smurf
smurf
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@radiantHero23 said:
I'm sorry you had to experience that. A lot of weird people play this game.
My advice: don't think too much about it. Thankfully most people dont play that way.
Enjoy the rest of your day and have a 👉🐽
👉🐽
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But the hound is snuggly to play with!
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@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3849843#Comment_3849843
working with the killer is a real problem if you play solo
Haha! A few days ago I had two last survivors each trying to get me to sacrifice the other, shaking their heads, pointing and nodding. It was great. But yeah, also awful if someone just tries to sell out their teammates.
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I'll gladly stop quoting you so you stop getting pings SidneysBane; no need for hostilities. Maybe we'll cross paths later in threads where we'll agree more :D
I do disagree about what you said in that last message, but I'll refrain from more talking points so we can stop this debate in a friendly way. Enjoy your games!
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3849735#Comment_3849735
This is true but nobody wants to admit it.
And also hey smurf, I'm sure if you search you'll notice a LARGE amount of posts asking for Moris to be more useful, keeping the Iri Mori, and allowing the basekit Mori to exist as a finisher. Besides, the Devs wanted this forever. They have been trying to put this in the game forever.
Like it or not it's not going anywhere no matter how many people complain, because not only did several people want this, the DEVS want this.
I heard you the first time you said people wanted it. And some people definitely did want it. Some people definitely didn't. We've established this.
But I still don't see any argument for why it's not having a negative impact on the game. It's worth discussing and not just writing it off by vaguely saying 'people want this'.
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3849226#Comment_3849226
Killers have literally always slugged for 4ks. Always. The Finisher Mori doesn't change that.
Nobody owes you hatch or an escape. Finisher Mori isn't an issue the way generator rush perks aren't an issue or the exit gates aren't an issue. It's part of the game. If you don't like that, you don't need to play, but don't ruin it for everyone else.Um... I didn't say anyone owes anyone else a hatch or gate escape or that slugging for 4k wasn't an issue before.
Also, I'm not seeing any lucid arguments about why it's not an issue in light of the things that have been mentioned. Do you have some reasons why you think this?
Since I'm asking that, I'll go ahead and write my thinking again for reference: The finisher mori fills a role that's very similar to teabagging at the gate. But unlike the case of teabagging, the survivor is forced to watch their opponent show off. And it encourages slugging for the 4k, which is a very unsportsmanlike behavior. It also gives the killer a basekit ability to deny survivor perk abilities at the endgame and forces the target to watch the victory animation instead. Sounds pretty negative to me. My personal experience is also that the finisher mori is making the presence of moris more annoying in general.
Also, why are you mentioning that the gates aren't an issue? Of course they're not. Do you mean teabagging at the gate? That really is a sportsmanship issue that I think should be addressed.
Saying the finisher mori is just part of the game is a little disingenuous since it wasn't part of the game until very recently. Such a statement ignores that the change could be having a negative impact.
You also indicated that you advocated for it very strongly. But a large section of the community did not want to revisit the finisher mori. In any case, we're all free to express what we think makes the game better or worse. Others are free to advocate for the removal of this feature if we find it to be extremely toxic. And you're free to express your opinion, but maybe let's not go around telling each other not to play the game.
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3849102#Comment_3849102
Tell me, why do you believe Killers aren't allowed to have the cool thing?
There's no pretending. The community fought for and wanted this. The devs want this. It's not going to go away. This is definitely staying, if the Devs want to fix slugging they need to find another way. There's nothing wrong with the finisher Mori itself, it's just an animation, but the real issue is the rise in slugging FOR the finisher Mori. So the issue isn't the Finisher Mori, it's slugging.
I want the option to always be there for me to let me have the Mori, or choose mercy by giving hatch. And yes, I do still give people the hatch.The finisher mori is definitely an issue on its own. It's less a cool thing and more a poorly thought out thing that has almost exclusively negative impacts.
It encourages slugging for 4k, takes away the ability of survivors to make dramatic endgame escapes by wiggling off, acts as a way to show off the killer's victory in the same way as teabagging at gate, and even has led to new ways to cap off toxic endgame behaviors where some killers will wait out a bleedout timer then mori at the last second.
It's been extremely negative with no real benefits except that some people think it's cool to look at. Also, I'd say the community didn't fight for and want this. A subset of the community wanted it, but a lot of the community expressed that they didn't want to try this nonsense again after the previous finisher mori disaster. And now that it's here, a lot of people still don't want it.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3849153#Comment_3849153
What does this mean then?
Its not toxic to escape with 4 people, but it is sweaty to slug for the 4k. Nothing to discuss here unless you have no morals.Slugging for 4k is different than getting a 4k for real.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3849136#Comment_3849136
So you are biased then, because the killer going for the 4 kills is toxic, but the survivors going for the 4 escapes is not. That is pure bias, plain and simple.
That's not what that person said.
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@JumpscareMyers said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/432139/remove-the-final-mori
I fail to see how this is a problem because no one complained whenever killers did the exact same thing back when they had to bring a cypress mori (myself included as i would bring one almost every match), but now that it's a basekit feature "OH then it's BAAAD"
Seriously, you're complaining about the fact that the killer is being rewarded for playing well, and here we are having survivors looking for another second chance for a way out by adding basekit unbreakable, my brother in christ you already lost who cares if the killer slugs you for the mori just watch a video while you wait you sound like a dumbass.
Really, moris seemed alright in the past when they were more rare, but now they can be expected pretty frequently and are just becoming annoying.
From my perspective, it really doesn't feel like the killer is being rewarded, but instead they're getting to punish the survivors and show off once they have the survivor down.
Either way, I don't think we should be calling people names.
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@Seph64 said:
So it's okay for survivors to BM at the exit gate, but a killer standing over you waiting for the cool animation and suddenly "OMG HOW DARE YOU BM"…lol
I'd argue that survivors teabagging at the gate should be discouraged also. But that's not a reason to enable the killer to force the last survivor watch them a victory animation once they've sacrificed all three of the last survivor's teammates. That seems more like bad sportsmanship than 'finishing a game well played,' much like a version of teabagging at the gate but where one player is forced to watch the 'winner' showing off.
It's also often associated with slugging for 4k, making it feel like the killer just trying to rub the bad manners in.
Edit: changed 'run' to 'rub'
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3848845#Comment_3848845
It's not a victory animation. Don't be ridiculous. Survs have their own version of it too - squatting repeatedly on the hatch or in exit gates. It's not one side. One side just happens to have an unskippable cutscene version.
It's just not the "rub it in" equivalent you think it is, and if it's a problem then BHVR can fix it by giving us an option to skip it so only the Killer sees it. There. Now everyone's happy.
It really is a victory animation though; it can only be done when the killer has defeated all four survivors.
Either way, I think you're right that if there were an option for survivors to choose whether they want to see it, that could alleviate the issue of it appearing to be a sort of 'rub it in' scenario.
There is still the issue that it nevertheless encourages slugging for 4k, but that could be handled by addressing slugging for 4k.
As a side note, I think teabagging at the gate or hatch should be handled too. But I see that as somewhat less problematic since the killer isn't forced into an animation where they watch the survivor show off their escape.
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3848796#Comment_3848796
I really honestly, no offense, do not think the finisher Mori is the issue and that if slugging is the problem, we need to address that.
I want the Finisher Mori to stay, I and others fought HARD for that on Reddit, the official Discord, etc. even before I started posting here. There's really no reason it shouldn't stay, just do something else about slugging. Is it really that big an issue we see a different death animation?
Plus, there's zero chance it's being removed. They PTBed it, tested it, and reworked the Moris for it, and they're not about to just undo all that hard work and code. The Devs wanted this. The community basically wanted this. Now that we have it, it complains, but we wanted this and we got it.
The issue is not and never has been Moris. It's always been the way a win is counted in DBD, and always been the way Killers keep being encouraged to slug by making hooks less and less appealing for a variety of reasons. Expect if STB gets popular, slugging to skyrocket more.
I very much think it's an issue that players on either side would be given a victory animation that they can force the other side to watch. There's enough toxicity in the game already without such a feature. It's really gotten to a point with it where I see it as being more toxic than teabagging at the gate.
And while slugging isn't the issue, it doesn't help that it's often accompanied by and even encourages slugging for 4k. It also has given killers a basekit ability that negates survivor perks in the endgame. It's like nobody thought it through. Honestly, I can't believe BHVR thought it was a good idea, and I'd be glad to fight hard to get it removed.
Removing it should be trivial too. There's almost certainly an 'if' statement in the code for each time a survivor gets downed, and when its parameters are met, the finisher mori is enabled. Just remove that, or even bypass it by hardcoding one of the parameters out.
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
They should never remove this, let Killers have things. Killers are allowed to have things. Killers are allowed to dominate in matches just as Survivors can.
The finisher Mori isn't why people slug more and it's not why people stopped giving hatch; that was a rarity even before this for about a half a year.
The game is horror-themed. Survivors in a horror movie are intended to die and only SOME get out, or all die. That is what you're supposed to be paying for and it's what the Devs have finally, finally achieved after 8 years of nonsense.
Let. Killers. Have. Things.
There was definitely a sharp cutoff in instances where I saw myself or others be given hatch or a gate since the finisher mori was introduced.
Killers have plenty of things too :)
We can use our powers to dominate survivors, teleport around the map (or across pallets), throw survivors into stuff, guard the basement chest, give them fun party hats, and literally teabag them back. Killers have so many more things than survivors.
I play killer and enjoy giving my survivors a good match, and I'll even do a 4k if I win a hatch race and am feeling like it's warranted. But I definitely won't be forcing someone to watch some animation celebrating how I sacrificed the other three members of their team and then got them too. Seems to me like an overall negative thing for the community.
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
Brother did you know at least half of the time, those slugs, tunnels, and camps are unintentional or actually just reactions to Survivor actions?
This is interesting actually, since all of us only have our own experience to go on. As killer, I essentially never do these things, except occasionally against a bully squad (and not even typically against them). But as survivor, I don't do anything to warrant these behaviors; no teabagging, no annoying flashlight aggro. I don't even run Flashbang that often and I typically wait for some time to let the killer get away before going for unhooks. Nevertheless, it astonishes me how often killers will run straight back to any unhook they can.
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
While I do agree there are some pretty scummy players at present, survivors do a lot to make that playstyle work even more.
If a killer is proxy camping, do gens and if you have to, trade hooks at the very last second possible. Run Off the Record, Dead Hard , DS and Reassurance (or any of these perks in your build OTR is incredibly strong) and STOP HOVERING AROUND A CAMPED SURVIVOR.
I cant count the number of times I would have got anti camp and was ready to lead a tunnelling killer into a world of misery with an OTR into DS to reset deep wound followed by DH combo… only for my team mates to be hovering the hook so I never get anti camp.
At the very least if you don't want to change perk builds, DO GENS. I hate killers that play like that but survivors make it much more worthwhile for them to resort to this.
This is true. In solo queue, the teammates will almost never make the most of a killer who's fully committed to proxy camping. Bigger issue is high mobility killers who can head straight back to hook and tunnel again in seconds.
And I tend to agree to a large extent with OP. There are a lot of killers who rely on just running back to hook and tunneling someone if they're not too far from the unhook. Sacrificing a little gen pressure to get someone on second hook ASAP doesn't take much skill if they went down for their first hook reasonably fast and didn't even heal yet.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3848593#Comment_3848593
I'm a 90/10 survivor main, mostly because of hearing and vision problems making killer a much harder role. When I do play killer, its often very late night/early morning for my area, so I rarely get opponents as casual. And since I don't get 4ks very often, more often than not there will be at least one player who refuses to win gracefully. Their teammates usually join in when they know they are untouchable. End game chat/console messages are also a factor but obviously that affects either side and depends on platform.
But yeah, there is a metric ton of ego in this game's community. People regularly being disrespectful regardless of winning or losing. No two players are the same, but there are certain patterns that definitely exist.
That's unfortunate. I've only ever teabagged at gate in one match. The killer was slugging for 4k and kept doing it after I safely picked up my downed teammate multiple times. It was just ridiculous. Well over four minutes of nonsense.
Sorry you have to put up with that too. I guess I probably see it less because I don't give my survivors a chance to feel safe at the gate unless we're already farming. And then we can play red light green light!
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3848563#Comment_3848563
While your statement about not being able to avoid the mori is technically correct, I think people downplay the way killers can "avoid" the survivors refusing to leave and continuing to taunt. Yes, the killer can swat them out, but that can be up to 8 hits and blade wipes. Then you also have things like heal teching to save survivors who don't even position properly to fall out of bounds as they land. The EGC timer is half the duration of the bleed out one, yet it also can be doubled (therefore equal in duration) when someone is down, on a hook, or in a cage.
So no they are not equal in that regard, but the difference can be much smaller than people realize.
This is interesting. It's been a long time since I've seen multiple survivors teabagging in the exit gate at once. Do you see this often?
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3848527#Comment_3848527
feeling like the killer just showing off and saying "Look, I won and now you have to watch me do this.
Almost sounds like how killers have been complaining about safe tbagging in the exit gates and being forced to swat them out. Not going to get much sympathy from the killer community with that one. Both sides have always and (unfortunately) will always have ways to BM and waste other players' time.
In all honesty, I'd love to see the data for how much/little hatch escapes have changed since the introduction of the finisher mori. Bad experiences tend to stand out more than good ones (especially when trying to form a hypothesis) so it would be interesting to see how much people are over/under representing the change's impact on 4ks.
Your assessment is definitely not wrong :/
Honestly though, I play a decent amount as killer and almost never get teabagged at gate anymore. Maybe it's that my playstyles don't lead to survivors gloating? But seems to not really happen now. It could be a combination of having very few matches where more than one survivor is around once a gate gets opened, or that if I'm not actively in chase as I approach the gate, I'll do one of two things: (i) approach from the side to see if I can catch someone off-guard, or (ii) go to a place where the survivor(s) can see me and meme at them.
But as survivor, there's no way around the endgame mori. You're right that the numbers can giveore info. Anecdotally though, I don't even remember the last time I was given hatch. Feels like it doesn't happen anymore.
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I won't comment on all of this, but you're totally right about following the killer around with a flashlight. A survivor will get off a gen, then waste time chasing the killer, typically to get one save at most against a talented killer. Generally, those people will give the killer two downs instead of one.
As killer, I kinda laugh when I see multiple flashlights in the lobby. As a side note, flashlights have very little overall effectiveness except in the hands of extremely strong loopers. If the killer has headphones, they can often follow footsteps, and can easily follow pain noises once a survivor is injured. And though I don't generally approve of tunneling, if a survivor does manage to do more than one or two flashy saves, I'm not really going to be surprised if they're the first out...
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Absolutely agreed. The game is much less rewarding on average as a result of the finisher mori.
It literally incentivises slugging for 4k, and it's really starting to feel like the killer equivalent of teabagging at the gate in the sense that once some killers have won the game, they then go out of their way, slugging for 4k, waiting for others to die on hook, waiting out bleedout timers until there's just one left, all to get the free mori. Then, once they've already got every other survivor out, the finisher mori is feeling like the killer just showing off and saying "Look, I won and now you have to watch me do this."
This is all on top of the fact that the finisher mori gives all killers a basekit ability that removes last-chance perks and abilities that could on rare-occasion lead to a dramatic escape. And now I also almost never see any killer other than myself give hatch or a gate. This mechanic has had a very negative impact on my experience.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3847688#Comment_3847688
No, they're basically the same, because you're getting 4 kills. The bunch of time wouldn't be wasted if hatch didn't exist as a free insta-escape for whichever survivor happened to be the last alive. I think the hatch being in the game so long, and people accepting it as normal, has warped your minds. If you would just imagine a game without hatch, suddenly the killer trying to get 4 kills is just normal, and he's doing what he has to do to get it. But that's exactly what's happening now, and y'all won't accept it because you're letting hatch skew what the end of a match ought to be. It's such a an uninteresting and bothersome mechanic. And it may be less BP to have someone bleed out, but it's more BP to get the 4th sacrifice. You see the logic flaw?
Those are definitely different things. Getting a 4k can happen regardless of whether you slug to do it. It's just that with hatch, the last survivor has a fair chance to escape. If the killer gets the last survivor during hatch race, the last survivor at least had a reason to play the endgame. But if the killer slugs for 4k, the game might as well be over as soon as the third survivor goes down.
The difference is whether the killer wants to say to the last survivor "You don't get to have a reason to keep playing now." Hatch makes the game remain interesting even when we're chasing the last survivor. And it's not like the game is worse if the last survivor gets out; the killer has still nominally 'won' the match. I don't think I did a better job because I made the last survivor get a worse outcome in a hopeless situation.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843393#Comment_3843393
The problem is the hatch mechanic itself. In order to secure the 4k without slugging the killer has to:
- Already "Win the match" by not having the survivors escape
- Find the hatch before the survivor
- Find the survivor before they can open the gate.
The killer has to "win" 3 times to get the 4k, whereas the 4th survivor only has to "win" once.
A BETTER mechanic that would showcase the skill on both sides, would be that, once the 3rd survivor dies on the hook, both the killer and the final survivor are teleported to a special zone, similar to ones they have done for the halloween event. This zone is the same layout every single time. The goal is the survivor needs to "survive" for some amount of time, lets say 1 minute. If they last for 1 minute, then they get to escape. If they get downed by the killer, then the killer automatically goes into the match ending mori.
Hatch isn't a problem; it's actually helping a lot with the flow of the endgame. When not intentionally circumvented, it prevents a long, boring game of hide-and-seek where the last survivor has almost no chance of escape. The existence of hatch provides a reason for the last survivor to attempt to finish the match. Without it, the game might as well just end once the third survivor is sacrificed if there's at least one whole gen left to do.
And if someone is concerned with 'winning', they already have the 'win' once they have a 3k according to the way MMR works. And the killer should be winning hatch race most of the time, so the fourth kill should be available in most of those cases anyway.
Also, if we make the argument that the killer has to win three times to get a 4k, we should probably also be sure to break down all the wins and losses people have to get during the game. The survivors have to win five generators, and usually need to win multiple unhooks, after which, they need to win at least one exit gate. That is, unless a survivor wins a bunch of tiles in chase so that nobody ever has to get unhooked. But you're right, the killer has to win multiple chases, and win nine hooks before they can try to win the hatch race and then win the exit gate so they can win their 4k. I'm clearly being a little facetious here, but the point is that these are all tasks that have to be done each game and are all fairly balanced when added up together.
In the end though, the only reason people slug for 4k is to get an extremely easy last kill, even though doing it gives very little reward. Meanwhile the last survivor is forced into a nearly impossible situation while the third survivor is forced to wait during some long drawn-out game of hide-and-seek. Hatch goes a long way toward making the endgame reasonable for both sides, but slugging for 4k bypasses that and needs to be addressed. Otherwise, multiple players in each slug for 4k will have to wait through some ridiculous game of hide-and-seek where the outcome is that the killer is nearly guaranteed to win, all to satisfy the ego of the person slugging for 4k.
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@TheSableSimp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3847862#Comment_3847862
I'll cashapp you $100 if you can win 10 games in a row as Ghostface without tunneling
10 games in a row shouldn't be possible in most cases with most killers. If you use tunneling and get 10 wins in a row with Ghostie, it kinda proves the point that tunneling is unreasonable.
Edit: changed typo that said '10 kills in a row' to '10 wins in a row'.
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@TheSableSimp said:
Stupid idea that people who don't play killer (or play killer in low MMR) say because they don't realize how much that would break the game.
Slugging is something that has to be done sometimes. Same with tunneling and camping. Sometimes you have to do these things if you wanna win.
Anyone who plays killer in high MMR knows this.
Casual players live in a fantasy world where they tell themselves "only trash killers tunnel😡" etc. When in reality it's just a part of the game. As killer, you have to do these things sometimes, unless you're okay with losing most of your games.
Guess what though? Don't like being slugged? There's perks for that. Don't like being tunneled? There's perks for that.
Tunneling and camping do not have to be done. I 'win' most of my killer matches and don't camp or tunnel.
And if you're thinking that I must be low MMR because that can't be, there are also streamers presumably better than me who dominate every match as killer. The matchmaking is designed so the killer should be getting 3k or higher more than they get 1k or 0k. This need for tunneling and camping is a myth.
Also, tunneling and camping are objectively hostile toward the targeted player since they keep them from participating in the game except to be chased non-stop. It can make people wonder why they even play the game. These tactics are unnecessary, 'bad manners' toward their targets, and if done efficiently can put people at MMR higher than is appropriate for their skill level. When that happens, it often leads people to believe these tactics are necessary.
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I'd like to see the endgame mori just be removed. It's starting to feel like a taunt where the killer is just shoving their 'win' in your face and forcing you to watch. It really is beginning to feel like getting teabagged at the gate, but from the survivor side. It feels like the killer is saying 'Hey, I won. You have to watch me show off now.'
And to top that off, It's had exactly the effect you mentioned. I've seen almost no killer giving hatch or gate aside from myself since the update was released. Instead, I've seen killers really go out of their way to get their mori. It also gives the killer a way to take away some abilities from survivors who could otherwise have escaped on rare occasions as a result. I don't think we need a give up option, we need the finisher mori gone.
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Slugging for 4k is generally pretty abusive since it creates a nearly hopeless situation for the last survivor standing and forces the third survivor to just wait on the ground while some drawn-out game of hide-and-seek takes place. Hatch was literally implemented to prevent that long boring ending and is meant to give the last survivor a reason to keep playing. Slugging for 4k is like saying to the last two survivors "You don't deserve to have fun." I'd say it shouldn't be done at all, even for adepts, unless the squad was actively harassing the killer. If a bully squad is involved, they can get the same treatment they give. Otherwise, it's a very toxic move.
Giving an escape to the last survivor shouldn't be expected, but should probably be appreciated if it happens. I often give hatch or gate, but there should be some feeling that the last sacrifice can still happen. So I'd say this is a matter of just deciding what you feel like at endgame.
I think it's very weird to give the killer a free kill though. As killer, I've only ever accepted them if I'm farming and can't get the survivors to do gens. In my mind, the difference is due to the nature of the game. As killer, I'm trying to get sacrifices, but I'm essentially invincible. The only thing the survivors can do to me is escape. In that scenario, I still got to play the game, probably got multiple hooks, and on very rare occasions, the survivors still give me a 0k. No big deal; it's not like I got sacrificed. But for a survivor, giving them hatch or carrying them to a gate can really make the match more rewarding since the options are get sacrificed or escape. The outcome is kind of binary for them. So personally, that perception of roles and outcomes is what gives me that perspective. I'm sure others are different.
I also wouldn't say there's a 'survivor rulebook.' There are just some things that are seriously unbalanced and make the game worse for people, and the killer is usually more able to do things that fit that description than survivors. I mean, if I feel like tunneling someone out, they're practically guaranteed to not escape. That can easily make someone wonder why they even played the match.
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@Ghostofsnow said:
statistics say killers face duo/solo que players 80% of the time and vast majority of bigger groups and just friends goofing off. info can be strong but you arent facing a real sweat squad like 1/200+ games.
I don't know; when I go on a killer kick for a week or two, I'll find myself up against what appears to be swf after swf. That assessment could just be wrong and high level survivors are just bringing items, perks, and offerings that appear to be coordinated along with frequent coordinated outfits. Some of those can also definitely just be duos or luck too.
There are also times when it's confirmed that certain groups are swfs because you face the exact same 4-person group multiple times in the same night. Anyway, I suspect that at some point, this does start to happen more frequently, though of course I could just be judging my survivors wrong :)
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I like how 2v8 made it less likely to get endgame moried, and that I could farm items.
Other than that, I'm thankful it's gone. I really don't like how it takes away the feel of the main game in favor of a chaotic arcade-like mess.
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@SuspiciousBrownie said:
I personally don't really care if a survivor gives up immediately its been happening to me almost every other game for years because people really don't like being hit by cross map hatchets. I continue to play the game like normal and try to put them out of their misery quickly. Farming is super boring to me though so I very rarely ever do it.
But if you're hunty and you farm with the survivors, they could run sideways across the inside of the exit gate area to make a shooting gallery for you!
Edit: Oh, and also, my 'go next policy' depends on how I'm feeling. I'll usually slug the fool trying to go next without disconnecting. If they self-sacrifice on hook, I'll take it easy at least for a while. Maybe go on a hunt for novelties around the map. That's how I found a bag with Laurie's name on it! Then if they do an extra gen or two, I'll think about picking the match up there; sometimes I'll farm instead.
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That's unfortunate. If someone starts the match injured, I often take a quick stop in the basement after my first chase, and that's given me some free hooks a number of times. Running No Mither makes the permanent broken status less awful, but I think the risk/reward for invocatuons isn't good enough for most players since the broken status is so crippling. If they could be done together, they might be strong enough. I really thought the intention was that they would be done together.
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@vladspellbinder said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3844942#Comment_3844942
I've said over, and over again NO. Base-kit Unbreakable is TOO STRONG and was shot down when the developers themselves proposed it for good reason. Base-kit Unbreakable would make slugging a really bad option, even if you only restricted it to once per Survivor. The goal isn't to remove slugging, it is to make slugging more bearable for the Survivor being slugged and to limit "slug the second to last to find the last" game extension. Being able to bleed out faster on demand is a good middle ground that doesn't help the Survivor win but allows them to move on to the next game faster.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3844952#Comment_3844952
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3844980#Comment_3844980
Good luck actually coding such a thing. It has too many "What-ifs" and operant conditions. Does the Hatch despawn if the slug is picked up in some manner? Does the Hatch close and lock and trigger end game collapse if one of the Survivors goes through it, trapping the other? Does it stay open to potentially allow both out?
If the Hatch spawns right next to the slug and the Killer closes it we've got E.G.C. happening so that'd be something at least.
It's a nice idea in theory but in practice it'd probably be too finicky.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3844993#Comment_3844993
Killers are already four person slugging, so not much would change. If what makes a person going from playing how they currently play to full team slugging or slugging second-to-last is that the Survivors are no longer as inconvenienced as before that's still a win for the Survivor not being as inconvenienced.
We'd probably see less four person slugging over all, because I've asked people why they do it and the general response was one of two things; either "To shut down most of Survivor Perks I see most often" or "To waste as much of your time as possible and make your experience as ######### as I can".
Some people be spiteful little witches with a b. These later people where typically upset when people disconnected because while they'd be locked out of next game for a bit they were not in the current game suffering on the ground. That was back when I used to not have cross-play on and could still get games and actually use end game chat but it seems things haven't changed much in the "Every so often you get a really nasty match" but I have seen a larger increase in second-to-last slugging, especially for a Mori, than before.
Speaking of for second-to-last slugging, I would expect it to not change much, since the way I could see the "Bleed Out" actually being implemented would still give more time to find the last Survivor over hooking someone.
That shouldn't be so hard to code. My suspicion is that when an in-game event (e.g. survivor is hooked, killer misses a swing, survivor is slugged) occurs, a sequence of 'if' statements are checked in the code. All that should need to happen is to put an if that triggers when a survivor is slugged and two survivors are already sacrificed. If that condition is met, start a timer for 15 seconds, at the end of which another check is made that opens the hatch if the third survivor is not hooked and no chase is active.
Hatch can just remain open at that point, enabling the start of hatch race, which can be won by either the slug, the last survivor standing, or the killer. As soon as a survivor enters hatch or killer closes it, lock hatch and trigger egc. In this scenario, hatch race isn't circumvented by slugging for 4k, and the killer then has to worry about either the slug or last survivor getting it. I'd actually go a step further and give the slug basekit Left Behind for as long as they remain slugged so that the killer is heavily disincentived to slug the third survivor.
Since egc triggers as soon as anyone closes hatch (by killer closing it or one survivor escaping), the game can only become a four minute hide and seek match if the killer slugs for 4k and downs the last survivor.
The killer could go look for hatch upon downing the third survivor and hope to trigger egc, but then they risk the slug being picked up and both survivors escaping. They could also camp the slug, but then the hatch is likely to be taken by the fourth survivor. The best play seems to be to be to put the third on hook and start hatch race. I'm not seeing too many ways how it would be hard to code or lead to weird plays.
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@THE_Crazy_Hyena said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843858#Comment_3843858
I made a big comment about MMR last month, where the game feels like it has flipped a switch, and you are suddenly matched against comp level players.
Referring to a video that was posted on Youtube by a certain Choy. Picture a player who just got out of the "let's say Silver tier", and hit the treshold of the "gold tier" at around 1400 ELO. The matchmaking algorithm will then only match you against other players within this tier, that ranges from 1400 ELO, all the way up to 2100 ELO, or the best players in the game. The longer the matchmaking drags out, the more likely you are to go up against players that are WAY above your skill-level.
These players are often 4-man SWF's with full meta builds, powerful items and add-ons, and will absolutely gen-rush you to hell and back. On the flipside, if you as a soloQ survivor search for a match, you will be matched with other players around your own skill level, but your opponent will be picked from the tier which the highest rated player is in. This often ends in a very one-sided game that ends at 4-5 gens. And I am talking about versing players that probably has between 5k and 15k hours in the game, while you on the other hand only having maybe 1000 hours at best.Personally, I think actual ranks needs to return, or a better matchmaking system that also takes player hours into account.
That's fair. I don't like MMR brackets for that reason. Instead, I think there should be only a continuous MMR spectrum with a special lower cutoff for beginners. That way people can't cross discrete boundaries into territories where they're strictly the lowest ranking in that bracket.
My understanding is that BHVR already has a special beginner bracket that people can't descend back into, and that's meant to give absolute beginners a chance to learn a little in the game before any chance of being paired with players who have any idea what they're doing.
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@vBlossom_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3844980#Comment_3844980
I also think that this whole "Bleed out"/ "Concede" option would be highly exploited by the killers - they would play as nasty as possible and slug even more, because such options would give even easier 4ks.
Understood. I was agreeing with your suggestion! If hatch spawns as soon as the third survivor is eliminated or slugged, then slugging for 4k to prevent hatch would be completely eliminated.
I think it would need some caveats though. Killers need to be incentivised to put the third survivor on hook and play the remaining game as normal. If hatch opens immediately upon the third survivor being slugged, the killer's best play would be to slug the third and immediately go hunt for hatch and/or the fourth survivor.
I'd say that if the third survivor is slugged for more than 15 seconds without being picked up and no other survivor being in chase, then hatch could open. That would mean slugging for 4k would be likely to give the last survivor hatch race, and the slugged survivor could even be able to crawl to it, triggering egc. That might be enough to make killers prefer to camp the hook of the third survivor, which is almost an expected play. That gives options to the last survivor, whereas in a slug for 4k, the last survivor only has nearly hopeless options: hide for several minutes or pick up the slug so the killer can do it again.
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@vBlossom_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/433116/can-we-please-get-a-bleed-out-option
I think hatch should be spawned when last survivor is downed by the killer, because right now due to whole this situation with slugging hatch is useless.
Actually, this is a really good idea. So if the third survivor goes down or is eliminated, hatch opens. Then slugging for 4k might be completely eliminated.
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Also boop!
Also, imagine pig hats in 2v8. Pig + Blight team feels like heads would pop.
But also no more 2v8 please :)
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:(
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Agreed. 2v8 makes the gameplay less interesting, and the queue times for killer just prevent me from playing killer.
Also, who wants to be chased by two killers at once? And the mode is so chaotic that it gets rid of the tension and feel of DbD.
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I'd like to see the finisher mori removed. I generally dislike moris and their increased frequency now that this exists makes me enjoy the game much less. I'm now even much less inclined to spend money on the game and try not to spend whenever possible.
The mechanic has also encouraged a lot of negative behaviors since it rewards getting a 4k regardless of the means used to do it. After the update, I observed a lot more slugging for 4k, and as a side effect, I have seen a lot less giving hatch now that this mechanic exists.
Beyond that, the finisher mori takes away certain dramatic plays that can be made at the endgame that otherwise make for memorable moments in rare cases.
I absolutely will do everything I can in a match to keep it from happening.
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Yeah, it seems like it should be feasible to reconnect players into their matches. I'm not sure what's under the proverbial hood of the code, but re-injecting someone into the lobby should be possible unless there's some unexpected issues with the way lobbies are handled.
Then if someone is spectating their own character, they could be allowed to regain control after 5 or 10 seconds of spectating (or ideally by pressing a button so they don't assume control mid-chase).
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
I think if the only real distinction between a 3k and a 4k is cheevos, then there's arguably little difference between a 3k and a 4k at all. One's just a "you win with style" option while the other is simply "you win". I really truly wish that BHVR would just adjust the Adepts to not HAVE to be 4ks, it seems like it should just be "win as X Killer with their own perks". That would eliminate stuff like slugging and stuff for adepts.
Agreed about adepts being a problem in that sense.
I always thought that doing something with style meant holding the door open for someone less fortunate ;)
And while I mostly meant that as a joke about giving hatch, I kind of treat it that way when I play killer. If the last survivor didn't do anything to deliberately aggro me, they're probably getting hatch.
Having said that, I think it's important to go for 4k sometimes so that there's always an expectation that as the last survivor, you're generally not going to make it. That threat makes giving hatch feel more meaningful in my mind. But now having said all this, I think slugging for 4k is the opposite of winning with style. It's more like a hunter with a weapon hunting a defenseless creature that doesn't even know how to fight back, and then the hunter decides to take away the only means of escape. No sport in it.
Anyway, now I feel like I'm ranting. I think I agree with what you wrote :D
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I've seen a lot of the opposite behavior. Too often, all teammates will assume someone else is going for the save, especially when it's all the way across the map. If someone is hooked in the early game, I now run across the map and find myself the only survivor going for it even when there are seven survivors not on hook.
I've also gone second state a number of times without anyone even coming close.
But if I look behind me and see a survivor also going for the unhook, I usually veer off to the side and see if I should keep going for it. If they head for the hook, I might go for a gen or something.
As a side note, I've seen some people complain about doing chests. But chests are some of the best plays in the late game. Pick up a Commodius as a guide and you can spend a lot less time getting your last gen done, which means a much higher chance of powering the gates since it becomes harder to push you off your gen when the killer has less time to find you on it :)
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@Emeal said:
maybe you should not spam the button well before you even reach the pallet?
lol That's a lesson that can take some time to learn. I don't know how many times I jumped into the locker in shack when I was going for the window before my timing got better :/
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@tricks5776 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3844133#Comment_3844133
that’s your preference, which is fine, but it’s clear that while not intended initially in the game design, bhvr has leaned into looping as part of the base gameplay to prolong chases based on the design of perks, maps, and tiles. So if they’re making it a feature, they should give an idea of what the tiles are intended for.
Agree to disagree. Different perspectives are good to share though :)
Edit: But I also don't want to seem combative, so my thinking is this - I think that since looping wasn't intended and a lot of us got into DbD expecting a horror game, I would like them not to treat looping like a core aspect of the game, even when the game mechanics treat it as one. Personally, I wish the main game mode was more like Lights Out.
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@tricks5776 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3844103#Comment_3844103
agree it shouldn’t include “techs”. They already include strategies in the tooltips so that’s already there. But base looping concepts should def be included. Check spotting and all that I’m fine with leaving out, but looping is such an integral part to the game that giving people at least a clear idea of what to do makes base gameplay better.
I very much disagree with this. Looping is critical to learn, but shouldn't be part of the game at all. It was never intended by BHVR, but they just leaned into it since players discovered it was possible. It's existence really takes away from whatever is left of the horror aspect of the game for me.
I still like the concept of the game and play if for that reason, but running around a rock a bit and then doing some weird chase around windows is by far the least thematically appropriate part of it for me. I think looping should be gradually nerfed into the ground over the course of years and BHVR should lean into a more horror themed approach to the game. I know lots of people think chase is the most fun part of the game, and we all had to spend lots of time learning it, but I really find it the most boring part and would personally prefer tense, somewhat brief chases.
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I like the idea of having more extensive tutorials. By the end of the current ones, you know how to do gens, get hatch, and maybe get m1 hits.
But I think tutorials shouldn't include looping, heal tech, tunneling, proxy camping, 360s, etc.
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Imagine a match with one Doctor and eight Steves!
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3843858#Comment_3843858
I don't think it's that it doesn't work, it's that however they've programed it to work is making the experience worse in alot of cases.
From a survivor main who doesn't understand programming or any of that sort of stuff, it feels different nowadays than it did when it first was introduced.
Back then, I felt like my team mates were on a similar experience level to me. Nowadays, it feels like they take the killers MMR and match two people at the same or slightly higher level, as well as two people at a lower level for easy pickings. If the killer finds the latter players first then it's ggs. If they find a better player first then usually they can carry the game enough to give the team a chance. Expecting people to carry their team mates isn't fair imo.
Whether that is what is happening obviously i don't know, but it's simply what it *feels* like comparing now to back then. And I've seen others feeling the same way, like complaints about team mates I feel is at an all time high because we've all noticed this mis-match happening too frequently.
I'll agree about that. I've had matches where I wonder what my teammates are even thinking, but I'll also occasionally see someone loop forever and wonder if it's a killer worse than me or a survivor better than me.
I suspect that BHVR basically has currently set matchmaking to create lobbies with MMRs that are all close to each other when lots of people are playing. If there aren't enough people available with an MMR near yours, then they try to decrease wait times by matching you with people of different MMR.
I kind of prefer those disparate MMR matches in favor of matchmaking time, but I know a lot of people get tired of teammates who are basically Samination's Locker Dwight. So it might be good if BHVR were to give people the ability to decide whether MMR or matchmaking time will be more important when finding a lobby for them.
*However, I have to admit that such an option would likely increase matchmaking time for everyone when some people make MMR more important in their lobby preference.
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Thank you for the pun!
+rep
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Sounds like something out of Blade.