mizark3
mizark3
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@Witchubtet said:
*Throws Nurse out of this Conversation* there, don’t bring her up.
This post is about Trapper, Wrath, Billy, Hag, Myers, Huntress, and Freddy. All these killers I believe need a little extra power to their kits. Letting them match up to more modern powers. These are just ideas so don’t take them 100% at face value.
Trapper: start him off with 3 traps and have 15 second timers for his other ones to spawn in his inventory. This will help his set up but keep him from instantly 3 genning. Also, when a trap is triggered give him haste +5% for a few seconds. This discourages traps being triggered as he is chasing. Again there can be improvements on these ideas.
Wrath: Shadow Step, allow him to set up dark ‘portals’ to teleport through. I suggest only two and they must be a decent ways from objects 20 meters for doors 16 from gen and hooks. Yes he has high movement but giving him an easy map traversal would increase his pressure. A down side is you uncloak as you leave the portal.
Billy: This one is a hard one, but I think he should gain some sort of interaction when he misses a hit and smacks into a wall. Not a tantrum but something. I’d like to see what you think.
Hag: Slight speed burst upon exiting your traps would help. Kinda like Wrath exiting his cloak. Or a new “Curse” option when you down survivors. Cursing them causes their aura reading to be disabled after being unhooked for 30-45 seconds. Could work well.
Myers: These sounds dumb but perhaps making it so he breaks pallets dropped on him when he stalks. Of course still stunning him. This boosts T1 and T2 but doesn’t help T3.
Huntress: Take her Iridescent that gives her movement speed with no hatchets and make it Basekit. She goes from a 110 to a 115. A small boost. We could also think about fixing some of the hatchet flight speeds and arches.
Freddy: His power is Fine but I think his add-ons Need a huge update to make them better. Currently he has like 6 that are worthless in the long run. Also giving him more Snares for each completed generator would be nice. Since he loses his teleport over time.
Trapper: I don't think traps should spawn in his inventory, I like the locker reload many others have mentioned. I would adjust the haste idea to give a stacking 1% haste/second that you move towards a trapped Surv in say a 90 degree cone, lingering for 5s once going in a different direction or trap escape. If you start heading back towards a Trapped Surv within the 5s it continues to stack. This could be used to meme in customs, allowing you to accelerate to two opposite sides of the map towards Survs purposely waiting in your traps. Just to account for cheese though I would have it reset to 0 on a successful attack or trap grab.
Wraith: I think he is in a fine spot at the moment. If he is underperforming they could revert his most recent rework nerfs, or partially revert them.
Billy: I'd argue for an adjustment + partial basekitting of Lo-Pro chains. If we consider Healthy -> Injured -> Deep Wound -> Dying (slugged) as the health states. I'd say the basekit version deals 1 health state of damage (so Injured to Deep Wound), and the add-on does 2 health states of damage (Injured to Dying, or Healthy to Deep Wounded).
Hag: Honestly I think she is fine atm.
Myers: Before Singularity I'd say basekit Spirit Fury would be OP, but they did it well with It. I don't think Stalking is the right time however, as you could always tap M2 right before touching the pallet zone. Arguably that might be a fine T3 power bonus, maybe with an addon. Another more bold move would be starting Myers in T2 altogether. Scratched Mirror would give a movement speed slowdown and vault speed nerf to match the current T1 values instead, and arguably buff it from 4.2->4.3.
Huntress: She is fine atm. The Iri add-on you are talking about could be buffed to provide a percentage haste boost based on current used divided by max holdable hatchets. That way if you have 1 used with the instadown add-on it works the same with a 5% (technically 4.5%) haste. If you have 7 hatchets with the purple addon and threw 4 of them, you get 4/7ths of that 4.5% haste boost.
Freddy: Make his power like Clown's, you can toggle between snares and pallets basekit. If we wanted to keep the charges the same, snares could take 3 charges, pallets take 2 charges, and you start with 15 charges total. That way the current 7 pallets are still possible, and the current 5 snares are still possible, with some math done for the mix and match combos. I like the extra power usage on gen completions, as long as it doesn't become the next 3-gen defender.
Ones you didn't list that I have some ideas for anyways.
Doctor: I would say Doc needs some love, and one Doc main suggested boosting his TR. I don't know if they can basekit a calm add-on that boosts TR while the blast is ready, and shrink it when on CD, but that would be super cool if possible.
Deathslinger: I would go as far as combining the 2 movement speed while ADS addons, as well as combining the 2 shrunk TR while ADS addons, and make 2 new addons for him. One idea would be make him move at a full 4.6 while his spear is unloaded, similar to the huntress Iri addon. I would be crazy enough to make a new add-on that insta-breaks the chain and Deep-Wounds on hit, at the cost of a longer stun. (Maybe programmatically being the inverse of the longer chain duration add-on.) This would offer a new playstyle not based around reeling, and the (1s?) longer stun would be to partially account for how long it normally would take to break the chain, without being strictly worse.
Clown: 1 extra basekit bottle, 1 fewer bottle with Iri add-on (to keep the ratios the same). I also did a larger write-up a while ago on a variety of different ideas for the specific add-ons.
Demo: 2 new basekit portals that are blockable (instead of breakable) for 1 minute, but permanent map features. 1 at shack, 1 at main. Any map without shack/main would have 2 spots fixed instead.
Legion: Revert the needless Thana nerf back to 5% per Surv. Yeah this isn't exclusive to Legion, but it might as well be basekit on Legion. Arguably even give them a basekit mini Thana only when soloing gens (outside of TR while injured?). (Arguably also only when all Survs are alive, so as not to encourage turbo-tunneling someone out.)
Personally I would also nerf the top 5/10 as well, which I also detailed in another post previously. Quick ones I remember are Blight and Artist becoming 4.4 killers (Blight Rush still being 9.2), the Nurse nerfs which already happened mostly, and add-on nerfs.
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@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3441470#Comment_3441470
Gonna have to agree to disagree. If what you said was true, the kill rate on blight would be well above 60%.
Since I already explained low MMR (predominantly new players) all I need to explain is high MMR. Since MMR will prefer more closely ranked matches (eg. 1900 2000 2100 2200 vs 1800 2200 2600 3000 each would go against the sequential preference) there is a tendency of the sweatiest to go against the sweatiest. In this case, there will be the increased incidence of BNP inflated MMR (among others) and would thus make the match overall sweatier in general. That 2200 Blight will go against the 3000 SWF, while the 1900 Clown would go against the 1800 soloq.
Also matchmaking is roughly balanced around that 60% marker, as you mentioned, and most skill-based matchmaking systems set you up for failure when on a hot streak. DBD hasn't explicitly stated it uses that type of system, but it is an industry standard in gaming. Essentially if you get too far from the expectation, it will send you to fight harder matches (higher elo/mmr opponents in relation to you). There is also what I think is a conspiracy theory, but it might be true, and that is the game will send you to unfavorable maps on hot streaks too. I think someone in a twitch stream said that a dev said it, but I can't find the original dev quote so I'm leaving this in conspiracy level 'maybe'.
Even if you take the matchmaking system on its face, there are glaring flaws with such mismatched killers. This is most evident when playing at off-hours. It will give you any match that can be found in your region, so if a 1900 v 3000 match is the only match available, it sends you in. I have an irregular schedule, so more of my matches than not are on what is normally considered 'off-hours'. Blight is free wins for days at a time with that, but I actually have to try as C/D tier killers for a 'positive K/E', making them the only ones fun for me. Now theoretically should someone be at such an extreme of MMR (from the combination of skill, tactics, and tools) like whoever got the bajillion win streak as Blight, it is evident how imbalanced the best killer(s) and best survivors are in normal matchmaking.
The foundation of my argument here is that MMR is derived from that parenthetical 3 items above: skill, tactics, and tools. A killer pick alone (such as Blight) provides so much of the heft in that MMR rating, that they are actually less skilled than their opponents, due to being carried by tools. The Blight stream streak also included tactics more heavily into the equation, as I believe the streamer abused the average psychology of players as well as intentionally tunneling off hook immediately.
TL:DR a 1900 MMR Blight and 1900 MMR Clown have their 1900 built up differently, from we'll say 500 Skill, 400 Tactics, 1000 Tools for the Blight, and 1000 Skill, 500 Tactics, 400 Tools being factored in. The effectiveness floor is the tools value in the equation essentially.
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I'd say either revert the nerf and set it back to 5s stun or give a different benefit. It could have 5s per gen remaining of disabling the Killer's power (and setting them to 0 charges/ammo, no reload or recharge possible until after the timer runs out. That way it impacts (nearly) all killers equally. It could also apply every unhook like others have mentioned.
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At least show the ping of all players in the lobby, That way you can make the decision to play in it or not, without making the actual match miserable.
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@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3441262#Comment_3441262
Stupid how? He has the highest skill ceiling of any killer. If you can’t use his rushes successfully, it punishes you more than it helps. Baby blights get bullied all the time.
People love bringing up the skill ceiling, but always disregard the effectiveness floor. Even when I was learning Blight, I was easily getting 4ks (or 3k+hatch) that weren't deserved. Honestly I get frustrated playing Blight, because nearly any Survivor without a minimum of 1k hours is basically dead on arrival in the match, and the matchmaking isn't good enough to prevent newer players from going against that. Heck, bringing a Blight pick alone (regardless of add-ons) is almost like everyone bringing a BNP, then the add-ons are the equivalent of everyone bringing Meta perks designed to fight him on top of that.
The only time Blights are failing, is when the player lacks general gamesense/skill/perks, as using Blight's power strictly for mobility can still win games alone. They hear that Blight is a free-win killer, but they also don't know what the spacebar does. No one at that level of skill is winning a normal match. That's the only reason 'baby-Blights' get bullied, and it's the same issue with baby-Nurses. That doesn't negate the overwhelming power of their kits.
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@Patokiller said:
What´s the point? You are a killer, you hit a survivor, you made your goal, what do you get? 2% penalty to gens speed.
You are a survivor, you get hit, you failed... Tha killer got you... You are punished? No... Take this 9% against my 2%...
If the killer hit all four survivors you have 20% (8 + 12 bonus), if all four survivors get wounded what they get? 9% FOR EACH ONE! Total: 36%, if survivors have a Prove Thyself bonus increase to 15%.
I´m not including all other gens speed perks or Brand New Parts and toolboxes.
It´s not fair.
While I agree that Thana should be have its nerf reverted (back to 5% per injured Surv), you have the math wrong here for your assertions. If you want to claim Resilience gives 36% (9% each), you also need to acknowledge Thana is giving 80% (20% each). Similarly if you want to make the claim risky/loss perks shouldn't exist, does that mean Deadlock and NOED need to be deleted alongside Resil?
Resilience is fine since it encourages a risk alongside a reward. The only problem I have with it is 99%ing heals. That could be fixed by Resilience only giving the bonus based on how filled the heal bar is. You get 9% at 0% healed, 4.5% at 50% healed, and 0.1% at 99.9% healed.
Edit: Also with Prove Thyself it isn't a true 15% speed boost, it is a partial negation of a basekit slowdown. Normally you get penalized an additive 15% per other Surv on the gen. That means 2 work at 85% speed, 3 work at 70% speed, and 4 at 55% speed. Prove Thyself gives a multiplicitive 15% per other Surv on the gen. This means 85% is multiplied by 1.15 to 97.75%, 70% is multiplied by 1.3 to 91%, and 55% is multiplied by 1.45 to 79.75%. In each case, you still work slower than soloing gens, and preventing the killer from getting pressure on multiple Survivors by disrupting a single gen. The only time this is truly meaningful is a final 3gen with 2 people poking each side. This makes the ~53s gen take ~46s instead. A mere 7s. Heck, a brown Toolbox gives 8s of gen time. So that means a Brown Toolbox saves more time than PT in the majority of cases.
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Swamp and Yamaoka are my favorite maps for both sides. They typically are the most fair for both sides regardless of the killer selected. They have enough clutter to make playing against Nurse/Blight possible, as well as hide as stealth killers, enough grass to make Trapper playable, enough map resources to delay chases (usually). They are great well rounded maps that don't allow the busted killers to get free wins from the killer selection screen.
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@Ithiria said:
Given that you instantly die when you fail two, I think hook suicides is intended and unlikely to go.
*Don't attempt 2, you can fail more as long as you hit the check too early. That could be solved by making it a press and hold to hook suicide.
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@Skill_issue said:
survivors tunnel gens as killers tunnel survivors to gain an advantage. if a killer tunnels a killer to make the game a 3 vs 1 it is seen as bad (the whole killers should go for hooks not kills mentality)...yet survivors dont finish a gen halfway leave and go work on another gen unless they are chased off.
killers proximity camping a survivor (especially when the other survivors are injured or there are gens nearby that are regressing/can be patrolled) or in the rare case of a killer having two survivors on a hook close to each other...why would the killer leave to go find another survivor? it makes no logical sense...if two survivors proximity camp a gen (1 leading the killer on a chase so the 2nd can loop back and finish the gen) why is it seen as bad for the killer p.o.v. but not from the survivor p.o.v. when it is the exact same scenario?
both surivors and killer are trying to do their objectives as efficiently as possible especially as their mmr rank rises if they want to get kills or escapes...so why is there such a double standard to camping and tunneling when both sides do it to a degree?
this new ptb patch is going to add a hook escape and perks to make repairing gens even faster so it seems like both objectives from the killer p.o.v. are seen as bad (here is your stick eventually you will get your carrot) so it seems like the developers are fixing the problem for one side.
what are the communities thoughts?
Survivors 'tunneling' gens puts the advantage on the Killer side. They either A. group up to give the killer extra pressure, or B. Give the Killer an easy Regression delivery point and Intel where at least 1 person will always be. With B., back in the Pop+Tinker days, I won all too many games ( I honestly didn't deserve to) because Survivors would refuse to find a safer or different gen. 'Tunneling' gens is the Survivor falling prey to sunk-cost fallacy.
Most killer ended tunnel/camp scenarios brush against agency. There is no agency in being camped, or being tunneled in certain deadzones. No matter what you do on hook, in the camping scenario an extra hook state will be juiced. Even worse, you see your soloq Surv teammates doing the worst thing imaginable, a 61s rescue (the second after you hit 2nd state on hook, so the killer can turbotunnel you out of the game).
In the case of tunneling, it typically is a deadzone around the hook because the survivor wouldn't have gone down and dropped the pallet if it wasn't. Also many maps are swapping from fair windows to either 1 or 2 God windows and/or 25 unsafe pallets. You can be bloodlusted at those Borgo/Garden pallets, even if the Killer doesn't have a power to shortcut the chase. That basically means every surv is on a 15s-25s timer after getting unhooked, even when they play the best they can (on newer maps).
When a Survivor dies, they can't play the game anymore. When the gens pop, the Killer is still allowed to play, and potentially get that NWO+Blood Warden play. Even if the Killer doesn't have the perks, they can take advantage of the Surv misplays, and maybe get some extra kills out of the match. The game is horribly balanced with 3 players, so it can feel like an exploit to break the game so soon. In a normal killer match, I usually base my strategy around 1/1/1/1, or 1 on hook, 1 in chase/pressured, 1 for rescue/healing after rescue, 1 on gens. If you drop that to 3 players, there is no one to do gens, so it is just waiting for the Killer to win instead. To be fair, if someone AFKed from the start I typically go for risky plays in the 1v3 (as Killer), both to learn more tactics, and to give them a chance to get some BP or otherwise play the game.
Purposely sending a player out of the match can in essence, kind of hold the player hostage in spirit. In a SWF, they aren't playing until the rest of their group dies also. This makes new players (because the new player is dying first more often in a SWF) have to AFK before they are allowed to learn the game again, a horrible experience, which made 2 of my friends (that otherwise would be willing to play) hard quit learning the game. Also even if it isn't a SWF, the Killer's build is hidden until the match is over, (which is never explained in-game, and shouldn't happen in soloq regardless) so if you are learning and want to know how or why the Killer was able to do something, you have to wait.
I agree the problem lies in 'efficiently' playing should be the most fun way to play for everyone. It should be better rewarded to spread the pressure, than focus fire someone out of the game (basekit lesser Grim Embrace that can proc twice, but only if no one is dead). I would go as far as to say soloing gens should be less efficient as well. Healing should be greater incentivized (as both a form of slowdown and BP). Also it should be more punishing to tunnel and camp (only camping was proposed to be nerfed so far with the anti-facecamping measure, even basekit BT backfires as an anti-tunnel mechanism). If a player never did a conspicuous action off of hook, there should be some sort of indicator (maybe glow blue and lose collision) and a tougher time to go for them (maybe built in current perk DS).
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Probably about 25-50% chance of any happening to any player in any given soloq match, (before endgame) so a quarter of that for me specifically. This bumps to 75-95% when narrowing it down to Anon Killer players and what I will call VPN Killers.
VPN Killers being Killer players who are clearly in the wrong region, and are either VPNing to get a lagvantage for sketchy hits, (like Weskers grabbing you around corners/through walls, not just the window/pallet bug) or just to play in a far different region. They aren't limited to camping/tunneling, they more often than not intentionally bleed out (be that the full 4 minutes or the even more scummy 3m59s then hook) and otherwise deliberately try to make the game as annoying or torturous as possible.
If I could view the (steam) profile of the Killer before the game like Killers can view Survivor's, I would instadodge all those Anon/VPN lobbies in soloq (console/other PC platform players are fine though, just Anon and a clear language on the profile that isn't remotely in your area).
As far as when I'm playing Killer, I only intentionally tunnel map offerers (when I can confirm they were the one who offered the map). I might accidentally tunnel someone off hook if everyone else hides and they are the first person I find, but never for the express purpose of targeting the unhooked Surv.
I only camp the final 15s or so if they were clearly genb4fren greeding, and that is the only way I could punish the gen greed. Technically I did do a facecamp 'experiment' where I brought a decked kit with the express purpose of facecamping, to show it is busted, and got an 80% kill rate doing so (~90% if you don't count hatch escapes). That was a long time ago though, after Reassurance got added to show it really didn't prevent the majority of wins from facecamping.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3439107#Comment_3439107
-"Overbuffed compared to Myers - I'd say no. The issue is Ghostie only exposes 1 person from stalking them, with individual stalk bars."
GF can stalk multiple people at once unlike Michael who was able to multistalk on release but got nerfed.
-"Edit: Myers does need love too, but a very simple 24s->20s CD and .2m/s boost to crouch speed is simple enough for Ghostie. Myers needs much more in-depth help."
The devs have said they have no plans to change MM and with that in mind it makes no sense that they would massively overbuff GF. They are franchise killers.
You can only multistalk when people are in poor positioning, and once one of them notices, all of them effectively notice. In no world when Ghostface still comes nowhere close to the likes of the top 5, arguably even the top 10, is this an overbuff. Don't act like a crab in a bucket, bringing others down when they happen to be fortunate. Buffing any lower tier killer is a good thing, and nerfing any higher tier killer is a good thing.
Also I believe the only reason they aren't planning on buffing Myers is because his kill rates are padded by Tombstone addons. Without those carrying his kill rates, he likely would actually get some love. To get him buffed people need to basically tank his kill rates without the addons. They balance more around numbers than the understanding of issues, so if you want that type of change you need to play accordingly. When people ragequit because they misplay as Myers, their DC doesn't show a loss, and BHVRs numbers can't show that either. They need to play out the loss, to do their part in getting him buffed.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/376896/stop-buffing-ghostface
Ghostface doesn't need a power cooldown buff.
He was overbuffed with his last change when you consider Michael. Why does Michael's power last a minute if GF's power does the same? What?
If anything GF probably needs to have like a 40 second expose as the 30 might have been too short but 60 is too long.
Also why does GF have those stupid white line marks when someone looks at him? Remove them.
I'd agree that he doesn't need a CD buff for better players, and it may overtune him for the best Ghostie players. It does make Ghostie a lot more playable for newbies though, which is the majority of Ghosties people will run across. Plus, even if he had a 10s CD, he still can't reach the same levels that any Killer with an actual chase power can reach.
Overbuffed compared to Myers - I'd say no. The issue is Ghostie only exposes 1 person from stalking them, with individual stalk bars. Myers can farm stalk without exposing someone, get the down, and then insta-pop it on someone he never has even seen before. Ghostie at least needs to have 99'd you on an individual level. Also the expose duration was bumped up to 60s from 45s, not 30s.
Reveal warning - This is still important for counterplay. It allows Ghostie to not have his power hard countered by someone just starting to look at him. A good Ghostie will stick near cover so they can dip behind it to prevent the reveal. Also it is super latency based, so kinda like Doctor, not only do you have to learn the power, but also how laggy the Survivor is and will affect it. That requires more skill than most killer powers to pull off successfully, so I don't see why a higher skill expression factor should be removed. He still is stuck along the framework of an M1 killer, so minor intel when you are in the process of being revealed is a decent non-chase aspect to be given. If he could Legion/Myers vault faster in Night Shroud, or throw his knife, then maybe he would need to be tuned down in other areas, but for now you want someone with near nothing to have less.
@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3438470#Comment_3438470
Ghostface needs to be toned down if anything. He shouldn't have an addon that makes stalking 20% faster.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/9TYNLQJYB7HE/image.png
That's not what a brown addon should look like.
Also this is a big nothing burger. It drops a 5s stalk to 4s, and a 2.5s lean stalk to a 2s lean stalk. Saving ~2s every minute or so is exactly the realm of a brown addon. Also in what universe should Ghostie be nerfed before the likes of Nurse/Blight/Spirit/Wesker/Artist/Twins? They all have insane lethality that can bypass most loop designs, but Ghostie still has to play the loop. The only player getting free-downed to a Ghostie is an unaware Survivor, which shouldn't they go down if they were that unaware?
Edit: Myers does need love too, but a very simple 24s->20s CD and .2m/s boost to crouch speed is simple enough for Ghostie. Myers needs much more in-depth help. I'd go as far as removing T1, except with Scratched Mirror, which would nerf vault speeds and movement speed to match its current values, maybe even 4.3 instead of 4.2.
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@JustAnotherNewbie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3438173#Comment_3438173
Those are strategies that are reliable for SWF but unreliable for solo. I'd assume most people complaining about counters such as these, don't play SWF.
Ultimately if playing soloq vs Ghostie, that just means as long as you aren't death hook and you torment the Ghostie by keeping him out of power and chasing him down, your team will win. The onus is on you, and then you can hide/do gens if hooked once or twice. Situational awareness is key to winning on both sides of a Ghostie match.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
I just want them to fix his reveal mechanic.
I understand this complaint, but even with it in its current state people don't realize how to play against him. The best way to play against Trapper/GF/Hag, and even a couple other Killers, is to have 1 person dedicated to harassing the power. If 1 person is always disarming traps, or revealing Ghostie, the Killer is largely powerless, and just an M1 machine. Ghostface has 0 anti-loop whatsoever, so that means just drop the pallet or vault the window, you are safe. He has a loud cloak sound on all skins other than the bugged P2W rift cosmetic (but that might be fixed, I refused to use it out of principle), so you can hear him whenever he is close enough to be a threat. To be fair, for deaf/HoH players I can completely understand disliking Ghostie, as there actually is no counterplay at that point. If he is close enough to hear the cloak flap, he is too close for a gen Surv to reach a pallet/window more often than not if relying on visuals only. The reveal mechanic is also very unintuitive, but not to the extreme of solving Pinhead's box without stray chains hitting you. When you actually understand how it works, it is quite consistent, but without practicing in a KYF, its hard to build the muscle memory on both ends.
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@NoHookDC said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3436446#Comment_3436446
Pretty much this.
- Killers can't camp with the new change.
- Killer's can't tunnel because of basekit BT.
- I bet soon we'll see some sort of anti-slugging perk or change.
- Every Killer needs to have a power that Survivors can counter without needing to think about it. After all, it'd be 'unfair' if Survivors had to think about their perks to counter certain Killers!
- Even with the 10 seconds added to gens; Genrush was untouched, and they just added a new perk to genrush harder.
- Gen regression perks were nerfed, and some Survivors are screaming that gen regression perks should not stack. Because preventing Survivors from winning is 'toxic'.
- NoED is 'toxic' because 'Survivors have basically won already' when 5 gens pop, and should be removed.
Basically, according to Survivors:
- Killers should not win, because being removed from the game 'early' (IE: Before they walk out the exit gates) is 'toxic' and 'a flaw in the game'.
- And they get to decide WHEN they win (IE: When all 5 gens pop). At 5 gens, they have 'basically won' so any end game Killer perks are unfair because 'We already won'.
- Oh yeah, and slugging is 'wasting Survivor's time' but waiting in the exit gates to t-bag when you've already won as Survivor? 'Lol, get thicker skin. It's just hitting crouch'.
- Hitting someone on the hook? It's BM and should be punished with BS like The Killer being teleported away and being stunned for 15 seconds. T-bagging after a pallet save? 'Get thicker skin, Killers!'
- Slugging? Unfair, Survivors should be able to get up on their own. Killers also should not tunnel or 3 gen. Or camp. Or hit people after 5 gens pop. Basically, if it allows a Killer to win; It's unfair and toxic and the game is flawed.
The mentality of Survivors here shows that they are used to getting everything they want. Same with the massive review bombs the 0.%5 of the time Killers get a bone thrown to them; It's Survivors, spoiled on being given everything, losing their minds when someone else gets a gift.
Holy Victim Mentality Batman!
Lets take these one at a time.
Camp - 16m, so this only affect facecamping, which many maps are designed in such a way that you can still pseudo-facecamp at 17m, as that is the closest point to reach the hook. Plus the rate of the unhook bar wasn't even mentioned yet, it could be 10-30s within 1m, we don't know. The only valid complaint here is if it works across floors, which is more a flaw of the maps than this concept.
Tunnel - Killers can't tunnel because they lack the ability to count to the first double digit, and had DS hard deleted (may as well be at least) from the game. As Dr. Evil would put it "Riiiiiight."
Slugging - The timer last mentioned was 45s. Mathematically, even with an Oni downing the entire team, he still has time to hook each of them. So this only counters intentional bleedout or otherwise excessive slugging. Non-issue.
Perk to counter powers - There should be a basekit method of addressing each Killer's power. Would you want to load into a match and auto lose because the Killer picked Billy-the-Kid, and you didn't equip the "bullet proof vest" perk? Might as well quit on the spot if you auto-lose. Luckily that isn't the case, so quitting isn't needed.
10s gens still genrush/Gen Regression nerfed - Usage of the term 'genrush' is a flag for the unironic response 'git gud skill dif'. I had 1 match with 3 BNPs, and that didn't account for the worthless Claudette attempting Flashbang saves (giving free hits in the process, adding healing slowdown), nor the basement diving throwing Surv (visible from aura perks). Heck, I ran 0 gen delay Sadako with STBFL, Nurse's, Sloppy, and Deathbound and won 3/3 matches earlier today. To be fair, I brought Flans, so they might have not sweated as hard, but each match was ultimately won through them getting greedy, and me capitalizing on their unhealed keisters getting snowballed down. Forcing Survivors to react to pressure is the key to victory. If you can't provide pressure, figure out how to. To be fair, if someone predrops every pallet on The Game/Garden of Pain/Borgo, you aren't going to win, although those matches are few and far between (both the maps and the comp dropping combined). Even then, Pop is getting buffed, and Eruption's Regression never got nerfed. Also PR got buffed prior to the 7th hook, and most times someone dies by the 7th hook, so you get the help when you need it most.
NOED/endgame nerfs - Don't know where this is coming from. Personally I wouldn't mind basekitting NOED as long as no one is dead by endgame. Taking the perk would just keep the hex in the event of a pre-endgame death, and maybe shrink the reveal radius/prevent it from showing up if no one is dead. Even then most endgame perks are met more with annoyance (NWO) than 'nerf nao' cries.
Killed 'early' - Your definition of 'early' seems to be instead 'at all'. I would say an early kill is fewer than 6 hook actions, maybe states. 3 hooks on 1 person would be an early kill imo, and 5 hooks total with a kill would equally be an early kill imo. I aim to hook each player at least once before caring about killing anyone, unless I'm map offered against or feeling the pressure.
Decide 'when to win' - Killer still has agency, open the gates yourself. Heck, the only time I couldn't was because I ran against a cheater that fake hooked himself in front of the gate switch. If they waste time they lose instead. Easy problem currently solvable.
Slugging vs Exit Gate clicky clicky teabag - Again, agency issue. Slugged Survivors can't do anything when being purposely bledout, but the Killer can force Survs to leave or risk getting hooked. I personally clean up pallets/breakable walls for extra BP in those cases.
Hit on hook vs flashlight/teabag after pallet stun - I don't care and find it funny on both ends. My opposition was so inclined to waste their time, and leave themself at a disadvantage (slowdown from hit recovery, or less time running away from the pallet). I think people only care about the facecamp hit on hook, which is more annoyed at the facecamping than the hitting on hook. It sucks knowing 'just do gens' is the proper counter to facecamping, then seeing your team run at you for the rescue just to be tunneled back on hook 15s later.
Killer win = unfun toxic - Then you complain in the same post Survivors doing gens lets them win which is unfun and toxic. Hilarious lack of awareness. Even then its clearly false hyperbole.
@NoHookDC said:
Killers:
- Can't Slug (According to Survivors, who demand basekit Unbreakable; Slugging is BM, and anything toxic should be removed! Also, it wastes Survivor's time, and that's just wrong!)
- Can't tunnel. (It's unfair to knock someone out of the game before THEY decide to leave!)
- Can't camp/confirm kills.
- Are expected. Nay, almost FORCED, to 12 hook.
- Had gen regression perks nerfed.
- Can't 3-Gen, or it's their fault. Even if Survivors 3-gen themselves; It's the Killer's fault.
- Should get teleported and stunned if the killer 'BMs' by hitting a Survivor on the hook. Yes, this is easy to abuse, but that's the point.
Survivors:
- Get new genrush perks.
- Can play in a 4-Man SWF that gives them +50 free perks.
- If they 3-Gen; It's the Killer's fault.
- Claim the game is 'Basically over' at 5 gens, and expect NoED and other endgame perks to be nerfed accordingly.
- Seriously; They keep getting genrush perks, yet point to the +10 seconds on each gen as if it was some amazing change.
- T-bag. (It's not BM! Get thicker skin, Killers! The game should not be changed because you're angry!)
- Can wait in the exit gates to t-bag. But it's fine to waste Killer time instead of leaving. Also; it's not BM because Killers need to cope. BM only exists if it makes Survivors angry.
No wonder this game is hemorrhaging Killers; We're literally not allowed to win anymore, because literally anything we do is 'toxic'. 🙃
Things specific here not covered above.
Can't tunnel at all - I've only seen people be truly annoyed or frustrated by being Deep Wounded the milisecond off hook and/or intentionally tunneled from the onset of the unhook. Everyone bodyblocking or who did a conspicuous action responds more with a "its a fair cop" ala the Monty Python witch.
12 hook - I don't think it should be forced, but encouraged. I would add a basekit lesser Grim Embrace that only activates while everyone is alive, and can even activate twice. If you get both GE procs, then unlock basekit Moris with bonus Sacrifice BP. I got a 4k rings much different than I got 4 basekit Moris. It adds extra challenge for extra BP. I would similarly add a White Glyph basekit equivalent after all chests/gens/totems are done, for the Survivor equivalent extra challenge for extra BP.
Gen Regression nerfed - Only the unearned regression is nerfed, earned regression is still strong, and in some cases better.
3-gen - As mentioned in the thread, only intentional from the onset 3-genning is sought to be targeted. I think a decent idea would be after the 4th gen pops, the first gen 'uncompletes' itself. This gen can be redone at half speed (180s), and has an indicator for how many Survs are currently working on it. After 10 minutes (from 1 gen remaining), the remaining gens also 'uncomplete' themselves with the same rules, in case the gen was an unintentional 4-gen, causing the same problem as before.
TP+Stun if hook hit - False narrative to make the opposing side look ridiculous, when no one actually is suggesting this, making this assertion the ridiculous one.
New genrush perks - I only saw 1 perk actually increase speeds, being Gabriels Toolbox reload if 4 greats are hit while holding an empty box. Friendly Competition loses time compared to the time you have to waste cooping compared to soloing gens. I am hesitant about the new perk, but since I rarely see BNPs/juicy Toolboxes PLUS BTL/Hyperfocus/Stakeout, I think it will only be an issue when a new gen completion tome comes out. Too few people have fun exiting the gates faster, they prefer to get a good chase, or get some BP, or get some pips by doing a variety of gameplay actions instead.
4-man SWF for 50+ perks - How many SWFs honestly play like a Hens styled sweat squad instead of AFK During Campfire styled friends goofing off? Every SWF I play against trolls each other more than tries to win at all costs.
10s gen - and yet hook timers were unadjusted, empowering all forms of camping, not just face.
Teabag = BM - I would only consider the lack of agency insults BM. In any of those situations does the Killer player lose agency? Nope, unless it was a cheater with the 5 minute stun. Did the killer do the wswsws mid match before hooking, then that equally would not be BM as the surv team can still do gens, and the 'BM' only hurt the chances of victory of the person doing it. Only if they are doing it while bleeding the last Surv out intentionally would I consider it BM.
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They should definitely add a Killer equivalent of TR heartbeat, but for worked gens. That way for Deaf/HoH (or the more common, when audio is bugging out) players can tell a gen is being worked when they are in range of it supposed to be audible. Since Survivor's is a heartbeat in their chest or center of the screen, I'd say an option for transparent offset from the center, and on the gens remaining icon are the best spots. Many Killers need to aim their basic attack or special attack, so the transparency helps not block, but also offset from the center, so it doesn't cover Huntress/Deathslinger aims.
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@Krazzik said:
DCing because you're 'not having fun' is looked down on because if everyone did that then DBD would be completely ruined because people would be DCing from most games.
To be fair, why would you play a game you don't enjoy? Often times DCs reveal flaws in the gameplay loop for enjoyment. If the game had a problem circumstance that became so bad that someone is breaking the rules of the game to avoid it, maybe that problem should be addressed. I'm most certainly not saying Ragequit DCs from being outplayed don't exist, or any other 'temper tantrum' styled DC, just most of the games I've played had a massive problem cause a random given player to quit.
It's also strange there is no bot replacement or reconnect system. A fair number of DCs seem to be internet related, more than behavior related. One week my internet was a little wonky, and I could watch videos with no slowdown, but about 1 in 3 games it would randomly DC me long enough to boot me from the match. It was so bizarre because the YT vid on my second screen had no slowdown or skipping each time it happened.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3428025#Comment_3428025
You haven't given a reason to not use the flak cannon. No matter how skilled you are, the flak cannon is the better tool for the job.
And yes it is toxic to shame people for using the best tools. It'll be like telling artists their works have no value because they used a computer instead of by hand.
I thought it was implied, through using the analogy, a flak cannon is clearly overkill. It is designed to take out aircraft (4-man comp swf), not geese barely flying in formation (4 no mither memelords, or bog standard soloq teammates). Because it is overkill, it proves it wasn't the best tool for the job. The best tool for the job is the one closest to the opposition's tools, as it allows skill alone to determine the victor. It is so comedically overtuned for the job, that skill expression isn't visible. Because I shot it, EVERYTHING in that direction died. Whereas if I were to bring the throwing knife and end up against an aircraft, I can win by getting lucky hitting a propeller or stray fuel line. Seeing the throwing knife user's skill is quite apparent, seeing the flak cannon user's skill is near impossible.
Lets say you need to reach a results target number of X. X could be anywhere from 1-100. You need a total of skill+tools to sum greater than X to win. When you bring the flak cannon starting at a tools value of 50, you win without any skill in about half of matches, and only in the 51-100 range was skill required. That also means proportionately, the player brings less skill. If they win against a Survivor team with 75 effectiveness results, they only brought 26+ skill points. That would be in comparison to say a 10 and 25 tool player, who would need to bring 65+/50+ skill respectively. There are a rare few Blight players who bring less than the max, lowering the tool variable to be more reliant on skill. These madchads bring BBQ alone, maybe Shadowborn to add salt for taste(no add-ons). Whilst they still brought a strong tool (Blight), they brought no other such crutch, and are far more reliant on skill for victories.
If everyone engages in the rocket tag of bringing the most lethal tools, every match will degenerate into a sweatfest. When I'm Killer, and someone sends me to what could be seen as an unfavorable map, I bring my A-game. They drew first blood, and indicated they wanted to sweat. If I can tell who brought the map, (or more accurately, who didn't) I might play kinder to those who didn't bring it, to show I only bring sweat to match sweat. Personally I also let BPS players go. They wanted BP, and they gave me BP to match, so I can afford to give them 14k (7k doubled) extra BP if I established I could have killed them. They know it was mercy, or rather their 'bribe', that ensured their survival. I feel and know I won, and they get bonus BP (in a scenario they indicated they wanted BP, by bringing the offering), its a win-win. This may seem a bit of a side tangent, but it is related. It is a matter of recognizing the opposition's tools variable, and adjusting yours to match. By not bringing the flak cannon against the memelords, I can still win through my skill expression, and avoid using perks if I want to adjust on the fly. I can avoid using Pop/Eruption by simply not kicking gens, avoid Scourge Hooks to not use PR, and not vault windows to avoid using Bamboozle. When both sides are only having the skill variable determine the victor, it is more enjoyable for everyone. If I need a free win, I can play a single-player game and set it to story difficulty. If I need to feel as though my skill beat other's, I try to bring less tools than my opposition. If I were to resort to flak cannoning everyone, they would stop playing. It is a problem that fixes itself, but not an a productive manner.
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@AGM said:
I agree that Garden of Joy's invisible barriers are egregiously close to the places you can walk off the second floor of the house, but this is not really a bug; they put them there on purpose specifically to limit the ability of killers with movement-based powers to fling themselves across the map and stand on objects and terrain that they don't want people standing on.
Imagine Demo being able to fling himself on top of some bush and place a portal that survivors have no way to destroy because they can't reach it. Preventing killers that can place objects that survivors might need to interact with from placing those objects in unreachable places is probably the whole reason for them in the first place, despite the fact that the presence of invisible walls on elevated parts of maps is very inconsistent, and ruins some of the fun of killers with mobility powers.
The issue is how the problems aren't the ones addressed, and it is a blanket invisible wall. If one particular bush could be landed on, the invisible wall can be place on the bush, without sacrificing map integrity and leaving it in this buggy mess. I believe it even prevents lunge attacks. So it goes to the extreme of impacting normal gameplay for all Killers as well.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3427451#Comment_3427451
Killers picking the best tactics does not make them unskilled. Part of being good at the game is knowing how to handle you are in. You can dislike the meta and wish the devs to change it. But getting mad at the players for using the best tools available is just being toxic.
Killers using best tactics aren't unskilled - Why that technically is true, I think someone who hunted an eagle with a throwing knife did better than the person using a flak cannon. That flak cannon user could be just as precise as the person using the throwing knife, but in this game more often than not it is because they lacked that skill, that they needed to resort to being carried by their choice of tools instead (be that Killer pick/add-ons/perks or strategies in game). People with the confidence and skill to hunt with throwing knives, like to bring throwing knives in order to show off their skill. People who want to get the 'free win' of a successful 'hunt' have a greater tendency to bring the flak cannon.
Getting mad at players using the best tools is toxic - Gunna have to hard disagree on multiple fronts to this claim. You can get mad at whatever you want, as long as you aren't taking it out of the game. Saying 'not cool' in endgame chat is far from toxic, whereas doxing them is clearly inappropriate. Also if I wanted a chill middle-ground shotgun game, but got a flak cannon opponent like mentioned above, the flak cannoneer just wasted everyone's time other than their own. Due to the asymmetrical nature of the game, all of the Survs need to be flak cannoneers to be equal to a Killer being the same. So luckily in that regard, only 1 soloq Surv being a jerk doesn't (strictly) destroy the match's potential for enjoyment. That being said map offerings are the closest to full jerk territory, regardless of the side (with an exception for T1 Myers, who is nearly only viable with an indoor map).
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I understand disliking Survivor ended gameplay for the Trickster, but this isn't how to adjust it. Also, there already is a built-in 'cooldown', in the form of slowing him down further the more knives he throws. Honestly the only issue I think they should address with Trickster is (face)camping, but that would be better addressed in a generic game change, than Trickster specific changes.
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I feel since his kit is so overloaded, he actually has less skill expression. He gets those same results (4k/3k+hatch) even through a newer player bruteforcing power usage. That leaves you with a scenario where you win by Killer pick alone more often than not. Nothing I did as him was impressive or cool, because it was so easy to do it. I would say his effectiveness ceiling is among the highest, but a Legion managing a 4k against a comp squad would need far more skill to reach those same results.
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I personally prefer the Current PR. It is better at 6 hooks and fewer (15% only beats 100% at 7 hooks when it reaches 105%), and the game is won at a kill in most cases. That means it is stronger when I need it (early game), and weaker when I don't (late game post first death). Plus, if you get an early down or you know there is no gen to regress, you aren't forced to use the PR token. You can use any hook at your leisure. That is amazingly freeing, especially when killing a Survivor you already used their token on, so you don't have to burn a Scourge Hook. I will say it is worse for multi Scourge builds, but Floods still gets value as most people think you forgot whether or not you got the PR token on them or not.
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@GamerButNotCapitalG said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3423059#Comment_3423059
killer bans are a stupid idea. this isn’t a symmetric game and there’s not many killers. you agree to play against things you don’t like by playing the game. even 1 free dc per lifetime is a stupid idea. don’t play if you’re going to dc on purpose. uninstall instead.
I suppose you are right, there aren't that many Killers after all. They only have Trapper, Wraith, Billy, Nurse, Myers, Hag, Doctor, Huntress, Bubba, Freddy, Pig, Clown, Sprit, Legion, Plague, Ghostie, Demo, Oni, Mr. Yeehaw, Pyramid Head, Blight, Twins, Trickster, Nemmy, Pinhead, Artist, Onion Ring, Dredge, Albert Whiskers, Knight, and Dull Merchant. A measly 31 Killers would never allow the game to be playable with a ban ratio of say, 1 per 5 released Killers round down. To be fair if you were speaking of Killer players, not unique Killers, then that is what the following sentence is designed to fix. With a BP incentive for least banned Killers, people may play and learn some more variety of gameplay.
After all, if I wanted to not play against Stealth Killers and ban Wraith, Myers, Pig, Ghostie, Onion Ring, and Dredge, I might have to play against a Demogorgon bringing the stealth portal Iri addon. Goodness forbid. Sarcasm aside, 6 bans (currently) would be the Goldilocks amount of 'just right' bans to keep the game from instaDCs or suicide on first hooks, while also not (significantly) impacting matchmaking. If I were to play late at night, and there is only one Blight killer online, I have seen all too many of my soloq Survivor teammates DC anyways thinking what I assume to be "that's my last match for the night". As the sentiment could be seen on the '~5 Skull Merchant games in a row' post in the past week. It would be better to not put that player in the Blight match, to prevent the instant DC ruining everyone's gameplay experience and offerings regardless.
@NoHookDC said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3423059#Comment_3423059
So basically, you think Survivors blocking Killers they are too lazy to learn to play against should be a basis for balancing those Killers?
Yeah. No. Horrid reasoning to balance Killers.
And if you want Killer bans; I want to ban certain Survivor perks. Fair is fair; you want to take away my ability to use certain powers, I want to take away yours.
I did specify that the highly numbered bans would only be polled as to why people don't like them. If there was no just reasons, then no changes would be needed. The strange person who wants to never fight Huntress and Billy can just never go against those 2 Killers. Also theoretical Killer bans would prevent the match from being formed, it wouldn't kick you in a lobby then force you to hotswap Killers. Also the same logic could be applied in reverse, is the Killer player too lazy to learn to play more than their one-trick?
I think the Realm ban I offered is far more better of a selection for Killers to ban than perks (as banning open maps as stealth Killers, or varied terrain height as Artist, or more), but even then, Survivors would be granted an equal perk ban. Each Surv gets 1 perk to ban, for the 4 the Killer gets. Each side (not player) gets 4 perk bans. I think that would be a problem though because if you see the Killer ban Reassurance+Camaraderie, you know they plan on getting camping value. Since basekit game flaws are only held together by perks to prevent the extreme depravities of the game, I feel that would decrease match quality, rather than increase it. I often see on the forums Blights complaining about people DCing/suicide on first hook for little more reason than their Blight pick. This would fix that entirely, as only people willing to go against Blight would have to. Ultimately a Killer ban doesn't 'take away my ability to use certain powers', it just prevents people who don't want to go against that from having to.
If literally everyone in the game bans the new theoretical Killer "Mr Squiggly", then there clearly was an unaddressed problem of Mr Squiggly, that was causing match quality to go down instrumentally. If Mr Squiggly is universally banned, then clearly Mr Squiggly is a horrendously designed Killer made to make people quit the game. This would keep people playing, even while Mr Squiggly's problems still go unaddressed. Many people have their own current "Mr Squiggly", such as players with emetophobia unable to go against Plague. Also since this would be an option in the menues, not on by default, we could only expect ~40% of the playerbase to even use the features, if I recall the numbers correctly for the wiggle skillcheck beta. Personally I would also have a 'previous Killer' option for the bans, so that way people only wanting variety could get 7 different Killers before a repeat.
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I'd give you 3/week tops (and even 3 is pushing it). Also it would need to show the count ingame when you go to leave match and above the button. Any more than that and it would run the risk of spilling over from avoiding the worst of what people hate to avoiding minor inconveniences.
I still think a Killer ban system would solve more of the problem (Barring the newest released Killer within half a chapter). With Killers being able to ban realms (Barring the newest released map also within half a chapter, and map offerings [although an argument for removing map offerings could be made as well]).
Hopefully by allowing theoretical 'free DCs' or Killer bans, they would recognize certain Killers are banned or 'dodged' at a greater rate, and fix whatever reason people wouldn't want to play against them. For example I hate when an Oni/Myers (and to a lesser extent Plague) charges up their power from your team, then pops their power on you. It feels so unearned, as you didn't colossally fail to give them their power. The occasional feedback surveys could ask the reasons for the chart toppers for bans/DCs.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3422375#Comment_3422375
It's not strong mechanic?
It allows survivors to ignore slugging. Survivor got downed and wasn't hook? I don't care, I can just keep working on my gen.
This removes slugging not really because killer won't be able to go back and pick up, but it will create 0 pressure if survivors have infinite UB.
Slugging is currently good way to create pressure. It should be used. Some killers need to use it.
Full BM slugging is rare, I have played against that once (this tome). It's not some super popular mechanic.
If you see it often, then it's probably you, pissing off the killer. There are things survivors can do, where only answer is to let them bleed out. If you do that, then you will get bleed out. Nothing new.
Thing about tunneling was that if I downed someone dead on hook early, I just slug him and chase someone else. It would be better to kill him, but slugging gives some pressure. If you remove that, what else to do? Kill him.
Camping was nerfed, you want to remove slugging, 3-gen was nerfed. If you keep nerfing everything, you will see only tunneling. Hit&Run got back, but it's possible for only few killers.
Ignore Slugging - Only after 45s, until then it still is a threat. 45s of soft pressure is more than enough to get them on hook and start the real pressure. BM involving slugging (in excess of 45s) is far more annoying/time consuming that the loss of slugging for allied pickup pressure. In more cases than not, if a Killer needed to slug for anti-gen pressure, they could down that person quick enough that the 45s of 3 people on gens would be enough.
See it often - Sadly it happens most with Blight and Nurse players when we (the Survivor team, soloq or SWF) gasp completed 1 gen so they couldn't get a 5 gen victory. That is more of a flaw of OP killers drawing the lowest of the low for their single-player power-fantasies than anything though. Although I also got BMed by a Nemesis because the 4th Surv never connected and DCed on first hook after a zombie downed them. Also a Pinhead trapped a Surv because he could, but the latter didn't involve slugging.
Playstyles nerfed/buffed - Camping was buffed, idk what you are talking about. Reassurance and Camaraderie are the only counters to camping, and both have massive flaws. (Reassurance needs you to be nearly adjacent, and Camaraderie only works on death hook.) I do want camping/slugging/tunneling to be hard nerfed, and spreading hooks to be buffed. I detailed (in a series of discussions) a system to give Devour Hope styled speed boost to leave hooks (without using power), prevent hiding perks from working when you are hooked less than all other Survs, and unlock Moris basekit if you death hook each Survivor before killing any of them (with bonus Sacrifice BP to boot). I want things that scare off new players to be gone for both roles. Most of the Killer player complaints on the forums warrant the response 'git gud', but I was able to 'git gud' with the crutch of pre 6.1.0 Pop+Tinker, so I could learn all the basics as a bunch of Killers. Without those same 'training wheels' I don't know what people have to use to comfortably 'git gud' now. As a result the Harry Potter esque "Why is it, when something happens, it is always you three?" of Camping/Tunneling/Slugging are used as those 'training wheels'. When the system to practice to get better is also the same systems on the opposite side that drive people away from the game, there will be a perpetual cycle of learning players scaring off other learning players. That is what I want to get rid of ultimately.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3421468#Comment_3421468
I guess people just want to see more tunneling...
It's amazing that anyone would want to implement such strong mechanic, just because of some killers BM.
So same to you, if you don't like this "BM". Just go play custom, where you can agree on not slugging :)
I listed astoundingly easy counters to every possible scenario brought up, but it still is a "such strong mechanic". Ok sure /s. I don't see this as a strong mechanic at all due to the plethora of counters available. Greater than 90% of downs are met with an immediate pickup or pallet kick first. Then to double down on intentional BM you would imply people would just tunnel on purpose to ruin people's experience since they couldn't slug them anymore to do so. Nothing about slugging being 'deleted', (which a 45s basekit self-pickup doesn't even go that far) would 'require' tunneling. It appears you are arguing from a 'I see this as a nerf to me specifically' standpoint, and not able to distance yourself from the theoretical. The vast majority of cases this would fix a problem, and the only matches that would be significantly impacted are the ones that matter the least, 'comp matches'.
Removing bad things isn't bad. Wanting to keep bad things is bad. I don't defend Garden of Pain or Borgo, I think they are horrendous maps. (To be fair you can Bloodlust a lot of those pallets easy enough, so it isn't as unplayable as people make it out to be, but still miserable and in need of fixing imo.) Those maps should be fixed just as slugging should be fixed. The lows for everyone's experience should be minimized, especially when it can be done without impacting the vast majority of circumstances.
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Swamp and Yamaoka maps are perfect imo. Both tend to not be the best for the overperforming Killers, while not hindering the weaker Killers. Swamp also is super interesting in how it actually uses verticality without exclusively using the 2 floor concept like RPD/Gideons. Yamaoka is also similar to a lesser degree in using adjusted verticality (with the pagodas). I also love how Sanctum of Wrath is like a fair version of the 'H' maps like Suffocation Pit or Azarov's Resting Place. Both of those maps can be camped by Killers in the center, or ran by Survivors with busted chained tiles in the center. Sanctum has a decent center structure, but not busted for Survivor, and not fully campable by Killer.
Macmillain and Autohaven aren't bad per-se, but you can only expect a sweatlord to map offer it, so you are always in for a bad time if you see the offering. Even if the person is on your soloq team, they are gunna play more sweaty, so the Killer is going to play more sweaty to match their energy.
I know many people aren't the biggest fans of indoor maps, but I thoroughly enjoy the different set of skills needed to succeed on them. The ambiguity of a Killer being on the same floor as Survivors makes greeding gens a risky proposition. Also the lack of distant crows is made up for a head-start Killers can get in chase. They also make Survivor stealth play empowered, so if the Killer greedily brought all slowdown, then the lack of intel will clearly hurt.
I also love how with Gideons the gens are always on one side of the doors, based on floor. That way you if you know the mapgen rules as Killer or Survivor, you can find how to navigate to gens. (I think top floor the gen is clockwise side of the door, and bottom floor the gen is counter-clockwise side of the door.) I do think Midwich needs more windows, maybe a courtyard ground floor on one side and top floor on the opposite. Also personally I prefer old RPD. The new RPDs feel sided between East/West, whereas old RPD felt in between the 2 current versions for the better.
Also they need to fix scratch marks on Borgo/Ormond. Either make them a different color on those maps, or allow for a full custom color scratchmarks in general. (Not just the colorblind presets.) I'm not colorblind, but I feel like I am when trying to see scratchmarks on those 2 maps.
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Killer Perks:
Overrated: No Way Out. This just feels like a guaranteed 4k perk if you close Hatch. The majority of matches where I get value with this, I would have gotten more value with more of anything else, be that Slowdown, Lethality, or Intel. A Bamboozle or Enduring to cut a chase shorter, Floods/BBQ/Discordance to know where people are, or Pop/Eruption/PR/Gift of Pain to slow things down a bit more.
Underrated: Probably Gift of Pain. It Sloppies them, so if you interrupt the 20s heal under hook, the time is wasted. Then if they choose not to heal at another teammate, they remain injured for a quicker down. Finally it adds ~17s to complete a gen, which also makes people greed at gens in your face and fail to pop it. (Just always go for the kick or double kick before the swing.)
Survivor Perks:
Overrated: Prove Thyself 100%. Main brain Killers act like this destroys the game, but it more often makes Survs waste time on duo gens instead of completing 2 solo gens. I will say the BP incentive is nice, but otherwise the only value is breaking up a 3 gen at the start or end of a match. That is useful, but at the cost of throwing more often than not in giving the Killer free pressure should they interrupt the gen. I'd much rather any other gen perk and just break 3 gens before they become a problem.
Underrated: Breakdown. All too often you get hooked on a Scourge Hook or a corner hook, and now that is gone for 3 minutes. Killers often tend to hook Survs on the same hook over and over, even if they don't have a scourge perk, most often because they know it is there. This can make a Killer autopilot towards that hook, then realize too late that it isn't available. Sadly some maps like RPD have too many central hooks for this to matter, but denying Scourge and corner hooks more than make up for this. I kinda think the aura reveal isn't too useful, as you usually can see if the Killer plans on tunneling/going for unhooker regardless.
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Any Killer where the power is how you damage people, but not 1 hit down them. Legion isn't as good as people are making them out to be because if Survivors do the right play (stay injured) you only get ~1k Devious. Also good Killer options include where power use helps get a hit like Doctor or Clown.
Demo is great, Wesker is great, Blight is great, Huntress is good, (great only if you get the full charge BP hatchet hit) Spirit is good, (great if you get both hits, but people typically get the first hit then get the 2nd as a Phase hit.) Wraith is good, (great if you get both as uncloak hits) Deathslinger is good, (great if you get both hits as shots, similar to Spirit).
Also getting 4k is a bonus 2.5k Devious, and Pinhead also gets a bonus 2.5k Devious if no one escapes with the box, which happens more often than not.
You also have to balance around how quick you win. If I get an early down as Nurse, but 2 Survs DC, it isn't worth the time to play her. I think Demo and Huntress are perfect middle grounds of effectiveness as well as long/fun enough matches.
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I would just like it to be a toggle-able option (Default on). I know when I was new, it had some merit, but now it near exclusively screws me over.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3421014#Comment_3421014
Oni -> it stops his power, which can be big deal unless you know about some big blood pool.
Plague, Dredge and Myers basically waste part of their power instead trying to get maximum value from it.
Cenobite if someone got cube.
Hag if someone triggered her trap.
Twins get 4 second stun for each down with Victor, it's way more effective trying to slug and get Victor on someone before going for hook.
Ghost face doesn't really have to slug, unless he screwed it and triggered expose status on multiple survivors, but that's missplay.
It woul
dkill an avenue of BM? not really, If I want to BM, I am going to do it anyway.Killer can just kill everyone else and watch single survivor bleed out. I have done same thing to survivors who were abusing boil over before nerf, or bug where they were stuck next to wall and I couldn't pick up. They teammates try to save them? So what when I can insta down them again. It's same thing for basekit UB.
It wouldn't stop BM, it would only buff survivors a lot.
Only situation where this would be acceptable change is if you remove every perk that makes it faster, so it's not variable, but constant time, which you can play around.
For about half those Killers that is the only counterplay against their power beyond "don't let them use it" which is the same as saying don't play against those Killers. Even then, as I laid out in the Oni example, it is easy as Killer to keep the 45s in your mind and return before a basekit self-pickup can happen, especially since most of the powers give an easy indicator to gauge 45s. (Plague/Myers/Dredge 1 minute is 3/4 of the bar, Oni is the entire power, Cenobite and Hag are the only times you can safely interact with their power as Surv, and nobody like Twins on both sides for this very reason.) The majority of the Killers you mentioned were in the top 10 in terms of effectiveness, so it isn't like we are kicking a Trapper/Clown while they are down. Also with Myers he still has 1 hit downs while carrying, so that scares people off from saves or allows for preventing bodyblocks on hooks.
Massive buff to Survs - There is no (realistic) world where this would buff Survivors by "a lot". Maybe a teeny bit (1-2% kill rates at most), but not a massive sweeping change that would impact normal gameplay.
Perks - Also as I detailed in the previous post when they adjusted the perks, they stayed the same or were nerfed because they weren't proportionately buffed. Even then, in the playtest numbers there were only 2 normal numbers to worry about, UB/Expo 22.5s, and basekit 45s. No Mither... well if you're worried about the No Mither pickup timing, you have greater problems in this game. Once someone picks themself up at half the time then you can know to not slug them, and the problem solves itself.
The only reason to remove these pickup speed boosts is if we should remove all timer changes, from coop gen slowdown to Monstrous Shrine hook timers to gen regression perks to Botany/Desperate Measures heal speed changes to everything else. If you want to do that, then just play customs where no one brings perks.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3420179#Comment_3420179
you think 45 seconds is a lot? Hook stage is 60 seconds.
You will die after 4 minutes of being slugged, so with infinite UB basekit, you have 5x deliverance.
Killer has broken space bar? What?
You have killers who lose their power if they pick up survivor, of course then need slug.
Survivor died under pallet and I see another survivor nearby? of course I need slug and push him away, if he is in bad location, it's good idea to commit and force another survivor to help slugged. That's lot of pressure.
Yeah, 45s is more than enough time to do your Killer taxes, kick the gen and pallet, chase off the would be rescuer, and pick them up before they could pick themselves up. Thanks for agreeing. Ultimately how long the timer feels is based on the pressure someone is under. With no pressure or massive pressure it could feel like forever. It could be 25s and feel like forever thinking "okay I have to kick the pallet I downed them at, hook them 3ft away, go use Pop, and chase the person who was resetting the boon for the third time." All that took no time at all relatively speaking, but with thoughts racing at a mile a minute it could be overwhelming to some. At the same time someone uninterrupted on a gen for 90 entire seconds could feel like it went by super quickly since nothing happened for them to pay attention to.
5x Deliverance - I wasn't aware you get 5 first hooks where you needed to rescue someone else first. I also wasn't aware you were hooked the milisecond you get downed. I thought the Killer had to actually pick them up and walk them over first.
Space Bar Broken - As in that is the only excuse to not pick up (within 45s).
Power drop on pickup - So Oni and ... that's it. You could make an argument for Ghostie, but as a Ghostie main I'll just say no. You lose your power anyways when swinging (in the majority of cases). With Oni however, you get 45s of power, subtracted by 7s per down. So even if you try to snowball from an instant down the milisecond after you start power and find no one, that was only 38s of the Survivor being slugged, so you can keep that in your mind and pick them up. Also if you managed to get all 4, it takes 45-28s for 17s of power, and you still have that 28s to pick up the first downed Survivor. Then you can hook them sequentially in the order of downing, easily within the timeframe. Even if they start crawling, they can't recover, so your timer to find them is even longer. This wouldn't kill Oni, it would kill an avenue of BM. (Also pickup early to save Blood bar as Oni is very helpful in any case where you don't know where someone is at.)
Survivor downed under pallet requiring pushing the other Surv off - Which can be done well within the 45s time limit. If it takes a player more than 45s to get them far enough away to get the pickup, that Killer player honestly needs to practice against Survivors closer to their own playtime in order to understand how to play. If the entire team is swarming the area, then gens aren't being progressed, and eventually they will all be injured, and die. Still a win for Killer.
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@jajay119 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3420092#Comment_3420092
Did we? Can't say I've noticed.
Well the funny thing is, they have said they disable the anti-map repeat feature when they release a new map/variant. That way enough people can play it for testing. So its ends up being down more often than you'd expect.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3419808#Comment_3419808
If you don't have tracking perks or tracking killer, you will never find them until they get bored. They can ignore crows by dropping and picking an item.
Record I had was looking for them almost 30 minutes (28min). You will never hold game hostage that long with slugging. That's why there is a timer for it count as win condition.
Killer can be afk? Killer managed to slug 4 survivors at the same time, how was that afk? It's not really that easy (depends on killer).
Same logic would be survivors waiting during endgame collapse instead of leaving, they already won, but making game longer without doing anything. Let's report them, of course....
They just nerfed self-healing, it seems like they want survivors to actually have some team play, not everyone be self dependent.
Noone liked Mori system also because you wouldn't be able to give survivor hatch after downing them. It kinda needs to be connected, because basekit UB is massive buff for all survivors. It doesn't have to be connected with Mori system, but there have to be some feature for killers to balance it.
45 seconds is not that much, survivors can ignore slugged survivor and work on gens instead, it will still be more effective then helping him (unless that survivor is on deadhook). So yay, let's promote selfish gameplay, what could go wrong.
Also with base-kit UB, you would have to remove all perks that make recovery faster, because they would become broken.
Also add lot of hooks on some maps. Nerf Boil over, so survivors can't create situation where only counter is let them bleed out. Not really an option with infinite UB, when they can use soul guard to take hit.
Power Struggle can make it so I can't pick them up, just let yourself down under pallet and have teammate show himself, so killer can't pick up. Only thing killer can do is slug at that time, or take basically DS. Survivors won't care with base-kit UB.
If you don't have tracking perks, you still have a brain, ears, and eyeballs. (ideally, sorry if you are playing with 1 eye or any other permutation.)
30m hide fight - That isn't impossible, but as long as they weren't doing gens, you can report them after the game is over (with video as mentioned in my prior post).
Killer AFK - The statement was more accurately the Killer can reach a gamestate where they can win by going AFK. Nurse can get the 4 downs super quick, then get a coffee or go to the bathroom and still come back with a win, either from nobody bringing UB, or because she can do the same immediately upon returning.
Survs at gates - Again, Killer has agency in this scenario. Killer can attack to push out, or leave to ignore or clean up pallet/wall BP. Survivor being bled out has no agency.
Team play - That's why I included not only the 45s pickup as an option, (which would require the team to distract/provide interference long enough to happen) but also a duo pickup from the ground, where 2 Survivors could pick each other up when slugged.
Mori System - I already covered that you can stand near hatch swinging to indicate you are giving it as Killer, but the ability to choose mori/mercy would have been a good improvement. I highly doubt basekit pickups at 45s would be a massive nerf/change to kill rates. As long as they float around 60% BHVR is happy. I would argue it would alter this by 2% max. The vast majority of Killers never even get UB used against them, because they hook people when they get the down. Heck, in the past month I have only had 1 Killer match where UB changed the kill count of the match, (down to a 2k from a 3k) and I knew I should have hooked the person first anyways due to their playstyle. So if I wasn't on autopilot it still wouldn't have gotten value.
45s pickup lead to selfish gameplay - Why is the Killer incapable of hooking the Survivor? Is their spacebar broken? It isn't like they have to go to the opposite corner of the map when they get the M1 down before picking them up, they are literally under their feet. They can get the hook to force the altruistic gameplay with an unhook. Not difficult at all. The only circumstance remaining is intentional BM.
Basekit pickup change ground recovery speed perks - Which they did in the playtest. They kept UB at ~22s self pickup, (same as current) and by not adjusting Exponential's numbers they actually nerfed it from ~16s pickup to ~22s pickup. Again, nothing is stopping the Killer from picking up in this 22s timeframe.
Add more hooks - Attempt a Sabo play where you sabo a hook, Sprint Burst to another hook, and they still have the time to reach the third hook. There are more than enough hooks in the vast majority of instances. Also maps where Boil Over is a problem already have 2-3 hooks available even to perkless Killers. The only caveat may be the need to kick a wall before picking up, such as on Eyrie in the top corner with the window. You can fall with ~3s of wiggle progress and still reach the hook within 5s, not even the 11 extra needed to wiggle.
Power Struggle - Yeah the perk that only also works with a second perk, Flip-Flop, and a teammate not on gens giving the Killer a massive advantage. Even then it is limited to pallets, so they are burning a macro resource. I also never thought someone would be a mad enough lad to complain about a gigachad meme build, but here we are. Also, with 45s basekit pickups and PS+FF you need ~14s of recovery instead of the current ~10s, which is almost a 50% nerf. Also even in the 'horrific' scenario of a teammate going down on pallet and someone else in the vicinity, just chase them around the pallet. You have plenty of time to get the hit or force the pallet. Because of the spawns it is also unlikely there is another pallet in the area, so they have to give you injuries/downs. Even then, you are acting like 45s of an effective incapacitated status effect with a chase on another Surv is this unwinnable game position, which seems vastly out of touch with reality. Especially given Eruption with 25s Incap made Survivor unplayable for many people who hard quit the game.
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It still amazes me we got a map repeat prevention before a (much needed imo) Killer repeat prevention.
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I like it with Ghostface/Pig, but not so much with 'free' hit killers like Wraith or Spirit. When a gen has a deadzone where the Killer can just zip on top of you before you can quite respond, its miserable. At least with Pig/Ghostface I can see them approaching, so the failure is mine alone. If gens had a guaranteed window near them, I wouldn't care. I also typically don't mind when playing with friends, because if we fail to (coordinate a) heal, that's our fault and we get punished for it.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
if you down all 4 survivors or 3 survivors when not all gens are completed. I would say that 99% of the time, the killer gets 3 kills minimum. All finisher mori did was save time. Instead of hooking survivor for 1 minute, the game would end faster. worst case scenario, the killer cannot find survivor and survivor bleed out. maybe consider deer stalker base-kit when 1 person is left so killer can save 4 minutes of bleed out timer to move on to next game.
There very niche cases where finisher mori system would make difference over normal game. Normally it is when multiple survivors go down next to exit gate but killer cannot pick up all 3 slugged survivors that crawl out exit gate. that is like only situation where finisher mori system helps killer. Other then that, its quick way to save time to move on the next match.
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I think 45 second of unlimited unbreakable was an attempt to buff killer slugging because premise is that if it takes 4 minutes to die, a killer would need 4-5 downs to bleed someone out. I just don't its good approach to buffing slugging. It kinda misses the mark. the problem with slugging is that its too slow of a method for survivors to die. The unbreakable effect to pick yourself up is like deliverance for hooks. if you are slugging someone, your incentived to camp the survivor on the floor because they will get back up automatically. your putting time pressure on killer to hook else they lose out on their hooking reward and with ability self-pick up, the survivors gain time from not having to go from save instead of lose time. As OP title suggests, bleeding out for 4 minutes is really long time dbd. Encouraging slow-play bleed out is not particular fun for survivor. I would recommend avoiding that gameplay.
The way I would approach slugging is every time a survivor is put into dying state. when another survivor heals another survivor or a survivor is picked up with non-unlimited unbreakable type perks, they suffer minor regression penalty to their bleed out bar. I am not sure what number would be but say 10-15% total bleed out regression. If a survivor reaches last 10 second of bleed bar and another survivor is healing them, the bleed out bar is paused. When survivor is picked up, their bleed out bar reaches 0. If a killer downs them when their bleed out bar is 0, then the killer automatically mori's the survivor. I think this system would be better because it encourage killer to move around and down as many survivors as possible. When the killer sees the bleed out bar is low, they can try to camp out the survivor to kill them similar to how a killer would camp a survivor when they are on death hook with <30 second to try to get them killed. In doing this change, they could rework troll perks like No mither and slightly adjust unbreakable to accommodate system. Some of slugging perks could be improved as well such as Soulguard, We're gonna live forever and Tenacity. BT for hook is 20 seconds, soulguard could be 20 seconds of endurance. We're gonna live forever could reduce regression penalty to 0 based off its stacks. Tenacity could slow down bleed out. This would be my approach to towards slugging. Survivor would have more threats then just hook-states. they would need to adapt slugging as part of normal gameplay loop.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3419808#Comment_3419808
I think they want slugging and finisher mori to be part of same update.
I understand that was what the playtest was, but as I said at the ending paragraph, there is no need for those 2 concepts to be glued together.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3419498#Comment_3419498
There is no counter? Soooo is there a counter to hooking a survivor?
Both situations need another survivor to pick them up. Slugging is faster for killer, but survivors basically have more health states.
How is it that much different?
Slugging is effective if you can immediately start another chase (three survivors not on gens), or when you have limited duration power -> Oni, Plague, Myers. Twins too for different reason tho.
It's situational thing killer can and should use.
But it's not straight better than hooking a survivor.
How do you not understand that?
Slugging to deny hatch should be reportable? Little bit entitled, aren't you?
So survivors hiding should be reportable too?
Not sure what is your logic behind it being reportable, if you try to pull up not doing objective, or make game longer. Hiding is same.
I don't really have issue with it. If they hide and waste my time, I will let them bleed out, when I find them sooner or later.
The issue is agency. If Survivors clicky clicky teabag at the exit gate, I can force them out, or leave and wait out the timer. I have a choice to end it sooner, and a choice to ignore the stimuli. If a Survivor hides, I can kick a gen and look for them around it, and if the gen stops sparking when I return, I know they are still somewhere there. I can still try to do something to advance the game, look for the Surv(s), and if I brought Nowhere to Hide, I can often get a free hit. If I need to find a hiding Survivor, they need to actively hide to play the game. If a Killer bleeds me out, I can recover (to 95%) for Survival BP, or crawl. Neither action lets me have true agency to progress the game, especially if all remaining Survs are slugged as well. Also once everyone is downed, a Killer can choose to just AFK and win. Survivors can never reach a state where they win by AFKing. A basekit solution exists for a Killer to end the match, (seek them out, or hit them to force out) but there is no such Survivor basekit solution for slugging, be that self-pickup, ally pickup each other from the ground, or a hook suicide equivalent for the ground. No agency equals a problem.
The hatch aspect is an edge case, but I understand their logic. When Survivors hide and refuse to touch gens, to get them banned you need 10 minutes of proof no gens are being progressed(IIRC it was 10m). That is strictly holding the game hostage. A Killer bleeding out the 3rd Surv while looking for the 4th is more often than not holding both those Survs hostage in spirit, even if not strictly against the rules. The Killer in that scenario is forcing a minimum of 4 minutes where the Surv isn't allowed to do anything, up to 8 if they nearly bled out one then they got picked up and the Killer repeated the process with the other Surv. The Killer holds the game hostage (in spirit) for those (typical) 4 minutes. It isn't bannable, but since the effects are clearly along the same lines as the bannable equivalent, I can understand anyone wanting it to be banned. I personally wouldn't think it is a problem as long as the other Survivor got chased within the next 30s. Essentially if you 95'ed your recovery, you should be able to give up, same as a hook suicide.
Another facet is that some people could think of themselves as a Martyr keeping the other player(s) away from the player base as long as possible before ending the match. They will take the 'L' and keep playing in an unwinnable match, if it means the scumbag opponent(s) doesn't get to 'torture' other 'victims'. I've seen both Survivors and Killers play with what appeared to be this mindset. Both sides have basically played to keep the opposition in the match as long as possible (typically under non-bannable lines).
The problem with the Mori system, was that it encouraged a speedrun to the finish by slugging all Survivors. It had 0 hook state requirements or anything. The Survivors could still play if they had the perks, (or the basekit UB) but were denied their use. The basekit UB gave 45s to pick up Survivors. Heck, even a classic snowball case Oni, has his power last 45s (-7 per down.) Even if you managed to down all 4 Survs in order, there was enough time to hook them sequentially, due to the reduced power duration on down.
The main problem is everyone is acting like those 2 features needed to be connected, but both could be implemented in various ways to still be decent. The 45s pickup was perfect for even normal matches, as it would only reasonably affect comp matches, which don't matter. The Mori finisher could have been implemented only when 1 Survivor remains, so you could down them for the Mori Finisher, or stand away from hatch in LOS to indicate you are giving it to them.
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@Heytherebigguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3419031#Comment_3419031
4 bnps with successful skills checks are a full gen what are u talking about?
There are 5 total gens needing to be completed. Completing a single gen (which takes 4 BNPs) is completing 20% of the total match gen requirement as you need 5 gens to pop to start working on gates. Divide that by 4 for the total gen requirement (again of the match, not the gen itself) per BNP, and you get 5% total gen time for the match. They also are typically burnt ASAP. Which doesn't typically help to have gens done early, as later when you need that final gen is when it is most valuable. Losing 5% of the total match gen time can matter, (to a single BNP) but not much more than sufficient pressure and short chases can provide.
It is important to keep the entire match in mind. It would be like saying "I just get hooked once and died." That would be skipping 2 hook states, or 16.66% of the game. (2/12 total hook states or 1/6) That can happen basekit right now if someone never got hooked until the hatch race of a 3K that could turn into a 4k. So a Killer can skip nearly 3 BNP equivalents by playstyle, not even an addon, and an Iri addon at that.
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@Piruluk said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3418943#Comment_3418943
Play Blight or Nurse only.
You will win a lot eventually
This is really bad advice. You will get used to the most busted stuff, and raise your account MMR beyond what you can take on with other Killers. It is better to only play in mainstream hours, and when the incentive is less than 100% for either side. That way the matchmaking is actually remotely effective, instead of prioritizing queue times over all else.
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More often than not, a coordinated 4-man is winning against a Killer. If they bring 4 BNPs, they just hasten that conclusion. They didn't need 4 BNPs to win, so if anything, that is doing the Killer a favor by not dragging out their suffering. Even then, each BNP is only 5% of the total gen progress needed, or 20% total with all 4. Even current Pain Res is essentially equal to that. That is only 1 perk slot for Killer, but a forced item and addon for the Survivor to do the same. That seems about even to me.
Also you ask if Killers have addons that give a free hook. Well if you look at how long a chase lasts without and with an addon, you can get a percentage. An exposed addon can give you essentially half the chase time, since they only have 1 health state. So essentially an exposed addon gives you half a hook each time you get value. That means they have exactly what you are asking for (more often than not). To be fair, some Killer addons do nothing to their power, like Nemesis for his whip. But others have an addon to break pallets in 1.5s, (Blight Iri serum) give a Floods of Rage activation, (Ghostie Iri Camera), Exposed (numerous Iri), and plenty of other chase shorteners.
The main problem is in how the Pig who brought box skillcheck addons isn't in the same league as a predropping BNP spamming squad. Then the next match when she brings Iri tape Ruleset 2 for the Survivors to spawn with the headtrap and not see boxes until they are active, the solo squad falls apart immediately. Part of helping that would be having a visual indicator at the very least for the rarity of items. That way the Killer seeing 4 Brown Toolboxes doesn't overreact and brings the sweaty loadout expecting Commodiouses. They have the system for Event items, so honestly just color coding the item with the rarity might be good enough. Even if the item itself isn't visually distinct, the loading screen and escape menu (where you can check offerings) could show the rarity and class of item. (Eg. Green Key, Iri Map, Brown Medkit, Yellow Toolbox.) It shouldn't show addons though. (Unless maybe as a buff for Hoarder.)
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I think Hyperfocus is great design (other than working with toolboxes). It encourages risky play, that can swing quickly for both sides. If you fail a check you lose ~12 gen seconds (9 from 10% regression, 3 from the animation and progression prevention). It only exceeds the value of a failed check at 11 consecutive Greats (or more if they weren't all in order). Also the 4 o'clock skillchecks happen frequently enough to usually prevent a max stack without Stakeout as backup. It, along with Blast Mine, Flashbang, and Wiretap, are all very well designed perks that provide more 'fun' than raw value, while encouraging people to progress the game. I would be far better off replacing Hyperfocus with Unbreakable in the majority of my games, but Hyperfocus keeps doing the least enjoyable thing at least somewhat enjoyable, as everyone loves stacks.
As I said though, it shouldn't work with Toolboxes (and I wouldn't be opposed to not working with Medkits either).
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@BasementDweller said:
It's just that the majority of Dead by Daylight fanboys are a collective hivemind spewing the same opinionated crap that they consumed from some Twitter or Reddit user and the majority follows them like sheep
Or it could be from personal experience, most of my matches against skull merchant have led to her going for the 3 gen strat either late of early game.
Skull Merchant is boring especially when they 3 gen. What other strat is there that is fun? Throw a drone on all totems and just patrol them, or is it throw down drown at loop and wait till expose and bl 3 kick in? These are the only 'strats' that have been different and they are the major minority, and they are also boring.
Weird how you call people sheep when people share the same experience with the masses.
Skull Merchant would work better if the Drones weren't stagnant. If you were forced to set a patrol path closer to Knight, but the drone homes in to apply the tracker on their arm, (maybe +exposed if already tracked) it might work better. Also the 360 degree LOS is both boring and annoying. If you had to play like a stealth game, being forced to stand-still/crouch or stay out of a cone LOS, it would be a lot more interactive. Even if we kept Skull Merchant as is, Survivors should at least be able to play the DDR minigame to remove the trap earlier than 45s, maybe after the first 15s.
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I think removing or limiting category based BP would help Survivor BP (As well as Killer, but mostly Survivor). When I get a one sided stomp (4k at 5 gens) as Killer, I can still often choose to get 12 hooks, and essentially max my BP (for a common minimum of 30k). When I get a one sided stomp (less than 3 hooks before endgame) as Survivor, I can't quite choose to fill up my BP categories, (maybe Boldness if I brought a boon and toggled it between 2 totems) and rarely even reach beyond 20k.
My suggested change would be the first 10k in a category is at 100% effectiveness, the 2nd 10k at 75%, and anything after that at 50%. That way if you coop all the gens against an AFK killer, you can get 10k Objective normally, then a total of 17.5k real BP for reaching 20k objective BP, and 22.5k total real BP if you reached 30k Objective BP. There would still be the maximum of 40k total, but the score screen would be uncapped and show 30000 (22500) under Objective given the above example. The BP offerings would multiply the parenthesis BP score. So if you exlusively got 30k Objective points with a 100% Objective offering, it would give 45k total BP. (22.5k+22.5k)
To help Killers reach the 10k Sacrifice cap naturally, I'd allow basekit Mori's to be unlocked upon reaching 8 hook actions no deaths. These all death hook Mori's would give bonus Sacrifice on top of the normal Mori kill BP. They could just get more Brutality, Deviousness, or Hunter points the same as Survivor, but I also like the idea of an earned super kill, so you can brag "oh you got a 4k? I got a 4 basekit Moris!"
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It is most frequently used to justify the extremes they bring. I can bleed out everyone as Nurse, or get my friends to bring 4 BNPs, because 'your fun isn't my responsibility' (the most often variant I've seen). While it is true that in any oppositional game, it requires a winning side and a losing side, neither side has to go out of their way to make their opponents' experience any more miserable than that.
Personally I don't care what people do as long as both sides of the equation still have agency. A teabag in chase is still in the middle of the match, but a teabag at the exit gates is just BMing. A hit on hook as the Killer is leaving is also still in the middle of the match, but if it's a Bubba facecamping there is no agency. (Technically your choices are doom your team and go next, or give them 2 minutes, but both aren't advancing you winning as much as advancing Bubba winning/losing and choosing the speed of your loss.) I think many people also categorize tunneling as that lack of agency, because the common lack of pallets or windows in the surrounding area of the hook make it a guaranteed down. (Choosing where to die is hardly a choice at all, when that's the only choice ever given.) Alternatively with the extremely powerful tunnelers, they can get 2 hits very quickly or otherwise denying an opportunity. (Huntress/Bubba from a facecamp/Blight/Nurse/Pyramid Head out of Cage/etc.)
The main thing is most people don't like to play with people who don't care about others. Think about the playground where that one kid pretends they are invincible to everything. Everyone else stops playing with them. Since there is no personal player ban system, everyone is 'forced' to play with that/those kid(s). Their opponents frequently resort to 'go next'/DCing, or attempting to ruin the experience back. I've seen this (ruin experience back) most often with 2/3 Survivors hiding and only working/tapping gens out of TR. This particular example however could also be seen as trying to survive, so its a bit of a murky grey area. It can also be seen in the 4 BNP sweat squad facing a facecamp (where the Killer can guarantee at least 1 kill). That is all the Killer can often do in endgame to maximize kills, so that's an equally murky grey area.
Overall I'd say it is only honestly said by those with chronic 'main brain'. ("Oh no my side is oppressed, my side is impossible to win as unless I do this, woe is me.") Anyone else I think is just meming, so try not to take it seriously in either case. I think many of these people are being sabotaged by kill based matchmaking. They want their kills/escapes, so they bring the most powerful stuff to do so. They get higher MMR because they crutch on the busted stuff of both sides, then they can't have a 'simple fun match' anymore with meme perks/strats, because of their prior wins only given to them for free from what they brought, and not their skill.
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@Unicorn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3416132#Comment_3416132
I have no idea what you’re on about. My response was towards the individual who stated they don’t ever see Killers complaining about Survivors play-style (looping & stealth). That wasn’t directed at OP.
Gotcha, I read their post in saying they don't see the OP specifically as a Killer complaining, (I read that they asserted OP was a Surv main) not a generalized statement for the forums at large. At least that's how my brain processed it. I do agree with the original meta post that was your first message on this thread.
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@Unicorn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3416116#Comment_3416116
this has nothing to do with someones hours in game. Re-read the exchange please.
I'm not understanding what you are trying to direct my attention towards. If the time spent on forums is the issue, that still doesn't show someone's experience across the internet at large, contributing to understanding trolls/bad faith arguments/internet sarcasm/and other internet behaviors. OP's post (no offense) comes across as a 'new player' post, and instead of responding 'skill dif git gud scrub' I tried to respond in the same vein, but more approachable. I'm still saying 'git gud' if you break it down, but I'm giving avenues to do so. Something about more flies with honey than vinegar. I can hope by helping, that I reduce the amount of those posts, instead of merely complaining about them (understandably being annoyed at the repetition, to be fair).
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Whispers for a F2P perk, Nowhere to Hide for a P2W perk, but at least NtH is Iri Shardable. Overall if there are fewer players in the match, players are less willing to risk themselves. Killing people early can make this a natural consequence. Some people do it out of a "I don't want to die", some others like "The Killer didn't want us to have fun, so I'll make sure they have as little fun as we are".
Get to know the tactics to finding Survs. Kick gens, and if they don't progress it for 10 minutes, that is considered 'holding the game hostage' and bannable. (I might be mistaken on the time, last I was aware it was 10 mins.) If they are doing that, record them and report them afterward. If they are simply outplaying you in terms of stealth, while still progressing gens, then figure out how to find them. Fake rotating gens, but double back instead. (Eg. Gen 1->Gen 2-> Gen 3 -> Gen 1 and repeating to instead be Gen 1-> Gen 2-> Gen 1-> Gen 2 -> Gen 3 -> Gen 2.) Look for crows or distant scratch marks. Check a couple lockers in the immediate vicinity. All of those (among more tactics) can eventually lead to finding Survs.
@Unicorn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3415976#Comment_3415976
No shade, but you just got to the forums last year. You shouldn’t speak as if you’ve seen all that needs to be seen.
Also just because someone hopped on the forums more recently, doesn't mean they weren't playing the game longer. Some people wait 'till they have a solid grasp on the game before commenting. That being said, if the first post/discussion was the equivalent of a 'what is this perk that has existed since release' post then sure, they may be new.
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@Dbdfan398 said:
I play survivor and killer equally. Killer has become much harder in my MMR.
People still heal really fast ( this was meant to be the slowdown to combat gen regression destruction ? )
It doesnt matter if I tunnel, or try to spread pressure. Gens are being done so fast I cant keep up.
If I hear a gen is 50% done, what am I meant to do? Are we actually meant to just let it get done?
If I go kick it, it does 2.5%, the survivor runs away and I chase them, another one gets right on it. Its lost like half a second progress. I go back, kick it again, survivors swap and vise verse. Then I have to just commit to one of them, and while I am the gen gets done.
Im feeling stuck as killer. I can only have fun on the top top tier killers now, and even those matches im literally sweating IRL. if theyre nerfed I think id be done as killer.
IMO this game is really losing its FUN factor. I am sweating in matches, but what for reason?
Play to learn, instead of playing to win. That means intentionally playing for putting each Survivor on death hook before killing them, while also recording your matches. If you find a baby Surv, let them do gens and get BP. You want to chase the best Surv in the lobby. Lose against them until you find a way to beat them. Try a bunch of different tactics, and figure out the best combo. For example, if I find my early game is weak, I may want to bring Corrupt Invervention or Lethal Pursuer, to either prevent spawn gens, or get to an early chase. If I hate dealing with strong main windows, I'll bring Bamboozle. Overall the goal is to improve, but also lower your MMR without afking. Once you reach a decent equilibrium, you are more likely to enjoy your matches.
For the specific questions.
Heal speeds - they only heal fast with other Survs present, if you disrupt the healing you get 2 people in chase for the price of one. Set up a snowball, instead of relying on 1 injured Surv to be enough pressure. At the start of the match if you know where multiple people are, get the hit then swap targets.
Fast Gens - Figure out the why. Is it Hyperfocus Stakeout with toolboxes? Don't chase near people without actually going after them. It is 3 gens popping 90s into the match? Don't commit on that first chase as hard, do a bit of catch and release. Alternatively, try to corral the Survs towards other gens, in order to scare the other Survs off. Also if it is the multi gen pop that hurts, Deadlock is very effective at countering that.
Kicking - It sounds like you learned bad habits from OC/CoB, and had your kill rate inflated by using them if kicking a gen would ever be the first thought. You basically only want to kick things that won't lose you something else. If you have Eruption/Pop, it may be worth it to kick. If you just downed a Surv nearby, it may be worth it to kick. Otherwise it often isn't worth losing distance in chase. The sooner you start to chase, the sooner they go down, the sooner they are on hook, the sooner the Survs are pressured to respond.
Playing both sides is invaluable in understanding what the opposition will do. When you know your enemy, they likely won't be able to surprise you. This lets you know say the 0 hook Meg is most likely to go for the rescue in a normal match. You could plan on intercepting her, or going after one of the more hooked Survs. When you see someone cleansing dull totems or opening chests, they likely have a tome. That is basically free slowdown, so let them search/cleanse, as if they don't feel too pressured, they won't focus on gens instead. If that same 0 hook Meg plays gen jockey all game, she probably also has a gen tome, so focus fire her, she probably brought things to make gens go quicker.