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@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885681#Comment_3885681
BHVR after working months on the anti-slug surrender option only to see that one thread about how "a surrender option for mass slugging is the wrong choice" get a lot of traction like 3 days ago: 👁👄👁
Yeah, a surrender option for when everyone is slugged will just encourage more slugging. I'm not seeing any way yet how it will help.
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@Jtflorencio said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885724#Comment_3885724
With what's coming DBD this year, the killers are going to suffer a lot... are you sure you wouldn't buffer the Cerda like I want after what they announced today?
I think that if the QoL improvements are done well, they should benefit everyone :)
On the killer side, the only thing I worry about is that certain slugging nerfs will make bully squads uncounterable. I need to be able to slug whole squads who do non-stop flashlight, flashbang, head-on, sabo. Otherwise, those matches could go on for ages.
I'm really excited for the idea that they'll attempt to nerf tunneling and other low-skill toxic playstyles. I never use them, and if they're no longer able to be used to win matches, I might start playing survivor more.
But you're right that I worry BHVR won't consider the knock-on effects of their updates.
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@DestroyerBG said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885660#Comment_3885660
to be fair I won't be surprised if someone got confused. I've seen the stupid ai redactor to censor names, simple words or outright whole sentences that are normal or you know if you type for example the words sacrifice or dying because yeah we definitely do not use those words in the game all about sacrifice and death. I can see someone confusing the situation and accidentally reporting the stuff said as bad language.
One time I had it censor 'David King'.
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It's awesome that BHVR is taking the direction of caring about the game health!
There are a few things in the update list that I'm worried will have unintended consequences. I hope the team spends a lot of time crowdsourcing possible knock-on effects of any changes. Like PTBs, longer term trial periods for certain updates, and slightly increased frequency of feedback surveys.
As some others have mentioned, it's also important to address why some of these changes are considered to be needed in the first place, and maybe target certain root causes.
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@Adrien said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885462#Comment_3885462
I could also argue that most survivors don't play stealthy and leave gens only when killer approaches. So Aura reading perks might be a waste if you have a decent game sense as a killer. Also Bbq and chili and nowhere to hide can be countered by lockers and professional stealth survivors know how to counter perks.
Every aura reading perks used is a lack gen slowdown/regression that can backfire, leaving the killer more exposed to "gen rush".
The thing is finding survivor doesn't give you an automatic hook. You still have to chase and down them. So even if you manage to counter stealth, you have to work your way to your objective (hook stage/sacrifice).
Meanwhile DS + OTR or DH punish tunneling pretty hard. A killer can literally lose the game if they try to tunnel a decent survivor equipped with those perks.
And survivors don't need other build since gen speed is already pretty fast. Complete second chance/anti tunneling perks with anti slug (unbreakable or WGLF) and you have a textbook META build for survivors.
Hard tunneling is efficient for 3 main reasons :
- The survivor is bad in chase AND has 0 anti-tunnel perks.
- The other survivors are not efficient enough on gens.
- The killer is a top tier character.
IMO Nurse and Blight deserve a nerf on their basekit.
Hard tunneling is unfun, so is hide and seek strats.
Hard tunneling fix suggestion : add a basekit gen repair speed penalty when killer mixes hook between survivors and a gen repair speed boost when killer tunnels.
I wrote a big long response, but it all boiled down to a few things:
Hard tunneling in the early game is rude to the targeted survivor and isn't needed. And I say that as someone who has always played killer and has become a killer main. And from that vantage point, I think you're right that a mechanism is needed to discourage tunneling.
I find the tension and thrill of hide-and-seek fun as survivor and as killer, but find chase to be cartoonish and silly. So I'd rather see more of hiding and not less. I learned chase only because it was critical to get good at the game.
Something similar to your proposed solution is not a bad idea. It needs to be carefully balanced to keep the game fun for survivors and killers, but something like that could work to discourage tunneling :D
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lol no. I'm a Pig main and find her to be well crafted. I agree with you that her ambush could use a small buff, and that her crouch/uncrouch speed needs a small enhancement. But much more than that and Nerf Pig would go from being a meme to a real and urgent need.
The changes proposed here would be far too much. Her crouched speed being faster than survivors? Have that along with enhanced pallet breaks and windows vaults? Then also buff her anti-loop? Then also buff her crouch time by 80%? I already get 3-4k in most games. I don't need to do it every game. I think you're right that she could use some buffs, but they should be small.
I should also say that it would be good to hear from the broader SoS (Society of Swine) on this to get more thoughts than just yours and mine :)
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I read the title of this and thought Blight was like a Pokémon, only communicating by saying his name repeatedly.
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@Jtflorencio said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885434#Comment_3885434
The Nurse passes through loops
Dracula/Pyramid's power passes through the Loop
Billy and Bubba break pallets in an absurd way
But the Pig can't have a ambush buff?It could use a very slight buff, maybe extending the duration by a small fraction of a second, like 0.1 or 0.2 seconds more. Much more than that and I think she could get hard to counter. Her primary strengths are her stealth and RBTs. Pig's stealth makes it possible to start almost every chase by injuring the survivor I'm targeting, turning Pig into something like a one-shot down killer.
Then her chase is augmented by her ambush. It lets you force survivors out of loops or give them a 50/50 if they stick around. But starting your chase with the survivor injured and being able to use enhanced mindgames or outright down a survivor at a loop they'd normally have a chance at using is usually enough to get a down and put a bear trap on in a reasonable time.
That leads into what someone else mentioned, which is the main point: her RBTs are very useful. They're quite effective for slowdown and can even be used to select when you want to have fewer survivors doing things.
And if a group of survivors really outplays Amanda, she can put a survivor into a hat with one generator left and not leave that survivor, guaranteeing at least one (cheap) kill.
It's true that she's still not Nurse or Blight, but buffing her very much could make her extremely oppressive for lower-skilled survivors. While she's not going to be a top-tier killer, I find her more fun to play (considering all those various powers) than unstoppable Nurse.
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@Adrien said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885439#Comment_3885439
Stealthy playstyle is the equivalent of tunneling IMO.
It's an effective and unfun strategy for the killer.
Tunnelling is an effective but unfun strategy for the survivor.
Both sides should learn how to play around it and stop complaining.
On top of your game skill/game sense, you have perks to counter those playstyles.
That's objectively unreasonable. Most killers will run an aura reading or information perk, making it easy to find survivors while not having to compromise their build in any way. Meanwhile, to counter tunneling, a survivor has to choose perks that they generally would have no reason to pick if tunneling didn't exist.
I play mostly killer and see no reason to tunnel. If I get outplayed by a group of survivors, that's not a reason for me to go in my next matches and ruin someone's game. I should just get better at the game.
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The survivors should be stealthing if possible unless their teammates have more hooks or they can't place themselves in a hiding spot that's favorable to start a chase. I don't see what's wrong with this at all. If you don't find a survivor then you have to go look more, which wastes more of your time. I've definitely had some instances where I find a progressed gen and am pretty sure a survivor is hiding somewhere nearby. If I don't find them, it means the survivor outplayed me, not that they're using some scummy playstyle. That's just not an excuse to tunnel someone.
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@Daniel_Silva04 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3885307#Comment_3885307
Her ambush is useless without the two yellow addons.
Her ambush is a mindgame against experienced survivors. It should be forcing survivors out of loops in a way that makes it hard to get to the next loop without taking a hit. If the loop has low walls, it even stops being a mindgame and becomes an issue of survivor knowledge to pick the least bad option.
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3848586#Comment_3848586
As a killer that still does this often, I can tell you that it is in fact not "never."
Sure, in theory I could be the only killer left that still gives hatch, but even if that wasn't extremely unlikely, I know a few other fellow Pig mains that still do sometimes. Do we do it every match? No. But sometimes we still do.lol You're not wrong about Pig mains. I'm also one, and I also still give hatch. But I also think the finisher mori has been a very negative addition to the game, and I refuse to use it, even if it would let me take out an annoying survivor who'd otherwise escape. Honestly, I don't think I've spectated a hatch being given or watched a streamer get given hatch or received a gift hatch myself more than once or twice total since the update. Though a couple days ago I did purchase an escape with a medkit. The killer was very pleased with their new item :)
I'm also always curious about other Pig mains. I wonder what everyone's booping policy is. I make it so survivors almost never have a chance to boop before they get hit, but if they manage to boop, they live.
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More Nea, less Blight.
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I have spared the final two survivors before because I was carrying someone to hook and saw they had a Warrior Puppers charm equipped.
Also, sometimes I'll spot hiding survivors because they're wearing bright charms.
Charms can do real things :)
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@Aven_Fallen said:
IMO the term "Bully Squad" has no meaning anymore. Point 1 to 4 of your list are not bullying or anything similar. It is either winning the game (using good Perks, sweating, dedicated chaser) or just having fun at the game (using flashlights). If all 5 points are fulfilled, you can call it a Bully Squad, but this is only due to Point 5.
And IMO the term is not really justified anymore. Most people who talk about Bully Squads dont encounter a Bully Squad, but they lost a game and therefore the others bullied them. I have read people say that Flashlight Saves or Pallet Saves are bullying, or "Genrushing" or just being good in a chase.
For me, a Bully Squad is a bunch of players who dont play to win or to maximize points, but only play to make the other side miserable as possible. Those people still exist and they are on both sides, but they are rare. I just think that using the term "Bully Squad" has become old for at least 5 years now. Back in the day, in old old DBD, Bully Squads were more common since they were able to toy with the Killer while still winning the game. This is just not possible anymore and even if some people might want to engage with the Killer as much as possible, they cannot really do that if they want to win. And most people want to win and not just tease the Killer a bit and then lose.
So yeah, doing it in a malicious way and only playing to ruin the fun of others - those are players who bully. But anything else… Nah.
I agree with the assessment that bully squads are mostly teams whose main goal is to annoy the killer. I get them occasionally, and as you said, I don't even remember the last time a team doing that finished all the gens against me. Their goal is to annoy the killer though, and the sad thing is that usually I get to the post-game chat and there's just an eerie silence.
Most of my games end in ggs, wp, etc. from my side and the other. But these teams swarm around the killer, making pickups much too risky and forcing a slugfest until the killer is able to force some of them away or slug them all. In my experience, nobody is happy at the end of these matches; the survivors usually get 4ked, and I'll usually be annoyed that I had to spend time playing that kind of match. I'd much rather do chases, get people on hooks, or get shown how to play the game better :)
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I see bully squads as only those groups who try to make it impossible for the killer to play the game in a normal way by constantly blinding, stunning, or doing other saves or sabos. They try to make it impossible to hook, and generally should be bringing WGLF, an expo or two, and perks to make it hard for the killer to hook or keep them down. Head-On and Flashbang are common since they make it possible to repeatedly annoy the killer. Usually an oak offering and a one for a strong map are there too.
Teams that are efficient are just efficient. They make me learn to play better :)
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If I were to achieve such a thing, I probably would not post again for exactly two months and eight days (ish... depending on the current month).
Congratulations 🎊 👏 💐 🥳 🎊 👏 💐 🥳
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3879936#Comment_3879936
It definitely should and is reportable, makes no difference if its 4, 3 or 2 people doing it. It's still the same outcome. Many times I have killed first 2 within 5min at like 3 gens. At this point the survivors have a tendency to hide for as long as necessary because they know they can't do the gens with just 2 of them so they try out live the other player to get hatch. Some do it knowing they won't get the hatch because both are doing it so they don't just to prolong the game they have lost. When they intentionally avoid the objective (gens) and intentionally bypass the mechanic that is supposed to aid the killer in finding inactive survivors (crows) for a prolonged period of time it is definitely reportable. There is a reason why crows are supposed to activate. Moving around in a small area long enough still activates crows because it's telling the survivor "that's long enough, time to move and actually do something". Unfortunately people have found a way to bypass crows while still not doing anything.
It baffles me how some people can not see hiding without progressing the match with no intention of doing the gens as being reportable. Especially knowing that if both accomplish their "goal" of hiding effectively long enough the hatch will never open because the killer can't find either of them. End outcome is server ends and both get sacrificed. That's why they definitely shouldn't be able to bypass crows at the very least.
All fair. I've personally never see this happen for more than a few minutes when I'm the killer, when I spectate as a survivor, or when I watch streamers. So it's hard for me to grasp that this could happen often for some people. I have no doubt that it does happen though; I distinctly remember watching other survivors through Kindred a bunch of times while they'd pick up and drop items, or just run in circles in some weird location. (In solo queue, I'll staple Kindred into a lot of my builds.)
One match sticks out in my memory where we had 4 or 5 gens left, and collectively maybe 6 hooks or so. One person gave up on hook then, so I got Kindred for some seconds and watched the other two remaining survivors both run into the basement and hide in lockers while I kept doing gens. The Nurse found me and let me live while she hunted the hiders. I got a couple gens done during that time and even pointed to ask her if I could unhook one of the rats, but she shook her head no. Nurse gave me hatch... and she was streaming that mess :)
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3879486#Comment_3879486
The devs have stated that if survivors are just hiding like this, then it is holding the game hostage and reportable.
It is a "refusal to participate in normal gameplay" and is listed as a rule.
Well, several people have said this without anyone refuting it, so I'll assume it's true :)
The whole scenario has very little impact on me. I've never seen a pair of survivors hide successfully for more than a few minutes against me or anyone I spectated or watched streaming. And when I'm a survivor in a hopeless situation, I still do gens and saves and stuff. It's all very foreign to me.
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@Prometheus1092 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3879769#Comment_3879769
Holding the game hostage also applies to avoiding the objective not progressing the match for a prolonged period of time. There's a fine line between hiding to be stealthy with the aim of doing gens and hiding for 50min with no intention of doing gens.
Doing that for 50 minutes would be pretty extreme. I can't deny that. Still, it feels like the last two survivors not trying to do gens when there are several gens left and just two survivors shouldn't be reportable, even if it's annoying. It's true that I have to hunt in lockers and map corners for a few minutes to find people on rare occasions, and I can see how that would get pretty crazy if it went for 15 minutes or more.
Having said that, this case OP mentions is also odd since it sounds like both people were working together to do it. That does feel like more of a grey area to me than two last survivors trying to outlive each other.
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3879769#Comment_3879769
avoiding objectives with an intention to just hide is considered holding the game hostage, and you can stall the game that way fairly easily in a 2v1 standoff. I also remember BHVR officially stating that this kind of gameplay is holding the game hostage
That would suggest that any time the last two survivors just hide instead of continuing to work on gens would be reportable. While I never do that, I don't think it should be reportable. It feels a bit like there's some missing subtlety here. I can see it being reportable if multiple survivors do that from the beginning of the match, but something seems odd about the last two survivors being able to be reported for hiding.
You don't have an obligation to go find evidence, but this is something I think I won't believe until until I actually see it said by BHVR :(
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@NarkoTri1er said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3879486#Comment_3879486
survivor version of holding the game hostage: refusing to touch gens and continually hiding in an attempt to either force the killer to go afk, DC or wait for server to crash. Those players know they won't win if server crashes, but ego forces them to waste as much of killer's time while effectively doing nothing to progress the match.
Additionally, i think OP is talking specifically about the case of survivors dropping and picking items up as a way to bypass crows and killer getting alert of their location.
But none of that sounds like holding the game hostage in any way. The killer can just find the survivors. I've never had survivors that I didn't find after some minutes.
And my understanding is that holding the game hostage requires that the other players are unable to end the game. I only know of two scenarios where this seems feasible. One is bodyblocking a survivor into a location they can't get away from. Another is carrying a survivor to a corner then repeatedly dropping them, downing them again, and carrying them back to the same location. All other scenarios I can think of in the current game state can be ended by the killer finding the survivors.
If there were a location on a map that the killer couldn't reach, and a survivor just stayed there without doing anything, that would be holding the game hostage. But I've only seen one case of something kind of similar to that, and it was a location where a killer was unable to get the pickup prompt. Is there an official list of the kind of things that qualify as holding the game hostage?
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How can that be reportable? I think the only things that count as holding the game hostage are when you make it so the other side literally is unable to progress or end the game, like bodyblocking a survivor into a corner for extended periods. The killer can just find the survivors in this case.
Survivors don't have a mechanism to make the game unfinishable I think. I've had instances where I had to look for survivors, but I've never seen a case where they were able to hold the game hostage.
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Want :)
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The real purpose of generators isn't to power the gates; only a small fraction of their power is used for that. The entity took Sadako so it could have lots of TVs around. Now it uses electricity from the gens so it can watch Friends.
Speaking of Friends, I think Phoebe would be a great survivor. Not Monica! Imagine I said something about Gale Weathers being a name for a weather reporter, and how Ghostface would explode if Courtney Cox was a survivor. Weird diversion over…
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@Zakon05 said:
If survivors bring oak offerings and sabo builds and then complain about slugging, they can be safely ignored.
I don't really think oak offerings should be a thing, it's true. They're one of those things that are likely to put the killer on alert and make them play nastier. It's why I don't run them even when I really want to win, it's just going to make the killer play meaner and have almost no effect on anything since you need several of them to actually be an inconvenience.
But they're not part of why people complain about slugging. Nobody with a brain should be complaining about slugging after incentivizing the killer to slug. It'd be like bodyblocking with your off-hook protection and then complaining when you get tunneled. Which does happen but those people are dumb, too.This is accurate. If I sabo a hook, the killer is right to drop their slug and try to down me instead, or to guard the slug a little for extra pressure if someone else appears to be going for the pickup. And if the whole squad is hovering around the slug, then everyone should expect a slugfest.
Also, if a group is doing lots of hook sabos and flashlight/flashbangs, the killer should be expected to be slugging at least until they're clear for a pickup.
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I would enjoy a challenge that said "Escape the trial as The Demodog."
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3876599#Comment_3876599
To ask for a little clarification - why don't you consider those good outcomes wins and those bad outcomes losses?
If the game's geared towards one specific goal on either side, and either of those goals being met means the match ends… what is missing from that situation that would define those goals as the win condition?
It's the whys I'm most curious about here, rather than the whats, so to speak.
That's a good question. I think I see DBD more as an experience in a way somewhat similar to survival mode RPGs. In games where the entire goal is survival, I see the outcomes more like the outcome of a dangerous situation in life: I wouldn't say I won in a terrifying life or death situation; I'd say I lived.
And as killer, I don't have equivalent life experience since I'm not a murderer, but I see killer matches the same way: I don't feel like I'm winning or losing; I'm sacrificing or not sacrificing. So as killer, I just feel like I'm doing a job. I can do it well, but I usually don't think I win or lose at my job. And honestly, from my perspective, my most important job as killer is to give the survivors a good match. If they escape and feel like they didn't have to work for it, I think I didn't do my job.
As a result, I don't see most of the game in terms of winning or losing. That's why sometimes on these forums, I'll put 'win' and 'loss' in quotes :)
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In my eyes, survivors have a clear set of defined good or bad outcomes: for each survivor, an escape is a good outcome and death is a bad outcome. But I don't view those as wins/losses. As survivor, I also feel better if I do something to help the other survivors escape.
As killer, I usually see a good outcome as sacrificing a certain number of survivors.
I guess if we define good/bad outcomes as wins/losses, then we get a set of win conditions for each player. Even then, the win condition for killer will depend on what the killer player thinks is a good outcome. It seems clear to me that a 3k or 4k would typically be viewed as the killer doing well, and that a 1k isn't as great. Personally, I don't mind getting a 1k, I just want a good match.
Having said that, I think the killer doesn't have a win condition for the whole match. The killer has four 1v1 matches, and a set of good or bad outcomes for each.
But I also see all of those things through a lens of playstyle. If I feel like the match was cheap, like if a player decides to go next on hook in the early game, I'm going to feel like a rapid 4k isn't deserved and is more of a loss on my side.
If I had to define a set of survivor win conditions I think is defined by the current community, it would be escapes/sacrifices for each individual survivor. And for the killer, it would be that 0-1k is a loss, 2k a tie, and 3k or 4k as win. But those are a bit subjective.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3876126#Comment_3876126
Mighty-morphin-power-bushes
Rita Repulsa as a killer?
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3875835#Comment_3875835
Why? Honestly why does it matter if you are the last survivor? You really think your Boil Over perk is going to save you?
As to the topic, a Phantasm Chapter with The Tall Man as Killer (with a Lady in Lavender Legendary) and Reggie Bannister as survivor (with Michael and Jody at least as Legendaries, if not also Tommy) and then also a Noir Claire Legendary from the RE2 Remake!I agree with buggy! Removal of the finisher mori would be my top thing. I wrote in response to your comment only because I wanted to show support for buggybug's comment :)
That or multiple changes to make it healthier for the community. I started writing my thoughts about how to make it better, but this is a happy wishlist post.
Also, Noir Claire? Is that a thing? Sounds cool!
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@Roco45 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3876273#Comment_3876273
Claiming you don't see why Killers would do it so early in the game means you shouldn't be in this discussion until you play some more Killer and figure it out.
They do it because they are titled from the past matches against SWF's and then take it out on SoloQ or they do their best to start off games like that so that they easily can control the entire game. Killers rack up so many points doing it while Survs don't, but it's not even about the bloodpoints at the end, it's about salty players trying to ruin the game for others. I have many matches in SoloQ where the Killer has an entire slug build and just bleeds us out for 4 minutes at 5 gens, it's not hard to understand what would lead Killers to do that.
SWF are the entire reason that Killers slug/tunnel/camp and then carry that playstyle over to SoloQ, which has been leading to mass DCing and "going next", it's literally a fact. Event queue even proves that because it's not like Survs are stacking meta perks in chaos queue or getting 2nd chance or gen perks that often yet Killers are still doing it.
Killer do it because it's easy and stays in the game as a way to combat SWF which then trickles down to SoloQ and makes SoloQ unplayable. Ongoing issue for years now that's been getting worse and worse.
Again, IDC about winrates that BHVR releases with their skewed stats, I look at the actual game and what's going on and what actual players are saying about their experiences. Most people don't want to talk about the real issue this game has, though I see more and more people talking about it here and on other forums, though they still mostly get silenced by opposition.
If SWF was nerfed, Killers could be rebalanced and the game would be better for all. I have not read a single counter argument to that other than someone crying about the game wouldn't be fun for their SWF group if they weren't allowed to bully the Killer.
Here are some things you just said:
"Claiming you don't see why Killers would do it so early in the game means you shouldn't be in this discussion until you play some more Killer and figure it out."
"it's literally a fact."
"Again, IDC about winrates that BHVR releases with their skewed stats, I look at the actual game and what's going on and what actual players are saying about their experiences."
Those statements indicate a willingness to ignore other players' experiences and opinions as well as actual statistics, while asserting that your statements are the only factual ones.
You told me to go play more killer in spite of the fact that I clearly stated that I play a lot of killer. You also have expressed that you don't care about the actual statistics, and outright ignored my experiences while stating that you pay attention to people's stated experiences. Please do not ignore what people say while telling them they don't belong in discussions.
As you rightly indicated, people's experiences are critical, not just the numbers. But if I'm mad about a bully squad I just 4ked, that's not an excuse for me to go tunnel someone and then bully some people that had nothing to do with a frustrating match. It's a problem that this can be done at all.
I wrote more than that, but I removed anything else I wrote here because I think that it needs to be emphasized that ignoring discussions made in good faith and telling the people taking the time to interact with others that they don't even belong in the discussion is not productive.
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@Roco45 said:
Most people aren't ready for an actual discussion about it and BHVR sure aren't ready to actually do something about it. First step is to stop blaming Killers for it and look beyond that at what could possibly be causing them to camp/tunnel/slug. Better yet, go play Killer as much as you play Surv and go see what could possibly lead to Killers doing all of that.
Second step is to acknowledge that there are three classes of play in this game; Killer, SWF, and SoloQ. It's not Killer vs Surv, it's Killer vs SWF with SoloQ getting caught in the crossfire, leading to all the issue you described above.
SWF need to be nerfed and then everything else needs to be rebalanced around that, it would solve almost every single issue this game has.
I play more killer than survivor these days and have always played a decent amount of both roles. From that vantage point, I see no good reason why some killers want to hard tunnel and camp in the early game.
The only reason of any kind I can see for that behavior is that people doing those things are afraid they won't 'win' as often if they don't tunnel and camp someone out as fast as possible. The reason anyone has such a fear probably varies per person. It's also likely that some players want to make their opponents have a bad time, but hopefully that's a minority of cases.
I don't think swfs are a huge problem. Sometimes I'll see a group that shows signs of being a swf (lobby fills all at once, coordinated names and outfits, etc.), see a couple flashlights, a toolbox, a firecracker, and then decide whether I feel like that kind of match. I do agree that swfs are more likely to make annoying matches, but I'd say my win-rate against teams that appear to be bully squad swfs is better than my average win-rate. A good swf that pushes gens and are all good in chase with good game sense will give me challenges, but those are matches that challenge me to get better :)
Ultimately, I don't think swfs are a reason to tunnel/camp.
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@crogers271 said:
My conspiracy theory - DbD isn't a game, its a psychological experiment testing how we all behave. Tell a group of people (survivors), that the only thing that matters is their personal survival, but don't tell them that the only way they can accomplish this is by working together. See how the playerbase evolves. Do they inherently develop comradery and empathy for their fellow players? Do they sacrifice for each other? Does antagonism develop between the survivor and killer communities?
Also with things like sweatiness. We'll put obviously broken things into the game and see whether the community just self-policies the behavior.
And of course, don't give either side a win condition and see if they just create one on their own.
That's the conspiracy: we're all test subjects and the paper they were going to write got delayed because the game became very popular.
This doesn't sound too far removed from that famous prison experiment...
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3875337#Comment_3875337
That can still mean many things. What if the killer goes off and tries to find other survivors and the one that got unhooked last happens to cross their path. Is it then tunneling to go after that survivor?
I noticed some people are saying this is a problem too and definitely considered tunneling. There are some subtleties here though.
If you go to look for another survivor, spend time and effort to track someone down, and find the last person you hooked long after they've been off-hook, probably got healed, I'd say it's not necessarily tunneling to hook them again.
Having said that, if it's early in the match and you specifically break chase or focus intentionally only on that one person, that's tunneling, even if it wasn't straight off-hook.
Personally, if I down someone I just hooked or who's having a bad match, and it's still early in the game, I'll leave them slugged. That gives me the pressure of having them off of gens, pulls someone off to go heal them, and lets me chase someone else in the meantime, all while that one person doesn't get another hook state and gets to stay on the game. If it's late game, I don't mind so much from the survivor or killer perspective.
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@Interrupt_Vector said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3875512#Comment_3875512
It's really interesting that all 4 survivors are constantly getting tunneled. How does that work?
Can't tunnel all four survivors at once? Skill issue ;)
Edit: want to make sure you know this one isn't making a statement about tunneling = good or bad :)
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@OnryosTapeRentals said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3874628#Comment_3874628
I find the charm wears off when this kind of thing is done ad nauseam.
I've memed as a basement Bubba a few times. I'll get the survivors all in the basement, someone touches the basement chest, then Bubba has a tantrum.
I'm never able to get into character and just down everyone and put them all on hooks once they're all in Bubba's house though, so then we just farm :/
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@UndeddJester said:
You can't get rid of tunneling, and I know that sounds stupid, but hear me out, cause this is important.
The threat of tunneling must exist for the game to have any engagenent. Think about it, if tunneling is impossible, then survivors can basically unhook for free without a single thought given to where the killer is or what the state of the game is when they do it. Knowing when to unhook is an extremely important skill and yes, you can learn this skill in SoloQ by using the HUD properly, it's not SWF only.
There is one basekit mechanic that noone talks about to counter tunneling that all survivors have... YOU DON'T UNHOOK!
The hook is the safest plave a survivor can be. If a killer hard tunnels they are gifting at least 2 survivors basically 120+s of uninterrupted gen time (from the hook timer) if the survivors use it, plus whatever loop time the survivor can manage (extended by OTR, DS, DH, etc, etc). The 1 saving survivor also gets a decent chunk of gen time if the survivors play it smart. Recognising a killer trying to hover in range of hook to tunnel this is the most important skill SoloQ can have. Your hooks stages/hook timers are resources that you should be exploiting as much as possible.
I am middle-aged now, my fingers are slow and my reactions and aim aren't very good (damn you flashlights)... but the one thing I've always been exceptional at was reading the game. A friend of mine while playing League of Legends back in the day once said "dude... I'm not gonna lie, you have the mechanics of a bronze player... but you have the brain of a challenger". I make this point because if I can play this game to a decent degree without good mechnical skill, without meta perks and handle tunneling fine, just by virtue of being sensible, I'm sure other players can too.
The elephant in the room for DBD and the reason why SoloQ and tunneling is so frustrating is because the way it tends to play out is you've managed to take the killer away from some key gens, got 1 to pop, not used up too many resources, and your teams pressure is good, you've done your part... but if your teammates then unhook you quickly and feed you to the killer (a decision entirely out of your control), its all for nothing. It's like you're playing a game of chess, outplayed your opponent and won 2 pawns... only to hand it off to your teammate who then promptly blunders the Queen.
We say it all the time that a SWF in comms is very hard to beat... and why is that? It's because they operate with the same goals in mind... and if a killer tunnels, a SWF can effectively adapt to it. SoloQ can't adapt as readily, and so it requires a more pessimistic mindset where you have to assume a killer will tunnel and make it as difficult to do it as possible rightbfrom the get go... but so many players just try to unhook the first chance they get without really appreciating what is going on, nor how dangerous that is... and if it's a survivor mistake to unhook, then the punishment is tunneling.
So the point is, you can't remove tunneling, cause it's an important tactical part of the game. Your job as a survivor is to make it as punishing to do it as you possibly can. If you make it easy to tunnel, the killer will tunnel. That's just a logical fact, and aomethimg all survivors should be mindful of.
I always think the same thing about proxy camping. The unhook and the healing process do need to feel tense.
The question is how much to punish those behaviors to ensure the targeted player isn't feeling like it was pointless to play the match. I mean, if I do dumb things and get taken out, that's on me. But if I'm tunneled out from the outset, I feel like the match isn't worth playing.
Personally, the only time I'll pressure the hook is late-game, or if someone unhooks right as I'm leaving. And as a disclaimer, in the latter case, I chase the unhooker. But we've all seen (presumably plenty of) cases where the killer runs straight back to hook and immediately chases the unhooked person, waits out the borrowed time, and just tunnels them out while maintaining whatever pressure they can on nearby gens until the unhook.
Maybe basekit protections for the unhooked person should be strengthened if two or fewer gens are done?
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@RaSavage42 said:
They should get rid of the SOS and replace that with a market with all perks in it
Then they could have a "sale" on a few perks every week (or so)
Doing this will have newer players happy that they can have all perks being available to them and veterans will be happy that the perks they are missing are available (the ones that don't have all characters unlocked)
I think that to some extent, they may need to keep perks locked behind pay walls because that drives some of their sales. I really don't play Artist much, but I did get her for Pain Res.
With so many characters though, I think it's right that a bit more going into the rotation would be good :)
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While this situation is awful for everyone involved, Hunty was unfortunately just guarding her gens and playing the game. Same with all the survivors who did the gens a little and retreated repeatedly.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873751#Comment_3873751
If a killer is leaving a survivor on the ground, and is therefore making zero attempt to defend them, then 60 seconds is long enough for another survivor to pick them off the ground.
And the time saved by not hooking a survivor, is offset by that fact that slugged survivors are essentially getting 60 seconds added to their hook timer, and that killers won't be able to bypass the hook timer via slugging. It makes prolonged slugging much less time efficient.
Yeah, there are pros and cons. I want to write more, but have to do other stuff for now. It definitely doesn't hurt to put the survivor in a new place the killer is unaware of in that scenario :)
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873746#Comment_3873746
I did say that, but then you said it would incentivize full team slugging.
This change would actually make it more difficult to full team slug, because the slugged survivors would get teleported far apart from each other, and the killer wouldn't see where the survivors are being teleported to, so it would be much harder for a killer to defend slugs, and much harder for a killer to attack survivors that are trying to help slugged survivors.
Right, but most killers struggle to reliably slug a whole team anyway. Killers like Billy and Blight are going to be best at it. But they can leave a slug and go hunt for other people without taking the time to hook if they know the slug will just go on a hook in 60 seconds. These killers would lose even more incentive to hook for players who are thinking of going for a slugging build.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873743#Comment_3873743
If all 4 survivors have been slugged for 60 seconds, there's like a 99% chance the killer won the game if they don't pick any of the survivors off the ground.
So how would this be any different? The only thing that is being changed is how long the players are stuck in the game. If any of the survivors had a way to pick themselves off the ground, or could crawl through an exit gate, they likely would have done that before the 60 seconds happened.
Did I misread your original statement? It sounded like the suggestion was that if any survivor is slugged for 60 seconds, they go into a cage 2v8 style. I could have read it wrong :/
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873661#Comment_3873661
There absolutely are reasons to bleed survivors out on the ground…
When all 4 survivors are slugged, they will very often still try to wiggle if they are picked up. And hook respawning doesn't change the fact that there often are situations where all 4 survivors aren't in range of 4 separate hooks, especially if they were slugged because they all stayed in the same area.
If multiple survivors haven't been hooked yet, then placing any of them on a hook can actually make the game LONGER, because they might self-unhook and then try to pick up their teammates.
This is why I keep arguing that if a survivor has been slugged for 60 seconds, they should automatically get teleported to a 2v8 cage. It stops prolonged slugging, and ends the game quicker because the game would automatically end when all the remaining survivors are in cages.
Putting survivors in cages automatically once they've been slugged for 60 seconds would incentivize full team slugging since the killer knows the survivor will just get a hook state if they're left on the ground. I don't see many cases of 4-person slugging myself, but the number of instances people are reporting indicate that it's not as uncommon as it should be. I imagine we shouldn't encourage it more.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873403#Comment_3873403
It’s reasonable to think killers slug more to see the finisher mori. We don’t need stats to show that as it is a logical conclusion.
It's just as reasonable to think that killers stop caring about the mori after the first few times. The animation doesn't change. It's not like you see something new every time. So we do need stats.
In any event, BHVR won't ever release stats on slugging.
That's factually incorrect. They already did that. They published some data about how long the average survivor spends on the ground etc.
I couldn't find the complete forums post about this but this was posted on Reddit.
I think it's likely that both cases exist. There are likely a lot of people who got over the novelty and now don't care, but I imagine there are a lot of people who feel rewarded when they get the mori from a 4k. I definitely still see people waiting out hook states to get their mori. I've also seen people hit the last person on-hook repeatedly to try to get the person on hook to let them have their mori when they know where the slug is.
My suspicion is that since a very common scenario that produces the finisher mori is a 4k, some people will see the finisher mori as something that happens when they've done well, giving them a dopamine release and reinforcing that getting the mori signifies that they've done a good job. Some people would then be more inclined to slug for it. Others would just care that they won, and others would just not like slugging for 4k, etc. It's likely that for some number of players, the finisher mori is encouraging slugging for 4k, and for others it's not making a difference. But the net result of that is that the new mechanic ends up encouraging slugging for 4k in the community overall.
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There's a third scenario. I stole a sacrificed Bill's key then watched for the killer when hatch got closed. Then I ran to where the killer came from...
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@YuffieGreatestWaifu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873070#Comment_3873070
The worst perk in the game and you are always a one hit… yep troll squad.
David: "I brought No Mither. It lets me start the match injured."
Jake: "Why?"
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@LockerLurk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873215#Comment_3873215
Ohhhh OK I'm sorry for misreading my friend! :)
I don't always read tone well online sometimes, I wasn't sure if it was sarcasm or not. But yes, DBD is a bit more than tag. My point being that at some point both sides need to stop relying on perks and focus on just playing the fundamentals, which is very problematic if the fundamentals at this point include unfun strategies like pushing gens before anything else and slugging people. Like I would prefer to chase but sometimes that is not feasible, and sometimes I have to leave someone down. I would prefer to not push gens really hard and leave, but sometimes the Killer pushes so hard I feel I have no choice.
lol I have to admit that I kinda felt bad the small number of times I've brought gen-rush builds. Commodius + both charge add-ons, Built To Last and some gen-rush perks... I always felt a little weird in endgame chat when people could see the build :/
Oddly, I don't mind seeing that as killer. I'm sure some of my tougher games are the result of a talented team running those things, but it doesn't feel so bad from the killer side. I literally feel worse as the player doing it than when I'm on the receiving end.
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@alpha5 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873280#Comment_3873280
There is a difference between wanting something and the degree of whining you did.
Can confirm: that person wasn't whining. They just expressed that things like tunneling/proxy camping in the early game can completely ruin someone's match for essentially no other reason than someone was afraid they might not win at a game. And that's not because the person doing it might not be able to participate, it's because they might not outright win. Meanwhile, they deny one person the ability to enjoy the game at all, making them unable to participate in most aspects of the game and instead essentially guaranteeing that they can't survive the match.
Why would someone pay money for a game when that's going to happen? Also, why would someone even wait for a match when that's going to happen? It becomes a waste of time and money.
Also, this isn't a case of emotional blackmail. That person is trying to discuss how those actions make people feel. That's similar to talking about how bullying makes people feel, and why it shouldn't be done. That's different than emotional blackmail, which is a dishonest attempt at using guilt to manipulate people into doing things. This is not a case of dishonesty for such a purpose.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3872953#Comment_3872953
Apparently some players are so desperate for the mori that they slug for that alone when they wouldn't care for the 4k otherwise. I have my doubts that this is actually true though. Moris are a nice detail but to be honest, they don't look that good that I need to see them every time and I would assume that's how most players feel.
What could be done though is reworking the mori so it only works on the 3rd survivor, if and only if the other one is not in the dying state. So if by chance there really is an uptick in slugging for the mori it would now disincentivise it.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3873118#Comment_3873118
I don't think we even have any data that would show that slugging for the 4k became more prevalent around the time the base kit more was introduced. I know that there were stats about slugging but without a comparison to how much it occured before that, this is really not sufficient. It could have always been like this and we wouldn't know for sure. It's also possible that this started way sooner and just now reached its peak.
It might as well be, that killers overall win more, which leads to more games in which slugging for the 4k is even an option. Or people don't want to take a completely arbitrary risk in hooking the third survivor and giving the 4th 2 more chances to escape. That's really the part that I don't like about the way the hatch works. You win the game by killing 3 survivors but then there is a second and third chance for that last survivor to escape still, which can also be minimised by slugging.
I'd say that's a problem with the hatch. One that unfortunately has no easy solution because without the hatch, that last survivor basically has no incentive to play anymore. The same thing would be true for the last 2 survivors (with 1-2 gens remaining).
Oddly, I like hatch for that reason from both roles. As the last survivor, the odds of escape through a gate decrease dramatically unless the gate positioning is lucky. And as you mentioned, without hatch, I'd feel like I should keep trying to survive and escape.
As killer, I feel like the last survivor should have a realistic chance at escape, especially if it's been a very one-sided match. At 3k, I have a good outcome, so the fourth kill doesn't matter to me.