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@Ohyakno said:
I've always thought when there is one survivor left the entity should pick them up and drop them outside the exit gates with a little gold star for being such a good sport. Easier than this, similar effect.
I would also like a box of milk and some snacks for my survivor :)
Actually, I like hatch though and find it to be a pretty fair mechanic :D
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@BugReporterOnly said:
That should not be base kit. Sorry but if you have to use that add on to play Pig all the time find another killer to play. I always try and mix up my ass ons when I play killer as bit to crutch on em like I do with perks.
Sometimes I forget my ass ons when I play survivor.
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I've seen two other suggestions like this recently, and I think it's a great idea!
People have floated putting limits on the number of positive feedback points you could give per month, maybe limiting it to people who aren't on your friends list, and other constraints that make it a little less likely to be abused or just used for killers who let people go.
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@TragicSolitude said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3820261#Comment_3820261
Thanks! Nice to see you, too :)
My favorite mori is Pyramid Head
Pyramid Head is definitely one of the best moris in the game. Pinhead, too.
Your problem seems to be an overtly identification with your ingame avatar
Exactly. Talking to OP, their problem seems to be a combination of that— taking things that happen in the game too personally—and also not liking that moris change the gameplay loop. The ability to deny the third hook is gone, so survivors need to adapt and throw their resources into denying the first two hooks. OP gave examples of dying to moris against seemingly friendly killers, which becomes a matter of perspective (the killer let me get some points before killing me vs the killer pretended he was going to let me go and then killed me) and/or survivors not keeping their guards up when they should.
I know it's hard for people not to take things personally, it is natural, but as an elimination game everything in DbD is going to feel like a personal attack if someone lets it affect them. In some cases, perhaps the player needs to stop choosing a character they identify with and choose a character who is wildly different, maybe that would help some people create distance between themselves and what happens in the game.
I think you and akuma might be onto something. Personally, I know that part of the fun of gaming for me is investing a bit of myself into my character. But like with all things, there are extremes that need to be avoided to enjoy the experience. On the one hand, a full divestment of my identification with the character would make gaming feel less fun for me. But the other side of that would be that full investment could lead to too much of a feeling of victimization if something bad is done to the character.
Personally, I cringe a bit when a match finishes for me with a mori. Maybe a part of that comes from the extent of involvement I maintain with my character.
I do also think that for me, part of that feeling also comes from watching gore when it seems there's no need for it (in the sense that there's no horror left for me at the end of the match). That's kind of like the difference between watching TCM and Hostel. In Hostel, the gore barely felt like it had a purpose to me, and I wondered why I watched the film. But in TCM and other really gory films, I really liked the way it changed the depth of the horror and the impact it gave to whether the characters survive.
There's also a discussion to be had about the game mechanics and implications of the finisher mori (e.g. does it incentivise slugging for 4k and other behaviors to get to the mori)? But this response is really long already. Anyway, well said, both of you :D
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@Emeal said:
I think the framing is completely wrong, tunneling is a consequence of some plays in this game of the Killer doing what a Killer should, the Killer is doing his job, so to take away points and pips for him doing his job, is just unfair really.
Like I agree tunneling feels bad and harsh and even worse if your team-mates do nothing to help but then we have to fix the game and give survivors better options, not screw with and limit the other player who is just doing his job.
I don't think the framing is wrong here. Playing a game with other people is a group activity. And unless you're in an intentionally competitive environment (e.g. league sports or some huge rivalry), the most important part of playing a game with other people is that everyone gets a chance to have fun doing it. For most people, tunneling takes away the opportunity to enjoy the game.
Don't get me wrong, if someone teabags at every pallet, I'll sometimes decide I only want one specific sacrifice that match. But I'll only do that because taunting is bad sportsmanship, and I'll sometimes I'll repay the favor. But I do think that someone tunneling should expect to get some grief in the chat. But so should someone taunting their opponent in any game.
Having said that, I also think BHVR needs to discourage behavior that takes fun out of the game. The DBD community is a lot more positive than some other online games, and they should probably try to embrace that.
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@TragicSolitude said:
Well people tunnel to win. So why not do something with that? Give less pips to killers who win by tunneling. And give better pip rewards to killers who don't tunnel.
Pips are not a win. The kill is the win.
And if killers are intentionally tunneling to stay in lower ranks and torment newer/inexperienced players, then you have a legitimate argument for griefing and taking direct action against that account.
That would be incredibly hard to prove unless the player outright admitted to doing it.
The issue is that this is an elimination game. That's its design. Eliminating players is the goal, and as each player is eliminated it weakens the survivor side. Spreading hooks is not the way to win. Spreading hooks is done by people who like playing that way or done by people who just chase who they see and don't care about focus or kills. On lazy days I chase who I see and don't think about it any deeper than that, my memory can't be taxed with things like who's who.
Anyway, you want killers to spread out hooks, you need to reward them for doing so. Gameplay rewards, which means the opposing side somehow gets weaker with each hook state and it's at least if not more rewarding than outright eliminating someone. There's always pushback when that's brought up, "There are perks for that." And so we remain where we are. Spreading out hooks is not optimal.
I think you're right that BHVR should disencentivise tunneling. Otherwise people will keep doing it because it's almost guaranteed to secure one kill. Though, if the survivor loops well enough, tunneling can take away gen pressure, making it harder to get a 3k or 4k.
Personally, I do think tunneling is a problem because it directly makes the experience of one player worse. It might not be intended that way by the killer, but it will generally have that effect. I agree with what you said though, sometimes it's not easy to tell which Dwight you're chasing :/
And people can argue that if survivors bm the killer, why shouldn't the killer do it back? Which I'd honestly agree with; if someone teabags you at each pallet, they're actively trying to get on the killer's nerves. Anyway, not sure what the solution would be, but I do think tunneling causes more negatives for the community than positives, and is something BHVR should discourage.
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I agree with the other responses already posted. Crowdsourcing ideas is almost always helpful. That can give the devs ideas they might not come up with themselves and show them the variety and intensity of opinions across their player base. And as op said, BHVR knows the direction they want to take their game in. I think user feedback helps them do that in a way that also satisfies their playerbase (i.e. keeps them getting paid :)
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@coldflame said:
escaping is toxic
Lol, nerf exit gates!
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@TheRealConsent said:
I feel like you're missing the problem. The problem is probably not slugging for the 4k, but rather how unfair the hatch feels.
You can never fully fix it, probably. But I'd figure a good way to reduce it would be to make the hatch more balanced.
Currently, you can lose a game, lose a 50/50 on hatch and STILL escape through an exit gate. And trust me, 50% of the time at least, the gates are far enough for the survivor to easily escape.
Normally I'd suggest that the entity instantly kills the last survivor after closing the hatch, like when the timer runs out. But people want to see moris, so that won't stop slugging.
Maybe closing the hatch gives killer instinct for 10 seconds, along with exposing the last survivor? That way, a very good survivor that can hide even past 10 seconds of killer instinct can still get a gate, the killer no longer has that situation where hitting the survivor just gives them enough time to finish the gate when its around 90%, and killers have an incentive to kill the 3rd survivor to close hatch, as now they are much more likely to get the 4k.
Hatch race is very killer sided. Once there's one survivor left, I know as killer I have a better chance to get it than they do. Killer has higher movement speed than survivors and doesn't have to hide or run if the survivor shows up. I haven't counted, but I'd say I end up closing 2/3 of hatches that open when I'm killer, or occasionally standing by it and then leaving when I see the last survivor to let them know I'm giving them hatch.
To me as killer, hatch feels extremely fair. It gives the last survivor a chance, which is pretty reasonable. I mean, with four or five gens left if three survivors are out of the game, there's no chance for the last survivor to finish the gens. Even opening a gate can be a challenge for one survivor. And sometimes the last survivor is last because the killer broke chase and left them for last because they were decent at looping.
If the survivor is being tricky, they can wait at a gate for the killer to close the hatch, but that's very risky since the killer could end up running straight to the correct gate.
I find hatch to be very fair. If it didn't exist, the game might as well just end if there's more than one gen left and one last survivor. It's pretty fun to have a little game with the last survivor when I've already "won." And there are five players in the game. I don't feel the need to make four people get a bad outcome so I can get a bigger win.
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@TragicSolitude said:
I wish BHVR had named the four-man role "Sacrifice" instead of "Survivor." So that there'd be an appreciation for the simple act of surviving, that players would understand surviving is not the expected outcome but is them overcoming. It's not necessary to do damage to the killer for a win: it's the simple act of escaping that's the win. Instead, there's this sense that survival is expected.
It's the difference between watching a movie where the people are fighting off the killer out in the free world and a movie where they are imprisoned and struggle to survive and escape. All the "survivors" in DbD are actually prisoners. You escape the pit of monsters, it's a great accomplishment. (And then of course the person who escaped gets thrown back into the pit… just like the Entity sticks everyone back at the campfire and into another trial.)
When it comes to the finisher mori, what kind of animation is it people would prefer? Turning into smoke on the hook is super boring, that's not a fun end to a match. So then what would be preferred as the end-match animation?
I always thought the smoke on hook/floating into the sky was loading time for the post game screens...
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@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3818616#Comment_3818616
Getting to the endgame without any hook states doesn't mean you played well. It means you didn't take your share of aggro or leverage your hook states as a resource for your team.
It's nuts how there's actually a sizeable contingent of players that think holding m1 and crouching away as soon as they hear a whisper of a terror radius is the entirety of the game.
This is true some of the time, but I've definitely had matches where the killer breaks chase repeatedly to look for other targets, even ignoring me when I try to take chase and after tanking hits.
Having said that, you're right that if someone doesn't try to take chase at all, they're probably in the wrong mmr.
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@TragicSolitude said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3819400#Comment_3819400
I imagine a lot of people aren't going to be able to do that as much as others.
It's a skill that can be learned. It comes through self-awareness and working on oneself. Empathy isn't necessarily innate but is something learned (studies have shown people who read fiction are more empathetic, it has to do with experiencing life through different lenses).
Part of emotional intelligence is understanding that your feelings are not the only ones in play, and you don't know the motivations or feelings of the other person. In a video game, it's best to assume the other person is simply playing the game. Yes, there are some people who don't slug because their sense of empathy says it's mean to slug someone, they feel bad for doing it. But other people don't see it that way, they see it as a natural part of the game, and keeping that context in mind helps people not take things personally.
If someone gets tunneled or slugged for 4k, that can result in the player wondering why they even went into the match.
That's fair, no one likes feeling their time was wasted. That's frustration with the game mechanics and game design and still not something that should be taken personally. Frustration with DbD is normal, even expected, and anyone who's feeling it should take a break from the game. I take many breaks from DbD. It can be draining dealing with all the problems in the game, and that includes bugs and performance issues, everything just all adds up into a frustrating experience, and everyone should take breaks.
I think moris take away the sense of struggle for life that's present in horror and is really part of being human.
Horror is about fear. Some people will feel a sense of fear and tension while being chased or hiding. That is part of some horror. But there's also horror that focuses on helplessness and the complete loss of hope. Horror comes in many forms, and what type of horror you prefer and what elements of horror you prefer are personal preference. Not that I think moris necessarily fall into the latter category of horror due to complete helplessness. The struggle to stay alive is what happens while being chased and hiding and helping teammates. The mori is the brutal kill when the killer has won. That's a basic part of horror. The prey fights, they lose, they die horribly. Once that first fatal blow lands it's over and the audience is just watching the spectacle of it. That's the same thing as a mori. The struggle has ended, this is the end. It's a bit drawn out to give the audience a show, but it is the end. (I will stress I'm talking about fiction and horror tropes, here.)
The survivor is able to wiggle on the killer's should and struggle on the hook because it's not the end. The mori is less than 15 seconds long, it's an extended entity-taking-you-into-the-sky animation but (usually, cough Wraith cough) more interesting. When a mori is in play, the survivor has a warning in terms of the hidden offering, so it's up to the survivors to play around it, putting their effort into denying the first and second hooks with the understanding that there won't be a third chance. The rules of the game change, like playing around a killer's power (especially for example Pyramid Head and Sadako, but in general all killers have differences and require different styles of play from survivors).
Yeah, I mean Pyramid Head's quick chopping with his sword fits that description of being the end of the struggle. But the struggle to stay alive wouldn't reasonably end just because the killer knocks you down, hence the wiggling on the killer's shoulder and struggling on hook until the last moment. Some moris show scenarios where the survivor would be expected to keep fighting.
Also, Wraith pats are almost funny! Boop boop boop!
Don't get me wrong, I don't think moris are generally used by people to intentionally make someone's experience worse, so I wouldn't say they're toxic.
But I do think it's unfair to people playing as survivors to give the killer a basekit ability that denies them the ability to participate in something they have to watch happen in a game they're playing in. I'd probably find moris more palatable if there were a struggle involved that I could participate in until the end. Honestly, I don't find them interesting at all because there's no way for me to be involved. Just take me to the endgame screen if I can't be part of it.
Having said that, your opinions are totally valid too :D
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@Feneroe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3819424#Comment_3819424
You're not supposed to have any agency in a mori, just like you're not supposed have any agency after you're hooked the third time. Your role in the match is over, you lost.
But you still get to resist being carried to your third hook. There's a sense of struggle up to the last moment of it.
With moris, that sense of involvement and participation is gone. Instead, you just sit there and watch as your survivor gets murdered, which doesn't feel great. I think there should be some involvement from the survivor side. I mean, what person wouldn't fight back in that scenario?
In the past, I was alright with it since moris were relatively uncommon, but now we can expect moris to be very frequent. And I think both killers and survivors should have some agency up to the last moment they're in the trial.
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I agree that it feels to me like the survivor role is just being victimized by the update, but I can only imagine what bully squads would get up to with such a thing :O
I also recognize that some survivor players even like to watch moris from the survivor perspective, but I do think the finisher mori makes moris so common that I feel survivors should get a way of resisting them. In a similar way to how you can struggle against being carried and dying on hook, if moris can now happen in any match regardless of offerings or perks, I think survivors should be given some agency in that scenario.
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@UndeddJester said:
I can even imagine survivors choosing to not escape to instead see the Mori 😁😁😁
Haha! I hate the finisher mori system and feel it's ruined much of the survivor experience for me, but there are definitely people who would do that!
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@TragicSolitude said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3819321#Comment_3819321
the killer became nice, or so it seemed to us then. He dragged us all over the map using his ability, let us fix the generators
as soon as we fixed the last generator (we were both damaged as well), he dropped us both. And he moribund us right next to the generator
I still consider that nice because the killer could have killed me immediately but instead he let me get some points before killing me. If I don't need or want the points, I'll refuse to do gens and demand he kill me.
If the only thing you care about is escape in this game, matches are going to feel a lot worse. I usually assume I'm going to die and try to enjoy what happens in the meantime, it's healthier.
but you must admit, less sad than "officially" giving your soul to an entity on a hook
No? The entity isn't real and the dying on the hook animation is boring. The mori is the more fun way to die.
We can turn this around and say putting the survivors on a hook when you have a mori is like saying "I don't care enough about you to give you the cool animation." You can reframe something with no meaning and give it any meaning you want. Just try to remember it actually has no meaning except the meaning you give it.
we, as people who have emotions, feel this behavior, and it does not matter if it happened in real life or in a game. It is not a pleasant feeling.
You can't change other people. You'll be happier if you can reframe your own perspective. I don't get mad when the survivor teabags me: I assume they're trying to get my attention and keep me in chase. My feelings aren't hurt when the killer hits me on the hook: I assume they're new or they're roleplaying. If the killer decides to bleed me out, I put my controller down and go do something else.
I don't take the actions of my opponents personally. I don't take dying personally.
he did a mori on me 1 centimeter from the exit border
You knew he had the mori. Even if the killer seems friendly, if you don't want to die, you keep the mori in mind. If you did keep it in mind but your teammates failed you, then that's on your teammates. The killer did what killers do and killed.
We've all had matches like the two you described. Mori'd in the exit gate, the only person to die, killer pretended to be friendly (you should never take this at face value, always stay on your toes), all that stuff. I've been mori'd on top of an open hatch. It happens. I cursed at the game for recovering instead of letting me escape through the hatch (I hate the button bindings in DbD), I laughed a bit, and that was about all the thought I gave it.
I do not know why he did not like me
This here is the problem. You take it personally.
I've gone against killers who turned out to be streamers. I went and watched the VOD of the match afterwards. None of them were malicious about killing me. It was never personal. Some did "eenie meenie miney mo" if they were trying to decide who to kill. Some were meme-ing. One that specifically comes to mind was a killer with Rancor who was just going for surprise Rancor moris. They were talking to chat, friendly, having a good time, and even expressed how they liked the survivors they were going against, including the obsession. Yeah, the obsession who they were trying to kill, they liked the survivor, but they still had every intention of playing the meme game they queued up for and killing them.
Every once in a while someone may not like you and may target you specifically for some reason, but it's not the norm, and unless they tell you so in chat you'll never know. One of the most common reasons a killer will target one survivor over another is the survivor character someone has chosen to play as. That's not personal; it's annoying if you like a character many killers seem to have a vendetta against, but it's not personal.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3819297#Comment_3819297
mori is a complete deprivation of survivors of the ability to save a dying teammate
Survivors know the mori is in play. They can body block and try to distract the killer to help keep their teammate from going down into the dying state. There are fewer options available to the survivors, but it's not a complete removal of their ability to help each other. Personally, I think the mori is the better option than the killer slugging all four survivors and then killing them; playing in that manner also makes it harder for the survivors to help each other, and it can be extremely boring to be slugged. You may disagree and prefer being slugged, but that all comes down to personal preference, and our preferences don't determine how our opponent plays. The developers also can't design the game around these kinds of things when everyone is different and has different personal preferences.
I don't see anything wrong with giving survivors a choice whether they want it or not. Mori should have a counter-version, like "lightborne" against blinding.
The game developers went through the trouble of giving each killer (and some cosmetics) their own unique mori. BHVR is selling moris attached to cosmetics. They're not going to let survivors disable moris.
I agree that it's ideal if someone can separate their feelings from games they play, but I imagine a lot of people aren't going to be able to do that as much as others. If someone gets tunneled or slugged for 4k, that can result in the player wondering why they even went into the match.
Having said that, I don't think moris are toxic in the sense that the players using them always intend to make the match worse for the survivors. But I do feel that moris take away any sense of fighting back that survivors have. I personally hate the sense of helplessness they instill because the survivors just sit there and get killed.
I think moris take away the sense of struggle for life that's present in horror and is really part of being human. That struggle is there while survivors are being carried or on hook. In that sense, I see where op is coming from. I know some people will say you fight the mori by running in chase or hiding, but I think all that agency is removed once the mori starts, and that feels wrong to me. I'd support a struggle bar to interrupt moris similar to struggling while being carried, maybe even a competitive one where the killer and survivor get to compete with skill checks.
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100% support this change. Slugging for 4k is probably the most common toxic behavior in DBD after teabagging. And this would incentivise nonabusive playstyles.
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@TragicSolitude said:
Want to be a pain in a slugging killer's butt? WGLF, Unbreakable, Soul Guard, and Plot Twist. Make your own fun.
You may not have Soul Guard and Plot Twist, but WGLF and Unbreakable are the more important perks and they're on free characters who come with the game. Normally I wouldn't suggest an entire build to deal with one issue, but if it's happening almost every match then it makes sense to focus your perks around it. No Mither is also an option to avoid being slugged, but the broken status can ruin what would otherwise be a fine match, so it's not something I'd recommend.
I think when we're at the point where you have to run certain perks to avoid common bm play styles, it's a sign that the game design has gone wrong somewhere.
But I could see that build being fun for matches where it gets a lot of use. In a bad use of unbreakable, I once picked myself up and took off running right in front of the killer when he was coming to pick up myself and the other remaining slug, even when I had plenty of time to do it while he was away. I think it made him laugh bc he spared both of us in the end :)
But back to the point, UB is a bandaid, kind of like Lightborn for people who struggle with audio tracking. I agree with op that the current slugging meta needs a nerf (probably some minor tweaks to hooking and slugging to make it less useful to slug). Though I think we need to preserve the ability to slug for bully squads, so the balance might be tricky to find.
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I think this is true at mid-high mmr, but buffing m1 killers too much might make the game absolutely miserable for newer players.
I remember when I was still relatively new as killer and decided to try out Nemi. My first few matches with him, I got destroyed. Then I saw the most ridiculous thing I've seen in a long time. I think my Nemi-based mmr adjusted somewhat since I was on a new killer for me and took some repeated losses.
The next matches were against survivors who didn't even know how to do gens. They were just exploring the map, had no idea what looping was. I was even at shack once and heard an injured Feng, so I went around outside to look for her. After some searching, I thought "there's no way, right?" But indeed, injured Feng was hiding in a locker and stayed there when I walked around shack to look for her.
I played those matches like I was training new players because I wanted them to want to play the game afterwards. Gave them lots of chances, but also made sure to take a 2k or 3k on each so I'd stop getting those matches. But the point I want to make is that BHVR might also have to avoid buffing m1 killers too much because very new survivors could be so miserable that they wouldn't keep playing the game. And we all need new players to keep joining over time :)
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3818787#Comment_3818787
The normal gameplay loop I was referring to is both players advancing their objective, hooking is the normal gameplay loop of advancing the killers objective, slugging is not directly.
The killer is advancing their objective. it is just very slow. it is like having 1 hook and it lasts 4 minutes. When you slugged on the floor, your safe on the floor as well. in fact one of major issues behind slugging for killer is how killer cannot advance or speed-up the objective of slugging. With hooks, the killer can advance hooks faster by tunneling and re-hooking survivors but this relies on survivor to save teammate and farm them off hook. with slugging, there is no conceivable way to finish objective faster for killer. It is wait 4 minutes and that is it all.
I think that is one of reasons why pure slugging feels so ineffective for killer. the survivor can pick-up survivors over and over and killer cannot speed-up said death.
In this way the slugged survivor has no meaningful decisions to make because often any decisions or ideas they have been considering end up not mattering and this gets worse the longer you are slugged.
The survivor has all power to manipulate and use slugging as boon. It is the killer that has no power within slugging. that is why killer hook survivors because it gives them more control speed up death of said survivor but over-time… this is becoming less and less true with longer hook-states. hooks are becoming like slugging where killer is not getting much reward for hooking and they're wasting time hooking since it is time sink. survivor can leave other survivors on hooks for 70 seconds which is long time and than one for one trade. slugging is similar except it is 4 minutes long…. which might as well just be all gens done.
One thing you mentioned is definitely worth highlighting; some people playing killer are seeing less and less benefit from hooking compared to slugging. I play both roles, and I definitely see situations where slugging is more optimal against some teams and in some situations than hooking. I'll slug and start a chase for pressure, and there are games where I see that hooking someone might actually cost me the advantage. Sometimes I even slug to be nice to someone so they can stay in the game.
Having said that, I do feel in both survivor and killer matches that slugging sometimes feels extremely rude or even mean. And in those cases as killer, I'll put the survivor on a hook regardless of whether I could get more advantage from it (the last survivor should always get a chance at hatch).
I think the slugging meta that's resulted from those advantages is a problem though, with some people even using slugging builds. From a survivor's perspective, slugging does feel like a total loss of agency; the only thing I can really do is slowly try to hide so a teammate can pick me up. Being on a hook feels more engaging to me. I think it would be more fun if survivors could do some tiny actions that might end up being slightly useful (e.g. open a chest with a speed penalty so they could hope for a medkit or get a crawling speed boost at bleedout timer penalty).
But I do think you're right, it's a problem that slugging is looking more and more beneficial compared with hooking. It's something that should be addressed.
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@Lentara said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3818467#Comment_3818467
>You have to be the last survivor. Not last one standing or not on hook, but last survivor period. Hook stages are irrelevant; you wouldn't even get a chance to 4%. You're dead. Case closed.
I don't understand at all why this was said and where is the argument here? I have already repeated a hundred times that it is unfair and the OP in one click destroys a survivor who has never been on the hook. I, as a player who often remains the last one alive and who played so well that he has never been on the hook, do not deserve to be killed in this way. PERSONALLY I do not like this and that is why I would like to have the ability to prevent mori on myself. And this is a completely reasonable desire and if it offends you, then something is wrong with you.
>If you wanna give hatch, go ahead. But you're the killer. You cannot expect the devs to balance the game around NOT accomplishing their goal.Giving the hatch to the last survivor is not a must, but it is considered good manners. I mean, instead of making the game more about fun and less about tryharding, the developers are doing the opposite. Before 2020, the game was fun, few people really sweated in a game about survival and killing. But now we are here.
I mean, I agree with a lot of your sentiment, but I don't think something is wrong with the person you responded to for having a different opinion. Both of you have valid viewpoints :)
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3818244#Comment_3818244
i thought we don't like matches prolonged for no reason?
I think the match is fun for me as long as I'm getting to interact in some way. So if I wiggle off and get to run a bit longer, I enjoy that. And a couple times, I've ended up surviving as a result (e.g. breaking chase and hiding, getting hatch). Even as killer if someone wiggles off, I usually just think "really?" and go down them again. But I've probably lost a survivor or two like that also, though that stands out less than my own unlikely survivals :)
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@SuspiciousBrownie said:
You’re reading waaaay too far into a cool mechanic for finishing survivors. It’s horror game, maybe switch to a different game if you can’t handle being moried? I love to mori survivors and so do others so it’s not going anywhere.
In this particular thread it seems there's a lot of strong opinions. I think it's important to acknowledge that both you and op have valid thoughts. And we probably shouldn't just tell op to go play a different game. I guess that's what BHVR wants with these forums, to let everyone talk about the pros and cons of stuff so BHVR can see people's thoughts. Having said that, it's also totally valid that you enjoy being able to mori :)
I just wanted to make sure we don't belittle OP's opinion. glhfnm!
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@SuspiciousBrownie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3818355#Comment_3818355
In no scenario should you ever be able to fight against a mori. The mori is the the end result of you losing multiple fights throughout the match. And frankly would make zero sense lore wise. Realistically What is Sable going to do to stop Pyramid head from cutting her in half? Nothing. I could see it bring more fun but it’s only more fun for survivors.
The finisher mori doesn't require you to have lost multiple interactions throughout the match; just one will do it. And the new mori system mainly only benefits the person playing killer. All moris also bypass wiggling and saves for the hook state they're happening on. From a gameplay perspective, it seems pretty reasonable that the survivor should have some way of interacting with a mori so that both sides can interact with it, especially when the ability to do one is being added to the killer's basekit every match. And don't get me wrong, I play killer :)
Also, lorewise, if someone is attacking a person, it makes sense for them to fight back. I have personally been nearly killed in a situation before where it's shocking that I survived, but I promise I didn't just sit back and die.
Your perspective is definitely valid though, and I do agree that someone super strong like Pyramid Head or Meyers will have an advantage, but that's why the survivors have very weak means of fighting back :)
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@Lentara said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3818395#Comment_3818395
I already answered everything in the post itself. The killer gets a free kill. Why? Because mori eliminates the ability to save the survivor by blinding the killer, stun with a palette, sabotaging the hook, etc. What other arguments should I give?
Well said :)
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@MechWarrior3 said:
The way this post is worded is odd. "to kill the last survivor for free"
Its not free. The killer hooked you twice. Its endgame, and you're downed….What more do you want the killer to do? What difference does it make in that moment if the killer moried you versus slappin you on a rusty hook….I mean really….
Agreed that some of the wording is awkward. OP's opinions are definitely valid, but you're also right that the mori isn't free; the killer does have to get the last survivor down.
Just want to note that the finisher mori doesn't require the last survivor to have been hooked at all.
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@KoreWaPantsu said:
Mori is now hatred. The system is encouraging getting 4K and it's bad. Should the killer go for love and cuddles?
Are you two Sweet Baby Inc. employees?Thanks for the insults :)
Really though, there's already enough tunneling, proxy camping, and slugging for 4k even before the finisher mori was introduced.
I'm someone who plays killer and I think those tactics make the game worse. Being tunneled genuinely sucks, as does getting slugged for a 4k. I think we'd all benefit if players recognized that BHVR doesn't have a way to moderate those behaviors because sometimes they do come as natural game progression (e.g. if you happen to run into a survivor who just got off the hook in the early game). But there are people who deliberately use those tactics.
And tunneling, proxy camping, and slugging for 4k are considered boring, unfun, bm, or even toxic by a lot of the community. The game would be a better experience for a lot of people if players wouldn't engage in cheap tactics like those at the expense of other players. And I suspect some people will do those things to get their reward mori at the end of the match.
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@Xxjwaynexx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3817782#Comment_3817782
Lmao not bullied( I run Perkless every match for the shiggles) my guy just giving insight how it could be used among the survivors to make the killers life hell (a singular time is hilarious as well I have plenty of these squads that just happened to be the most recent). I invite bully squads if we're being honest it's more engaging than the gen jockies. 90 percent of the survivor community needs base kit unbreakable to be viable that's very Interesting. You did get something right though no mither is your answer don't want to be slugged run it, otherwise don't whine about being slugged. Even better how about not getting bullied by the killer and not losing chase twice to be slugged in the first place (see how idiotic this sounds). Thing is anything base kit like infinite unbreakable, DH 8 second ds will be weaponized more so than not. Just like this base kit mori which actually promotes slugging for a 4k.
I agree that basekit UB will get abused unless it's only applying in very specific situations. And even then, bully squads find ways to optimize every mechanic they can to be annoying the killer. Also agreed about them not really being a problem since most bully squads don't do enough gens. But if they bring one dedicated gen jockey, and make their plays right, they can make the game unenjoyable for the killer.
Also also agreed that basekit endgame mori wasn't thought through; it definitely incentives slugging for 4k, which much of the community funds either annoying or toxic.
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I fully agree with the sentiment here, though I don't want to be hostile to the devs:
Hi devs! Please know that some of us have stopped playing survivor or even spending money on the game because of this :) The game's continued success requires us to want to do those things. We can be friends! Devs + survs forever. BFFFs <3
Also, it seems like this system encourages getting 4k regardless of how unsportsmanlike you have to be to do it. Tunnel? Proxy camp? Slug for 4k? All ways to get to that juicy mori!
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That's fair. I agree that a way to 'wiggle' from a mori would make it more fun, even if only when you haven't been hooked :)
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@Marc_go_solo said:
I'm still wary about this. Hearing it's been scaled back still doesn't inspore much confidence (although if this means if everyone is on the ground then the insta-Mori occurs doesn't happen, then that's okay.
I'm also confused about the mixed messages that have been about. A while back I believe it was said one reason for change was because Mori's may be perceived by some as toxic in a way (I feel that came from a Q&A a while back). If that is so, why make it more common?
I'm still wary of this even now that it's live. I don't see how this isn't encouraging 4k at all costs (tunneling, camping, slugging for 4k all becoming normalized) to get the prize at the end of the match.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3818249#Comment_3818249
You're excuse for why you need to deny moris is due to DS. So would you rather killers force survivors sit on the ground 60 seconds instead of just executing the mori.
Well, not so much and excuse and more of an example. There are multiple perks and even a very rare wiggle free that can get someone free from being carried.
And I didn't say to deny the mori here, just thought survivors being able to fight against it would be fun. It would be like a wiggle mechanic for moris :)
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3818244#Comment_3818244
So you would much rather killer waits 60 seconds to hook the final survivor instead of just ending the game immediately.
I think I missed something. Why would the killer wait 60 seconds to hook the final survivor?
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3818231#Comment_3818231
The Mori is just a special way to kill off a survivor who was already dead. The only exception is Devour Hope.
If you really don't want to see the Mori animation, just d/c.
The survivor isn't already dead. They could have DS or some other perk that prevents them from getting hooked.
Also, dc is actively discouraged by BHVR.
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@Grimlet09 said:
no this defeats whole point of moris just let the mori happen.
This doesn't defeat the point of moris. The point of a mori is to watch your killer murder their victim. Why can't survivors fight back against a mori?
It would be fair to say the chase is the fight against a mori, but the same could be said of hooking, and survivors still get a tiny chance of escaping being hooked.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3817765#Comment_3817765
Yes it should benefit the killer, no different to if a killer hooks 4 players. If a killer can down all 4 how can that take 0 effort? They still have to go through the rigmarole of loops to hit the players twice each to down them. If they can achieve that they have worked for it, no different to hooking them. If everyone is on 2nd stage hook it auto sacrifice everyone it doesn't let people get unhooked for free it doesn't prolong the waiting with skill checks. Same should happen when slugged, after a certain time if all 4 (or all remaining survivors are slugged) then it should auto bleed them out. But the issue with that is many survivors want it to change in their favour rather than for the health of the game, they want yet another chance to win when they have clearly lost the match.
On these forums, there are a lot of discussions about winning or losing, but for me at least that's not the point with DBD. I don't know about for other people, but for me this game is about having fun.
When I play killer, I'll often (not always) give hatch because most survivor players like receiving it. I also like to avoid tunneling, camping, slugging for 4k, etc. so the other team can enjoy their match. (Obvious exception is bully squads.) And if I play a fair match and the survivors give me a 0k or a 1k, I'm usually happy with that as long as someone doesn't try to taunt in egc.
Ultimately, having your whole team slugged, or being slugged for a 4k isn't fun. Sure, for the killer, there's a little risk that survs will get picked up before all four are down, but slugging a whole team usually bypasses the need to down and hook everyone three times, making it feel like the survivor players have been cheated out of their chance to play the match. And slugging for 4k just isn't fun for either of the last two survivors. It's certainly valid to talk about winning a match, but I think fairness and enjoyment for all five players needs to be part of the discussion.
Having said that basket unbreakable could be fine in certain limited circumstances. All four players are slugged? Give unbreakable to all of them after some timeframe. Alternatively, after some amount of bleed out time, allow one recovery into the broken state, which could last until that survivor's next hook or next heal from the dying state.
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@Feneroe said:
How is every match being delayed half an hour by killer? The only way that can happen is if the survivors are hiding excessively and not doing their objective at all.
This is true, a half hour match should be impossible even if they did a slug race across the entire map :)
Maybe op was exaggerating for effect.
Now I kinda want to slug race across Badham…
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@sanees said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3817128#Comment_3817128
So survivors should get a free victory for not being able to do their job? many survivors already abuse the hatch by hiding for 30 minutes, now 3 survivors will do this
Not to mention how much it unfair to the killer, imagine reverse logic when all the survivors escape but the game just kills 2surv at the gate
I was mostly using hyperbole with the suggestion I made. However, I would definitely support Behavior devs punishing bm by making the game harder for people who engage in tunneling, camping, teabagging at all pallets, etc.
Also, that suggestion really isn't so bad. It wouldn't be a free victory, just suddenly tilt the match a bit to give survivors the chance they're supposed to get with hatch. And if the killer would do their job and put people on hooks, then no problem.
As far as the inverse, if survivors were teabagging at every pallet and then they just collapsed for being jerks, they'd deserve it.
I struggle to imagine someone being so competitive in real life nonprofessional games that they taunt their friends, or subject them to some hopeless situation just so they could have a 'bigger victory'. I'm very good at basketball, but I tone it down a notch when my opponent isn't doing great. There's no need for them to have a bad time.
Really, there's never a need to be rude or make people not enjoy a game just so you get a little more out of it. If bm were punishable, I'd go for it.
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I agree that hatch should be reworked. It should punish killers for slugging for 4k. Like if you leave someone sluggled for over a minute when there are only two survivors left, two hatches should open relatively close to the survivors. Not right next to them, but enough to encourage killers to put people on hooks and stop wasting time and making the game worse.
And I say this as someone who plays a decent amount of killer. I'll slug for 4k against bully squads, but I'd accept that nerf to my power to stop mindless slugging for 4k.
Edit: Yes... I typed sluggled up above and I'm standing by that.
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The perk you described sounds fun :)
Having said that, premonition is a shockingly powerful perk. While it has a cool down, it's directional, and with map awareness, you can use that to prerun from your gen, walk and hide with plenty of time to not be found, run toward the killer to take chase for a teammate on death hook, monitor the exit gates, check for proxy camping killers, and so many things. It basically gives you the ability to pick how you want things to happen. To be fair though, if I run Premonition, I swivel my camera all the time to know where the killer is.
Spine chill isn't very good. It tells you if the killer has line of sight and is pointed at you. Then you can try to hide, but by the time the killer has seen you, it can be too late. You can also take off running, but you might do that straight toward the killer if you don't see them yet. But, the bonus speed it gives is nice.
Anyway, fun perk idea!
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Whether or not the new mori system encourages more slugging, slugging for a 4k is bm. There's no need to make someone wait while you search for the next two minutes to get the last survivor. Also, why would someone take away the chance for hatch? It's intentionally rng based so the last survivor can have a chance at getting out.
On the other side, I know a lot of killers hate survivors teabagging, constant flashlight blinds, and bully squads.
I guess everyone has their own idea of what's bm or toxic, but for me that's anything that makes another player's experience worse than it has to be for no reason. And slugging for 4k puts the last player in a situation that the hatch is literally meant to let them have a chance of escaping.
But to be fair, I also think bm includes tunneling, camping, that w+d thing some jerks do as killer, teabagging, and especially waiting at the gate to teabag. I used to think bully squads were bm, but it turns out they're mostly easy matches since they try too hard to aggro the killer. Anyway, just my opinions :)
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Lights out is my favorite alternative mode. It feels a little like horror, which is absent in the main game. I'd support removing chaos shuffle from the lineup though.
Also agree with the comment above about Bubba... who didn't see that coming? One shot killers probably shouldn't exist in lights out.
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@TragicSolitude said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3815963#Comment_3815963
I suppose the main appeal of games is the ability to immerse yourself in a fantasy world you couldn't realistically explore in real life or via movies with your own agency... which is what makes games such a compelling media, and I guess one can't criticise someone for being more attached to that media...
Certainly, I love immersing and exploring the world and participating in the story. Games provide a unique method of interacting with world building that no other media can provide, and I love it.
Though it does also kinda bolster the argument that the game is successfully provided the horror experience it advertises... guess it's how's you look at it.
Personally, I stopped thinking DbD was a horror game pretty quickly upon playing it. Everyone will have a different opinion on that, but most things lose the horror experience with repetition and in DbD it takes a ridiculous number of hours to become semi-competent. I see it as a game of tag in a horror-ish costume.
DbD is also different from most horror games by being PvP. There's no story in the interaction between killer and survivor (and good horror needs story), so players apply other motivation to their opponent's behavior. Some people keep it in the perspective of, "It's just a game," but others see it as personal: tunneling is personally singling them out, a mori is overkill when the killer has already won, that kind of thing. If players could always remember games are just games and not to be taken seriously, there would be less friction in this community.
Should I be ashamed of not having seen Martyrs? It appears I have done acquired late night movie-ing to do 😁
Lol not shameful at all. It's foreign and something you have to look for rather than something you might stumble across. A decade or so ago, I had to get my copy on eBay and triple check it was the unrated version.
Well done classic effects are timeless, and still hold up decades later
Absolutely. RoboCop (1987), oh man, good stuff. Meanwhile, modern movies even use CGI blood instead of squibs. I'm always disappointed when I see CGI blood. It distracts me and takes me out of the movie.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3815995#Comment_3815995
You could be right that the video game avatar also seems like an extension of myself. That's
myavatar being murdered.Yeah, I've noticed people put a lot of themselves into their characters/avatars. In return, they also want characters to be more like them. People want characters to officially have the same look, the same personality. Then the negative of that is they take anything that happens to that character personally. It may feel like a more personal victory when they win, but it feels like an offensive personal attack when they lose. Double-edged sword. I don't think players realize this is what's happening, but you can see it in their reactions to practically everything.
I don't like movies where the closeup violence or gore seems to just be there for spectacle. And that's the thing that I really don't like about it. Ghostface's mori comes to mind.
I like all kinds of horror in general, but I'm a big fan of body horror. Like John Carpenter's The Thing, zombie movies, and infection-type movies like Splinter (2008). I love certain types of violence and gore, the good stuff has a real artistry to it.
Comparatively speaking, Ghostface's mori doesn't strike me as particularly violent or gory. Not in the wide spectrum of horror, anyway. It fits the personality BHVR wrote for him. Many survivors treat it as humorous and photobomb the mori if given the chance, which I think is a good way to treat it, as it is just a game.
Maybe my viewpoint is different from most. The only kill in a slasher movie I remember having any sort of effect on me is the Friday the 13th remake, the sleeping bag death. It makes me uneasy in a way watching someone get stabbed doesn't. If you've seen one slasher movie stabbing, you've seen them all.
watching it happen as I'm exiting a match seems less meaningful to see.
I'd say that in any PvP game with no actionable story, there's not much meaning to most things. I wouldn't really assign a meaning to Fatalities in Mortal Kombat other than as a visual spectacle. Players find it fun to watch. Does the person on the receiving end still find it enjoyable to get brutally torn apart for the millionth time when they put endless hours into the game? I really don't know. But in my mind, DbD's mori animation is basically the same thing. It's a finishing move done in a style that fits the game's genre/style. Dying on a hook is visually very boring, and turning into smoke is not only a tame but also quite uninteresting way to die in any mature piece of horror.
These are all fair thoughts :) And I think you're right about the horror thing. What's scary about running around a table for a while and then doing it again around a shelf? Actually, another unpopular opinion of mine is that I really liked lights out for that reason. It felt like horror a bit and escaping matches felt like the survival experience I thought the game would be when I bought it.
I know personally, I play the game as an escape, so I can forget stress (somewhat ironically) for a while. And having a character I picked out helps with that immersion. Also the DBD community is kind of great! If this were other gaming communities, I'd expect to get told to uninstall the game and go cry and play Stardew or something. People will say DBD is toxic, but my egc tends to be awesome and positive!
You're definitely right that in the scheme of modern media, moris are relatively tame. Even GoT was way bloodier. I guess for me when the match is ending for the player, there's no further possibility of horror in it, so watching the character get murdered seems like gratuitous violence I'm stuck having play out in the game, even if I can tab away from it.
Who knows though? Maybe I can convince myself to just swipe to a new desktop when it happens and start playing survivor again.
Anyway, thanks for sharing your viewpoints!
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@TragicSolitude said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3815727#Comment_3815727
My theory is that OP detaches themself from movies but doesn't have the same level of detachment from video games, or at least not from their chosen avatar in DbD, so it feels more personal.
Given how so many players take everything that happens in DbD personally… it's not surprising, but neither is it something that should be acted upon. Then again, maybe if I felt like my avatar was a recreation of my soul rather than seeing it as a fiction created of pixels and polygons, I'd feel spiritually violated when a killer sticks their weapon into my guts. I dunno.
So why do we like horror? Well human beings are intelligent and inquisitive, it's what allows us to discover, learn and grow. Being horrified is an interesting experience that is unique to you... you learn about yourself and your own fears through horror stories and media (duch as campfire stories), an experience that no one else can experience for you...
I really enjoyed Martyrs (the original, I still haven't bothered to sit through the remake), the way it holds a mirror up to the audience and asks "Why do we watch horror?"
I used to find Predator really disturbing and repulsive, and I even had to take regular breaks when I watched it the first time 21 years ago
John Carpenter's The Thing is the movie that scared me the most when I saw it when I was young. It's still one of my favorite movies of all time. God I miss special effects like those, CGI is the death of viscerally effective visuals.
That's deep; I like the thinking!
You could be right that the video game avatar also seems like an extension of myself. That's my avatar being murdered. But in movies, it's the character being killed.
But having said that, I don't like movies where the closeup violence or gore seems to just be there for spectacle. And that's the thing that I really don't like about it. Ghostface's mori comes to mind.
He stabs the person multiple times, then picks the victim up as their blood pours out through their mouth and takes a selfie with their dying body. That's not something I'd just pop open on youtube and watch repeatedly, but I'd watch a movie where that happens if the point is to see the tension where the characters have to escape that sort of thing. But watching it happen as I'm exiting a match seems less meaningful to see.
Anyway, well thought out! Big brain and stuff!
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@Gunshow said:
Yeah, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you're very much in the minority here…
Ultimately, you're opting to play an M-rated asymmetric horror game which has survivors routinely being hunted and brutally killed ad infinitum.
It's pretty unreasonable to expect devs to dedicate time to allowing you to disable mori animations just because you personally find it "disgusting". Especially given that, relatively speaking, the gore in basically all of them is particularly tame.
I definitely didn't suggest that BHVR dedicate time to something because I personally find it a certain way. Just wanted to point out that adding gore that doesn't serve an in-game purpose might not be great for everyone who enjoys the game, and if there were more people who feel that way, BHVR might care about it.
The suggestion isn't unreasonable. Thanks for the feedback though! ! As I said initially, I recognize I'm almost definitely in a minority of players :D
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@A_T_E said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/429352/i-hate-moris
"Gore is there to show how horrifying the scenario is, and I like that."
"Doesn't serve a purpose except to show somene getting murdered. That's disgusting to me."
So you like the spectacle of horror, but not being the subject of said horror?
Buddy, I don't think this game is for you.
I will probably only play Killer
There's the solution. If you like gore, but not being on the bad end of it, be Killer. Else, tough luck.
Skipping the animation, when you're the last Victim anyways; I see that making sense, as well as what @MrMori says about skipping hook. Speeds up the end to get into another match, when it's already a done deal.
But I want to raise the question; what about the Mori animation, when you aren't the last? Do you want that skipped, too? Is that less horrible, because now it becomes a spectacle to your fellow Victims, and no longer "ending the match" with it?
I don't mind gore in horror when it serves a purpose, like if I'm watching a movie where people get flayed (e.g. TCM) I'm fine with it because it highlights the horror of the situation. But I don't feel like mori animations in DBD serve a similar purpose. So then moris just show a murder happening, which doesn't really feel good for me.
It's less about being the subject of the horror, more about the gore itself. You nailed the core of it though. I don't like moris at any time. But with the update, moris can be expected to happen in a large fraction of games.
In the past, I'd just disconnect during them or swipe my screen away. Now I'd expect to have to do it very often. Skipping all mori animations would work for me. Seems like it shouldn't be hard to implement, but who knows with the spaghetti code. Still, depends on if there's enough people like me for BHVR to want to do it :)
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This is awesome! For serious!
Might have to limit it to receiving one award from any player to prevent exploits. And/or maybe limit giving the award from your account a certain number of time per month or something to prevent a culture of being expected to give a thumbs up.
But for real should be done. 12/10 would boop the snoot!
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@DrD0000M said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3815500#Comment_3815500
Yeah and some cosmetics have custom moris as well but that's the point I want to make. This game lacks animations.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3815499#Comment_3815499
You don't like ghostface?
Ghostface is fun! And I think his mori is funny :) But I also don't like watching it (as I'm the op who didn't like moris).
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@DrD0000M said:
What I find lame about moris is the fact that it's mostly 1 animation besides pyramid head and vecna iirc.
lol
If I did like moris, I'd say ghostface's would be pretty awesome! But you know, frownyface…
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Agreed.
As someone who plays killer, I think slugging for 4k, tunneling, and proxy camping are all problems that need to get fixed. They all make the game not fun for the targeted survivor(s). Maybe it's not true for other people, but this update is going to make the game worse for me in a lot of my survivor matches (I play about 70:30 survivor:killer).
I also don't like moris in general, and I refuse to use them as killer. I get that it's a horror game, but watching some of the moris is creepy af. I really don't want to see it start happening every match. For now, I've stopped playing survivor.