mizark3
mizark3
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@VikingDragonXii said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3237427#Comment_3237427
Ahhh yes the "Streamers says it so it's law" counter argument.....each of those streamers also have shown how to stomp on Nurse as well and have stomped on Nurse players. You have to remember the average Nurse is no where near as skilled as a Nurse in the hands of a person who plays the game AS THIER JOB.
Most Nurse players I deal with are average at best. I can loop most Nurses I come across and escape a chase from them but can't win because of very entitled baby teammates who DC as soon as they hear her scream. I can't win by myself and I definitely don't blame the Nurse....I blame the losers, yes I can call my teammates losers because they would rather DC and sabotage the team rather than play it out and try to improve their skills against her.
Every argument I see starts out with She ignores the basic mechanics of the game. Every time I see that I see them say "I can't pre drop pallets it Hold W against her so I won't try and learn how to beat her"
The issue is that no other Killer has such an adverse reaction from players as much as Nurse. I believe myself to be a far below average Nurse and I can get 4ks (or 3k+hatch when not slugging for 4k) with BP meme perks. No other Killer can perform at that level. When people are unwilling to take that risk that they are against a sub-optimal Nurse, that is the issue.
Your streamer tirade is irrelevant to the topic that was being discussed, because the argument was how popular the opinion was that Nurse is an issue. By showing numerous sources, it can reasonably be inferred, that this isn't a fringe opinion coming out of left field. This is a legitimate complaint shared by the userbase. If you watched the Otz video you would see that even with that weak 'ignore basic mechanics' argument there are still a multitude of real criticisms, and those criticisms are the ones you are dancing around by pretending there isn't an issue
@TheSubstitute said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3237427#Comment_3237427
You still haven't proven anything. Awakened Awareness was changed because the synergy with Nurse and Blight combined with Starstruck would have been too strong in survivors that stuck around in the TR instead of doing the sensible thing and getting away until Exposed run out. Thus, any potential issues never happened. If it didn't happen, it didn't become an issue.
All you're trying to argue is populist arguments with no factual basis. Why can't I point to the survivors then with the huge escape streaks of 100+ escapes and say survivor is too strong? It's not but it's the same tyoe of argument you're making instead of questioning why are there Killers with huge win streaks and SWFs with huge win streaks and could this possibly just mean the best players win a lot?
The stats as shown do not show an issue with Nurse for at least 95% of MMR and BHVR should not do balance changes for a tiny fraction of a playerbase when a larger amount of players would be negatively affected. BHVR, who would know the best if there is an issue, does not feel changing Nurse is a priority which implies they don't see an issue.
And, yes, I do blame the DCers and the ones who DC as soon as they hear a screech are the worst of the lot. Instead of a game that could have been winnable or at least give a safety pip or single pip they have now just shifted the odds solely to the Killer with their selfishness.
Pipping up to Iri One as solo queue survivor is annoying and harder to do than Killer. It's even worse if the DCers are the cause of a depip.
The Nurse player is not at fault for ruining a game because of a DCer. BHVR is not at fault. The DCer is at fault and is the problem. If they want to DC because they don't like a specific Killer they shouldn't be playing games where people rely on them. They are bad players in team based roles. Most of the Survivors I've talked to think DCers are selfish and immature. That doesn't prove anything and neither does your statement. What does prove something is that the DCer has an implied agreement to play the game as presented and they ruined the game for four other people by not following through not due to an understandable reason such as a RL issue but because they didn't feel like it. As this would be done with a disregard for the other players that definitely meets the definition of selfish.
I am trying to reason with you, but you are phrasing things in such a manner that it is impossible to fight on your turf. You will only allow evidence you deem fit, and even seeing things in front of your eyes you still dismiss them as if they never existed (eg. 4 insta-DCs).
You say Nurse isn't an issue, I proved they nerfed a PTB perk due to seeing how she made it a problem. You say other people don't think she is OP, then I list 4 different videos of content creators (of varying sizes and target demographics of the DBD community) all saying she is OP or needs to be dealt with in some fashion. You allude to other people not mattering, the only opinion of value is your own. You have this strange notion that people's responses to actions aren't at all influenced by the people who make or take those actions, seemingly to distance yourself from liability. If people DC on screech, how is that not a factual event? If you have witnessed multiple people DC on screech multiple times across different matches, how can you not understand there is a real chance that the Nurse pick is to blame? The same didn't happen at the same rate with any other Killer pick, so why when Nurse was the Killer, it is comparatively so common? Someone DCs when I hard tunnel off hook, makes sense as being Killer independent. Someone DCs on facecamping as an instadown Killer on first hook, makes sense as being Killer independent. Someone DCs on the first identifying marker of one Killer, it could only be connection issues (any DC first minute or so) or the Killer selection itself to blame for the root cause. If people are so disincentivized to play the game they 'agreed to play the game as presented' in one particular instance, that they are willing to soak escalating DC penalties to not deal with, how is that one particular instance not the root cause?
@bjorksnas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3237320#Comment_3237320
you brought up something outside of the argument (hours) to try and invalidate an opinion over the semantics of a word im out but I still don't agree
I don't believe it is outside the scope of the argument since it would be deterministic of what type of matches each of us could have witnessed. If I only played 3 hours there is a real chance of never seeing a hatch escape. If I played 3000 hours that likelihood is far smaller to non-existent. Similarly for easy and hard matches for either side. Less time played would lead to less likelihood of finding what made a match a free win or an impossibility (and everywhere in-between), and as such quite relevant to someone's perceptions of the game. I can't honestly say I've never had a free win/auto-loss (again as both sides) because I have played enough matches.
You also ignored 3 paragraphs containing ~11 sentences in favor of 1 sentence you took issue with, but if the 'don't agree' was applied to the rest of that, then fair enough.
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3237320#Comment_3237320
The only part that's accurate is that there are no sources or statistics and speaking to forum hate as a gauge is a very poor indicator of anything. Everything is complained about on a forum and there are no factual indicators Nurse is an issue. I like Nurse, other people have said they like Nurse and people are multiple times more likely to say something negative than positive.
People that are being empathetic don't DC on their teammates. If they dislike Nurse that much they can play Killer or a single player game as they're not well suited to play in a team role. Their temperament makes them bad players for a team role. They don’t like facing Nurse, whatever. Their teammates don't like going into a 3v1 when it should be a 4v1. The difference is that nobody made an agreement with the DCer they wouldn't play part of the game but there was an implied agreement among the survivors they would try to win the game.
"No factual indicators Nurse is an issue"
CertainKillers.pngRed emphasis mine. If you think they are referring to someone else I would love to hear how I am misunderstanding that it actually made Bubba too powerful in combination with Starstruck.
Also I don't like populist arguments (if that is the correct term), but when I am having someone who doesn't seem to understand what everyone else takes the understanding of for granted, I guess I have to show that everyone else knows it is a problem. Or at the very least there is some issue that needs changing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dfi1U4lP8s - OhTofu's The Nurse Problem
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QIW6juxPwQ - SupaAlf's This is the Real Problem with Nurse
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0KzlOCFGmk - not Otzdarva's The ACTUAL reason Nurse is OP...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLZK17GU7_A - Choy's Is Nurse's strength ruining Dead by Daylight?
As to the second part, one thing partially at fault is the branding of the game only half commits to the idea of Survivors being a team. If I recall correctly some of the original branding was something to the effect of "Survive together, or don't". Heck, the very existence of Yun-Jin encourages a certain level of screwing over your 'team-mates' for your own benefit (thank you the perk Self-Preservation, you take the hit so I can hide). While I agree that the game should be based on proper teamwork, even the game can't commit to that same standard. Also a common community sentiment of a DC against a Nurse is a joking 'wow gigachad' or 'they had the stones to do something I couldn't'. Most Survivors I run across don't blame their prospective teammate for a DC on the first screech, but they do blame them for sticking around for a bit then quitting mid way through.
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3236269#Comment_3236269
You don't have a source or statistic to say 'most' people don't like going against Nurse other than your own personal opinion. Your 2v2 analogy also isn't applicable as there is no previous agreement to not use Nurse. There is an implied agreement when you play the game that the game will be played as intended and Nurse is part of the game as intended. The only person who is breaking the agreement and ruining a game is the DCer.
As for Ghostface, I would say Nurse is the best test of individual skill especially at mind gaming. Ghostface needs buffs still and isn't that good but I still find Ghostface annoying due to the janky reveal mechanics and whether I escape depends on if everyone looks for him while working on gens. Still, a Ghostface that's a better Killer than the Survivor overall skill level will usually win and a worse one will usually lose (after RNG). I can cheese Ghostface though with the individual map such as the Game or Fractured Cowshed vs Shelter Woods. It's far more difficult to cheese Nurse with the map. However, my personal dislike for Ghostface does not mean that Ghostface is unbeatable, if anything Ghostface is weak, just as your dislike for Nurse does not mean Nurse is unbeatable or broken. Ghostface still needs buffs and Nurse doesn't need anything but not liking a Killer is not a reason to DC.
If somebody doesn't like a Killer they should express it but not through condoning DCs or DCing themselves. DCers are at fault for ruining games and nobody else. If it's not hackers, hostage taking or a real life issue there is no reason that is not entirely selfish to DC.
You lack any source or statistic for Nurse being enjoyable either, so we are both only speaking to our understanding of the game and humanity. This video from Choy is the closest I can come to providing evidence for my argument. As far as no previous agreement that is your willingness to ignore the 'honor among thieves' concept of 'even I won't go that far unless I got a tome/daily'. Nearly everyone is kind in endgame chat to me when I say I played Nurse due to either of those things. Although I also purposely ignore people off hook for the rescuer and beeline past them due to the sheer simplicity in using Nurse without a controller if someone has 5+games on her. I can also run mostly BP perks (Distressing, Beast of Prey and/or Thrill of the Hunt, Lethal and/or BBQ) and still get 12 hooks purposely only going after rescuers/people not hooked recently.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASrkxft2VfsA Ghostie chasing is a bad Ghostie in general. They might be a good Killer in general, but preventing the chase is Ghostie's strong suit. If you let them reach the pallet on the Game you misplayed your approach. The tactic for Ghostie is to 99 the stalk around the corner until they run off, and take a 50/50 of waiting for them to go back on the gen or to go for someone else. Going for someone else is the better play against good Survs, waiting is better against bad (in general).
Also the hatred towards Nurse is quite evident on nearly every community (these forums, reddit, etc.) so they are speaking and yelling their displeasure only to fall on deaf ears. The unheard lash out when ignored. That is why I understand what would drive someone to the events of the video linked. Again not condoning or endorsing, just having enough basic human empathy to understand.
@bjorksnas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3236031#Comment_3236031
People can bring in strong things, I don't say survivors don't want a real match if they bring 4 meta perks each 4 medkits, and a map offering, it seems to only be a killer specific thing that survivors don't want to try if the killer is good and is playing something that can put practice into that has decent translation into results
There are no easy wins just easier wins the killer still has to play the game but if they tools they have are harder to used and they trained to use them how is that their fault on top of perks being improvements rather than choosing to bring perks that do nothing
killer ban systems are just a no, we have already seen what it does when you have a block system against specific players nurse mains didn't get matches (iirc this is mandytalks story about someone they knew / friend) and all that would happen is people pick the 5 strongest things because they have a better chance at winning then (sounds coincidental?) but without any of the skill involved
Map system is meh giving killers outs on what maps they don't want to go to is just an overall killer buff which I don't think they need at the moment unless the devs make more changes towards camping / tunneling / slugging as a counterbalance
People can bring strong things, but that is only relative to what their opposition brought. If the Surv brought Stakeout against a Stealth Killer, they lose a large percentage of the value, same with healing against Plague, and the will to ever play the game again against Starstruck Nurse.
If you legitimately think there are no easy wins then I would have to assume you have less than 100 hours, because I have had my fair share of no effort wins, dang near impossible matches, and everything in-between.
Killer bans I think would be fine at a 20% ratio. No one has to play the most busted/annoying Killer every match back to back. Typically people against that type of ban are one tricks for whatever flavor of the month is most overpowered at the moment in that particular game. I have fun playing Trapper, Wraith, Nurse, Myers, Huntress, Bubba, Pig, Clown, Spirit, Legion, Ghostie(my current fave), Demo, Deathslinger, Blight, Nemmy, Onion Ring, Dredge, and Weskie. (Billy only isn't on that list due to the defunding of the space program, so I am boycotting using him until his rocketship is returned.) There is a massive variety of Killer experiences, and just because 5 Killers (not players) might be banned by one player, doesn't make every other Killer unplayable. It would only impact matchmaking times, and that would be a net positive for people who actually want to play the game with variety.
The map bans is more to give Killers something with the Killer ban, and also a bad band-aid for fixing maps. Both ban systems are meant to also serve as a form of feedback for the devs, that if something is banned at a disproportionately high rate, it probably needs to be altered in some manner. I would also have a variety ban that doesn't count toward these numbers, and only bans the most recent Killer/map (up to the 5 bans for the 5 most recent if you wanted the variety ban for all 5 slots).
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3236244#Comment_3236244
I did read your post. Your point is invalid though. I like playing against Nurse and do do a lot of other people. I find Ghostface extremely annoying. I don't DC against Ghostface because other people might like playing against Ghostface, I'm not the only person in the match and if I'm going to play in a team role I should put forward my best effort. The game then ends and I move on to a match I like more.
If you DC against Nurse or any Killer just because you don't like that Killer you are being a bad player in a team based role. The fault is on the DCer only and not anyone else.
I am sure many people enjoy Nurse, but when the majority does not, clearly there is a problem. That is where the '2 or 3 Surv's game being ruined' claim comes from. It is like if you play a 2v2 on a team slayer map on Halo and most people agreed to not use the rocket when playing 2v2s. It would partially be the company's fault for not altering the map from the 4v4 default version for the 2v2 playlist, partially the individual's fault for using the rockets, and partially the community's fault for not boycotting the game until the rockets were removed from 2v2s on that map, reduced in ammo, slowed respawn rate, or otherwise changed. Most people still enjoy the 2v2s (or the rest of the game), and a slim percentage like using rockets on 2v2s, and it is that difference in opinion where the clash is for Nurse in this analogy.
I do find it strange that you would dislike going against a Killer where the most individual skill is put on display on the Survivor's end though. If you are a 'god'-looper he is not a problem. Also barring the rift skin's bugged pay-to-win silence, he has plenty of visual and auditory tells for his appearance/arrival, giving Survivors plenty of opportunity for counterplay. Also unlike Myers/Plague/Oni/etc. you cannot be penalized by the Killer's Power for your teammate's failings, as Ghostie has the individual stalk bars on each Surv. He also is only limited to basic M1 potential, barring on demand red-light removal and crouching for medium height loops. The core kit is still based around 4.6 ultimately though.
Overall the DC problem is what I view as a symptom of not having a ban system as described in my other post. A ban system could prevent Survs and Killers from feeling hopeless and not wanting to play from the onset, and still allow the majority of the game to be accessible when only a comparatively small thing ruins an individual's experience enough to drive them to DC.
Also I don't know if I clarified in this thread, but I don't hard DC. I might become demoralized and sit on gens when I see my teammate crouch into the basement for the 5th time in a single match, but I still try to progress the match. I just understand why people would DC (see above basement croucher for one example among many*), and see the penalty against the DC being symptomatic treatment, instead of treating the disease so to speak. It is a poor band-aid fix that has long overstayed its welcome, and the source cause needs to be properly addressed.
*[EDIT: I DO NOT ENDORSE DCs, I am simply saying I can understand how someone else could reach that incorrect result. Sadly I believe I have to clarify because I was falsely warned in the past for 'endorsing' something I wasn't endorsing.]
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3236031#Comment_3236031
Nurse is a part of the game. If you are DCing just because you're dealing with a part of the game, especially over something that occurs less than 10% of the time, you should stop being selfish and go to a single player game or role such as Killer.
By DCing you are only spoiling the experience for four other people. If you have to DC over something that occurs so infrequently you should not be playing in a role where people rely on you to put in a good faith effort.
The DCer is the one at fault for ruining the experience for other people; not the Killer, not BHVR, only the DCer.
I see you didn't read my reply to the other person. Rephrased here, by knowing people dislike Nurse so heavily, anyone picking her would bear some of the responsibility for early suicides on hook/DCs because they know that is a very common result. They queued up knowing they would 'ruin' 2 or 3 on average Survivor's experience (in a 4 Surv match), and if one of those 2 or 3 DC as a result, increasing the 'ruined' experience to 4 or 5 players in the match total, the Nurse player shoulders some (not all) of the blame there. Part of the blame also lies on BHVR for allowing those Killers and actions to exist in that state. When Nurses don't shoulder any part of that blame, is when they truly lack the cognitive awareness that people dislike Nurse to that extreme, and their skills match that cognitive awareness, in only allowing them kills through facecamping, or Survivors greeding for 4-man escapes.
I don't get to pretend my actions don't have consequences, especially when someone else does something in direct response to my actions or inactions. If I don't feed my pet fish, I can't pretend that if they try to eat each other it isn't my fault. If I play like a scumbag as Killer, I should expect t-bags when the Survs can get away with it. If I play like a scumbag as Surv, I should expect to be facecamped and/or hit on hook. If I queue up with my 'story-mode' difficulty build, I shouldn't be surprised when I get so many easy 'wins', even if that rate was artificially inflated by some people DCing to avoid such debauchery.
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3233339#Comment_3233339
Then the DCer should play single player games until they feel like sticking with the game. As well, they forfeit any credibility with complaining about game mechanics of any Killer (or survvivor mechanics if the DCer is a Killer) if they can't even stick to a single game.
Is one match indicative of the entire game? There are a wide variety of potential experiences that can occur, and disliking less than 10% of those experiences is more than valid.
@bjorksnas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3233339#Comment_3233339
That entire statement is just an excuse to ruin other players experiences and skip around what you signed up for
They have a solid list of killers they KNOW what they might go up against so if after a certain amount of hours you just give up and stop even learning or preparing for certain things that's just an excuse and ruining the match for the other 4 players also doesn't help you learn it
Also its not the killers fault that survivors can't complete a challenge its not their intension to do so and is usually just bad luck so if you are deciding that your bad luck should become other peoples bad luck by ruining the match for them that's not a very healthy mindset
Both sides can bring whatever they want because its in the game and meant to be available to use how you want it, however you play by the rules, play out what you signed up for, and don't ruin the experience of others by not playing the game
Strange to say "ruin other player's experiences" in a defense of playing Nurse. A Nurse pick in and of itself ruins a very high percentage of the player base's experience(Blight too, to a lesser degree), so by picking that Killer, the Killer player chose to statistically 'ruin' 2 or 3 out of 5 people's experience if we were to follow your logic. Also if it ruined one of those people's experience enough to cause a DC/quit, the Killer pick was indirectly responsible for ruining the experience for everyone else that wanted a 'real' match, possibly rising that to 4 or 5 out of 5. It is possible to not know that people don't like playing against Nurse/Blight, but that requires such a disconnect from reality that I don't think their skill level would be able to support killing Survivors other than through facecamping, or Survs throwing for the 4 man out.
Also the 'might' is the issue, they might have a 'real' match, or they might have the 5th Blight match in a row. I cannot blame anyone for being sick of any Killer on 5 times repeat 1/29^5 (or ~.000005% of matches) or Nurse 1/29 (3.4% of matches). That is a solid ~96% of 'real' matches. Some games have connection issues preventing more proper matches, so that is an acceptable margin of failure in my eyes.
Some people bring scummy things, and by doing so they prove they want an easy 'win'. These are the people who should be playing a single-player game since they want to play a multiplayer game on 'story-mode' difficulty. What is the issue with their opposition shortcutting to the mostly foregone conclusion? Especially if they brought a meme build that can't compete with their opponent's scummy build. What is the difference in the 'win' happening at the 2 minute mark instead of the 20? 18 minutes of people's time and energy being saved for a potential 'real' match, the kind of match that brings people back to the game, enjoying their time, and willing to spend more money on the game. Theoretically I have a greater chance of winning against a Starstruck Nurse when I get the 4% kobe, than when I get rescued by a teammate. It is the best chance of success, which is sad given how low that chance is. I'd say about 90% of my teammates get caught en route (either from them being bad, them giving up on seeing Starstruck, or the Nurse's intel perks), which compared to my cumulative ~11.5% 3 Kobe chance, is better to go for the Kobe.
Now other games have a feature to ban unique characters that would otherwise be unenjoyable, overpowered, or ruin your experience. I would have a Killer ban system for Survivors, that allows 1 ban per 5 Killers released/not killswitched (5 now at 29 total, and 6 when the next Killer is released at 30 total). (SWF would either use the lobby leader's bans, or cycle through each person's bans to create a list of the max bans Eg. 3 bans for (1)Nurse/Blight/Doctor and (2)Nurse/Plague/Oni would take Nurse(1)/Plague(2)/Blight(1)) That way people who hate Nurse/Blight don't have to go against them, people with epilepsy or issues with strobing/flashing don't have to go against Doctor, and people with emetophobia don't have to go against Plague. Similarly I would give Killers a map/realm ban at the same 1/5 rate. That way Blight doesn't have to cry about swamp, and stealth Killers won't have to tear their face off attempting to play on Blood Lodge.
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@Carmina_is_cute said:
The DCs do suggest a dissatisfaction with the game but the cases where people DC are inconclusive as to why. I've seen people DC for the tiniest inconveniences. Downed quickly with hatchets? DC. Swarmed with birds from the other side of the map? DC. Map they don't like (that isn't RPD, fair DC)? DC.
To be fair to the Hatchet example I love playing against a low latency Huntress, but a high latency match (myself or her) involving Huntress is a nightmare to me. Every DBD youtube channel under the sun has a compilation of BS hatchet hits, and any DC against Huntress (whether my victims or my teammates) I just interpret as a false hit and not wanting to play under such redic conditions.
@TheSubstitute said:
People insta-DC against Nurses and Blights because they can't be bothered to figure out the counterplay and they're selfish enough to not care about the effect on the rest of the team.
Or they know the counterplay, but have no intention of sweating their butts off when they wanted a chill match until they saw the Agi Starstruck or DMS/PR.
@Veinslay said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3233098#Comment_3233098
Survivors only like killers that they can loop for five gens without breaking a sweat. If BHVR listened to feedback from survivors, all 28 killers would be Pig clones
This is so out of touch with reality and all too tribalistic. The opposite and equally false argument would be "All Killers facecamp if you dropped a pallet on them once, and they always run the build to support facecamping."
@bjorksnas said:
People dcing against killers they don't like isn't a wake up call its a cop out that they are too scared to actually play the game they signed up to play
It also could be someone signing up to read a book and then are forced to read an entire library. Someone can easily see they are out of their depth and not like that. Similarly they could attempting a tome, and the Killer's mechanics or playstyle prevents the tome from being possible. For example a heal tome against Plague. They can't complete their goal, so they decide to move on to a match where they can, by DC or by suicide on hook or by not attempting to run the Killer at all. If we are going to apply the logic that one side can bring whatever they want, and play however they want, then the other side needs to have that same right.
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@kingcarl2012 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3232082#Comment_3232082
The thing is killers that hard tunnel are just going to do it anyways they dont care about DS, instead what you get is killers that try not to tunnel getting hit with a DS and then tunneling because they already are getting punished for it.
The best Idea i have heard is the DS stun tying into the number of gens, with it scaling based on how many gens are left.
I still dont think DS is the solution for the issue of tunneling, a better solution would be like 10 seconds of 100% invisibility, no blood scratchmarks sound or collision with the killler, that can be cancelled if you feel safe and want to heal, and like 4 seconds of aura read on the unhooker for the killer, and the same for the unhooked survivor on the killer. For the record I am aware that half of what I just described is basically a basekit Babysitter with invisibility, but I think that would do far more for tunnelling than DS ever would and there is pretty much no way that could be used offensively against the killer, it is purely anti tunnel protection.
Edit: It would probably need to get downgraded to just the basekit borrowed time in endgame.
Interestingly enough I came up with that same invis concept as a sister mechanic for basekit BT. Guardian perk would extend the invis and no tracking aspects just as BT extends the haste and endurance. Similarly I also ended it in endgame, but allowed the Guardian extended duration to apply in endgame.
It along with many other changes I put in this mockup design document for improvements for both sides across the board. It was in Problem 2 of the below document.
These are different avenues of buffing desired behaviors, and nerfing undesired ones. BP is not enough of an incentive, there must be mechanical rewards and punishments for gameplay acts. I don't quite care for credit, but I wouldn't want someone to steal the ideas and credit themselves. So because of that my name is Mark, and I am currently not a content creator or streamer. I am just someone who enjoys the peaks of the game, and hates the valleys.I will say in retrospect I was too hard on Nurse for the camping segment, and if I sought to improve it, that is one of many fixes that would need to be made.
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@kingcarl2012 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/350993/d-strike-needs-a-buff-for-qol
Yeah sorry but no, your suggested ds isnt an anti tunneling perk, it would go back to being used to attack killers who arent even trying to tunnel.
You get 10 sec of borrowed time with haste, even f you get hit you still get a sprint burst to get away and get to a structure.
The bigger problem is the unhooker, too often now the unhooker bails instead of protecting the person they unhook because they have borrowed time.
Killers never have to hard tunnel the unhooked survivor, and if Survivors are attempting to 'offensively' use DS, they are actually giving Killers a free slug and extra pressure regardless. A Killer can just take that free pressure and snowball a victory regardless of re-hooking them. Even then, Survivors can never 'attack' a Killer with DS, as Survivors never can force a Killer to pick them up or out of a locker. It is entirely the Killer's decision to grab them.
As far as the hiding unhooker, it kind of is a perpetuating problem. The Killer hard tunnels through BT and theoretical DS, so the unhooker knows it is just better to hop on a gen ASAP. A lack of intel perks from the Killer is now being considered the Survivor's fault. Floods of Rage for example hard counters unhook and hide. A Killer BMs a Survivor, so the Survivor brings the countermeasures the next match. Afterwards the Survivor does the same to the next Killer, and the arms race cycle repeats itself. If basekit solutions are made to prevent the worst, then the game will be much more enjoyable. Survivors could get basekit DS (disabled with Prot Hits), and Killers could get a reveal on the unhooking survivor if they perform an action at the hook, perhaps with a small Haste boost to make up for lost time in the action.
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@Sava18 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3228396#Comment_3228396
Absolutely incorrect. Pale rose just simply lacks bump logic in most areas. If you get hit at a lot of the areas of the map you played terribly. Pale rose simply just lacks collision for the most part. Like something you would never know without playing blight a lot is the fact that certain MacMillan trees that are nearly identical to the other have either 0 collision or only a very certain angle with collision. Now imagine that on swamp but it's nearly every tree. There is no skill expression when you don't have the potential to actually express anything. The map is just old and was never made with good collision in mind, that's it. Now a map like Ormond where there is very little collision out in the snow field, that can be skill expressive once you know about what has collision and what doesn't. A lot of the tiles in cold wind and red forest have no collision on any wall except the very end, which can also be played around once known. Yamaoka also has the problem CoffeeCrashing mentioned where most of the trees roots stick up, making your feet touch first and thus having no collision to work with. I think Otz actually mentioned swamp being a map that good blights can make the lack of collision work towards their advantage, even though I love otz he knows very little about blight and is not very good at him as a result. He even thinks dpi still affects blight in any advantageous way lol.
There are very few maps that are actually bad for blight
Swamp - very little collision to work around
Yamaoka - less collision to work around
Garden of Pain - way way too much collision to work around
That sporadic lacking of bump logic is where the skill expression exists, where you have to know what you can and cannot bump off of, like you mentioned with Ormond. I'm confused how you can say the exact same concept makes it skilled on Ormond, but not on swamp. That is similarly the Yamaoka skill expression. Knowing what does and doesn't work for bumps is a combination of Killer specific skill, and map knowledge skill.
I do agree with Garden of Joy though, moreso because the visuals never match the hitboxes on anything in that map. Chainsaw and ranged Killers have no chance with trusting their eyes, and have to assume there is an extra 2 feet hanging off of each object in each direction. Strangely enough even the roadside guard rails appear to have extra height above them blocking hatchets.
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@WeakestNurseMain said:
So the entire point behind docking killers points if they camp and adding reassurance is to make killers camp less, but why is camping optimal for almost every single killer?
You downed a survivor and hooked them in your 3 gen? Camp.
You're playing Hag/Trapper and you hook someone in a building? Camp.
You're playing Trickster/Bubba? Well, here's some fun trivia: you're power is the best power for camping, and that's pretty much all you can against good survivors.
You're playing any killer that isn't Nurse/Blight with the strongest addons and perks? Well if you want to win at high mmr, better pitch that tent early. With 3k hours into this game, I still can't win without camping, there's pretty much no "gitting gud" from here, I know every map and tile in and out, I know how to loop it and how to chase it as every killer, but put simply there is just no time for me to finish 12 chases with most killers. At this point I really just want BHVR to give survivors a tool so broken that they're forced to fix killer gameplay.
That sounds more like relying on a crutch for victories finally came back around to bite you in the rear. This technically is the desired outcome of the matchmaking system, win until you can't consistently win with the same tactics, forcing you to learn more or better tactics instead. The theoretical facecamping Bubba only wins when the first chase is sufficiently short. As he goes up in MMR he faces people with the skills to extend that first chase long enough to force a loss (As seen in Otz's facecamp test when he was ran forever on Ormond).
The problem is since camping is so anti-fun for everyone involved, Survivors throw themselves into the camping meat-grinder to inject some fun into the match. This gives even more artificial camping wins, which artificially inflates kill rates further for the Killer. This ultimately perpetuates the cycle until Survivors can either willingly take the 3 man out, or risk trying for the 4. This Killer MMR limbo is where skill will allow for victories that don't rely on the camping crutch.
Snowballing pressure is the best way to win as Killer, but most players are scared to lose 1-5 gens to setup their win condition. With over-reliance on slowdown, lethality and intel are ignored. With lethality and intel, you can make those weaker short-term plays to force actions out of your opposition for stronger long-term plays. The most chill a build can be is with a 2/1/1 split between the 3 categories for Killer, the specific category splits being Killer dependent. The strangest and best way I heard this concept being described is how slowdown perks are Killer's 2nd chance perks. If I SH:PR, I saved 13.5 gen seconds on the most advanced gen, which could buy me the time I need just as DH gives a longer time in chase. That longer time in chase is less time on hook, and less time on hook, is less pressure on the team. Similarly shorter time in chase increases that pressure on the Survivor team, so Lethality can shortcut this procedure. Intel is also invaluable since you can know where people are, and by playing Survivor, you know their most likely actions. The least hooked person will attempt a rescue (usually), so if you chase them off without damaging them, the Survivors might not know someone else needs to rescue. Similarly if you do damage that person, you know someone else likely will attempt the rescue as a result. In that case you have to weigh how long it will take to finish the chase on the injured person, versus swapping aggro to hinder the new would be rescuer. Intel can tell you which gen or approach they will be at or taking, and ensure that interception would be more successful, or to know to finish the chase on the current person.
Basically stop limping with camping, and dare to sprint. You will fall on the way, but eventually you can run a marathon.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3229289#Comment_3229289
Blight's camera angle originally was super low, as if his waist was the ground level, and he was able to bump off of short objects originally. The camera being raised caused the bug, because it accidently raised his bump hitbox so that any object that sticks out below his waist cannot be bumped off of.
And the traffic cone/triangle concept is incorrect. It's not the shape of the objects, it's whether or not Blight's hitbox touches an object with his bump hitbox, or if some other body part touches the object first (either below his waist, or above his shoulders). The new shack walls aren't traffic cone shaped or triangle shaped, but the short rock wall that surrounds the new shacks do stick out below Blight's waist, and that is what causes Blight to slide. The same thing happens with some basement stair walls, where a very tiny horizontal board is along the bottom of the walls, and that causes Blight to slide. And the small trash bags, or other small objects can be any shape they want to be, and they can still cause Blight to slide.
The same thing happens to objects that hit Blight's head or neck, because those aren't part of his bump hitbox either.
Gotcha, the traffic cone concept worked for me when I decided to learn more about Blight, and only went for distant objects for bounces. The 'too close to bounce' concept seems more like an exception to the rule. Even then when I first dabbled with Blight with his groin height camera, bounces seemed easy enough to get to work. It was just annoying on say Swamp and Autohaven maps to have the loop be taller than your character's camera, when every other killer in the game (at the time) could see over it. I honestly would be fine with reverting the camera change and the follow-up fixes in order to fix all the bugs at this point though.
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@fake said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3228396#Comment_3228396
I am claiming that Pale Rose, currently in 6.3.0 patch notes.
The main building, the ship, is experiencing non-vaultable windows and transparent walls on the stairs. This is the same as one major chase point being rendered unusable for the survivor.
I saw this as a serious game-breaking bug that needed to be temporarily kill-switched.
This is not a complaint about map design or balance... My apologies.
Gotcha, I haven't played that map this update yet so I didn't know until I googled a vid of that after you explained here. That's a fair reason for a kill switch, but also understandable if they decide not to since they mentioned the specific window.
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3228396#Comment_3228396
Blight's camera view used to be a lot lower, and his collision is based on his camera view, and he was originally able to bump off of short objects. When Blight's camera view was raised, it created a collision bug, because Blight's bump hitbox became the area between his shoulders and waist, and that made him unable to bump off of anything that sticks out below his waist. This was confirmed to be a bug by the dev that created Blight.
BHVR spent months trying to fix this collision bug, because it was very clear it was a bug, and BHVR wanted to fix it. We ended up with a secondary collision system to try to fix this collision bug, but it never worked as intended, and it created an additional bug along the way. When BHVR tried fixing this additional bug, it created hug tech. BHVR was also dealing with a string of exploits that happened around this time, because every time they tried fixing something, it created a new bug or exploit. BHVR finally gave up on Blight, and we're still stuck with the short object bug.
Wait was that back when the camera was more or less groin height? So was the camera being raised the bug, or artificially lowered being fixed making a side effect bug as a result? Even then I haven't had much issues with using his power as long as I remembered the traffic cone/triangle concept for bumps.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3227243#Comment_3227243
Blight’s short object bug, has been in the game for far longer than his hug tech bug. On average, Blight’s short object bug hurts Blight far more than hug tech helps Blight.
Where are the forum threads, filled with people demanding for the short object bug to be fixed?
Do you mean how you slide off of traffic cone shaped objects? That is the basic learning curve of how to use Blight. If map geometry is shaped like a cone/triangle, then you can't bump.
@fake said:
This may not be the topic of this thread, but Pale Rose in 6.3.0 should meet the kill switch requirement!
Swamp maps are some of the most enjoyable due to varied height without RPD/The Game's oft complained problem of excessive floors, outer tiles often being not entirely worthless in the form of pog-logs, good balance of open and walled off areas for ranged and stealth/trap players (also tall grass and short grass aplenty), and it is the only realm where skilled Blights can show off their map knowledge, due to the abundance of cone shaped objects.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3226655#Comment_3226655
No. I think the only thing most people are considering here, is "bugs that benefit survivors should stay" and "bugs that benefit killers should be fixed".
Blight has a bug that is in his favor, and an even bigger bug that hurts his performance, but you don't see survivors asking for both bugs to be fixed. They only ask for the bug that is in Blight's favor to be fixed.
I mean you can hold that opinion if you want. In general however, for the game to have a healthy result you need a 4-1 player base as much as possible. I can understand feeling outnumbered, but the simplistic and tribalistic thinking of "us vs them" from either perspective is very reductive, and ultimately self-sabotaging. People will typically advocate in their self-interest, so it is up to BHVR to interpret our writings with that in mind. When you basically scream "I'm a killer main" then some legitimate criticisms of yours may go unheard due to the how of the complaint, instead of the merits being properly viewed.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
I just wish both bugs got equal treatment. The Blight bug had a bunch of threads filled with people complaining that it should be fixed immediately, and that bugs should be fixed.
The flashlight bug threads are mostly people saying “wouldn’t it be fun if we could do this forever!!!!!!!!” What happened to all the people that demanded that bugs should be fixed?
I think the strength that bugs provide is quite relevant to consideration. "Hug tech" is closer in strength to the perma-breakdown bug back when, rather than the current flashbang bug. The breakdown bug was more powerful than "hug tech", but both sure as heck (are/were) annoying when facing them. They also both ha(d/ve) counterplay, but it is not enjoyable to engage in it. Also the value gained can be compared to the effort put in, as well as how often they can be utilized. HT (RMB+W+AimDown) and BD(get hooked) require(d) little to no effort on the user's end, whereas Flashbangs require half a gen each. In Flashbang's case, if someone got 7 grenades, I think the Killer has greater issues than 7 flashbangs going off in their face.
Another thing to note is that this is coming off of the nerf/bug-removal of Blast Mine. As far as players were aware, the old functionality was the proper form that was unchanged for over a year. The bug removal appeared to be a nerf instead of a bug-fix, especially since it wasn't touched in all this time (or even declared as a bug before being "fixed"). I think many people's perception is "lose one gain another" in terms of we "lost" Blast Mine, and now we "gain" Flashbang.
More importantly in regards to Blast Mine/Flashbang is that these are "meme" perks, and you could instead grab a meta perk and get far greater average value per match. "Hug Tech" is extra potential strength on the 2nd strongest Killer. This would be more akin to something like Off The Record (a meta perk) having the timer be glitched and permanently granting no aura reads and no grunts of pain until the gates are powered. Such a theoretical bug adds additional strength on something that is already powerful, that the opposition can still technically play around.
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Mandy posted in this linked thread confirming "hug tech" as a bug. (I don't know how to link to a specific post so I linked the thread and cut the image alone below so no one has to go back to that thread other than to confirm the picture wasn't photoshopped, just cropped from the thread. Her post was on the first page of the thread if it sends you to any other page for whatever reason.)
@hatchetChugger said:
Do you consider blight tech (ie. moonrushing, hug tech) exploits? If you do think they are exploits, why?
My question is more due to the lax nature I have seen around bug abuse in general, and wanted to include a Survivor and Killer exclusive bug to maintain parity more or less.
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It would have been far better adapted from his Volcano appearance, so his Wesker genes, blight, and uroboros, could all be intertwined to create the 'perfect' organism.
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Lose re-usable Blast Mine, gain stackable Flashbangs? Sounds like a fair trade to me. You still need to progress the gens to get flashbangs.
I would only ask that if this is made intentional that some form of visual feedback to show more than 1 is added. That way you can counter a Surv if you see a second one on their belt earlier for example, and you already dodged the first one you heard click.
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Pig mains don't want you to know this, but this is a secret technique to raise kill rates. If you boop when losing, the Pig can afford to let you meme. If you boop while tied or winning, the Pig can, if they so choose, take advantage of that and get some free pressure. The power of memes must be used responsibly, and mains know when to leverage this advantage correctly. People who aren't mains will instead go to the far extreme of either side more often. They will either always go for snoot booping, or always kick you in the face for daring to touch them.
One final note if you are the Obsession and the Pig crouches on you they clearly are going for Snoot Boops, not trying to preserve STBFL stacks. Please just stand still in the open.
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@Dead_Harder said:
They keep improving the survivor experience. They made it so you get 10 seconds of BT and can move as fast as some killers as base kit to help survivors with tunneling. They added a perk that gives you 80 seconds of endurance + aura reveal immunity and grunt of pain removal. Pretty good vs tunneling even if you dont get the endurance part because noise removal + aura immunity helps a bunch during chases and those parts stay on even if you touch gens/heal yourself.
They added a perk thats really good against camping albeit not as insane as it could have been.
They are trying to add a way to pick yourself up which is again really good.
They are doing basically everything in their power to make the game as fun as possible for survivors as well as killers. What exactly do you want them to do? What are you unsatisfied with. What would you like to see improved?
Oh cool so I can use all these anti-tunnel effects combined with each other to be even more resistant to tunneling right? Wait BT is 10s endurance and you can't benefit from endurance while deep wounded. So I can't use basekit (or perk bonus) BT and OTR against a tunneling Killer in concert? I can't even have DS since it was nerfed into oblivion against anyone with a Killer power. OTR is a new perk with these amazing effects, it didn't have Aura and Grunts of pain prevention before the patch, oh wait, it did, they only added the endurance, which as mentioned can only happen once. Heck, even DH now uses endurance so there isn't any real good anti-tunnel exhaustion effects at all.
Anti-camping perk - They hard gutted Reassurance from the PTB since it can't be reapplied so you can't have someone co-op camp with the Killer permanently Reassuring the person on hook. Heck, most of the time you can't even get real value from the perk against facecamping since it takes more than 30s to reach the hook and back to progress a gen. Arguably you could take the 30 bonus seconds and give that to your 2 fellow unhooked survs for gen progress, but more than likely they need to confirm the camp themselves AND not go for a rescue against the facecamp for that to even give you the value.
Perma self-pickups - That is still in PTB, so we don't know how exactly the real version will turn out yet. Even then people have been throwing fits claiming slugging is impossible now, acting like their spacebar is broken and hooking Survs provides no value. Heck you can still snowball with Oni since his power lasts 45s, losing 7s per down, for a total of 24s of in power time. That gives snowball Oni downs 21s to pick up the first Surv, and then can hook the remaining 2 in order of downs (assuming max downs without the auto-win feature activating). Overall though it is good fixing 4 minute bleedouts.
This isn't even limited to Survs. Boons should have been optionally smashable basekit, not only with a perk and forced. Similarly proper counters to facecamping and hard tunneling off of hook should be basekit, not perk gated. The perk versions should be for the middle-ground cases like proxy-camping and toggle tunneling, toggle tunneling being only hooking Survivors in 1,2,1,2,1,2,3,4 sequence.
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@ReviloDBD said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3214280#Comment_3214280
Just to make sure I understand correctly, the technique on Bubba you are referring to is using his Chainsaw sweeps to gain distance, for example while not in chase, in order to get distance on map to the gens or area that you wanna check right?
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3214453#Comment_3214453
I admit that his burst in chase to catch up to a Survivor that's actually out in the open with his sweeps is pretty incredible sometime, especially with the proper addons if they aren't expecting it ^^
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3214578#Comment_3214578
Well to be honest that might be because of camping sadly....
Anyways thanks for all ther replies! I have been enjoying playing him, most the Survivors I am facing are not that great yet though oddly (cause all my other killers I face much higher prestige survivors) but I have faced a few that make it seem unfair to be playing as Bubba cause how easily they can force him into traps and stuff lol...
Still overall, I'm enjoying him quite a bit more than I expected.
Bubba Saw for distance - yepperino. Some people are lazy, some lack the knowledge, but in general it is quite useful to use Bubba saw for Mobility. It is especially useful as it is an unlimited self-replenishing resource. Even then I would even recommend players newer to Bubba to go for those earlier mid-chase saws. You may lose some matches early due to it, but in the long run you'll learn the exact distance you can snipe a third charge saw hit with your current add-on combo. People like to greed pallets when you go for such early saws, so you can get free downs as a result eventually. If they pre-drop the pallet you save even more time, so it is a win-win for you. It also will make you bump on terrain, so you can better understand how wide you need to take some loops. That kinda requires the mindset of playing to learn, as opposed to playing to win every match though. Not everyone can do that, but it is still a valuable effort regardless.
Some other Killers also have such resources but they are typically more limited in some fashion or another. Demo, for example, only gains reasonable distance with Shreds when he has the high ground.
(Demo technically can move at a theoretical perfect average of ~5m/s with back to back 1s full charge Shreds, but you lose too much distance and value without perfectly doing that [hitting walls, charging too long, not being able to scan horizon, etc.]. If you charge for 1.5s you can still have a respectable ~4.8m/s speed. This can be further increased to a theoretical perfect ~5.2m/s with Mew's guts [2s Shred missed CD instead of 2.25s]. Rat Liver can add only about .01m/s for the Mobility average, so it isn't worth using even if going for Shred Mobility meme builds.)
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@RaSavage42 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3216263#Comment_3216263
No... you didn't you are just saying to try it again (but to give you credit)... Those are two different things
What does all that even mean... do you read what you type (to make sure what you have typed makes sense)
I don't have all of the answers either... but again you didn't come up with anything
Oh and that mistake became Kinship... so read that perk and see if you said the same things
It made perfect sense to me, it is basic logic, but logic isn't everyone's strong suit. Maybe formatting it differently?
Problem: Camping
Solution: Slow hook to half speed when Killer nearby (24m?)
Follow-up problem: Survivors "abuse" Slow hook by hanging around hook
Follow-up solution: Do not slow hook during chase
Follow-up problem of follow-up solution: Killer cheeses by entering chase and preventing rescues still camping
Follow-up solution to immediate above: Chase duration of "Follow-up Solution" must be longer than any previous chase since that person was hooked.
I came up with everything below "Follow-up problem" as you said they gave up when "Follow-up problem" showed itself, or at least it sounded like that was when they didn't work on it further.
"My" is in quotes below to refer to the changes as well as the slowed hook concept in the entirety as explained in the above section in this post. Since it isn't fully mine I am not trying to take full credit, but still want to quickly refer to the full concept.
"My" counter to camping doesn't work the same way as Kinship, as it slows, doesn't pause. Kinship is a perk that needs to be Survivor activated, "my" version is basekit and Killer activated (toggled more accurately).
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3216166#Comment_3216166
It's just hard to believe that you have it that easy as killer. Many killer players like myself know how to chase normally, and if it weren't for that knowledge, we couldn't camp or tunnel as effectively because the survivor wouldn't be on the hook in the first place. There's no room to grow as a new killer, because if you just go for chases, you're gonna lose at a certain point. Killers don't want to lose over and over, due to gen speed, not because of survivors looping really well, just to get good with killer. When they get good, they'll come to the same conclusion that we have, which is that it just isn't worth it, and you're better off tunneling.
You're pointing out exactly what I'm saying. Killers that suck need gen defense and need to tunnel. We just disagree on how much of the killer roster sucks. I think everyone but Nurse, Blight, and maybe Artist and Wesker sucks. They don't have the potential to down quick enough to stop the gens from all getting done. I'm experimenting with Pain Res/Overcharge/Pop right now, and maybe that will change my mind. But I still think those perks at least by themselves are way overrated. If anything, I am playing hard mode from everyone else's pov, because I don't use Call Of Brine/Overcharge/Eruption. I think it's countered by gen tapping.
Don't let some misplaced sense of honor take away your win. There's no stinking honor in any of this, and even if there was, the survivors aren't gonna recognize that because they insult you whether you play fair or not. If you get 3-4 kills, regardless of the means, you win. I would love to be your opponent if I knew that you wouldn't use every strategy available to you to beat me.
I think most people have a bit of confirmation bias, so I think most my killer matches are easy (hence 95% estimated ez wins). Other people have sting of losses sting harsher, so even though it might only be 1 out of 10 of their matches they might feel like it is 1/5, 1/4, 1/3, 1/2, or even all of their matches felt like losses. I think the main reason I find Killer generally easy is because I only play weaker Killers when I have the brainpower to spare on thinking about everything. When I want to play just to play I give myself a brainless/autopilot build and go through the motions just to get BP. At one point you say there is no room to grow as a killer due to an eventually loss. The losses are where you learn something new, so it is better to lose. If I took that risky Huntress hatchet at long range or between strange map geometry and landed it, then the shot feels soooooo good. For the matches where I could have camped out a win then I can compartmentalize that thought. "I could win if I did this thing X. So I'm not going to and try something risky to see if I can get greater results." That way you have already won in your mind regardless of the numbers at the end. Refusing to lose is nearly equivalent to refusing to learn. This isn't a game against bots, I shouldn't expect to have a 100% win rate.
I disagree with weaker Killers needing to tunnel, as I can pull off far better results when I provide map pressure. By pressuring 1 person Killers will win matches until they are against better and better people. When they are against better people they have longer chases. When they have longer chases without the skills to shorten chases they will lose more matches from a lack of pressure. People, once skilled enough, know if the Killer is hard tunneling then the chased Survivor needs to use every map resource to extend chase, and the 3 other Survs just need to pump out gens. There is no map pressure from chasing 1 person the entire time unless the Survivors wanted a real match with fun, and throw the match to bodyblock. The ideal method of map pressure is 1 on hook, 1 in chase, 1 attempting the rescue, and 1 on gens. Hard tunneling changes that dynamic to 1C 3G. That will naturally over time lose Killers games by only having 1/3 the pressure. As far as gen defense perks, they are Killer second chance perks. If I were slow in chase and failed to approach from the correct angle or didn't mindgame appropriately, then I need a second chance of longer gen times. The more a Killer focuses on lethality and intel perks, the more they can reach that 1/1/1/1 pressure, and even speed up in reaching a 2/1/1/0 snowballing into an early win. Playing Survivor is the best way to understand what the enemy would do. If I see an aura on the far gen and I know the other 2 are closer, that person will crank out that gen unless I provide some form of pressure. Most times it would be better to let them give you a free 3 gen, but sometimes that is part of your 3 gen, so you know you have to chase them off if you wanted enough lategame pressure. Learning macro is far more important than micro imo. If there is a 3 gen with no pallets and no windows, the Survivors have basically lost regardless of hook states.
As far as the Wesker game I need to recognize it as a loss so I can prevent the lows from happening again. I haven't received any frequent negative commentary in post-game chat typically because I go for the ole' 2 hook tango before going for kills. Even when I kill them all the worst they typically hit me with is not saying "gg", or saying the Killer I chose was "boring". I can take the good and throw out the bad, and only linger on the bad if I can learn from it. My win is me enjoying my time spent. If I didn't enjoy my time then I lost regardless of the stats.
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@RaSavage42 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3216246#Comment_3216246
But you came up with an idea that was already tried... so how are you any better then who they have?
I came up with a solution to the alleged problem preventing the solution they tried if you didn't read my post correctly or I mis-phrased it earlier. Just because one person can't do a backflip doesn't mean backflips are impossible for another.
They came up with Solution X that had Problem Y. I came up with Solution W that solved Problem Y, and even pre-empted Problem Z (that was a possible but improbable consequence of Solution W) with Solution V.
I am not saying I have all the answers, I am saying if I don't have their job and came up with a solution that easily then there are 2 likely scenarios. The first being they couldn't do it from either not trying very hard best case, being incompetent worst case. The second being there were programmatical reasons behind the scenes that they didn't disclose.
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@RavenBirb said:
Since we out here holding survivors hands every patch, how about making killer gameplay less frustrating? You have to mostly sacrifice a perk just so you don't watch survivors vault a window 3-4 times before moving on. That can be said for a lot of spots in the game, it's not as black and white as "don't chase them then" It's a win win scenario either way for survivors because it's either you're wasting time chasing or wasting time chasing them off a gen for them to move spots and do the same crap. Since the killer works with the entity, moving through the vault should block it by default i feel.
If you have bamboozle, it just makes things so much more fun and fair, and some killers literally NEED IT. Or it's going to be bad game for you, every time unless you have new players as survivors
Bamboozle feels like the borrowed time for a lot of killers build
I think this would be better suited in the form of breakable windows on troublesome main buildings. After a player entity-blocks a window tied to a main building, it breaks. They could also have X vaults be tied to the window and it crumbles as vaults are used (with a visual for each stage). This way the busted windows are a map resource just as Pallets are throughout the rest of the map. Also LT walls and normal jungle gym windows are unaffected. To have the window still have value it might need the Killer to vault through it once fully damaged, or break Y seconds after the last vault with a sound cue on vault so both sides are aware it will crumble in a short time.
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@RaSavage42 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3216191#Comment_3216191
I wasn't playing when that happened... or just wasn't aware of it
All's I know is that they tried and failed
That just seems strange that 30s of me thinking and coming up with a solution was not possible for anyone else in that case. Even then they could crowdsource the idea and have an intern cut the wheat from the chaff in terms of good cases and bad, and present that to whatever design team was working on it. They could even use Fog Whisperers to brainstorm the ideas instead of only the forums.
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@RaSavage42 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3213121#Comment_3213121
They tried that and Survivors abused it... so they took it off
And it wasn't Campers that did that either it was BHVR themselves
Can you imagine them bringing it back... Killers wouldn't have any pressure cause it's either suffer with quick saves or Survivors not dying and Gens will all be done with all 4 Survivors T-Bagging at the Exit gates
No thanks
I am curious how they tried that and it was possible for Survs to abuse. If I am hooked with double the "camping" hook timer, and a Survivor is looping around my hook, that means it takes 120s per hook stage. However, that also means a Survivor is looping near hook, which means eventually Bloodlust will kick in or they will otherwise go down, no one else will be in a good position to rescue, and eventually we would be back to square one with 2 people on hooks instead of only 1, and my timer being progressed.
That also means they didn't put forth any extra thought like "pause camping timer when in chase". Or a counter to that potentially being abused like "AND if that chase is the longest chase since that hook." (To prevent chasing off from hook then camping again.)
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3212918#Comment_3212918
Well we've seen how MMR for some reason, on and off, has an inverse effect on the opponents you get. You and streamers who claim to win non-stop never seem to get survivors who just plow through gens. Gen speed is more powerful than looping ability. You can have amazing loopers and still beat them, but that's because they didn't do gens quick. Why, if 1 team can do 5 gens in 5 minutes or less, can your survivors not manage to do 5 gens in 7 or 8 minutes? They're over-emphasizing healing, or walking around, but they ain't doing gens like they could be.
My survivors? They'll push gens while injured, or they'll heal up and still do them fast. They'll bring 1 boon or multiple, obviously featuring CoH. They'll split the map, methodically, almost always pushing the middle gen first, even while they're sitting in my TR. They hold forward, and will scarcely not know how to run shack or a jungle gym for maximum value, and they keep the pallet up. They'll run meta perks, could be 4 collectively, could be 16 collectively. They will push gens while injured and on death hook, with no body blocker, rather than fearing for their life. Any time they get an endgame save, they never screw up and give a hook trade.
I may make a mistake here or there, but I'm running the loops right, I'm playing killers people say can win, I'm running the right perks, and I'm pressuring the gens. Why do I lose off of that so consistently? It's indicative of a game that requires you to play like a perfect bot to even have a chance against equally skilled opponents, even when they're not expected to display perfection.
-Killers people say can win, running the right perks... still losing -
People have a tendency to sweat against sweat. I will play far more loosely as Surv when I don't see DMS+PR/Blight/Nurse/Camping/Tunneling. When I do run against those I either try to cap my BP categories if my team seems clueless, or I hard push an escape (no matter how many) against them. Sweaty players have a tendency to not care about the fun of their opposition, (hence doing the above list of actions/Killers/Perks) so I try to make their experience as legally, karmically, miserable as possible. Sweatlord Killers hate nothing more than a gate escape, and I try to give them as many of those as possible.
At the same time if I see a shaman build (all hexes) on a Clown I might pop a hex for the RNG of it being Haunted Grounds, even when I know they have Retribution too. That is hilarious when you can outplay them, and still injects some extra fun into the game when you can't. I do try to avoid that when I see Obsession claws wriggling on an uninjured Surv though, I'm not a sadist.
Edit: For some reason it formatted as bullet points instead of paragraphs - fixed.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3212780#Comment_3212780
No. It may seem that way in solo. If they're on gens, and you don't see them just walking around or running straight at the killer when you see their auras from hook, they're being efficient.
I'm hearing different from what I'm seeing in-game. I go for hooks, no other strategy, I get no kills. I go for tunneling and 2-hooking, I get a kill or 2. There's none of this pie in the sky scenario where you just go for random chases and get 4ks off just that, because you don't even get 4ks off tunneling and camping unless the survivors just decide they don't want to punish you.
The game is too easy as Killer in ~95% of (my) matches. If I intentionally go for max hooks as Blight, I can do so without bug abuse or massive gen regression, and only bring "feel good" perks. If I want to do that as Bubba, I might need to bring a little more lethality (bamboozle) or 2 gen regression/slowdown perks. If I want to do that as Sadako I need 3 or 4 slowdowns or 3 or 4 lethality perks (hexes usually). I am slowly trying to wean off my dependency on those perks however.
That last ~5% of matches are the matches where I actually get put against either co-ordinated SWFs, or all 4 soloq players that play like they aren't the practice bots (exaggerating). Those are the matches where my skills are actually put to the test as opposed to slowly painting by numbers a foregone conclusion of a "win".
When someone starts to crutch on camping and tunneling they don't build up the muscle in their Killer legs to walk on their own without it. To anyone that claims they can't "win" any match without camping, tunneling, or X perk (setup), I recommend you throw off what is holding you back. Struggle, build back up your muscles, and you will be able to walk, run, and sprint again in no time. Some Killers are so bad that they may require some level of crutch to be playable (Corrupt Intervention on Trapper for example), but most don't.
I can "win" camping and tunneling and in a recent match as Wesker I pulled off a 3k. I couldn't adapt to people greeding the gens at the cost of their fellow Survivor's hook states. My intel perks were tied to unhook (Lethal Pursuer+floods of rage and at least 1 Surv had Distortion), so after hook I had no good direction in where to go. I could barely find people and when I did they would fall quite quickly. Eventually I was able to get all but one of them. MMR says I "won" that match, but I know the truth, I lost.
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@AverageAshEnjoyer said:
People do it because it's efficient. Nothing else to it
Then make it the least efficient method of winning instead of the most and we can have more enjoyable matches.
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The current form DH is in now is less annoying than it was, but I would say that it should be .75s instead of .5s. Too many matches are laggy as fudge, and no one plays against people on LAN. I all too often check the profile of the Killer or Survs and the name or profile is nothing but Chinese characters (google translate helps, and not Japanese, Korean, or European strangely enough, even any of those groups would be closer to me). With matches as laggy as they are, .75s is a fair balance of lag mitigation and legit reactionary timing.
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@SunsetSherbet said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3213032#Comment_3213032
It's amazing to me some people still rationalize to themselves that the person being hurt by this is the killer, and not the 3 other survivors who now instantly lose because a big baby decided they wanted to leave due to getting downed because they can't loop. No, the killer isn't mad you gave him a free 4k. You aren't hurting the killer. You are hurting the 3 survivors who now lose by default.
Anyone who suicides on hook should never EVER complain about solo queue, either. Because the culprit for that being bad can be found in a mirror.
There are numerous problems with soloq, and this is one of them. Just because someone would participate in one negative aspect doesn't mean they cannot dislike other negative things. They just cannot vocalize their displeasure with the same type of thing they participate in without the risk of hypocrisy.
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@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3214280#Comment_3214280
Just FYI Bubba only gains about 2.8 meters total using three charges of his chainsaw in a row versus simply walking without the chainsaw because of the roughly 2 seconds he moves more slowly while revving it up. So using it for map mobility is not gaining you much distance versus just walking normally. (Basically he moves about 4.4 meters first second of revving and 3.45 meters the second second of revving, then moves 5.3 m/s for up to six seconds in the chainsaw sprint using all three charges. When you add that all up it works out to about 39.6 meters versus if he just walked his normal 4.6 m/s for 8 seconds he’d travel 36.8 meters.)
That may not seem like that much on paper, but people would be surprised how much value from pressure that actually adds. You often don't need all 3 charges ready at any given moment, and it often is a better use of your automatically recharging resources to frequently use all 3 charges for mobility. Very frequently I can then reach the Survs quicker, or zone them quicker, and I can use the recharge period to get into position for a chainsaw or setup a Bamboozled window and use only a single charge for the down.
Also those numbers are considering you went in Vanilla Bubba, without add-ons. With some juicy add-ons for speed, duration, or even charge replenish rate, those all can help add up throughout the match. I personally am not a Bubba main, so I haven't done the numbers for which add-on combos have 2 charges being net beneficial, but I still keep those things in mind when playing him.
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@dugman said:
The main reason Learherface is usually rated 3 out of 5 or so is he’s solid in chase but has no map mobility or anything else. It’s similar the issue that Clown has, solid chase but nothing else to speak of. The top killers tend to have good mobility or pressure beyond just having a good chase ability.
-no map mobility- That is both correct and incorrect. When you don't need charges for a down/pallet you can use them for the saw bonus speed. With basekit no add-ons it is more efficient than a standard hold-w if you use all 3 charges timed properly. With good enough add-ons this can be reduced to 2, and the increased effectiveness is based on the specific add-on combo.
Similar thing with Clown. If you use 4 Yellow Bottles and reload you technically gain net distance (if perfectly utilized for the full 20 potential seconds, or juice out an extra second more per bottle from walking in the close edge to the far edge). You gain net distance, and you also are bursting or frontloading your movement. Most Survs like to get off of an action when a Killer is a certain distance, and this gets you to that distance sooner. Even then you can reload bottles when they are cornered and have nowhere to escape to during the slowed 3s of reloading.
A strange thing with Legion is it is never efficient movement wise to use your power for mobility if you will enter fatigue. The speed loss from fatigue is greater than the gain from any add-on combo. There are only 2 good uses for Legion. The first being the TR pressure mentioned with Clown above, but that is only good if you are heading to an injured Surv. If you are going to someone healthy you are losing time by not getting an easier power hit. The second use is to pickup a slugged Surv while in power. This skips the fatigue so it is only free distance gained.
Most people don't like to look at the numbers and crank out every bit of efficiency of these Killers since they can just turn off their brain and get better results with Artist/Blight/Nurse/Spirit. When you see someone actually use these tools on Bubba and Clown, then you know they aren't there for their daily/tome. You need to bring your A-game because they will know more in that matchup than you do. There is far greater skill expression in the lower tier Killers since you need to actually learn even facet of their use, and aren't carried by easy or overbearing mechanics.
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Due to the phrasing this is obvious bait, but I'll bite for the purpose of people reading that are ignorant.
Camping/Tunneling is low skill high reward. The normal gameplay takes far more skill than camping and tunneling require for their rewards. The phrasing for the skilled aspect, is what to punish. Tapping a gen off of hook and then as Killer punishing greed is far more skill than blindly tunneling. Similarly going after someone who BT bodyblocked to punish their lack of anti-tunnel is also far more skill than blindly tunneling. There is a pinch of skill in hitting people off of hook if they aren't crying in pain after your previous chase in which you injured them. That is just abusing the bad mechanic that is anti-tunnel endurance causing deep wound. That scenario is also merely having enough skill to have functioning ears, which is more like gating gameplay behind not being deaf. (Personally I would give all sounds a subtitle tooltip in the top left corner of the screen, with the subtitle size based on how loud it is.) There is no outplaying your opposition's tactics or chase skill, just cheesing them out of their anti-tunnel.
For Camping there is such tiny skill in sitting in front of the Survivor. Even if there is a nearby gen, the reward for pushing people off is vastly disproportionate to the effort put into that. The skill expression for camping is punishing a Reassurance usage. The game has too much latency to reliably win the grab game unless people fall into obvious patterns. Even then your grab can be server denied when you won the grab game. The problem is a properly kitted out facecamper can guarantee 2 minimum kills, and more often 3/4 depending on whether you slug for the 4k or not. The skilled camping equivalent is punishing a 45-59s hook save, against people who gen b4 fren.
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The "Laugh" option over the "don't care" option only because I do care. They gave me free pressure by slowing their chase instead of gaining distance. That was dumb of them to gift that to me. It might not actually make me laugh, and it could make me furrow my brow in confusion instead, and then get the quicker down. Then maybe I'd think "thanks for the free pressure" and continue my macro strategy. I might even extend the chase a little, making a couple of simple misplays on purpose to bait out more pallets for them to burn to tbag on the other side of. They just screwed over their teammates' and their own future thinking I'm the one losing. That is so great.
Exit gates I just alt-tab until the match is over if there is no reason for me to play. If I am Twins with Victor against healthy or Deathslinger against injured, or have lategame perks like NOED/BW then maybe I'd try a play. Otherwise I'll just wait out the timer and let them get random bones or Glyphs or whatever tome they might need to help cap their BP. I would do the same myself cleaning up the map of breakable walls or pallets that I didn't have a chance or need to kick if I knew there were some remaining.
Edit: I do punish BM with BM if the Survivor is intentionally BMing another Survivor. If I see Mikaela bodyblock the Felix and block his vault on purpose, then after I hook Felix I seek out the Mikaela and play as legally scummy as I can. Facecamping, hard tunneling off of hook, whatever that would annoy the sandbagging Surv legally I do. I play soloq more than I play with friends when playing Surv, and stupid/malicious teammates are my most hated thing in this game. Now to be fair very rarely do I come across full blown stupidity that looks like intentional sandbagging, but I have no doubt I have unintentionally punished a clueless Survivor as well as the clearly guilty. I usually give people multiple chances in case it was a legit accident the 1st time.
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I think Killers refusing to adapt will tank the stats, but most people will have largely the same results as live. Sabo games with a dedicated SWF will win a lot more since they don't have MMR to go against Killers who will use their brains to counter them, but if it were on live instead I think the win rates would also largely unaffected.
The sabo SWFs won't be getting anymore wins over their current live rates since they already dedicate Boon: Exponential and Unbreakable in their builds. This might actually slightly nerf them since when stacked they have ~13s on live, and ~15s on PTB to get up.
Once someone is already dead, this will help snowball Killers quickly end games, so if Onis/Plagues/Nurses/Blights/Myers play around that strategy they might actually get more wins/kills overall from denying an RNG kobe or Deliverance, and denying Hatch through a follow up triple down into kill.
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@ASurvkillivorer said:
I don't think they have?
Ever since the increase to a possible 40k a match I almost never see this happen even from killers. The amounts things do in matches should increase.
Chase should be 250 instead of 200. Safe unhook 600 etc.
Now that I think of it. Is it even possible to get a max sacrifice? How does that work?
It also never made sense to me when great skillchecks got buffed to 150. Then onto 300 yet they left the ones for healing at 150. Shouldn't they all be 300 especially now?
Sacrifice is in a weird limbo since you basically need all 8 hooks after all the gens pop then Mori all 4 to cap. Everything else is easy enough to cap in normal gameplay for both roles other than Survival. So with both roles having 1 gimmick category they are more or less equal barring excessive camping and tunneling.
Overall though I would say Killer is far easier to get meaningful BP since you aren't reliant on anyone other than yourself, and no cheaters. Killer just can 2 hook each, slug 1 person at a time to cap your lowest of Devious/Brutality/Hunter, and kill them once capped. That keeps people willing to still play and not DC, with enough pressure to give you the time needed to cap. Survivors need to get a decent number of heals, hook rescues, co-op on gens, get 30s recovery on the floor before each hook, and get 14.99s hooks hitting all great checks with the beta skill checks en route. If a Survivor fights a Plague or exposed/instadown Killer then good luck getting any meaningful altruism points, which already tanks you ~5k-7k max removed, only getting unhook points. That reliability for Killer more than makes up for the near impossibility to cap Sacrifice.
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@kizuati said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3208130#Comment_3208130
Plague - No,it wouldnt. It's a slight nerf,I dont seek to do that.
Mastermind - I dont like an auto win mechanic eventually in chase,I think that's bad design. If Wesker is getting ######### on for a while he shouldnt get an 8% hindered.
Oni - This comes out from a place of "I would like Killers to be actually able to use their power"
Blight - Yes,you will start recharging post basic attack cooldown. This makes it impossible to instantly follow up an M1 wiith an M2.
Deathslinger - In my opinion mending is way too boring. If we want Caleb to be better in his 1v4 there should be a movement ability for him.
Overwhelming Presence - Yeah.
Dissolution - There's a reason I took off the TR and put it up to 38m. I was frustrated several times by hitting a survivor and them vaulting a palelt only to find out "oh i have undetectable and it doesn't break the pallet,#########". This happens often on Dredge for example.
Opression - Confused on what you're asking here? Yes,you won't be able to kick a regressing generator for the next 60 seconds after the kick.
Grim Embrace - Cool idea,but would need a longer timer imho.
DMS - Holy,that's actually a really neat idea. I love it.
NOED - Personally I think a lot of newer killers use it as a crutch as the 4% haste helps them get Bloodlust 1 in chase and win more games,thus making them reliant on it. Hence me wanting to remove it. If people want to see NOED before it's revealed,run Deja Vu :)
Starstruck - Again,Nurse is nerfed and cant use exposed anymore. I think it's okay to buff this one.
Mad Grit - Respectfully,no.
Lullaby - Penalties for missing skillchecks are active on loading,with the speed up of the skilllchecks and their notifactions happening with the stacks.
Thana - Yes but at that point they're cooping gens either inefficiently or with the nerfed Prove.
Mastermind - The auto win eventually mechanic is endemic to the game. It is how the game is balanced around the 1v4. Survivors are designed to eventually go down to the Killer. Also it takes 100s from an initial injury infection to get fully infected, and 37.5s for an infected tunnel slap into BT to get fully infected. The tunnel version can be addressed without hampering the 3 gens timer the basekit version would theoretically take.
Oni - Oni can use his power when he gets an injury. It seems strange to me that you think Wesker should get no infection value when he hits someone, but Oni should get a free-er power for losing. His power is exceedingly strong and if you as a Killer are letting people drop every pallet it sounds like you failed somewhere along the way. You can run Lethal Pursuer to go after someone early afk or in a bad part of the map, or Monitor and Abuse to give them less reaction time, or any other perk to help you if you recognize a weakness in your personal playstyle.
Deathslinger - Mending is boring, but you can juice value out of it regardless. If they chase you there is no reason to mend, if they leave you then let it drain as much as you are comfortable with before mending. Plus I personally like the memey lore aspect of tearing the people's guts out so the mend takes longer to stuff their intestines back in.
Dissolution - Understandable for Dredge, but I am still confused by 38m as opposed to the more normalized 24/28/32 numbers.
Grim Embrace - 40s is still really good time, and that is doubled to 80s with 2 procs. That basically gives 10s per hook, which is similar in line with Scourge Pain Res 13.5 requiring a Scourge Hook, and Pop at the middle value of 9s of a 50% gen (not counting the basekit kick and travel time there). It also has the unique aspect of blocking ALL gens as opposed to regressing a single one, making it effectively 160 gen seconds when adjusted for all 4 Survivors.
Starstruck - Even without the abuse case of Nurse maybe keep the 30s downtime at the very least (40s duration 70s cooldown, giving 30s downtime).
Mad Grit - That is a lot of potential small things to just blanket say no to all of them.
Thana - I suppose, I just would never see myself running it since more people are getting value from Great Skill checks which would be unaffected. A 5% flat penalty in normal cases, and 0% in a good number more doesn't seem the greatest to me. Plus often times people like to use toolboxes early. That usually means they get the value before you have a chance to injure 2 people and restrict it.
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@Bran said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3207979#Comment_3207979
Plague was able to stall since she ran a survivor away and saw the Feng run over. Plague got to hook fist and Feng didn't want to risk the down or hook trade despite 2 gens left and she hadn't been hooked and was injured. It was a logical choice, not abuse.
As for Rebecca. A gen popped behind me, but when I ran over I didn't see anyone and Rebecca was u hooked behind me. The hook was close to a corner and she had ran into the open. An easy down.
Survivors can loop all they want, but being able to loop for so long and be able to go to other loops all at once is pretty lame.
Plague prevented a hook rescue and didn't chase the Feng, that is abuse of bad mechanics.
Rebecca still was the first to be downed after being hooked. That has some fault in her teammates for potentially hiding, some fault in her for her pathing, and some fault in you for not seeking her rescuer. The fact you said she DC-ed on her third down without you saying you downed anyone else makes it seem far more malicious from her perspective than you are making it out to be, but at the same time some people DC at the drop of a hat.
This current entity window block mechanic forces Survivors to go to other loops instead of stay at one loop. I'm confused how you think a Survivor staying in one area to loop is lame, but a Killer camping and/or staying near hook in one area is not. Both are the same core problem, and one is basekit addressed while the other is not.
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@kizuati said:
Hello this is styled this as a developer update for funsies - if you haven't seen Part 1 - click here.
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We're back with a scheduled continuation of our unscheduled developer update,focusing on many upcoming changes coming to Dead By Daylight soon in the 6.9.0 PTB. In this edition,we'll cover technical updates to the game,perk updates,spawn logic changes & more Killer changes.
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Generator Speeds:
A lot of KIller players have been in this situation. You start the chase with a survivor,down them rather quickly,get to a generator that's about to get done and stop it at the last second..only for 2 more generators to activate in the distance. Sucks,right? Well we're going to address this,but not the way you think.
Going forward we're going to be retiring the Shroud offerings. This is due to us updating the Survivor spawn logic to either spawn in pairs of 2 or all together. This will naturally force survivors either to inefficiently stack up or to spend time spreading out instead of lucking out with their spawn. Believe it or not,this will massively skew the game's start towards the Killer's favor and allow them to pretty effectively apply pressure.
Additionally,some problematic items and addons in regards to generator speeds will be addressed in this mid-chapter as well.
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Items: Buffs,Nerfs,Reworks
It's been a hot minute since we did a major change to the item roster in Dead By Daylight and we think it's just the time to do that.
Medkits:
- Camping Aid Kit - 16 charges,bonus speed for healing others is 33%,self-healing speed reduced to 75%.
- First Aid Kit - 16 charges,bonus speed for healing others is 33%,self-healing speed reduced to 85%.
- Emergency Medkit - 16 charges,cannot be used for healing others,self-healing speed reduced to 105%.
- Ranger Medkit - 32 charges,can only be used for altruistic healing,bonus speed for healing others is 45%.
Dev Note: Medkits' time efficiency has been significantly over-performing for a while and required a substantial nerf. We hope these changes will now bring them back in line.
Toolboxes:
- Worn Out Tools - No Changes.
- Toolbox - Charges increased to 24.
- Mechanic's Toolbox - Retired.
- Commodious Toolbox - Decreased repair speed bonus to 40%,added a 15% sabotage speed bonus.
- Engineer's Toolbox - Charges increased to 18,removed sabotage speed penalty. Increased great skill check zone by 5% relative to it's current size.
- Alex's Toolbox - Removed the ability to be used on generators.
Keys:
- Broken Key - Increased time of use to 30s.
- Dull Key - Increased time of use to 15s.
- Skeleton Key - Decreased time of use to 25s.
Maps
Maps are being retired this mid-chapter. In the coming mid-chapter we seek to rework maps and keys into one uniform item instead.
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Survivor Perk Changes
Meta Perk Updates:
- Prove Thyself - No longer provides the repair bonus to your teammates. For the same result as pre 6.9.0 PT speeds,all survivors repairing a generator will have to sacrifice a perk slot. Now grants Objective points that do not count towards the objective cap.
- Dead Hard - No longer uses the Endurance status effect. The perk can now be used in Deep Wounds,but if you're not in deep wounds,the perk will put you in them upon tanking a hit. This change mainly seeks to make DH work while you're being tunneled.
- Boon: Circle Of Healing - Removed the Self-Healing ability. Upped the healing bonus back to 75%.
- Iron Will - Removed the exhaustion aspect of the perk. Additionally we have now returned to additive calculations of survivor grunts,which means with No Mither and Iron Will you can be completely silent once more!
- Reassurance - Now works once per hook state,instead of instance.
- Hyperfocus - The perk's synergies have been reduced. Now when attempting to use it with Stake Out and toolboxes at the same time,the perk will simply not trigger Stake Out's effects. Using it alone with Toolboxes or with Stake Out will still work. This limits it's power,but still allows for synergies with either Stake Out or Toolboxes,but not both.
- Self-Care - Allows you to heal yourself with a medkit at a set 100% speed with a 50% efficiency bonus.
Non-Meta Perk Updates:
- Buckle Up - Once a survivor has been slugged for 16 seconds,all survivors can see each other's auras until the survivor is picked up by the killer or survivor. Boost recovery speeds by 33% in a 18m radius of you.
- Dance With Me - Allows you to get a fast vault regardless of your angular momentum.
- Calm Spirit - Removed the speed penalty.
- Decisive Strike - Stuns the killer for 3,5 seconds,disabling their power for 6 seconds. Activates on both hooks. This change limits it power on weaker killers,but stops the high mobility ones from instantly catching the survivor they're trying to tunnel with their power. As the perk is deactivated in the end game,there is no one affected by it but tunneling Killers.
- Head On - Reduced the exhaustion timer to 35s.
- Kinship - Added visual indicator on the survivor portrait,that's only visible to other survivors.
- Bite The Bullet - Hides the auras of the healer and the healed person while the perk is active. Now also applies in reverse,whenever you're being healed.
- Visionary - You see generator auras within 48 meters. The 3 generators closest to each other are highlighted in a white aura.
- Deja Vu - You remember the mistakes that are about to happen. Whenever you're afflicted with the exposed status effect,see it before it's revealed to others and once per trial,ignore the exposed status effect.
- Solidarity - Boosted conversion rate to 66%,added visual indicator.
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Killer Perk Updates:
Meta Perk Changes:
- Call Of Brine - Reduced regression rate to 175%. Removed the informational aspect of the perk.
- Dead Lock - Reduced time for which a generator is blocked to 25s.
- Hex: Pentimento - Reduced generator speed penalty to 15%.
- Jolt - Now works with special attacks. Based on a 32M radius around the survivor going down.
- Overcharge - Removed the difficult skill check. Now speeds up generator skill checks by 15% and removes the great skill check. Overcharge's secondary effect (beyond the regression) can only apply to one generator at a time.
- Eruption - Reduced the incapacitated status effect to 10 seconds. Reduced the cooldown to 23 seconds.
- Hex: No One Escapes Death - Removed the haste bonus.
- Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance - Once more no longer makes the survivors scream.
- Dead Man's Switch - Upped to 50 seconds.
Non Meta Perk Changes:
- Iron Grasp - Allows you to lunge while carrying for 50% the distance.
- Fire Up - Increased the bonus to 5%. Now applies to hooking,stomping boons and opening lockers.
- Brutal Strength - Now affects stomping out boons.
- Agitation - Increases pick up speed by 10%.
- Mad Grit - Allows you to drop a survivor once without a wiggle progress penalty.
- Grim Embrace - Reduced unique hook requirement to 3. Upped the generator block time to 45 seconds. Upon activation all generators lose 5% of their progress before blocking.
- Hex: Huntress Lullaby - Now caps at 3 stacks. At 3 stacks survivors suffer from 35% faster skillchecks with reduced warning time.
- Hex: Coup De Grace (Formerly Coup De Grace) - Permanently increases your lunge speed by 50% as long as the Hex totem is standing. Revealed to the survivors once you injure a survivor with a lunge attack.
- Overwhelming Presence - Instead of being based on the TR,the perk works in a flat 32M radius of you,unless you're undetectable. Additionally,survivors passively lose charges around you at 25% of the normal rate.
- Oppression - Now also allows you to kick a regressing generator. Cooldown reduced to 40 seconds.
- Dragon's Grip - Has a cooldown of 15 seconds upon downing the exposed survivor. If the survivor isnt downed,suffer no cooldown.
- Lightborn - No longer stops flashlight beams from thinning,tricking survivors into thinking you're getting blinded.
- Nemesis - Your obsession is permanently afflicted with the Oblivious status effect.
- Dissolution - Works on a flat 38m radius instead of the TR.
- Predator - Scratchmarks stay lit for longer. Also stops the perk Lightweight from masking the survivor's scratchmarks.
- Starstruck - Increased exposed duration to 40 seconds.
- Thanatophobia - Now caps repair,cleansing and healing speeds at 95% of the normal speed when there are two or more survivors injured.
- Unnerving Presence - Causes skillchecks to appear on more interactions like Sabotaging,Mending and Opening Exit Gates.
- Beast Of Prey - After 15s in chase,you no longer have a red stain. This effect lingers for 5 seconds after losing chase.
Killer Updates - Part 2
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The Deathslinger
- Increased movement speed to 112,5%.
- Reduced mending time to 5 seconds.
Dev Note: Caleb has received a substantial but deserved nerf in the 5.3.0 patch and we think it's about time we give him some more love. He's the first Killer in-between the 110 %and 115% speeds and we're excited what people think of his current balance.
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The Blight
- Reduced movement speed to 110%.
- Now suffers a 2 charge penalty after hitting a basic attack.
Dev Note: The Blight's extremely strong catch up power (especially with the reduced injury speedboost) has proven a bit too oppressive. We aim to make him weaker as a regular Killer,leaning into his power more.
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The Plague
- Slightly reduced movement speed while using the Vile and Corrupt Purges.
- Significantly skewed the baseline corrupted fountain to spawn towards the middle of the map.
Dev Note: We found Plague to be a little bit too forgiving while using her purges in terms of distance. However we wanted to stabilize her RNG by focusing her one fountain in the middle of the map.
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The Mastermind
- Lowered the Hindered status effect on full infection to 2%.
- Removed infection progression in chase.
- Slowed infection progression by 15%.
Dev Note: We felt it was too easy to tunnel survivors out when they were already infected - it progressed fast and the hindered felt very strong. It was deemed unhealthy to have such a strong hindered effect - the insta-down from his power is enough deterance on it's own and we also slowed down the infection rates,stopping it entirely in chase. We don't want the infection to overshadow his entire power.
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The Pig
- Increased Crouched Speed to 107%.
- Decreased the time to go into Ambush by 15%.
- Halved the Jigsaw Box search time.
Dev Note: The Pig has started overperforming with the 6.1.0 patch and we decided to nerf her overperforming aspect,while buffing her in-chase abilities.
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The Oni
- Slightly increased blood orb drop rates.
- At the start of the match before getting in a single injured state,The Oni benefits from a 15% increased pallet kick speed. This is signified by a slight roar as he kicks the pallets during the early game.
Dev Note: The Oni is a great and fun Killer,although some survivors developed a strategy of pre-dropping every pallet at the start of the match,effectively never giving Kazan his power. We decided this was a little bit too unfun.
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PERFORMANCE UPDATES:
We'll be honest. Dead By Daylight is not running as smooth as we'd like it to. It's been pretty difficult to try and work with our existing code and we know a lot of you have been suffering from performance issues so we have multiple things upcoming for you all.
First: We're incorporating AMD'S FSR 2.0 into the game. This allows us to render at a lower resolution and bring it back up to your native one. This will be now automatically enabled with the auto-adjust feature on the resolution slider. (You'll now be able to even scale beyond your native resolution for better antialiasing just ticking the box asking you whether or not you want to push resolutions higher when your desired framerate is reached without your GPU dying)
Second: We'll be unlocking the framerate on PC by default. We want to push for 120 FPS to become the norm of smoothness on computers and we're hoping FSR 2.0 will help us to achieve that along with other changes under the hood.
Third: We're starting a large re-factor of the game's underlying systems that requires your support. We're going to be releasing a cosmetic bundle for a higher price than usual soon as a DLC. The profits from that DLC will go DIRECTLY to this. It's a lot of work,but we're slowly moving more and more game logic from the client to our dedicated servers. There are many benefits - less hackers,less lag,less performance taxes on your system!
Fourth: We're adding a lower graphics setting option for older generation console players. With us optimizing our code,some players might want to push the framerates even further with lower graphics settings. We're not taking that option away from you. In fact,we'll soon be overhauling our graphical options menu to include more detailed settings and newer AA methods.
With that... I hope you enjoyed this alternate reality train into a world where BHVR actually cranks their work up to 11 and we all enjoy the best version of DBD we could hope for. Feedback is welcome in the comments. Part One of our imaginary dev update trip can be found here: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/348404/my-dream-patch-to-try-and-fix-dead-by-daylight-part-1
Spawn logic- seems fine, I would keep the offerings just trade solo and all grouped between Surv and Killer.
Medkits - I'm not sure I quite like the numbers here, and I also really dislike the Purple not even allowing self-heals anymore. I think a fixed medkit rate would be much better (66%) with doubling all altruistic values. That way using medkit charges would be more time efficient on ally healing than self healing.
Toolboxes - The purple changes seem strange to me. Why entirely remove gens from the sabo box but not entirely remove sabos from the gen box? Even then the current sabo box is basically only a skillcheck box for gens, that is good enough I'd say. I don't like making the best gen box more efficient on gens though. Also with your Hyperfocus change you can burn out all the charges and that makes the gen considered non-toolboxed, so then you can use Stakeout when there are no charges remaining. You can get a couple quick Greats then have the Stakeout bonuses be all the juicier. Personally I would just disallow Hyperfocus with Toolboxes entirely.
Keys+Maps - Are the add-ons going to be combined? I think that is too much value personally. I like the idea of Keys for player auras, and Maps for prop auras. I would also make keys have 24m Surv on charges basekit, with the add-on being changed.
Surv perks - PT is fine as is. In reality it is usually a Killer perk as it makes Survivors think grouping up isn't a bad idea.
DH shouldn't be the one to get this effect. Instead I would remove deep wound from BT/OTR and other anti-tunnel endurance effects. This way you could be double tunneled and still have DH or a Styptic in your pocket.
CoH would need some form of intel to tell people you need to be healed in the boon's aura. I'd have 4/3/2s of standing still in the boon show your aura to fellow survs, maybe also with a loud noise the first time per injury.
Self-Care is that in addition to the current 35%, or replacing? In addition would be good.
Dance With Me's effect could also be put on Boon: Dark Theory, but I would add an extra sound cue for when Dark Theory vaults are made so the Killer knows.
DS I would also set the ammo/charges to 0 and prevent recovery until the timer runs out. This would help against the more problem Killers like Artist/Blight/Nurse.
Bite the Bullet I agree with the 2nd part, but I personally don't like the anti-A Nurse's Calling. Not enough people have a relevant aura perk for that anyways.
One final suggestion I would have is for Repressed Alliance. I would make it place a 30s block or remove 30s from any entity block, that way you can counter Deadlock/DMS/halve No Way Out.
Killer perks - Call of Brine and Dead Lock are fine as is, they don't need to be nerfed. CoB can be countered by Great checks, and Dead Lock is only bad when used by camping, so address camping not this.
Pentimento is a bit of a soloq stomper, but I'd say to keep 30% at 2 stacks or more, or 10% per first 3. That way the gen speeds more gradually ramp up and you don't get as tortured from the random cleansing the Plaything you purposely left standing.
NOED is fine with the speed, and it actually serves Survivors more before it is revealed if they feel the Killer running all the faster.
DMS could be really good or bad with 50s, and I would offer a hybrid version to go back to its Obsession roots. Obsession gives 50s, and non-Obs gives 20-30s (tbd).
IG/FU/BS/Agi/LB/Nem/UP/BoP good, but for Mad Grit I'd make dropping always take half as long and reset recovery (or even wiggle regress also) on that first drop (to be the go to counter for sabo).
Not a fan of Grim Embrace, I'd allow it to proc twice instead as long as everyone is alive, (to encourage 8 hooks before killing) and reveal all Survs when you do that 4 hook proc on the Obsession instead.
Huntress Lullaby I think should be a Hex only if it starts charged, or spawn the hex on first hook if it doesn't. If it starts charged then noobs can cleanse it early and get rid of it, and more experienced players can do what they like.
Coup de Grace very cool change and I like it.
Overwhelming Presence I think the draining is a bit too fast, and I personally prefer it being TR based.
Oppression as long as the kick on a regressing gen is tied to the CD then that is fine, but it could be cheesed for a 3 gen if it isn't tied to the CD by repeatedly kicking your 3 gens down to 0 for the 2.5/5% basekit kick regression.
Dragon's Grip might need to be toned down a little, but reduced CD in general is good.
Dissolution would be good and bad, and I'm confused by the range of 38m. Is that supposed to be 28m like A Nurse's Calling? I don't like that being revealed to someone not in chase for undetectable Killers though. Maybe only reveal the perk if the Surv is in chase also.
Starstruck is good enough as is imo, no need for changes, especially since the CD effectively is only 30s once it runs out.
Thana would now do nothing to co-op gens, since co-op gens already reduces the efficiency (1.0/.85/.7/.55). I'd swap it to 2/4/6/8% for 2/6/12/20% total penalty.
Killers - With Deathslinger, I don't like the Mending nerf. That is the closest thing he has to 1v4 in having a 12s mend instead of the normal 8s. The movement speed might be better like other people's suggestion of 4.4 loaded 4.6 unloaded.
Blight has good changes. Question though, would the charge penalty wait to recover until after hit recovery? If it doesn't then Adrenaline Vial would be ready immediately after swing, and normal power usage would only need 1.3s of waiting otherwise.
Plague would revert the last QoL patch? The fixed RNG seems fine, but idk about reverting the QoL buff. I do think something needs to be done about her facecamping prowess though, and these changes don't affect that.
Mastermind I would say no across the board largely. The only thing is Infection progress in chase should be tied to being unhooked and not using a Spray yet. That way tunneling off of hook can't progress it, but if they had time to use a Spray then they are fair game again. That could also set infection at 1% instead of 50% on being unhooked if above that number.
Pig I think the crouch buffs are decent, but she is extremely quiet for a basekit stealth Killer. I think that is why they don't let her have decent speed in stealth. The boxes are more based on the maps, so if map sizes are being fixed I don't think you also need to also adjust the box times.
Oni god please no. Oni is one of my most hated Killers because of you being punished for other people's failures. When he had the bugged blood rates that was so oppressive and a nightmare to face. Also it is good to have counterplay for Killers, and if you kick every pallet early then Survivors have nothing to save them later in the game. Again maps are the problem, and if you have to kick the 30 pallets of The Game or Garden of Joy, that means TG/GoJ needs to be adjusted, not Oni.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3207993#Comment_3207993
Let's just make one tiny adjustment to Eruption : when a survivor goes down the gen starts regressing and can't be interacted with for 20 seconds even if nobody was touching it.
Please don't needlessly buff Eruption any further. Even if on SWF you would have to let go multiple times per chase, risking the random skillcheck tanking another 10%. The current version is already 9+25/surv gen seconds being blocked, that is enough. There really isn't proper counter play when you can apply it to unlimited number of gens, making 3 gens just all too cheesy.
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@Morehackersthangta said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3207428#Comment_3207428
By your logic, gen repairs and healing others should only be possible by 1 survivor at a time. Reward interaction with the whole map.
Actually as I said I like rewarding riskier plays. The riskier play for Survivors is grouping up. I would reverse gen efficiency (except on solo gens). That way it would less efficient solo, same efficiency duo (as current solo per person), and more efficient trio/quad. When the Killer is able to disrupt a gen, they now get rewarded with disrupting multiple people off of gens, and the Survivors get normal/more gen speed. High risk high reward. Since 2 people is the minimum for the current efficiency this would naturally slow gen speeds also.
Similarly I would decrease solo medkit speeds (to 66%) and increase altruistic medkit speeds (doubling all altruistic bonuses on medkits, or providing an equal altruistic boost as the universal boost) such that using a medkit on an ally is more time efficient than using it on yourself (travel time not included). I would also have an additional bonus for co-op healing, giving a 33% multiplicitive boost so a duo basekit heal takes 6s from the current 8s. Again, if the Killer can disrupt the heal then they disrupt 3 people, providing massive value. With my changes the basic brown medkit would take 24s solo, 10.66s altruistic (or 21.32 Surv seconds when accounting for the 2 people).
@Bran said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3207428#Comment_3207428
Problem with all of that. It happens, but in a smart way.
My last game, Plague had me second hooked. Had her blood vomit.
Knew survivors were nearby or would come back. Feng came back didn't hook trade even though she hasn't been hooked. I died on hook. Sure, plague camped, but it was completely fair as she had all the reason. Skilled enough to know she could run my timer.
Another game, my own. Was able 2 early hooks on a Rebecca. First time regular down. Second time a punished the unhook, not particularly bad, but I wasn't in chase and was close by. She was in the open. Woulda gotten the third hook, but I wasnt enough when I saw Zarina's scratch marks, still tried missed the saw though (Cannibal). Most woulda called that tunnelling. Well, it was fair. Rebecca dc'd when i caught her again. Wasn't even going for her. Yoichi ran me to them. Hooked him she was close by. Ran right past a Yui to her since she was still injured.
Point is, can't look at the bad. Abusable isn't the word I'd use. Sometimes killers are out in the situation where whatever their doing works. Doesn't mean there abusing anything. Another game Legion slugged someone and went for another chase. Maybe it was because she was in the Lampkin house or he has seen the survivor so he left the slug to chase.
Survivors can't infinite loop for good reason. Being able to stall for that chase is lame. They don't even need they 3 jumps as they can just go to the next loop guilt free already.
The Plague game is a perfect example of bad design. She knew she could get away with camping (or facecamping, I don't know the degree for you) rather than chasing the first Survivor in the area, or even toggling. Since you didn't say she got anyone else that leads me to believe she cheesed your timer for the kill rather than used skill to down the other Survivors allegedly swarming hook. She was rewarded for being bad enough to not get a follow up down, not good for getting 1 or 2 more. Similarly Bubba knows he can get away with facecamping out entire hook states. Preventing unhooks for the entire duration of a stage shouldn't be the default or the go to strategy. A surgical 15s punish for a late rescue, sure. But not waiting out the full 60s.
In the Rebecca Bubba example I don't know the timeframe, but the 2nd hook on her sounds like the fruits of camping, and the 3rd hook (if the DC didn't prevent it) was a bad teammate. The third was fair, but how were you close enough to not find someone and returned to hook just in time to chase the Rebecca? That in the vast majority of circumstances isn't "punishing the unhook" that is camping then tunneling the Rebecca. You could fairly punish the unhook if that weren't the case by getting an easy down on the rescuer.
I am confused how you think Survivors "stall(ing) for that chase is lame", but you don't think the same of the abusive scenarios of tunneling or camping. It most certainly is lame being camped out an entire hook state (or 2). It most certainly is lame being immediately chased once rescued off of hook. Both vaulting to evade the killer in chase and camping/tunneling are players accomplishing their goals, that is Survivors surviving and Killers killing, but there should be better checks in place to prevent those worst case scenarios like window blocks/camping/tunneling.
@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3207428#Comment_3207428
fully agreed on everything but 60%. That is unfair. 50% is what they should strife for. Same way as their MMR balancing is made for 50% (1 win and 0 loose is 0 MMR).
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3207522#Comment_3207522
So survivor abusing vaults is bad but killer abusing tunnel is not? Let me give you same example - you can outplay survivor at shack. It's hard, but it is doable + it can pose high risk from basement. So it's not abuse to use shack, because it's legitimate play that should get high reward for low effort (no need to change tiles). Or looking at it from different perspective - this is problem and killer being able to easily snowball the game from 3v1 (and unsafe unhook is mistake that survivors can make, but killer can force it by camping™ and then tunneling to finish the deed - where survivors don't have a way how to prevent this) is also problem that should be addressed. Pick one, but be consistent.
For proper MMR, 50/50 is what you are supposed to go for, with each side being lumped together (aka team MMR), but this 60% is probably meant to account for noob Survivors padding those kill counts. Also for Killers being able to facecamp a 1k minimum if done correctly, padding the kill count despite being a net loss. If the game used team based MMR, averaging the Survivors then adjusting their individual MMR after the win/draw/loss came in (based on the total kills, not individualized), then I think it would work much better. I think the main reason we have this flawed MMR is because part of the advertising is something to the effect of "Survive together or don't". So to accommodate a solo victory or selfish gameplay they have to not actually commit to calling the Survivors a team in the MMR, even though they need to in order for it to work properly.
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@Bran said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3206748#Comment_3206748
Camping, tunnelling, early kills. All things that are not consistent in play or by definition.
If the game goes into the direction of not letting killers be able to have flexibility in how they play in order to win or have fun then what's the reason to play killer if a lot of what makes killer killer is countered, basekit changed, or hard nerfed.
Now I surely can't really explain it good enoguh, but changes to eliminate vague things such as camping and tunneling would only make the game worse. I.e basekit unbreakable and the Mori mechanic.
Camping, or sitting near the hook merely to wait for action to occur, is too rewarded for the effort put in. Similarly hard tunneling off of hook, or chasing the survivor who was just rescued, ignoring others even when they try to bodyblock, is also too rewarded for the effort put in. I would prefer those to be high risk high reward strategies, rather than some of the more optimal with a low to medium risk (perk dependent) high reward. I don't have a problem when the reward matches the risk, but they are grossly disproportionate at the moment. I also don't have a problem when those people take a risk by tapping a gen or a totem after unhook, telling the Killer they are fair game once again. Personally I wouldn't consider healing yourself to be a conspicuous action until the heal is completed. Killers have plenty of flexibility in how to down survivors, and restricting the worst case scenarios, or rebalancing the risk reward structure, wouldn't be negative at all.
I personally consider an early 1st kill when the Survivor dies as a result of 5 hook actions or fewer, and an early 2nd kill at 6 hook actions or fewer. While there also can be fair early kills, like the above example of tapping a gen immediately after unhook, most of them are unfair. When an early kill is completed it typically snowballs the game into a Killer victory. When the Killer uses those low risk high reward strategies they didn't win in a skilled manner. (See facecamping Bubba perked out for it.) When skill is the primary vector from which Killers get kills, then BHVR can adjust Killers further to reach their desired 60% kill rate. Basically, cheesy methods to artificially inflate kill counts are keeping Killers from getting the buffs they deserve. If those abuse cases were removed, then the bad Killers who rely on that will have more accurate kill counts. Once the numbers are recalculated, then BHVR can look into another 6.1.0 styled patch that would further help Killers.
Curtailing abuse cases already happens with the mechanics. When a Survivor is in chase they can only vault a window 3 times. This is to prevent the abuse case of a god-tier loop. Similarly, if we get camp/tunnel/early kill curtailing mechanics then it will result in a net positive in the long run. If you want to say Killers should have the flexibility in how they play with these type of abusive mechanics, then I would expect you to stay consistent in that opinion and allow Survivors infinite window vaults in chase. That way all players can have flexibility in how the play to win. Survivors prevented from abusing windows can only vault three times, just as an anti-tunnel mechanic might be something like Spirit styled invisibility+collision loss for 10s after the unhook (ended short on conspicuous actions). That way if the Killer wants to tunnel they have to actually seek out the Survivor again, and aren't just gifted the rescued Survivor on a silver platter.
Overall my message is I want the reward to be proportionate to the risk. I also want weaker Killers to be buffed to compete better against the best Survivors or even closer to their fellow Killers, and people padding the stats with low risk high reward strategies are preventing that from happening. Feel free to let people camp and tunnel, just have it be sub-optimal and poorly rewarded forms of gameplay. Reward interaction with everyone, instead of only 1 or 2.
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@Gibberish said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3206826#Comment_3206826
Players will kill themselves for literally anything. Hell, just a couple days ago there was a feng who killed herself on the first hook of the match, after 3 generators had already been completed. The Killer wasnt even camping or anything, he had already started travelling across the map, and she just started killing herself immediatley upon being placed on the hook, despite the fact that we were winning.
Yes, but I think the more common issues would be better suited to addressing them specifically as opposed to a blanket change.
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@Laluzi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3206751#Comment_3206751
Do you understand what language is?
Words, phrases, and gestures gain meaning through repeated propagation until those meanings are baked into the vernacular and are universally or at least near-universally understood.
If I say "bubbery bubbery boo", it doesn't mean anything even if I intended for it to be an insult, because I just made those words up and there is no consensus on their meaning or reason for you to understand what I mean.
If I say "you're an idiot", it is an insult because I am using language with an agreed-upon meaning and that meaning is insulting.
Teabagging has an agreed-upon meaning. Its origin was meant to invoke "I am dipping my balls in your mouth" and it's evolved into a general taunt in online gaming. That's rude. People do it to be rude. I'll never understand this convoluted series of mental gymnastics that it's somehow your fault for being insulted when someone does something that is clearly meant to be insulting. Like, I get that there's plenty of people online who make getting offended about things an Olympic sport, but trying to claim language doesn't mean anything and you're a baby for ever being bothered by anything is an extreme in the opposite direction.
Teabagging as described today sounds like this horrific act that should be outlawed and is actually punished absurdly enough (Valorant and Apex LOL how shooters have fallen).
When I first was made aware of teabagging is was the simple "I won" / "I beat you" after a shoot out in Halo. No one in real life outside of stupid teenagers bullying or among friends would do this (people have teeth and can use them). You have enough time to "establish dominance" and taunt your opponent to put the simple-minded players on tilt, or get a laugh between your friends in the same/other room. This can then snowball your success because they will make foolish plays that you can beat again and again. It was a marking of skill to not be stupid enough to fall for it. Not much skill, but it existed.
Now too many people are so fragile they can't recognize the gift horse they are given. Every teabag at a loop is seconds that Survivor could have been hold-W-ing, or scanning for the next loop, or making any meaningful progress to Survival against their opponent. Every teabag I receive is a treasure, because I know I'm not stupid enough to fall for their silly little games, and they just gave me free distance.
This is an insult whose damage relies on the alleged victim to be dumb enough fall for it. Calmer heads prevail and win.
Now to the case of exit gate teabagging, the Killer still has agency. You can leave and sit in a corner so they can't do anything for 2 minutes, alt-tabbed watching a video or reading. Alternatively you can force them out and move on sooner to the next match, also getting a little more Devious/Brutality/Hunter points if you weren't at cap.
With the final case of endgame chat you can click the little box in the bottom right and presto it disappears. You can also just not read it. Check out your points, emblems, player perks/add-ons and move on. If someone is insulting you, you have no obligation to read it. Unlike real life it can be hard to straight up not hear things, Online you just don't read it. There are no lasting repercussions from ignoring some dingbat on the internet in a match of a video game. You opt-in to any "abuse" you receive, and I wouldn't even call it that hence why I put it in quotes.
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@kizuati said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3207017#Comment_3207017
Oh yeah I should mention that it stops. It's there to show camping andies.
STBFL - You see I dont like camping so I think I'm gonna stick with reverting the basic attack instead of the speed boost. For more opressive Killers,Nurse is reworked,Blight will get addon changes and Spirit is.. Spirit.. I dunno. I prefer the attack cooldown.
Pallets - Yeah but heavy pallets are going to be on the really bad loops you dont even need bloodlust for or a power for really. They're there to punish mistakes by the killer and create an expression of skill for survs.
Maps - It would be more that windows dont line up neatly and are a bit further apart. I'm sure further adjustments can be made. If there's one map where the change is #########,we can fix that one map.
BBQ - I want to incentivize the Killer going as faaar as possible,that was the idea personally. As for the most hooked surv - just run Distortion Kappa. I dont think it would be much of an issue.
Trapper - Yeah,the idea is that,y'know,you're going into his turf and half the tiles could already be with a trap in there that's either armed or unarmed. Then the trapper either just arms them or picks em up for their fav spots. That removes that awkward time where someone could call out all of your traps and gives you more breathing room.
Billy - This is supposed to be in tandem with my addon rework (coming soon.jpeg) for him. You can cancel the overheat sprint like a normal saw after a moment. I'd say that's better than having no saw for 10 seconds.
Wraith - 5% while cloaked is really not that much,we already have the shadow dance addons (those could be nerfed to compensate for baseline). I just want him to be able to do a tad more while cloaked. I thnk he's gonna be just fine.
Nurse - Yeah.. I just want her to be out of the way and stop destroying the balance.
STBFL - Understandable on that front.
Basekit BBQ - fair enough, that is why I recommended the gen instead of the person.
Wraith - Ok your original post didn't list numbers for Wraith, and I didn't know if that was a copy-paste/formatting error or what.
The rest agreed or understood with nothing else to add.
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@lifestylee said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3206957#Comment_3206957
I dont think hyperfocus+stakeout should work with toolboxes, besides that its ok i think.
Hard agree it should be the autodidact of gens. I never use it with toolboxes unless I need to make up for a facecamping Bubba/other or sweaty Nurse/Blight thinking I'll get them again.
Yesterday I fought the same facecamping Huntress 3/5 matches back to back and she was acting like she was skilled in missing half her hatchets at hook in melee range.
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@kizuati said:
I'm going to style this as a developer update for funsies,so humor me acting as an alternate reality BHVR.
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We're back with an unscheduled developer update,focusing on many upcoming changes coming to Dead By Daylight soon in the 6.9.0 PTB. In this edition,we'll cover many radical balance changes,Killer Reworks and updates to core game mechanics. Buckle up,this is going to be a long one.
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Sole Survivor Experience
Let's be honest. You've probably been left on hook or gotten frustrated at your teammates quite a few times. Playing in solo queue (Queuing up without any friends) can be a difficult challenge to overcome. You cant tell that one Dwight to not go for the rescue,since you have finally gotten that Deliverance or stop Mikaela from booning that one totem you need to break for you challenge.
This has been a complicated issue and a topic for many hot debates in the community and we've thought long and hard on how to bridge the experience of SWF and solo players together - these two groups being so far apart has been a big thorn in the side of any balance changes as they had to be weighed against both solo and grouped players.
We have developed multiple changes that helps bridge the gap between those demographics and we will have all of them available in the next Public Test Build for you to try out and give feedback on.
First: A version of the perk Kindred is now introduced as baseline feature. After a survivor has been hooked for 3 seconds,all survivors see each other's auras at any distance. The Killer Aura reading is not activated,unless the Killer remains near the hook for longer than 20 seconds,after which it activates for 40 seconds. The aura reading range is not affected by the survivor perk Open Handed. Bringing the perk Kindred now speeds up this process,revealing the auras faster and for longer.
Second: During the pre-game Lobby screen,you can hover over other survivors' names to see what loadout they're bringing - perks,offerings,items,addons. We hope this alleviates a lot of frustration with your teammates not knowing you have a specific perk you're trying to utilize. This information will also be accessible whenever you go into your settings menu mid-match.
Third: From now on,you'll be able to see action indicators near the survivors' portraits. They'll be able to tell you whether or not someone is doing totems,gens or running from the Killer. We're also experimenting with adding more specific contextual icons for specific perk interactions and other scenarios.
Fourth: This is not a change you'll see either in the 6.9.0 PTB or on the Live servers,however we'd like to note that we are now looking into re-designing many of our archive challenges to hopefully streamline the survivor experience,with less matches being lost due to rare challenges. In the coming weeks,we're going to disable the Archives system for a certain duration to assess how much it affects the escape rates,especially for sole survivors.
While some of these changes may seem like too much to certain Killer players,please understand that by bringing most of the survivor pool to a relatively close level of power,this allows for much easier balancing of the Killers.
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pallets,tiles & rng:
It's safe to say that the random nature of the Fog is one of the most core parts to the experience of Dead By Daylight. The Trial is ever-changing and The Entity is keeping you on your toes. However sometimes,it can lead to frustrations. We're making a few changes to the way we generate maps,adding new features and changing older ones.
The most exciting change perhaps is the addition of multiple pallet types. Yes,you heard that right,more pallets. Don't fret,dear Killers,there's more to this than just more pallets on your maps.
It's wildly known that not every pallet is created equal. Sometimes you can drop the shack at the start of the match to the sorrow of your teammates or sometimes you'll get a very unsafe one. While we don't seek to remove safe and unsafe pallets,watering it down to something in-between,there is a change coming to make it less frustrating for both sides.
Introducing - Light & Heavy pallets!
The new pallet types work pretty intuitively - lighter pallets stun for less time and take less time to kick,with heavier pallets being the opposite. While we're not going to replace every pallet with either Lights or Heavies,we will use them to spice up the trial.
Overly safe pallets,commonly reffered by the community as "god pallets" such as the one located in the Killer Shack,will now become Light Pallets. They're not very difficult to play and as such provide slightly less value. This change should hopefully make facing a survivor who tries to play it very safe around strong pallets less frustrating.
However the more unsafe pallets have now become more of a threat to the Killer. The added weight results in a longer stun time and requires extra effort to kick - while the loop might not be very safe,it will now come with extra risk for both sides.
We hope the additions to the pallet variety will both alleviate frustration and add satisfaction to making just the right call in an unsafe area.
Encouraging Variety:
The following changes are not definitively slated to make it to the Live version of the game and we're curious to see your feedback.
In hopes to encourage more fun map layouts,we'll be moving some of infamous Z-Wall and similar tiles closer to the middle of the map with your regular tiles getting pushed back a bit further to the corners. In our testing,this resulted in more chaotic,but fun layouts - however we really need your feedback on this one - sometimes our tests can miss problematic areas.
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Maps & Map Offerings:
We've seen a lot of passionate feedback in regards to the Maps in Dead By Daylight and looked into the top 5 biggest complaints we received:
- Overabundance of safe structures (Springwood,Fractured Cowshed & Garden Of Joy, among others)
- Maps being too small or too big. (Mother's Dwelling,Shelter Woods,Dead Dawg Saloon, among others)
- Indoor map layouts making it hard to navigate and find generators or hooks. (Racoon City Police Department, Midwich Elementary School & Lery's Memorial institute, among others)
- Totem spawns being too obvious or too difficult. (Lampkin Lane,Dead Dawg Saloon & Racoon City Police Department, among others.)
- Overly inconsistent safety or lack there of for Survivors in some maps. (Shelter Woods being one of the biggest sources of feedback)
While we dont want the Trials to feel too consistent,with occasional swings to either side's favor,our map design team has made some adjustments.
- Stronger structures like Long-Wall Gyms,Shacks,among others now are signifcantly less likely to "line up" or "chain" together. While these changes do not affect the average survivor,now it will be easier on Killers going up against veteran players who can utilize those structures being close by with frightening efficiency.
- We've slightly reduced the size of the biggest maps currently in the game,like Mother's Dwelling and Shelter woods. The reason why we've only slightly reduced them slightly is because we have some changes coming that will make map size less frustrating and allow us to have bigger Trials.
- Most of the totem spots the community has reported to us have been re-adjusted,with less totems appearing very out of the way for Killers to account for Boon Totems and less totems being in the open to save Hex: Devour Hope from being cleansed too quickly.
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Baseline Killer Updates:
With sole survivor brought up to speed,it only seemed fitting to revisit The Killers' baseline too,as it would required re-adjusments to the new state of things.
First: The basic attack cooldown changes have been reverted. In our effort to cut down on the "hold forward" playstyle,we've gone a tad too far and some unwanted side-effects have emerged. With the basic attack cooldown back up to 3 seconds,we hope to alleviate some frustrating scenarios and strategies that have emerged without bringing the "hold forward" playstyle too much.
Second: A version of the perk Corrupt Intervention is introduced as baseline feature. Upon loading into the trial the two furthest generators away from you will be blocked for 45 seconds. They immediately unblock upon downing a survivor. The perk Corrupt Intervention does not stack with this baseline addition and instead replaces it with the perk you all know and love. This bridges the gap between larger and more average sized maps,while not limiting our creative possibilities.
Third: Upon further examining the feedback and data from matches post the 6.1.0 update,we've decided it's fairly safe to further increase generator kick speeds to 2 seconds flat,regressing 5% of a generator instantly.
Fourth: A version of the perk BBQ and Chili is now a baseline feature as well. Upon hooking a survivor for the first time,gain a bonus score event and see the survivor furthest away from the hook. Subsequent hooks do not provide the score event,but do still provide you with the aura-reading. However if there's only 2 survivors left in the trial,you wont receive the aura-reading. The original perk remains unchanged.
Fifth: With the many changes to the maps,we now feel pretty safe in removing Bloodlust tiers 2 & 3. Bloodlust Tier 1 remains,although it will take 5 seconds longer to kick in. This has remained as sort of band-aid fix to occasional map generation issues,but now with those cases hopefully kept to a minimum,we feel comfortable with removing the higher tiers.
Individual Killer Updates
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The Trapper
The Trapper's bear traps are now substantially skewed in their spawns to the middle of maps,caringly placed in spots that might already catch survivors off-guard,should you reset them.
Additionally,there's now a random amount of your bear traps (from 35% to 45%) that will already be pre-armed,ready to tear apart their victims. This is The Trapper's grounds and survivors are coming into hostile territory.
Finally,once a trap snaps it's jaws,catching an unfortunate survivor,The Trapper will receive the option to press the active ability button,put his weapon away and hastily move with added speed towards the trapped survivor in a manic frenzy. (No,not the Feral Frenzy)
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The Hilllbilly
Max Thompson was at one point one of the strongest killers in the Fog and we seek to bring back some of his glory with a few changes to hopefully make him feel nicer to play.
- Increased Chainsaw Sprint Speed by 5%
- Decreased Chainsaw Charge Time by 3%
- The Overheat mechanic has been reworked. Instead of disabling your chainsaw,the overheat builds during the revving,quickly dissipating during sprints or while not using your chainsaw. Should you overheat,you will be forced into a Chainsaw Sprint for 2 seconds at a slightly reduced initial turn rate.
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The Nurse
The Nurse has been temporarily removed from the game while we work on revoking her medical license and providing a full fledged rework.
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The Wraith
- Increased uncloak speedboost duration.
- Increased action speeds while cloaked.
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And that's it for the first part of our imaginary developer update. Share your feedback in the comments and stay tuned for Part 2 where you will see addon passes,perk updates and more technical changes.
Kindred - As long as the 40s ends once unhooked that seems good.
Rest of Surv stuff is good
Light/Heavy Pallets an interesting way to deal with the various pallets, but I'm afraid some Heavy pallets will simply be too bad to kick and Bloodlust would be a better alternative.
Map tile adjustment - Does that mean Azarov's and Suffo Pit would be hard deleted? I don't think those middles could ever not chain lol.
Remove Basekit STBFL - Honestly I would rather the Surv speedboost be set back to 2.0s from 1.8s instead. This helps against the more oppresive power use Killers without nerfing M1 Killers in the same breadth.
BBQ - I don't think the furthest aura should be basekit. I would rather it be furthest gen recently worked. Plus what if the most hooked Surv is trying to stay away? Now they will incidentally be tunneled for trying to stay safe.
Trapper - I would like it if they were fixed spawns near loops, either along the loop or on the pallet/window. That way you can arm the trap and move on rather than pick it up to move it 4 feet. The disarm feature seems cool and would be neat if it worked kind of like Wesker/Wraith in terms of re-arm speed.
Billy - I haven't played him enough recently to really know, but I think a forced chainsaw might be worse in a lot of cases than just normal overheating instead.
Wraith - Numbers determinant, but if the speed is swapped back to the post-buff nerf I wouldn't complain. I think people just needed time to adjust, and weren't given that time. Action speeds however I don't know about, especially with 5% basekit kick regression only taking 2s.
Nurse - A bit boring but welcome. I've given plenty of suggestions in the past and those could work as well imo.
I also came up with a bit of a shake-up and posted it previously. If you or anyone else would want to check that out and maybe take some ideas from it feel free.
These are different avenues of buffing desired behaviors, and nerfing undesired ones. BP is not enough of an incentive, there must be mechanical rewards and punishments for gameplay acts. I don't quite care for credit, but I wouldn't want someone to steal the ideas and credit themselves. So because of that my name is Mark, and I am currently not a content creator or streamer. I am just someone who enjoys the peaks of the game, and hates the valleys.