mizark3
mizark3
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3400056#Comment_3400056
I can’t for the life of me understand why anyone believed killers would tunnel less when the one tool survivors really had to fight tunneling was taken from them, and killers were buffed across the board. I guess the confusion comes into play b/c ppl believed these killer mains when they said “we won’t tunnel we promise just buff us!” And then like they had a hand behind their back with their fingers crossed. Lol
Hoping Killers would tunnel less - Yeah it was more like a pipedream, or buying a lottery ticket. You aren't gunna win, so what you are actually buying is the hope that you would win, or in this case the hope you won't get tunneled.
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@egg_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3399804#Comment_3399804
Yes, we are. @edgarpoop explained it quite well in his reply:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3399880#Comment_3399880
The funny thing with this whole situation is that most actually good killers that I run against when playing with my swf run 1/2 slowdowns at most, but they're able to pressure the team at a whole different level. You don't see good nurses, blights or other strong killers with stacked slowdowns because they know that in most games it would just be a guaranteed stomp. Meanwhile, when we go against top tier killers with stacked slowdowns, we almost always get a 4 or 3 man escape, mostly because they usually just rely on those perks and don't really have an efficient macro gameplay.
I'm talking as someone with 4k hours, and usually I'm the one with the least amount of hours in the group I play with (with the average being 8k hours). We don't bring boons, we don't use DH or strong meta builds, yet...
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/1XIY11QJPURQ/image.png
The average game against "tryhard nurse/blight" goes like this, and other than the green medkit I wouldn't call anything excessively meta in our builds
The whole point being that killers excessively relying on slowdowns are way more common than survivors bringing a whole genrush build, and usually they're just bad players who can't pressure the game at a level required to win against a good team
That Killer match pic kinda sums up what I've seen echoed often on the forums. "You need all these Meta perks/Killer pick/comp strats in order to win." The problem is too many Killers think that is the only thing you need, or don't know when they need each. They use CoB without Nowhere To Hide/OC, and use PR without Floods/Gift of Pain/Agitation. They demonstrate that they don't understand the fundamentals, while expecting free wins because "I'm using Meta". If you don't understand why something is good, it is likely to go unused, or even worse, misused.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3399296#Comment_3399296
-"Call of Brine started out as a hybrid perk, offering both regression and information."
You keep pushing this narrative but nobody was using it for the information; they used it for regression.
I said what if we made exhaustion perks a dual purpose information perk and nerfed the movement or stun ability by 70% - Would anyone use them?
Nobody would use them even though they do something else but have a 70% nerfed ability and that's my point. You want to push the idea that a perk nerfed by 70-75% is still fine. Ok sure thing then let's nerf all the exhaustion perks.
In before : Exhasution perks are not the same as gen regression perks. The problem is that exhaustion perks delay damage and prolong chases. Longer chases means more time on generators/healing/rescuing/opening doors.
What do Exhaustion perks do? They give you extra time to delay so that someone not being focused in a chase has even more time to do whatever they are doing. Overall they create a time advantage for your team. Note: Kick perks that regress generators do the same thing for the killer.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3399812#Comment_3399812
-"Regardless you recognize Killers are abusing a problem in design,"
First of all I disagree with the word abuse as this is what the developers intended the game to be like after the 6.1 change. These perks allow you to have decent games with killers who are not "amazing" in chase like Nurse/Blight.
The thing that happened is that survivors said, "I don't like this" and as usual it got nerfed to placate them.
-"No one *yet* has been crazy enough to claim exhaustion perks in and of themselves are a problem."
From a game design perspective there is a problem if both sides have tools to do opposing things and then you take the tools away from one side but not the other.
Gen rushing perks didn't get 70% nerfs but gen regression perks did. Why did they not get equal treatment along with toolboxes?
Back in the beginning of DBD we didn't have gen rush perks because the devs were afraid we would have a situation where someone could put XYZ together and finish a generator in 40 seconds that was supposed to take 90 seconds (Looking at you Hyperfocus).
The bottom line here is that the devs caved to survivor pressure and delivered small survivor nerfs with massive killer nerfs.
The irony is that this should be the part of the plan where killers get buffed (as that was the next step after solo players got put closer to SWF play).
What the heck are you talking about 'decent' games with non-broken Killers? I literally just got done with a Ghostie win, (BNP+Syringe, don't remember the gen count on victory or map) A Pig win, (it was either 3 or 4 gens remaining on Suffo pit without me 3-genning) and a Clown win (2 or 3 gens remaining against BNP and I only got 2/12 pain res uses on Temple of Purgation) all three games during 100% Killer incentive if that affects anything. The only one of those games I had an early kill (before 7 hooks) was the Pig game where a Dwight babyraged and quit because his teammate screwed him over (I was gunna give him hatch cuz that Yui was a total scumbag, but tbf I don't know if that Yui was doing it out of malice or incompetence). Each of those games the only slowdown I brought was PR, but Pig I also brought Deadlock (to protect against multigen pops without traps on heads).
'Genrush' perks and toolboxes not nerfed alongside regression - I totally agree toolboxes should be shifted more towards sabo than gen progression. I disagree with the notion of many perks actually being able to rush gens other than Hyperfocus+Stakeout+BTL. Prove Thyself is a Killer perk/BP perk in disguise, as grouping up gives the Killer far more value than the perk counters the detriment of (106s->92s two gens ignoring travel time compared to 90s perkless dual solo gens). Overzealous on Live needs 2.1 entire gens uninterrupted before getting value (1.05 if a hex, and even post buff I wouldn't plan on using it). Resilience I think is fair in that you only get the benefit while injured, so that is a good risk-reward for both sides. The only nerf I see deserving is making Hyperfocus a gen equivalent Autodidact, (doesn't work with toolboxes) but I've held that position since I saw the PTB videos and math. Also 'back in the good ole days' the BNP was 100% gen progress, not 25%.
Minor Surv nerfs, massive Killer nerfs - Yeah Medkits are finally nearly balanced, CoH can't allow solo heals, DH might as well be deleted and Killers can't hold the game hostage in spirit anymore. I wouldn't say that's a massive Killer nerf unless you are talking about the low-skill players abusing near-free wins. Heck, when I did the math, PR is getting buffed for my playstyle (6 hooks and under the PR change is a buff, 7+ its a nerf, but at 7+ you typically killed 1 by then, so the game is won by default).
The only ironic thing I see, is how people claim how necessary it is to camp and tunnel, and in doing so they raise the kill rates. We know BHVR likes to float balance around a 60% kill rate, so if Killers intentionally camp and tunnel to inflate the stats, they deny themselves the buffs they claim they need. That's partially why I refuse to do those intentionally.
The main thing with exhaustion vs kicking, is that a consumable resource is used compared to a renewable on demand one. If they added a 40s CD (that refreshes on a surv tapping that gen) to CoB/OC instead of the regression nerfs, I'd be happy with that version also. Yes the time it takes to do anything can effect the times of everything else, but when there is a direct comparison available, (chase lengthening exhaustion vs chase shortening bamboozle/enduring/spirit fury/etc.) that direct comparison should be used instead.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3399995#Comment_3399995
Last official kill rates were 61% average across the entire player base. Numbers provided by BHVR from last September.
And it doesn't matter what changes occur, tunneling *always* increases.
If survivors get buffed or killer gets nerfed, tunneling 'becomes more necessary to win than ever before'. But if killer gets buffed or survivors get nerfed then tunneling is 'still the most efficient way to win and just got easier to accomplish'.
Tunneling always increases - That's not true, if DS stunned for 15s with unlimited uses, (only the timer/conspicuous limiting it) I'm sure it would drop immensely. It would clearly be an insane undeserving buff, but it would make tunneling drop. (I still think all the double nerfs of 6.1.0 need to be cut back to single nerfs, such as Pop being max % still, and DS being 5s still.)
The second part is sadly true though. After the basekit Killer buffs of 6.1.0, I was hoping soloq would ease up on the tunneling. Instead I had the opposite experience, as Killers were all too happy to abuse hitting off hook to deny Endurance, and taking advantage of DS being nerfed into near uselessness.
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I'm not sure Baker Estate would make a good DBD map. Generic indoor map could still be played with enough for Hotel/Prison to work as maps though. I think RE4 village is probably large enough with decent routing to make a good map, but I'm not sure if you would also need the Farm portion connected too. I would def like a Mall/Hardware store potentially with Carl joining as Surv. I would really like a 3 story pirate ship, with 2 floors on each half.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
I really do not know what has been happening with me lately, but it feels like I cannot loop as Survivor.
I have been playing a lot of Killer lately, mostly Ghostface. And when I go to play Survivor, it's just like my brain is unable to function properly now and Im really struggling to make decisions that should be easy. I go down in loops that would be fairly safe, and my reaction time has gotten slower it seems.
I only have this issue when playing Survivor as well.
Playing Killer is just perfectly fine for me, everything just seems to click, but it's only when I play Survivor that I have this issue.
Ive also just been having issues with anxiety, I find myself just playing Survivor a bit less than before since Im worried about disappointing my team. I often just SWF instead of SoloQ now because I know my friends are nice enough to tolerate anything stupid I do, mainly since we are just playing for fun. But with DBD slowly become more competitive (I feel), I feel more pressured to perform well when years ago I wasnt.
Im not saying that Survivor isnt fun, but moreso that things feel more complicated for me than before, and I just overall feel more anxious.
Another possible problem is your skill as Killer has far outpaced your skill as Survivor. That means you make moves that would work against you as Killer, but it is too brilliant so it rolls over into stupid against lower skilled Killers.
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@illNicola said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3399856#Comment_3399856
Entity window block and Bloodlust aren't brain dead. If in a chase I gain bloodlust, it's because the chase is taking too long. While the Window Blocking Entity was made for an obvious reason: to prevent survs from being inescapable from a window. As you said, healing and chases are for survs side quests, while in my opinion chases and gens should be both main quests. If you suck in chases, you die. This is how dbd has always been, until the devs woke up one day and said "Hmm, why don't we just buff how fast survs fix generators?". In fact, many survs don't even need to learn how to make good chases, because they can spam pallets one after the other and the comrades rush the gens. Before this, however, survs had to count the pallets with a dropper because they were very few, and many were unsafe and therefore you had to play it very well, but now survs don't need to learn to loop, they can genrush and win anyway.
Did the Killer's skill activate when Bloodlust kicked in? No, its just a band-aid mechanic for bad map design. That is the intended way to play Borgo/Garden of Pain (as far as I can tell). While yes, if you are good at your secondary objective, it can help you beat your opponent but only if the primary objective is still being advanced, that's why I categorize then as such. 'Doing Gens You' is an example of Survivor being good at secondary objective, but not being able to win because the primary objective is failing. Hens 3 gen pseudo hostage taking on Dead Dawg is an example of Killer not 'winning' by focusing on the secondary objective. Technically the Survs quit to not deal with that tomfoolery, making him win by default, but it still would have never ended in a win if played out.
I still think it should be a battle of being better at your primary objective than your opponent though. I'm not sure what a world of chases being a main quest for Survs would look like. To me it would seem like lower skilled Killers would feel like they are dealing with nothing but bully squads, when people are just trying to play normally and win in the new landscape.
Yeah they buffed how fast Survivors fix gens so much it rolled back over into taking longer. I'm confused how 80s->90s is buffing survivor gen speeds. BTL was changed way back when Mikaela released, so that isn't anything remotely new. Overzealous only gets value after 2.1 gens of being uninjured (1.05 if a hex). Resilience is nothing new. Thalita's Friendly Competition gives 5% for 75s after you duo a gen. So you spend ~53s in a duo to save 3.75s each, (assuming you instantly teleport and work on the next gen for the full 75s) That doesn't even make up for the time spent working together. So I'm confused what new buff there was to Survivor end gen speeds other than Hyperfocus, which you already said isn't braindead and requires skill to get meaningful value. I mean I guess BNPs technically got buffed in the gen timer change, since 25% of 90 is larger than 25% of 80, but that's more to joke that it got buffed given the remaining 75% that still needs to be completed.
You are correct that many Survs don't need to learn how to make good chases, but that is because they are going against Killers who are worse in chase. If hold W spacebar spam is beating a Killer, the Killer clearly didn't try to mindgame a single time, or loop a pallet instead of insta-kicking. Hold M1 on gen and instadrop every pallet without looping only works against a Killer that only kicks every pallet they see, and holds W themselves to follow the Surv. Even as Pig you just Bloodlust those Borgo filler pallets and kick them after you get the down. Any other Killer should be using their power to get an early first hit for stealth Killers, or an easy hit at a dropped pallet. If the Survivor is playing the pallet (not predropping), then isn't it a battle of wits of both sides? The better player comes out on top, and that doesn't seem bad to me.
Edit: I saw another post of yours here for what other 'genrush' issues there are. Prove Thyself is braindead, (in sabotaging Survivors sense) as grouping up to get gens done slower than solo at the risk of giving the Killer extra pressure is a losing move. Toolboxes also haven't been touched in 2 years in 4.7.0, so nothing is new there either.
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@Marik1987 said:
Killers besides Nurse, Blight and Spirit are supposed to be entertainers for the majority of the customers.
Yep, Nurse/Blight/Spirit are only fun for 1 person in a match. Most other killers can actually frequently reach 5.
@illNicola said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3399761#Comment_3399761
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3399762#Comment_3399762
But are we playing a different game or what? How is it possible that I, as well as my friends and many other people I know, are always against genrush builds? It seems that on this forum I talk to people who have never caught organized premades that make 3 gen within 20 seconds.
I don't know at what level you play, not even how much you actually play killer, but I alternate between killer and surv and, when I play killer, I always get at least 2 prove per game, endless toolboxes, hyperfocus is rare now because it requires a brain to be used. And even with 4 slowdowns gens fly, because slowdowns need a certain condition to be used (see pain resonance, you need to hook on a scourge, pop needs you to hook and kick a gen within 45 seconds, eruption needs you to kick first and then knock down a surv, and so on), unlike toolboxes and prove which are free bonuses to gen speed.
Do you see the difference? Gen speed perks are brain dead (exept hyperfocus), slowdown require the killer to actually be good to use them. Stop complaining about 4 slowdowns when these perks rewards the killer for playing good, while survs can get free gen speeds out of nothing.
For me when I win I don't care that they had a 'genrush' build. They brought ez mode and I rose to meet the challenge. When I lose I know the deck was stacked against me anyways. That mindset of 'underdog' gaming allows me to have fun on nearly all Killers. Heck, if anything, it makes ez mode killers feel worse to play, because the loss was truly exclusively my fault.
Gen regression - Overall I think since the game is asymmetrical, it is more of a time/score attack against the opposition. Killer needs to hook/kill survivors as fast as possible, while Survivors need to pump gens as fast as possible. You can make your win easier by slowing down your competitor's wincon (long chase or healing vs slowing gens or pressuring), but ultimately your role's goals should be completed. In that sense, healing and being good in chase are Survivor's secondary objective almost, and gen control Killer's secondary objective. Gen speed perks are brain dead as you put it, because entity window block and Bloodlust is brain dead. Both facets are designed for the primary objective to win out, and not the secondary. That's at least how I see it.
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@TheSubstitute said:
BHVR, I need to discuss what happened. I was playing a match and I lost. This is completely unacceptable. This is why your game is dying and has been on the verge of death every day since June 14, 2016!
It's obvious from my loss that (insert Killer/Survivor/Perk/Add-on) is completely OP and there are no counter strategies. The only reason why people say there are counter-strategies is because they are a (insert either Killer main or Survivor main) and they just want to keep their overpowered crutch. That's why I always win as (Killer/Survivor) while (Survivor/Killer) is so hard on the other side!
I know because I'm high MMR! No, I won't provide any footage of my matches because (my computer won't handle it/I don't want to download a program for it/I don't need to show anything). I lost! That is proof positive of terrible balancing!
Stop favoring (insert either Killer or Survivor)! Everyone knows you're (Killer sided/Survivor sided)! If you really want to please me, which you should because it's all about me fam, please make it so only positive effects from patches affect me and only negative effects affect my opponents.
Signed,
A completely impartial DbD player who plays both sides for certain.
Dude, not cool stealing my post framework. I guess I did leave it on an open googledoc, but how did you get the link? (All joking of course.)
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3399216#Comment_3399216
-"OC and CoB are not having their unique parts decimated so it is clearly a false equivalence."
And that's where you're wrong. Nobody will use CoB or OC after the patch because you take them to regress generators and after a 70-75% nerf they wont do that.
Killers do not kick generators with CoB to get info; they kick generators with CoB+OC because those perks absolutely destroy a generator's progress after about 30-40 seconds.
You use Sprint Burst to create distance where none exists and if it only had 30% of it's current effect then nobody would use it for exactly the same reason.
Regardless you recognize Killers are abusing a problem in design, (kick to DESTROY progress, not hinder or slow, but DESTROY without even the need to progress the game to a close with a hook or down) and the proposed nerf is aimed at tackling that problem part.
No one *yet* has been crazy enough to claim exhaustion perks in and of themselves are a problem. Instead, the complaints have mostly been relegated to DH, because how bad it feels to be hit by it, knowing you've been outplayed. That's why I said tongue in cheek, that Killer should have basekit movespeed difference tanked by ~70% also at 106% (I wanted it to still be faster than T1 Myers though). So you could hopefully bring a mirror up to your own claims to see how absurd they are in saying exhaustion is the same realm.
No one is arguing that an X% nerf wouldn't deal with the issue. Heck, DS got dropped to effectively 2s from 4s, (counting in the 1s shoulder drop) with a 50% nerf, and is worthless now too. The issue is DS is a solution to a problem (tunneling), but the unearned regression is the problem with CoB/OC. DS/Ruin/Pop/Self-Care's 'problem' was popularity, not strictly strength. That is why those were bad nerfs. Each of them getting a half-nerf would have been fine if popularity was the main driver. (DS no endgame, Pop to current OR 20%, Ruin death removal OR 100%, and Self-Care removing the Med-Kit efficiency.)
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For fairness? Both sides bringing the same caliber of loadout. (With an exception for BPS, then you can bring something a little sweatier.) No getting hit immediately off of hook. (Unless they are intentionally trying to take a hit for their teammate.) No one bringing a map offering. (Unless you bring a map that is unfavorable for you such as Badham as Killer or Midwich as Surv, and Scratched Mirror Myers gets an exception to be allowed on indoor maps.) No survivor being intentionally killed before hooking each survivor at least once. (If I can't find the 0-hook Feng that unhooked the death hook Jeff though, that is Feng's fault and not mine.) No instadown facecamping with a perk build for it. No intentional bug exploits that give an advantage. (Space Billy is fine though, if he gets back his flight credentials.) No 2nd story boons. (Especially against 110 killers.) No auto-aim into a miss. No getting blinded into a shoulder save from off-screen (Rare, but does happen occasionally.) No getting grab cancelled into an M1 when the animation was more than halfway done, or the hand sticks out for at least half a second. (Other than hook grabs.) No hitting invisible walls with Killer powers. (Garden of Pain's invis wall to prevent Billy/Demo shreds off the second story even blocked a Huntress Hatchet for me once.) Also a similar issue, no bucket height debris blocking movement at loops. (The FOV is fine EXCEPT when you get denied a hit or distance because a root of a tree, or a paint bucket.) No excessive latency. (About 100 is the still tolerable range.)
Other things might not be fun, but still to an extent seem fair, at least off the top of my head.
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At the risk of presuming too much, I think the DCs and hook suicides speak more to your playstyle than anything else (only hinted at by a Survivor with sub 10k BP [a common but not foolproof indicator of an early tunnel out of the game], and the other shown match with 4 DCs). You did post 2, but I was thinking 8+, (assuming 15 min games over 2 hours, 2 hours being the minimum to reach 'a few') but I have no clue how much free time you have. Fairs fair though, you do see that much sweat to counter your sweat. Even then it seems with BNPs, Survivors still stand no chance against you, so I'm not sure where the complaint lies. Bringing Blight/Nurse is the equivalent of all Survivors bringing BNP/Syringe, or being a coordinated SWF (a juicy Blight/Nurse build being the equivalent of Survivors doing both). I could understand the frustration as a mobility-less M1 killer, but you are literally playing on ez mode against enemies trying to also play on ez mode, and you still win. That seems perfectly fair to me.
Also the only remotely 'sweaty' surv build I saw was the inefficient toolbox build, (that build is better off with Yellow Efficiency add-on than BNP) that Cheryl brought alongside a farm offering. I mean heck, one of the BNP bringers brought Flip-Flop without Power Struggle along with BPS. No one brought Hyperfocus or Stakeout across all the games. That matches your all intel build pretty much also. The only major sweat facets - Blight and BNP - were matched against one another nicely. If BNPs are still an issue, have you played a bottom 5 killer instead of a top 5 killer? I would think the bottom 5 killer's personal MMR would be low enough to not see Iri add-ons every match, but it also could be time of day. I know when I play past 1am I fight predominantly scummy Killers in surv soloq (VPN for lagvantage and/or bug exploiting most frequently, maybe some facecamping and hard tunneling off hook sprinkled in), and it feels like my soloq teammates are all high as a kite (allergic to gens against the facecamping Bubba as one possible example).
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@mustdogen said:
Uhh basekit BT?
And lot of perk could counter it?
If there is really some mechanic that they need to focus on,i think is a mechanic to antigen rush,so that killer no need to bring 4 gen defence perk,and still get 4 gens done in 5 minutes.
Or a mechanic that really rewards killer for hooking but not killing, like a debuff for survivors every time them being hooked.
Basekit BT is an anti-tunnel mechanic so poorly designed it denies other anti-tunnel effects from going off. It does nothing to counter camping.
I wouldn't be opposed to some lesser form of basekit Thana/Gift of Pain, or a lesser Grim Embrace (that all only function while all 4 Survs are alive).
In general though I have no problem with 'genrush' as it is more an indicator of a matchmaking mismatch. When 'top MMR' is the top 25% of the game, that is equivalent to players in League of Legends at Plat going against Challenger opponents. I had an easy 'on-ramp tutorial' in the form of 25% max Pop with old Tinkerer. I was able to navigate different matches and learn and improve. I also started with Clown and Legion as my first mains, because I wanted to work my way from the bottom up. Since I didn't take many shortcuts to victory beyond old Pop, (I mostly didn't tunnel or camp) I learned how to end chases quickly, or abandon them for greener pastures.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398937#Comment_3398937
-"The OC and CoB survivor nerf counterpart is CoH and the basekit item of medkits in their entirety"
Killers get perks to make gens take longer and survivors get perks to make chases get longer. Exhaustion perks are to killer what gen regression perks are to survivor. Both sides have a tool to make the other side's objective take longer but the killer tool is nerfed by 70% this patch. So why not nerf the survivor tool by the same amount.
-"I understand a 70% nerf to the non-unique aspect is the exhaustion timer."
Since it's literally my idea I'm saying the stun or movement component of those perks is what would be nerfed. The timers would stay the same however.
You would never use Sprint burst with only 30% of the current effect and that's my point. You can dance around the issue indefinitely.
The problem is I was trying to be more honest and fair with throwing a bone at 2 minute exhaustion.
Killers get perks to make gens take longer - and Survivors get perks to make gens take shorter. (Eg. Hyperfocus/Overzealous/Resilience)
Survivors get perks to make chases longer - and Killers get perks to make chases shorter. (Eg. Bamboozle/Spirit Fury/Exposed perks)
Exhaustion perks are most certainly not the equivalent to regression, especially when you have a direct comparison available. I understand you were attempting a 'gotcha', but it is clearly in bad faith with false comparisons. I was giving you multiple outs, ('dual-fortress' OR shared facets) and you didn't take any.
Would I use a perk that gives 1.8m of distance? No. That's why people don't use DS. Joking aside, would you play killer if you had to move at 106% Surv speed as an M1 Killer? Clearly no. I can make an absurd claim and act like I 'gotcha' too. OC and CoB are not having their unique parts decimated so it is clearly a false equivalence.
@GrimReaperJr1232 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398937#Comment_3398937
CoB, sure. But considering Overcharge starts as a deficit, requiring you to defend it until the regression accelerates, I don't think it counts as being "unearned."
But people can immediately gen tap and fail the skill check, tanking 14% from the get go with no limit on gen count or cooldown. I'd be fine with CoB and OC in their pre-nerf forms if they only functioned on 1 gen at a time, and the CD was reset when the gen stops regressing.
The issue though is how they don't encourage ending the game with a reward for actually progressing it. They both encourage keeping things as they are, without requiring the game to come closer to ending.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3399030#Comment_3399030
Killer powers already largely can't be used while the killer is blinded. Flashlights don't need to be a stun against every killer. Instead of having an item solution to killer powers, a killer power that is too oppressive should just be nerfed instead.
We haven't seen the top 5 have any reasonable nerfs thus far, so I think that sadly is a bit of a pipe dream.
@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3399030#Comment_3399030
That would just make even more killers' powers frustrating and less reliable because of how they could be countered in these ways. None of the existing interactions being removed were overpowered, but they were annoying and unfun to be on the receiving end of. Especially with Wraith. And in the case of Hag it was a significant component of her counterplay which was bad design (though I will admit I’m not convinced that she isn’t going to be underpowered now that everyone can destroy her traps, she might need compensatory buffs).
Also, flashlights are not useless.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3399016#Comment_3399016
I might be wrong, but that sounds like a bug. Given BHVR’s reasoning for wanting to remove these flashlight mechanics, it wouldn’t make sense to only remove part of it and not the entire thing.
Flashlights not being worthless - Yes, but when I'm playing Killer I don't need the survivors to give me free health states or throw by running out of position. I'm confident enough in my abilities to not need that handicap. Naw, to be fair they have a decent sweet spot in middle skill brackets, but I feel as though I'm never blinded for a save without it being my fault in not paying attention to my surroundings. (Or an actual cheater getting a blind shoulder save, but luckily BHVR is actually doing some good work behind the scenes as of late, and I haven't seen a provable cheater in 3-6 months.) Although earlier today a Nancy bringing Iron Will actually got pallet blind value on me, so that was impressive to see. Sadly for her, she was the only capable Survivor on her team and the rest died at 4 gens remaining.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
The point wasn’t to make Nurse stronger, they wanted to remove these flashlight mechanics across the board for consistency and because they don’t want items having unique interactions with certain killers anymore. Nurse just so happens to be part of that group.
If they had done it only for Nurse and left it for other killers then I would have said it was a bad change. But they changed it for others too.
While I understand the logic behind the change, I think the opposite would be a better solution. Adding in Light Vulnerability for Killer Powers would make Flashlights less useless. It could also be used by all skill levels of players, which I think is important. Maybe flashing the light on an ally's active Pig's trap would pause the active timer for 15s, stop Wesker from Dashing for a short bit (similar to Nurse), put Blight into Fatigue, burn Oni blood orbs, burn Plague infection off of static objects, reveal Ghostface even if you are marked, and more. It would be more thematic in how the entity is giving the Killers their powers, and the entity's weakness being brought into play.
While I think there should be basekit methods of dealing with Killer's kits (and often are in most cases), this would give a consumable resource to potentially 'standardize' Killers more along M1 lines. Nurse styled power prevention might be the most common usage across Killers, but I think there is a great range of possible uses that could be explored. To be fair this might empower Bully squads to swarm the Killer. Although then they aren't on gens and would have to give free hits, so I think it would still weigh in on the Killer's favor in those cases.
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@Tostapane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398481#Comment_3398481
i've nothing aganist casual players, but you can't balance the game around people that play this game for a total of 20 hours and cry for every thing that they consider unfair because they don0t have enough experience regarding to understand how the game works, period. (people are actually complaining about killer being unfun also for this reason)
btw saying this you are indirectly admitting that this game isn't balanced when there are regular players/people with a modicum of skill, you know?
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398485#Comment_3398485
no and you know why? because i see THE CONTEXT of the perks/items/powers, not the usage... i want to remember you that with this logic they erased the %bonus on bp from bbq, this alone GREATLY increased the number of camping and tunneling killers and they NERFED selfcare, a perk that was situational and considered bad just cause it was popular... i'll say this again for the last time: you cannot balance this game around statistics (or at least you technically can, but don't be surprised if it will become unfun in the long run) otherwise you'll end to kill this game, but eh, each one his own i guess, keep thinking that i want to belittle statistics cause they went aganist what i'm saying...
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398492#Comment_3398492
A killer CAN'T control how the game will go... in a single chase you'll end up loosing 3 gens if survivors aren't trolling and they are working on generators and this without even putting bs maps like garden of joy, badham, lery, etc etc... even killers that are considered a+ tier aren't able to do nothing aganist people that know how to play... this is a good example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7pjrv4Fu3Y&pp=ygUZZGJkIG9uZSBzaG9ydCBjaGFzZSAzIGdlbg%3D%3D
An *outmatched* killer can't control how the game will go. That is moreso the flaw of our current MMR. The top 25% are all lumped in together, as I was getting to at the bottom of my previous post, in saying it is unfair. When killers learn how to run specific windows, how to use their power, when to swap chase targets, when to NOT kick a pallet or which side to kick it on, etc., they typically do quite well.
If Survivors are popping 3 gens in the first chase, they typically are 3 genning themselves, otherwise the Killer would have been able to disrupt the gens mid chase. Even without the hostage holding (in spirit) gen kick build, a 3 gen is quite easy to defend in general.
Garden of Pain and Borgo have the problem of too many pallets, but they are unsafe. Don't kick it and Bloodlust it if need be. Killers can get the kick after they get the down. Lery's has the different set of benefits and drawbacks of indoor maps. Killers can sneak up on people a lot easier, even when Survivors hear the TR without being a stealth killer. I got nothing to say about Badham though, those maps are straight up busted and should be altered. (Garden of Pain and Borgo should incorporate more fair windows instead of spamming pallets and god windows too, but they are still 'playable' more often than not.)
I don't find an argument of the extremes with one of the better survivors to be a compelling argument though, same if you linked Hens' sweat squad. Would you accept me listing Otzdarva's 50-win streak playlist, or SupaAlf on Nurse as proof Killer is too easy?
Even in that video you linked, the Legion continuously Frenzied on injured survivors without even chaining. That by no stretch of the imagination is a good killer. If that is your example of a killer unable to control the game, I agree. But no one playing that bad should be allowed to have control over how the game will go, unless their opposition is equally bad. Heck, even with the Weskers, most of them made massive misplays. One on Lery's kicked the pallet from the outside of the map instead of the inside, giving Ayron a free path to more pallets and windows. Is your argument people should win while continuously making huge mistakes?
Killer's loss is tied to them making mistakes (in general), while Survivor's loss is tied to any Survivor making mistakes (in general). It is all too easy to get a hook on that weaker Surv who predropped 3 pallets, then get an injury or down on their rescuer in the deadzone the newbie created.
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@bunnyfengenthusiast said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398905#Comment_3398905
I run into an average of 2 BNPs per game. The games that there is no BNP in, a survivor will typically dc/suicide on first hook.
Then quit bringing them with your friend. Jokes aside, I highly doubt that. I will only believe that if you take a snapshot of the endgame screen of playing matches for a few hours. My experience is they are few and far between on both sides.
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@MrSlayer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398460#Comment_3398460
Yeah, I get what you're saying. I shouldn't be forced to murder baby survs at 4-5 gens just so my current killer stays afloat in some esoteric MMR system -.-
I'd even be fine with an alternate hook button on death hook or like current Moris on the ground, that 'kills' the survivor for MMR purposes and destroys the hook (if hook button), but still lets them play and get BP. That way I prove I 'won', but can still let them have fun if they are new.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398451#Comment_3398451
-"Honestly I am fine with nerfing exhaustion perks by ~70% as long as we use the same philosophy"
You don't seem to understand that a 70% nerf to sprint burst would reduce the active time to sprint by 70% and then you would have the standard cool down timer.
That's what happened to Overcharge and CoB got a 75% nerf. Maybe Lithe should get a 75% nerf instead.
Would you use lithe to get 1/4 of its current speed boost? I think not.
No, I understand a 70% nerf to the non-unique aspect is the exhaustion timer. The unique facet is the speed boost activation method and duration. Sprint Burst is 3s on hitting shift/run button for console, Overcome 2s (extra) on getting hit, Smash Hit 4s on pallet stun, Balanced Landing 3s on a drop, Lithe is 3s on a non-slow vault, Head On is instead a stun for 3s, DH is instead Endurance only usable while injured.
You are making a false equivalence of the regression numbers being the sprint/stun/endurance duration. The actual equivalent is the shared feature, the cooldown, the exhaustion timer. The intel on CoB isn't lasting for 15s, and the Skillcheck from OC isn't a 30% chance to be placed on the gen on kick, they both function fully still (albeit OC dropping from 15% to 14% regression on failure).
The OC and CoB survivor nerf counterpart is CoH and the basekit item of medkits in their entirety. Both are addressing 'dual-fortress' gameplay as someone else put it. There could be an argument made for DH and PR being the 'equivalent', but when I did the math, I found PR is being buffed in my games. (More when I need it, less when I don't. Also I can just avoid a Scourge hook if I get too quick of a down at the start, and don't want to waste the regression.) It is being nerfed if the killer camps and hard tunnels off hook, and nerfed in toggle tunneling at the 4th hook. In normal gameplay though, it is only nerfed by the 7th hook. If you hook everyone at least once, the soonest someone dies is at 7 hooks, and the latest is at 9 hooks. Once someone is dead, I'd argue the game might as well be won for killer at that point in the majority of cases (with the main exception maybe for 1 gen remaining when placing the Survivor on their death hook).
@RaSavage42 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398451#Comment_3398451
Ok fair enough
I don't think that COB and Overcharge are unearned... The Killer needs to spend time kicking Gens... Losing sight of Survivors
Gen times are for both sides... but mostly Killer
But to each their own
My reasoning for calling CoB and OC unearned, is because Pop and PR are gained on hook, and Eruption and Jolt on down. Even Ruin requires defending if you want to keep getting value, so you earn Ruin's regression through defending the Hex, and you can't defend ruin and gens at the same time. Each of my example regression/slowdown methods (other than Ruin) are gained through advancing the game (hook states, or downs which typically lead to hook states), rather than stagnation. Even with Ruin, once the hex is cleansed, it can't come back, while CoB and OC can keep rearing their heads regardless. I also think Deadlock is unearned, but I only find it a problem when paired with aggressive camping. I think Deadlock is overall healthy, because it addresses a killer dealing with survivor problem, splitting on gens. It also does what Eruption did in a healthier way, as the survivor can voluntarily 'incap' themselves by waiting out the timer, or find and progress another gen.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3397540#Comment_3397540
-"How often do you actually see people save BNPs for the final 3 gens?"
Bad players use their BNP whenever on the first gen they find. Smart players wait until the killer gets in a chase then burn their BNP on a generator that breaks the strongest 3 gen on the map.
It doesn't matter what you do after the 3 gen is broken because for most of the old killers there is no coming back. If you have gens in a "Y" configuration you can't defend that unless you are Blight/Nurse or have a teleport power.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3397606#Comment_3397606
-"I do think at minimum toolbox skillchecks shouldn't work with hyperfocus."
And for the exact same reason that you can't use Autodidact with a medkit. Literally everyone offered this suggestion on the PTB but BHVR didn't go through with it because it makes for a nice "must buy" pay to win perk if you have the Wesker DLC.
BNPs - Yes, smart people do the smart thing. My question was essentially how often do you see people do that smart thing? The vast majority of my BNP matches are a single person using on their first gen, or dying with it unused (either because I saw the BNP under hook as Surv, or because 0 of the gens were completed so I just have to assume it went unused). I probably have only seen 4 BNPs once or twice, and I remember winning at least one of them regardless. I think BNPs are more of a boogeyman that doesn't actually live under the bed. Syringes I completely understand and agree are a problem though, and with the self-healing nerfs they will take 24s basekit to go into effect on yourself, so I feel like that is getting fixed.
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@Tostapane said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396528#Comment_3396528
You see, the perks that you have mentioned are still usable/useful, especially if you are playing in a premade, but the perk about gen defense were literally destroyed, that's the main difference (and why most killers out there are being forced to play in the same way in every match in order to have a tiny chance of killing someone)... Now the game is stucked in only a singular type of gameplay: genrush and tunneling/camping. Keep touching things that didn't need a change and devs will find their game without killers... I'm still ashtonished every time that i see people keeping asking for nerfs about the killers, but this is how dbd is after all: the bigger part of the playerbase will be listened more, even about STUPID changes that will utterly worsened the current situation...
I wasn't aware CoB was losing the Good Skill check intel, and OC was losing it's bonus skillcheck. Even Pain Res is getting buffed at 6 and under hooks, and only getting nerfed at 7+ (which if you aren't winning at 7+ hooks, you got bigger problems). Only unearned regression is being nerfed, and nothing is forcing tunneling or camping other than a lack of skill on the killer's part.
The theory of MMR does work against tunneling and camping, even if you disagree with escape based MMR like myself. If someone only gets kills as Facecamping Bubba, they will get Survivor's that survive more, either by hiding or looping. They never learned how to win chases, so more people will win against them. This concept also works with using shortcuts and/or crutches to win, instead of winning without them. Now to be fair, the matchmaking is loose enough that 'top MMR' is actually the top 25% of the playerbase, instead of <.1% in other games. That means if you reach the lower end of the 'top MMR' the skill difference is the equivalent of a Platinum League player going against Challenger players, it just isn't fair.
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@Veroles said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398238#Comment_3398238
For me a casual player is someone who plays a game every now and then, To use "causal player" as a definition to describe a certain playstyle is absolutely new to me.
I've usually seen it be used more in terms of skill/game knowledge than hours. If one plays casually, they have a tendency to autopilot their gameplay. If they are taking the game more seriously, they are continuously seeking new information in the form of power mastery, macro strategies, and micro mindgames, tile/pallet spawn recognition, and more. There are people who can pick up a large amount of info quickly, and people who need to take longer to cement a concept. That's why I understand it to be effort instead of time.
@NotAnotherDoctor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398337#Comment_3398337
I came to the conclusion long ago that some streamers are spending their time off camera lowering their MMR because there's no way I hell they're getting games as easy as they're getting as much as they're getting them.
I can't speak for Tofu though as I haven't watched much of his content.
There are numerous reasons matches can be wack. I think the most likely case is negativity bias. People can win 9 matches, but the loss against the sweat SWF ticks them off enough to feel like the game is unplayable. If you truly think your matches are crazy, I just ask you play and record 5 matches with the incentive favored on Killer, and 5 with the incentive favored on survivor. Watch the matches back afterwards. You should only be winning half of matches anyways, (or at least equal to losses, not counting ties) with a ~60% kill rate if the matchmaking is functioning right. One of the biggest factors is time of day at your region though.
@MrSlayer said:
Can you go lobby shopping in higher MMR?
I'm not sure where I am, but not at the bottom cause I mostly get competent survivors. I'm starting to recognize sweat squads and opt out, same with ttvs.
But yeah, matchmaking in this game is awful. Yesterday I've ended up babysitting while playing Spirit, cause I got completely green team and couldn't bring myself to massacring them. It was strange, because I rotate killers I play and shouldn't get baby teams at all. It's just mean for the newbies -.-'
I honestly preferred rank based matchmaking. It allowed me to 2-hook tango and let people go, but I could still get fun matches. Now I feel like I have to kick puppies just so the game doesn't force me to kick puppies the next match. Rank matchmaking gave me that nice middle-ground.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398427#Comment_3398427
A White Ward protects whatever item and addons you are carrying when you die/escape.
If you destroy your medkit using a Styptic or Syringe, or put your item down (or drop it because of Franklin's) and then die, the offering does nothing. If it successfully saves your item after death, it also makes the item disappear when you die (instead of being left below your hook) so none of your teammates can take it after your death.
Yeah, but the tooltip doesn't express that. It says "Grants protection against the loss of your item and its Add-ons." Not "Grants protection against the loss of your item and its Add-ons, unless you drop it, lose it through Franklin's, or use the consumable add-on or other add-on that destroys the item."
It could just be changed to "Protects the item being carried and its equipped add-ons if you die with it in your possession."
Strangely enough the current version allows for duplication of event items. Just have a SWF bring all White Wards and then have everyone grab the dying survivor's item.
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@RaSavage42 said:
Survivors don't like Killers regressing Gens... and these changes prove that
It's the same as:
Ruin- changed from .50 charges per second to .25 charges per second (excluding OG Ruin)
Pop- changed from 25% of 90 to 20% of current progress
Now...
Call Of Brine- changed from .50 charges per second to .3125 charges per second for 60 seconds
Overcharge- changed from .1875 charges per second to .2125 charges per second (at the start) then grows to .50 charges per second to .325 charges per second
SH: Pain Resonance- changed from having all 4 Hooks permanently SH to having tokens and 15% of 90 to having 4 tokens (1 per Hook) and 25% of 90
Also the fact that when the game was released there was no Gen kicking action
BHVR needs to realize why we as Killer players run these perks on another level then "oh they are using X perk more then the others... let's nerf it"
And the fact that they even added 2.5% of current progress to the base kick is annoying to say the least
Oh... I just remembered putting COB and Overcharge together is .6375 charges per second for 30 seconds
BHVR also needs to realize that % of current progress doesn't matter...
But who am I....
I think it is more accurate to say people don't like the game being held hostage in spirit, even if not by the strict letter.
Pre 6.1.0 Pop/Ruin were the most fair forms of regression, and I don't like how they were changed only for popularity's sake.
At first I was against the Pain Res changes, but then I realized it is a buff before 7 hooks. If you haven't won the game by 7 hooks, an extra pain res isn't gunna help you out enough to prevent that anyways. I understand the problem of hook trade camping, and this doesn't fully address that, but at least it comes close.
CoB and OC are unearned regression, and unearned regression should be proportionately weaker than earned regression. This fits that without nerfing their unique features (Intel for CoB, Bonus Skillcheck for OC).
The reason killers run regression is they don't have confidence in chase enough to win with 450-630 gen seconds (sometimes people split on final gens, and 630 accounts for all gens 99'd). Regression adds to that minimum and maximum. Pallets are a consumable resource, in the same respect as gen seconds are. The difference is you can 'rebuild' a gen before it pops, but you can't rebuild a pallet.
The issue with modern map design, is they are based around pallets, not windows (other than a main building god window). Windows allow for skill expression on both sides, and pallets flatten that for the most part. The problem is many killers insta-kick pallets, rather than use their power or bloodlust filler pallets. That is my trick to winning Borgo/Garden of Pain mostly. Is it fun, no, is it effective, yes. When people realize they need to BL the boring filler pallets, or the maps utilize fair windows instead, then we can have better maps, and more confident killers that don't rely on 4 slowdown.
Sadly this bad map pallet abuse is the survivor's equivalent of weaponizing fun against their opponent just as camping is killer's. It isn't exactly the same (unless they sent you to that map), because the survivor's choice is drop pallet or die, and Killer's is camp/pressure gens/chase rescuer. It also isn't truly equal, as camping can be done on any map (outside of 2 story maps with Reassurance in play), but both are still problems nonetheless.
@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398064#Comment_3398064
If we Nerfed the effect of all exhaustion perks by 70% do you think any survivors would still use them? They would have the same cooldown of course.
Honestly I am fine with nerfing exhaustion perks by ~70% as long as we use the same philosophy - don't touch the unique portion. That means all exhaustion perks have a T3 CD of ~120s instead of 40s. You get value once per hook state, or if the killer completely ignores you for 2 minutes of walking/not moving. I don't think unearned regression is the equivalent aspect as exhaustion, (this is dual-fortress gameplay being addressed, with CoH being adjusted on survivor side) but I don't know what would be a good counterpart adjustment.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3397540#Comment_3397540
Styptic and syringe destroy whole medkit with addons so there's nothing to white ward. BNP just disappears so there's no saving it (but u can keep your toolbox)
That's strange as the phrasing is exactly the same as the Black Ward. I just figured they would function the same. They should update the tooltip so it doesn't trick people. Plain text shouldn't be that difficult to change.
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Yes and no. I like the idea of sub-optimal fun perks, that still require playing the game (progressing gens). At the same time I don't want it to become meta and nerfed needlessly, or even a Calm Spirit 'buff' where it actually gets nerfed. With many gen kick perks being nerfed, people are going to kick gens far less, so getting value with it is going to be even harder. The main problem is I can't think of a decent buff that wouldn't make it crazy. Maybe reward delayed explosions more? If it is activated in the final 10s maybe get an extra 1-2s of stun? That way it also encourages using it early in the hopes of getting that last second value, at the cost of losing a quick bomb on the next gen already prepped.
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I've never been a fan of Spirit, and always put her within the top 5, minimum top 10 in terms of effective killers. I don't like her as either side due to work based hearing damage, but even with that I can still rack up easy wins playing as her. I often just dislike how easy it is for a Spirit to bruteforce a win, without even tactically using their power.
One important thing to note also is as long as you don't intentionally tunnel, it is super easy to get hits since no one uses Iron Will anymore. OTR may pop up occasionally, but even then you can just use the scratch marks for a last known position. That feels like the biggest indirect buff she has gotten, that often goes slept on.
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The general ranking in my experience is
Comp SWF>Comp Killer>Serious SWF>Serious Killer>Average SWF=Average Killer>Meming Killer>Soloq
Soloq makes up I wanna say minimum 40%, but I think 60% of games. That basically means the game is killer sided in the majority of games, even with meme builds.
@VirtuaTyKing said:
Get them to try a weaker killer for a while until their mmr is raised then see what they think lol
If their MMR is raising, then they are winning matches (unless Survs are donating kills). Them raising in MMR would show Killers win more than they lose, which in turn would imply killer-sided.
@Deathstroke said:
Killer sided in lower levels but very survivor sided once they know what to do in higher levels of play. Unless the killer is blight or nurse. Even if the game would be killer sided it would still be by far harder role the game is 1vs4 after all.
You act like matchmaking doesn't bring in anyone off the street and you get a Hens-level SWF every match. 1 weak link can break the chain for survivors, and that only isn't a risk in a pre-made.
@Firellius said:
Going by the last stats BHVR released, the game is slightly killer-sided.
To be fair the aim of the oft-quoted 60% kill rate is taking into account a 1k facecamp in endgame still being a Survivor win, among other variables that can artificially pad kill rates.
@I_CAME said:
The argument that the game is survivor sided revolves around a fantasy scenario that where all four survivors are extremely good in 98% of matches. It's extremely rare to see four extremely high level players in one game. Competent players are not rare but players who make no mistakes are. I wouldn't be rocking an 80% win rate on killer if everyone at high MMR was good. I very rarely run into games where I feel like I had no chance. It certainly happens but not to the degree that some people pretend it does.
If high MMR was really as hard as people say then you wouldn't see people winning 600 games in a row on killers like nurse and blight. Even lesser killers Onryo, Nemesis, Trapper, etc have documented 100+ win streaks in the MMR era. Killer is only hard if you bring meme builds and don't play to win. You have so many nuclear options as killer to stack the game in your favor. If you still lose with four slowdowns, strong addons, hard tunneling then it's a skill issue on your part. Saying every game at high MMR is a four man comp SWF is just a cope for bad players. To repeat what numerous comp players have said "high level play does not happen in public matches."
My opinion on this is biased though. I have over 3000 hours on killer which is far more than the average person who plays this game. I'm obviously not speaking from the perspective of a less experienced player. I can definitely see why more casual players would find playing killer to be difficult. Especially considering how easy it is to reach the soft cap and end up facing sweaty teams.
Most accurate answer. Many lower skilled killer mains don't realize while tunneling the 7k hour uber-juicer Steve that the soloq 100hr Feng is cleansing a dull totem, then crouchwalking into basement to open the chest. The survivor HUD just confirmed my suspicions of how truly worthless my soloq teammates are in general, and that doesn't even take into account how many 'throw the game' tomes Survivors have to deal with. Even when I get a 'throw the game' Killer tome like a pseudo adept, I can just put Doctor's perks on Blight/Nurse and get the free win regardless.
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@bunnyfengenthusiast said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396934#Comment_3396934
It's funny how you mention three of the strongest addons in the game, who almost everyone, killer mains included, agree should get nerfed, and believe you're making a solid argument.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396955#Comment_3396955
While BTL can refill items, it's important to account for the time spent refilling them in a locker. And while We'll Make It provides more efficiency than a BNP in raw numbers, it's important to remember the fact that gens are a killer's primary objective, and are often patrolled, whereas survivors can heal anywhere. The extra 22.5 seconds (""only"") of gen time that is saved is crucial, because it's a static objective.
Even accounting for a generous 18s per 'reload', you get a solid ~50s, on top of it being available when you need to speed up a gen. the BNP is only available the first gen you try to use it on. How often do you actually see people save BNPs for the final 3 gens? Heck, you can't even tell unless you watched them personally, or had a recording of the Survivor HUD seeing it speed up. The majority of my soloq teammates burn BNPs on the very first gen, and typically drop their box for a chest item instead. Them wasting time rerolling their item on the chest often makes up for the BNP boost alone.
@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3397492#Comment_3397492
We talked about addons that can speed up chase by 50%. He has an addon, that can skip 2 hook states AND injury - that's way more then 300% speedup and quite bonkers.
But the point stands. It's ok for MM to have such an addon (same as all the other killers in my very much incomplete list) so long as survivors have commodius with BNP's. I would argue that survs are still at disadvantage, because killers can black ward their OP stuff, while survivor's OP things just vanish after use...
I thought White Ward saved whatever item and add-ons they brought into the trial, even if they used an add-on mid-match.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396950#Comment_3396950
You have base kit bt for your "spawn protection"
Then I can use OTR and deny tunneling once I actually have control of my character right? Oh no wait, anti-tunnel endurance deep wounds when it clearly shouldn't. People made meme youtube videos with their viewers and pretended that you would actually be able to do that in a real match you would win. You would not only need to farm MoM, throwing the game to do so, but also be unhooked with OTR (before they removed its endgame endurance) and a friend maybe bringing BT just to get 3 hits before DH-ing/styptic-ing for the 4th. As long as killers can immediately hit off hook with no recourse, there is no 'spawn protection', especially since it denies the future ability to resist going down. It can even deny a Bite the Bullet play.
A much better version would give anti-tunnel endurance -10s remaining each time you are hit. That way you would have to Bubba saw an OTR user off hook 9 times (80s OTR, 10s basekit BT) before they go down (assuming you insta hit them off hook and hit them the second the I-frames ran out each time). This would only function this way for anti-tunnel forms of endurance, and doesn't mean the killer gets no value if they get early and often hits. It would have a reasonable risk to tunneling, as there would be uncertainty in "how many onion layers I have to shred through, maybe I should just go for the unhooker or the person working on the gen instead." All endurance drops on 'Conspicuous Action' anyways, so they can't progress the game if they want value. If people are afraid they will abuse bodyblocking then just remove collision while under the effects of anti-tunnel endurance.
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@bunnyfengenthusiast said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396925#Comment_3396925
DBD isn't a casual party game.
But assuming it is, why not just make call of brine regress gens by 600%? It's a goofy, fun, unbalanced perk. Why shouldn't DH make you invincible for the remainder of the trial? That's just goofy and fun, isn't it?
It 100% is a party game, but you do have a point, too many people take this game far too seriously (probably myself as one of them). The extremes in BNP/Syringe/Nurse/Blight against Add-on less Green Key/Green Map/Freddy/Doctor are what make the game a party game. It is far too varied in terms of balance without making drastic changes, and even then pretending those changes makes the game a balanced competition is just as much a joke as 'pro' Smash players. You can play king of the hill, but the hill is made of manure-based fertilizer.
Anyone can have fun rolling in the pile, just remember to shower afterwards.
Edit: (Also worst case scenario all 4 survs bring BNPs which drops 5 gens to 4. A 20% difference from a stacked team is hardly a regular issue, let alone enough to prevent you from injuring and downing them. People reliant on those crutches tend to be without skill, which would make your match easier indirectly.)
Edit 2: One of the juiciest Toolboxes with Built to Last gives you ~105 gen seconds, and that same juiciest toolbox with a BNP instead of one of those add-ons (still with BTL) only gives ~95 gen seconds. The other synergies are much more egregious than the BNP itself. BNPs feel bad because you see a big iri addon, but a BNP in and of itself only buys 22.5s. 3 unhook heals with We'll Make It provides more value. BNPs feel worse than their effect actually hurts killers.
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@Crowman said:
Dead Hard is barely getting touched.
The reason why camping and tunneling are still in the game, is because the ultimate goal for the killer is to kill survivors. Survivors cannot be allowed to have invincibility states as the killer should always have the threat of killing a survivor. Not to mention any sort of invincibility is going to end up being abused. The only way camping/tunneling would be removed would is to completely rework the game which there is really no need to do, because DBD is doing just fine as it is.
The ultimate goal of Halo/Call of Duty/Smash Bros. is to kill the opposite team, but even they all learned the basic lesson that you need some form of spawn invulnerability, or killing people out of spawn will be abused. It is no different with unhooks. Spawn invuln can be abused, but killing someone out of 'spawn' is far more egregious. 2 seconds wouldn't destroy the game, especially since killers can still easily hit the unhooker in that timeframe.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395142#Comment_3395142
The problem with DH is the original PTB version was a massive nerf that turned DH into a situational perk where survivors might easily get 0 activations the entire match…… and then BHVR gave DH a huge un-nerf, where survivors get 2 activations for free, and now the perk is very usable again.
DH deserves a nerf with the same intensity as the original PTB version. Giving the perk a huge un-nerf shouldn’t have happened, and if BHVR really did need to change the effect a bit, then should give the perk an additional nerf so it’s as bad as the original PTB version.
Because right now it feels like we got a bait and switch, where the original PTB version gave people hope that the perk was finally massively nerfed, and then it got switched out for a huge un-nerf.
DH now fits in the role of 'blue shell', to reward you for losing. This is the same design as NOED, Deadlock, Desperate Measures, and Blood Rush. It already was super unreliable (and often weaker) compared to SB, which SB also had greater skill expression anyways. (You can record matches on the current patch and check how many times people didn't use/failed to use DH right now. Heck even try to use it yourself as Survivor, I've been exhausted on the ground/"I pressed E" so often I don't even bother with such unreliability.) Personally I think the best version of DH is endurance against Special Attacks only. That way it is an equalizer perk that helps against some of the most busted killers, without hurting Legion/Clown/Myers/etc.. To be fair there will still be exceptions to the rule in terms of strength (Spirit is only M1, Artist zoned M1 instead of bird), but in general it would probably be the most fair version that way.
@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395142#Comment_3395142
Almost every gen regression perk is on the chopping block.
SB , Lithe and Overcome didnt get a 75% reduction in effectiveness like CoB did. That's madness.
To an extent that is a fair argument, exhaustion perks being second chance perks the same as regression/slowdown perks being second chance perks. The problem being you would have to nerf the unique facet of those perks, and not the tertiary benefits. I would say a fair assessment there would be the inability to recover exhaustion while working on a gen. That way if the killer procs their endurance, they can't immediately hop back on gens with little to no punishment. They have to willingly not touch gens to get their endurance back, which could also help encourage chests/totems/altruism.
@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395601#Comment_3395601
If you're looking at what the perks do and only looking at the information they give for generators then there is one very clear winner (it's not gearhead by the way - that's a very stupid rework of that skill). The only time you might want to use nerfed CoB over Surveillance is when playing Nemesis for the"EXPLOSION NOISES" (thanks Mr. Torgue).
But it's a moot point because nobody cares about Surveillance without considering gen regression. This patch is going to make is so that you play killer and ignore the generators completely.
Kicking becomes worthless. Every gen regression perk becomes worthless.
Killer will immediately move to "chase" saving perks and" End game" perks. And then the devs will be like hey why is nobody using these perks we nerfed by 75%?
Moving to chase perks - How is that a bad thing? Even on live I frequently only run 1 slowdown (2 tops), intel and lethality are undervalued and underutilized. When people start to use them they will appreciate how truly valuable they are. It also ensures both sides spend more time advancing their win condition, instead of delaying their opponent's.
Also Buckle Up was never good, and they (BHVR) have no idea how to even make it usable. I would prefer garbo perks like this be buffed to the point more people are willing to drop their Adrenaline or other perk in the hopes of getting value out of the buffed garbo perks.
@DBDVulture said:
Is it too late to ask : why are we nerfing all the gen regression perks but not nerfing all the gen rushing perks AND the gen rushing item (toolbox)?
Also very fair point, I think we should shift toolboxes more towards sabo gameplay, since that has risks and rewards for both sides with direct interaction. I wouldn't remove the repair bonuses altogether, but certainly tone them down a bit. To be fair though, we did get the most powerful survivor item (medkits) gutted, so I wouldn't be looking gift horses in the mouth. I wouldn't doubt a similar timeframe down the line as 6.1.0 -> 6.7.0 that we get a toolbox nerf as well. I mean heck, we even got a bizarre flashlight nerf/buff combo in between, so it isn't like they are unwilling to make changes to items. I just hope they make keys viable again outside of Blood Amber abuse.
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@MrSlayer said:
Like the title says, I'm starting to get lost and would like some advice from more experienced killer mains.
I've played as various killers for around 700-800 hours now and honestly I don't know anymore. Against people that are semi-coordinated the best I can do is to hog few closest gens and run between those, sometimes hitting someone or going for 15-20 second chases before I have to come back and defend gens once more. On big maps it's not even that - most of the time I'm forced to defend 3 closest gens, because people know the spawn spots and focus on those. It's either that or throw the current game.
I'm quite invested in DbD (besides gameplay I'm a sucker for killer cosmetics), but after many hours this game feels more like a funky security guard simulator than a horror game. What am I missing?
Since the game uses escape based matchmaking, not skill based matchmaking, you won't always get good matches for either side. The best way to improve is record all your games. Afterwards, toss out the wins (unless someone juiced you for a stretch within there). Rewatch the losing scenarios, and try to think of other ways you could have done things. Did you hear a gen being worked on the side? Maybe you could have swapped aggro. Did you kick the pallet? Maybe you could have played it/bloodlusted it. There is always something you could have done differently, and the goal is to test out that different strat in another match.
Once you have that goal to test something different in mind, try to chase purely to get better, and ignore gens. Maybe bring only lethality perks, or passive slowdown, and just see how well you do. You aren't playing for kills, you are playing for shortest chase times possible. Maybe your MMR will drop, but you now are learning against different people, hopefully less skilled players, so you can climb that ladder of skill/gamesense/knowledge without being forced to skip a bunch of rungs.
Think of it this way. I can facecamp as Bubba and consistently get minimum 2 kills, maybe 3 or 4. That means my MMR is increasing all the while. In theory I will eventually go against too many people strictly better than me, and I will get less kills. Since I never learned how to properly play the game, and was reliant on the shortcut of facecamping, I never had to learn how to chase, or manage the macro of the game. Since MMR doesn't test all the skill needed, you can 'improve' without having any more skill. In this case you want to not care if you tank your MMR, because you want to minimize crutches whenever possible. I personally still use the crutch of Lethal Pursuer, because I know the start of the match is often the most impactful rippling out. I can ease up off the gas when I get a solid start, to try strange or different strats, because I bought myself that time in the match.
A final alternative is to talk to yourself as you play, and announce the better strat while purposely trying a different one. That way if it fails, you know you could have won if you just did the other thing, but you get to test something new without feeling the loss as harshly. If the survivors teabag at the end, you know you let them go because you wanted to try the fun risky play, instead of the boring safe one. That helps lessen if not entirely remove the impact.
That is all I can say in general without getting into more detailed perk or map or killer specifics. For a random example Pig on Borgo. Don't be afraid to bloodlust the pallets instead of kicking them. The new 15s bloodlust kicks in fast enough that it feels like that map was designed for you to bloodlust instead of kick. Only after you down the person you clean up the few dropped pallets near you.
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@Hannacia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392440#Comment_3392440
I mean to be hooonest... if im 100% honest here this new DH change will actually give me a reason to tunnel
If i hit the person off the hook they get endurance effect and they can't use their DH. Makes more reason to tunnel them so they can't use it right.
Not saying i will im just saying NOTHING changed. This update is really survivor sided, and as much as i love the medkit change i don't think CoH should have been 100% again. Survivors will just use we'll make it anyways so nothing changes. People will be healed fast and killers will struggle at higher MMR, now with worse perks.
Billy buff is nice. He deserves it. I think i will take a break from killer side.
To be fair you can currently hard tunnel people to deny DH anyways since they made the absurd decision to have anti-tunnel endurance put you in Deep Wound. Nothing is changing on that front. It will make the first chase easier however.
People may heal fast, (16 survivor seconds 8 real / compared to 21.33 survivor seconds 21.33 real) but that requires 2 survivors in one spot for that to happen now. That means if I hop in and interrupt the heal, I can keep 2 people off of gens at one time. This also doesn't take into account the raw travel time of both survivors, and a delay for someone to notice someone in a CoH aura. This likely will take more than 6 survivor seconds, more than making up the difference in effects. Heck, even if both survivors are running directly at each other, it takes an extra ~24m of movement to take longer than before. If they were only running 24m then you can easily chase them down, and if they are running further, then it is taking more total time anyways. To me that seems like a win-win in favor of killer.
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@DBDVulture said:
"Actually penalize tunneling and camping"
How do you plan to prevent survivors tunneling generators?
The problem with your post is that you want to eradicate killer tunneling and have no idea that survivor tunneling exists or is even a problem.
I'll let you in on a secret. When playing Killer I tunnel because the survivors tunnel my gens.
You actually want to promote survivors to 'tunnel' gens. When I force the survivors off of the same gen with yet another free hit, (since they dropped the closest pallet in 3 directions I'm not approaching from) they want to commit and finish that gen. They are falling prey to sunk-cost fallacy, and I can capitalize on their mistake. This also makes directed gen regression even more valuable, as Pop can decimate the gen and make them want to finish it in spite of how bad of an idea that is. This is promoting positive risky and potentially rewarding gameplay for both sides. It is risky for me to not protect the other gens, it is risky for survivors to take free damage for a gen they can come back to much later.
If that wasn't the 'gen tunneling' being referred to, then I'll give an example of another type of 'gen tunneling'. When survivors group up to finish a specific gen quickly, I get far more value displacing them as when I chase someone off the gen, I get 2/3/4 people no longer progressing gens for the cost of 1 chase. Also if I balance my build accordingly I can have Discordance to tell me when they are co-oping gens, or Nowhere to Hide to get a free hit on the person who hid while the other person ran off.
In every circumstance of 'gen tunneling', it benefits the killer if they have skill. I love it when people gen-tunnel when I play Nemmy, because it will give my Zombies extra pressure and value due to my use of Discordance. I love it when I get to pop the same gen 5+ times, because the survivors are too stubborn to give up on a lost cause. I love it when people group up on gens so I get multiple quick STBFL hits and/or avoid the Obsession if need be. They might get the best of me occasionally, but the majority of the time, I can come out on top because I can adjust and take advantage of their missteps.
It's also important to think of gens and gates as the killer's health bar. You can try to heal in the corner, or kill your enemies before they hurt you enough. A solid regression here and there is nice, but unreliable. I need to rely on my ability to down the Survivor before they down my gens. The only time I can't truly think I have a chance is on Borgo, Cowshed, and Garden of Pain. That doesn't mean I haven't won on those maps, just that they are too safe in comparison to their peers. Springfield is a mixed bag, because a school basement is tantamount to a free-win, but the rest of the map is torture. Similar with new Haddonfield, the windows are too juicy, but the main building 3-gen is disgusting. Bad maps should have their problems fixed, not rely on perks to band-aid them.
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@mustdogen said:
Title.
truely why?
You can play so badly in a solo team and still finish 4 gens in 5mins Consistently nearly every game.
And killer can't really do anything.
Like....how can people still complain about solo exp in such a unbalance meta?
How poorly you should play to lose as a survivor right now?
And if you or your teammate really play that kind of poorly,why should not you lose?
If we really balance the game for that kind of player that could make solo feel like hell in this patch.
How could nomarl player win as a killer when they face normal survivor?
player should improve themself or lose so mmr can do it's work,not letting normal player unplayable.
Solo game in real world:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyAisREC8Bs
By the way,killer not only try to tunnel but also already bring 3 slow down perks which i don't even notice it exist.
LOL
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/OWOP56ABU0C2/20230405122157-1.jpg
Seeing killer's "Meta" perk being more and more useless is so pathetic.
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edit:
i don't want to show too many video of mine, it is not the point.
But i guess 1 video can't prove nothing for some of you.
So i randomly choose 2 of my video that i don't check what is inside.
let's see my solo exp
It's when you see the 0-hook Mikaela crouching in the corner while you dangle on death hook, or when you see 3 empty symbols while the killer is chasing you, or you see the totem symbol followed by silence (no boon or hex), or the person clearly farming MoM stacks but getting slugged under your current or future hook to do, or the 5th Nurse/Blight match in a row causing one of your teammates to DC/not even try from the start.
If the killer kill rates are roughly 60%, and SWF noticeably perform better than solo, that means it might be closer to 70% for solo and 50% for SWF kill rates, or even larger of a difference.
Also when people say solo is hell, it is based on what they are comparing it to. If I compare soloq to killer, I know when I play killer every loss is a fault of my own, and I can rewatch the vod for places to improve. If I compare soloq to SWF, I know I can tell them the killer is facecamping, so they can coordinate a 55-59s hook trade, compared to the soloq 2 slugged people under hook.
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@DBDVulture said:
We're cancelling the nerf to these perks by ~70% right?
The healing changes felt "gross" so you're leaving killers with some sort of generator defense - right?
Nobody is going to even consider using these perks if you nerf their effectiveness by 70% or more.
Healing/injuries are a basekit mechanic, killer perk's equivalent is survivor's perks. CoH and DH are butchered (rightfully so), as CoB and OC are heavily nerfed. I wouldn't even say the killer perks are butchered, because the unique facets of them still stand (Intel for CoB, Skillcheck for OC, albeit at 14% instead of 15%), unlike CoH which lost self-healing, and DH which has a hard cap of 2 uses per match (unless I misunderstood the proposed change).
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@smartemarte said:
Maybe when its 4 SWF that play constantly it is hard for most killers(other than blight and nurse) but i'm sick and tired of how bad the matchmaking system is for solo survivors
I've just played a game vs a Wesker and not 1 gen got done because all 3 of my team mates were running around like headless chickens, first down within 30 seconds and they didn't even attempt to do a generator and I had to go and save them because there is 0 point in getting a single gen done when I know the game is over before it even started.
One survivor opened a chest right infront of the killer and the other 2 just sat in a corner behind a rock ... there is absolutely no way that I am the same MMR as these people, every single match is a complete coin flip if i'm going to get survivors around the same skill level and I might have a chance of escaping or i'm matched with complete beginners and it's a waste of 10/15 minutes....
I use Dead hard, Decisive every game not because DH is broken but because it's the only way to stop killers tunnelling you and it's only going to get worse if you can't use it in the first chase now. (wait to see how many more disconnects you get when people go down within 30 seconds)
First off, remember that it is escape based matchmaking, not skill based matchmaking. Since the design is hoping it took skill to escape, the current MMR is horrifically flawed.
Secondly, I do think this is mostly a case of recency bias, as well as negativity bias. The lows sting more than the highs give you a rush. If you recorded the past 5 matches then you might find better results than taking 1 match in a vacuum.
Third, despite the incentive being 100% survivor, I've found you often get better matches when you queue as the opposite of the current incentive. For whatever reason, I get brainlets as teammates at 100% surv, and god-tier loopers when I play surv at 100% killer incentive. (An exaggeration sure, but still more true than not.) If BP isn't a concern, queue in the opposite role for a match or two and test that out.
Finally, sadly yes tunneling is a core design flaw that still has no basekit method of being addressed. As long as you queue worried about being tunneled, it will hurt more when you or someone else is tunneled in a match. Try to go in the match with a non-standard goal like a tome, or longest time in chase. Use a perk randomizer to go in with the goal of getting value with as many perks as possible. Killer is the only role where your success is entirely dependent on you, so if you hate being let down by teammates or annoyed by the opposing killer's choices/action, queue as killer instead.
Just remember, its a party game. Goofing around is your best chance to have fun.
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@Technature said:
If the killer is going to camp no matter what, then having the hook timer just means they're going to stand on top of that person longer. The amount of time is already high enough that if everyone slams gens and leaves, the killer still only gets 1 kill. The only reason killer gets more in this situation is because everyone is too stupid to actually do that, and now the second person is on the hook, and now the other two can't possibly do the gens before the second person dies because everyone is sitting around waiting for an opening someone else is going to provide that never comes.
With the healing numbers increased, killers that AREN'T hell bent on camping someone to death won't feel like they need to do so to stand a chance. They know either time is going to be taken from generators, or that person is going to risk going down in a single hit. And honestly for every second I think on this, the more it looks like it's going to be just fine.
1 kill facecamp - With a tuned build and strategy (perks only killer side, no juicy killer add-ons, no juicy toolboxes survivor side) the most common outcome currently is 3 kills, not only 1. (Sadly part of the trick of facecamping is making people think there is a chance at rescuing, which often can get everyone off gens. When they know there is no chance, they tend to not try.) It was 2 before the gen time increase, but that gave an extra 50 total gen seconds which affords most empowered facecamping killers the new 3. That is true most people throw to have fun, and that is a core design problem. If the least fun action is the game winning action, matchmaking won't be accurate.
People claimed killers will (camp and) tunnel less with 6.1.0 extra gen timers and basekit killer buffs, but in my soloq matches tunneling on average increased up to twice as much. (Moreso since they nerfed the only real disincentive for tunneling though tbf.) When bad players get an easy out they take it. The killers that didn't rely on camping and tunneling are the group that you are talking about. Sadly the ones reliant on camping and tunneling are going to get a buffed version of camping, and since they never stretched their muscles to try to win by not camping, they will continue to camp with even greater rewards. If hook timers are adjusted to keep things in proportion to one another (or even further to penalize camping), then there won't be any unintended buffs to an already existing problem.
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@Technature said:
"I play both sides" isn't a counter to "my preferred side is getting nerf and the other isn't".
Literally every nerf affects a perk that contributes to the "Dual Fortress" thing that's been going on in the game, with Dead Hard being the only real exception. This includes every killer perk which all help to make 3 genning easier.
Healing and hooks are not directly related. One thing being more difficult does not necessitate the other also being more difficult.
That is technically correct, however my preferred side is Killer, so that's why it is incorrect. (I hate relying on other people. When my failure is mine alone I can learn from it, not because a Mikaela/Feng is afk in basement, or mentally afk irl.) I just have enough foresight to see sweatier matches because casuals will find the game unplayable. The game is its least enjoyable form when both sides sweat.
The perk nerfs are coinciding with one another, and that I have no problem with. (Other than the DH change incentivizing tunneling. Just give it endurance only against (non-instadown)* special attacks. That way M1 killers (and chainsaws)* are safe, and Nurse/Blight get impacted fairly. *I don't know if they can programmatically add in that clause, but if they can then they should.)
The timers of everything affect one another directly or indirectly. Slugging got an unintended buff if the heal changes goes through unaltered, because it uses double heal timer instead of its own timer. The facecamp hook trade timer is based around sending 2 healthy survivors to unhook and one to trade. This takes 32s (40s Mangled) live to dual heal, 48s (60s Mangled) proposed. The live version allows for the travel time needed for those hook trades, and the proposed doesn't. If the change is going through without thinking of everything, then there will be further incentive for facecamping. The point of nerfing 'Dual Fortress' as you put it, is to nerf non-interaction. Buffing facecamping further incentivizes non-interaction, which is the opposite of the intended goal. Altering hook timers alongside heal timers (and gen timers before) is the smart move. As killer I plan around people getting off of hooks, that helps me win. Keeping people on hooks doesn't help me. If I get to re-99 my Ghostie stalk on that person sooner, they will never truly be safe, which is how I win.
Edit: It is also important to note, I don't care to increase or decrease the raw number of hooks on maps, nor the wiggle timer, only the timer to advance a stage from sitting on hook.
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@Technature said:
I love that saying "Don't insult me" also means "I agree with everything you said".
How convenient for you.
Also yes, you did. You implied I'm so bad at the game I can't get a single hit in. And you're insulting my intelligence by implying you didn't.
This still comes down in the end to "My side got nerfed and I'm ignoring the fact that the other side got nerfed too".
I had no clue that was a real Clown gameplay, as I thought it was a theoretical exaggeration. I played along with the theoretical with my own theory. That had nothing to do with the main points I was making, thus I assumed you had nothing to refute in regards to them, therefore agreeing.
The "my side got nerfed" aspect doesn't even fit, as I play both sides (killer moreso because soloq teammates make me hate life). Even then, Problem perks for both sides are proposed to be fixed. Healing is a baseline mechanic, with no corresponding baseline mechanic (such as hook timers) to go in line with it to roughly even things out to keep the same desired circumstances unchanged (dual heal then go for rescue).
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3386886#Comment_3386886
You make less sense with every post. Even if someone would still use DBDstats (which isn't used and there is nothing like it as AFAIK the anticheat of the game would detect it and ban you, as it literally works as any hack by reading the memory of the game) you still need to be the one using it, so it shows your stats in app or upload it to some page.
Other games that have full stat pages with usernames included is because the game has an official API from where to get this data, or people have "hacked" the official API used to access the official stats servers and used it to create a database with all that info. It didn't happened with DbD because DbD don't have any kind of API, public or "private but exposed", for people to use or hack. That's why every DbD stats page works by volunteer user input, like Nightlight.gg that uses image recognition to read your match results screenshots to build it's database.
Either way, no body is talking about having available any stat outside of the game, or for BHVR to do an API to being able to access that data outside of the game, or for even show any stat in game that isn't your MMR (even if it would be nice).
People want to see their MMR in game as I and my rivals can see that I have the "Mighty Ruler" rank in Tekken 7 or are "Silver" rank in Overwatch. Nothing more, nothing else.
I don't see how I'm making less sense. When DBDstats was up, you could see information that wasn't even visible ingame, such as how many times you qualified for main building gen and escape achievements, Huntress snipes, and more. That means an open steam profile allows for more information than is visible to the players. I am unsure how they would show MMR without this also being visible online.
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You go on hook my guy. I brought Lethal on a Killer without mobility, and it isn't my fault you aren't there. Your team needs to be mad at you also, so you feel bad enough that you won't let it happen again. I hate when my teammates do the same to me when I play Surv, so I don't go afk when I'm starting a match.
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I won't play Survivor, even with friends on the weekends, even with 100% incentive. It sucks queue times for Killer are gunna skyrocket, but that's the only enjoyable avenue left. 6.1.0 nerfs based on popularity were a joke, since they didn't think about why they were popular. Slowdown was popular because it was slowdown, anti-tunnel was popular because it was anti-tunnel. Sadly we got worse versions of both with 6.1.0. We got 3gen degen defen, and we got all anti-tunnel on Deep Wounding endurance.
I won't mourn COH and DH, as I won't mourn COB and OC. I can't fathom selfish healing getting buffed (on medkits) in the patch planning on nerfing it though. I also can't fathom buffing Nurse while nerfing Billy. I also can't fathom this massive buff to add 30s on blindness addons or 1.5s of killer instinct (/s). The patch is out of touch with the problems, which means the 'solutions' become problems.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3386794#Comment_3386794
Who talked about "showing it in outside sites against your will"? They should be shown in game. Also, all the sites of stats we have right now are based on user input, as there is no API to access official data. So, it won't be shown against your will as we won't have those stats right now if it wasn't for willing people uploading them.
Don't having an "unranked" queue have nothing to do with it. In fact, many games also shows your ranked rating in those unraked modes.
And again, you do you. I and many people want to know their actual MMR as that is how the game evaluate us. Having it shown won't prevent you from keep opening your notepad and keep your own record.
No I mean people will use those sites to look up people in their lobby, and back out saying "oh you are bad I'm out". The DBDstats sourcecode was still available last I was aware, just no site is utilizing it (that I know of). People already do that looking up in Riot's games, (League and Valorant) and I abandoned that sinking ship long ago. I don't want this game to take the bad of any other game.
Again I am fine with personal stats being available, just as long as it requires you to be logged-in to the game to check, and no one else is made aware of your stats.
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I think the only 2 who need a buff are Balanced Landing and Smash Hit. I agree with perma passive stagger prevention for Balanced. I think Smash Hit should provide endurance while dropping pallets, and if you get the endurance proc or the stun proc it consumes the exhaustion. (With lag this might need the stun to only give a speed boost at the end of the animation, not when the stun is read.)
As far as Dead Hard I think a fair version of it is Special Attack Endurance only. That way if you want to bring something to counter the Oppressive Killers it can help you there, but it won't help against a Legion or Myers or Clown. The M1 killers would partially get help in the area they need most, balancing them with the busted killers. Technically this change wouldn't help against Spirit, or Artist with a zoned M1, but at least most of the Special Attacks would be addressed.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3385190#Comment_3385190
Everybody have an MMR. We are rated and matched against other taking in count our MMR. We want to know our MMR, and I'm pretty sure OP was refering to it too.
Whatever you think your MMR represents or not your "real and current skill" because you made a Bubba drop it's game to make sure you lose yours, it's on you.
I do think matchmaking numbers should be shared in a ranked queue, but not when you aren't expressly signing up for it. Since we don't have 2 queues, ranked and unranked, I think it is a bad idea to show them. Maybe if only you could see your own #, but outside sites don't have access to it (like how currently we have stats available for different killers and main gen completion+escapes).
I think the notepad method is still the best, as you can clearly discount games that shouldn't have counted by your own rules/mindset.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3385168#Comment_3385168
-"Anyone who has played both Killer and soloq surv for at least an hour knows the 10s borrowed time is a joke"
It's a free perk slot base kit. That's not a joke. Literally nobody runs BT anymore because the base kit version is so damn good. Before Base kit BT I immediately punched anyone I was able to right after an unhook - because why not?
-"I think you don't know how to take advantage of NWO if you think it only provides value against 2 max living survivors."
The door mechanic is a joke. If you don't have NWO then the gates are 99% completed ~20 seconds after the last generator pops. NWO doesn't really let you pressure most good survivors because things like DH, Adrenaline, Deliverance and Unbreakable still exist. Post patch 3/4 will still be a huge counter to NWO. That does not even consider things like insta heals or for the PePo.
-"all balanced slowdown are win more perks, as pop was before"
Pop was an extremely healthy perk for the game. In no way was it a "win more" perk except vs top tier players who are basically playing at comp level. On average with Pop I could kick gens 6-9 times and increase the survivor objective by 2-3 minutes. I didn't need to tunnel one person out every game - but now playing the same level of people I do. When you get to the point where you're playing comp level survivors like Hens and his crew - nothing short of Nurse/Blight with best perks and addons are going to win so it becomes a moot point.
The point is that Pop was the only gen defense I used for the most part and it was preventing the gen rush to hold my 3 gen setup. When I played Trapper I used to run Pop+Agi+ Pain Res and that absolutely obliterated generator progress.
Compare old Pop to something like Dying Light. By the time you get any meaningful slowdown with DL the game is basically over. That is the absolute best example of a win more perk in DBD. I can't even begin to count how many times Pop turned a 97% generator into a 77% generator and then that gen went all the way down to zero for one reason or another.
-"Also you say 'delays the inevitable' as though Killer isn't designed to win chases"
Pig, Trapper, and most of the low tier cast are not designed to win chases. They are relics of a by gone era.
Nurse and Blight are designed to win chases. Nurse and Blight are so far removed from all the other killers that people lose sight of just how bad everything else is that people actually play at high MMR. I have a friend who plays at comp level who told me he has not seen a trapper in 2 years.
Map design is a huge problem but so is killer design. Every killer needs to have Mobility, Lethality, Anti loop, 4v1 and some degree of detection. Those are the 5 killer traits and to be honest the first three outweigh everything else by a huge margin. Detection is meh when you do everything else well. And of course tunneling happens because otherwise you can't pressure 4 players because fewer than 5 killers have 4v1 worth talking about. Oh and by the way - 2 of those killers are Nurse and Blight who have 4v1 because they can start their second chase after hooking one player before a lot of the "weak" cast members even finish their first chase.
BT: The effects are a joke when even a slight effort towards tunneling is put forward. Also I run the perk BT frequently for the purpose of endgame saves.
NWO: Leveraging time pressure is the main facet of Killer skill. If a solid minute isn't anything important to you, then I don't think you understand that.
Pop/Comp: 99% of matches are not against comp level Survivors, the MMR isn't consistent enough and the quantity of players at that level is too small. You don't need to tunnel people out of the current iteration of the game either (Unless you are in a tournament using every advantage available). It is copium to believe otherwise. I call Pop a win more perk, because you only get regression if you are good enough to get a hook. That requires winning. Setting back gen timers puts your win con closer, and the Surv's further, making you win more.
Designed to win chases: OP killers are OP, newsflash: water is wet (or technically makes things wet, but you get the saying). As far as Pig, she is designed to win through slowdown. If she didn't win through slowdown, her raw kill numbers would be below 25% (the facecamp and hard tunnel someone from the onset number, which even then requires you to get a down in the first place). The Survs are forced to search 12 boxes basekit if you place the traps on their head. Even if they comp drop on Borgo, your best chance is to Mindgame/Bloodlust the short pallet loop (just because there are too many pallets altogether on that map). Trapper is designed to win chases by ending them short by surprise. If someone runs around a structure and steps into a trap, they are downed if you can get to them. Just because you haven't practiced how to utilize kits, doesn't mean they aren't designed to advance the objective of killing survivors before they escape.
Nurse and Blight bruteforce chase mechanics, to deny options. You can't hold W at this loop against Blight because he has another rush. Knowing how to use that lack of options is what makes killers strong. If you 99 3 survs as Ghostie, you deny them safety anywhere on the map, and if you sneak up on them you get a free down. If you let them take hits on the way to hook to drop their marks, they can negate that advantage in the long-run at the cost of the short run. I would say not every killer needs every mechanic, as then we will get 20 reskinned Weskers. Using the tools at your disposal properly is the key to victory. Bruteforcing lethality+mobility to me is the least engaging type of play, which is what Blight and Nurse sadly excel at.
Tunneling happens when you doubt your skill to win without using ez-mode shortcuts. When you win without tunneling, your MMR in theory will get you closer games to what you deserve. (Again MMR is massively flawed, but theoretically working around whatever matchmaking number is assigned.) When you win by facecamping as Bubba, you gain none of the skills, and can get looped for 5 gens from the start of the game. Whether you shortcut victories through camping or tunneling, you fail to build the muscle needed to beat survivors in chase, or in the macro of the game.
@Technature said:
"Also if you are a Clown unable to get a hit on The Game, unironically skill dif git gud."
Please keep shoving words into my mouth.
I said bragging that you beat Clown on The Game isn't something any sane person should be doing, not "Her der I'm so bad I can't hit tha person. DERP!".
I didn't shove words in your mouth. I was implying that if that example theoretical Clown was never able to get a hit, they clearly only showed up for a daily or a tome. That however is also covered by the part where I mentioned I might have more Clown hours than most. Also if you have to address my joking parenthetical aside, as opposed to my main points, then I would have to assume you agreed with everything else I said above it. In that case I'm glad we agree!