I outplay or get outplayed by spirit. It's just "I guessed right" or "I guessed wrong". That's how I feel at least.
There is skill involved in guessing. You have to read your opponent.
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@MagnetBeard said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/811448#Comment_811448
Dude, while I agree that being good doesn't mean a person's opinion is automatically right, when a majority of people you ask about a topic have similar viewpoints (demonstrated from top to bottom skill level wise) you need to honestly step back and question whether or not you, one of the few who don't have a similar viewpoint, are perhaps misinformed or flat out wrong.
And again, all of this is ignoring the fact that you still even throughout the course of this conversation don't seem to have a grasp on the fact that this is a CASUAL competitive game, so even more so than in standard competitive games fun is an incredibly valid and important concept in regards to balance. Since you are continuing to skirt this point and either rebute it or discuss merits and demerits of it as a concept (thus dumpstering the topic of discussion your initial post pretended to bring up) I'm done here and will instead be starting a conversation with my bedroom wall as it is bound to be more receptive to input.
Maybe dbd isn't your thing and you can go back to being a "top competitive fighting game player".
It’s casual and nothing really matters, yet we need to nerf things severely. That’s a dead end, contradictory argument.
@arslaN said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/811448#Comment_811448
How is guessing a good and fair mechanic exactly? It should be about outplaying your opponent. I don't consider myself outplaying her when I guess right and it definitely doesn't feel like I got outplayed when I bump into her while I'm trying to avoid her.
Let's say I threw down a pallet and she is standing still. I can't know if she is even using her power. That's already one guess. I guess that she is using her power, and decide to go to the right. Oh no, I bumped into her, totally outplayed right? Not really, I just guessed wrong. There was literally nothing I could do to figure out that she would go that way, it's just a random guess.
Removing her collision with survivors would make these moments a lot more fair.
Guessing is a part of literally every pvp game. It requires you to get in your opponent’s head and outplay them. It seems like you think that survivors should be able to impose their will at safe loops. If you are unwilling to recognize that guessing is in every game, I don’t know what to tell you.
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@Lufanati said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/811075#Comment_811075
Playing a guessing game is not counterplay, silly
Yes, it 100% is. If you guess right, she loses a ton of time. If she guesses right, you get hit. It’s 10 times more fair than poor pig or trapper being forced to eat a cow loop with little to no counterplay.
@MagnetBeard said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/811406#Comment_811406
Are you suggesting that the multiple streamers and content creators that literally play dbd for a living and are considered by many to be some of the best players in the world haven't done their "homework" and don't have a single clue what they're talking about?
Think for a moment how arrogant you sound saying that.
In regards to the spirit again, I don't tend to have as much problem with her as many others, however, if a feature or concept of a game isn't readily understandable to a majority of players (many of which upper tier players) then it's poor design and is likely unbalanced.
I get it man, a few months back everyone was crying about Billy (arguably the most balanced killer in the game) being unfun and unbalanced, and I laughed at them, like, hard, then people started getting better at countering him and that subsided. Then it shifted to spirit and I had the same response as I chuckled at people I thought were just bad. Then the months pressed on and on and on and on, and I continued to watch how others interacted with her and tried to counterplay her, watched as numerous top tier players said they'd agreed that she was unfun and unbalanced and realized just because I didn't have a problem doesn't mean she's not a problem.
In regards to whether or not "fun" should be considered in balance decisions (your original "point") before most of this thread derailed into a spirit discussion (though, she is a very good example as to why whether or not something is fun matters in the current state of play). Yea dude, it should. This is supposed to be a video game, not a slough down in a mine, and FROM THE JUMP, as in SINCE RELEASE, it's been a casual game, and fun matters even more in casual games.
I’ve been a top competitive fighting game player. One thing i’ve learned is that just because someone is top doesn’t mean their opinions hold much weight: some top players have outrageously bad opinions. It’s not a blow up, but being good doesn’t validate your opinions.
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@MonsterInMyMind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/811308#Comment_811308
Okay so if you believe there is counterplay then you would have no problem showing it correct? if so @ScottJund im sure would love to see this so called counterplay you have.
Its one thing to sit behind a keyboard and claim a character has counterplay but if you claim she does then i suggest you show this counterplay because im sure a lot of us would love to see scotts challenge accepted.
I’m down for any challenge.
@MagnetBeard said:
While I understand where you're coming from, the part I think you're missing is that dbd isn't intended to be a "competitive" game in the sense that you think it is.
Dbd is like the drinking game "Cornhole". It's meant to be fun, but it'll probably never be on ESPN. Sure, some people might git gud enough at it to play it for a living but...
Dbd isn't CS:GO. It's not Hearthstone. It's not LoL. It's a fun party game. If you don't realize that I suggest you watch the rivals event that happened on Halloween, literally some of the best players in the world competing against each other and they were just having fun.
And as for "looping and gen rushing" not being fun for you, as killer it's not just cat and mouse. The main element of the game for killer that determines a win is map control and time management. If you actually hate getting looped or dealing with objective centric survivor teams (which yea I agree, gen times are getting a bit nuts these days and need a look) then don't play killer. That's literally the role.
I play both sides, and I dare say I play both sides quite well. And I get your frustrations there's some major balance issues with the game, but I also get the frustrations of those upset about spirit (though I tend to fare against her better than most). You don't have a right to discredit other people's opinions.
After all, dbd is intended to be the world's best FUN party game that's horror themed.
People are entitled to their feelings, but they shouldn’t be giving balance suggestions if they haven’t done their homework.
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@MonsterInMyMind said:
The problem is fun is actually a core part of video games if something is not fun for a majority of the community it is indeed a problem and Spirit is indeed not fun for a majority of the community which is a problem no ones asking for nerfs to spirit people are asking for counterplay theres a difference she lacks actual counters her whole kit is a one sided mind game.
In regards to NOED most people are tired of killers who do nothing get rewarded with a free down which i can completely agree with as i play both killer and survivor i have seen my fair share of camping killers and or killers who failed to apply pressure get rewarded for nothing.
Also another common complaint about NOED is it punishes the survivors for doing the core objective which to an extent it can feel like a punishment but it is what it is.
Lastly the point of a video game is to be fun and you are correct fun is subjective but when a majority of the community including killers are saying Spirit is unfun there's a problem there and it should be addressed in regards to NOED i wish there was more of a way to make it to where a killer has to atleast do something to earn NOED maybe a certain amount of hooks or something.
I might be convinced if people were attempting to learn and counter spirit. If she’s still unfun, then fine. But I can tell both from the way people talk and from my games as Spirit that most people have no idea what they are doing.
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@Desolate_Sands said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/811111#Comment_811111
There isn't a foolproof way to counter M1 killers unless you are at a safe pallet. There is 0 feedback on what a spirit is doing most of the time. She doesn't even have a vault animation. You just kinda walk around and hope she sucks. That's not fun at all, and doesn't give the survivors much room to outplay her.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/811107#Comment_811107
Latency and hitboxes are entirely separate issues. There are a million ways to keep yourself out of a chase with a killer, but once you are in it, the flag drops. And if you are in a chase with spirit, it's basically a coin flip and you pray she is bad.
Yea but there are numerous safe loops on most maps. They are especially bad on farm maps. Most killers have no answers.
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@Desolate_Sands said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/811075#Comment_811075
Lol, clearly didn't watch the video, where it's mentioned that playing against the spirit feels like a coin flip.
Either way a pointless conversation. Dev's have acknowledged she is overpowered, and she will be nerfed in the future.
What is wrong with it being a guess? This talking point is insane. You’re basically saying that survivors should just have a foolproof, safe way to counter her, as they do against most m1 killers. Killers should NOT constantly be in a guess that is dictated by the survivor. That is a terrible philosophy.
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@MonsterInMyMind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/811034#Comment_811034
The problem is its not learning how to go against her because you cant really learn how to go against her what is there to learn?
She can go invisible which leaves little to no counterplay you cant actually mind game her bro and you cant argue perks counter her as you cant tell what killer you are facing before you get into a match.
You don’t need perks to mind game the spirit. Against her, you need to put down pallets early and use windows as much as you can. Putting down the pallet forces her to guess which side you’ll be on or if you abandon the loop altogether. If she guesses right, she gets a hit. If you guess right, she is then a 110 killer with no way of closing the gap.
She has plenty of counterplay, people refuse to learn it.
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@MonsterInMyMind said:
The problem is fun is actually a core part of video games if something is not fun for a majority of the community it is indeed a problem and Spirit is indeed not fun for a majority of the community which is a problem no ones asking for nerfs to spirit people are asking for counterplay theres a difference she lacks actual counters her whole kit is a one sided mind game.
In regards to NOED most people are tired of killers who do nothing get rewarded with a free down which i can completely agree with as i play both killer and survivor i have seen my fair share of camping killers and or killers who failed to apply pressure get rewarded for nothing.
Also another common complaint about NOED is it punishes the survivors for doing the core objective which to an extent it can feel like a punishment but it is what it is.
Lastly the point of a video game is to be fun and you are correct fun is subjective but when a majority of the community including killers are saying Spirit is unfun there's a problem there and it should be addressed in regards to NOED i wish there was more of a way to make it to where a killer has to atleast do something to earn NOED maybe a certain amount of hooks or something.
I’d argue that the people complaining about Spirit would have more fun if they learned how to go against her. Instead they complain, put in no effort, and beg for nerfs.
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Ruin is essential. Those who are saying that it only buys you a little time are correct, but every second matters against a competent team.
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@GrootDude said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/805750#Comment_805750
Then I suppose your reaction would be the same if this didn’t only affect one side?
I’ve had my share of rough queues. I’ve also encountered my share of toxic groups, so I have to treat them all the same as killer.
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@GrootDude said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/805740#Comment_805740
So despite us not running or doing the things you dislike, we shouldn’t find lobbies? This is happening as solo too btw.
Nah, i’m just saying i’m not upset about it lol.
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@GrootDude said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/805726#Comment_805726
I don’t use any of those and neither did the rank 16. We didn’t even communicate the killers location that well.
Well then that’s on you lol.
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@GrootDude said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/805426#Comment_805426
Not like it would be hard for a red rank killer to kill my rank 16 friend.
No, but chase speed doesn’t matter when everyone knows where the killer is at all times and all have adrenaline, dstrike and borrowed time. Potato survivors can win in SWF.
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Let me break out the world’s tiniest violin for all those friends groups not getting games....
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@Weederick said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/804769#Comment_804769
Spirit lacks map pressure. Huntress sucks at map pressure with a much weaker chase. Yet both are toptier, you only need one or the other, not both.
Nurse mains are just spoiled from her previous godlike status. All you're describing are normal killer problems. Welcome to dbd
That’s the problem though: “normal killer problems” aren’t fair. It is literally impossible to control the match if survivors just choose to slam gens. This is not how the game should be balanced.
@noneofyourbusiness said:
the subject of this discussion is "Nurse is not top tier anymore" everyone know this is not true, so we can end this discussion here, there's nothing here to add
This adds nothing to the discussion. What’s funny is that everyone questioning the Nurse nerfs has legitimate talking points. People saying the nerfs were justified have no rebuttal or anything beyond “get gud” or, my least favorite, “NUrSe bReAks dA GAME”. Come back when you have an actual argument.
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@MegMain98 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/803899#Comment_803899
I never said it was 100% foolproof. I said it WASN’T foolproof nor should it be.
”This line of thinking is an indictment to our community”.
We all have varying opinions my dude. No need to chastise others for how they think. I don’t know where you got idea that I believe survivors should dictate how long they can run a killer around because I never said that. You're twisting words into your favor
It should be survivor skill vs killer skill. However with Nurse and Spirit, survivor skill means little to none. It is “How good is the Nurse” or “Can the Spirit hear me”. Your skill as a survivor doesn’t mean much unless you’re running certain perks. You can’t mindgame those two killers.
People who can play against a Nurse will eventually go down either way. Pretty soon as a matter of fact. A good Nurse can just dominate and end chases super quickly.
I can play against a Nurse but a lot of the times she predicts right and I get downed. It’s all apart of her gameplay. If she predicts right then you are dead. Especially against a good Nurse.
“If she predicts right” means you should get hit. If you predicted right, she misses. It doesn’t get any more fair than that.