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smurf
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3833826#Comment_3833826
Your idea is correct, in theory. In practice, however, the SBMM system is completely non-functional, at least in my experience. There is just no consistency whatsoever in the level of players you are matched with/against. As solo q survivor, I'll get matched with brand new players one match, lose, and then get matched with great, experienced players the next. Same thing on the killer side. I'll get matched against a full team of 8,000-hour+ players one match and then total noobs the next.
I'll never be convinced that the SBMM system actually worked until the devs provide us with our MMR scores and show everyone else's in endgame lobbies. That's never going to happen, and I believe the reason is will never happen is because it will reveal that it doesn't actually work.
That's fair. I think DBD's SBMMR system is integrated into an algorithm that prioritizes matchmaking speed too, which probably contributes to a lot of these problems.
For me it tends to make sense to be matched up with players who are more or less talented than I am to get a match in less than five minutes. But that might also be why sometimes I get pretty weird matches.
I know personally, I don't tunnel or camp outside of bully squads, and sometimes I have an easy time, but others, I'll get outplayed. Sounds like a pretty similar experience to yours. I guess one difference is that I don't mind taking an occasional 1k or even 0k. But for me, I think my killer matches tend to balance out as expected with more wins than losses. Survivor though? It's been an absolute mess lately.
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@I_Cant_Loop said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3833814#Comment_3833814
Can you offer up some advice on how to win consistently as killer without ever camping or tunneling? If not, then I can assume that you are just simply trolling killer players
I think that if you're using camping and tunneling effectively, then when you stop using those tactics your kill rate will briefly decrease. Then after a little time, your MMR will drop and you'll face survivors you don't need to tunnel or camp against.
At that point, your skill keeps building as you use other approaches to killer gameplay and you optimize your playstyle. Then your MMR will slowly increase again, but without camping and tunneling :)
Having said that, I think some killers might not be suited for very top MMR play. Like Nurse and Blight might work well against the best survivors, but killers with lower mobility may struggle. My feeling is that when I hit that ceiling with a particular killer, that's where I play, and the MMR system will still match me with manageable survivors.
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@TotemsCleanser said:
Hatch sucks but others have explained why it should stay gameplay-wise. What baffles me is how much you guys care about the survivor escaping through it considering it a win. Who cares what they think? As killer, I see it as my win and their loss and that's it. Idgaf what they think. And what's more, if by escaping through hatch they feel some sort of accomplishment which makes them happy and encourages them to keep playing the game instead of feeling frustrated, more power to them tbh. In a way, we all win actually!
This is the best thinking in my opinion :)
Personally, I like hatch as a mechanic from both the killer and survivor sides, but in any case, if more than one player enjoys the match at the end, I think that's the best outcome. If the killer has a 3k, they have a good match already. If the survivor has a way how they can feasibly get out at the endgame, they get to have fun until the match is over, even if the killer finds them and takes a 4k.
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@MrMori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3832187#Comment_3832187
When I've killed the second to last survivor, and the hatch has spawned, my stomach sinks immediately. I begin sweating and my hands begin shaking. Then when the hatch spawns, the longer I search for it, I begin hyperventilating and my tears prick my eyes as I dread the intense distress I will feel as the last survivor stands on top of hatch and taunts me in front of everyone spectating. And it's worse the longer I search, that horrible uncertainty of not knowing if they've found it or not makes me want to vomit, I feel my stomach churning the longer I look for hatch. And if I see them on top of hatch, I just break down crying. I can't even muster to walk up and hit them to get them to leave, I just cry. Luckily, most people just jump in, but some players don't and it's so painful I want to tear my hair out and scream at the top of my lungs to make the pain go away. Sometimes I do.
But if I do manage to find and close hatch first, my torment is still not over… Because then I have to try and stop them from opening gates, which is almost even worse, especially if the gates are obscured. I feel myself panicking the longer EGC has gone on, second guessing my every checkup on each gate, wondering if the survivor has managed to outsmart me with every time I walk from one gate to the other, unsure if they've already opened the gate and are simply waiting for me to rub it in and tbag me. Once it reaches that point, if I notice a survivor standing there at that open gate, it takes every fiber of my being not to DC, but I have to stay strong. So I try to distract myself as the EGC slowly runs out, while my hands and sometimes my whole body shake and I try to calm myself down, telling myself it'll all be over in just a few minutes.
So I usually slug for the 4k instead.
This is very poetic; like, it's well written. But do some of those things actually happen to you in those situations or is this an exaggeration?
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@JonahofArk said:
Do people seriously get back to back games where killers slug? Enough to complain about it on multiple threads? I play daily for at least 5 hours, and I'll only experience a killer slugging maybe once or twice throughout the day... and they usually slug when the team is good at getting gens done... idk, may be my MMR is low or something cause I rarely get a killer who slugs for the sake of it. Someone clarify so i can understand please.
I think some people are experiencing this more in the context of slugging for 4k, but you raise a good question. With some streamers I watch who are clearly better than me at survivor, I do see full team slugging more often than I experience it.
Also, I recently accidentally full team slugged a group who didn't know to wait for saves. I didn't like that, so I put three of them on hooks and let the last one wiggle off so they could all unhook and reset to play the match :/
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3833761#Comment_3833761
killers based on how often they get a win (3k or 4k), tie (2k), or loss (0k or 1k). (With killers' scores are centered around a 60% kill rate.)
This is the part we're confused by. By "killers score" are you referring to the killer "character" or "player"? The kill rate is based off the first while match making is based off the latter.
Regardless of that train of thought, there's not going to be a clean solution to fixing "bad behavior". Incentives will only work for those who care, those that don't will continue as normal. Deincentivising (butchered spelling) would need to be extremely specific less you begin to remove player agency, which is a slippery slope. We'd agree that to truly curb it you'd need both.
Ah, I see the ambiguity I left in my statement. I was referring to the player's personal score based on previous matches. A person with no experience using Nurse can easily perform poorly :)
Though I guess you know how this works: there's also a player specific effect that carries over to all killers they use. If someone does well with a few killers, their MMR with other killers they use later is raised somewhat under the assumption that they have some basic knowledge of the way the game works. But each killer a person uses is assigned a killer-specific MMR for that specific player.
So the player-specific-killer-specific MMR is used to match a killer player against survivor players.
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@Anti051 said:
Not playing for hooks has nothing to do with finisher mori.
Knockdown playstyles have everything to do with off-the-hook perks and how horrible it is to play against "anti-tunnel" perks that can punish you even if you don't tunnel.
Don't most anti-tunnel perks deactivate after some amount of time being off hook?
I can see how WGLF or some similar perks might get abused by swfs if the heal rate is too high.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3833706#Comment_3833706
We're about 80% sure that's not how it works. Survivor players are matched with killer players based on their MMR. The kill rate is how well the collective players of that killer do, or more accurate, kill survivors. They aren't matched with a specific killer due to kill rates (ie a survivor wouldn't specifically be matched with a Wesker for surviving often). We could be wrong but we'd like solid proof first.
You kinda backed my point here on how it's the players fault. People keep thinking this or that leading them to do that or this. That isn't anyone's fault but the players.
Yeah, I fully agree that players should be more aware of how their playstyles affect other players' experiences.
I think the MMR system gives a score to survivors based on how often they escape through the gate (win) through hatch (tie) or get sacrificed (loss), and killers based on how often they get a win (3k or 4k), tie (2k), or loss (0k or 1k). (With killers' scores are centered around a 60% kill rate.) Then the system attempts to match survivors and killers with similar scores into matches, but also prioritizes matchmaking speed. I've heard people argue that this can lead to people needing to rely on tunneling, camping, etc. for wins if they want to stay at their MMR when they've overrelied on those tactics to get to their current MMR. It could be that those players would do those things anyway though :(
I guess the issue with these is that we can fix oppressive or abusive playstyles in two ways. Incentives/disincentives to push people toward fun playstyles can be coded in, or we can try to change the culture around the game. My feeling is that we should always promote a positive gaming culture, but we'll probably always have some players who play in ways that make their opponents' experiences worse than they should be. Then if we can't successfully manage the gaming experience through social incentives, updates to in-game effects will be needed. I suspect we'll generally need an approach incorporating both?
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3833551#Comment_3833551
The only thing that is the devs fault is issues that haven't been addressed. That 60 kill rate has zip to do with a lot of your original post. Also what do perks and gen times have to do with sweaty players who are tunneling and dancing on you?
They (the devs) didn't make it hell to play is what we're saying. As we've told Autharia above it's the fault of players. The devs didn't tell people to sweat an ocean. The devs didn't tell people to be arses to each other. The devs certainly don't hold loved ones hostage telling them to do this or that (that we know of). All those problems are laid at the players feet. Can the devs do something extreme and chain up every single problem? Maybe, but it's going to cost player agency and probably the life of the game.
Actually, the 60% kill rate is somewhat related to this. Survivors are matched against killers that are considered by their kill-rates to be likely to take out 60% of survivors on average.
That explicitly leads to pairings where these behaviors are happening. This is presumably because people some players think they have to try as hard as they can and 'win' at all costs, leading them to higher MMR than they should really be in.
When players tunnel and proxy camp and slug for 4k, they can easily increase their kill rate without needing much skill to do it. That gives them harder matches because the MMR system then sees their kill rate and gives them harder opponents. Then those players keep tunneling and camping because they don't even have the skill to compete with the players they're up against otherwise. The same thing happens to people who hide all match as survivors and get hatch all the time, and get out through the gate when their teammates are good.
Having said that, changing the 60% kill rate to 50% or 40% could lead to the same thing, though the dynamics of it might play out differently. So changing the target kill-rates may or may not solve the problem. But coding a prevention mechanism for some playstyles will directly impact player experience. This indicates that the solution to the problem of abusive playstyles could really be to code in prevention mechanisms for tunneling, camping, and other problematic playstyles.
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I think the Trapper tried being a survivor for a while, but he wasn't very good at doing gens.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3832727#Comment_3832727
Just curious - what is an acceptable level of effort that the killer is allowed to exert to try to win so that you won't complain?
I think it is somewhat expected for killers to play as they used to play, as if Old BBQ was still around: spreading hooks and prioritizing the stacks over actually killing survivors.
That doesn't mean people didn't camp, tunnel or slug in the past, because they did. But generally speaking you could expect a killer to play for 12 hooks and I don't think this will ever go away, even if the perk that encouraged this playstyle no longer exists. I still play that way.
Honestly, I think this could lead to fewer complaints and more overall enjoyment of the game by all players. It's definitely the case that the survivors need to feel threatened with elimination by the killer, but incentivising playstyles that allow the 80% of people in each match who are survivors to have fun (i.e. discouraging tunneling, camping, etc.) could go a long way to improving the experience for a lot of people. Especially because tunneling done effectively can end up destroying a whole team when a 3v1 gets created early.
Personally, if I have the same survivor hooked twice for some reason in the early game, I'll practically never put them in another hook for a while. Even if I down them, I'll leave them slugged so they can get back in the game and do stuff.
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@Skittlesthehusky said:
i agree that there needs to be some regulation in the forums. i feel less and less comfortable interacting with the community on here because there's barely any room other for discussions other than someone being displeased with an in-game interaction, derailing balancing conversations, or ragebait.
additionally, this type of culture seems to be harming the community overall and placing an impression on people that the only way they'll be heard is by being the same way, and it has become very disappointing to log into the forums and constantly seeing that sort of thing every day.a post that garners negativity receives more attention than a post that attempts to start a positive or informative conversation actively. i've tested this with my own positive threads. to me, it feels like there's no enjoyment with talking to others anymore. it's whoever screams the loudest to be heard.
i understand that people are disgruntled with the condition of the game, but turning this into an entire platform dedicated to that may as well solidify all the negative aspects of the game since that's all people can ever focus on nowadays. the forums have merely become a place for people to vent their emotions and form a chain of agreement, not to interact with others and be social.There was a post called "DBD - A Halloween Story" or something like that recently, where someone shared a heart-warming tale of a Meg that showed the killer the meaning of friendship... or something like that. But no joke, do a search for it if you want to read something cute :)
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@martin27 said:
Survivors have been super sweaty and super toxic when I was playing killer in the afternoon. Ashamedly I might allowed myself to become a toxic killer in response. Had a SWF that took 3 hook separation offering and map selection and all ran to a dead zone where it was impossible to hook and made sure to make lots of noise. Not even trying to be toxic but they got slugged because what else could I do and running unbreakable so I just spent the entire match stood there slugging when they got up and ended with 3K in the end. Needless to say I got some nasty messages for out playing a seriously boring game of their own making.
I mean, if that kind of thing happens, what else can you do? It's like when someone does a hook sabo, so you drop the slug and put pressure somewhere else (or go after the person hiding nearby).
I'd say there are definitely times when slugging is warranted, and times when it's just an obnoxious playstyle. And it's only my personal opinion, but I think what you did is fine :)
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3833232#Comment_3833232
I don't believe any of this. Killers were apparently slugging, camping, and tunneling 24/7/365 if you take this forum as fact for the past three years. Killers have always slugged for the 4K even when it was only hooks. Killers, especially mobile ones, have gone for only-slugging tactics before the finisher mori was introduced. All these problems already existed, and the finisher mori is barely a "prize" to actually motivate killers to play any harder to receive; it's an animation, nothing more. To say the finisher mori is making these problems significantly worse, I can only call that confirmation bias.
Confirmation bias is definitely a possibility. You're not wrong. But I have found that my experience has been much worse following the update. In the past, it was quite rare for me to see hard tunneling at the match start, and I've absolutely seen killers go out of their way to get their endgame mori.
I've even been hit on hook over and over again because the killer had the fourth downed near my hook when that survivor came in for a save before I could give up and give them a chance at hatch. The killer wanted me to give up instead of picking up the last survivor, which would have risked them using some wiggle off related perk and getting one of us a chance at getting out.
So there are at least some verifiable behaviors that have arisen as a result of the update. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the increased incidence of nominally bm playstyles I'm seeing is related as well. I do also definitely appreciate the opposing viewpoints from you and others; both are needed for a useful discussion :)
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@Caiman said:
What is the connection between round-start slugging and the finisher mori?
And matches have been all but over by 2 dead survivors for, what, years? Unless they have only 1 gen left, they have very little chance to win. What does finisher mori have to do with that?
The connection between whole team slugging and the finisher mori is that killers may be inclined to pursue any method to make it more likely to get to the last survivor. I don't think this particular behavior will increase too much outside of super high mobility killers (e g. Blight, Billy, etc.) since it's not likely too viable in most matches with slower killers. But a lot of people have talked about tunneling, camping, and slugging being more common in their matches after the finisher mori went live.
It may be that killers are seeing that there's a goal at the end of the match that they want to get to and feeling a bit more inclined to push to get to the finisher mori. Personally, I've seen much more aggressive use of what would normally be considered bm tactics in my own matches, and often feel less inclined to play survivor as a result since the update.
The connection with the finisher mori and two survivor left condition is that when a killer wants the finisher mori, they'll be more inclined to slug for a 4k when there's a prize for doing it. This I think is more prevalent now.
Hatch is meant to make the endgame not into a death hunt with no chance for the last survivor because then why would the last survivor even want to play it out? But slugging for the 4k forces that situation to happen, and now there's a reward for doing it.
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@radiantHero23 said:
Your getting slugged for the finisher mori at 5 gens?
How often does that occur?
I imagine OP was just using hyperbole a bit? I think a lot of people are experiencing a lot more tunneling, camping, and especially slugging for 4k since the finisher mori update was released.
I think it's pretty unusual for there to be endgame with zero gens done, but I do feel what OP is saying here. I've had similar experiences where it's hard to play a few games without seeing some of these things. And I've had days where every match has some or all of those behaviors. But before the update I thought these were somewhat uncommon, which made matches tolerable.
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@Yggleif said:
I'm convinced a meteor will hit the earth if we don't nerf pig occasionally and BHVR is saving us all by doing so. It's the only explanation.
Also there should be a leave alone option.
Boop the snoot is too powerful!
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@TheRealBATIM said:
Honestly, NOBODY is forcing you to play Dead By Daylight if you don't think the game meets your expectations or is no longer fun. I just don't understand why there is so much hate directed at killers. Yes, it can be boring to be tunneled, camped, etc., but is it really worth spending so much energy getting mad about something so insignificant? After all, it's just a game and there will always be situations that don't go your way.
To malloymk: How are killers actually "toxic"? I think the word "toxic" is used way too much and often completely wrong. In my experience, it's almost always survivors who start a discussion in the in-game chat where they threaten or bad behavior to other players because they don't like their playstyle. People have different ways of playing, and there must be room for that too. It's about having fun, and sometimes you just have to accept that others play differently than you do. :)
A lot of people really enjoy DBD or other games, but then encounter playstyles that lead to one or more players not being able to really participate in the game other than by essentially being bullied. And playing a game with other people in a way that makes those people unable to participate is bad sportsmanship regardless of the game being played.
In DBD, tunneling, camping, and slugging for 4k can all have that effect. Tunneling and camping can even ruin the entire match for someone, and it tends to make it impossible for the targeted player to involve themselves in the game except to be chased non-stop, often without being healed. Although a lot of people doing it don't see it this way, tunneling especially is really a bullying tactic that makes most people on the receiving end wonder why they even played that game. There are certain tactics a lot of games that might not be strictly prohibited by the rules, but nobody will want to play the game with anyone who plays in those ways.
I'd say that when people are seeing these behaviors more than normal, it's pretty reasonable to complain about it. When one or more players can completely remove the fun of the game from others through tactics that barely even have a counterplay by people experiencing those things, it's something the company that develops the game should see. That gives BHVR the ability to understand whether people are enjoying their game, and adjust it if needed.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3832915#Comment_3832915
But how do you explain these screenshots? Am I the unluckiest person? I have been seeing this picture with enviable consistency for several years now when I am not playing for 4 kills. Hatch is always given to the survivor, and I only see it when I am next to the survivor.
This is especially noticeable on The Onryō and Wesker. One literally had him appear next to the gate before escaping. The other literally gave him the second survivor's escape through the gate.
In this situation, I trust my eyes more than what is written somewhere.
Once a coincidence. The second time an accident. The third time a pattern.
Hard to say why you see that happening. Sometimes people can have confirmation bias (something like noticing when things agree with our suspicions or assumptions). Sometimes it could be luck.
I guess it's also not impossible that your survivors go to hatch spawn locations when it's time. I know that if I'm not far from a known hatch spawn location when my last teammate gets picked up on death hook, I'll get in a locker nearby if possible. That gives me a small chance to be right next to hatch when it opens if I was lucky enough to choose right. And the locker should keep me invisible to BBQ.
It used to be the case that during the match you could literally walk on top of the invisible hatch and know its location before it opened because your character (survivor or killer) would stand up just a little higher when you were on top of it.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3832680#Comment_3832680
It's true. Hatch always has the ability to appear next to a survivor. Which means the killer can't afford unnecessary risks.
Here are images taken over several years as proof. With some luck, the survivor could even escape!!! Now imagine what happens when you hang a survivor on a hook instead of a slug.
The hatch location is predetermined at the beginning of the trial and is revealed and opened only once one survivor remains.
It's proximity with respect to the killer and survivor at the moment it's revealed is dependent only on where the killer and survivor happen to be standing when hatch opens. Its position is essentially completely random and not biased toward the survivor or killer.
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@Akumakaji said:
I don't know how often I proposed my absolute favorite thing that BHVR could possible introduce: a new, general killer perk called "Just Leave!". I would equip this perk on all my killers first perk slot and never take it off, ever again.
- If survivors linger in the exit gate area for 40/30/25s the Entity blocks the exit gates, their aura is shown to the killer and they become exposed.
- The gates stay blocked as long as the survivor lingers in the exit gate area and in a 24m radius around them.
- If the killer downs the survivor in the exit gate area, the survivor can be moried.
- If the survivor leaves via the exit gates before the gates get blocked, they get a "7.000BP Awesome person" score event.
Haha! That's fun!
I know a lot of survivors, including myself, linger around the gate region at endgame to heal and get other survivors out, but this could also encourage everyone to be smart and just hide near the gates instead. People hanging out to teabag, well... Maybe they get a lesson :)
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@Prometheus1092 said:
I stand by my opinion that hatch should go completely. No hatch means no reason for 2 v 1 stand off, no more extra chance at escape (that doesn't even count in win rates) and no reason to drag the match on any longer than needed. Survivors should do gens and escape via gate. Failing that it's match over, they get sacrificed, better luck next match. Ye they could still hide the match out but there would no reason to other than being toxic (server end game would mean they get sacrificed anyway). Bottom line is, if there is a hatch, the killer will slug just before it becomes available. If hatch spawned at 2 survivors left killer would slug 3 survivors. People already hate it when killers slug but part of the reason is the mori system but its partly due to the hatch too.
Hatch really isn't a reason to slug for 4k though. Whatever path is given as an escape for the last survivor, there are some players who will try to bypass it if there's a way to do that. The reason people are doing these things is that they're worried about not completely dominating a match whenever possible.
The problem is that slugging for 4k really puts the killer into an extreme power position over the last survivor. But each match is really meant to involve a set of mini-games between each survivor and the killer. The only advantage the survivors have is that at the start of the game, they have each other to potentially rely on. Once there's one survivor left, there's no realistic way for the survivor to hope to escape in most matches. This is the effect that slugging for a 4k achieves; it creates an extraordinarily imbalanced game almost like a hunter hunting a defenseless animal in an enclosed arena. There's no sport in it.
Some people will also complain that hatch is rng based, so sometimes they're not going to be lucky. But sometimes they are lucky and will easily find hatch first. So in this way, hatch can be viewed as a mechanic that simply balances the odds between killer and survivor. But hatch race is actually killer sided since the killer has higher move speed and doesn't have to hide if the survivor shows up. That means the killer should be easily covering more ground and often preventing the survivor from getting to common hatch spawn locations.
Hatch is really just a way to make the game more fun and fair in what would otherwise be a drawn out game of hide-and-seek that the killer has an extreme advantage in. I find it pretty petty to put someone playing a game with me in that kind of situation unless they've been doing some bm themselves. I say all this because I've seen a lot of people say that hatch is the problem. But hatch isn't causing people to do this; that's just the player wanting an easy kill.
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I love red light, green light! And as Pig I start all my races with a roar!
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All fair! I was mostly just trying to be friendly, but also tend to talk a bunch about whatever I think :)
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3832686#Comment_3832686
Ha fair
Now in seriousness how are they going to punish that is the thing? You can make a argument that they could railroad players for tunneling but how the stupid dance (what was refered to as "humped") without going into intent. And why stop there? What about being gen rushed and survivors "twerking"? The devs fault and are supposed to railroad that too?
We're not even remotely convinced that the bad behavior of players is the devs fault. The devs can't control how people play without limiting everything so there's only one way too play. Is that what you really want? If so then fair enough, but we'll fight every step of the way.
Someone mentioned in another post that some of these behaviors can be handled. Like at the exit gates, teabagging can be moderated by having the game count the number/rate of crouches you do and if you exceed a certain rate/number when you could otherwise escape, put an entity block on the gates for some time. And the entity block duration increases if you keep doing it. Then if you crouch a few times to thank the killer or duck Vecna's power, no problem, but if you teabag too many times, your exit is briefly blocked.
The W+D thing though would be very hard to moderate.
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@KoreWaPantsu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3832439#Comment_3832439
Please, go play killer for a LONG while, then come back and type the same thing.
Before the mori stuff I usually don't gift survivors with a free exit, 'cause when the match goes wrong for me as a killers, survivors leave me nothing, just waiting at the the exit for tbagging.
In my opinion (i'll try to not be offensive) survivor players only are just spoiled. Explore the game from both sides (consistently), you'll see the game in a different light, trust me.
I think most people here are playing both killer and survivor. There are definitely squads that will give killers a challenge, but I really find killer is a much easier role than survivor.
And as killer, I generally see very little toxic or bm behavior from survivors. I barely ever see teabagging at gates, and I find teabags at pallets are usually just a method to get on your nerves with the survivor hoping to get you to tunnel and thinking they're really good in chase.
Until you get to top levels of talent, I'd say Killers are given more than survivors by far.
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@Toystory3Monkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3832568#Comment_3832568
The chance has nothing to do with an actual player interaction. Literal definition of a random coin toss.
If you lost track of the 4th survivor (and you did because if you didnt, the game is over) you have no way to even estimate where they are, you can only make a complete baseless guess.
"Maybe they're hiding near this gate, or that gate, or maybe they're hiding in that random corner of the map just to waste my time, I have no idea because in the time it took me to kill the 3rd guy and find hatch, they had all the time in the world to cross the entire map back and forth and could literally be anywhere".
That is simply lame.
That's definitely fair about it being rng based. The killer should have an advantage in hatch race since they're faster than survivors and the killer doesn't need to hide or run away if they see the survivor, but you're right that there's a heavily randomized element to it and that it can play out without any interaction. Often I'll find hatch and give it to the survivor if they're brave enough to approach :)
I'm also pretty often running BBQ, so as soon as I hook the third survivor, I'll frequently know where the fourth is. A smart player will hide in a locker while I'm carrying the third to hook. But I find the whole hide-and-seek element to be a lot more fun than chase honestly, even as killer. Chase to me feels like a sort of forgone conclusion determined only by our relative skill in looping. So that hunt during hatch is a lot of fun for me :D
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I definitely feel what OP is saying here. In the last several days, for the first time I really didn't feel like I'd get any enjoyment out of playing survivor since I see tunneling, camping, and/or slugging for 4k in almost all my matches now.
Cap that off with people engaging in abusive behaviors like repeatedly hitting the third survivor on hook to get them to give up and let the killer do a free mori, and I'm not really getting any enjoyment out of survivor matches anymore. I keep going back every couple days hoping for better, but it's been pretty downhill since about the time of the finisher mori update for my games.
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@Gardhome said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3832667#Comment_3832667
Adept, satisfying mori, do not let t-bagger escape. Plus hatch mechanic favours survivors cause its always spawn closer to them and also if survivor is healthy they garanteed find a hatch first cause speed boost from injure do not let killer catch them before that.
I've never heard of the hatch spawning preferentially near the last survivor. Also, the killer's move speed is higher than the survivor's and the killer doesn't have to hide or run away if the survivor shows up. So the killer has an easier time s mm getting to hatch first unless the survivor specifically spent a perk on Left Behind or Clairvoyance or something.
Also there is no circumstance where I'm going to deny my opponent the chance to play the game as intended just so I can get an achievement to show up on my steam profile or to accomplish some other goal of mine.
The only exception I have is for bully squads. If other players are trying to make me not be able to play the game as intended, then they can get what they give. And that's only for whole squads going out of their way to coordinate head on saves, flashbang, flashlight, etc while ignoring gens. If one player wasn't getting into that business with me, they still get fair treatment :)
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@Seraphor said:
what should the killer do? Hook the 3rd survivor and gamble the last person finding trap door
Yes, that's exactly what's intended. That's why the hatch exists. So that the last survivor has a fair but random chance of escaping.
You're not supposed to be able to guarantee a 4th kill simply because you already scored 3. That's not how things are supposed to work.
That's no different to saying: "why doesn't the 4th gen just automatically repair a 5th gen instantly? What am I supposed to do? Just repair a 5th gen if I want to escape?"
If you want your 4K, you need to earn a 4K, you need to find that hatch before the last survivor does, or find the survivor before they find it.
This scenario is already in the killers favour. You have two solutions to the problem (finding the survivor or finding the hatch) and you are faster than them, particularly if you're playing a killer with higher mobility or info.
This is my feeling exactly. Also, as killer, I never slug for 4k, but I find it pretty easy to get the fourth if I want it because as killer I have a huge number of advantages.
Also, that's both accurate and hilarious about the fifth gen repairing itself. Thank you for that :)
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@Shinkiro said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3832590#Comment_3832590
All this and yet you fail to understand that your "experience" is just that, yours, your entire argument hinges on your personal bias which equates to it really meaning nothing at all. Because in that same logic, this "issue" basically doesnt exist at all because this hasn't been my experience except a handful of times. And also just like my experience, i also just hook rather than wait for my mori if survivor 3 isnt going to let go.
You're really grasping at straws to try and use a 100% optional offerring as a basis of anything for an argument on a basekit mechanic.
The basekit mori doesnt need any change, especially not some arbitary not thought out change that will actually make it even worse for you if this is such an "issue".
When a person makes and argument based on personal experience, it still has meaning, it just doesn't mean it's going to lead to something useful. You have an opinion based on your experience as well.
Having said that, I'm not sure this idea of restricting the finisher mori to the endgame collapse is a good idea. It seems like a strange hoop to jump through that would sometimes achieve the intended goal and sometimes not.
I do think that the finisher mori should not be awarded if the third survivor was slugged for a certain amount of time while the fourth survivor was being found. I'd also support the finisher mori only being awarded if a single survivor wasn't repeatedly chased, hooked, and eliminated before others in the early game, and only awarding it if unhooked survivors were not repeatedly chased quickly after their unhook some number of times in a match. Basically, use it to encourage nontoxic playstyles. I've seen a dramatic increase in tunneling, camping, slugging for 4k since the update and I'm really losing interest in playing the game, and I suspect I'm not the only one experiencing this. So BHVR might find it financially beneficial to handle the situation with some tweaks.
I also think the finisher mori should only be awarded once the killer has carried the last survivor to their last hook. The update has taken away the ability of the last survivor to wiggle free (especially with certain perks) and try to escape through hatch or an already open gate. And we've probably all been in situations where we've dropped survivors in the endgame collapse to prevent others from getting out. At that point if the survivor that was dropped was near enough to the gate or hatch that wiggling out could get them an escape, they've earned the chance to go for it. But the finisher mori gives killers a basekit ability to deny survivors that chance.
I also don't especially like moris anyway, but was willing to tolerate them when they were less common. I'd like to see the ability for survivors to just transition to endgame instead of of having to watch the animation now that they happen much more frequently. That wouldn't impact sales if BHVR decides to sell mori animations in the future since killers would still get to see their mori.
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@Toystory3Monkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3832415#Comment_3832415
I dont find current dynamic fun or fair.
The survivor escapes because they're good at ratting & lucky to win 50/50 (ASSUMING there was even a 50/50 to win, bc they couldve got uncounterable gates or just lucky hatch spawn). They didnt best me personally, they simply refused to engage.
It's dragged out, boring and not fun on either side to my experience. Actual chore to participate.
Killers slugging for 4k so often is a dead giveaway people dont feel like current dynamic is fair to them.
I mean, we can always just pretend there arent any issues for anyone. Slugging for 4k still has counterplay (not engaging and hiding for the timer), you can still escape vs it (if you outlast and then engage in default hatch/gates stuff), it has definitive timer to end, so technically there arent any issues for anyone. It's just not fun, just like engaging with the hatch/gates for the killer.
As killer, I enjoy engaging with hatch and gates and find them very fair. And that's not sarcasm... I really think it's good that the last survivor gets a chance when it's just them and me.
I also don't really feel like I have to earn anything as killer. Even against most swfs I see, I don't really feel like it's so hard to get a kill or two. And it's pretty frequent to just dominate matches against the whole survivor team and get a 3k or 4k. So letting the last survivor get a chance to get out can make it fun for both of us instead of just fun for me :)
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@Pelaan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3831711#Comment_3831711
Except they can't nerf it it's the most bare bones of what they wanted theres no possible way to nerf it their only option is to remove it except the Devs are so hard stuck on keeping this finisher Mori system this is gonna be the new norm sadly
It's a big mistake on BHVR's part though. I suspect a decent fraction of people are going to stop playing the game. I used to play some every day, but now with all the tunneling, proxy camping, and slugging for 4k/mori I'm seeing, I've only played one day in the last four and don't even feel like I want to.
Killer can be fun, and I tend to play it about 30% of my time in game, but survivor is more fun for me. If things keep heading in the direction they are, I suspect I'm not the only one who'll have this experience.
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The trap door is pretty smart design as it keeps the last survivor engaged in playing the game and gives them some kind of chance to escape, which can make the endgame fun or even satisfying.
From the killer perspective, it's necessary to remember that the game isn't solely about stopping all gens from getting done. Catching each separate survivor is a separate requirement for getting each kill. From the survivor perspective, the game isn't over for each survivor until the killer gets that specific survivor (or a timer runs out).
If a survivor has been able to loop the killer, do saves, work gens, take protection hits for their teammates all game, there are still cases where the last survivor simply looped better and got ignored by the killer or had better game sense than the other survivors and ended up being last. In those scenarios, what I'm hearing is that OP would like to be given a situation where the killer has an incredible advantage so they can more reliably take down the last survivor.
Also, remember that the game is designed so the killer should be averaging more than two kills per match anyway, and that's without considering friendly killers who lead to an artificially enhanced escape rate, which BHVR then compensates for by decreasing escape chances further. In the current environment, that means that the game is designed in a way that makes it very likely to get down to two survivors left in most matches, at which point slugging for the 4k will almost guarantee a 4k. This is not fun for the survivors involved, and it's practically easy mode for killers.
Since (i) the game isn't over for the last survivor until the killer actually sacrifices them, (ii) it's common for the killer to take down survivors who have a much higher skill level than them, and (iii) the game is designed in a way that intentionally gives killers an advantage, it's pretty reasonable to give the last survivor a chance at hatch. That last survivor player would also like to enjoy the game, and the current hatch design is a way to ensure they have something fun to do until the end of the match.
Viva la trap door!
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@Scooter08 said:
What are your thoughts on the Pig? Let me know
Pig is pretty solid as is. Need a fifth option to say "Pig is fun, do not change."
But I'm also a Pig main. If she gets buffed, I'm probably going to have it too easy in a lot of matches. But nerfing her is a bad idea; she's weak against strong loopers who know to run away from loops when they hear the roar. I guess a very small buff to her anti-loop tool is probably the only thing I'd think is warranted.
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@Toystory3Monkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3832344#Comment_3832344
just die i suppose, though knowing how biased such suggestions are, i would imagine they would say the last survivor is now allowed to interact with gates.
imagine losing half of your kills because first survivors get rng roll on the hatch and the other wins 50/50 at gates that spawned with half of the map in between them.
peak backwards solution.
Yeah, this is what I thought too. I don't support slugging for 4k, but imagine one going through hatch and the other getting out the gate. All without the killer even spotting them sometimes. I feel like that could be some pretty unengaging gameplay.
Alternatively, imagine the plight of the last survivor if the gates aren't powered at that point... Why even bother? Both scenarios aren't great :(
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This might actually be interesting in the sense that it could put the last two survivors against each other, which might play into some game the entity wants to see. I'm not sure whether I think it's good idea or not, but it's definitely interesting :)
From a gameplay perspective, I'd think this wouldn't be so fun for whoever doesn't get hatch; what would they end up doing?
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@ErebusSurge said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3832197#Comment_3832197
dude the topic of the thread is tunneling and slugging should be punishable.
Also all numbers are accurate.
And yes killers are fragile and full of ego.
the simulator has made 4k so easy killers believe they are really good. Most killers are mediocre at best (myself included) but still get 4ks with ease because the game hands it to them.Oh look that survivor escaped, here’s a speed boost and an aura reveal so you don’t lose!! Hardly a challenge. It’s creates a false sense of ability thats not in the game.
2 of the first ten comments mention gen rushing (which again killers who defend slugging often are anti gen rush because it ruins their game)
Do keep up hun
At first I thought you said "2 of the first 10 commandments mention gen rushing."
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@PunchPeople said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3832115#Comment_3832115
It's skill issue, nothing more, nothing less. And if there are 2 survivors remaining with noone willing to chase or repairing a generator, accept that the game is over.
Also, they did add unbreakable basekit in a PTB. Nobody, not even survivor mains, approved of this. Just bring an anti-slug perk.
As I mentioned, maybe it would be useful to provide some reasoning behind your thoughts. The game is only over at that point for any survivor that's already out of the game. For anyone left, the game is not over. Having hatch provides some incentive for the last survivor(s) to keep playing. If they don't have that, then it would be a pretty miserable endgame every time since there's so little chance of an escape.
The reason it's not a skill issue is that the killer is almost always dramatically more advantaged in the slug for 4k situation, whereas hatch gives a fair chance. If hatch is removed as a possibility, the game would likely be so unfavorable for the remaining survivors that people might not even want to play the endgame, which is effectively what's being forced into survivors in a slug for 4k scenario.
And yes, it is bad manners to abuse mechanics to force people to waste their time in nearly impossible situations in any game. It's still allowed by the rules, but it makes the experience worse for the people experiencing it. I couldn't imagine playing like that for a game played in person with other people. So it's really not a skill issue, it's actually bm.
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@PunchPeople said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/431063/when-are-we-going-to-address-slugging
When you start using Unbreakable or Boon: Exponential. No Mither for extra spice.
You got the tools. Use them. Or don't and complain here. Your choice.
Maybe you can provide some constructive feedback by saying why there shouldn't be some added measure to prevent things like slugging for 4k :)
OP is speaking more broadly, but I think just saying "bring a perk for it" doesn't really address the issue. I think players shouldn't be forced into situations where hatch is bypassed just because the killer feels entitled to a 4k, especially when hatch is designed to make the game still engaging for the last survivor.
Of course, full team slugging by high mobility killers is also a discussion that needs to be had. But I personally see that much less than slugging for 4k.
I do think OP is right that this kind of behavior has gotten worse since the update. I decided to play a few survivor matches for the first time in a few days today. First match, the killer was hard tunneling, second two matches, proxy camping. Those are different than the slugging being discussed here, but this sort of bm behavior has seriously increased recently.
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@ErebusSurge said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3832061#Comment_3832061
the problem with the hatch now, which further supports the killer sided argument is, A) you have to wait 10 seconds to appear, B) it will always spawn where the killer is C) moris lower your chance at it
I agree that hatch race is definitely killer sided somewhat, which I think is fine. Killer has higher movement speed and doesn't need to hide when they see a survivor. So they're much more likely to get to hatch first. You and I probably also agree that having hatch in the game gives the last survivors a reason to keep playing :)
Evidently, people slugging for the 4k want to get that next kill so much that they don't want to deal with a situation where they'll have an advantage. Instead, they're willing to take away any realistic chance of the last survivor standing escaping and force the other to just sit on the ground a while and wait while they do it.
I really don't understand why people are willing to do that to other players in most cases. I guess I can see it if the killer's up against a bully squad.
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@Emeal said:
This idea seems good on paper until you have Ace running towards your gen, blasting repeated slurs.
With all due respect for our fine community, certain members cant be trusted with such ability and repeated arguments about this suggestion has in the past still suggested to me that discord provides better alternative. So does that mean that because some people cant drive safely the rest of us have to be restricted to federal speed limits? Yes its the probably where this idea has ended.
Agreed. I've seen such awful speech in the endgame chat that some things people said probably bordered on being illegal (which I felt I had to report). I can't imagine what some people would say on comms during a rough match.
The idea sounds great until the whole spectrum of players has access to it :(
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@Orvarihusklumpen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3831685#Comment_3831685
I blame hatch and challenges requiring a 4k
Do you mean that because hatch exists alongside challenges requiring a 4k, that players are slugging for 4k in order to ensure they complete their challenges? If so, I'd say that's definitely a contributing factor to the number of slug for 4k instances. But that already existed before the update; I think it wouldn't likely contribute much to the increased incidence of these behaviors a lot of people are talking about since the finisher mori update.
But I think that OP is right that various bm playstyles have gotten significantly worse since the finisher mori was released. I've also definitely seen bm directly centered around getting the free mori. Personally, I've even already had situations where the killer hit me repeatedly on hook because they had the slug down near me and wanted me to let them do the finisher mori. It's really just adding bm to the game for the sake of some annoying animation.
It's gotten so bad for me that I've actually not even played the game in the last couple days because I don't feel like dealing with the increased chance of tunneling, proxy camping, and slugging for 4k I've seen lately. Every time I think of playing it, I just get this feeling like it's going to be a bad experience, and instead just go watch some videos.
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@Shinkiro said:
Doesn't matter what type of slugging they are referring too. The answers are Unbreakable, Boon: Exponential, Plot twist or getting someone else to pick you up. There's nothing being "exploited", if you want to use that argument against legitimate game mechanics then there's a long, long loooooong list of gameplay that falls into that category using that logic.
Someone doesnt want to be slugged? Bring anti-slug and counterplay it rather than demanding the devs solve it for you.
The stats destroy any and all arguments about all the moaning about slugging in any significant way, its all just bias, and the mori hasn't changed anything at all, it's just yet another angle to try and get more basekit buffs for survivors.
It definitely matters what someone is referring to when they say something :)
Slugging for 4k is used to prevent players from having a chance to escape at the endgame when they're supposed to have that opportunity based on the game design. It's pretty rude to do that kind of thing as it bypasses fundamental game mechanics that other players are intended to have.
I'll stick with the basketball analogies here since I play a lot of it. Some things could appear like an exploit but are actually an expression of skill. Fade away jumpers fall into that category, and so do things like zoning as killer.
Some things though, are simply done to prevent the opposing player from playing the game. The example of bouncing a ball off the opponent's knee during check, and intentional fouls fall into this category because they take away the opponent's ability to play the game as intended. Slugging for 4k falls into this category because it denies the opponent any real chance at playing the endgame for hatch as intended. These things are bad sportsmanship and have no place in games outside of professional sports (or esports).
I'd say that if people want to do those things regularly, they don't care much about the experience of other players and a single player game is better for that approach.
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@SuspiciousBrownie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3831474#Comment_3831474
That’s definitely factual. But one is a much more significant than the other. They could easily make a basekit perk that blocks the gate if you crouch at it twice tho. Simple fix.
That's a good idea! Like you get an entity block on your exit if you crouch some number of times, and the block duration increases with number of crouches. Then if you do it twice to thank the killer, no problem, but if you crouch repeatedly, you better hope the killer's memeing with you.
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@SuspiciousBrownie said:
It’s like 10 seconds at most, it’s fine. The amount of times I have to walk across the map and push out tbagging survivors when I’m not playing my main is insane. They waste far more time and are toxic while doing it.
Fix that first and then we can talk about skipping Moris.
Functionally speaking, it should be relatively trivial to enable skipping moris. "Fixing teabagging at the gates" is nearly impossible since there are valid reasons for survivors to remain at the gate which are not hostile to the killer.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3831437#Comment_3831437
The Mori does not take 15 seconds.
Also Survivors can hide forcing the Killer to wait the entire endgame duration too.https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3831440#Comment_3831440
If we really cared about wasting other players' time, which is what OP is describing as a problem.
We don't even need to compare as it should be obvious that Killers have had their time wasted most.But this does not impact killers. We can have a separate thread if there are suggestions for things that improve the killer experience.
As far as killers go, I almost never experience time wasting by survivors outside of looping when they need to waste my time. Teabagging at the gate is extremely rare for me unless I see a bully squad and get tunnelly/campy/sluggy with them... I mean, get what you give and so on with those teams… And honestly, they usually get 4ked, so I almost never see teabagging at the gate anymore.
But that's a digression. OP hasn't clarified their meaning explicitly. All that's stated in the original post is that as a survivor it gets old seeing moris. I personally don't want to watch them and would strongly support this.
All the coding that should be needed is to add an interface button, and write an 'if' before calling the mori activation function that conditionally calls the endgame transition for the survivor and replaces with a bot if needed for the animation. Very easy to handle in comparison to solving issues like tunnelling, camping, teabagging, etc., which all can be mistaken for legitimate behaviors or even be called for in some situations.
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I'm not a survivor main or killer main, but in case BHVR reads any of this, I thought it might be worthwhile to note my take on it: I forgot daily rituals existed at all.
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@Emeal said:
1 of 4 Survivor is forced to watch 5 second longer game ending animation in a 4K game: "I hate it, change it!"
Killers who have watched hours of Survivors t-bag at the Exit Gates: "Wow, that must really be tough for you huh?"
My point is, You will be fine and if we really cared we would have done more for Killers earlier.
How do you mean 'If we really cared we would have done more for Killers earlier?'
This isn't a post saying anything that would affect the killer's experience.
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@MrMori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3831289#Comment_3831289
That's not true. If they're slugged underneath a pallet next to gate, you could just bleed them out for 4 minutes and you'd get a kill. As for crawling toward gate, you can't mori until the second to last person has been fully sacrificed on hook, by the time that happens you can usually crawl out or wiggle off anyway. I don't think the finisher mori makes much of a difference at all here. If you were high wiggle and the other survivor is being sacrificed, you'll wiggle out or crawl out. If you were low wiggle, you'd get hooked anyway. Finisher mori is totally fine imo and in fact it saves lots of time that would be spend being picked up and carried to hook.
This isn't true. If the last survivor is slugged near an open gate, you can't bleed them out. We've all been in these situations occasionally, and this update denies survivors the chance to escape in that scenario. It takes the fun out of those endgame scenarios :(
Also, the mori animations takes time, so it doesn't save much time compared with carrying to a hook.