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@MrMori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3826486#Comment_3826486
Let's say you're downed at a pallet close to gate with power struggle and flip flop as the last survivor. Before, the killer would have to either pick you up and give you a free escape, or keep you slugged for 4 minutes till you bled out. That's no good. Now the killer can just mori you, I think that's better.
Sure it makes for less "interesting" gameplay but at the same time, the game is over. Also, not being able to hook a slugged survivor is rare now that hooks respawn, but even then, unless you're slugged right next to gates, the killer could just wait until you had crawled close enough to a hook while crawling toward gate to hook you unless you were at like 90% wiggle progress. I think the mori is fine really.
If the gate is opened or 99ed and the survivor is close enough that wiggling free would let them escape, you're not giving them a free escape by picking up. They've earned a chance to escape by getting into a situation where they're close enough to have a chance. I've definitely dropped survivors close to the gate (to get their teammates) and ended up having to choose between picking up or risking them crawling out. That doesn't mean I'm entitled to deny that player the chance they've earned to escape if they wiggle out. I have to earn it.
In that case, the mori is giving a free kill to the killer who would otherwise have to work for it. Near the gates, the survivor doesn't generally crawl near a hook. And the game isn't over for each survivor until they're on their last hook. The interaction of each survivor with the killer is different than the killer's effort to stop the team. If the killer wants to deny a survivor's abilities like that, they should have to bring an offering. I actually find those last-second chases fun, even as killer :)
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@Shinkiro said:
Unbreakable exists… if the entire team can get slugged well thats just a skill issue and you got outplayed by the killer.
OP is talking about more than just cases where a Blight or Billy run around slugging everyone, which is also an extremely annoying playstyle.
But OP's post and followup comments indicate that they're also talking about slugging for 4k, which has become a more contentious issue for a variety of reasons since the finisher mori was released.
Neither of these, though, are skill issues. Both of them are exploitations of the game mechanics. In that way it's similar to bouncing a ball off someone's knees during the check in basketball to immediately get a steal. Sure, the rules allow it, but nobody wants to play with you if you do it. It's not even competitive behavior, it's just bad sportsmanship.
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Agreed. I don't like moris and this would be a serious QOL improvement :D
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Yesterday I was chasing a bot that ran to the corner of the map and tried to hide behind a cactus as I watched it go there.
They need a corner avoidance mechanism. But sometimes they loop better than survivors with >1000 hours and your only choice is to make them get their window entity blocked.
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I think this might be due to a glitchy interaction with event smoke bombs, which I think also muffle sound.
Restarting DBD seems to solve it for me. Alternatively, I've heard that as survivor, you can reset the glitch by using another smoke bomb. Not sure about that though.
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I think some extra emotes/indicators could be alright for survivors, but I really can't even imagine the harassment that would happen in some matches if comms were introduced.
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I agree with most of what others have said.
I'd personally consider also playing killer and choosing to meme around a bit. When I spend some time getting people to boop the snoot and farm as Pig, I tend not to care as much in later games if I don't do well even if I'm trying.
I also find taking a walk when I'm getting frustrated helps. Like if a match seems frustrating, that can be a good moment to relax and grab a glass of water or something before the next one.
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@rhaenyraa said:
the amount of times i've played a match with only two survivors left and i get slugged so that the killer can chase and hook the other is uncanny. no really, it's laughable at this point because they don't bring deerstalker when they slug so i'm left there to crawl away and they can't find me. so i end up bleeding out. and it's almost more satisfying than escaping because they tried so hard to get the mori and couldn't because they slugged. this was a long winded way of me saying yeah, it's an issue.
Agreed. I found it shocking the first time this was done in one of my survivor matches and to this day, I still think it's a hostile exploitation of the game mechanics.
These days, I feel a rush of relief if either I or the other survivor get picked up and hooked because it means that if one of us is sacrificed, the other gets a fair chance at hatch.
And it's gotten more prevalent since the finisher mori update as well, with some killers even actively hitting the third survivor on hook over and over again because their slug isn't far and they want their mori. It's getting extreme.
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@caipt said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3830947#Comment_3830947
how would bringing the offering make this situation any different?
Then you spent resources to get it instead of having it for free, just like in some cases survivors spend resources and get a decent chance at wiggling out :)
The update freely gives the ability to deny survivors a chance in these situations :(
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@Prometheus1092 said:
A llama... Or an emu. Other than that I'd like to see some mythology figures. Minotaur or medusa. (Not strictly animals but there's some animal in there lol)
Have you seen or played Hungry Lamu?
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@Autharia said:
the RE6 giraffe
Unknown could have a giraffe skin 🦒
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@caipt said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3830910#Comment_3830910
If the killer killed every other survivor and then downed you, that kill is hardly unearned. counter by not getting 3ked.
Nope. You don't have a 4k until you earned it with that survivor too. Getting a kill on each different survivor is different than stopping a team from doing all the gens.
Until you picked them up and put them on their last hook, or bought your own ability (a mori offering) you haven't defeated them yet. The finisher mori update is taking that away. You have to earn it :D
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@Burniebotss said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3830511#Comment_3830511
you don’t just hand them a win at endgame. You say killers should just say “Ok here’s a win buddy you earned it for being last left”. Let them do what they do is shooting your self in the foot. GUESS WHAT? You’re a KILLER. you kill them
Nobody's being "handed a win" in these situations except the killer. By removing the ability of the last survivor to escape, the killer is being handed the ability to get a free kill in scenarios where the survivor otherwise has a chance at escape. Are people really so desperate to get kills in this game that they think other players should have their abilities removed to do it?
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3830461#Comment_3830461
Then we're at an impasse. He can't prove it and you can't disprove it. Isn't this a great system the devs have, where nobody can tell what their MMR is? To where we can't even begin to have conversations about the game?
This reminds me of Vizzini: "We are indeed at an impasse. I can't compete with you physically, and you're no match for my brains."
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@Burniebotss said:
what are the chances you have that perk under a pallet in endgame with gates open or 99%?. If you’re finisher moriable, you lost.
@SuspiciousBrownie said:
We’re talking about 1 in 1,000 matches that you would escape by having to be hooked. Even if you wiggle off chances are you don’t make it to hatch or gate.
It’s not that big of a deal.
This is definitely not true. I'd imagine we've all played enough killer to be in endgame situations where you're considering not picking up a survivor because you dropped them to down or chase others out the gate. If a gate is already open, sometimes it's necessary to get strategic about whether to pick up. And this is one clear scenario that happens occasionally where the finisher mori makes a difference.
And a similar argument could be used for hatch; you could pick up and try to get them on hook, or just leave them slugged, let them bleed out, and watch for hatch if they're crawling. In the latter of those two cases, I'd say just pick up and let them do what they do. It's almost never the case that they'll loop their way to hatch, and if they do, at least you both got to have some fun at endgame :D
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@TieBreaker said:
Slugging has been rampant for a long time now. The finisher mori isn't responsible for it, or even making it worse. BHVR should fix slugging and leave the mori alone.
I think many people need to be honest and admit that the mori just exacerbates the salt from losing. It's not toxic to use a mori, but slugging players to death is. Unless the survivors brought Boil Over and Sabo. Then it's self inflicted misery.
A lot of people are seeing a significant increase in toxic playstyles (e.g. tunneling, camping, and slugging for 4k) since the time the finisher mori was introduced. And the finisher mori incentivises this behavior by rewarding a 4k with a mori, regardless of the tactics that are being used to get it.
My matches have become stressful lately because I've experienced a significant increase in hard tunneling in my matches recently and I even now expect most killers to run straight to unhooks. It's also not uncommon now for me to see killers intentionally tunnel to get an advantage.
I've even seen some killers repeatedly hit the third survivor on hook because they have the slug nearby and want to get their free mori after they slugged for the 4k. I even thought repeatedly hitting on hook like that was considered bannable harassment by BHVR.
We can say these behaviors may not be impacted by the finisher mori, but there definitely appears to be a correlation between an increase in the rate of these behaviors and the release of that update.
Edit: Now that I look for that statement about hitting on hook on BHVR's webpages again, I don't see it anywhere from them. I remember thinking I saw that in the past. I'd think if someone just stands there hitting you on hook for an entire stage, it could be harassment or something, but maybe not :)
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@Xernoton said:
If a killer wanted you dead, they could have slugged you for 4 minutes and bleed you out. So you wouldn't wiggle out anyway.
The only situation that is somewhat realistic is that you are crawling out an exit gate and the killer is physically unable to carry you to a hook because there are no hooks around. In which case, was that fair to begin with? You went down and the killer could pick you up, so technically you lost and rng bailed you out.
Don't get me wrong, if they removed the finisher, I wouldn't be too upset but it's not like your escape rate will noticeably change.
I'd agree that the escape rate in that scenario wouldn't change much, but there are definitely matches where it would change the outcome.
Especially with perks like Flip Flop, Power Struggle, and DS, it's feasible to wiggle out/get dropped onto your feet and get to hatch or an already open gate (not gate for DS). But the finisher mori removes the ability to use certain perks that can enable an escape. And I know I find dramatic escapes super fun and a big motivator in the late game when I'm a survivor :D
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3830199#Comment_3830199
I don't see how it would change game perspective, to me its all about the viability of those perks and I think they are still good perks even if its changed that at the absolute end they have now been nerfed. I don't think that makes those perks unviable.
It's not that those perks become unviable, but the ability to use them to wiggle/DS out and get to hatch or an already open gate is removed by the finisher mori. It's an unusual situation, but those things are removed if the killer doesn't have to pick up.
Whether that makes a difference to your game experience could depend on your perspective :D
I think we've all been in those scenarios too, where we want to pick up a survivor and put them on hook because otherwise they'll be able to crawl out. Even just a few days ago, I had a hatch race end with me getting downed almost right on top of hatch.
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@Emeal said:
While its true someone could have escaped from those situations, the Killer basicly also had already won.
You cant get Finisher Mori'ed if others are still alive. So the question would be, is it a major problem that its now harder to use these perks to inch out a 3K instead of a 4K since they could have had a yellow mori offerings by normal too?I'd say it's a problem that these things are taken away. I think it depends on your perspective on the game though. I don't see the game in terms of winning or losing; those words don't have much meaning for me in the context of DBD. I think you can win a chase or a mind game, but winning a match doesn't make any sense to me.
As survivor, my goal is to escape and/or ensure my teammates escape.
As killer, my goal is to have fun and give my survivors a good match. I try not to get less than a 2k so I keep my MMR, grow my skill against talented survivors, and don't feel like I did a bad job. But if I get a 0k or 1k, it's fine as long as I had fun. Obviously, thanks to MMR, I tend to get more 3k or 4k than less, which should cause my kill rate to approach 60%.
I'm not saying that mine is the only perspective, but I think that in the context of those goals, survivors should keep the ability to use the perks and items they brought to try to escape. And the finisher mori denies survivors a valid chance to use their perks and items to survive in scenarios where they could otherwise escape through hatch or an already opened gate. Moris of all rarities weren't so common before, but bringing an item that negates a survivor ability in that scenario makes sense to me. Making that ability basekit seems bad for the survivor experience from my perspective.
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As a result of these bots, I actually got confused the first time I saw a doctor coming at me. I had no idea what he actually did for powers and had started the match just running around opening chests to farm better items. Then some insane looking looking killer came running at me!
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@drsoontm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3829867#Comment_3829867
Then maybe it happens more than I'm used to. (I could only see it as killer as I don't use any variation of the "funny build")
As survivor the only surprise escape I ever got was a 4% from a hook next to the gate, past the killer. I still remember how exhilarating getting out like that was. 😁
I usually don't really care if the last survivor escapes either to be honest.
That's fair. And admittedly, I remember it happening only once for me.
As killer, I remember a number of matches where I managed to slug everyone remaining within crawling distance to an open gate after dropping someone to down the others. There've been times when I was afraid to pick up again because I didn't think I could get the survivor to a hook. That dynamic is impacted by the mori update also.
In any case, those dramatic escapes like your 4% are super fun! I remember one during the recent Lights Out where we got the gates open, but Meyers was guarding the gate I got to and I was the last survivor left. This wouldn't be impacted by the finisher mori, but I had to run back into the map and managed to lose him. The egc timer was running down and I couldn't tell where I was in the dark, stumbling around to find the other gate. Then as I was stumbling around lost, I heard the hatch somewhere in the middle of the map and was very relieved to jump in. That one sticks with me a bit :D
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We need more threads like this. I kind of think BHVR should find a way to promote these things.
Yesterday I took a page from the most heart-warming DBD interaction I ever had in the past and got my survivors to do the circus activities with me on the clown's map.
Some time ago, before this, a poor scared Yun-Jin etched a place out in my heart by giving up in chase and slow-walking into corner in a circus tent, with the avatar holding onto its flashlight shaking scared. I didn't know injured avatars shook like that before then. I couldn't hook a survivor like that, so I crouched next to Yun-Jin as Pig and slowly made friends. The last two survivors obliviously did all the gens while Yun-Jin and Pig had a day at the circus. And when the gates got powered, I ran to the gate and opened it like a gentlepig. That specific unusual Yun-Jin skin is a guaranteed survival against me now.
Edit: spelling
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@drsoontm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3829856#Comment_3829856
How many times have you got a last survivor wiggling out?
It's certainly not impossible but I can't recall having experienced that for years, if ever.
Worst case, if the survivor has a funny build, I'll drop him and let him bleed to death. That's pretty rare too, maybe a handful per year?
So yes, an extremely small buff as far as I'm concerned.
Did it ever happened to you?
As survivor, I did wiggle out and loop my way to an open gate once. I guess it would happen slightly more if I ran certain perks. I've also had some extremely close hatch races, which I think are the most obvious gameplay scenario that can be impacted by the finisher mori.
As killer, I don't remember; I tend not to care when a survivor escapes. Though I think we probably all have had some matches where the gate is open and we see a surprise escape.
Agreed though; the actual buff is small :D
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@drsoontm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3829765#Comment_3829765
No, not a buff at all.
And, just in case it's not obvious, thank you for killing yourself on hook to help the killer and ruin your team's chance. <3
It is a small buff; it removes the ability of the last survivor to try to wiggle free on the way to the hook. Typically, this doesn't matter much, but in some cases can be the difference between hatch and escape, or (more likely) running out an already opened gate as the last survivor left.
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I used to see these and then farm the match, then report them bc if my win rate is going to artificially increase, it should at least be from a friendly killer, not hermanbot.
Eventually, I think you can get to an MMR where this isn't seen anymore.
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@HexHuntressThighs said:
Yeah people are crying about it like crazy and making up all sorts of lies about slugging increasing by 400% to try and get it removed. All of which isn't true at all. I see slugging in about 1 in every 15-20 games. It just doesn't happen. I brought Unbreakable yesterday and out of 40 matches only got to use it once.
I have seen a massive increase in tunneling and camping lately. There's a correlation between the time when the finisher mori came around and the number of matches where this happened to me. Matches have become much less fun.
I've definitely seen people slug for the mori too, even been hit repeatedly on hook during a slug for 4k situation because the killer wanted me to let them have the mori as a prize for bypassing hatch. I think it's having a very negative impact so far.
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I like this thematically. Sounds fun!
But this would be a serious nerf for Pig. If I understand right, this would make RBTs be applied only when ambush hits. But ambush is an anti-loop tool that isn't used in every chase. My first chase with Pig often ends without using ambush, which would leave me without slowdown upon completing the chase. And other than stealth, Pig is mostly an m1 killer who relies heavily on slowdown to power mid-match dominance.
RBTs should also be followed up by a hook. That takes one survivor off a gen to go for the unhook, and the unhooked survivor is off gens for a while as they get the pig hat off. The proposed method here would leave the downed survivor off hook and take that pressure away unless the teleported survivor is teleported and put on a hook somewhere.
I also frequently find myself choosing whether or not to put a pig hat on after I've as already got control over the flow of the match. It would be good to keep that choice so some pressure can be applied at endgame if the survivors pull themselves back and get down to one or two gens.
I do like the feel of this, but I think it needs to retain Pig's ability to select when she puts RBTs on or not, and she needs to maintain her ability to push slowdown when she applies the hats by also hooking. She's not a strong killer like Nurse or Blight, and I'm a Pig main, so I have to watch out for these things. However, either way, do boop the snoot!
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Yeah, I'm finding it has a pretty negative impact on my experience as a survivor as I don't like moris to begin with and the finisher mori gives a prize incentivising any method needed to get the 4k.
Lately, my survivor matches have been much sweatier and have had a much higher incidence of tunneling and camping. The game is going from being fun to mainly stressful lately :(
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@emetSdidnothingwrong said:
I must be special or something, because all the crap people gripe about on these forms (slug/tunnel/camp) rarely happen. Just because you were chased twice in a row because you instantly got on a gen after being unhooked doesn't mean you were tunneled, just because the killer chases your teammate around the hook because they won't leave doesn't mean you are being camped, and just because the killer doesn't instantly pick you up regardless of what is happening around you doesn't mean you are being slugged constantly. How about you just gitgud, the killer didn't use "cheap tactics" or "op perks" you just suck at the game. I mean ffs people are now crying about aura reading perks, good god it's like a frikkin south park episode every time I log into these forums.
I think people are complaining about tunneling when they get chased to the exclusion of anyone else and get the first three hooks. I've absolutely had killers chase me, put me on hook, run straight back to the unhook, chase again, put me back on hook, run back to the unhook and chase again. It's not even kind of fun to be the target.
A few days ago in solo queue, my team helped me escape it on two hooks, and then I played carefully the rest of the match. We got all four out since the killer lost gen pressure chasing me and didn't get their 1v3. It was fun giving a tunneler a 0k.
But I doubt most people here are taking the time to come to the BHVR forums, sign up, and then complain because they got chased twice in a row once or their teammate looped around their hook. I'd suspect they're not having fun in the game for some reason if they're doing that.
And as far as tunneling, camping, and slugging for 4k, those are regular occurrences. I literally just finished a match where someone slugged the third, found and chased me, then went back and stood over the slug to get their mori.
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@PuddleOfBludd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3828048#Comment_3828048
so what are you suggesting that killers just throw every game so that all four survivors get to be in the game till the end and then escape? That sounds pretty mean to me. It almost sounds like you don’t care about that player’s feelings.
Nope :D
But thanks for accusing me of not caring about people's feelings when referencing a post where I repeatedly stated that all players should enjoy the game.
As killer, I try to make sure to give my survivors a good match. That means making them work for it. I said absolutely nothing about having a killer or a survivor throw the game. Personally, I do pull 3k and 4k matches pretty regularly, more than I get 2k or less. But I do try to make sure the other 80% of people in the game also have a fun time.
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@DarthYooDar45 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/431054/cant-take-the-tunnelers
To be fair, maybe if every survivor didn't gen rush and make every match last five min, killers wouldn't have to slug and tunnel. I understand if you are exempt from this, but 90% of killers only slug and tunnel because of gen rushing. It's the only counter to it because every gen regression perk gets nerfed to oblivion. This game caters to survivors heavily and you can't convince me otherwise.
Honestly, I don't think gen rush is a thing. Survivors should start the match spreading out on gens and as killer I usually expect to see significant progress on one or two gens by the time I'm getting my first hook. My feeling is that genrush is just what should be happening.
As far as whether the game caters to survivors or killers, that's going to be influenced by an individual's skill level and the tactics they use. Tunneling out a weak target is going to give you a 1v3, and if done when there are three or more gens left, it can heavily switch the match in your favor. If tunneling is done effectively, it will push a killer's MMR higher than they're ready for, causing them to need to tunnel more. Tunneling people out will often lead to more tunneling.
However, it tends to ruin the game for the tunneled survivor and often wrecks the game for their team. There are five people in each game, and tunneling is usually fun for one person at most. So the primary effect of strong tunneling is to make the killer player sweat more and make the game less fun for most survivors.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3829113#Comment_3829113
I'm not sure if my MMR is high or not (I assume high based on the frequency I get 3/4k...how many months does someone have to get 3/4k to get in higher MMR? but obviously I have no idea) I did notice a huge influx of swf and players that clearly know the strong areas and weak areas of the maps and fully kitted out with top perks. Going against them with low mobility killer is a real sweat fest. I usually go PH or Myers. Both low mobility. tunnel with PH and double iri Myers is the way I go and people usually complain regardless if they get taken out fast by PH or mori later in the match by Myers. It takes so long to get T3 that it gives people the opportunity to play the game but they still say toxic killer lol.
I wish I was going against easy going players but unfortunately that's rare and even rarer to not have any negative remarks post match about how I play the game what perks I'm using (noed being almost guaranteed to get people worked up). They get to play the whole match then complain they lost at the end due to a perk 🤷♂️ would they rather be tunneled out asap? That's my experience anyway, others might have a different experience playing the game
I feel that. If I'm feeling competitive and pull too many 4ks for a while, I'll start getting evenings where I'll get obvious swfs over and over again, bringing rare offerings that strengthen the whole team, all strong loopers, heavy meta playstyles. Sometimes I'll see the same swf multiple times.
I main Pig, and her mid-match has to be strong to win those matches. So the pig hats and slowdown have to couple hard, and all chases have to start with the survivor injured or get the first hit after a couple seconds. That makes her chases into one-shot downs if you approach the survivor with broken line of sight.
But then sometimes I get tired of the sweat and let the boopers escape. If I'm feeling competitive, I don't give them a moment to try for boops, and if they get a boop off, I'll leave them slugged for pressure. But I usually give the last person an escape once I down them, or if I win the hatch race, I'll guard the hatch and make them be brave to get out.
Having said that, I usually get positive interactions in post game chat. It's probably the contrasting play styles you and I have that make that difference. It's definitely fun to have a good match and then get to have fun with your survivors at the end :D
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3829066#Comment_3829066
But you seem to be saying that the only way a killer can play and not be considered toxic is to run slow down perks and spread hooks. Without slowdowns the gens fly. I'm already forced to run lightborn with the constant flash bangs and flashlights. It removes any variety of perks and playstyles. Regardless of how much or little skill is required to tunnel it does take some skill to counter it that's why I say it's a skill issue.
I don't think the only way a killer can play and not be toxic is to run slowdown. It's possible to run multiple perks to enhance your chase and try to down survivors faster than gens pop. But I also don't think I'm super broken at chase, so I usually run one slowdown perk, one or two information perks, and one or two chase perks.
One thing that I do find problematic is that at very high survivor skill level, it seems some killers can become practically unviable. I don't think I'm top MMR, so my take on this will have varying mileage, but my impression is that at the highest skill levels, high mobility killers (e.g. nurse, blight, etc.) are almost necessary.
Having said that, I've seen one streamer who just pops onto stream and starts doing a 4k streak with nurse literally every time. I've never seen him struggle to dominate a match. And when he doesn't get a 4k, it's because he let the last one live intentionally, or they got hatch.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3828791#Comment_3828791
It may be negative for the player eliminated first but that's game lol. 1 in 4 chance of being the unlucky tunnel victim. On the bright side at least they get to go next sooner than the rest of the team. I'm all for making the game fun for all but what makes 1 happy can make another frustrated. I think thats the way it's going to be unless they rework the whole game at its core. Hate the game not the player 😁
Honestly, it's not just the game, it's the player who chooses to do these things. The only times when it's alright to use 'strategies' that almost exclusively aren't fun for other people playing the game are in the realm of professional sports (or esports).
You came to this thread, read OP's post, and said that getting tunneled is a skill issue in spite of the fact that most of the community considers tunneling bm at best, and in spite of the fact that OP is clearly having an awful time. The truth is that playing killer is incredibly easy until you push yourself up beyond an MMR where you can reasonably win matches.
I don't tunnel, camp, or slug for 4k unless a squad has chosen to ignore their goals and try to harass me. Nevertheless, I face survivors much more talented than I am as survivor. I expect that at the end of the first chase, a gen or two is about to pop, but I run a little slowdown and can usually pull a 3k or 4k without much effort. At equilibrium, I do occasionally get a 2k or less, but that's alright.
If the only way someone playing killer can win matches is by tunneling, that person probably has a skill issue.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3828739#Comment_3828739
I'm saying that's the point to the game, eliminate the survivor...take them out of the match. If the survivors don't like that then simply don't play or learn to stay in the match longer. By definition tunneling is getting 1 survivor out, others are able remain in the match for a while longer until they are eliminated. Can't play an elimination game and complain when your 1st one out. Like I said gens fly so fast it means killers have to eliminate fast. I rarely tunneled originally but the moment gens started popping super quick even with regress perks while I was spreading hooks I turned to tunneling.
I wrote some big long message, but I don't want you to think I'm being hostile, and I'm sleepy, so I'm writing a shorter one :D
I think that even in this sort of game, we need to remember that other people want to participate and have fun. That's the ultimate goal of the game for everyone, to enjoy it!
So, while you're right that tunneling will get someone eliminated, it still does it in a way that typically makes the experience very negative for the person on the receiving end. Also, something something gens popping, 1k is alright :D
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3828705#Comment_3828705
That is the game survivors choose to play. If they want to see match through to the end they should play killer. If they don't mind the elimination style gameplay of survivor then play survivor. But I don't think it's fair to say a killer tunneling (eliminating a player faster than some would like) is toxic or that the killer feels it's alright to make the match awful by doing his job... Getting kills. Maybe the solution is make gens take considerably longer to complete and give survivors a respawn so they are never removed from the match but that would result in a whole different type of game thats not dbd.
Are you saying that making it so a person can barely participate in a game is not toxic?
I think we need to keep in mind that people want to actually participate in the game, and tunneling prevents that. Why would someone want to play as survivor at all if someone got tunneled out in every match, giving the killer a 1v3?
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@MaddieMage said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3828705#Comment_3828705
You can’t incentivize not tunneling. The devs have tried that by giving buffs and all that did was make it easier to tunnel. Tunneling will always be a zero skill tactic that doesn’t require perks or add ons to be run to be effective. All incentivizing does is increase tunneling by giving them more tools to do it faster, especially since so many killer mains aren’t looking for fair or challenging matches. They’re just looking to win as quick and easy as possible.
The only way tunneling will stop is when it’s PUNISHED period. Punish it and give buffs elsewhere to compensate for taking away the effectiveness of the tunneling playstyle. Until that happens, nothing will change.
That's fair, disincentives are probably best.
Though I don't think anyone should get buffs for choosing not to play in a way that disregards the experience of other players. If people are relying on tunneling to get a 2k or more, I think they're in the wrong mmr.
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The answer to bm and toxic playstyles isn't "get better."
Beyond that, if a killer wants you out of the match bad enough, they're taking you out unless you're incredible at looping. There is a question of whether they feel like getting just a 1k if you're very good at looping, but that doesn't stop the problem if the killer just feels like it.
And if you're a weak enough link on a team, there are killers who feel it's alright to make the match awful for you by selecting you for elimination immediately. Then once your match has been ruined, the whole remaining team has a 3v1 because the killer thought it was alright to do that.
The real solutions to this are implementation of anti-tunnel mechanics, incentives for not tunneling, and changing the community culture.
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If the first three hooks are all on the same survivor, the tunneled survivor pulls the killer up to join them on hook to celebrate 🥳
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@SuspiciousBrownie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3828432#Comment_3828432
Way too weak, you gotta pump those numbers up. Aura reveal to 60 seconds and all gens explode for 200% meaning they would have to be repaired for 110% to stop regressing. Then each unique hook spawns a new generator that has to be repaired. Then the game MIGHT be balanced.
I think the killer needs to be sneakier. Every time a survivor completes a gen, it should turn into a hook, and the survivor is on it.
And every time you go to unhook a survivor, the unhooked survivor turns into a hook, and you are on it.
For real though, probably something small, like if you leave the hook for a large enough distance for a certain amount of time, you get killer instinct to indicate the rough region of another target. I think slugging as a strategy against bully squads needs to remain viable though, so I like the idea of promoting hooks with a very small bonus.
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3828566#Comment_3828566
Yeah, but you sorta need to demonstrate the problem exists before you are justified in fixing it?
I think what Skillful is indicating is that the finisher mori rewards any playstyle used to get the finisher mori. And that definitely can encourage playstyles that deny some players a chance to play the game normally or encourage playstyles that are otherwise hostile to players in an unhealthy way. That would be a good thing even if people weren't seeing more tunneling, camping, and slugging for 4k in their games now.
It sounds like they want to use the finisher mori as a tool to help encourage positive playstyles (by discouraging things like tunneling, camping, slugging for 4k, etc.) and rewarding the killer with the mori only if they aren't engaging in those more negative practices.
If that's what's intended, I think it would be a step in the right direction. I'd personally also like to see an option for the moried survivor to skip the animation, but that's a separate discussion :D
And it's clear that there are certainly some people who don't like the mori, its impact on the game, or both. Some of the streamers I watch also complained about these things recently (not to say streamers are the authority on it, but they're an extra opinion). I say this latter part to kind of answer your last comment and indicate that there are people who see this update as a problem.
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Agreed with most of the other comments here. I find bots are easy to down, but they're designed in a way that's going to take a little time in chase. A bot will usually fail to handle shack well and get hit there, but will also manage to waste more time than a lot of survivors. So very good survivors will handle themselves better than a bot, but new survivors can't hold a candle to that triple window vaults the bot will probably pull on you.
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@IcallBS said:
I had put how I felt about the game and the community earlier but did not give but 1 example of a toxic killer, and the fact that survivors killing themselves on hook needs an actual pipping system back in the game.
Survivor experience
I have had survivors that refused to heal me, they would shake their head no and walk away or get back on the gen. For an example a Feng that was on a gen, I had ran the killer and he gave up after 1 gen popped during our chase. I went to a gen that was barely working and asked for a heal. She just straight ignored me. Later, she gets downed and I notice that no one is going to save her. I being the nice person I am go save, get chased, and I lose the killer. Still at 0 hooks. She gets downed again, and it was end game. There was only me and another survivor that could go for the save. The other survivor was hurt like me, and just stood at the gate 99%. I was also hurt, and I again went in for the save, and managed with dh to get to her. I even ran the killer long enough for her to find a med kit and heal. Did she make an effort with plenty of time being this was my 1st hook to heal the other survivor staring at my aura on the hook, that she obviously knew was there because she was there when the feng was on the hook...No, she just walked to the exit, and left. So survivors killing themselves on hook, and being crappy to other survivors is very common.
I have also had a match where survivors did all they could for a camped or tunneled survivor. I just wish they had a survey before the game based off of others mentality of the game. Grouped the jerks up with the jerks and the people who play games for "fun" with other players that do the same. This is not a tournament. You gain no money, no trophy to show on your shelf, etc. It a Flippin game that brings gamers together to enjoy the esthetic of the game and somewhat competitive matches. Not sweaty, bully, or how can I be a jerk gameplay. People need to lighten up and behavior needs a different kyf for both sides, 3 dailys for both sides, and a complete rehaul on maps, perks, and pallets tbh...they have made pallets mostly a joke…BALANCE is all we ask. Not a 60/40 outlook! 50/50 please
I mainly just agree with this. Most of my solo queue teammates try to be good, but I've definitely felt shafted a few times when I manage to loop the killer enough for multiple gens get done, get saves, do a gen myself, and then all three leave me on hook :/
But I guess I've been lucky that that's not so common for me.
I think I like the idea of adding a matchmaking weight based off of certain parameters that indicate toxicity. Like solo queue players, no connection in friends list, can leave a thumbs up under different categories. But I think that needs a long discussion about the benefit of mixing different playstyles in people's matches.
Either way, I definitely get this :D
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3828236#Comment_3828236
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3828237#Comment_3828237
It would actually be incredibly easy to show, compare the average 4K rates (games that end in 4K) before and after the patch, if the number of 4Ks is incredibly higher than average fluxuations then yes, its a problem. But if the rates of 4Ks is barely changing from the norm, then this is a case believing falsely that these changes ,have caused these 4Ks, when its can be clearly seen they the 4K rate has not moved.
Do you accept these charges? Cause heck, I would not accept this system being removed for a reason without proof.
It would be a start. It is also generally bad to have a reward hidden behind a 4k when the methods used to obtain it aren't considered, even if the success rate for obtaining that 4k doesn't go up much.
Even if the 4k rate only increased slightly, that doesn't mean there aren't people still trying to use any means necessary to get to it. I think the statistics would need to include things like how many people are being tunneled, and how much proxy camping is increased. Those things may not necessarily lead to a linear increase in the number of 4ks that happen, but they will make the experience worse for players regardless.
An example of why the effect may not be linear could be that less skilled people playing killer may not realize that their tunneling target is the wrong one, and multiple gens pop if those tactics are used wrong. And other examples could be given related to overall player experience, tactics used, number of disconnects, etc. I think it would be quite a task for BHVR to run through all the necessary statistics on it.
That's not to say that it couldn't be done, but it would be quite an effort. It would probably be easier to see if there's a correlation between the time of the update and the overall player experience. Then BHVR could go about understanding any variations in player experience and addressing them if needed.
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I've seen several people post here that they play games to win and want to be competitive. But most people who want to be competitive are doing that because they find it fun to win and to be very talented at something. Ultimately, we're all playing this game to have fun.
And it's not fun to be tunneled. It's also very challenging to become good at survivor in this game, though it's very easy to do well as killer until you start getting very experienced survivors. As killer, I definitely face people who are better at survivor than me, in spite of the fact that I don't tunnel or camp (bully squads excluded). So I don't think survivors are asking to play the game on easy mode. They just want a chance to enjoy the game.
To stay on point with the thread, I'll say that tunneling and camping are bad manners, not just some competitive play style. And those approaches to the game contribute to a less fun experience for anyone on the receiving end, and appear to be more common lately.
And to provide an unbiased view, I'd say as killer, teabagging at the gate or at every pallet can accomplish the same thing, though I'll admit I've seen a lot less bm from survivors than killers lately. Whichever role we play, we can all make the experience better for the people we share the game with :D
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@Emeal said:
I can see it could become a problem for some Killers if you dangle a cool animation for 4K, they will play hard to get it.
But can we really demonstrate that those players do it more now than before? Are you sure those players would not just 4K anyway?Furthermore how come you you are tired of the Mori animation, when the other animation you would before see if the Killer carrying you to the hook? it literally takes about the same time.
Proof is hard to demonstrate conclusively. All we can really show are trends, and most of us are unlikely to bother recording our matches and statistics. So I think most of the time the best we'll be able to do is hear people's experiences.
Having said that, I've watched multiple people tunnel and slug for 4k in the last day, followed up by their mori. And tunneling, camping, and slugging for 4k have become so prevalent in my matches recently that it's starting to make the game unrewarding. These trends seem to have been on an upward trajectory since around the time the finisher mori was released.
Personally, I don't even like watching moris. I was fine with them before the finisher mori update because they were pretty uncommon, but now that they happen frequently, I'd say I got tired of them very fast.
So I've found that not only has the incidence of toxic playstyles increased for me since the update, but I also end up having the match end with a mori when I'm the last survivor. The extent of all this has reached a point recently where I usually expect the killer to come back to hook and tunnel someone out in the early game, then take their easy win and slug for a 4k :(
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@Xxjwaynexx said:
Ok so I guess I have to be that guy.
Everything I do depends on the goal I'm trying to achieve. Winning in this game is based on kills and kills alone so killers are gonna guess what!? Kill! There's zero reason or incentive to spread hooks.
That being said any pvp game is going to be competitive to competitive people. I mean do you care about the other players fun in fortnite, cod, street fighter, Forza, GTA V etc? Why should dbd be an exception?
It's well known that the most manageable way to play killer against really good survivors is to make it a 3 v1 as quick as possible because once again the win condition for killers is based of kills tunneling is the absolute most effective strategy and I do mean strategy. Camping( not face camping) is also a valid strategy for example if I down Dwight near a 75% gen and hook him fairly close, I know that someone else was with him as this was my first chase and he couldn't have had time to add that much, I search the area and find Claude I down her quickly and hook her in the same general area. I have zero reason to go anywhere else the ideal play is force the other two to save and intercept. If they don't and stay on gens then the hooked hit second stage. Camping in this scenario is a viable and the only logical option if you're going for a win. Now slugging(not bleeding out for 4 mins) has its uses as well, if I'm behind in a match I can slug to build pressure and leverage time back to my side.
The problem with dbd is you have 2 main sides people that want to have fun and aren't competitive and people that hate losing and will win be any means necessary because they are in fact competitive. Neither is wrong in they're goal, but one side does suffer way more as they no competitive side will lack the optimisation to win I their side simply because they don't care for winning. When I play if in doing a streak I'll play the most efficient way possible, I won't necessarily hard tunnel or slug but I will punish all misplays no matter what.
In the end this is a game of capitalizing on the other sides mistakes, for survivors it's all about wasting as much time as possible for your team while they do gens cleanse hex perks etc, it's inevitable that eventually the killer will in fact down you but it's the wasted time that's important the longer you waste the killers time the better. Solo q feels miserable because not everyone knows this and by judging from my games it seems like 70 percent simply don't understand how to win which tbf it's not like it's taught in a straight forward manner unlike killer which is infact straight forward chase, down, then hook. Survivors have to macro and micro manage, they have to know how long it takes to hit second stage before going for a save to optimize gen efficiency, when to take chase for another survivor, where to safely heal( not under hook and the healthy rescuer goes to hide If the killer returns), how to loop effectively and when to use resources. The bad part is that this survivor knowledge is taught at all.
I think it's a problem if people are playing games with other people and they don't care how the people they're playing with feel. I struggle to imagine how people would want to play the game with people who tunnel and camp regularly. Same with any kind of taunting or bully squad tactics (to ensure a fair set of views).
I mean, if I had four people over to my house and we all played this game in the same room for fun, I'd expect them to not want to play the game anymore if I just kept tunneling out the weakest link. That would probably lead to me running against a 3v1 most of the time, and getting easy wins, ensuring that the game isn't fun for four out of five people playing. They'd probably see me as a bully and want to do something else so everyone could enjoy something.
It's possible to play competitively and simultaneously make sure everyone involved has fun while it happens. I personally don't think it's alright to be mean to people in online games just because it's possible to do. And tunneling is almost never fun for the person being tunneled, and is a cheap tactic to tilt the game in the killer's favor.
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This might belong in the Russian language page? Although, I put this into Google Translate, and I have to say I agree :D
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Yeah, I'm changing my take on this. Matches aren't like this in 'most' games. It's pretty much every game in the last couple days. Non-stop tunneling and proxy camping. Something is seriously wrong.
Edit: I wrote the above while grumpy after two straight days or more filled with matches where tunneling and proxy camping were the main theme. Sorry for writing while frustrated. But the post's sentiment is right.
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@[Deleted User] said:
also I would just like to say that I’m iridescent 1 in both killer and survivor. But if I see more killer buffs and survivor nerfs I will never play survivor again. And good luck getting survivors to play that role if all you guys do is buff killer. I don’t know what took a turn for the worst but playing solo queue survivor is like going on a broken roller coaster. You know you’re gonna die, it’s just a matter of time. I am not joking when I say that I don’t even have to try at all when I play killer and I get a 4k. Like it’s just handed to me. These maps for survivors are a joke. They’re so small and the loops are so easy to mindgame it’s a joke. I never tunnel, or camp, or slug. I don’t care about the finishing mori. When I play survivor I get the most sweatiest players who think money is on the line. Every. Single. Game. I can never escape. It doesn’t matter how good I loop or how many gens I do. I will never live. I’ve tested it myself. I played 10 killer games and 10 solo queue survivor games. In every killer game I 3k or 4k. When I play survivor I escaped one single time.
Also I have one more question. Why is it normal for the kill rate to be 60% and the survival rate to be 40%? Why is it not 50/50. That’s the most fair???? I never understood that “logic” from the devs.
I think those survival rates include friendly killers, giving hatch, etc. So the actual survival rate earned by survivors is even lower :(