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smurf
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860369#Comment_3860369
The empathy argument is invalid, because it doesn't apply to both sides of the game. What things do survivors do, that lower their chances of survival, out of empathy for killers?
This seems like a what-about-ism. Instead of addressing the fact that it's rude to waste other people's time and force their experience to be bad, it's only saying "what about the other side?"
We need to be addressing the experience of both sides. That's true. But talking about one of them doesn't invalidate the need to talk about the other.
The problem is that killers are inherently given much more power on a per-player basis than survivors, and can therefore often wield extreme power over the experience of any individual survivor player. As a result, the killer role will tend to need somewhat more guardrails than the survivor role in order to ensure that any one person's experience can't be arbitrarily ruined by another player. Survivors need those things too; bully squads can be annoying, and in the rare instance that someone hides for 10 minutes or more, they should have a disadvantage. I'd support having a sort of tally of 'goal-oriented actions' for each survivor player once there are only two left. Then if one person is doing more gens, opening more chests, existing more often inside the terror radius, etc., killer instinct could happen more frequently on the player doing fewer goal-oriented tasks.
But slugging for 4k (and tunneling, proxy camping) tends to be something you can count on happening in a large fraction of matches. Meanwhile, I'm confident that most people will say they generally do not see nearly as much hiding for many minutes. Having said that, since bad manners from one person will encourage bm from another, I wouldn't be surprised if some players are more willing to hide out as long as they can to punish a killer who has tunneled, camped, and slugged aggressively, completely ignoring the experience of the other side. I do the same as killer; if I get a bully squad, the gloves come off :/
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@shush said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3855973#Comment_3855973
Because… fundamentally… people like to win when they play games. The challenge is how to win the match - not how to get he most hook states, not how to win while also letting the other side have fun, not how to pip and rank up since ranks mean nothing anymore - the goal is to win by getting at least three kills, by any means necessary. This is what the devs and the game push as the win condition, therefore, people are going to find the most efficient and reliable way to secure that win.
This is like saying that knocking-out your opponent in MMA is bad sportsmanship. It's the most efficient way to win the match. They don't care if the opponent only gets to fight one round. They won the match, so it doesn't matter.
I'm not saying this is a good thing, it's just the way it is right now. People play competitive games to win, and DBD is a competitive game apparently. The end.
I really can't imagine that BHVR wants people to be able to play in a way that removes all the fun from their opponent's experience. It's likely they just don't have a way to deal with tunneling, camping, slugging for 4k, and bully squads without removing a necessary way to deal with something some people on the opposing side will do.
For example, because bully squads exist, killers need to be able to slug aggressively and potentially engage in tunneling, camping, etc. Without certain tactics, killers could be bullied without a way to turn the tables on such players, which would make playing killer a very bad experience. Likewise, I think BHVR feels a need to keep flashlight/flashbang/stun saves, because removing them would take away a major game mechanic that isn't inherently toxic.
I would imagine that BHVR would limit all those things in the survivor and killer side if they could, but that they find that removing one of those will leave them unable to preserve balance in some situations. But then that leaves it in the players' hands to ensure that all players can enjoy their games.
Really though, no online game is meant to be a competitive sport except inside of certain gaming leagues. Pretending that DbD or any other video game should be treated in the same way as MMA or professional football (American or the other kind) is a dramatic misrepresentation of why people play the game. We're all playing to have fun, and just like with any activity we do with other people, we should be considering whether the people we share that activity with are able to enjoy their time as well. The only real exception to that should be things like professional sports, but online gaming isn't that outside of pro- or competitive- leagues or tournaments.
I get really surprised when I hear people playing games for fun with other people and then hear them say "It's not on me to make sure you have fun." It's always our responsibility to make sure the people we share activities with can enjoy them with us.
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@MvHoeller said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859681#Comment_3859681
As I said before, the Mori is not a Victory Dance for me, but a pure kill animation that ends the game for one player which gives me the feeling of being in a Slasher Movie (the hook sequence is exactly the same, only much more boring). If the whole thing were interactive, where I could do different things in the kill animation with an input, I might be able to accept the argument.
Besides, I'm pretty sure that in professional sport there is also some dancing when you win. I think football is a good example because there's a lot of toxicity there too. And I'm willing to bet that even if nobody cheered or danced anymore, there would still be some people who would get into a fight.In the end, it's nothing more than an excuse for their own inferiority complex and the resulting victimization. Quite simply because the idea of one's own infallible existence does not match reality and therefore causes stress. If there are no more Moris and no more crouching (for teabagging), then it will simply be the gestures of the Surviors or a spinning killer that convey the feeling that they are in fact the victim of a DBD bully conspiracy. I'm not trying to say that there are no bullies here. They do exist and for the same reason. Particularly on the internet or when online gaming, you also have the protection of anonymity, which makes it even easier to boost your little ego at the expense of others.
And not to digress too long and get to the point: “You are an a**h*** or you are not. It's not triggered by others. If you are one, you'll always find a reason to justify being an a**h***.”
lol I will agree about the nature of people celebrating their wins, whether or not it applies to moris :)
I didn't mean to turn it into a debate either, but I definitely appreciate the discussion :D
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859661#Comment_3859661
Not sure if you've ever reported survivors for working with the killer but in my experience nothing is done about that unfortunately. I've spent time recording and uploading info several times and working with the killer has consistently never resulted in even a slap on the wrist. I'd be surprised if anyone has ever been banned for that offence.
This feels like a bannable action by the survivors since they were working with the killer to force the player into a loss.
But others here have said it's not bannable. I don't know that I would bother to report this, but I do wonder why the survivors wouldn't get a brief 'slap on the wrist' ban for it. Sounds like you've tried and the team reviewing it in the past didn't care?
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@MvHoeller said:
I now had three matches with the Trapper, three matches with Wraith and three with Hillbilly. There was no 4k slugging, no dancing moves and no other kind of toxic gameplay but I made a few Moris. I even played against streamers. I even had the chance to make a Mori and I didn't just because I didn t want to. I don't care about 4k and I play the game just for fun. Match started at 01:57:00
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2331727622
And I m sure noone was offended in any way by me and I wasn't offended by anyone of them. Just plain simple.
But maybe some people feel just offended when they lose a game and try to blame it on another reason.
I'm glad you play in a way that avoids a lot of bm. The game needs more positive players :)
The issue isn't about redirecting some feeling of being offended when losing though. It's about how things are done that lead to a win or loss and how it's treated afterward. Victory dances are generally bad sportsmanship in all competitive activities, especially when they're shoved in an opponent's face.
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@MvHoeller said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859094#Comment_3859094
I think we're playing two completely different games. I can't even make a connection to anything you say here. Or maybe I'm just in a completely different MMR. I just had a game as a trapper against a 4 man SWF (all of them over lvl 50 and one even 100) and there wasn't a bit of toxicity in it. 2 of them died on the hook, the other two I had the last generator repaired. When the gate was open I knocked down my obsession with Rancor and she stayed in front of the open exit, while the other surv noded the whole time. I moried her the other one nodded again, made a few crouches and escaped. Nobody, but really nobody was offended here. Neither the Survs about my Mori, nor me because one of them crouched twice or more times. Or because of a snowball in the face. Everyone had between 30 and 50k BP in the end.
And what there is to this so-called “endgame ability to wiggle off for dramatic endgame escapes” that you keep mentioning is beyond me. I've never had a case where it was fun if you don't reach the final hook in time. This only happens when the map is extremely large, the RNG handicaps you, you are constantly bodyblocked by the others or every hook is sabotaged. In any of these cases, you're more likely to feel screwed of your success and I doubt that would be fun for any killer and adds more to toxicity then a Mori or a Crouch move.
Maybe everyone who is so easily offended should start a petition for BHVR to release a LEGO version of DBD. Then instead of playing against Michael Myers, Freddy Krueger and Pinhead, who could probably kill you, you play against Gargamel, Lord Farquaad, Prince Hans and Dick Dastardly and then everyone has a cup of tea by the exit gates at the end.
Just because you played a single match without any toxicity doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The finisher mori forces the last survivor to watch the killer gloat over their downed body. And so often I've seen killers waiting out any obstacles just to get their victory dance, even picking up the slug and moving them to a spot where they'll give a better view of it. It's a built-in victory celebration that they force their opponent to watch.
Regarding endgame escapes, I've definitely had matches where I've wiggled off as the last survivor and made escapes to an already opened gate or hatch. And certain perks make it more likely (e.g. Boil Over, Power Struggle, etc.). I'm sure all of us have also dropped survivors at endgame to chase their teammates, defend a gate, etc. That also leads to scenarios where wiggling out and escaping as the last survivor is feasible. That's mostly gone now since the finisher mori means the killer doesn't have to try to get the last survivor to their last hook. Survivors are being denied perk abilities and basekit abilities all so the killer can do their victory animation. As far as when playing killer, I typically get into my lobby and congratulate my opponents when they pull off exciting escapes. Why would someone feel like escaping is toxic or 'screwed them out of their success'?
Also, what are you talking about with the LEGO thing? I'm suggesting BHVR try to encourage sportsmanship and less toxicity in their game, not make a game for children.
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@Equinox_One said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3859567#Comment_3859567
Are you bonkers?
Kindred is incredibly common in SWFs. Very strong perk due to killer aura reading.
BHVR are not going to balance SWF and solos differently. They've said this repeatedly.
Killer doesn't actually win more. Regardless of your sarcasm, it's a logical fact. That stat is, out of context, misleading.
Solos don't need buffs. What solos do need is an easier way to find groups.
Killers typically have a win rate that's higher than survivors. Survivors have win rates on average below 40%. However, typical killers tend to get win/draw/loss distributions that land around 50/20/30. But that can vary per killer, per player, and per MMR/skill level.
But the game is intentionally designed in a way so that killers are winning somewhat more often than they're losing on average.
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@H2H said:
You can have a 60% kill rate with a 20% win rate. You can have a 60% kill rate with an 80% win rate. They are two different numbers and people should stop using them interchangeably. It’s disingenuous and muddies the conversation.
I think that would lead to a scenario where most matches are ties (2k) in order to preserve the 60% kill ratio. That would translate into a nearly 0% loss rate.
I guess you could also have 20% of matches leading to 4k, very few 3ks, and then more ties and losses than wins. Does the math work on that (I don't feel like working it out at the moment)?
Anyway, I think you're right that it complicates the discussion. Still, I think the number of matches that end in a 'win', 'loss' for each side is typically relevant to these player experience conversations.
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@BorisDDAA said:
High ping killers getting rewarded with bs hits is also a major fun killer.
It's great when your feet are on the ground across a dropped pallet, sometimes with a stunned killer, and then afterwards you take a hit ;)
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Posted without quote for post below this one. Couldn't add quote for some reason, so deleted :)
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@H2H said:
Kill rate and win rate are not the same. A 60% kill rate is not a 60% win rate.
I think I remember seeing an analysis of how this often plays out. Iirc, it's like 50% wins, 20% ties, and 30% losses. That's only 30% losses.
Obviously this is going to depend on the distribution of those 60% killed survivors in individual games, so for specific killers that distribution of wins/ties/losses can vary. Not saying it's good or bad, but that's what I remember.
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@Peanuts said:
As a solo and average survivor (1000 hours), I stopped due to the tunneling and slugging.
I get so frustrated from most games. All usefull perks are nerfed because of SWF abuse.
People keep asking to nerf SWF but they don't realise that most nerfs impacts solo survivors experience and new players.The current pool asked if you would recommand the game to friends.
I would discourage them to play.Yeah, I'm playing the game less than I used to also. The amount of tunneling, proxy camping, and slugging for 4k make it pretty rare to get a decent match. And in a lot of trials, I kind of wonder why I even started it up.
I answered those questions in the poll honestly, also indicating that I wouldn't encourage anyone to start playing the game anymore :(
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@Na1ts1rhc said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858496#Comment_3858496
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858299#Comment_3858299
I think this is exactly why BHVR made moris basekit. Whether they are going to sell them or not- it is nice seeing them more often. It's a shame all the sore loser survivor players are trying to get them removed from basekit because they don't like that killers can do they little dancey dance when they win now.
It's not really about people being sore losers, and more about people not wanting a mechanic that provides a built-in victory dance. Teabagging and that W+D thing are already bad enough for the game's health, but the finisher mori is like BHVR saying the W+D thing isn't enough and they want to make the community more toxic by making those celebration dances official. And unlike in the case of teabagging, the targeted player can't just force the killer out or walk away. Instead they're forced to watch the killer do their victory dance.
Beyond that, the finisher mori has taken away survivors' ability to wiggle off for dramatic endgame escapes, which are some of the most memorable. It also provides an incentive to slug for 4k, which is one of the most problematic things in the game since it's done somewhat commonly and causes a long, drawn-out hunt that goes on while the last survivor has almost no chance of escape and the third survivor is forced to just lay on the ground bleeding out the entire time. It wastes the time of multiple players. Hatch was literally implemented to prevent something that the finisher mori now incentivises.
I've also seen a number of killers find themselves with two downed survivors not far from each other, so they hooked one of them and then repeatedly hit the survivor on hook to try to get them to go next and let the mori happen.
And it's not like the finisher mori adds to the horror in the game either. A depiction of a murder can be gory and grotesque, but that's not going to bring back the horror and anticipation that a lot of us felt during chase when we had just started. I think it took me around 300 hours for my heart to stop pounding during chase. It's really just an animation that some people enjoy watching, but isn't going to bring back that initial feeling of horror. And if that's the case, why not just go watch it in the killer selection menu?
Really, the finisher mori gives an animation that some people find fun at the cost of promoting toxicity by creating an official equivalent to teabagging at gate, giving the killer a basekit ability to deny abilities from survivor abilities and perks, and encouraging slugging for 4k and certain other toxic behaviors. I play both roles and I see the finisher mori as an overall negative addition to the game. As killer I find it pointless, and as survivor, I see it as toxic for the reasons listed above :(
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The length of the survey was prohibitive for me. My case was special though as I wanted to answer the survey but needed to prepare to have a surgery done on me... so I skipped a bunch of questions.
I think multiple shorter surveys spread out a little in time might be more approachable.
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@hermitkermit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858463#Comment_3858463
If the goal were solely to end the match quicker, being sent directly to a hook might seem like a solution, but that approach fails to address the larger issue: slugging circumvents the core gameplay loop, and takes away player agency for long periods of time. It rewards more than it requires. Introducing anti-slugging is about maintaining player engagement and preventing exploits of the games mechanics. If they were going to remove slugging completely I would be entirely against it, as slugging is sometimes the right call. But it’s meant to be a tool, not a crutch. But I don’t believe that’s what they are going to do, likely they are simply putting limitations in place to avoid exploitation, again just like cool downs or limitations/requirments on perks or items. Sacrificing something in order to get something else is not a new concept at all to DBD. Anti-slugging measures don’t change the fact that killers can still secure their wins if they don’t rely on it too heavily. Perks, add-ons, items, and tactics should enhance gameplay, not dictate it.
I do feel full-team, long duration slugging has a single specific reasonable use case. If a team is busy focusing on making me unable to put people on hooks by having 3 or even 4 players all run flashlights, sabo, head-on, etc., AND if I've put them on hooks and they continue to do this to the exclusion of getting gens done, I'll become inclined to slug them all and not pick up.
Bully squads are rare, but I'm unfortunately willing to sink to their level to ensure they don't get rewarded for their behavior. I think this should be a consideration in what to do about slugging. Having said that, I generally never do that, even if I accidentally slugged a whole team. They all go on hooks unless they're clearly a bully squad. Sometimes I'll even let the fourth one wiggle out so we can keep playing :)
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@PreorderBonus said:
If you think the player count is dropping, just wait until the FNAF chapter releases. I’m 100% sure the number of players logging in will break the servers
The FNAF chapter should come with a temporary Freddy buff for irony/puns.
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858725#Comment_3858725
I get kindness, ggs, and sweet interactions even if I play super hard all the time. People just want a chance to play the game. Actually I think it's gotten better over time since you can't lose pips.
9/10 times I am not getting toxicity as Killer, I am getting it as Survivor. And when I do, it's usually from other Survs. Have you noticed this?
I also usually don't get much bm from survivors. It might be because I don't do any of the behaviors a lot of survivor players consider bm (tunneling, camping, slug for 4k). So I normally get positive post-game interactions.
Of course, players' opinions on whether those behaviors are bm can differ, but either way, I agree about bm from survivors. The W+D thing or hitting on hook from killers is definitely less common than teabagging.
It often gets me ggs, 'you're fun!', etc. too. But occasionally a survivor whose team got 4ked too fast will pop in and say something ridiculous, like 'Nobody will ever love you.' I just write those off as someone who needs a minute :)
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@SidneysBane1996 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857573#Comment_3857573
I used to think DBD was toxic.
Then I looked at how nasty the TCM community is,
Agreed, the DbD community is actually pretty awesome. I used to play LoL, but got tired of the amount of toxicity in the community. By comparison to league, DbD is like a friendly, supportive book club.
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@Berienn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858460#Comment_3858460
what? do you understand that as killer you do not share any goal with survivors in the first place?? not youre trying to flip the situation or what?? you don't even understand what i'm saying….
I understand what you're saying: You're suggesting that because the killer's goal is to kill the survivors, they should do it by any means available.
But that disregards the gameplay experience of the survivor who gets slugged in the slug for 4k, and even the last survivor to some extent. This isn't flipping the situation at all; just addressing the impact of certain player actions on other players in the game.
@Equinox_One said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858235#Comment_3858235
Except that one is proportionally way worse than the other…
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858444#Comment_3858444
There is nothing wrong with slugging. It's an essential part of the game. I'd love to be able to just send survivors to the hook/cage but it's not going to happen.
The problem is BM slugging and bleedouts, which are very rare and also on BHVR's radar to fix. The problem is that attempts at fixing this before wound up breaking the game at higher levels of play, where slugging is an absolutely crucial part of the game.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858460#Comment_3858460
Stop, you're getting straw all over the place.
Slugging is fine. Bleeding everyone out to BM is not. Slugging for the 4k isn't nice, but it could be ended by the last survivor just giving up and not wasting everyone's time.
Also, this isn't a misrepresentation of any argument (i.e. it's not a strawman). This is just an analysis of the impact slugging for 4k has on the enjoyment of players in the game.
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@Berienn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857969#Comment_3857969
when you play as killer, the other 4 are your enemies, just like 5 guys from other team in counter strike or idk valorant. sure you play WITH them as in the same match but they are not your teammates. your job is to kill them, put them down, not let them escape. you should only care about that. ofc sometimes when you see survs are just playing around, doing dumb stuff so you play WITH them making more points etc. but most of the times survivors are your enemies as killer. killer's job i to put them down and not letting them escape.
So what you're saying is that I should pursue my goal in any setting regardless of what the people I'm sharing it with think?
Please don't respond by saying 'it's the killer's goal'. I'm interested in the answer to that exact question. If I have a goal, should I pursue it regardless of what other people feel or think about my approach to achieving my goal?
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@Berienn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857974#Comment_3857974
and killer's job is to make sure survivors cant escape… if that require slugging one guy then i'll do it every single time.
The comment you're responding to was explaining that sometimes hiding is alright. Why are you informing me that you'll slug for 4k in response to a comment that indicated reasons why people will hide?
I can make irrelevant comments too: Sometimes the snoot is too tempting. If I see a Pig, I'll boop the snoot every single time.
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@Equinox_One said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858151#Comment_3858151
Teabagging or just waiting in the exit gates is pretty universal BM. You're going out of your way to waste the killer's time in order to rub a victory in and gloat.
Again, go ahead and document it for yourself.
Take BMing killers (hitting on hook, bleeding out etc.), multiply that number by 4.
Compare this number to how many times survivors sit in the exit gates.
I'd say at least 3/4 my losses has at least 1 survivor doing that.
Waiting in the exit gates is only bm if all survivors are in that gate and don't come to poke you when you get there or give you items.
If one survivor isn't out yet, most survivors will also wait to go for the save, or even try to take up the killer's time by making the killer force them out so the last survivor has some extra moments to get the other gate open. And in solo queue, they really can't always know if the other survivors are at the other gate. If they wait there, don't teabag, and not all survivors are at that gate, they're likely still trying to help their teammate... or say hi :)
Killers bm all the time though. It's hard to get a game where the killer doesn't either tunnel, proxy camp, or slug for 4k. Personally, as killer, I only bm bully squads…
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3858280#Comment_3858280
The worst part is BHVR directly told us that slugging wasn't a problem before the finisher mori, and now we have a bunch of people complaining that the finisher mori is causing way more slugging… and now slugging might need to be nerfed?
Like, this is totally a problem BHVR created themselves, and now killers might need to be nerfed because of it? How is that fair? It would be better to just get rid of the finisher mori, so slugging can go back to being "not a problem".
Agreed.
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@Berienn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857937#Comment_3857937
stealth is one thing but hiding like a p**** is just toxic as much as slugging and not killing is.
Hiding to evade the killer is a method of trying to enable an escape, either for the hiding survivor or even for their teammate. The last survivor in a slug for 4k situation will very often hide while sneaking to the slug in order to get the save.
And sure, on rare occasions, the last two survivors will both hide for hatch, but as killer I almost never see both doing it. And as survivor, I'll hide to get a moment to get my bearings, and then go do gens. I rarely see the last two survivors manage to hide for minutes at a time. And even if it happens, killer instinct kicks in to prevent a long hide-and-seek match.
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@Berienn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857955#Comment_3857955
but playing killer is playing against other people not with so as killer why should i care about what survivors think. if i won against 4 people it means i was better or they made some bigger mistakes.
Playing a game 'against' someone is included in the term 'playing with' them. You don't say 'I played Scrabble against my friends'. People instead say 'I played Scrabble with my friends.'
It's not reasonable to interact with other people in any setting and not care about what they think. We can think other people are wrong and even discuss that with them, but expecting other people to do the courtesy of interacting with us while we disregard their thoughts and feelings is very self-centered and unhealthy.
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@PuddleOfBludd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857170#Comment_3857170
Yes, I did. You are not going to convince me that somebody loads up a game and thinks about what fun the strangers that they get paired with are having. That’s just not happening.
I care for the feelings and opinions of others every time I interact with other humans in any way.
Caring for the feelings of other people is a fundamental life skill that heavily impacts anyone we interact with, and which has an effect back on ourselves as a result.
If we don't care for the feelings of people other than ourselves, and just do whatever we want even if it causes other people to endure needless negative impacts, then those people we interact with will have a worse time. When the enjoyment of the community decreases, more people are likely to take the same approach of not caring, or even just abandon the community entirely. If we care about the feelings of other people though, it will have a positive impact on our community, with more people wanting to make their interactions with other people into more enjoyable experiences. The community is lifted up as a result. It happens in the game and in broader life :)
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@Berienn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3855900#Comment_3855900
first of all you have to accept that hatch causes slugging for 4k…slugging for 4k is used to avoid 4th surv escaping ;)… and in most cases that 4th guy was just hiding somewhere, letting his team die. no, im not gonna let anyone escape when i play killer, my job is to make sure noone escapes… i don't care what you think about what is win or what's not. there are 4 survivors and one killer, means 4 survivors have to die. IF YOU DON'T LIKE LONG GAMES WITH HIDE N SEEK then don't hide until 3 teammates are dead XD. if you rly want that hatch then earn it. you don't deserve hatch if you can't survive without hiding. we play for points, points are for objectives like helping other survs, repairing, sabotage, looping and leaving killer, stunning killer etc. not for hiding. noone cares about your feelings and your opinion, devs created slugging mechanic and hatch to use it.. you don't like it?? then don't play this game because people will continue hiding and leavin their teams to get hatch, slugging and being toxic and all you can do is accept that or uninstall dbd
I see that you said 'no one cares about your feelings and your opinion".
That's a very unhealthy approach to any interaction with other people. If someone doesn't want to care about the feelings and opinions of other people, they shouldn't be playing games with other people.
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@bleep275 said:
I just had a singularity run a full slugging build with slugging addons. Not a single hook. just slugged and BMd us on the ground. two people bled out, one was moried after being humped for several minutes and the other got out via gate. this was in the christmas game mode.
That's sad. I just did a four winter hook challenge and spent the rest of the match ambushing survivors from stealth with snowskulls. I hope you get a killer like me for the event some time :)
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@MvHoeller said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857507#Comment_3857507
But this is a problem with slugging, tunneling and proxy camping. Not with Moris. The game offers enough opportunities to wiggle free and make dramatic escapes throughout the game. At some point this should come to an end that the killer doesn't become a laughing stock. And like in any good horror movie, the protagonist escapes a few times until it finally ends in a bloody climax.
So for me it's the other way around, even though I'm playing Survivor. I'd prefer it if the killer could mori everyone after the second hook and there were four different moris, because I'd rather see a mori animation before I end up on that stupid hook. Thats why I would like to see a way to get different moris for the killers.
That makes sense. Some people have suggested making the finisher mori skippable by the survivor being targeted so that if they feel it's more like bm, they aren't forced to watch it.
I think if they did some tweaks like that and maybe making it so the mori had to be done next to a hook so wiggle chances aren't negated, it would go some way to fixing it.
There is still a problem that it incentivises slugging for 4k by hiding a mori behind a 4k. And some people suggested that it probably doesn't make slugging for 4k any more prevalent than it was before, but there are players who openly admit that they'll be sure to go out of their way for the mori. In that sense though, solving the issue of slugging for 4k and making some tweaks to the whole thing would make it pretty balanced. Solving slugging for 4k doesn't seem to be a high priority for BHVR though :(
Edit: I also realize that sounds like a lot of things, but I think there's a monetary incentive in it for BHVR to take those steps. They could indeed set up a mori shop, but then it's also in their interest to keep players who feel like the update is having a more negative impact happy. A few if statements in the code and some debugging/playtesting should do it without too much effort, and probably maximize profit.
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@Huge_Bush said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857290#Comment_3857290
Or the Survivors just seriously misplayed.
I was able to slug 4 people at 4-5 gens with Trapper because some of them just kept rushing hooks before I even left the area and another would keep trying to blind me.It’s not always Killer OP or Matchmaking Bad (though I do think MMR could be improved), a lot of times, the fault is on Survivors for making the wrong choices, not because they weren’t skilled
It definitely happens both ways. I've occasionally full-team slugged a non-bully squad with Pig. That shouldn't even be possible.
Of course, I don't let them bleed out if that happens. And if it happens early in the match, I put some of them on hooks and then let one wiggle off so we can have the rest of the match...
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@Na1ts1rhc said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857482#Comment_3857482
I apologize if you are genuinely hurt by being called a dork by a fellow dork on a video game forum.
Personally I'd put tea bagging at the gate above mori-ing. Moris are for survivors as much as they are for killers - just a silly lil' couple second animation that shows off (arguably) the entire point of the game and that is the cool horror characters you can play against/as. I did just make a comment today that tea bagging is a part of the charm of dbd; these days I see it more as survivors saying goodbye or gg and I'll stand by that. How ever it does stem from toxicity. It's not just misconstrued as toxicity it was born out of being toxic. I see moris as a final handshake between killer and survivor, at the same time I'd understand if you see it as a spit in the face especially if the killer player does all sorts of underhanded tactics in order to get you there. But its arguable that they are equally just as bad seeing as survivors can use underhanded tactics as well to be sure they can sit at the gate a tea bag you. Either all of it is ok or none of it is ok- and regardless people will continue to do it. So my point is; just get it over with and move on to the next game.lol Thanks for the nice response. Genuinely appreciated 😀
I always drew the distinction between toxicity and friendly teabagging at a few crouches. If it's a few quick ones before an exit, the meaning is normally clear.
As far as the mori, I'm always up for a good bit of gore in my horror media when it makes the horror experience more immersive, but moris never seemed to have a purpose in DbD. I wasn't a fan of the finisher mori when it was released, but started getting used to it. But then it became a common theme to see slugging for 4k followed up by mori; tunneling, proxy camping followed by mori. It's started to feel more like a way to cap off matches where survivors are forced to endure several minutes or entire matches where they're tunneled, camped, slugged for 4k, just to have the killer be able to force them to watch them do their animation.
I also wish it didn't take away the ability of the last survivor to wiggle free and go for rare dramatic escapes to hatch or an already open gate. I mean, when it was an addon, it made some sense to me that some abilities could be denied in that way. But I think there should have been some way to preserve those rare wiggle escapes; they make for some of the most memorable endgames on both sides :)
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@Na1ts1rhc said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857464#Comment_3857464
Built in victory dance is nice especially after you've been dealing with this for years.
Just take the loss and watch the animations dork. It's what we've been doing
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/L74C247AHKHC/dbd-survivor.gif
I play killer all the time too, and I agree teabagging at the gate is annoying. But it's not even on the same level as having someone slug for 4k then have the ability to force the survivor to watch while they show off after they made the survivor bleed for several minutes. It's like the goal was just to add toxicity to the game.
Both are problems, and the answer isn't to add more of the same.
Also, thanks for calling me names :)
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Also, I support reverting the finisher mori update. Don't make built-in ways to show off on top of your opponents even more common. If we think teabagging is an issue, this is like company-sponsored teabagging.
It would also be great to give back the ability to wiggle out at endgame for dramatic escapes instead of just expecting a slug for 4k->mori loop in so many games now.
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@Na1ts1rhc said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857454#Comment_3857454
Fair enough. I do notice a lot of killers my gf goes against are typically vanilla. It's still not the worst idea in the world to make alternative moris purchasable but BHVR has a little more to worry about before they try to push another way for them to farm credit cards. I'm sure a majority of the fan base would be upset they're selling moris and not fixing the game
I don't like a lot of the alternate killer skins... except lobster Dredge... It's like revenge for all the cooked crustaceans.
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@apathyinc said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857039#Comment_3857039
It matters because we are playing an online game against other humans who expect players to participate in normal gameplay. If this was a tabletop game played in person, you would never be invited back to play again.
Agreed.
In the last couple weeks, I've been hitting a point where a lot of times I think about playing survivor and just don't because somehow a lot of people think it's okay to force their fellow players to get chased and eliminated all game and nothing else, or to play bleedout simulator at 2 survivors left. Then they make sure to wait for the mori just to ensure it's clear they've 'won'.
BHVR should probably do something about the game's health.
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@SpitefulHateful said:
Stop looking for wholesomeness in Dead by Daylight or from people in general. What are you, six?
Many adults enjoy some wholesomeness from time to time. I think it's usually appreciated when it happens in DbD too; I know a lot of survivors like to boop the snoot!
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If you've closed hatch, there shouldn't usually be a bleedout timer going. Did I misunderstand this?
Edit: nvm, I see the responses below mine. Yeah, if someone slugs for 4k, they should expect this.
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@PuddleOfBludd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3856979#Comment_3856979
in my experience on both sides of the fence, the only time it EVER becomes a 90/10 is when the survivors are going out of their way to not do generators and attempting to BM the killer constantly. I have had games as survivor where my teammates decided that that was what they were going to do rather than doing objectives and then they aren’t happy when the game goes to #########.
and forget about even video games or anything else like that. We can go with the board game monopoly, when you land on a space you’re not thinking about whether another person is having fun because you bought the property they wanted. You’re not thinking about somebody else’s fun in any game you’re thinking about your own fun. Survivor mains seem to think that killers should play in a way that is beneficial for them. So as long as all four survivors are getting out, then the killer has played correctly, but if anything happens that doesn’t allow them to just do a generator repairs simulator then they classify this as toxic. So basically, if you’re not allowed to win all the time, the killer is toxic because you have some unwarranted ego that makes you think you are some god tier survivor that should be escaping almost every trial. When you are reminded that you are not as good as you think you are, your resolution to this is the claim it’s toxic. Get over yourself.
Did you say that people aren't thinking of other people's fun when they play games with other people? Is that a typo or maybe I read it wrong or something? I'm genuinely asking.
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I've been running around with Pharmacy so I can open chests faster and give things to other survs or stack them up at the gate :)
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@Tamo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/431054/cant-take-the-tunnelers
I won't elaborate on all you've already said, I agree fully though. It's nice to see another opinion of the same. This event has sucked just like DbD for months if not years now, it's steadily been getting worse & I can't take it anymore. I get fed up in games & if I am one of the last two if I had to bet on it I'm usually the one waiting forever on the floor just to get Mori'd. It's just not fun anymore. I hate how much time I've put into this game, we're not going to talk about the money either. My heart goes out to you.
Agreed about those feelings of things going downhill. It feels like tunneling and slugging for 4k are out of control, and then the last survivor often gets moried just to cap off a match that makes me wonder why I started up the game. I think I've only played a few hours in the last week as a result, and more as killer than normal because I don't want to deal with things like that. It's like after countless hours in the game, I'm being told that now it's a different game.
As killer, I treat survivors how I like to be treated, and it's sad that I find it refreshing to see a killer who doesn't tunnel or slug for 4k. But when it happens I always tell the killer they're awesome, regardless of whether all survivors got out or if it's a 4k. It's a serious minority of matches :/
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3856933#Comment_3856933
I think part of the issue is that a win/loss isn't clearly identified after the match so a win is up to the individual to interpret it as a win. For example some feel 3k is a win based on MMR going up as a result. Some feel 4k is a win based on the bonus BP and achievements 4k results in. Some even believe 2k against a 4man swf is a win as they stopped the whole team getting out. Survivor are the same, some teams believe they win by getting everyone out. Some believe they win via hatch (even tho it doesn't count positively for MMR) some even believe it's a win if they can simply loop the killer the whole match and be the sole survivor. Some people believe a win is getting most BP score post match regardless if they survived or not.
Very true. This is why I often write 'win' and 'loss' in quotes.
My feeling is that this isn't a game about winning and losing in some conventional sense, but about having fun in the experience of playing the game. It does lead to conflicting pictures of what's fun though :/
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3856981#Comment_3856981
That's why the survivors are doomed. I'm a winner in any case. Even nerfs can be used to your advantage, like in 2020 ;) A jar of spiders won't suddenly become funny killers.
You judge by yourself, but you don't take into account that the game is filled with people like me on the killer's side. This is where all the problems and misunderstandings lie. I only see people like you on the forum, not in the game. So we will continue to suffer without a solution to the problem...
(Probablycampahook. And I think most survivors aren't going to complain about tunneling if it's only done during egc. They've gotten to play a full match at that point and will recognize that exit gates are 99ed, so an unhook can easily mean an escape.)
There's only one problem with your equation. It's profitable to eliminate the survivor as early as possible. Nothing personal, just business.
All the current killer has to offer.
It's tunneling the first survivor and playing 9 hooks. Sometimes it's double tunneling and finishing off the 2 remaining survivors.
4 minute slug without hooks. After 4 slugs, everyone gets 4 hooks instead of 12. One hook per survivor if they survive. I've met strong survivors who chase almost the entire 4 minute timer of their friends.
I tried Babysitter on myself during tunneling. It helps a lot with tunneling. I could feel the power of Babysitter. It's a shame that survivors are so selfish in this matter.
(But beyond that, I don't think we should be trying to get people to delete the game.)
Have you played fighting games? To fit into a group, you'll have to train hard because all your opponents are more skilled than you. Otherwise, you'll just be a punching bag. Deleting the game would be much more merciful. I didn't say that out of malice. I just don't want people to suffer. It won't get any better.
Which fighting games do you mean?
Also, I play a bunch of killer; there are some of us who play the way I describe. Though I'll admit that bets are off for bully squads… they get approximately the treatment you describe :/
Generally, I think that a perk shouldn't be necessary to counter a basekit ability of the opposing side. Once items, perks, and add-ons are included, then yeah, perks can be a good counter. But tunneling is very effective in removing at least one player from the game in almost every instance. And it still makes the match awful for the targeted player a lot of the time. I guess the question comes down to whether the person doing it cares about how their target feels.
But you're right about tunneling for multiple gens. Tunneling executed poorly can be a mess against a good looper. But I have to say I rarely see a survivor loop well enough against me that I think they'd keep me occupied for more than one generator duration. Though that can mean three gens pop against a very good team. So it's really critical to end the first chase before a gen finishes, or at worst, as the first one is finishing.
Oddly enough, normally I feel a little jaded talking with people expressing the same opinions as you're currently expressing. But for some reason I like your posts. Maybe it's because you're explaining in a very non-confrontational way, or you're taking the time to really express yourself. Anyway... 🙂
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857021#Comment_3857021
I had some good ones also, had one turning into a snowball fight.. it was really fun :D
But yeah, i dont tunnel off the bat, but as you say… it can be provoked. - As well as with slugging.
lol same here. I will get aggressive back at bully squads though. 4k against them gives me a mixture of 'good… you're all slugged now' and 'why are there matches like this?'
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/431054/cant-take-the-tunnelers
After doing my survivor and killer challenges, i decided to play some freindly killer, so in one of the games. A survivour kept BMing me, for no reason. And at some point i decided to end his game, - I tunneld him, because of what he did (actions have cosequenses).
So the remaining survivors decided to hide for 15-20 minutes, once i got them they got to bleed the rest of the game, the endgame chat was not pretty, - apperently its only fun when they dragged time for 15-20 mins, but when i did it for 4 mins, it was toxic.
- According to them.
I'm always against tunneling without something that provokes it, but it sounds like that person was asking for it. Sorry you had a bad friendly match :(
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@Raptorrotas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3856971#Comment_3856971
The best part that it's only expected of killers to be mindful of the other team's fun.
This is false. People don't like bully squads for a reason. The only reasons they're talked about less than certain killer tactics are that they're less common than things like tunneling, slugging for 4k, and proxy camping, and they tend to lead to wins for the killer since they're not doing gens much. Personally, I kind of enjoy bully squads since I usually get a 4k against them :)
All players are generally expected by the community to consider the fun of other players. And honestly, that should be the expectation of any person playing any game with other people (possibly with the exception of professional sports). We all play games for fun, so if we do things that make the game unreasonable for other players, the whole goal of the game is gone.
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@Raptorrotas said:
For a 3k apparantly being a win it surely doesnt give a "win bonus" like a 4k.
Complaining about people wanting to 4k is like complaining about wanting to escape once the doors are open.
Its also funny how people are allowed to delay the disadvantageous EGC by 99ing the door but stopping the hatch from opening by the slug is frowned upon, such hypocrisy.
Not hypocrisy at all. The third survivor player in a slug for 4k situation is forced to do nothing for up to several minutes except to stay on the ground bleeding. Meanwhile, the killer is still able to actively play the game and gets an extremely easy fourth kill.
99ing the gates isn't like that at all. The killer is still fully able to pursue their goal.
The difference is how in a slug for 4k, the third survivor gets forced to remain in such a pointless situation and the fourth survivor has virtually no chance at escape, all while the killer is still fully able to participate in the match. When a gate is 99ed, all players still get to participate in their goal with a reasonable chance at success.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3856562#Comment_3856562
If we put aside some points. We essentially want the same thing. The question is only in the methods and the price we are willing to pay for it.
I agree that it is not fun for a tunnel survivor, but if you play for 12 hooks, it will not be fun for a killer. The question is who will suffer? The survivor or the killer? I will tell you for sure that one will definitely suffer. Not me. Nothing personal, just business.
True, now, first of all, so that we understand each other better. We must understand what kind of killers we are. The same question as for the author. What kind of killer are you? First of all, before the introduction, we understand that we have different value systems.
The introduction will be on my side.
1 Constant struggle
2 Patience
3 I am looking for an advantage
4 I will not play to the detriment
5 I want to kill
Constant struggle - I fight with everything in the game balance, survivors and prejudice with witch hunt. The game literally hates killers. You take a killer that you rarely play. The game deliberately sends you to a map that is unfavorable for you with survivors who understand how to play. You take a killer that you are good at every game survivors spam you with offerings of Crow's Eye, Jigsaw Piece and Damaged Photo. I want to take cakes, not Sacrificial Ward which was accumulated in such quantity by 100 prestige. Now in this matter it is better, but not much. Let's add to this that it is not written on the survivors whether they play solo or with friends. When you want to win, you just preemptively hit any lobby of survivors as a SWF squad. Naturally, in such an environment you physically cannot relax and play lightly.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/V14ZJ7IN956X/20230713234317-1.jpg
Patience - I've had games where I literally didn't go from the start. Only unlike the survivors who like to kill themselves on the hook, I didn't give up, but fought until the very end. You can see an example in GeneralV's thread where we talked about Skull Merchant and 3 generators. I posted a video with Freddy from 2022, where I literally killed survivors with 3 generators by sheer force of will and the old Tinkerer. I don't regret the 30 minutes it took me. I have a lot of experience in protracted battles, where I can literally wear down my opponent. I'll have fun during the process. After all, I've acquired my own concept of time that's different from the surviving side.
I'm looking for profit - Let's take slug as a tactic. I literally like a trader compared all the pros and cons of hooks and slug. As a result, slug just turned out to be much more profitable and fun. After all, now I don't have to drill survivors on the hook with my eyes. I'm constantly chasing the most fun part of DBD.
I will not play at a loss - Playing on 12 hooks gives me a maximum of 1 kill with a normal team. While camping, tunneling and slug allow me to kill survivors. However, I do not mind playing on 12 hooks for the corresponding price (kills). I admit that drilling a survivor on the hook with my eyes is not fun for both parties. Only with one nuance, you would rather die than run. Your arguments about fun and the number of hooks have zero value for me.
I want to kill - I am a man of the old faith (August 20, 2016 in DBD on achievements). In my time, killing survivors was not something shameful. You would be surprised by some videos from the developers on the release. Where they offer you a quote. Put them on a hook and them you let them die there or you stick around wait for their friends to come and help and them you grab them too. In private messages I can give that video as proof.
Now let's say I agree that the survivor in the tunnel is not having fun. In response, I ask, how do you want me to kill you so that you enjoy it? The main thing here is that I want to kill you. I understand that you don't want to die, but I still want to kill you. It's just that in case of disagreement, I will do it in other ways that you do not like.
Next, we trade that 2 survivors should die, and the other 2 escape. Then we explain to the 2 survivors that they are dying so that the other 2 survivors can escape. Taking into account the arguments that you are a team that plays for the common good. Then we complete the deal so that the killers do not play for 4 kills, being content with 3 kills, and in return, when all 5 generators are started, the survivors go to the gate and do not engage in rescue actions, giving the kill to the killer. Well, how do you like the plan?
I think it should work like this.
Let's take another example. The hatch question and 2 survivors.
You say I want the basic Unbreakable. I'm fine, but it will only prolong your 4 minute agony. You will rise and fall until all or one dies. Because my patience skill kicks in. Your waste of time is just an exciting hunt for me. Some people like fishing simulators. Here is a similar case.
I want a "die faster" button. Fine, but I will use it for strategic purposes by forcing your teammates to let you down. You will make the slug tactic even stronger. This is where the skill kicks in, it is to my advantage.
True, my hatch solution is like this. I came to the conclusion that we need to shift the endgame collapse. We make fixed gates on two different edges of the map so that it is difficult for the killer to control them. We delete the hatch. When there are 2 survivors left, the endgame turns on. Here is your 50/50 situation. Although I would go further and turn on the endgame after starting 5 generators. Or give me a perk that can remotely open the farthest gates.
In conclusion, I suggest you take these 2 statements as truth for at least 10 seconds. See the positive logical core in the cynical view of these statements. Then you can again consider them terrible and unacceptable actions.
1 By camping and tunneling, I make survivors stronger. Call it tough love, when a mother bird pushes her overstaying chick out of the nest. Because survivors will have to become stronger or delete the game. As a result, when I go to play solo survivor, my team will consist of strong survivors raised by camping and tunneling. Instead of ballast that gets all the buffs in the world, but does not become a better player.
2 Defending 3 generators forced the killer to shift all attention to the generators. In a sense, we defeated camping and tunneling hooks, because the killers did not care what the survivor on the hook did. He only cared about the generators. If we continued moving in this direction. Survivors received less camps and tunnels.
I don't think there's a need for getting 12 hooks, just that people won't want to play the game when they face things that make the game pointless to play. There's very little someone can do if they are tunneled; they don't get to participate in the game except to be chased and eliminated, which isn't the expected gameplay loop.
The devs may have originally supported camping before realizing how little fun it is, but the introduction of anti facecamp shows that they understand some things will make the game worse. The thing is that survivors have very little they can do to a killer to prevent them from playing as expected. The killer always has the ability to pursue survivors. The best play survivors can generally make is to spread out on gens. Even bully squads are typically ineffective at stopping the killer. But the killer has multiple actions that make gameplay rather miserable for survivors, and tunneling is probably the one most able to do that.
Also, tunneling won't do much to make survivors better at the game. I'd suspect tunneled people are much more likely to give up on hook and just quit caring about any match where that's happening. Also, tunneling is likely to take place alongside the killer running straight to the unhook, leaving the targeted survivor unhealed. So unless an auto-heal was used, the survivor will get less time in chase this way since they're still injured. So they even get less practice looping than they should.
And don't get me wrong, there are times whe these things are likely to be reasonable. Have no kills and egc is triggered? Probably camp a hook. And I think most survivors aren't going to complain about tunneling if it's only done during egc. They've gotten to play a full match at that point and will recognize that exit gates are 99ed, so an unhook can easily mean an escape. If there are flashlight saves, flashbangs, hook sabos? Slugging might get more reasonable since you'll pobably down two people instead of one. And if there's a bully squad? Probably a slugfest...
But beyond that, I don't think we should be trying to get people to delete the game. People play games for fun, so we should probably pursue a game state where all players have a chance to enjoy their match, even when it doesn't go their way. I know that personally I never say gg to killers who tunnel, camp, or slug for 4k because they've taken actions that make the game easier for themselves at the cost of the enjoyment of the other players. But against killers who play without those tactics, I'll almost always give a gg and even compliment their gameplay and have a nice post-game chat, even when I get sacrificed or even in a 4k because everyone got to play an enjoyable game.
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@PetTheDoggo said:
All the killers I've played against have had the exact same strategy Sulg the 3rd survivor to looking for 4th survivor
I highly doubt that.
Some? Maybe
Most? Unlikely
All? ImpossibleMy experience is that it's most killers doing this. Not all, but most. It makes the game as survivor pretty unbearable a lot of the time.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3856507#Comment_3856507
For the team. Isn't it honorable to be the sacrificial lamb who saved his friends? At the end of the day, the survivors are the team. Well, what if the tunneled one's mind is "better him than me". The other 3 survivors aren't busy with the generators at this time and are thinking about how to make sure that only I survive. I have bad news for you.
It's not a pity to die for a good team. I would gladly die for survivor 26 if the other three escaped. I think survivor 26 was happy with the result.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/GFTSG2GAU8EK/131220240001.jpg
But does the tunneled survivor usually get to enjoy the match? I know I don't find it fun in any way, and I suspect a lot of people feel the same. Maybe we should do a poll on this in the polls subforum; I don't want to assume I speak for everyone.
In any case, if the tunneled survivor isn't incredible at looping, the killer is going to have them out pretty fast, even while they spread some pressure on gens as they wait for the unhook. With a bit of slowdown, this can make a 1v3 pretty effectively, causing the match to become nearly pointless for the rest of the team. I personally play a decent amount of killer, but I would feel awful doing this to anyone outside of a bully squad. The opposing side should get to enjoy the game too :)
Either way, I appreciate the genuine comment (rather than the typical "But it's the killer's goal!")