smurf
smurf
About
- Username
- smurf
- Joined
- Visits
- 3,387
- Last Active
Comments
-
@Anti051 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3855305#Comment_3855305
You are but another tree in the vast forest of people who have no idea what's going on in DbD.
"Tunneling," "Camping," and "Slugging" are scrub-terms that came from survivors being salty about losing.
Ignorantly perpetuating this sort of bogus nomenclature in a feeble attempt to control how people play killer is the only real problem.
This is a mischaracterization. All those actions are extremely cheap moves that make the game almost pointless to play from a survivor's perspective and which generally take almost no skill to perform.
Put yourself in the survivor's position and take tunneling as an example: Is it fun at all to not get to participate in any way other than to be chased for your entire match and eliminated with no realistic chance of escape? What's the point in even playing survivor if that's what's going to happen?
-
@Berienn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3855846#Comment_3855846
dead is good enough. main goal for killers is to prevent survivors from escaping.
Actually I agree with this statement. I'm sure you and I disagree about the means used to do it, but I also don't care about bp or 'winning'.
I do take into consideration the experience of the other players in the game though. So if there's a slug I left because I was chasing someone who hid around a corner with a flashlight, I'll always go back and look for the slug if they're still down. No bleeding people out intentionally... unless I've full-team slugged a bully squad... no excuse for people who intentionally make other people's games worse.
-
In the Halloween event, there was a pretty hopeless match where another survivor and I were the last two left. And I can't remember if we had the gates powered or it was a hopeless three gen, or whatever.
But I just ran around kicking pumpkins at that point because why not do something silly when you're not going to escape? I had given the killer some good chases earlier in the match and was ready to go down and let my teammate get a chance at hatch since I wasn't even kind of trying to hide. But my teammate made a play for whatever the next survivor goal was and got their last hook.
When the match was done, I had 112,000 bp, so I just started laughing. But my teammate was pretty grumpy about it...
-
If a Pig throws a bunch of snowskulls at you from stealth, it may be me. If it is me, you may boop the snoot 👉🐽
-
@Berienn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3855807#Comment_3855807
4 targets means 4 kills
But that isn't what you said. You said three kills isn't a win. But it actually is.
Not only that, but saying '4 targets means 4 kills' doesn't address anything about slugging, in general or for 4k.
-
@Berienn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3855389#Comment_3855389
AGAIN… it's not killer's problem that last survivor left you behind and won't help you.
That doesn't answer the question. If I can make my time easier by forcing other people to have a bad time, I should do that?
-
@Berienn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3855428#Comment_3855428
Why would i take a risk of losing by racing someone i don't even know where is to place i don't know where is? XD That's not my problem if you can't take L. 3 kills is not a win XD. Killer's job is getting 4kills, kill everyone before anyone escape XD. They wouldn't make it 4v1 if 3 kills was everything.
3 kills is a 'win' by the only definition of 'win' we have from BHVR...
-
@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3855584#Comment_3855584
To be fair hatch might as well not exist because it's a regular occurrence in my matches when there are 2 survivors left both hide for as long as possible, avoid doing gens and many times server has ended because they refuse to come out of hiding and I refuse to stop patroling gens. My job is patrol gens not play hide and seek searching the whole map for 2 people that are avoiding the objective (repairing gens). So to answer your question as a killer, I would prefer to remove the hatch so it doesn't give survivors any more reason to delay the match in the way they do currently. Also I wouldn't slug the 3rd survivor to get the 4k I feel I have earned by taking out 2 survivors before they completed 2 gens.
That's weird. I never see this. But to be fair, I don't strictly patrol gens if I think people are hiding. If there's not a gen with lots of progress, I go hunting and wrap things up pretty fast :)
-
@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3855576#Comment_3855576
Sorry but I have to disagree strongly with this one, hatch does encourage slugging just as basekit Mori does. It gives killers a reason to slug. I know this because I wouldn't slug at the end game if there was nothing in it for me. Remove hatch and Mori and why would I slug? Also the hatch hasn't solved the hide and seek issue because still survivors hide until server end time if need be even if they know when server time runs out they get sacrificed automatically.
It's impossible to hide until server time runs out during a slug for 4k unless the survivor refuses to escape once the bleedout timer is out and the killer refuses to close the hatch. And I've never seen two survivors hide for an hour. Admittedly, I don't recall if I've had two survivors both try to hide for hatch. However, I know I've never had two survivors hide for hatch until server end time; maybe I just found them and it doesn't stick out in my mind?
But if we removed hatch, then we would see survivors hiding for as long as possible. I mean this as a real question: Would you prefer that to hatch?
Not trying to be confrontational, just genuinely curious :)
-
Hatch does not cause slugging for 4k. It doesn't even encourage it. Hatch was literally implemented to prevent the things slugging for 4k causes. Without hatch, every 4k would end in some long-drawn-out game of hide-and-seek, but where the outcome is guaranteed. The survivor would not escape, but many of them would end up hiding as long as possible. I don't want to be dealing with that as killer or survivor.
Hatch, when not circumvented, gives the last survivor a reason not to just hide for as long as possible, causing the endgame to finish in a timely way. It also makes it possible for the last survivor to have some hope of escaping, which is pretty reasonable. I rarely ever see a survivor just intentionally hiding for ages once only two survivors are left so they can get hatch. (But I have to admit that I have found survivors doing gens during hopeless game states and then gone to see if their teammate is doing gens too…) But I've seen plenty of games where the killer leaves the strongest looper for the end. It's pretty fair that the last survivor gets a chance at escape.
It's also true that hatch race is generally in the killer's favor. I tend to win most of my hatch races as killer since I have higher move speed, don't need to hide from the survivor, and can fulfill my goal by finding either the hatch or the survivor. Slugging for 4k also doesn't make the difference between a 'win' or 'loss'. The only metric that suggests a win or loss is that MMR considers a win at 3k or higher.
It's also not the slugged survivor's fault if their solo queue teammate leaves them to bleed out. Slugging for 4k makes that move possible, and actively encourages survivors to hide for minutes at a time. By slugging for 4k, the killer is causing the game of hide-and-seek that hatch was meant to prevent. And killers who do this think it's acceptable to force the third survivor to bleed out on the ground for up to several minutes while this goes on.
-
@Berienn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3854577#Comment_3854577
what? xD bleeding out is basic mechanic, why youre so mad at killers for using it to get 4th kill?? 2 survs already have almost 0% chance of wining together anyway
Regarding the low chance of the last survivors escaping: Hatch was implemented to do two related things: prevent a long drawn out hunt, and give the last survivor a reason to play out the endgame. The last survivor should have a reasonable chance at escape or else the match should just end as soon as the third survivor is down.
Slugging for 4k forces the third survivor to wait on the ground for several minutes unable to do anything while the killer goes to get their nearly guaranteed fourth kill during some long, slow hunt. And now, the killer can top that off by doing a victory dance over the slug once they've finished their hunt.
Also, it doesn't matter that bleedout is a basic mechanic, the question stands: Are you saying that since people can make their time easier by making other people have a bad time, they should do that?
-
@frozzenk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3854249#Comment_3854249
You are not even realizing that from the get go your entire argument is based on the assumption that the killer doing their objective is "bm". Tunneling, camping, aggressive slugging. As you called it. These are all tools that can be implemented in order to fulfill the killer's objective. Which is to kill. If the name didn't make it obvious. Some exceptions apply, such as the one I already mentioned about letting people bleed out for no reason in the post I explained my personal opinion on the subject. Opinion that which you just ignored, by the way.
Meanwhile, at no point in the survivor list of "bm" activities did you list legit things that are part of completing theirs. I suppose an argument could be made for teabagging in order to mentally destabilize the killer, but that's less of a game thing and more about just trying to be so toxic you get in the person's head. Wouldn't explain teabagging at exit gates either.
So we're back at the "the killer fulfilling his game objective is problematic, but the survivor fulfilling theirs is not" stage. What is it that you call this situation? When someone does something, but has an issue with someone else doing the same thing on the opposite team? Oh, yes. There is a word for that! What would that word be, I wonder?
The killer can pursue their goal by making it nearly impossible for survivors to participate in the game via tunneling, camping, and slugging for 4k. Do not forget the part where the targeted survivor is only able to be chased and eliminated for their entire match.
What you're saying is that because the killer can do those things, they should. That is like saying that if I'm able to get more money by causing someone else to not have enough money, I should do that.
We're all playing this game for enjoyment, so we shouldn't make it impossible for others to enjoy the game. That is it. If you want to ruin someone else's experience, feel free. It's allowed for now. But don't be surprised when the people whose experiences you ruin are angry with you.
Also, please remember that survivors do not have that same power. They do not have any ability to pursue their goal in a way that keeps the killer from participating in the match in the expected way. Remember that when you write your inevitable response.
-
It would be funny if you could use it thrice.
-
@Memesis said:
What is the point of this post? The game heavily discourages spreading hooks. Average to below average killers already get stomped by not tunneling. Not everyone plays this game like a full time job to be able to win with 12 hooks.
Do you mean average to below average killer characters or average to below average killer players?
-
@Prometheus1092 said:
I get they are saying it because I tunneled but like I said, I don't see any reason for me to get good. Usually get good is said to people that complain about something like if they can't kill survivors or if survivors can't loop, then the response is simply get good... But to say get good to a winner that has no complaints just doesn't make sense to me. If anything it should be me saying get good. I understand why they say it but don't understand the logic.
Yeah, I think communication in the community could be better. Whatever disagreements you and I have about tunneling, I think people would hear each other more if communication were a little less confrontational.
e.g. dropping a 'get good' isn't as useful as someone saying 'that was no fun, why did I even bother playing?' since the latter is less of an accusation and more an expression of the person's experience. Not that it would solve anything or change opinions, but people might at least understand each other better.
-
@Berienn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852764#Comment_3852764
eh.. youre still ignoring how the game is designed.. its only your problem as survivor if you cant win, rly.. the killer's job is to kill every survivor before they escape.. 3 kills is not win
So you're saying that since people can make their time easier by making other people have a bad time, they should do that?
-
Could be trolls. Based on our previous interactions, I believe you regularly tunnel too, so it could be that they thought you did something that expressed to them that you were using a low skill tactic. I'm not trying to judge tunneling or anything in this response, just mentioning that it might be why they said that.
-
@frozzenk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853889#Comment_3853889
You disagree that survivors wanting to do their objective but being upset when killers do theirs constitutes hypocrisy, which means you think it is justified. Thinking a mentality that is clearly unbalanced and biased like that is justified constitutes entitlement. You seem very confused, sort of folding under your own opinions. I would suggest making up your mind.
Perhaps you could focus on what you are trying to say more, and less on the passive aggressive emojis? Writing an empty post that provides 0 argumentation whatsoever and just comes out as snarky really doesn't do you any favors. If you have an actual argument, by all means, do use it. Otherwise the empty snarkiness gets you nowhere. As an example, I am explaining, by their definitions, exactly why and how I think something qualifies as hypocrisy or entitlement. I'm not just dropping empty statements without any explanation or justification and then a smiley face. That would be silly. The fact you are not managing to do the same is worrying, at the very least.
Look, I've been incredibly polite with you. If you want to go around accusing people of being upset, entitled, unable to articulate their thoughts, confused, folding under their own opinions, and more, please do it to someone who's not being nice to you. I've written my statements with smiley faces and use friendly language in nearly all of our interactions. I have absolutely not been passive aggressive, but I'm certainly getting tired of the accusations I'm receiving. In any case, I won't be accusing you of any of the sort of things you've accused me of.
With that out of the way, here are my thoughts on what constitutes bad manners in this game:
From survivors, bm is mainly in the form of teabagging and participating in bully squads by targeting the killer more than they target generators.
From killers, bm is mainly in the form of tunneling, camping, aggressive slugging, and that W+D thing whose name I don't write for fear of running afoul of some filter or rule.
Generally, bm in the game on both sides can be placed into two categories: (1) taunting (which includes teabagging and that W+D thing) and (2) anything that dramatically prevents a player from being able to participate in the match.
The things that fit into (2) are bully squad behaviors (excessive stuns, blinds, or other actions done solely to annoy the killer instead of trying to do gens), and a small set of killer behaviors that can force a single survivor player to be unable to participate in the match in the expected way for anywhere from several minutes to the entire match. As mentioned above, those killer behaviors are primarily tunneling, camping, and needless aggressive slugging. Here are a small set of explanations regarding why those are able to prevent a player from participating in a match in a meaningful way:
Tunneling: The killer is always able to tunnel a survivor out of they want to. There is almost nothing a survivor can do to last an entire match against a killer who's set on taking that one person out. If a killer wants just one kill, they can down a survivor, hook them near some gens they can guard and proxy camp while patrolling those gens. Early in my time playing the game, I got annoyed when people would flashlight blind me at every pallet and tunneled some of them out. I remember that one of them escaped... ever. And that player did not get to participate in the match except to be chased and only got out with the help of their entire team. I can only imagine how hard it would be for someone to escape at my current skill level. It is trivial for a killer to tunnel a survivor and make them unable to play the game. A tunneled survivor would be right to wonder why they even started up their match.
Camping: This is actually less of a problem except when paired with tunneling. But a lot of killers will engage in proxy camping because it makes it trivial to prevent one survivor from being healed and gives the killer the opportunity to chase the unhooked survivor or the rescuer. The problematic part of this is that it's a trivial strategy that solo queue survivors have little means of countering if they're not very experienced. I'd argue that camping could be considered by experienced survivors to be not much of a problem since the counter is to get multiple gens done while the killer doesn't do much about it. But this approach to the game is easily coupled with tunneling to make a survivor completely unable to participate in the game except to be chased. And once a 1v3 is obtained by tunneling and camping, the survivors are likely to lose if there are more than one or two gens left. It is a cheap move that easily tilts the match in favor of the killer, but which requires the entire survivor team to know what they're doing to counter.
Needlessly Aggressive Slugging: It is possible for a killer to put survivors on the ground and force them to bleed out for several minutes, unable to participate in the game while doing so. Honestly, four person slugs should almost never happen because survivors shouldn't let it happen, but killers are increasingly able to do it. But the thing I think is really a problem is slugging for 4k. Slugging for 4k causes two people to wait for up to several minutes in a nearly impossible situation. The last survivor has essentially no hope of escape as soon as the third survivor is slugged. Forcing such a situation in a game is already unsportsmanlike. But beyond that, the third survivor has to wait on the ground for up to several minutes. And if the fourth survivor heals the third one, the killer can easily slug one of them again. It's practically a guaranteed fourth kill, even though the last survivor may have outplayed the killer the entire match, with the killer just ignoring them until the end. All this can go on for several minutes, wasting everyone's time when hatch was literally implemented to prevent this scenario.
Tunneling, camping, and aggressive slugging that leads to bleedouts are strategies that require very little skill and often make people wonder why they decided to play the game since they often make it nearly impossible to participate except to be chased and eliminated. Likewise, bully squads and teabagging are things that make the game and community worse, and should be discouraged.
We are playing this game with other people, so it is necessary to consider the experience of those other people when we play. That means that survivors shouldn't be teabagging or bullying, and killers shouldn't be tunneling, camping, or slugging for 4k. I'm not saying that anyone is forced to act well toward other people, only that they should.
I'll likely not write such a long post again, but I wanted to give you the courtesy of answering your question.
****** I apologize to anyone who had to scroll past all this.*****
-
@PuddleOfBludd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853904#Comment_3853904
I wasn’t accusing you of being a survivor main. And my post was more in general as almost everyone of these threads that complain about tunneling all of the survivor mains come and say it’s not because of gen regression … so that is in fact, the survivors having thick skulls. But yeah, I was being in general not directly you
All fair. Thanks for being nice about it :)
-
@UknownShredder said:
I mean honestly now. Sometimes you run into some really elite Survivor team and they can toy with you, You are lucky to get a hit in with a lot of killers and gens are popping and you can only dream about tunneling one of them because they will bring you to the most horrific loops in which where you spend time you going to lose the game since other sitting on gens.
So this is a skill issue. The reason you get tunneled is because…
A you are bad at looping
B You are running into the killers face
C Your teammates does not protect you if A and B is abcent.
Further id like to add that i also dont really want to tunnel you out and i usually dont. When i relax and play casually because i want to get some nice kills in on ghostface and i do not 4k the entire team but perhaps let them win although i could have killed them 4-0 in the first 5min. You get to the lobby and you get these rude players that you would have murked if you even tried 50% sitting there talking crap about you and your gameplay when you are doing quests and so on.
When you get those kind of lobbies it does not exactly promote the idea to play nice the next game. Because the next game when everyone is hanging on a hook while i waiting for the beleeding bastard to get mourid the silence is deafening in the chat.
Conclusion. If you waiting at other side of exit game and waste 2 min i will slug ya all in the next game and wait for 5min.
If you talk crap in the lobby other than a thank you for comprehending my mercy i will slug you in the next game and wait for 5min.
If you run a 4man discord bully squad i will kill you and also punish the next team i meet by slugging them for 5min.
You see, the power is in the hands of the killer so be nice.I'm not sure we should be taking out hostility on people who had nothing to do with invoking it.
-
@PuddleOfBludd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3828705#Comment_3828705
The only incentive for killers to not tunnel is to undo what survivor mains did to themselves. Generator regression. It basically no longer exists and so long as that remains the case enjoy your tunneling because it will not change. You guys complained about gen regression to the point where it’s not even a viable thing for the killer to do anymore. So since that thing is no longer available, the only other thing to do is chase down and kill survivors as quickly as possible to prevent the generators from being done so quickly. Until you get it through your thick skull’s that you did this to yourselves and changes are implemented to make generator regression viable again, you’re going to continue to spend your matches on the floor or being tunneled. That much I can promise you.
now, of course, tunneling and slugging will not completely disappear if we get generator regression back, but it will definitely decrease by a significant amount. Because there are plenty of killers that were not tunneling prior to gen regression being nerfed into non existence. I definitely did not see tunneling as often before the era of no gen regression.
Please do not say that I or others have thick skulls and can't understand things or accuse me of being a survivor main.
-
@UknownShredder said:
Ill tell you guys. Survivors are making our playstyle toxic. You ask us why we slug you and let you bleed out while we look at you ? Because you open exit gate and expect me to run across the entire map to waste time. If a survivor is trying to bully me with a flashlight she/he is going down and out from the game in about 2minute tunneling. You sit there when you manage to survive teabagging at the gate talking crap in the post match.. okay, lets see how fun it is next time when i decimate the entire team and then carry you to some bright light where i can slowly watch you die.
If survivors had an ounce of respect when they are sucessful perhaps then. We wouldnt do this.
As a side note. If you managed to be tunneled its a skill issue. You are probably the weak link and by getting you out the pace of everything slows down and sometimes more often than not you are running right into my knife so what should i do? Sometimes Survivors ask me when i camp the last hook when its 1 on hook 1 on death hook. Im like, Should i run to the other side of the map and let you unhook and go pick up your belonings you lost from my perk and then let you sit and start a gen before i engage again?
What do you expect ? A killers mission is to kill so that is what we do.I suspect this hostility you see from survivors may be something of a self-fulfilling prophecy. I almost never see a survivor teabag at the gate anymore as killer, and I know the only way I'll do it myself is if the killer has been playing in a way that prevents another player from enjoying the match (e.g. tunneling, camping, slugging just to bleed out, slug for 4k, doing that W+D thing).
If you were to tunnel and camp less, you might see less bm directed back at you by the survivors in your matches.
-
@frozzenk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853614#Comment_3853614
Disagreeing about it means that you think survivors should do their objectives without any checks while killers should have to follow several arbitrary rules when completing theirs.
That is, by definition (if you are going to be upset by what I'm about to say, please be upset at the English language, not at me) entitlement. I have heard the sentence "entitled survivors" before but I have to say, I don't actually see it for myself very often. But here it is.
And as for my personal opinion, it is this: Survivors should do their objectives. Killers should do theirs. No crying about anything that is done for the purpose of fulfilling the objective, unless it's some cheat/hack in which case hopefully the person gets hardware IP banned and never comes back. And if the survivors are better they'll win. If the killer is better he'll win. Match over. Go next.
And the reason I specified "things that are done for the purpose of fulfilling the objective" is because there are things people do that have no actual purpose and are just to be a jerk. Like letting the last survivor bleed out instead of hooking/mori'ing for no reason. Waiting for the killer to see you teabagging at the gate on the way out. So on. These things fulfill no purpose, they are just people being toxic.
I didn't say any player shouldn't do their objective or follow 'arbitrary rules' :)
-
@frozzenk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853601#Comment_3853601
It makes sense because people are hypocrites. I already said this 3 times. Survivors are fine doing their objective, regardless of what the killer may think. They are not fine with the same thing from the other side. At this point I think there might be some language issue here if you cannot comprehend the hypocrisy. It is pretty damn clear. Or maybe you do… you're not very genuine so I guess it's possible you do but you just ignore and/or pretend you don't see it. Otherwise it makes no sense to actually move your fingers on your keyboard to… defend hypocrisy. What sort of person does that?
Also, if bully squads are "awful at escaping" that says something about the level you play at more than it says something about bully squads as a general thing. Regardless, the quality of the player doesn't matter. We are having a discussion exclusively about mentality.
Also what's with the extremely petty reply thing? I didn't click reply that one particular time cuz yours was the latest post in the thread and I was in a hurry. Some people really take the small nothings and turn into some petty hit back lol. I didn't think it would be a big deal but apparently it was. Some people…
Well, it's clear we disagree about this :)
I was trying to be polite when I didn't quote you in that last response. Someone else got annoyed at me once when I kept replying to their comments that quoted me, so I tried to consider whether that was what you wanted :D
In any case, I promise I'm quite genuine in spite of what my people are known for. (That last sentence was is of course meant to be a bit playful :)
-
@frozzenk
Since you didn't quote me in your response, I won't quote you here so you won't get a ping. But I'm really not being disingenuous. I very much believe that survivors can't do much to ruin a game when I'm the killer. The worst they can do to me is escape, so they're almost completely unable to prevent me from playing the game as I expect to. They do gens, I chase them and put them on hooks. The outcome depends on how long it takes me to find and hook survivors vs how long it takes them to do gens.
Bully squads are usually easy games. If they're doing non-stop attempts at flashy saves, flashbangs, get head-ons repeatedly, I'll just start slugging and stop caring if they get tunneled. If they want me to be unable to play the game, they can get the same treatment they give. But bully squads tend to be rather awful at escaping since they spend their time trying to harass the killer instead of doing gens. It's usually a slugfest. So generally, I don't think bully squads are a real threat to my ability to play the game. If I recall correctly, a bully squad got two out on me a while ago, and I was kind of impressed.
In contrast, I think survivors have a reason to complain about killer behaviors. If a killer wants a particular survivor out of the game, that survivor will have almost no chance of getting out without the help of most of their team. Tunneling ruins the match for the targeted survivor, and I'm really surprised there aren't harder restrictions on that behavior. I think it makes sense that we see these complaints :)
-
@frozzenk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3853439#Comment_3853439
Were you obtuse on purpose? The question is why is everything ok and nothing matters when it comes to survivors doing their objective, but when it comes to killers doing theirs, suddenly a bunch of factors show up.
Hopefully you understood the point now, though I suspect you understood it the first time and just pretended not to.
I don't think people are focused only on killers when talking about fun. The question was meant to illicit a response about why fun was or wasn't being focused on from the survivor side vs the killer side.
There are just fewer things survivors can do to most killers that will ruin the killer's match. I used to think differently since I'd come across bully squads and get annoyed by them, but usually now if I get a bully squad it just means I get a 4k since they're often predictable and not focusing on gens enough.
All that survivors really have left that can make my game worse is to try to get under my skin by teabagging, which also doesn't really work anymore. In contrast, the killer can easily ruin the game for a survivor by tunneling and proxy camping, literally forcing them to be unable to do anything but get chased and eliminated. As a result, I think people do think about fun for both sides, but the killer is generally the only person able to severely deny the fun of other players. That's why I made the question that way; I thought there was a bit of nuance in the reasoning behind what people are saying about killer vs survivor actions.
-
@frozzenk said:
Why is it ok for survivors to do their objective but when killers do theirs suddenly the "community" makes up a bunch of rules and fun suddenly becomes a factor? Suddenly playing the objective becomes "toxic".
What do you call this phenomenon? Other than massive hypocrisy, that is.
Shouldn't fun be the reason people play the game?
-
Four killers team up to rapidly hit other killers. Bubba one-shots all of them and the meta shifts to all Huntresses.
-
@Orvarihusklumpen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852456#Comment_3852456
- It is still enough for people to slug for the 4k but mostly it's for the hatch.
- BHVR's stats are completely useless and it doesn't tell the whole story, it's across all MMR and we have no idea how exactly that data is collected and is mostly used a tool by BHVR to paint the narrative. Their latest stats on the killrates was a joke.
- Killers hooking survivor gives them We'll Make It, Borrowed Time, 10 second haste, 10 second endurance, Dead Hard, Aftercare, Blood Rush, Breakdown, Aftercare, Breakdown, Fast track, Decisive Strike, Babysitter, Renewal, Resurgence, Guardian, Deliverance, Kindred, Kinship, Boil over, Off The Record, Reassurance Background player, Breakout and not only that but carrying a survivor reduces your movement speed making kilers more susceptible to sabo plays and flashlight saves. A lot of content creators have made videos about slugging these last few months including Otz who was part of an experiment which only included slugging and not hooking and they got better results when they slugged instead of hooking survivors. Decisive Strike is still one of the best anti-tunnel perks that survivors have even after all the nerfs it has received over the years, the only perk that i would say is better is Babysitter but you rarely see that perk in solo queue because it doesn't benefit the perk user and you have no idea of knowing if your teammates have it or not.
TL;DR of the problem here is that killers players have essentially realized that they can circumvent anti-tunnel and hook related survivor perks if they don't hook survivors because a lot of these activate when you hook survivors. BHVR has chosen to adress tunneling not as mechanic in the game but with perks so killer players have found away around said perks.
I see here that Nurse is weak and Pig is top tier.
-
@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851963#Comment_3851963
Indeed slugging for the 4k or mori might seem toxic or bad sportsmanship but as long as bhvr allows it and actively encourages it then many killers will do it and I don't see it changing any time soon. Personally I don't think slugging for the 4k is cheap, I think the hatch is cheap. Mainly because a killer still has to do something to get 4k, has to chase and down the remaining survivors. The hatch requires the survivor to do nothing all match, potentially throw your whole team under the bus getting them killed so that 1 person can get a hatch escape...such an anti team mechanic. That's a cheap escape
I see what you mean about survivors who don't contribute to their team getting a decent chance of escaping at the end. In almost all games I've played as survivor or watched, this almost never occurs, but it definitely feels undeserved when it happens. I've had scenarios as killer where I've watched a survivor actively sell out of give up their teammates. In those scenarios, I've slugged the third, hunted the scoundrel and gone back to pick up my slug to give them hatch or gate.
It would be reasonable to make the hatch mechanic a little skill-based to make it somewhat earned in the eyes of people like yourself who dislike the RNG nature of it. Some people have proposed to make a last chase where the survivor has to last a certain amount of time, but I think that would be unfairly biased between high and low skill lobbies (low skill lobbies will see the survivor never escaping, but high skill lobbies will see the race outcome depend on skill and which killer is involved - a la Nurse). I think the challenge there is to make such a race fair. Personally, I like the current hatch mechanic, but a well-balanced somewhat skill-based hatch rework that gives the last survivor a reasonable chance to escape across all MMRs would maybe be better.
-
I like original characters who are interesting variations on believable people that we could meet in real life. Ace, Claudette, David, Feng, Dwight, Mikaela, etc.
A lot of us have probably known someone who likes gambling, or maybe someone really into business or martial arts, or Wiccans, athletes, dancers, etc. I've personally known people who fit all those descriptions, and they make the survivors who are sort of slightly highlighted versions of those things more relatable and interesting to me.
Likewise, I'm more interested in killers who are more drawn from urban legends. So I'd maybe like to see the Mothman, the Jersey Devil, Bloody Mary, etc.
Maybe this is why I like early seasons of the show Supernatural, and post apocalyptic media (TWD, State of Decay, etc). They tend to include regular-ish people facing horror that we could kind of imagine being behind the scenes of daily life or following up on the world we live in.
-
@Coz said:
Taurie seems pretty cool but…. As a Glaswegian I have to say thather accent is dreadful!
Like Christopher Lambert Highlander levels of terrible!
I once watched some B-movie because Lambert was in it, but only because of his Highlander fame. It was goofy. I'm curious, if you've watched any of the TV show, is Adrian's accent better during his flashbacks?
-
@Berienn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852306#Comment_3852306
the question is why shouldnt he leave you on the ground until he gets last one??? hiding can let last survivor escape, perks can let survivor escape when 3rd is dying on hook… why should killer let that happen and risk losing
The answer to that question is already written in both of my previous comments you've responded to. I'll copy/paste the relevant part here again:
"... slugging for 4k causes two people to wait for up to several minutes in a nearly impossible situation. The last survivor has essentially no hope of escape as soon as the third survivor is slugged. Forcing such a situation in a game is already unsportsmanlike. But beyond that, the third survivor has to wait on the ground for up to several minutes. It is astonishing that a person would think it's okay to do that in a game that's supposed to be fun for the people playing it."
The game is supposed to be fun for all players. But by slugging for 4k, the killer forces the last two survivors to literally waste their time in a situation that nearly guarantees that the other players have a poor outcome. And that's not even being done so the killer can 'win' since the game is already considered a 'win' when a 3k is achieved.
We are playing this game with other people, so it is necessary to consider the experience of those other people when we play. That means that survivors shouldn't be teabagging, and killers shouldn't be tunneling, camping, or slugging for 4k. I'm not saying that anyone is forced to act well toward other people, only that they should.
Realistically, BHVR should be finding ways to police those behaviors enough that they almost never happen. Personally, I know that I'm playing less now than I used to because I see the game stuck in a place where people keep doing things that ruin the experience of other players. When I think of loading up a match, I also wonder what the point of it will be because of things like this. But I've held out some hope that they'll make it better, hence still staying a little involved in the community.
-
@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852645#Comment_3852645
your logicc ompletely excluded survivor players who basically grief their team whole match and avoid the killer just so that they can get an easy hatch at the end and think how they "outplayed" killer. It literally has 0 similar points to paying taxes. It's just a poorly done bandaid for something bigger that contributes more towards less healthy game than a more healthy one.
That literally almost never happens though. Very few survivor players actually do that in any match I've played or watched.
-
@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852290#Comment_3852290
the worst comparison i've seen so far.
slugging for 4k is literally done in order to prevent last survivor being able to get into the pure rng game for hatch.
Hatch exists as a nothing but lame mechanic to prevent games going into oblivion in terms of duration .
Your comparison absolutely makes 0 sense
The comparison makes plenty of sense. I'll write the point again: There's an intended result (hatch race/paying taxes) that's being evaded because someone found a workaround to avoid doing something that's in the best interest of the most people.
You might notice how both things are designed to do something that's meant to benefit a larger group (hatch does this by stopping games from ending in a long boring hunt and giving the last survivor a reason to play the endgame out), but then people are evading those things.
The comparison is quite accurate. People aren't slugging for 4k because of hatch; they're doing it because they desperately want an easy kill. People don't try to evade taxes because of tax laws, they evade taxes because they want to keep their money. In both cases, blaming the mechanic doesn't get at the reason for what's happening.
-
@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851909#Comment_3851909
Cheers muchly! ^^
I will admit that I do feel like the Finisher Mori isn't at the best place it could be, I would hope that a lot of the negative aspects people find with it could be smoothed over to make it a cool thing for everyone (within reason ofc… anyone who hate's mori's in general probably can't be convinced) xD
Wow, that's one nutty save… Gz! 🤣
I do feel like the Finisher Mori is fine itself… its the circumstances it comes about I believe that is usually the problem… and why people have issue with it.
A Silly Suggestion
If we wanted to hard deal with 4k slugging, one method would be to have it where the Entity plays one final game to maximise the hope for the survivor and test their killer with a final hunt.
When the third survivor dies or begins being sacrificed to the Entity:
- If the final survivor is greater than 32m from the killer, the killer gains Killer Instinct on that survivor for 6 seconds.
- If the final survivor is in the dying state, they gain the ability to pick themselves up a single time out of the dying state.
- If the killer closes the hatch and the survivor is greater that 32 m from the killer, the killer gains Killer Instinct on the final survivor for 6 seconds.
Also I'd make a general change to allow slugged survivors to swap items on the floor and in chests while in the dying state… just so if you can go looking for a key while you're slugged. Also remove hatch offerings for survivor side.
This means that the survivor always has a chance to escape… but also has a harder time evading the killer, especially if the killer hooked the final player, as they'll get all the time it takes for the Entity to sacrifice the survivor to move across the map and search for a survivor far away before hatch spawns.
No killer I know actually enjoys slugging for the 4k if they need an adept or a challenge, it's more just necessary cause it's otherwise a total crap shoot, and looking for a slug after you've slugged them in itself is annoying…. At least with this version, we're pointed right at the survivor, and it's a more exciting game affot where we genuinely have a final chase to try and close the match out, instead we're not walking around blindly like a jerk looking for the hatch, and then trying to spot a scratch mark at an exit gate.
I think the idea of having a sort of final showdown would satisfy the people who dislike the RNG nature of hatch. Personally, I think hatch is fairly balanced since it's somewhat killer sided for M1 killers, and extremely killer sided for killers like Blight. But to satisfy others:
My feeling is that if all other survivors have been sacrificed, the last survivor kind of needs a reason to play out the end of the match. If there's no realistic chance of escape, why even bother? So they should have a feasible means of escape that works for them a decent fraction of the time.
To take away the RNG nature of hatch, making a sort of skill-based hunt-like interaction would work. Some people have proposed something like a chase for this kind of scenario, but I think newer survivors would essentially never escape those situations. What you propose is I think a good start toward a compromise. Giving killer instinct could enable a sort of dramatic hunt where chase or stealth would work, and having both options could work for newer and more experienced players.
Hatch is generally meant to avoid long drawn-out hunts at the endgame and give the last survivor a fighting chance so they have a reason to play it out. And honestly, it does both those things very well except against high mobility killers. So a final hunt would also need to be balanced carefully to be a little killer-sided across all MMRs, but not dramatically so. But I think your suggestion of including killer instinct in the endgame could make the hunt more engaging if balanced carefully.
-
Are there really people doing things that disgrace my people?
Actually, I kind of mean that for real... Is smurfing really happening in DBD? The matchmaking algorithm should eliminate that pretty fast.
-
@Berienn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3852028#Comment_3852028
if you cant survive on your own to get chance to use hatch without killer's help you should be sacrificed like others because there are many ways to survive until hatch is open like bill's perk to get up on your own to counter slugging.. because why would killer help you
The killer isn't helping you by not slugging for 4k; they're following the expected gameplay loop.
Not only that, but slugging for 4k causes two people to wait for up to several minutes in a nearly impossible situation. The last survivor has essentially no hope of escape as soon as the third survivor is slugged. Forcing such a situation in a game is already unsportsmanlike. But beyond that, the third survivor has to wait on the ground for up to several minutes. It is astonishing that a person would think it's okay to do that in a game that's supposed to be fun for the people playing it.
What you're suggesting is that every game should end in a game of hide-and-seek that wastes the time of two people unless one player decides to 'help' two other players.
-
@Orvarihusklumpen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3832119#Comment_3832119
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3832043#Comment_3832043
Slugging for the 4k has always existed and yes it's because of hatch and certain challenges requiring a 4k, i doubt that killers slug for the 4k to see the a mori they probably have seen like a thousand times already. The really big issue here why killers are slugging more is that it actually benefits the killer more than it punishes them such as wasting time picking a survivor and getting the survivor to a hook (especially to a scourge hook that's far away) + it leaves you vulnerable to flashlight saves, pallet saves and numerous perks that activate when you hook someone.
Saying that slugging for 4k is caused by the hatch is like saying that tax evasion is caused by tax laws. There's an intended result (hatch race/paying taxes) that's being evaded because someone found a workaround to avoid doing something that's in the best interest of the most people. Just because it's possible to do doesn't mean it's good to do.
Also, the endgame mori definitely incentives slugging for 4k. And I think people already don't enjoy being slugged for 4k. It's insulting enough when a player bypasses an intended mechanic just to make their job extremely easy at the cost of the enjoyment of two other people. But when they do a preprogrammed victory dance over you at the end of it, it's like BHVR coded in a message telling people not to play survivor.
-
@Berienn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851963#Comment_3851963
should be getting hatch?? no… if you cant survive by yourself without killer's mercy then you dont deserve hatch
Please elaborate. It's not clear what those words mean.
-
@Prometheus1092 said:
Im not sure what some people don't understand, slugging isn't toxic when it's for 4k. It's a legitimate tactic to counter survivor tactics like pallet saves and sabo builds. They had a trial of base kit unbreakable and it lead to survivors abusing it. Key points that indicate slugging is part of the game...
1.mori update does encourage slugging
2. Hatch system encourages slugging
3. Prevention of hooking via sabotage or bodyblocking.
4. Slugging has a timer like being on hook or egc
5. Its not reportable in any way.
6. There are perks designed for slugging such as knock out and perks designed to counter it
At this point people really need to accept slugging is part of the game and that's not likely to change. so my advice is get used to it and learn to counter it or simply don't play the game.
Slugging for 4k is a cheap play, practically guaranteeing the last kill when the last survivor should be getting a hatch race. By circumventing hatch, slugging for 4k literally creates exactly the situations hatch was designed to avoid; it puts the last survivor in a nearly impossible scenario where they're almost certain to be sacrificed, and at the same time creates a long dawn-out hunt that can last for several minutes. At the same time, slugging for 4k forces the third survivor to just sit and wait on the ground during that time, literally wasting the time of a person who'd probably like to just get to their next game. And slugging for 4k isn't even about 'winning' since the game is considered a win by the MMR system at a 3k.
That act of forcing the last survivor into a situation where they have no realistic chance of escape, and forcing the third survivor to waste several minutes just doing nothing but waiting for death, all to get something that doesn't make a difference between winning and losing all seems like very bad sportsmanship. I'd say it's not wrong to call that toxic since it makes multiple players wait in a pointless situation for several minutes, essentially just wasting their time.
Having said that, I agree with many of your other points. Someone sabos the hook you're carrying a survivor to? Drop the survivor and chase the sabotager. Down someone and have to chase people off gens? Leave the slug and run straight to the gen. But slugging for 4k has a very different set of effects than tactical slugging in such other scenarios. It's incredibly easy to pull off and is wildly tilted in the killer's favor while forcing survivors into a game of hide-and-seek that can draw out the endgame for several minutes.
-
@UndeddJester said:
And I woulda gotten away with it too, if it weren't for those meddling kids booping my snoot! >🐽<
Pig is my favorite killer to play as, so she's basically become my main. What you say is true. 👉 🐽
-
@UndeddJester said:
In the spirit of presenting both sides of an argument, to summarise, these are the issues I believe people have with the Finisher Mori: -
- It promotes slugging for the 4k, leaving a player having to sit and have to wait up to 4 minutes to lose an already lost game.
- Players who's tempers and frustrations at the game via numerous other unfun strategies employed by the other side see it as insult to injury, making the game feel more toxic.
- Players are more likely to TRY for the 4k, and those who might have otherwise given hatch and make the game feel more about "fair play", will be more likely to take the cool Finisher Mori ending instead, making a loss for survivors typically feel more bitter.
However the points I would raise in defence of the Finisher Mori are: -
- Slugging for the 4k is for the most part basically unchanged. It was just as prevelant before. If a killer wanted a 4k, they would slug for it before finisher mori was a thing. The only difference now is there is a finer "point" or "sting" to it.
- The killer is supposed to go for the 4k, there is literally no part of the game, either via mechanics or theme that encourages you to show ANY mercy whatsoever. The fact a number of killers (like me) do is an exception, not a rule, and should not be expected.
- This is a horror game. Most horror fans like cool kills, and that is also true of horror fan survivors. The DBD player base isn't just horror fans, but not giving Mori's they're proper place as a common element of the game would be akin to trying to remove the blood and gore because some people are squeemish. We're playing Dead by Daylight, not Barbie and Ken's Party Games.
- Mori's being gated behind offerings only, at the deteriment of things like additional bloodpoints sucks, especially for new killers first getting into the role who don't have many Mori offerings/need the bloodpoints.
- Finisher Mori makes sense for the eventual and obvious win inclusion of purchasable Mori's, which many fans have wanted in the game for years…. and it's a little baffling it isn't already here…
I feel like people point the finger at the Finisher Mori, but it's not the actual problem. Maybe more people do TRY to go for the 4k, but if you think about it, going for the 4k shouldn't be and isn't a crime. They should instead be pointing at Hatch and Slugging for the 4k and addressing those actual pain points; slugging for the 4k is a byproduct of hatch, not the finisher mori, and would not go away if we removed it.
My anecdotal experience is as part of the remaining 2 survivors, I'd say i've typically played for hatch is maybe 1 in 10 games, and it's now 1 in 20. I've probably been given hatch maybe 1 in 100 games compared to the old 1 in 50 games (I get given hatch or gate very rarely unless the killer got rinsed and let me go cause they mental boomed).
This all means the complaints on the finisher mori don't really make sense to me. I personally believe the Finisher Mori is better if it's an incentive for the killer to play hatch, that idea that the Entity rewards the killer for giving hope to Survivors and then successfully snatching it away. Maybe make the hatch offerings for both sides hidden so that either side can take them and then gamble on reaching the hatch first to go for their Mori. Doing that you could even give the huge Exp reward that was toted on the Finisher Mori.
Now if people want to tell me they just don't like getting Mori'd, fair enough…. but I would argue you should probably realise that you're not really the target audience for DBD and Mori's… You're still welcome to be here, but its kinda selfish to put your personal disdain for Mori's over that of the horror community at large. I would hope if you saw Horror fans in Fortnite complaining about Myers not gutting people with big spurts of blood and gore, you'd tell them the exact same… this is not the game for you.
This is perhaps the only rational post I've seen defending the finisher mori. Personally, I've grown to dislike it more and more over time. Either way though, thanks for putting together a coherent post about it :D
I'd also like to add that the finisher mori gives a basekit ability that denies any chance at wiggling off for an endgame escape. And although people say that's rare, I managed it in a match a few days ago, but only because my last teammate hit all their skill checks on hook. I was crawling to the exit and the killer needed to mori because my team and I got us to a state where she couldn't get me to a hook. But that escape would have been impossible if my teammate weren't hitting every check. Killer picked me up right before I got out, so I wiggled off and escaped just seconds before my teammate's second hook state ran out. I've definitely also spectated matches that could have been similarly close depending on perks. So I don't want to say those situations are common, but they make some of the most memorable escapes and can now just be denied most of the time as a basekit ability (though not in the one example I just gave).
And while I see the finisher mori as much more negative than positive, I just wanted to say thanks for writing a decent post on the topic!
-
@PuddleOfBludd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3851706#Comment_3851706
it’s not unique, but it’s much more common and this is much easier for them to have access to cheats than players on Console
Oh, actually I read the original post wrong. That makes sense.
-
It's fine to complain about those things from both sides. Toxicity in online gaming is a problem, and a lot of gaming communities seem to have a lot of people who are unnecessarily hostile to each other. And if we don't bring these things up, it is an absolute certainty that they won't be addressed.
I will say that we're fortunate to not be as toxic as certain other gaming communities...
Edit: This comment was in response to one by another user, but that original comment has been removed. So context may be unclear.
-
@LordGlint said:
Hear me out... What if we get a Scooby and Shaggy skin for houndmaster, complete with voicelines.
Get 'em Scoob!
-
I am confused. Why is this unique to PC players?
-
I can't see examples of what's going on here, but I imagine scratch marks are generated randomly in the vicinity of running survivors. They're probably weighted to show up closer to the survivor's path than farther away. If that's the case, there's probably a probability that they'll occasionally appear misleading. But that's just a guess; could be entirely wrong :/
-
Yeah, once when I was very new, I had developed a little skill with a few killers and then tried a new killer who was harder to control, so I lost a few straight matches. My next few matches with that killer were against lobbies where I swear people didn't realize they should be on gens. In chase, they exclusively held W and maybe dropped some pallets. I literally followed an injured Feng to shack and didn't see her anywhere, but heard her cries from the direction of a locker, so naturally, I went outside to see if she was outside behind the locker and going to loop me around shack. But no. Even when I went outside, injured Feng stayed in the locker.
When I realized what was going on, the game shifted, and my new role was teacher. I gave chase and 'missed' so they could get practice running through tiles, would hit once and let them escape to heal up. I also hoped they'd work on gens, but I distinctly remember just staring at stuff on the map for a while. Eventually, I felt like it was time to wrap it up and they wouldn't complete the last gen, so I took one out after a pretend chase and got the last one to leave through a gate when they were afraid to go for hatch when I was standing next to it.
It was fun and I hope those players enjoyed their game and became super loopers!
-
I've begun to feel this way about the new mechanic too. It feels like the killer is doing a victory dance to show off after they get all the survivors; almost like an official version of teabagging at the gate.
And as you and others have said, they hid the finisher mori behind a 4k, which encourages getting a 4k without caring what means are used to do it. And a lot of people reported increased incidence of tunneling and slugging for 4k in the time following the update. I don't know if the incidence rate of tunneling stayed up, but I do now dread every time a slug for 4k comes around. In the past, I'd just get annoyed by it, but these days I'm finding the combination of that plus the finisher mori just really makes the end of the match feel super toxic.
Beyond that, the finisher mori enables the killer to bypass any chance at the last survivor wiggling off and making a last-second escape. And since certain perks make that more feasible, this is providing a basekit ability to deny players the benefit of their perks. So we get all these negative impacts in exchange for animations that add almost nothing positive to the game.