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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865588#Comment_3865588
It's funny how much our playstyles mirror xD
Amusingly I've been playing a lot of Hag today... it's crazy cause I never enjoy facing Hag cause they all camp and tunnel, trap the balls out of hooks and wait for someone to trade only to tunnel out anyway....
But I really enjoy maintaining a Web of traps and putting them in weird little off the beaten path places where survivors don't immediately think to check...and I've been avoiding tunneling players and instead gone spreading hooks, and I never trap a hook. Maybe a path to hook, but never the hook itself... also screw Rusty Shackles xD
M&A, Coup, and Surge have been doing heavy lifting. 4th perk I haven't decided between Make Your Choice, PWYF, Batteries Included, Forced Hesitation I've been trying, and they all work, but only so so value...
Anyway, I've had this weird run of games where I keep encountering BGP flashbang squads... I dunno if some content creator has done something with flashbangs lately... but I've faced at least 4 duos and trios all with flashbangs...
Has been amusing cause after a point, I have been trapping either side of me before I go to pick up,and cause Hag traps yoink your camera, their BGP runs them off course suddenly and completely messes up the save xD
Bully squads man... will they ever truly die? XD
Bully squads… Bully squads never change... something something Fallout...
Kinda awesome that you can get built-in blind protection! As far as perks for her, someone made me laugh once by suggesting Franklin's on Hag so she can trap the dropped items... survivors should see it coming, but it's funny :)
Interestingly, all this talk of adepts made me decide to go for my Pig adept today. So I popped her three perks on, and ended up having one survivor eliminated, one who was having a bad match, and two others with one or two hook states each. I slugged the one who was struggling so she could get picked up and back in the match, but ended up putting the other two on hooks before they got to her. I felt like I slugged for 4k even though two were still up when I left her on the ground. It was a weird match :(
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865387#Comment_3865387
Thanks man, appreciate that 😅
Just wanna go on record as saying much love and respect man 😁
That's a fair enough perspective and I think you're spot on, we agree on pretty much all major points. The only point I think we differ on (and even then only slightly), is while we both agree its mean, unfun and lame to slug for the 4k (I don't do it unless I really have to), I don't see it as a heinous action to necessarily be ashamed of.
At its purest DBD is a simple premise. The survivors need to repair the generators and open the gate to escape before the killer kills all of them. That is the most basic rule of the game, survivors try to live, killers try to kill everyone.
Now I personally like to create a game where everyone is having fun for the most part. If survivors make a horrific mistake I will punish them, but for the most part I'll avoid playing mean and try to make a decent game of it. Sometimes I get my ass beat and I have to start playing nastier to pose a reasonable challenge or punish an obnoxious play style, but mostly I play pretty chill... but this mindset comes with the knowledge that playing this was is not the most effective way to win... and I will reiterate, I don't think it's fair to demonise the killer for playing what they perceive is the best option to win.
With that in mind, lets look at the issue with hatch with a hypothetical where we force hatch somehow. Doesn't matter how really, lets just assume we force it. In this case, it doesnt matter how much better the killer performed than the survivors, doesn't matter how much pressure, control, fast chases they pulled off, the game will always result in the same... a hatch showdown. The issue is hatch is not a test of skill for either side it is pure RNG who gets it. It takes the killer from a place of winning the game by complete domination, to losing the 4k through absolutely no fault of their own. Obviously we could throw up challenges and adepts to defend it again, but if we focus on the pure game, hatch is literally a dice roll or a coin flip at the end for the killers game to determine if they won the 4k or not...
Now where I think you take the stance the killer, knows they are doing something blatantly unfun, boring, annoying and upsetting to the survivor side, and yes they are absolutely aware of that. Based on that logic they should not do it... and I do actually agree with you, I don't do it either withoit very good reason... but in the same breathe I acknowledge that I'm basically saying "don't try to win", which if we're honest, is not really fair to say to killer players..
The flipside perspective is the very concept of hatch is exactly the same for a lot of killers; unfun, boring, annoying and upsetting. It takes all the killers work and says "none of what you've done over this game matters, the survivor can still get the right RNG and escape. You only got a 3k". It's easy to say "well a 3k is a win still", but that is kinda irrelevant, we all understand 4k is the killers objective, and the killer has to literally make 2 separate coin flips (hatch, then gate) to win it...and I think any reasonable person can admit... that does suck. For that reason, while I do accept slugging for the 4k is a little selfish and lame... it's also kinda selfish and lame to say the killer MUST play this RNG coin flip if they ever genuinely want to secure a 4k... someone has to lose, and I guess it's up to the player which side they fall on.
The unfortunate case of hatch is it's a necessary evil that becomes very hard to balance for, because fundamentally, it is a pretty BS additional step placed on the killers win condition... however without it the game suffers more overall... and in the same way, slugging for the 4k being completely removed would make so many killer challenges absolutely insufferably annoying, and basically make genuinely going for the 4k pretty pointless…
That's fair. It probably also helps that I don't really see a difference in my matches between a 3k and a 4k. In my eyes, both are good performances on my side. It also probably helps that I run BBQ on a number of my builds, so I often hook the third survivor, then run straight to the fourth, down them... and then probably carry them to the hatch :)
Oddly, sometimes I like survivors to know that I'm letting them go, hence downing them first, or just winning hatch race and waiting not far from it to see them off. There are cases where I'll see someone is having a bad match and just 'miss' attacks and stuff, but I like to have that 'handshake' at the end of the game.
And I totally get the need to occasionally pull the kid gloves off and hit back against a bully squad. The only real counter I have for a very talented bully squad is to slug them until I think nobody's around for a save. That's why sometimes I'll pump the brakes on my ostensibly survivor-sided arguments and say that there are some things we just need to be careful about.
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@beater15 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865512#Comment_3865512
I agree that both new and skilled players' experience should be taken into account to improve the game for everyone, and the game should ideally be balanced around all skill levels. But hiding MMR gives too many players an ego which leads to very narrow minded thinking, and it's impossible to convince a lot of people despite them being wrong on some facts.
That's interesting. I'm concerned with the opposite thing, where people with high MMR become listened to much more than everyone else. I guess both things are issues though :/
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@beater15 said:
I haven't realized what a widespread problem this is until Otz released a video earlier today on Xenomorph. He recently came out with a tier list ranking Xeno about mid tier which apparently was "controversial", many people thinking Xeno is in a higher tier or better than it actually is.
Here lies the problem and this is a great example, because these people have never faced a top MMR survivor team that's able to properly counter Xenomorph. They never played against teams that place turrets in the most inconvenient spots (for the killer), survivors who know the map inside and out, survivors that know how to dodge the tail attack despite how "uncounterable" some people say it is. If you've played Xeno against a really good coordinated team you know what I mean, and you know Xeno is definitely not "top tier" like people claim it to be.
Most people haven't reached the hard cap on MMR, but this type of misinformation is spread and accepted in this "bubble" of thinking within the community. And don't get me started on the whole "MMR is a myth" topic, it's been datamined and there are clear soft/hard caps, most people might get to the "gold tier" of ranks but don't reach the absolute max MMR where you face the real sweaty teams.
To put this all bluntly, most people's opinions don't matter, and they don't know this because they think they're playing against the best players. Maybe it's an issue with MMR and the whole matchmaking system too, but at least MMR should be shown to people for an ego check (for lack of better words).
Most people's opinions do matter. Just because someone isn't as good at a game as someone else, that doesn't mean their opinion is invalid. They might be wrong about a fact, but that doesn't mean their experience isn't important.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865423#Comment_3865423
question goes: why do you want hatches to remain a thing?
They are outdated.
They encourage slugging for 4k.
They are completely RNG dependant (unless you use an offering).
You are basically acting like hatch removal is nothing but "nuh uh killer buff" and not health related QoL change. No problem, people can keep slugging for 4k, don't get mad if you don't want the core of problem to be fixed.
Hatch isn't the reason why people slug for 4k. That's like saying cars cause carjackings, or laws cause crimes, or email causes phishing scams.
Slugging for 4k is possible because hatch exists, just like crimes can only exist if there are laws, carjackings can only happen if there are cars, and phishing emails can only go out if email exists.
But cars don't cause carjackings and laws don't cause people to do the things that are crimes, and email existing doesn't cause scammers to exist. In the same way, hatch doesn't cause slugging for 4k. Those things happen because of the motivation of the person taking those actions; they're looking for a certain result that they would seek even in the absence of cars or laws or emails or hatch. Slugging for 4k is possible because hatch exists, but hatch doesn't make people slug for 4k. Slugging for 4k is caused by people wanting an easy fourth kill.
And what would happen without hatch? Then when the third survivor is gone with at least one whole gen to go, there is essentially no hope for the last survivor to finish the gens and escape. But they still want to survive, so they'll often end up hiding for as long as possible. Hatch exists to prevent exactly that scenario: it's meant to give the last survivor a reason to keep playing and to avoid a long game of hide-and-seek at the end of the match. What do you want in place of hatch?
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@CursedPerson said:
My guy you got to summarize the 30 minute video…
We could all have a class about it... there could even be a quiz!
Edit: Also want to note that I'm not criticizing the video or op's post. I might watch bits of it, and it's likely useful :)
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@Nick said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865199#Comment_3865199
There's a solution for people not being good enough at looping.
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. Is this in reference to the bit about tunneling?
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865289#Comment_3865289
I have to correct you there, slugging for the 4k is absolutely a byproduct of hatch. It was prevalent before the Finisher Mori, and it still is now. If you have a challenge, or an Adept, or some other 4k condition you have to satisfy, the only way to do it reliably to get the 4k is slug for the 4k, if you don't then you risk losing the 4th survivor to hatch.
Imagine if survivors after powering and opening the gates were each blocked individually from leaving until they touched the exit line, which would then spawn a gem somewhere in the map that they then had to run back to and interact with before they could leave. That's effectively what hatch is to killer, an additional layer of busy work that can just screw you out of a win that you have no control over.
I agree with you the hatch is necessary because without it, the survivor game can quickly fall into no hope situations, e.g. 2 players die with 3 gens left to go, that's a dead lose situation, so there is no point continuing to play... but because of hatch we still have a game, though unfortunately this also leads to the 2 players hide permanently situation... but the point is the alternative in a hatchless world is survivors just give themselves up to die when the game is unwinnable, or more likely hide until the server death.
However, the goal for killer is to kill all 4 survivors, and you can't blame killers for trying to complete their objective. Its literally the point of the killer game. Hatch how it is now is an additonal obstacle for the killer, where you can lose the last kill in a game you are winning by complete rng. If you've ever tried to get all adepts in the game, slugging for the 4k is a necessary evil you cannot avoid acknowledging, and a variable you have to diminish as much as possible. Even if you find the hatch first, you still haven't won, because the gates are powered... so that's 2 additional methods you can lose the 4k that slugging for the 4k circumvents... and as I day, there is nothing inherently evil or wrong about the killer wanting to 4k, every aspect of the game rewards you for killing all 4 players with MMR, points, end game ratings, lore, challenges and achievements all affirming 4ka, not 3ks.
So hatch is a problem... yes it's a necessary component of the game, but one that makes it so that slugging for the 4k is also a required part of the game. The two go hand in hand.
A skill based hatch is an interesting idea, but the main thing those set of changes has to achieve is to make it so the killer has a better chance of catching the survivor before they reach hatch than they do slugging to prevent it spawning at all... so you need a strong incentive to play hatch, and a strong decentive to leaving a 3rd payer slugged.
All the Finisher Mori has done is put a spotlight on an existing problem in the game, and in my experience slugging for the 4k is no more conmon than it was before; the main thing that has changed is very few people give hatch anymore...
And tbh, as a horror fan, I kinda like seeing the mori as a survivor... and if they add new equippable mori's to the store for each killer (and/or improved the animation on the older Mori's), I'd be much more happy to be Mori'd.
You're right that slugging for 4k couldn't exist without hatch, and I think you and I essentially agree about some fundamentals, and only disagree about some definitions or preferences around some stuff :)
I think you're right that slugging for 4k can be considered a byproduct of hatch. But it isn't caused by hatch. Hatch is a tool/exit path/obstacle depending on who's looking at it. But on its own, it doesn't cause slugging for 4k. I'm not expressing disapproval at you or anyone in particular, though I have to say I'm very tired of hearing people say hatch causes slugging for 4k. That's like saying cars cause carjackings, or laws cause crimes, or computers cause phishing scams.
As you mentioned, slugging for 4k is a byproduct of the existence of hatch, just like crimes are a byproduct of laws, carjackings aren't possible without cars, and phishing emails can't go out without computers. But cars don't cause carjackings and laws don't cause people to do the things that are crimes. In the same way, hatch doesn't cause slugging for 4k. Those things happen because of the motivation of the person taking those actions; they're looking for a certain result that they would seek even in the absence of cars or laws or hatch.
I think the ability to bypass hatch is a severe flaw in its design as well. Slugging for 4k is currently a basekit ability of every killer. That realistically means that hatch may as well not even exist since any killer can just force the last survivor into that same situation hatch is meant to prevent. I play killer a lot too, but I see hatch more like a very reasonable balancing mechanism than an obstacle in any way. Anyway, that last bit is just an opinion. But I think hatch doesn't cause slugging for 4k; slugging for 4k is caused by killers being willing to slug a survivor to push the last survivor into the hide-and-seek match hatch was made to avoid.
Also, thanks for the comment; I tend to respect the things I see you say around here :D
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865189#Comment_3865189
I feel like that's more about how unlikely saves can be during endgame. If I'm playing Bubba for example, I can have a HORRIBLE game but goodluck getting the save if someone is hooked at endgame.
That's very true. I play Pig more than any other killer, and if a team has four gens done, a Pig hat might go on some unfortunate soul. There's essentially no way to escape that if the Pig just follows you around once the last generator pops :(
I will also say that's very rare as well. I'll usually have secured at least one kill before all the gens pop. And I don't like camping a bear-trapped survivor… feels rude :/
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865209#Comment_3865209
That's a good point, and it's something I've thought needs to be addressed for a long time. I think there's often a pretty big disconnect with how the developers view the survivor role and how the community views the role. The community seems to view it as more of a team-based PVP game, whereas the developers seem to view it as a survival horror individual experience where you may or may not work with others. It leads to some seemingly bizarre design decisions.
It's sometimes hard to think of DbD as a 1v4 team-based PVP when you're going in solo queue. Although I do risk my matches to get endgame saves and keep death-hook survivors around, I still see it as an individual survivor-based game whenever I'm not in a swf.
That might be the result of having a group of complete random survivors whose trustwothiness you can't know. I've even had some duo teammates tell me I should just escape instead while I go for ridiculous endgame saves, but then I go for the save anyway.
As a fun anecdote, one teammate I was in a duo with got eliminated along with one other, and the third was on a hook, but I had opened a gate while the person on hook had looped our Oni around prior to getting hooked. The Oni was camping the hook and my duo teammate told me I should just leave. But instead I baited Oni's power out and got the unhook. I still went down in the end, but my teammate got out, and we nearly got two out :)
But that means even my swf teammates and I are on different pages with regard to our solo teammates. I'm not sure how the community as a whole sees it.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865273#Comment_3865273
Hatch is what leads to slugging for the 4K which is the criticism that Finisher Moris have. As long a hatch is an RNG mechanic that can gift a survivor an escape by being lucky, killers will feel forced to slug to earn a 4K.
But hatch doesn't cause slugging for 4k. That's like saying laws cause crimes because if there weren't laws, people wouldn't have to commit crimes to circumvent them.
Really, hatch and the finisher mori aren't explicitly related. The finisher mori simply gives a killer and extra reason why they might want to go to whatever length they they need to get the free mori. That's a flaw in the finisher mori design though, not in the design of hatch.
Generally, hatch isn't a problem at all. Killers who often slug for a 4k will say that to justify slugging for 4k. But hatch is present explicitly to prevent the things that slugging for the 4k causes: a long, drawn-out game of hide-and-seek that can last for several minutes and wastes time, and a hopeless situation for the last survivor that realistically is a forgone conclusion in the case of a slug for 4k situation. Slugging for 4k leads to that long drawn-out endgame that hatch was meant to prevent, and generates a situation where the last survivors are almost guaranteed to lose.
As you mentioned, some people don't like that getting hatch is essentially random. And it could be that finding some skill-based mechanism to get or deny hatch would be useful. That would need to be very carefully balanced to ensure that the last survivor has a real reason to play out the endgame across all MMR levels, which is quite challenging. Without hatch though (or some similar mechanism to give the last survivor a reason to try at the endgame), we would likely see a very large fraction of matches ending in a long game of hide-and-seek.
We could trigger the endgame collapse as soon as there's one survivor left, but that would lead to the same complaints since the door spawn locations and the specific killer being played would often determine whether the killer can get the last survivor. But if we didn't have any realistic escape mechanism at the endgame, there would be essentially no point in finishing most matches where all the gens don't get done.
Ultimately though, hatch is very useful for the game's health. But with some effort, a skill-based hatch system could be implemented that might satisfy some people who don't like its rng nature. I worry about balance across MMR levels in that case, but multiple extensive PTB tests could help with that.
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@Crowman said:
The finisher mori is not the problem. It's hatch.
I wrote some big long response to this, but I want to ask why you think hatch is the problem before writing things so that I'm not making assumptions. Why do you think hatch is a problem?
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Honestly, all these things are true. The game is simultaneously 1v4 and four 1v1 games. A survivor escape is very reasonably a win for the survivor in question, and a team escape could be taken by some as a win for the team.
But BHVR doesn't define that explicitly and I think it's for a reason - they want each of us to enjoy the game as much as possible on our own terms.
In terms of the discussion of killer win-rate, I think what I mentioned above is true: killers generally win more than lose by design. And the win condition is a little more clear-cut for killers, but not completely so. When I play killer, I see a 1k as a fine outcome for myself, though 1k is quite rare for me and means the survivors did a great job. But most of the community takes a 3k or 4k as a win, 2k as a tie and 0k or 1k as a loss (because that's how DBD's MMR handles matches).
In the end, I think op is making a good point when viewed from the perspective of many killers: the discussion can be vague because the win condition isn't well defined. Personally, I think we should all just take the win condition that we find good for us while playing in a way that doesn't make the game insufferable for the other side. I think I saw someone else here recently say that as killer, when they stopped pushing for only wins in the sense of a 3k or 4k, they had more fun and started developing more skill since they were able to relax and think during the match, getting better at mind gaming and strategy rather than raw mechanics. I find that to be true also. I've had a few times when I just pushed hard for win streaks, and I don't think I develop a lot of my skill while I'm forced into nonstop gen-defense. But I've gotten opportunities to try new tactics and learn interesting new instincts that I might not have if I were always just chasing a certain way on certain killers.
I guess all that is to say that while win conditions are something to talk about, discussions about wins can and perhaps should also include discussions about playstyles. And that's especially true in the sense that since there is no true official win condition, our primary concern should be how we all enjoy playing the game. And we can kind of choose our win conditions to ensure that we're all enjoying the game, ourselves and our opponents :)
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I think that's just flawed game design. You're not wrong about an early sacrifice becoming hopeless fast. But the survivor players should always be able to go for surviving and not just give up.
My approach to that is that as a survivor, I'm always trying to make sure my teammates have a chance at hatch or a gate, very often being satisfied if a teammate escapes instead of me because I took aggro or unhooked in a crazy situation.
Having said that, I think the ability of survivors to get through their teammates' mistakes or a tunneling killer isn't strong enough. A game can easily become hopeless on the survivor side if one teammate makes a mistake or just isn't strong enough at looping and the killer decides to tunnel them out. And the whole team is just stuck in that situation for the rest of the game.
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Something interesting about this topic to me is how extremely low the loss rate tends to be. As killer, the number of matches I expect to see with a 1k or 0k is very low. And 0k honestly almost never happens to me.
That tends to make me feel like killer is by far the more relaxed and easy role. Even against teams with all strong loopers who split up on gens, I'll almost always get at least a 1k. And more often than not, my matches end with 3k or 4k. Though I do admittedly often give hatch or the gate.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3865048#Comment_3865048
lol wow.
Well, since we're here, Im still confused what it means. Lightborn just makes you immune to the blind effect, always and forever, right? What does distance or duration matter in this? Am I reading this wrong?
Op meant they wanted to extend the duration of the brief blind immunity during locker pickups. Distance sadly had nothing to do with it :(
I just wanted to say something dumb, hence asking for distance :)
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/428601/okay-flashbang-needs-a-nerf
I wanna draw attention to this line. I can't understand it so I need some help.
make lightborn longer
What does this mean?
I see that op answered your question, and that this post is several months old, but someone resurrected the post and I really like absurd things that appear to have no meaning... So I'd like to second op's suggestion.
I say we make lightborn longer, like, 17 meters longer.
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@Na1ts1rhc said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3864816#Comment_3864816
Just two fine folk having opinions huh…
I will say something that I probably should have said earlier. I'm all for letting survivors skip the mori animation and head to the lobby quicker. That seems like it could really benefit everyone. Killer is happy they got to see their cool lil' animation and survivors who have seen that animation 6 times that day can skip out on it an go next. Nothing wrong with that. How ever I still don't feel the mori is equivalent to tea bagging. It is definitely gratifying as a killer player to be able to see your killer do something cool at the end of the game, maybe more so than the survivor player who worked hard to prevent that. But I've said it before - I will always feel like the mori is more of a handshake meaning "gg glng" as opposed to tea bagging which has always felt like "gg ez gfys". Again these are just our opinions but there's a reason to have an open discussion about them. People should want to understand the other perspective not just scream in vitriol about how the other side is unfair.You're definitely right that a lot of people also enjoy having access to their moris, and even some people enjoy watching them as survivor. Personally, I don't even use moris as killer since I have that view of them.
I think enabling skipping the animation would get people like me more on board with the finisher mori though. There are also people who are quite concerned that the finisher mori is encouraging slugging for 4k, which I tend to agree with; some people who like to see their killer's mori will be inclined to slug to be able to do it. My feeling is that I've seen more sweaty games and also fewer killers giving hatch since the finisher mori update. Admittedly, some players who like seeing their mori still won't care enough to slug for 4k, and others don't like slugging for 4k and won't do it. That all is kind of to say that you're right; the playerbase has a diverse set of opinions, and it's useful to talk them out :)
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@VibranToucan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3864941#Comment_3864941
damn, pendantic much? Its obvious that I meant killer and just didn't put all my attention into a random comment on forums.
Sorry, didn't want to assume you meant killer instead. I'll look for some examples and update once I have some time :)
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@VibranToucan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3864842#Comment_3864842
No it doesn't. There is no reason to value that little animation so much. Also, feel free to link me the posts and comments from these Survivors.
Which survivors do you mean?
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@CursedPerson said:
Don't even worry about it just tunnel, proxy, and whatever to get your achievement. That way you can go back to using perks you want and playing how you want without getting frustrated
I think that's unhealthy for the game. Adepts don't have any meaning, especially if they're done without players becoming skilled with the killer in question, instead playing in a toxic fashion just to get something to show up on a small corner of a profile. Having an adept on a killer should be a sign of skill with the killer.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3864820#Comment_3864820
Did you see me type that or are you just putting words in peoples mouths/making assumptions to fit your appeal?
Mori is an ingame mechanic. By itself, it’s not toxic. Slugging isn’t toxic. Proxy camping isn’t toxic.
A simple mori isn’t “showing” off anything. Whether you die on a hook or by the killer makes no difference. The killer is completing their objective. If they wanna see a little reward animation for it, so be it. 🤷🏼♂️
I did see that you typed that that moris are like teabagging at gate; you said the feeling from being moried is the same as when people get teabagged at the gate. But teabagging at the gate is taunting and/or gloating. And taunting and gloating don't have a place in games. That's why I asked if that's what you meant :)
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I just want to see the puppet's unique running animation during chase.
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@VibranToucan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3864616#Comment_3864616
A mori does not encourage slugging for the 4k. Nobody cares for seeing that little animation for the millionth time.
Also, slugging for the 4k pretty much never ends with bleed out. Usually the killer picks up and hooks the Survivor last moment for pips and bloodpoints.
The finisher mori definitely encourages slugging for 4k. By granting the finisher mori only when just one survivor is left in the match, the finisher mori discourages putting the third survivor on a hook, because that makes it much more likely that the mori won't be granted since a 4k is almost guaranteed when a killer slugs for 4k. There are also people here on these forums who have admitted that they're more likely to slug to get their mori.
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3864355#Comment_3864355
It’s the same feeling when you get bagged at exits gates by the survivors. Moris are fine.
Did you just say it's fine for people to taunt their opponent when they win a game? I imagine that's not what you meant?
People choosing to taunt or show off when they win a game is very much not fine in any environment and is extremely unsportsmanlike.
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@Na1ts1rhc said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3864355#Comment_3864355
That's like… Just your opinion man. There's not even a hint of disrespect with the mori(s) - it's something both sides can enjoy. Where as teabagging is born from disrespect. The two are not comparable.
That's just... your opinion too.
You're right though, the two aren't comparable in an important way: While both things are actions taken by one side that essentially let that side show off once that side has won the game, in the case of the finisher mori, the losing player is forced to watch the opponent show off their win. But with teabagging, the people doing it can be forced out of the match or the losing player can just choose not to watch it. So moris are inherently worse than teabagging since they force the losing side to watch the winning side show off their win.
Forcing your opponent to watch you do a victory dance on top of them once they've lost them game sounds very disrespectful to me.
The finisher mori has also given the killer a basekit ability to deny the benefits of perks and gameplay for survivors, and has given an incentive to slug for 4k. It has essentially only negative impacts on gameplay all so that we can bring official victory animations into the game.
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@JPLongstreet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3864514#Comment_3864514
My poor Amanda Panda's blades are so scuffed from smacking rocks, trees, walls, thin air, anything but a surv! I must be doing it wrong not taking full advantage of this abuse thingy...
I have occasionally tried hide behind the bar on Ormond or Dead Dawg, or the concession stand on Greenville and see if I could pop up just as survivors are passing by. Then Amanda's blades have taken some abuse on dishes, counter tops, popcorn machines or beer taps :/
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@MrDardon said:
I think we should remove the Killers Terror Radius. It's pretty useless because you can already see the Killer, oh and while we're at it, we can remove the Red Stain too because as Survivor it just looks ugly.
So for the same reason we should also remove Scratch Marks and Pools of Blood from Survivors. They're red so it would be fair to remove them because we're removing the Red Stain.
Lets also remove 2 Hook States because it prolongs the game unnecessarely. This will also remove tunneling because you can't get tunneled since you instantly die now. Having 3 hookstates causes headaches because you have to remember them all the time.
Since we are making games shorter now, how about we make them even shorter so people don't have to spend more useless time inside a match. Killers can now Mori Survivors as soon as they're downed.
If we're removing red things, we may have to remove my favorite killer! 👉🐽
Also, your approach to solving tunneling is innovative and I would like to hear more.
Personally, I propose removing the left mouse button from the game. Gens, healing, and attacks should be removed in favor of a more meme-based system.
Also, at first I totally forgot that op wrote that the post was part joke... 🤦♂️
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@Gunshow said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3864355#Comment_3864355
I thought I'd see you here! 😂
lol It would be uncouth of me not to show up to one of these posts ;)
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I agree with op. In the time since the finisher mori was released, I've come to find them more like officially sanctioned teabagging :/
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@Tsanders said:
A killer can't tunnel someone out if their teammates work on gens and leave them on the hook. By the time they enter hook stage two you should have had plenty of time to knock out three gens before trying to help.
I don't play killer often but there have been quite a few games where I hook someone and try to go find another survivor, not intending to tunnel, but then another survivor comes by for the unhook before I have a chance to take 10 steps away from the hook. In situations like these you are just handing a free hook to the killer.
We can blame killers for being sweaty, but sometimes it is your own team that gets you tunneled out. You got 70 seconds on the hook but they want to see how fast they can get you down as if that left over time somehow carries over to the next hook.
It does surprise me when people don't give the killer time to get away from the hook before unhooking. I almost feel like people who do that don't play killer much.
The killer is looking for gen pressure, so they'll need to go find another target for chase. During that time, the killer likely expects to have the survivor they just hooked incapacitated for a little time. If a survivor is unhooked right next to the killer, the pressure they just worked for is lost, but a new target for chase has their location suddenly known since the unhooker is at the hook. I'll usually wait for enough time so that when I get to the hook, the killer should be away looking for a new target…
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Same here. When I think of playing survivor now, I just feel like the negatives outweigh the positives. But playing killer is alright, so I'm kind of a killer main lately…
I've been returning to some old post-apocalyptic survival games recently too, so that's fun. I'm a big fan of State of Decay 2 on lethal mode with super dark nights. Packs of blood ferals at night are like DbD on overdrive: run or hide, but don't let them get close ;)
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@VibranToucan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3863620#Comment_3863620
I have literally never seen that idk what game you are playing.
They can make themself unhookable once and often use that time to escape. Sure it is exciting when they can wiggle free and escape, but the killer will usually be aware that they would wiggle free before that happens and just bleed them out. That is literally my point. The mori system changes that.
It is not a celebration. if you get hooked for death you are forced to watch you flying off into the sky as well. Moring is not any more toxic than hooking. It is just the killer using an effective way to end the game.
Good killers will not risk that tho. If they know the survivor would wiggle out they rather let them bleed out than risk them escaping. Well at least they did do that, before the mori system fixed that.
Hey, if you hook the last Survivors they watch the entities claws kill them and drag them into the sky. You are also forced to watch something kill you then. Morying is just a more convenient way of doing that.
I appreciate this discussion. I think we're drilling down to some details now :)
I want to take the time to respond thoughtfully, but have to do other stuff first. I'll update later, but I wanted to say I appreciate the discussion for real :D
Edit: Promised response -
I've seen that happen multiple times, as well as killers waiting out anything in the way of getting their mori, whether it's bleedout timers or survivors on hook.
A survivor is generally not very unhookable if they can wiggle free once. That's what makes those wiggle escapes so exciting - the killer will almost always get the survivor back down, at which point it's easy to hook them. So getting a wiggle-out that leads to an escape is fun to see on both sides for me.
I have to say that bleeding someone out to prevent an escape doesn't involve talent. I'm not going to wait out a bleedout timer just to get an extra kill. Whether a killer wants to drop a survivor and wait out their bleedout timer has more to do with whether they want to make everyone do nothing for a few minutes when they could instead be spending that time on their next match.
A lot of killers do like to use their mori animation. You'll hear that around these forums and see it in game. The problem is that they're forcing the survivor to watch them celebrate. We can say all we want that it's not a celebration, but that's like saying that doing a special dance after winning a game isn't a celebration. It's distinctly different than the hook animation which is rather neutral, and doesn't involve watching the winning player doing something to the losing player. Instead, the player-to-player interaction is done, and the death animation that follows doesn't involve either side doing something to the other side, which is fairly ideal for reducing any tension a player might feel.
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@VibranToucan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3863518#Comment_3863518
The mori is not a reward, its literally the same thing every time. It offers nothing special, its no different than a hook.
Sometimes the last Survivors is just in a bad spot to hook and all gates are closed, sometimes the Survivor is on the ground and the only gate that is open is across the map.
In a game about a killer killing people, trying to act like your having sexual intercourse with another player is definiteless less appropiate than the killer killing someone.
I also love how you both try to argue that there is no reason for the killer to go for the bleedout on the last Survivors if the mori was a thing, but also that the mori should be removed for the cases where you may be able to wiggle out.
Moris arent a celebration of victory, they are just a quick way to end the game.
Again, if there well less hatches given we should see a rise in 4ks and a drop in 3ks while no change in 0k, 1k or 2k numbers. Show me those numbers.
So what? I don't think every change should make dbd more bloodpumping.
-They were easy, but compared to other killer dailies they were annoying. Now they are even less annoying. We all know griding sucks. This makes it easier.
-There are plenty of scenarios where you cannot hook a Survivor by picking them up. A short list of examples.
- There are two Survivors left in the trial. You know one of them has Flip Flop and Power Struggle from earlier and the other Survivor has background player. All gens are done, but no gates are open yet, tho one is 99%. You down Survivor A in a pallet. You see Survivor B nearby and not wanting to get pallet saved you manage to down them and then hook them. Survivor A refuses to leave the Pallet for the remainder of the trial and bleeds out there.
- A survivor runs boil over and is down at the very end of the lab room in underground complex and no hook happened to have spawned in the lab room.
- A gate is open across the map. You are carrying a survivor but the hook becomes sabotaged, you drop the Survivor, you scare away the remaining Survivors out of the trial. The slugged Survivor cannot reach the gate in time, but you know they have enough wiggle progress if you pick them up, they will wiggle out.
- A Survivor runs power struggle (reveleaed earlier in the trial) and gets downed on the game in one of these corner loops between two pallets. Neither pallet has been dropped yet.
It's odd that the mori is nothing special and is the same as a hook when I've seen killers go very far out of their way to get a mori. I've definitely seen killers slug for 4k, catch the survivor going for the save, put one of them on hook, then hit the survivor on hook until they were gone so the killer could get their mori.
Survivors cannot be made unhookable. The most a survivor can do is wiggle free once, which typically results in the killer downing them again, at which point it's easy to put them on a hook. However, in rare instances, an exciting play used to happen instead. Now that can't happen for the last survivor because of the finisher mori.
Teabagging is clearly used as a taunt or celebration by the survivors doing it. They tend to do it when they know they're safe from the killer, especially at the exit gate. Sure, if done on top of another survivor, it can be considered a representation of something else, but that's almost never done. The way it's used functions exclusively as a taunt or victory celebration. The finisher mori is quite similar since it gets done only once the killer has defeated the last survivor, and the losing player is forced to watch the winning player do their victory animation. It doesn't save much time at all, but instead acts as a way for the killer to show off their win instead of hooking the last survivor. Though I'll admit that it does help the killer deny the situations you mentioned; and it seems like a strange addition to the game to give a player the basekit ability to deny other players the benefit of their gameplay or perks.
Also, there's almost never a reason for the killer to fully bleed out the last remaining survivor. They can escape the killers grasp generally once at most. If the hatch is nearby, the killer can close it first. If an open gate is nearby, the survivor has managed to get themselves into a situation where they likely deserve the escape.
The only time I bleed survivors out is in bully squads, when it's clear that if one survivor wiggles out, they could pick up the whole team via something like WGLF and start the cycle of bully attempts over again. But that is very different than forcing the last survivor to watch an animation showing that they lost :/
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@VibranToucan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3862974#Comment_3862974
The finisher Mori doesn't really encourage slugging for the 4k. Sure, if it's your first time ever winning on the killer you might want to see the Mori but other than that people don't really feel like wasting minutes of their time for a 10 second animation they can see whenever they want. You are talking about Endgame escape situations but if the last survivor made themself unhookable most killers would just have gone for the bleed out instead of just giving up hatch so it's an improvement.
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You comparing the finisher Mori to a tbag when those are completely different in every aspect.
- Representation: Tbagging and humping are meant to represent doing s*xual actions on the other player, meanwhile the finisher Mori literally shows the killer killing someone.
- Time: If you tbag or hump someone you are wasting both your and the other players time to be toxic. Going for the Mori on the last survivor is usually faster than picking them up, finding a hook, hooking them and then letting the animations finish.
- Intention: Tbagging and humping is intended to make the other side angry. Mori is literally just done as a quirky way to end the game. I have literally never seen anyone before now who considers going for the Mori to be more toxic. This sounds entirely like a you issue. You remind me of the guy who said bringing bloody party streamers is toxic.
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I have no seen any change in how many times I have been given hatch since the finisher Mori was implemented and I have yet to see a substantial increase in 4k Rates/ drop in 3k rates to prove it.
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Idk when you started, but I started in 2023 and I never perceived dbd as a scary game. Sure jumpscare Myers got me a few times, but I was never really scared of trapper or deathslinger or skull merchant or whatever. Dead by daylight isn't really a scary game.
Now with your points addressed let's talk about positives of the Mori system:
- Challenges are less annoying. In the past the best way to complete a Daily Ritual or Tome Challenge to kill Survivors by hand was to bring an expensive Mori offering. In addition to needing bp and relying on the bloodweb, it meant you couldn't bring any offering you might want to bring, mostly blood point offerings. Now you can complete these challenges without that or even easier if you do bring this stuff.
- Unhookable survivors are less annoying. Relatively early in my dbd I got against survivors who brought ebony hook offering and the last survivor managed to keep going down in the corner. Playing for the win, I just bleed them out. This situation would not be as annoying without the finisher Mori. There are many similar scenarios where the killer has essentially won, but the last survivor is unhookable for some reason. Before it would have been optimal for the killer to just go for the bleed out. Now they can actually legitimately win the game.
The finisher mori absolutely incentivises slugging for 4k since it can only be performed on the last survivor in the match, and can thus be obtained more often by slugging for 4k. It absolutely incentivises slugging for 4k by hiding a prize behind getting the last survivor, which is trivial in a slug for 4k situation.
You also suggested that the killer could just go for the bleedout during endgame escapes. But that's not possible in cases where a wiggle-out would lead to an escape through an already open gate; the survivor would just crawl out of the gate. And survivors cannot make themselves unhookable now that hooks respawn.
Those "representations" you mentioned all sound pretty negative to me. How is one worse than another, other than the fact that the losing player has to watch the mori? Also, all three of those things are done in DbD as victory celebrations.
There is also relatively little time difference between carrying someone to a hook and doing a mori. And by not carrying the survivor ro the hook, the killer is given a basekit ability to deny wiggling out and perks like Boil Over or Power Struggle, which seems rather unfair. If I want to deny survivors those benefits, it seems like I should bring a perk or an offering to do it.
Celebrations in most games are indeed considered toxic by most players, and are often frustrating to the losing side. And moris are a celebration for the killer. Making the losing player watch a victory celebration isn't part of gaming, it's just bad manners by the person who makes the other players watch their celebration. I've also never heard someone say a celebration by the winning side of a game that the losing side is forced to watch is fun. Must be a you thing. I know most people I know would stop interacting with someone who forces their opponent to watch them gloat when they win at games.
I have seen almost zero hatches given since the finisher mori update was released, a significant drop since the time before it was released.
It was never a scary game, but a lot of people did feel tension during chase in their early days. I'd imagine most people stop feeling that tension anymore at some point. I remember that happened for me at a few hundred hours. I never really found it scary either though; it just got my heart rate up during chase, but that was the closest thing the game had to being scary. Moris aren't going to bring that back though.
Now with your points out of the way, let's talk about the things you said are positive about the finisher mori:
• Challenges to kill someone with your own hand are pretty easy if you bring an ebony mori. I personally have always left those challenges undone though since I don't like forcing my opponents to watch me do celebrations on their downed bodies. There's usually another way to get through a tome anyway.
• Unhookable survivors aren't a thing anymore. Hooks respawn now.
There is essentially no benefit to the gameplay by having the finisher mori. Instead, it introduces almost exclusively negative effects by providing a built-in victory celebration that one player can force another player who has lost the match to watch. It also gives one player a basekit ability to deny the benefits of perks and gameplay of other players. It also hides the finisher mori behind downing the last player which is easily done by slugging for 4k, thus incentivising slugging for 4k. We have essentially gained a way to force the losing player to watch the winner gloat while also gaining increased incentives to slug for 4k.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3857482#Comment_3857482
I think your issue lies with slugging for the 4k tbh man... with regards to the Finisher Mori, it might actually be worth exercising some CBT, which is an exercise where in instead of thinking of the worst case scenario, try and think of alternative less destructive thought patterns/explanations.
The Finisher Mori is no different to how Moris were before... unless you held the stance that all Mori's were players gloating, the reality is most horror fans consider the Mori's a cool way to cap off the game, something unique to their killer of choice.
When I get caught as the last survivor, I genuinely think to myself "oh well, at least I get to see the Mori". For me the Finisher Mori actually softens the sting of getting slugged for the 4k, cause we have enough killers now where I still enjoy seeing them occasionally.
The act of slugging for the 4k is action that has far more personal attack to it, as its the killer is literally saying "screw you, sit trapped on the floor while I find your friend". Even if we apply CBT and think this is not done maliciously, e.g its done cause this is the only way to ensure not getting screwed by hatch RNG, its still done with the knowledge its a lame way to secure a 4k, and a very unfun action against the affected player. When I have a challenge to do or an adept, I too slug for the 4k... and I apologise out loud as I do it, because I know it sucks, but its better to play mean once, slug for the 4k and get if over with, than have to keep playing mean every game until the stars align and you get it done.
It's the same thing as saying GG first when you're the winning side. When tempers are flaring and emotions are high, it's easy to take it the wrong way and see it as toxic behaviour... and it can be toxic behaviour... but when you really think about it, majority of ggs aren't toxic, and neither are most finisher moris.
Yeah, I've always found moris annoying, but I have to admit that since they weren't as common before, I didn't take the time to understand why I feel that way. Since the finisher mori made them more frequent, I've had a chance to think about what it is I dislike about them so much. What I've come to find is that moris tend to feel to me like the killer player gloating over another player who just received a poor outcome for their match.
If matches were only a minute or something, like in fighting games where finisher moves also exist, I think it wouldn't be so bad. But my matches tends to be ~10-15 minutes. And forcing a player to watch a victory animation after they invested so much time in a match, and then lost, feels much more like a way to rub the loss in the losing player's face, very similar to teabagging. The problem is that while as killer, I can force the survivors out of a gate, or just ignore the teabagging because it looks dumb, moris are animations deliberately designed to be used when the survivor player has been defeated. So nearly their only use is to force the losing player to watch the animation while the killer player gets their victory animation. (Though, admittedly, they do have a secondary use, which is to deny things like boil over, power struggle, or high levels of wiggle progress.)
I definitely agree with you that I don't like slugging for 4k, and I strictly don't do it unless the entire survivor team is participating in trying to bully the killer. Actually though, there have occasionally been weird scenarios where I down someone, but want to give them hatch rather than their teammate, so I end up slugging for a 3k, then going back to let the slug get up and escape. But in any case, while I think the finisher mori incentives slugging for 4k, I see them as separate issues, just linked because one encourages the other.
Weirdly, when someone gives me a gg when I've had a bad match, I tend to take it at face value. I see it like shaking someone's hand after a match. But I also grew up playing a lot of sports, and learned to never insult my opponent or gloat. So if I end up dominating a game of any kind, I also want to tell my opponent it was a good game :D (Though in DbD, I do avoid being the first to say ggs if my side dominated the match.)
Anyway, I appreciate the comment, and will read it again to make sure I understood it all :)
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@Arbmos1998 said:
Slugging at final two exists because hatch exists. Survivors only finishing 1-2 gens, 3 sacrificed only for the last to potentially get a participation trophy simply because a mechanic what can give them a free escape during their defeat can feel like you got robbed as killer especially if you have outplayed and dominated your opponents.
Even closing hatch doesn't 100% secure you a 4k due to now another chance of escape with 2 RNG exit gates what can spawn on complete opposite ends of the map so to combat this killers slug the 3rd for the 4th. Ask yourself if your team played badly why does one of you deserve a handout win? Removing hatch slugging won't be necessary.
Another reason for slugging for the 4th is a thing is due to the terribly designed killer adepts. Survivor all you need to do is escape either via an exit gate or hatch no gen completion, unhook, heal, chase etc required. You could lay an egg all game, contribute absolutely nothing to your team and potentially get your adept for everyone else doing all the work meanwhile killer a 4k is required, hatch escape happens? No adept for you, you feel robbed as killer.I really don't understand the idea that if someone escapes through hatch, it's a "free escape". The game isn't one player against another equal player, or a team explicitly always against the killer. It's most accurately four 1v1 matches, where the survivors need to work together if they want to get the gens done and have the best chance to survive. But none of the survivors can survive an entire match if the killer just wants them out.
With that extreme asymmetric structure, if some survivors make mistakes, that doesn't mean the rest of the survivors did poorly. I think hatch gives a fair chance for the last survivor to escape, especially since their team can go down without them making mistakes. And it's potentially deserved since killers will sometimes break chase against very good loopers if they're not going to finish a chase in time. I know that if I have one or two gens left and I see two survivors, I might decide to go for the less talented one so I can gain quick pressure.
That means it's not so uncommon for the person getting hatch to have outplayed the killer. Since the other three survivors could have made mistakes while the killer was unable to get the last one (without risking the gens getting done), it's not clear to me why the last survivor shouldn't have a fair chance at escape.
And since the killer is vastly more powerful than any individual survivor, it seems very reasonable that the last survivor should get that fair chance at escaping by an alternate mechanism; otherwise why even bother to play out the endgame? Personally, I view any match where I stop the gens from getting done as a good performance on my side, and whether the last survivor gets out typically makes no difference to me because the last survivor escaping doesn't mean I did a bad job. Likewise, the rng nature of hatch doesn't usually have any bearing on my own performance in a match; it just gives the last survivor a reasonable chance to escape, which seems very fair.
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This wins the best first post award 🏆
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Honestly, I very much want to fight for the finisher mori system to get removed. I can't believe it was implemented in the first place, and I see it as bringing almost exclusively negative impacts to the game.
It provides an incentive to slug for the 4k, which if we're lucky, BHVR will find a way to deal with, but it also gives killers a basekit ability to deny survivors the benefits of their gameplay and perks at the endgame since there's no longer a chance for the last survivor to wiggle off on their way to the hook to make those rare endgame escapes to hatch or an already open gate. I still remember some of mine where I've escaped from a Bubba and managed to loop across the whole map to an open gate, or ended up pulling an escape while running through multiple Skull Merchant drones and getting deep wound while getting to hatch. Those are just gone now.
Beyond that, it provides a built-in victory dance for the player who's beaten the other player (in this case the killer showing off on top of the survivor), so it acts like an official teabag animation that the losing player is forced to watch. And it's not like with actual teabagging at gate, where the killer can force the survivors out or just choose not to watch them do it. I've always disliked moris, but didn't fully understand why until the finisher mori was released for some time. What I've come to find is that I see moris as being extremely toxic since they're essentially built-in teabag animations the losing player is forced to watch.
As a side-impact, there appears to be almost nobody giving hatch anymore. I still give hatch, but I've only seen it done by other people a couple times since the update was released. I'm not saying anyone is entitled to hatch, but it was an act of goodwill between players that's mostly gone now.
And even if it's made into the green mori, there's still potentially a possible incentive to tunnel to ensure a mori is gained. I really don't see any way how a basekit mori system does anything good for the game.
And all those things are brought in so that we get animations that don't add any horror into the game. They don't bring back the thrill of the chase we all experienced in our first few hundred hours, and the animations aren't even gruesome. And even if they were gory, there's not really much horror in gore. I mean, I'm fine watching a scene in TCM where someone's face is flayed off, and that adds to the need for the characters to survive, but moris don't really add any horror to DBD since there's nothing to survive afterwards.
I find the game as survivor to be much less fun as a result of all these things, especially the way it feels like a built-in show off animation by the winning side. All this has ruined a significant part of this game I've poured countless hours into, and I would love for it to be reverted :(
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I don't have a strong opinion about the list options, and I wanted to say Winnie the Pooh, but I think he makes a better killer, so probably Grover.
Sorry for not picking from the list though; I just think it would be hilarious to see a unique Grover running animation during chase.
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@Equinox_One said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3862132#Comment_3862132
I've had a few. One against a full hider squad that had stealth perks, on Mother's Dwelling I think.
I've wondered how awful it would be if a bully squad didn't do their normal routine, but instead just picked perks that helped them hide from the killer from the start of the match without doing gens.
It's possible to not get crows while doing that, and I feel like it would be the most obnoxious game of locker search ever. Killer instinct should still make it not totally awful, but I've wondered about that exact scenario.
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@hxp said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3862006#Comment_3862006
if you have difficulties to 4k with any killer in this game, you have a skill issue. Even against an SWF it's no issue at all! This game needs massive balancing. and I forgot some things:
- rework tiles (less filler pallets and more useful chase spots)
- rework maps overall (for example: undo the changes to the haddonfield map)
As much as I agree that I'd also like to see the finisher mori reverted, I don't think I agree about any killer always being able to pull a 4k.
Admittdly, I win more matches than I lose as killer, which is intended. But with certain map layouts, a full team of survivors who are all good loopers, splitting up on gens, bringing Commodius with add-ons, it can be pretty challenging for m1 killers to pull a 4k.
I main Pig, and if the map layout doesn't let me approach gens with good line of sight blocking, matches can get pretty hard against whole teams who play well and are very good at chase. If I do have line-of-sight blocking, I only have to get a survivor to make one mistake :)
But a talented Nurse should almost never struggle. For her, even RPD should be winnable most of the time. I still mess up sometimes blinking to upper/lower levels, and that's definitely a skill issue for me. But I think at very high MMR, wins for mainly m1 killers aren't guaranteed all the time even if the killer player is very talented. I suspect others will mostly agree?
*Though I'll also say this isn't a justification for tunneling or other bm.
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@Raccoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3862083#Comment_3862083
I've never been in a game that has went to server close before....
Me too.
As killer, I hunt down the last survivor(s), but have never had two hide well enough to stay fully hidden for more than a few minutes. Sometimes as a stealth killer in hopeless 2v1 situations (e.g. 3 gens or more left), I'll see one doing a gen, chase them off, then go stealthily look on the other gens for their teammate for a few minutes. And if they're not doing any gens after a few minutes, and the one teammate keeps trying, I do some hide-and-seek for the one not contributing...
As survivor, if the situation looks hopeless, I'll sometimes try to open chests for a medkit if I'm injured. If I can't get some kind of heal, I'll go on gens. And if I do get a heal, I'll also go on gens. If a slug for 4k happens, I'll slowly try to go for the save, careful to avoid the killer who's likely camping the slug.
None of those ever came close to an hour :/
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3862050#Comment_3862050
I literally had a match a couple hours ago, at the end it was 2 survivors left, 1 gen left on haddonfield (all 3 gens were next to eachother) 1 survivor was attempting the gens but would back away when I got close. The other survivor was hiding the opposite side of the map and would not help the other survivor to do gens. As a result I patrol the 3 gens pushing back the one trying. In that situation I don't think the hiding survivor deserves the hatch. If both tried they both might die but they might get the gen done. Turned out game went to server end and both died.
Post game chat they said "had fun doing nothing for an hour lol" they don't care how long they wait they just hide out of spite, knowing they won't win prolonging the match. My view is simply if people play it that way I will play it the same way. I could have slugged the 3rd and went after the 4th but people don't like slugging for the 4k either. And they might have got the hatch for admittingly "doing nothing". This isn't slugging for 4k for ego reasons or entitlement it's denying people like that the hatch. I honestly think slugging for the 4k is a minimal issue compared to hiding for the hatch...4min v 1 hour that's all I'm saying.
So weird about that scenario though. If I were one of those survivors, I'd do what the survivor on gens did, but expect to get chased at some point. Then if you wouldn't chase, I'd be trying to get you to run out your gen kicks and finish the gen.
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I am interested in who the professors are at DBD U. Probably Claudette on Botany, Adam for literature. Vittorio could teach history I guess, and Jonah for math. Mikaela could teach witchcraft and Blight and Rebecca could probably teach chemistry and alchemy.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3861779#Comment_3861779
Killers don't slug because survivors hide. They slug because they know the hatch will spawn the moment 3rd survivor dies regardless if survivors hide or not. So to maximise chance of finding hatch before survivor does, the killer will slug to slow them down. Survivors hide because they know they can't do the gens with only 2 people left (suicide to try). So they hide and hope the other survivor dies first so the remaining survivor has a chance to get the hatch. So we know which came first, the hatch. That's the reason for both sides doing what they do. Why do survivors remain hidden when they know the killer won't look for them after about 15min? That's the issue, that's the time wasting without reason.
I always take a moment to understand the game state if there are only two survivors and more than one generator left, then get on a gen (or maybe hunt down a Devour Hope totem). A lot of my solo queue teammates also get on gens if they know the killer is somewhere else (e.g. chasing me).
As killer, I also essentially never see both survivors hide for a long time, even if multiple gens are left with just two survivors. I will admit though, that I've spectated some people who hid while they tried to wait out their teammates. I tend to root for the killer to get the hiders when they're leaving their active teammate to take all the risks :/
In any case, I don't doubt that you get this happening a lot, but it always surprises me because of my own experience. I do kind of wonder if it's because of playstyle differences. I mean, shouldn't killer instinct make it possible for you to get one of them at some point?
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Seeing Nancy reminds me that I kept thinking yesterday that it was Christmas Steve, not Christmas Eve...
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❄️❄️❄️ ✨️ 🎄🎁 🧱🔥🧱🦹♀️🕵👷♂️🧣🧥🎄 ✨️❄️❄️❄️
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@shush said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860379#Comment_3860379
It's likely they just don't have a way to deal with tunneling, camping, slugging for 4k, and bully squads…
They do they're called perks, and if survivors really have a problem with these strategies personally, they should run the perk that counters it. Instead they don't do this, and prefer to complain about killer strategies so BHVR nerfs any variance in playstyle into the ground, and in doing so makes the perks themselves have less of an impact on less games overall.
…no online game is meant to be a competitive sport except inside of certain gaming leagues. Pretending that DbD or any other video game should be treated in the same way as MMA or professional football (American or the other kind) is a dramatic misrepresentation of why people play the game. We're all playing to have fun…
I fully agree with this sentiment, but just because we want it to be true doesn't make it so. Just because people play for fun, doesn't make it non-competitive. DBD has always been a competitive game, only in the last few years has that emphasis on comp over fun been hard pushed by BHVR. The over-prioritisation of balance over fun, the insistence on not only the implementation of MMR but it's setting of kills/personal escapes as a win condition, the removal of the rank system giving players no idea of and no control over the kind of games they get, and the promoting of this kind of mindset to the incoming playerbase.
I only compared the game to MMA facetiously to make a point, but the whole idea is that I shouldn't have to make that comparison at all. Every year I play this game the more competitive it, and the community, gets. Every year playstyles are crushed by BHVR, which only forces out even more desperate and boring gameplay and gem-defence metas. BHVR doesn't want people to play in these ways, but in gutting them, gives no other options back. This is why we still see the exact same regression perks that have been meta for years, we still see proxy camping, still see slugging for 4k. The game design in pushing harder and harder for comp play, so comp play is what we're gonna get. This design is coming from the people who view the game in comparison to hockey, we really shouldn't be surprised this is happening.
Mostly agree :)
Also, imagine I made a joke about BHVR being stereotypical and wanting DbD to be like hockey ;D
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3860412#Comment_3860412
The double standard is that the list of "bad things that killers do" often helps raise their win rate. Pretty much every killer strategy that helps the killers raise their kill rate, is labeled and demonized as a problem.
Meanwhile, the list of "bad things that survivors do", often involve survivors just doing things purely out of spite.
It's not so much that there's a double standard, but more that most of the things survivors can do to make a killer's experience worse won't help them win.
If survivors could do something that completely prevented the killer from being able to participate in the game in any reasonable way, that would be bad too. And some people try to do that, which is why bully squads are almost universally disliked. But bully squads don't usually get a lot of gens done against talented killers, and they're less common than tunneling, camping, and slugging for 4k, so there's less discussion about them.
Meanwhile, several of the things that killers can do that most heavily impact a survivor's experience are also tactics that can make it much easier to win. As killer, it's strikingly easy to tunnel someone out, or use proxy camping to ensure pressure is kept as high as possible by preventing healing and rapidly finding someone to chase, or to get a nearly guaranteed fourth kill by slugging for a 4k. And don't get me wrong; if you pick the wrong target to tunnel out, the game is basically thrown. But all of those things can make it impossible for a survivor to participate in the game in any meaningful way.
Ultimately, there's just not a lot survivors can do to prevent a killer from participating in the game in the way that's expected. But killers have much more control over the experience of any particular survivor in a match, and they can use that control in a way that simultaneously ruins the survivor player's experience and helps the killer do better in the match. But just because something that's rude to do to someone will help the person doing it doesn't make it alright. It's also not so hard to win matches without tunneling, camping, or slugging for 4k.