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@Vishlumbra said:
All these complains are to satisfy the ego of survivors to make sure they can escape even if they lost the game. If you don’t slug the third survivor, 90% of the time the other one gets to the hatch before you.
Outcome 1, you can risk hooking, and you end up getting to the hatch before the survivor, so if you want to 4K you have to camp the hatch. Then the survivor hides for 35 mins so he can tbag you at the door he opened because you closed the hatch.
outcome 2, you don’t slug the third one, you hook him and the final survivor gets to the hatch before you.Outcome 3, he hides and waits for you to close the hatch because he has key.
Outcome 4, you hook, close the hatch and have a 50% chance of finding him on door.
Outcome 5, you slug the third to find the final one and the third has unbreakable or not.The end game is fine as it is and is highly inclined to a survivor surviving.
If you hook the third survivor, you should be winning hatch race most of the time. In the last week, I had one survivor get hatch on me, and she took the hit that would have downed her while she jumped in. Admittedly, sometimes I do choose to give hatch or the door. But if the survivor is getting hatch 90% of the time, you need to be doing your hatch races differently.
Run slightly inside the tiles around the edge of the map and listen for the hatch. Remember typical hatch spawn locations and go for those when the pathing makes sense for it. Consider blocking possible pathways for the survivor to get hatch. Always be on the lookout for movement or scratch marks. Hatch race is extremely killer sided.
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@TheRivulet said:
Even if you didn't have Mori, if you don't manage to kill them by hook that's a legitimate skill issue
This isn't always true. Sometimes you have scenarios where you have to drop a survivor at endgame to get their teammates. If they already have wiggle progress, they can get out and get to an open gate or hatch, and if they're close enough, there's not much the killer can do about it.
And sometimes the survivor has brought perks that make this scenario more likely. The finisher gives the ability to deny them that. It gives killers a basekit ability to deny the benefit of various perks brought by survivors.
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@TheRivulet said:
It's the exact same as hooking the survivor
It's not the same as hooking the last survivor since it bypasses any ability of the last survivor to wiggle free and go for hatch or an already open gate.
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3839565#Comment_3839565
I've even seen a few survivors try to run out of the gate with an active trap… 🤯
Didn’t that get patched?
I saw a survivor's head pop in the exit gate a few days ago. But maybe they patched it in the last few days?
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@Langweilig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3839023#Comment_3839023
Sadly, when I play pig, I never see it happen.
It's uncommon. But I'm a Pig main, so I've seen some strange things. I've even seen a few survivors try to run out of the gate with an active trap… 🤯
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@IronKnight55 said:
I couldn't wait for 2v8 to end; I didn't even finish the tome or collect the rewards because I disliked the mode so much. If it became a permanent feature and significantly affected the 1v4 queue times, I would seriously consider quitting the game and never playing it again.
I agree with the sentiment. I strongly dislike 2v8 and only played it the first time around so I could farm medkits for a bit.
I really liked Lights Out, which I guess is uncommon. For me: Lights Out > Normal Mode > Chaos Shuffle > 2v8.
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@Langweilig said:
I want pigs head pop timer reduced basekit. 150 seconds is too long. It should be 130s basekit and I want a physical key back, but the forth box guarantees the key.
Sometimes I accidentally force a head pop because I see a survivor via BBQ and don't realize it's someone with a hat on. When I find them, I'll slug them for pressure and avoid hooking so they don't feel too oppressed.
But if they're pushed off their box and they're unlucky enough that the right box is the last one, sometimes you get accidental head pops.
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@Jtflorencio said:
I already talked about this in a post… What makes it better? I don't play with her much
Artist is pretty good. She can legitimately put pressure from anywhere on a lot of maps. And used right, she's pretty good at anti-loop.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3838112#Comment_3838112
Not true at all. See for example https://x.com/momoseventh/status/1769285428350513644?s=46&t=bEndA0OIWKAA1vXbqE9DCw
If you are insanely good (which means you have insane "not normal" skill), you will win literally hundreds or more games in a row (there are multitudes of killer mains going for very long kill streaks) in public games. The game is indeed killer sided and if nobody makes any mistakes, survivors are guaranteed to loose. Provided you play strong killer of course.
But even if you play "bad" killer, you will still win most games in pubs even without camping/tunneling/slugging/using abilities. It's just hard, but it's still all on you as a killer and on your knowledge - see
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaR-9_Vjp3s
And note that it's not just Hens and it's not just those 10 games (watch the very end for details).
This brings up a good point. I've watched some streamers just stomp group after group. DwichaelJackson comes to mind, but I've also watched someone play Nurse and just get 4k after 4k nonstop.
Having said that, even a lot of talented streamers will admit that they're not playing at comp level, even some that have done comp on the past. Anyway, I don't think I'm at top MMR, so I'll let others debate those things :)
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I'd be Martin Brody, and ideally I would use my last bullet to explode a scuba tank in the shark's mouth.
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Agreed. And unlike with Dracula and some other killers, they could really lean into the horror aspect of Mothman.
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
You're never too old to play games, adult animals also still play. It's normal to want to play sometimes.
You did nothing wrong, this dude is just an ageist a-hole, and probably Gen Z or Gen Alpha - an ACTUAL KID - if they think 30 is old. I'm personally 33 and I have zero kids, also you're not really "old" IMHO until you hit like 50 years old. In any case that doesn't mean games aren't for anyone over 50, gaming is for everyone. There's actually evidence that videogaming can help preserve reflexes and prevent cognitive decline in older people, because it keeps you always engaging your hands and your brain. Ignore this person or report to BHVR and move on.
Agreed. I have a relative who's retired and likes online gaming. She's awesome!
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@Xxjwaynexx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3837276#Comment_3837276
He's no kin to queen nurse, he's more like the loser she fell in love with because of his inadequacies. I mean spirit would be more of a sister with blight being a long lost step brother but wraith ain't in that power family my guy lol
That's why Wraith is the little brother. He can't stick up for himself, so sometimes Nurse has to come help him out :)
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3837370#Comment_3837370
Not since the dawn. The game was at its most broken for survivors back then, yes. But it's this... religion... of survivors never being wrong, and their demands for how they want killers to play never being too extreme/unreasonable, which has captured this game's community since like 2019, that killer players are oppressed by. It has only grown in strength since the "feelings over everything" and fake wholesome, group cyber bullies of the modern day have joined in. They want killers to play with skill, but when do that and they use strategies to win (tunneling, slugging), the survivors say they have no skill. They demand that killers play easy for them, and then shame them, win or lose, whether they play by that rulebook or not.
And the worst part is that they have a monopoly on power, not just in gameplay but in future balance decisions. There are design decisions that the devs could make that, from the pov of killers would be fair and balanced changes, which survivor mains would call "beyond killer sided" and "game ruining." But lesser changes have been made, very curtailed in the name of compromise, and they still called them those things. The biggest admittance of this culture's existence is when the devs talked about killers snowballing recently, in their 2v8 return stream, that they don't think a killer who's playing well should be able to do it, as if survivors aren't able to snowball as well. They'll be putting in a gen speed boost for survivors after someone gets hooked, which is literally, objectively punishing the killer for doing their job. That, combined with MMR forcing 2 bad survivors and 2 good ones against a killer, and hoping the game is broken enough to still give the survivors a win, clearly shows how the devs and the biased survivors want an orchestrated match result. A 50/50 no matter what.
I haven't seen anyone suggesting that someone playing killer should 'take it easy' on survivors. Most people posting about wanting killers to not tunnel just really want to play the game. It's similar to the reason why some people complain about bully squads. And honestly, I wouldn't call tunneling a 'strategy'. In most cases it seems like more of a willingness to do desperate things to win.
You're probably are pretty good at killer, so you get to play against survivors that waste so much of your time and run gens so fast that it's hard to win. But that doesn't mean tunneling is fun for your target unless their favorite thing in the game is to be chased. But at lower skill levels, the game becomes massively killer sided, and tunneling tends to wreck the match for the targeted survivor and their team. That can lead to people not wanting to keep playing the game and DBD losing support.
I'm not sure there's a good solution, but BHVR unfortunately needs to balance the game in a way that works for all skill levels so that people want to play. And that goes for the killer role too. I played 8 or so games as killer yesterday, and it wouldn't likely feel great if there were no way to do well. But I think the balance that BHVR needs to target should have the goal of making the game fun for everyone, and suppressing playstyles that make the game feel awful when they're used on a player. Personally, as killer, I don't think it's fun to tunnel someone out. We've probably all done it, but it's not something I think should be encouraged. And I'd feel bad doing it if the survivor being tunneled didn't even try to taunt me and just wanted to play the game, especially if there was a large skill mismatch.
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Vommy Mommy's Cupcakes
Also, I think Bubba might work at Bonnie's Bakery.
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@Dreamnomad said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3837510#Comment_3837510
Same. I hate survivors that quit, especially at the start of the match. So I absolutely will charge in recklessly to unhook before they get the chance if I can. If you don't want to play the game then don't even start a match. I hope the killer bleeds you out for 4 minutes. Quit ruining the game for everyone else just because you didn't get everything you wanted.
I've had matches where I unhooked someone before they can get to second stage after two self-unhook attempts and then we get them out :/
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I would pay to see Elminster and his hat vault windows.
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Sweaters are the best! These days I put Bill in his sweater and a masquerade mask.
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His addon that lets you see gens by total repair state is pretty solid, but I don't think Wraith is op. He's like a little brother to Nurse :)
I guess one of the bigger challenges with Wraith is the way I have to strain my eyes, not blinking to see him coming :(
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@Vishlumbra said:
Easy kill? Ok so, you have 2 survivors remaining, let’s say 1 gen left and is kinda a 3 gen set up. Both guys on dead hook. I find one and I slug him to find the other one and secure a 4K. That survivor I’m looking has options you know?
If I’m camping the slugged one, the other one can finish gen and pressure me into leaving the guy on the ground, he could hide and maybe could get him up. (Maybe the downed survivor has unbreakable?)
I can risk hooking and basically secure a 3k but risk loosing a 4K, since he has time to look for hatch while I am hooking.
He could hide and bleed out his buddy so he secures hatch.
He can hide and wait for the guy to be hooked or die, he has key so he positions himself to open hatch after I close it.
I get to hatch, I camp it so he has to ask for it. He hates me so he finishes last gen and aims to stealth to one of the two doors.I get to hatch, I camp it and he hides till I’m tired of waiting, he is not repairing gen so he waits till I close it and has a 50% chance of escaping through the door. (I get this 90% of the time, I had people waiting 30 mins without progressing gens so I am forced to close the hatch or wait the full hour)
You give up.You try to rescue your slugged friend.
Idk what’s the protocol?
The survivor should usually not be able to finish the last gen in that scenario. If they've done a good job, they could have avoided a three gen, which could make it a little easier. But part of that situation should to involve partly patrolling gens. If you know where the slug appoximately is, it's not a bad idea to check gens, then go look for your slug. Odds are strong that the last survivor is being a bit careful about going for their teammate, and when you finish gen patrol, you might find them heading to or even healing the slug.
They could also just be hiding for hatch, but if they do that, the killer has only themselves to blame for making that boring hunt happen. And even then, the killer is more likely to win hatch race than the survivor since the killer has higher move speed and doesn't have to hide or run if the survivor shows up. A slug for 4k is usually going to result in a 4k. It's an easy kill.
Also, that's a very contrived situation. Most slug for 4k scenarios don't involve a close call like that. They're more often the result of a person playing killer who wants an easy fourth kill.
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@Vishlumbra said:
“I was slugged when I already lost the game, the killer aspired for the best result so I’m offended that he didn’t gamble giving me hatch.”
Everyone here. Yawn.
That's not really a good interpretation of the hatch mechanic. It ignores the entire purpose of hatch and the impact that both hatch and the workaround to get an easy kill in spite of hatch do.
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@satx3241 said:
I pretty much only play survivor. In those rare instances I get paired with 3 other survivors that are at least decent at the game and trying to escape there is an extremely high chance at least 2, if not all 4, are going to escape. The problem is it only takes 1 survivor that either a) sucks at the game, b) is not playing to escape, or c) only playing to intentionally sabotage the other survivors for the chances of even 1 person escaping to be practically zero.
I don't know if there is any way to create any balance with that. Good teams of survivors, whether solo or SWF are a formidable foe for the majority of killers. The biggest issue on the solo survivor side is that you get paired with at least one of the survivors mentioned above in nearly every match.
I hate that it's that way. Even as a survivor main that plays more solo queue than anything else I still say the biggest issue with playing survivor in this game isn't that killers are too strong. It's that there are way way too many survivors that either suck or who don't play with the objective to escape.But I have to carry some kind of glyph into the basement ;)
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@Vishlumbra said:
Those tactics are 99.9% of every competitive game, maybe that’s why it has never been that successful in a viewer / audience way.
I am saying that just asking for nerfs to such tactics, without visiting the core design of the game, would destroy the killer experience, because there’s plenty of possibilities to win as it is for survivors. Killers are not created equal and you can’t expect everyone to always have the best possible experience while playing, if you die fast people will cry about it, if they wrecked the killer, they will say to fix the MMR or that it was boring as hell etc.
I am saying that if we are suggesting eliminating current meta tactics for killers, we have to talk about creating a healthy balance and visit killers powers and current state of hooks, generators etc.
I agree with a lot of this actually :)
Having said that, I think player experience is the most important thing by far. Even more than balance, if people can have fun both winning and losing, that's what makes the game good.
There might even need to be MMR dependent balancing. The game is very killer sided at low MMR, balances out in mid MMR ranges, and becomes somewhat survivor sided at higher MMR.
Taking away tunneling and then buffing killers much could make the game unbearable for new players and DBD would eventually fade off into the fog because not enough new players join. But in principle, nerfing tunneling, camping, etc. and giving some small killer buffs in exchange should balance out by shifting killers not using those tactics to higher MMR.
Maybe the lowest MMR can have a 'kiddy pool' set of mechanics where killers are slightly weaker, and everyone else sees a nerf to tunneling, camping, and slugging for 4k along with a small increase in killer stats? I have a feeling my idea would go wrong still since matchmaking prioritizes speed in addition to MMR, but I'm just thinking 'out loud'.
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@Laluzi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3835982#Comment_3835982
It's still unfortunately a bit tonedeaf, no matter what your intentions were. Saying GG to someone who's clearly frustrated and getting their ass kicked is rubbing salt in the wound, as they did not have a good game, and many people will do this intentionally to rub it in. The Ghostface was unable to determine your intentions and wasn't in a good enough state of mind to interpret it charitably; since they already felt attacked that game, it's not surprising they read your GG as mocking.
If you want to reach out to someone in that situation, wish them a better next game.
I wonder if something better in that situation would be something along the lines of:
"I really appreciate you playing fair, not tunneling and stuff! :)"
I know that regardless of the outcome of my survivor matches, the match can be fun as long as the killer doesn't do things that ruin the game for people. And I appreciate it when my survivors say they enjoyed matches with me!
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@Vishlumbra said:
I mention comp because it would be the standard on how to play the game to win. Therefore giving an insight on what is needed to do so considering the current state of the game.
Forget about comp, imagine a regular match with good decent players. After the first chase, 2 or 3 of the objectives the killer needs to protect are gone, it doesn’t matter what he does. Again we are assuming survivors that are not messing around or clowning, they spawn and go into a gen, which is in most cases what happens. The player that went into chase is capable of dropping pallets, he is not a god of looping, just a normal player that is running windows of opportunity (most used perk in the game).
Currently, for killers to win (unless they have incredibly strong abilities like nurse and the knowledge to actually use those abilities correctly) you depend on survivor choices to aim for the win. If people neglect the person on hook, they will finish the gens sacrificing 1 but winning the match.
There is a reason why slow down perks are needed in most if not all killers and even with those, if you are playing a not so strong killer, you have to sacrifice fun perks or even a variety of perks to have a fighting chance. By design something is off.
And for the 100th time, I don’t want buffs to either side, I want people to understand that the reason these strategies they consider toxic exist, is because of their own choices during games, not because one side is incredibly stronger than the other.
Here you said exactly the main point. 'By design, something is off.'
Nobody is doing anything that justifies tunneling someone, with the exception of people taunting the killer. Tunneling is not fun for the targeted person in any way and prevents them from playing the game except to just be chased. That 'strategy' makes the experience bad for most players who get tunneled. If tunneling is actually needed to win matches, the game is designed in a way that encourages players to treat other players poorly.
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@Vishlumbra said:
I really dont see why my post has becomed a battle against comp, or killers or trying to protect survivors. I am advocating for leaving the game as it is without implementing more nerfs.
It really makes no sense the arguments you are all giving, mainly because you claim is a matter of MMR and that the game is balanced and not survivor biased because of how some people chose to play. If anyone with higher skill claims or proves something and you all assume he is always wrong and that shouldnt apply to the "real" game, how come EVERY SINGLE TIER LIST OF KILLERS ranks nurse, blight and hillbilly top spot. Have you faced a normal nurse? They are terrible. Same could be said of a bad billy or blight, yet those lists are based on a good skill and performance from above avarage players, how come when it comes to the macro game, that goes out of the window and you all just try to demerit every argument I give. Good survivors are the top tier, not killers. I want survivors nerfed? NO. I want killers BUFFED? NO (At least on a macro level, a few of them could use some buffs, namely Freddy, Onryo, Trapper etc).
I am not fighting against anyone, I am not the one that makes dozens of posts every single day crying about slugging or camping or tunneling, I am trying to make people understand that those are needed strategies. Dont you think there are toxic survivor strategies? Mainly is a fault at design but have you ever faced an unhookable group of survivors, with map offering camping a gen at a top floor? Making hooks invisible, boil over, no mitter etc? If you dont slug they would win 100%. What we doing about those? Should we nerf those perks because it feels bad for the killer? No. It is fine.
I think what we all should be asking for is update for certain killers that are outdated and weak. Asking for real updates to killer powers instead of moving a few numbers (Cough Ghostface), more fun elements to survivor gameplay, new posibilities or maps, good new content, not just judging every single killer as the same and claiming they HAVE to stop the slugging and tunneling. If those were to dissapear, they would have to actually invest a lot of time balancing killers to have better chances of winning.
Btw stats say that with good perks, survivors have a high 35%-40% chance of surviving, in order to tie a game, you have to beat those odds twice. If you aspire to win as killer three times. Can’t really base everything on killers win 60% survivors 40%.
Most players are casual, not top tier. Casual players will generally have their gaming experience ruined by things like tunneling, camping, full team slugging, and slugging for 4k. Survivors at that level have only one toxic strategy, and they know it will get them tunneled if the killer isn't very good or just gets angry: they can teabag during chase.
The fact that very top tier survivors make the game hard for very top tier killers isn't a justification for leaving in things that will make most other people regret playing their matches. This is a game design issue for both casual and high level play.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3836266#Comment_3836266
In those games, where survivors are trying to win, they had to implement a rule where camping is allowed, otherwise the killer would never win.When people say this I feel like they don't actually realize what is happening in comp.
The killer never wins in comp. The survivors never win in comp. All killers could be perkless M1 Freddy and comp would still be balanced because both sides get a turn as killer. The game is decided by comparing the two matches. A team wins the match, not the killer or survivor.
Comp rules are designed to play the game that the comp players consider the most skillful (taking out a lot of the RNG elements).
Not to mention they aren't even playing for kills, they are playing for hooks. An 8 hook game with no kills is a better result than two kills via six hooks.
Somebody mentioned competitve where killers tend to win more and thats not the case, the most common result is a drawIf you have a stat for that I'd love to see it. Even with the different win conditions, I don't think a 2k is the most common result.
I think that most killers mains would agree that a lot of times facing a group of good survivors is not even fun, is just stressful.I do try to resist labeling people who prefer the killer role, but statements like this make it seem like killer mains just want the easy win.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3836296#Comment_3836296
When you have the best Killer players in the planet HAVING to use such strategies to win, that might tell you something about the state of the game. (Which imo, is fine as it is).But this is against the best survivors on the planet. We've seen what happens when comp killers (or even non-comp killers) employ these strategies in high MMR pubs (massive win streaks).
As others have mentioned, high MMR is not the same as comp. Even as a high MMR killer you might never face a comp squad as they tend to practice amongst themselves. Hitting a 4 man SWF that is not only in nonstop communication about the game but also has selected themselves based not on social arrangements but for their skill at the game is incredibly rare.
On top of that, you're ignoring the advantages survivors have in comp, namely that they know the killer they are going to face.
Agreed.
The game is mostly played by casual players, not by people who make money doing it. Tunneling, camping, and getting slugged for 4k can make the a person playing survivor wonder why they even play the match.
The game should be enjoyable for the survivor and killer players, even if they lose the match, and the existence of 'strategies' that can make the game feel not worth playing suggests we need tweaks to the game design.
Also agree that too many people talk about how survivors or killers are asking for something. I wonder how much of the player base actually plays just one role 90% of the time or more?
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@hermitkermit said:
You are entitled to your opinion, as is everyone. Survivors are the weaker role, not stronger. Every kind of evidence supports this. That being said, it is not a bad thing. With this asymmetrical style of game and the horror elements within it, along with needing incentive to play the Killer role over since it doesn't have a kill with friends option, the game should be leaned more towards killers, which it currently is. The problem is that if you want people to be okay with losing more often than they win, they need to be having fun while doing it. While fun is subjective, the opinions expresed by the majoirty can help give an insight into what the best course of action is. Like when majoity agreed that old MFT was too strong. Or how the majoirty agreed that old DS was too strong. Just like how majority of survivors have usually and still currently voice concerns over tunneling, camping, and slugging. These strategies are effective because they exploit specific weaknesses in survivor mechanics, which are frustrating precisely because survivors often lack reliable ways to counter them. There are perks that can help, but none are currently strong enough to deterr these tactics from being common (hence why more mechanics and perks trying to deterr these tactics are being implemented), and being forced to equip something to counter something base-kit for the other "side" can be frustrating and feel both limiting and unfair.
I think survivors losing more often is a good thing, because killers should be stronger. But it's how survivors lose that can be improved. It's okay to want improvements. Killers not long ago also wanted improvements because they were struggling and not having fun with the game, they weren't enjoying their role and their concerns were thankfully listened to and the game was heavily adjusted and is now in their favor, which is a good thing. It's good that they can enjoy the role gain. And in the same way, it's okay for survivors to also want improvements too.
Well said. This is why Dwight is the leader.
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@TimelessData said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834886#Comment_3834886
tunnelling and sweating is also high skill as survivors have so much to counter that so I don’t know what ur saying tbh. If I want to tunnel at 5 gens I can there’s no rule behind it and the most effective way of getting 4 mans is tunneling Litt most high level killers say this.
I'd agree with upside on this. 'Sweating' is fine, but if you have to tunnel and camp to do well, you're in an MMR that's too high for your skill level. It's the same with lower skill survivors who constantly hide and don't develop their skill in chase.
Don't get me wrong, my feeling is that most killers available aren't fit for top level DBD matches.
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Surviving is toxic.
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@イエローミント said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834698#Comment_3834698
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834706#Comment_3834706
Thanks for your thoughts! 😊
Personally, I don’t see tunneling, camping (or even fast gens and slugging) as actions that go against sportsmanship. I often hear arguments that these tactics are unsportsmanlike, but to me, it just sounds like using “sportsmanship” as a shield to ask the other side to go easy. I also don’t see an issue with these tactics leading to an increase in internal MMR—can you really call a rank earned by holding back a true reflection of skill?
To me, unsportsmanlike behavior would be things like trash-talking with an "ez" after the match or taunting a slugged survivor with inappropriate gestures.
Although I know you and I have a different picture of sportsmanship, I'd still say people aren't using the sportsmanship argument to get others to go easy on them. Tunneling and camping are like hunting a defenseless animal as it's being released from a cage. If you're able to tunnel someone out quickly, that's not even an expression of skill, it's like bullying someone with no power to stop you.
And for most people, you're ruining their game when you tunnel them. They get no chance to participate in the game as normal because you decided it was alright to immediately kick them out of the match. Any time someone participates in an activity with other people, they need to consider the experience of the other people they're interacting with. The game is meant to be fun for everyone involved, and tunneling, camping, and slugging for 4k make the game awful for the targeted survivor.
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I would definitely crouch next to this expecting a heal...
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How would people here take a 'glnm!' in that situation?
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834373#Comment_3834373
We're not saying they're making things up. They're complaining about stuff that they either can't change, or could change with more experience, which they refuse to wait for. The mori 'reward' is a pretty animation which will soon fall out of style to prioritize, except among the newest players, who btw are probably the same group complaining about this issue. I'd like to see the devs fix the game, because the miserable survivor matches come more from bad, forced matchups, rather than killer being OP. It's as the original poster said. If survivors could learn in-game how to play, and similarly skilled/hour'd players got put against each other, it would reveal and fix a whole lot.
There's definitely some element of mismatched skill levels sometimes, which is partly because the matchmaking system prioritizes both player skill and wait time for matches. You're definitely right about that.
I do wonder how we explain so many people seeing an increasingly bad experience in their games recently? I know there are a lot of people on these forums who heavily prioritize 'complete wins' when playing as killer, which leads to pushing for 4k. Providing a sort of 'nice wrap up' for their matches seems likely to be a potentially underestimated incentive to push harder for a 'perfect match.' Basically, it could make it appear for some players that getting a perfect match by any means should be their goal. I also wouldn't be surprised if some people see the mori capping off some matches where they do well and feel like if they do that, they've done a better job and get a dopamine release from the result. And that dopamine release can lead to an unexpected increase in satisfaction from matches that end that way.
And while that wouldn't be a problem on its own, quite a few people I've interacted with here, on Reddit, and in endgame chats have the opinion that they should use all means available to get a perfect match, including tunneling, camping, and slugging for 4k. Anyone seeing the finisher mori as a 'tidy' way to wrap up their match may be inclined to push a bit more for matches that lead to this new 'perfect match ending'. I wouldn't really be surprised if this happens, at least to some extent. Given the large number of people I've seen expressing that they're not responsible for other people's fun, and that they should use those playstyles, it seems likely that there's a sizeable number of people who will tunnel, proxy camp, and slug for 4k more in order to get their perfect match ending, and that others might see the new perfect match ending and be somewhat unconsciously incentivised to do those things too.
Anyway, that's not to say I'm right or you're wrong, but I definitely think it's good to monitor players' experiences over time and to see a variety of opinions on things that affect those experiences, yours and mine included :)
And sorry for putting so many things in quotes; I did it here because those things are all subjective concepts.
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@Potato_Survivor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834276#Comment_3834276
I say it here as well i have more respect for players who bring something to the table a change or a way they feel it is better for all involved instead of the simple "I dont like it nerf" or the "I going to quit cause its not fun for me anymore" it simply sounds to me like listening to my kid stamping her feet on the ground having a temper tantrum.
I play both sides and honestly survivors are the main problem in soloQ not killers i am tired of the gaslighting, sure there are killers that are just tosspots but it is certainly not an epidemic like ppl claim. I have no idea how many times i played survivor to be left on hook, farmed off hook or simply killed because of what a random has done. I honestly rarely get slugged for the 4k so i find these posts saying they get slugged every match a bit hard to believe.
Just read a lot of the recent discussions it is mentally draining to see so many survivors just complaining because it is not easier for them or that the killer is not catering to their fun or their playstyle. This entitlement needs to stop and more constructive suggestions made.
I see your point in other threads too and i agree to a point with some of them but yeah end of the day this is a pvp game and a asymmetrical game and it will never be truly balanced and the balance of power will always sway from one side to the other depending on the changes.
Sure maybe i should not be calling people brats etc but i am fairly blunt and i say it how it is basically maybe i could be more "tactful"Yeah, I definitely agree that the balance is super challenging since it has to balance across all MMRs and playstyles. There's only so much that can be done to satisfy everyone with different approaches and preferences. It's almost a miracle that BHVR manages as much as they do.
Also, about survivors, getting left for two hook states still blows my mind every time it happens. I run kindred and sometimes watch from the hook as one teammate sits on a gen, one is getting chased, and the third is invisible, clearly in a locker while I go to second stage. Not too common, but those are facepalm moments.
Personally, I probably post too much on these forums these days, so I very much get the weariness with constant complaints too and hope I don't contribute too much to it. Though I'm sure I write some repetitive things in different threads and sometimes get a little preachy ☹️
Anyway, if you're wanting to see some positive stuff in the forums, there are some posts in the last couple weeks titled "DBD - A Halloween Story" and "Positive DBD Interactions" that have goofy or cute killer-survivor interaction stories :)
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@OmegaXII said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834410#Comment_3834410
That you'll have to blame how the game is designed. Getting Kills = Wins, you can't blame people for wanting to win more honestly.
I'm always prefer it not to be on kills but on hooks, but it is what it is now.
Yeah, people will generally want to have what they feel is a good outcome in games.
I think some people would play differently if they saw how their opponents felt in real time. Like would so many survivors teabag or killers tunnel or slug for 4k if they saw how it felt for the other player? But that's an issue in general with online gaming. And I definitely don't think this community is ready for comms or something similar :/
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@OmegaXII said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834187#Comment_3834187
Could it be that winning is fun? 3k is a win, yes, but 4k is a better win.
That's all the reason you need.
But even when trying to get a 'better win', it's possible to treat your opponents in a way that you would like to be treated. If you find it fun to be slugged for 4k or to have to be the last survivor standing in a slug for 4k situation, then I'd say it's a solid argument. But I think most people don't like being in that situation.
Personally, I don't mind losing a match as survivor or killer, and have fun even when a killer dominates a match or survivors are super hard to chase and manage to give me a loss. I still get to play the game in those scenarios, build my skill, etc. But slugging for 4k has never been fun for me as survivor, regardless of whether I'm the slug or the last person standing. I still remember the shock from the first time someone slugged me for 4k and to this day find it to be pretty unfair to the last survivor.
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I've seen several posts like this lately, but I think there are actually players experiencing negative impacts on their experience in the game as a result of the update.
The finisher mori gives a reward for getting to a 4k, and doesn't care about the methods used to get it. Personally, my matches recently have had a much higher incidence of multiple negative playstyles in the time since the update. I've seen much more tunneling, camping, and slugging for 4k, to such an extent that I'm finding it less rewarding to play the game now and have found myself having days when I don't even feel like playing a match.
My suspicion is that not everyone is coming here and making things up. I really enjoy the game and would like to see the experience stay good, but so far recently whenever I play a few survivor matches, I usually wonder why I started up the game.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834187#Comment_3834187
It's not fun to spend ages hunting for the survivor but it works both ways, if the survivor doesn't find it fun and is helpless then they have the choice to not hide and get the match over with. They actively choose the unfun way of hiding it out for the hatch so I took pick the unfun way of hunting them down to get the 4k. Slugging for the 4k doesn't force them to do anything, they have the choice to come out of hiding if they want to.
Also the purpose of doing gens gets bypassed by survivors that refuse to do gens all match and just want the hatch. So to counter it yes I try avoid hatch from spawning. My point is as it stands the hatch isn't fulfilling it's purpose and encourages killers to slug, encourages survivors to neglect gens, encourages hiding in 2 v 1 situations. Even if mori was removed I think people would still slug the 3rd especially after the 2 v 1 hiding situation has got worse alongside slugging (survivors trying to avoid giving killer the mori)
I'd disagree with this thinking. By slugging for 4k, the killer forces the last survivor into that situation. Without slugging for 4k, the hatch prevents that drawn out hunt since the killer or survivor will find the hatch and either end the match or trigger the endgame collapse. The only way this wouldn't happen is if two survivors are both trying to hide from the killer and not even trying to do gens, which I have seen as killer occasionally. I've never seen this in my survivor matches since I always try to do gens in that scenario.
Agreed about survivors who refuse to do gens for the whole match though. If they're not even trying to do gens and just hiding instead, they doom their team and force the game into a hatch situation. I don't see this sort of thing very often, but occasionally it happens.
Having said all that, I think I responded to a few of your comments now and while I think we have a few opposite opinions, I want to make sure you know I'm not trying to be hostile or undermine your opinions. Just wanting to discuss opposing views :D
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@Firellius said:
Not this again…
A 40% mean escape rate means the killer will win about 47% of the time.
You are not calculating this. You are not simulating this.
You are treating every game like a pure roll of the dice, and the thing is: DBD is not like that at all. The dice aren't even, they're weighted. Badly. And they're even weighted differently from killer to killer.
This argumentation has been tried before, multiple times, and it keeps missing pretty much every factor in the game. DBD is incredibly complicated, which means there IS no simple 'kill rate = win rate' conversion. Hell, sometimes killers with higher kill rates have lower winrates, for example with killers that are better at securing at least one kill in the endgame such as Bubba.
And to quickly demonstrate that they're not directly linked: Imagine if the devs decided to axe the hatch. What would that do for the kill rate, and what would that do for the win rate?
One of them would be changed, the other would not.
These micro-simulations where you just roll dice is not a representation of DBD.
60% is decidedly killer-sided. That one dev remark (Though I think it was Peanits that said it, and aren't they a community manager?) about the 60% target marking even lampshades this by saying that, with 60%, the game is still relatively balanced. That figure is picked because it works for the game's horror aesthetic, without breaking the balance -too much-. It is NOT the target for a balanced game.
OP's approach is a good start, and what you say is also very true. I deal with a lot of identification of trends and understanding correlations and statistics in my job, and I fully agree that going next on hook, friendly killers, and other influences need to be accounted for to better understand what's really happening in people's games.
I'm a novice at Python, so I probably won't run through the code unless I get super curious. But these factors could be coded into a simulation also. Accounting for the randomness of some of the variables you discussed is feasible, but the accuracy of the resulting model can always be questioned until it's inputs and outputs are verified against known quantities.
So yeah, OP: well done!
This comment: good point!
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@イエローミント said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834222#Comment_3834222
So, in Little League, do they teach students to "go easy on the other team to avoid making them feel bad" just because it's not pro sports? Just because it’s a 1v4 doesn’t mean the single player has to hold back. It’s not the killer's responsibility to ensure a fun experience for the survivors. The killer isn’t the caretaker or parent of the survivors—they’re also just regular players trying to enjoy the game.
If you’re going to bring up the idea of a “fun experience for all players,” then survivors would also need to consider the killer's “fun experience” by evenly repairing all seven generators without trying to t-bag or flashlight-stun.
And as for so-called "cheap tactics," the game’s system doesn’t prohibit any of them. Are you saying tunneling should result in a ban? Slugging? Generators being repaired quickly? None of these claims make sense. In strategy, there’s no such thing as "dirty" or "clean" tactics.
I usually write too much trying to show my thinking; thanks for reading it... like, for real :)
I'd say there are definitely 'dirty' or 'clean' tactics, but it's just not always obvious or agreed upon about what's clean or dirty. Community discussions about those things are probably good. And I fully agree that survivors teabagging is bm too. It's basically used to taunt the killer, which I don't like from either side. The killer's fun is just as important as any survivor's fun :D
To directly answer your questions: I don't think bm should be bannable in the game. But I do think it should be discouraged.
And in little leagues, they often have a mercy rule that makes it so one team doesn't have to suffer while the other team keeps building a bigger score. They do try to incentivise good sportsmanship in children's sports, even when they teach them to try their best 🙂
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@イエローミント said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834262#Comment_3834262
I also agree that patrolling the gates during the EGC after closing the hatch is one of the biggest time-wasters in this game.
I feel this. On the killer side, you're wondering if you'll leave a gate too long and the survivor will get out before you get back. And on the survivor side, it feels like a way to just wait for death to come with no real way out of it.
Personally, I enjoy seeing the exit lights coming on and catching the survivor, then carrying them back so they can wiggle off at the gate switch. It kind of feels like shaking my opponent's hand at the end of a good game :)
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@JonahofArk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3824783#Comment_3824783
This. Idk why people came out the woodwork to complain about the new mori system causing killers to slug for finisher mori. They've been doing that. It's not more prevalent cause of the changes. They've been doing that. If someone wants a 4k, they're gonna get a 4k. It doesn't matter about the built in cypress mori. It doesn't matter about anything as long as the killer wants a 4k. Stop complaining about it.
Better yet do something about it if it's such a problem. There's perks that facilitate finding hatch like clairvoyance, left behind, low profile, and others. Bring an endgame item like an iri map or iri key so you can find hatch or open it if it's closed. There's so much complaining on here bout the new mori. It's ridiculous. It ain't that serious bruh.
If you're that frustrated, go play something else. Works for me.
I think it's valid for people to complain if they see something they don't like in the game. It makes sure BHVR has a chance to hear and adjust to all our concerns if things get too prevalent :)
And personally, I've seen a much less fun experience as survivor after the update as well. Lots more use of tunneling, camping, and slugging for 4k recently. My matches as killer are essentially unaffected by the update since I don't use moris :D
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@Potato_Survivor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834258#Comment_3834258
Yea ok buddy if you say so. OP had nothing to say about balance in his first post and all i see through the thread is nothing of real constructiveness just people complaining an AYSYMETRICAL GAME 1 V 4 pvp game is not balanced lmfao.
Continual bs about how hard done by survivors constantly are and how horrible it is for them without even a spec of self awareness nor most ever seriously playing the other side to see it from the other perspective.
Act like a bunch a spoilt brats you get treated as suchI agree that some posts or comments can seem a bit childish, or ranty at times, but it's important to listen to what people are saying. Personally, I found OP's post to not be so bad. They expressed a legitimate take that they felt better about leaving the game than playing it, and the original post did express a bit about how they felt regarding certain practices in the game.
I think it's worth pointing out that in your comment here you've laughed at people and belittled their opinions, accused people of not being self-aware, and called people spoiled brats.
For the record, I personally play both sides and have found survivor to have gotten worse recently. So I'd tend to agree somewhat with some of OP's opinions.
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@Potato_Survivor said:
The amount of crying is way too high.
You lot talk like if you left, BHVR would actually care lol
Love these emotional I am leaving posts trying to get attention lolI don't think it's productive to laugh at people and tell them they're crying, etc. OP was posting a legitimate take on the direction of them game.
And I tend to agree that solo queue survivor is heading in the wrong direction, mainly as a result of game mechanics.
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@イエローミント said:
I really can’t understand posts like this. Why should we be expected to consider the experience of the opposing team in a PvP game? In 1v1 games or team matches with equal numbers, I've never seen anyone ask their opponents to go easy on them. If we were actually meant to achieve a balanced 12-hook game, BHVR would have implemented such a system by now. Tunneling, slugging, and fast generator completion are not wrong ways to play. Just because someone finds it unpleasant doesn’t mean they should criticize others for making choices within the rules or push their own rulebook onto others.
This is like asking why I should consider the experience of my opponents when I play sports. We do that because everyone should be having fun. The only time cheap tactics should reasonably get used is in gaming leagues or professional sports (or esports).
Every person playing any game with another person should be expected to consider the experience of the people they're in the game with. We all play games to have fun, and cheap tactics like tunneling, camping, and slugging for 4k make the game less fun, as does taunting (e.g. by teabagging during chase or at gates).
And this isn't to say 'don't play hard', just don't make the game completely awful by using cheap playstyles.
If a person wants to engage in cheap tactics or taunt other players, they should recognize that those behaviors make the game worse for the people they share it with. If someone doesn't want to do that, it's probably best if they consider playing single player games instead.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834136#Comment_3834136
No. You give yourself and your teammate no hope. I've had matches where it was a 3v1 super early, or it was a 2v1 with like 2 gens left, and we got all the gens done. Might not have both escaped, or even one of us, but if the gens get done that means there's a chance. All us killers play to the bitter end as well, because of that chance of winning.
What do you mean by 'us killers'? I've heard legends of people who only play one side, but it's very rare to encounter one. Like meeting a llama or Tim Curry. Are you such a creature?
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3834119#Comment_3834119
I often do that. I had a match where there I pretty much took out 2 survivors by the time 1 gen was done (they were both trying to go for saves near eachother). I ended up carrying the 3rd survivor around the map to find the 4th. In that situation I won the match hands down so like hell I'm going to allow someone doing nothing to get the hatch.
You often slug for 4k? I don't even understand how it's fun for the killer to hunt for the fourth survivor in that scenario. And it's almost definitely not fun for the survivor. There's no realistic chance for the fourth survivor to save the game or even have fun in most slug for 4k situations. It's like hunting a completely defenseless animal in an enclosed arena; there's no sport in it. And it makes the endgame pointless and drawn out for the survivors.
Also, the game isn't just killer vs whole survivor team, it's actually killer vs team and killer vs every survivor. If the killer has sacrificed two survivors, that doesn't mean they've sacrificed every survivor in the match. It's actually pretty often the case that one or two people in a team are better loopers or have better game sense than others. The killer can choose to take out the weaker links, but that doesn't mean the remaining players have have been bested by the killer.
Hatch exists for two purposes: (i) to give the last survivor a reasonable chance to escape, both because they may not have been outplayed and because it would be pointless to play the end of the match without it in many cases, and (ii) to prevent the endgame from being a long drawn out forgone conclusion. Both those purposes of hatch are being bypassed when someone slugs for 4k.
Slugging for 4k forces the remaining survivors into a scenario where they have practically no hope of surviving and are forced to endure a hopeless situation for several minutes, even in some cases where they've clearly outplayed the killer. To stay on point with the thread, the finisher mori only encourages that behavior more by giving a reward once the 4k is obtained, regardless of the methods used to get it :(
It's definitely something that should be prevented if BHVR wants to improve the experience for most players.
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@Anti051 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3833768#Comment_3833768
It's not uncommon for survivors to get unhooked and immediately seek out the killer to body block with OTR, DH as a backup and DS to follow. OTR has an 80 second timer and does not remove collision from the survivor to curb this type of misuse.
Someone with DS can be unhooked and healed while the killer chases, downs and hooks a completely different survivor, but if the DS timer is still active and the first survivor gets caught again, then the killer is punished by DS even though they didn't "tunnel."
It's bogus, it sucks and a lot of people who play killer are becoming quite tired of "playing nice" yet still eating a mouthful of garbage for it. It's like being told to not cross a line or you'll be tasered, then getting tasered anyway even though you obeyed.
I mean, if the survivor goes out of their way to body block you, they get what they get. I pulled that against a Wesker a few days ago, hard blocking after an unhook bc my teammate was injured on death hook. There were even more reasons why I went out of my way to do it, but when I got chased off hook, I knew what I was getting into :)
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3833647#Comment_3833647
If they're standing in the exit gate, how are they helping the fourth survivor?I guess I should be more clear. I was referring to scenarios where 3 survivors are safe and can escape with zero risk, but they instead choose to save the 4th to get them out as well instead of just taking the win right away. The argument was regarding why killers would ever want to secure the 4k when a 3k is already a win, so it was creating a relative parallel. Guess I should have worded it better.
That said, I disagree with your argument separating the two. While you are right that survivors are generally not having fun during the slug scenario, if the killer is losing badly and just wants to secure one kill at the end of the game, they are probably having as much fun as the slug/hider. While its certainly true that it can be a more dynamic experience, that doesn't rule out the scenarios where they would rather just be done with the match.
I think there's a subtlety here about survivor success conditions vs killer success conditions. Survivors tend to have a more binary condition for winning/losing in their matches. If I escape by any means, it's a win for me in my mind. But if I get sacrificed, it's a loss. So for each survivor, getting sacrificed is a worse outcome than not being sacrificed.
Generally, I don't see survivor escapes as a team success, but as a set of individual successes. I know when I stick around and risk it all for the last survivor, I'm not looking for a bigger win for the survivor side; I'm trying to give my teammate a condition that's not a loss. It's not even about competing with the killer, but more, just making sure my teammate gets a chance at a good outcome. That outlook also means I'll be happy to swap hooks with my teammate if they get out :)