mizark3
mizark3
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@Sandt21 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3414060#Comment_3414060
Wouldn't that make survivor que times shyrocket?
I would rather play a game I'm going to have fun in, than be forced to slog it out hating every minute. I play games to have fun, not torture myself.
Also seconding the Killer ban feature, maybe also give Killers get Realm ban feature. I'd say 1 per 5 released for both would be a good rate. Also including a 'previous killler/map' slot. That way it would automatically just pick the last few maps/killers you went against. I know they added a single map repeat, but I would expand it to roughly equal the killer ban Survs would get.
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@Spectralfx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3414409#Comment_3414409
I disagree with pretty much everything you said but honestly, refuting your points seems impossible as you don't even acknowledge the gap between the best and worst kilker.
I consider you wrong on all account.
Back in the days the data was collected, Overcharge/CoB was around to help.
Right now Survivors are still running their "nerfed" perks just fine and the changes to healing did barely anything as survivors simply rush gens without healing in the first place.
The game favors survivors 100%
I never said Trapper was equal in power to Blight, or anything to that effect. I was saying the perks, killer choice, and addon choice are part of the player's tool part of the equation. The skill part of the equation is a separate part. A player with equal skill in Blight and Trapper will be more effective with Blight, because of the stronger tools, not they have more skill now that they swapped killers.
Overcharge/CoB hadn't quite been caught on yet to killer gen-kick hostage holding (in spirit) builds at the time of the stats. I would consider that to artificially give wins, as an ape with a spacebar could win with those perks in that state. If someone had the tools to make people ragequit, and only one side had access to that level of tools, I'd say that side would be favored. Also nerfed DS became a laughing stock overnight.
The only facet of favoring survivors, is because the tools a comp SWF can bring are greater than the tools a comp Killer can bring. I haven't seen a Syringe or BNP in at least 10 games, if not more. Most people bring meme builds or some form of gimmick for their tome. I'm just confused in what world you think the average DBD match strictly favors Survs. Now the top 0.1%, but normal everyday matches. I mean heck, I literally just got done with a Pig match on Borgo and won with 1 gen remaining. If one of the most hated maps (for M1 Killers in particular) still allowed me a victory with Pig, I can't think the game is only favored for Survs.
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@Spectralfx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3414287#Comment_3414287
those data are from like, October 22.
It's dated.
and the 60% is for certain specific killers and there is quite a gap between let say, Wesker and Trapper.
Yes, but I qualified that by saying that was the most recent data available. If BHVR released anything kill stats wise since then I am unaware of it. Even then, the lowest kill rate is still above 50%, which doesn't refute my point. Also since you didn't mention anything else, I take it there is nothing else to disagree with?
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@Spectralfx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3412607#Comment_3412607
I would agree if there wasn't the variable of survivor's skill level being such an unpredictable match between games.
At a competitive level, according to a recent series of games organized by Oz for comparaisons between top tier players...
you can see that without addons, the survivors are heavily favored no matter what.
so when people make the bold claim that "good killers play without addons just fine" I roll my eyes because that just means they are playing against bad survivors 100% if they are successful.
The game just isn't designed to favor killers in the first place.
Without addons Survs heavily favored - Yeah! All you need is 5k+ hours and to be in comms with every other Surv with a shared understanding of callouts, I'm sure every match has every player like that /s. That's clearly not indicative of 99.99% of matches, so it's clearly irrelevant. If the addonless Killer only can win against 'bad Survs', but wins 80% of the time regardless, the majority of Survs are bad (in comparison to the Killer player). If you want to target the top .0000001% of gameplay, that is what custom matches are for. That is such a disingenuous argument to compare that 4-man comp SWF to normal matches and balance. To be fair, the 'Results Equation' would also have Killer Effectiveness subtracted by the opponents' Skill+Tools, (or Survivor Effectiveness) but the ratio between what the Killer's Tools/Skill was the main point of my previous post. Also even in that Otz vid it showed Skull Merchant, a Killer commonly thought to be on the weaker side, destroy a comp squad when fully decked out. The Knight player only had ~1k hours, so it isn't nearly as fair of a comparison.
Game isn't designed to favor killers - I would agree if there was no Bloodlust, no Entity window block, no basekit permanent pallet breaks, and below an average 50% kill rate. The kill rate is balanced along 60%, so that would necessitate the game being Killer sided to an extent. Now to be fair, the 60% also includes the inflated kill counts from facecamps that guarantee a kill, among other things. The Survivors may have won the match, but one of the Survs dies in the process. Ultimately the game is Killer sided, (and even top 5% MMR per their last shown stats), and the only time the game isn't Killer sided, you have to deal with multiple decimal points to indicate how few people are there (eg. top .001%).
Here are the last stats I am aware being shown if you'd like to verify my 60% balanced kill rate claim.
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@Spectralfx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3410298#Comment_3410298
You are getting two completely different concept mixed up.
Skill vs efficiency.
A bad player, imo, is a "nice guy killer" that waste his entire match aiming for a 12 Hook match that he is going to lose 100% of the time.
A good killer (with skills) is one that get the job done by tunneling a Survivor out of the game ASAP so he gets to actually play the game.
Results are the sum of skill + tools. (or R = S+T)
If your tools get you 10% of the way, then you had near exclusive skill. (R =100%, T=10%, S=90%)
If your tools get you 90% of the way, then you had nearly no skill. (R=100%, T=90%, S=10%)
If 2 people are accomplishing the same goal, lets say a 4k, then the person who brought no perks (all other tool and opposition variables being the same) had more skill than the decked out person. If a perkless addonless Clown wrecks my fellow Survivors and I, I'm going to be impressed. If a C33 Alch Ring Blight with Meta perks gets 3 kills, I'm going to find them pathetic failing to prevent the 4th getting out through the gates.
If the tools I brought give me 6 hooks practically for free, and I get 10 hooks total, my skill gave me 4 hooks. If another person's tools give them 3 hooks practically for free, but reached 9 hooks, their skill gave them 6 hooks. That person has 50% more skill than I, even though I got better results.
I'd say the facecamping Bubba with a 4k (because the Survivors tried rescuing to see if they could) has far less skill than nearly anyone else with a 3k. The Bubba might have more wins/kills/effective results, but they lack skill.
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I'm not sure why they changed the wiggle skill checks from a perfect 16s->15s hitting every great. Especially since the new greats are unnoticeable (on both ends). To be fair, I haven't tried using Boil Over after the Skill check change. As Killer though, even Boil Over feels underwhelming other than the drop bonus progression. I think they should revert the wiggle greats to give bonus wiggle progress back to the perfect 15s instead. It felt useful enough without preventing normal hooks in the majority of cases. I don't even want to wiggle now other than for the (pathetically small) Survival BP.
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@leviivel said:
it feels like a third of my matches recently have had a DC or 2 because my teammates went down too quickly or if I’m playing a killer people “don’t like” (Skull Merchant, Knight, Nemesis, few others) and I down them too quickly they DC.
i constantly hear the argument of “I paid for the game, if I’m not enjoying it, I am allowed to DC.” Which would seem like a fine argument in other games with larger lobbies, but in DBD with there only being 5 people in a lobby, a single DC can ruin the experience for everyone. other people paid for this aswell.
now, if you have a phobia and you have to DC, that’s excusable and BHVR definitely needs to add something to counter this like an option of changing sound, model tweaks, removal of textures. (Not preventing you from queuing against them cuz otherwise it would create abysmal queue times for certain characters).
but other than those 2 arguments, there’s never anything else other than: “my internet went out, so I shouldn’t get a penalty” which yeah, fair also, but is there really any other argument?
without DC penalties, casual players trying to learn new killers that others despise would make the game abysmal to play for them. People would DC the moment they get downed, killers will DC at the slightest inconvenience, the whole game would crumble without DC penalties.
incase you’re wondering, I think players should be free to DC without penalty after about 20+ minutes have passed.
I wouldn't go as far as no DC penalties, but I think maybe 1-5 freebies a week (on top of the current system) wouldn't be bad. If there were freebies you could use them in the case of a 4 minute bleedout Killer, or a Plague when you brought a heal tome, or a clear bully squad when you are not in the mood, or all gens done and 0 hooks. You clearly are not going to have a good time, but you can't use them willy-nilly. Also the stats on the freebies could be telling of problems people just put up with, and have their time held-hostage in spirit. Those stats could help work on addressing those problems, instead of leaving them to fester and cause the player to hard quit the game instead of DC the single match.
One alternative instead of freebies, would be a Killer ban though (1 per 5 Killers released, and an option for 'previous killer'). I despise going against the same Killer over and over and over again. I also dislike Killers like Plague/Oni/Myers where you die because a teammate gave them their power. Not to say people only DC because they don't like the Killer, but a little can go a long way. I'd argue a DC is typically from reaching an 'eff this' moment. Building up bad experiences can make someone reach this 'eff this' moment sooner. Sadly that only addresses the Survivor sided DCs, but I'd argue Killer DCs at least hard ends the match, so they are less of an issue. Similar with the freebie DC idea, the stats on Killer bans can be used to address flaws.
@SeaFlower said:
Because they’re players that don’t care about ruining the game for the other players.
I know, there are too many Nurse players /s. More specifically if a player does something because 'the other side's fun isn't my responsibility', that justification can be used for Killer player's actions just as a Survivor player's actions, including DCs. That doesn't make a DC allowed, as the bans and game rules indicate. I would argue some level of fun is everyone's responsibility for every other player, since it is a game, and we play games for fun. If you go against someone who doesn't want you to have any fun, then you stop playing with them. If the game keeps forcing you to play with that unfun aspect, you stop playing that game entirely.
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@philward1953 said:
The fact that we're even discussion whether or not the game should LET people get to this level is dumb as heck. If the player plays well enough, then they deserve it. The game doesn't dictate who wins or loses, just want they're given in terms of a map and such. The dude played well, go cry.
We can talk about how powerful/balanced Blight it, but that's a separate discussion entirely. The same goes for maps, perks, etc.
But, to say the game straight up shouldn't allow someone to achieve that success is like saying "Okay, we need to put a cap on how many times a killer or survivor can win".
Stop harassing the player, and go back to looking at game-balance.
Props to the player, I doubt it was easy.
Played well = win - The issue with this, is it discounts how well the Survivors played in opposition of this 1000 wins.
Blight balance is separate - I would say the opposite, Blight being this extremely imbalanced, is what allowed for 1000 wins. Could the same player do 1000 wins on Legion? If they could get 1000 wins (in a row) on Legion also, then I would cede that point.
Shouldn't allow someone to achieve that success - It truly shouldn't set up Survivors to be the NPCs in the Blight's single player helicopter minigun experience. The Survivor's never had a chance to begin with is the problem. That is fine in single player, as the AI is meant to be a punching bag for the player, but in PVP, both sides (in good design) need a reasonable chance of success. Even if the Survivors had a 1/100 chance of winning, the odds of a Killer player losing at least 1 time by 1000 games is 99.99568%. That is beyond impropable, so it is far more likely the Survivors didn't even have a 1/1000 chance at winning. Would you queue up in any game if you had less than 1/1000 chance of winning?
@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3411157#Comment_3411157
First, it's 60% win rate for all players on average. There are going to be individual players with 80-90% kill rates and players with 10-20% kill rates, because they are outliers to the average.
This is a bit of a misnomer. The Kill rate is 60%, not the win/loss rate. Best I understand, they balance around 60% kills, because it is the closest approximate to a 50/50 win rate (3+ escape/kill, and a null for ties). This can be seen in different areas, such as how a hatch escape is a tie, and a facecamp for a minimum 1k can be guaranteed on numerous killers, or easily risked by the majority anyways. That endgame facecamp 1k counts as both a kill (individual win) and a loss (match loss).
@Veinslay said:
Why is it that coordinated SWF can literally break the game to the point that the game is unwinnable for the vast majority of killer players and that's considered okay because "YoU BaReLy RuN iNtO ThOsE TeAmS EvEr" but the same can't be said for a phenomenal Blight player? We have to nerf Blight now because of one guy?
The degree shows whether it is beating the odds through skill, or abuse of a fundamental problem. 10 wins? Reasonable, I can win 10 coin flips. 100? Sketchy, is the coin weighted, maybe pure luck? 1000? Blatant problem, something is clearly wrong. Now to be fair, some people have claimed the streamer in question did it to show the problem of 'tunneling', however they specifically only showed the problem of 'Blight tunneling'. If they could reach 1000 wins on any other Killer also, then it would show tunneling is the problem, but they only were able to show Blight doing it. That is why it is a problem.
The effectiveness of Killers should be flattened to help the problem on both ends. That way D tier Killers could have a greater chance against those SWF extremists, but Survivors should also be able to have a greater chance against those Blight/Nurse extremists. Essentially balance the Killers so that S/D tiers no longer exist (in our current understanding), and we can work with A-C. The B-tier should be the goal for a perfect 50/50 split for wins of each side (or the 60% kill rate they like to use in their stats).
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
Just a random idea that I had.
Ya know those breakable walls in the restrooms of Midwich that have a passage way from the first floor to the second floor. I wonder if making those open would make the map better for both sides.
One of my hugest issues with Midwich is that it feels incredibly slow to go from Point A to Point B, and having that area open makes it easier for Killers to pressure Generators and easier for Survivors to traverse.
The issue is that, like many other people, we just really do not want to take the time to break those walls when we have more important things to do.
But, as per usual with all my posts, I want to hear your thoughts on this, would yall prefer it if Midwich had the breakable walls in the restroom already open? If so, why or why not?
Permanently opening the bathroom as a 4th path up would slightly favor Survivor. Given this map is (mostly) Killer sided, this would help reach a more fair center. I'd be totally fine with this happening, as well as Badham only having 1 variant to squeeze the most garbage maps for each side closer to the center.
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It is still great, just not broken OP as it was before. I think a decent QoL buff for it would be allowing 25% self-care in the boon. That way when the team can see you are going to heal in 64s they will get over there instantly to heal you in 8s instead. To make up for the simple buff I would remove the CoH aura reveal except when healing. I was playing in matches with CoH and it almost worked like a pseudo Wiretap, as you could tell when (injured) people are in chase in the zone. That aura aspect might be too much in telling people where the Killer (likely) is, especially when paired with Shadow Step.
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@IWasLrft2Die said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3410245#Comment_3410245
Non hook grabs- I agree with most of yours but the Vaulting grab is the worst one imo (worse than hooks even).
Hook dives- I disagree any killer can just counter it. Most killers don't have the ability to commit 3 hits by an exit gate (1 for unhooker, 1 on unhooked bodyblocking, and 1 more for either target). You don't need coms to coordinate that at all. I'd consider those to be very free saves if the killer can't capitalize on survivors making a bad move (doesn't have to be a grab, but there should be something above a basic hit).
Survivor entitled-not a free kill, they are on the hook so obviously the killer got them there. Getting a 1k or 2k is by no means a win by any measure. Someone being able to defend a hook is not the same discussion of "killers hold always get a 4k".
Penalize facecamping- yeah I agree it's not fun being facecamped or having a teammate facecamped, but that's just by design of the game unfortunately. If killers can't defend hooks anymore since most can't get 3 hits in such a short span of time there has to be compensation for this.
I'm all for getting rid of hook grabs if there is a good solution to punish bad unhooks (remove built in BT maybe? although the idiotic unhooker should be punished).
Personally I like the injured medium vault grab, as a method to save STBFL stacks. It basically only gets real value for M1 Killers, so that seems fine. Injured pallet grab is strange to me though, as I thought it is supposed to be the equivalent of a fast vault. No big deal, as it doesn't strictly encourage undesirable gameplay other than maybe a shack basement hook into pallet vault against Trapper. That is so hyper-specific that its fine imo.
I don't really consider endgame facecamps a serious problem, and if hook grabs only existed in endgame, I would take that as an improvement over what we currently have. Even then, in my normal Killer games if the gens are completed before I can get 7+ hooks, I lost (at least in my mind). Maybe an exception if I brought NWO or have some form of gate trapping. 7+ hooks is usually enough to get 1 or 2 hooks on each Surv, and maybe a kill. Once you reach that point the game is basically won as Killer, so I typically ease up off the gas and try to ensure I get a 12 hook game if possible. Not that I let people do gens in my face, just I'd take the 1 hook David over the 2 hook Claudette if they were duoing a gen I ran across.
I'm still unsteady about 'bad unhooks', because the Killer is the only player with absolute control of the safe quality of an unhook. If there was a basekit mechanic to address that to make it more a battle between each side, then sure. A Killer intercepting an 'unsafe' unhook is already getting a free hit typically, so I feel like that largely addresses itself. Instead of having to risk getting mindgamed at a loop, or even forcing a pallet drop for depletion of macro resources, you can get the free hit instead. Plus the sooner someone is off hook, the sooner they can be put back on, even if they get rescued 5s into the hook, healed, then gen tapped in my face. That happens so much I'm surprised people don't play safer. I basically have no problem with tunneling as long as the Survivor (willingly) did a conspicuous action. I understand if they accidentally tapped M2 from nerves with a 1 charge medkit, that doesn't feel good, but stopping gen regression, doing totems, completing a heal, all of those I consider fully fair game.
Also I understand the Killer got the Surv on hook, but since the game is designed for Survs to go down eventually, that isn't exactly a fair comparison. Especially if you get hooked and tunneled in a deadzone, or facecamped from the start. The person may have gone down, but they only went down once.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3409798#Comment_3409798
I realized another problem of the game is 4 survivors alive are too strong but 3 survivors are too weak. Reason why tunneling is always the strong strat.
I really think 4 survivors alive should do Gen slower (75% may be?), and 3 survivors alive should do 133%, and 2 do 200%
One problem with that, is how pressure is applied when a Survivor is unable to progress the game. (Slugged without a self-pickup, or on hook.)
In a normal match you can think of 4 Survivors progressing gens when they aren't pressured by something. At the start of the match 0 Survivors are pressured, so there is 4 gen progression points. When the first Survivor enters chase, it drops to 3. When that Survivor gets hooked, someone has to get off gens to rescue the hooked Surv, dropping it further to 2. If the Killer chases the would-be rescuer, someone else needs to hop off a gen dropping it again to 1. If you have only 3 Survivors, those pressure numbers are all decreased by 1, making the chase of a would-be rescuer a death spiral with no one progressing gens.
I definitely agree that 4 Survivors uninterrupted on gens (or even 3) yield too much strength for Killer to handle for an extended period of time. Typically, skilled Killers can quickly find someone through perk value, or a crow, or macro map awareness (do people usually hide in a bush on Dead Dawg?). Players newer/weaker at Killer lack the skill or perk crutch (like I use Lethal Pursuer on most Killers) to prevent the game from snowballing out of control in the earlygame. I wouldn't be against a rancor styled loud noise for both sides to show the spawns of the opposition's position, as long as charge based killers started on cooldown (Blight/Nurse in particular). This would also heavily encourage people to not be AFK at the start, as I hate when my soloq teammates give the Killer a free injury or hook because they left. This might be a slight nerf to Stealth Killers, so maybe have it be an optional toggle on the Killer's end. This way those charge Killers could also rely on their ability to find people if they wanted to start with all their charges.
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@Spectralfx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3410274#Comment_3410274
if you think its a lack of skill think again.
watch competitive gameplay and you'll see certain killer do it.
tunneling Camping and slugging has always been taboo from the perspective of survivors and they always try to shame the killer for it when in reality, these strats are how you win games and its a fact.
agree to disagree.
If someone reaches the peak of a mountain with riding in a helicopter, or climbing by their bare hands, I'm gunna say the person using their bare hands put forth more effort and skill. Theoretically I could just DDOS my opponents and win too, but that isn't my skill shining through, that would actually be cheating/breaking the law. The path of most effectiveness often is also the path of least resistance. I'm still going to recognize and respect the person with more skill, not the person with better results.
You don't need to have an exclusive perspective of Survivor to realize how easy it is to down someone off hook in a deadzone, especially if the Killer you use has lethality. I can tell when I want to facecamp someone to death for sandbagging their teammate. The other 2 Survs didn't know what went down, so they might still try for rescues, and I can just easily tunnel the jerk out.
Edit: I would argue (results = skill + effectiveness of the tools you bring), more often than not, the weight of the tools is heavier than the weight of the skill.
In short win (or results) =/= skill in DBD.
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I'd extend DH's duration to 1s, but make it provide Endurance only against Special Attacks. This would help flatten the effective range of Killers so that you can't use DH against Trapper or Clown, but can still use it against Blight and Nurse. (To that end I would also make Spirit's M1 out of phase be considered a Special Attack as long as you would get the score event, or roughly 3-5s.) This would make it so as Survivor you might risk a dead perk against a Killer, but instead of the perk being useless against a strong Killer (EG. Healing vs Plague), you only run the risk against the weaker Killers. It would roughly balance itself out.
CoH is perfect, arguably with a 25% self-care speed so you could still solo heal, but people would be incentivized to heal you instead of allowing you to take 64s to heal yourself.
Medkits I would have kept Green's self-speed boost and at 16 charges as well as Purple's 32 charges. It would still take 24 charges to full heal yourself, so you would need to bring an add-on with them for selfish healing. Also Pharmacy would need to be adjusted to put the 8 charge bandage add-on also, to still allow for a self-heal. I also would make the speed boost add-ons have an equal altruistic boost as the universal, so altruistic med-kits are more incentivized even in the add-ons.
As a side change I would revert both sides' double nerfs done in 6.1.0, down to single nerfs instead. Eg. Pop buffed back to 20% max, DS at 5s, Iron Will back to 100% OR non-exhaustion, Ruin back to 200% OR not be removed on Survivor death.
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@Spectralfx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3409384#Comment_3409384
Oh fair.
Can we take away the red bar survivors get when their actions are being tampered with?
Surely they are smart enough to see the bar move slower than usual :)
And on the topic of camping, while I strongly discourage strictly "face camping" (as it limits your situationnal awareness) you do know that good killers sometimes camp to force survivors to do a 2 man rescue, right?
You know that's its a valid strategy in some given scenario right?
Or are you one of the interesting folk who just call anyone within 20 m of your hook some profanities after the match?
Personally I would characterize forcing a 2 man rescue through camping a lack of skill, as they weren't good enough to pressure the Survivor team enough without resorting to the easier methods. The more difficult the means, the more skill it takes to execute. I know when I fail as Killer and I gotta resort to cheesier methods for a 'win', that isn't my skill talking, it is my lack of skill. I'm not playing for money, so I have no reason to sweat it out to that extreme other than if I felt as though I needed to 'prove to myself' I could win. In knowing I could win without trying, I take the gamble and try to win without it. When I see a Killer engage in that (outside of tourneys), I can see they lack the self-confidence in their capacity to improve. Maybe there would be cause if they needed to get MMR/'gold/iri rank' for a seasonal cosmetic, but since there is no such feature, it is meaningless. (The monthly pip based BP is penalized in attempting [face]camping, so that can't be a reason.)
I only get frustrated at it when playing with friends. Also when trying to introduce new people to the game, and they are then denied the ability to play because they haven't had the chance to play enough to improve. They get a bad experience and (in about half my friend group) get turned off of the game forever, never to touch it again.
There are many 'valid strategies' but 4 minute bleeding out everyone as a Knockout Hag or Nurse is hardly enjoyable (as either side, as Killer has to babysit the dying Survivors to ensure they die, so both sides kinda can, kinda can't entirely alt-tab and do anything else). Just because a strategy doesn't break the explicit rules, doesn't mean it isn't unenjoyable and/or in need of some form of fixing. A 4-man SWF comp-dropping on the Garden of Pain that they sent me to with all 4 equipped with BNPs is also an immensely unenjoyable experience. Luckily they recently fixed Medkits/CoH and 'gen hostage' perks, so we aren't without hope in fixing these extremes.
Back to the topic though, I certainly wouldn't be opposed to the hook timer being a literal timer, instead of the bar it is currently. Both sides could see an actual 60s timer start where the hook bar is, and could better gauge their actions (I personally would like 2 decimal places for the timer). I would say Killer ended should show a symbol to indicate the pause, and Survivor sided should show the extended timer next to the real timer. Those perks are intended to punish camping, so ensuring it is punished harsher with more accurate information would be for the better. Anyone in Reassurance range of a hook is getting hit by the Killer anyways, (outside of 2 story maps) so it forces a chase instead of the non-interaction of camping.
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@IWasLrft2Die said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3409379#Comment_3409379
Not every situation is face camping when you can grab btw.
Plus, even as a survivor player you are just asking for people to dive dumb hook grabs (which was more of a thing prior to built in BT and ot was awful).
And on the other hand, why should survivor always be entitled to an unhook? There should be additional risk making a risky play. Survivors have a choice to engage in the unhook game where they can choose not to and prioritize the actual objective as well. Killers are protecting their own objective.
Facecamping is definitely already penalized, just not in the way people want. You get a lower score if you facecamp and if the survivors just do the gens rather than engage with the facecamping killer and the killer will get a 1k (~8000 score). Does it sucks being the camped survivor? Yes, but survivors don't have to play into it.
Non-hook grabs - Yeah, and I have no problem with any of those. (Gen grabs, sabo grabs, totems, chests, etc.) The main circumstance where hook grabs come into play is facecamping though, or at least some degree of camping. Yes, theoretically the Killer could run to the opposite corner of the map, chase the bush crouching Claudette back to the opposite corner (with the hooked Survivor), then grab when she tries to rescue, but that typically doesn't happen in realistic cases. At least some degree of camping must be present for a hook-grab to occur.
Hook Dives - Which is only possible when healthy. If the Killer cleverly uses their power, or spreads pressure correctly, they can negate this possibility entirely. Even in this circumstance where the Killer would be denied a hook grab, they still get a hook trade.
Survivor entitled to unhook - I would argue back why a Killer would be entitled to a hook being an automatic free-kill? Is a Killer entitled to a 4k either by slugging for it, or what if the game just ended on the final Survivor escaping to 'tell the tale' when the third Surv died? Neither side is entitled to a free win. This would make a Killer have to earn the kill moreso than they currently have to, (by forcing them to engage in the '3-strikes you're out' hook mechanic,) while fixing an edge-case problem. Removing hook-grabs wouldn't prevent the killer from slugging the entire team and hooking them. Also the risk has no back and forth, it is strictly Killer-sided. Other facets of the game have both sides have to risk something in order to gain something, and shouldn't be rewarded for doing nothing.
Facecamping's 'penalties' - The issue is how this is bad design. In a versus multiplayer game, the fun is typically driven through competitive interactions through opposite sides, or cooperative interactions with your side. Interactions with others is key, otherwise you could just play a single-player game. When a Killer facecamps, they deny interaction from the other side. The winning move is 'not to play', or more accurately hold M1 for 120/450s. I don't know about you, but I don't queue up to ONLY hold M1 for the sparkly generator lights. This means a Survivor craving fun, will likely try to risk a rescue. The thrill, is in the interaction. The Killer player is weaponizing or holding the fun hostage against the Survivors. This also is a low risk action. Typically risk should equal the reward. This is where people often make the claim 'optimize the fun out of the game', as this is a low risk high reward circumstance. Plus, many people have basic human empathy, and wish that their hooked Survivor teammate could 'play the game' also. Also most facecamps from the onset result in a 2k minimum, not a 1k, if the killer can abuse 1-shots. Heck, even in soloq with M1 killers they can get frequently get 2k+ with facecamping, due to the lack of coordination. Removing healthy hook-grabs is one way they could meaningfully address facecamping, without impacting any major other facets, such as 90s hook timers. The Survivors would know to just hook trade at 55-59s, and Killers won't have any more (meaningful) incentive to facecamp.
Also as I said in my previous post, hook-grabs are based more on latency, not even skill. I shouldn't have an advantage playing with a friend who lives somewhere else in dealing with unhooks. (Albeit, at the cost of chase lag hits.)
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@Spectralfx said:
I mean, it could be nice if both survivors AND killer had access to that info.
That way killers who are smart could go "aw crap gotta bounce".
The smart Killers already know to bounce in the first place, as well as anyone being able to see the bar not moving anymore.
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@IWasLrft2Die said:
I'd be okay with removing hook grabs if there were an equivalent for being punished for attempting to make a grab on the killers face (such as exposed for a brief window etc). Not sure what's best though
Why should facecamping be rewarded in the first place?
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Same for me. When I was playing during the day (on Thursday) I got hard DC-ed from the game about once every 2 hours. A couple of the times I was in the main menu/searching for match, so it didn't impact my 'DC ban timer'. Unfortunately there was a Slinger match I had where I brought BPS (as well as one of the Survivors) and was just waiting for the last person to leave, then wham, I got DC-ed. I'm still mad at that Bill lol, just leave my guy lol.
There were also a bunch of matches with ludicrously laggy Killers. There was no normal match lag like when trying to heal Survivors or tap a gen, just Killers getting absurd hits.
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Hook grabs only incentivize facecamping. If the known outcome of a facecamp is repeated hook trades, it won't be successful, and done less. When people can gamble on a grab, and get it, they are rewarded disproportionately to the effort and skill involved. There is 0 skill to facecamping, and forces a garbage interaction based far far far more on latency than a mindgame between both sides. When I play with my friend on the other side of the states, I know I can go for the hook trades a lot better because I have minimum 100 latency. My start-stopping is unpredictable and forces a hook trade, which is always how the interaction should go. ( I also get hit by the Killer with a lot of bogus hits, but that's the risk in playing with friends.)
If a Killer deciding not to play the game and decides to force facecamping, they should only do so when they guaranteed they earned the pressure on the Survivors. If the Killer failed to injure would be rescuers in advance, or otherwise create an advantage for themselves, why should they deserve a reward for NOT playing the game? That would be like saying the corner crouching Claudette deserves a gate escape for not interacting with the Killer or the Gens and hiding out the 2 minutes after hatch is closed. "Yeah she touched a gen for 30s before she started hiding, so she deserves it" is what anyone in favor of hook grabs should logically be OK with for the Survivor equivalent. After all, she did a real good job preventing crows from appearing over her head.
Also anyone who says "don't go for unsafe rescues", I ask you who is in control of the 'safe' quality of the rescue. I'd say it exclusively lies in the hands of the Killer. If a Killer makes it always unsafe, then that is the equivalent of saying never rescue. Never rescue is the worst design for a multiplayer game. If it were a single player grand strategy game, sure, that's fine, but a multiplayer game where the desired gameplay is interaction between both sides, makes it bad.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3405398#Comment_3405398
You make some fair points and I'm not saying you are in the wrong.
But... even if tunneled out that really doesn't mean your opponent was out to ruin your fun its just part of the game.
You appear to have built up in your head this list of good and bad play and you'll punish or reward opponents and players accordingly with how the conform to your list of good and bad play.
Which you rightly identify as... well... delusional.
Now play however you want and if dolling out a sense of justice increases your enjoyment of the game then go for it, but keep this in mind and I can't stress this enough...
Doesn't matter what happens in game none of it means your opponents or team mates are bad people. What happens in game should stay in game.
Yeah if I every have 'choice words' for any player, it only stays in the post-game chat, never outside of game messaging.
The only time I have ever contacted someone out of game was when someone falsely accused me (and all Survs for that matter) of cheating. (The greatest compliment!) I was checking the other profiles to make sure there wasn't like 'VAC Ban 180 days ago' or other red flags of legit cheating, and I hit continue, but I saw the guy said another paragraph as the screen was swapping. I asked him if it was important, as I didn't want him to think I was ignoring him. He promptly blocked me because apparently it wasn't.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3405439#Comment_3405439
DS doesn't work basekit. It's useless when you know about it. So what, 30 sec? I can just slug you, push survivors from gens before hooking you after 30 sec.
The ~30s is enough to (mostly) recover, so if an ally is nearby they can quickly pick up while the Killer leaves for a bit. If the Killer immediately picks up, they need a 2nd/3rd hit to finally get the real down. If the Survivor didn't get hit for Deep Wound, they can hide in a locker to force a grab or wait out the 30s. If the team realizes the locker attempt, that is a free ~90s on gens (30 per Surv). Each directly penalizes gen time without adjusting the modifiers.
I did read a bit of your other response, and thought of a counter to one of the counters. To prevent bodyblocking, just have no collision while no conspicuous actions are taken. Conspicuous actions can then also determine whether what degree of penalty (or which side rather) to apply. Is it the 2nd hook total on the same Survivor and they did a conspicuous action? Then it doesn't count towards the penalty nor the benefit. That way Killers can intentionally chase the rescuer for the bonus, but not penalize them if that unhooker Survivor greedily taps a gen in their face. Survivors could risk this by crouching at the gen and not progressing the game, but the Killer would then clip through them to know they aren't helping their team.
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@Sava18 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3405386#Comment_3405386
I like playing killer, but my want to improve in any video game will always be there for the most part.
When I talk about skill I mean chase imparticular. I don't tunnel because I the survivor I am chasing to show me all of their capabilities with what they are given, I don't camp because that's boring. Pretty any comp strats are relatively skilless.
If you still want to focus on this game, I would still recommend the OhTofu scrims (group). Just don't tell your prospective opponents that you plan on not tunneling or camping (you could even say you are trying to play around them playing around camping/tunneling). Alternatively you can still let them know, and just 1v1 each member of a team to practice chases instead of going against the full squad.
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@utm said:
To start, I will say that I have been playing dbd since 2019 and have nearly 3k hours in game. I mainly play solo queue survivor + some killer and swf. I'm here to provide suggestions to improve the game.
I was motivated to make this post because I will likely not be playing anymore due to how the game design has been directed in the last year or so, and how what was a fun game for me turned into something disappointing.
There are 3 main reasons for this:
1) tunnelling being the optimal strategy for killers
2) matchmaking & the swf / solo queue imbalance
3) poor timing of in-game events
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TLDR: incorporate a simple mechanic that rewards killers for unique hooks / rewards survivors when their team experiences tunnelling
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Problems:
1) It is clear that tunnelling is the best strategy to win as killer. As a survivor, it is not fun when you get tunnelled, particularly when your team is winning, and a killer decides to tunnel to get an easy win. I can understand that it's nice to have an easier way to win against a good team, but this ties into matchmaking issues (see pt. 2).
Mechanics that encourage players to be eliminated early from a game are avoided/ameliorated in other games (think among us, most online shooters, board games, etc.), precisely because they don't allow a player to participate fully in the game. Nobody likes this in any game, yet it's been encouraged by game mechanics in dbd, especially in the last year. See the (second) DS nerf (the main thing that survivors had to prevent themselves from getting tunnelled).
2) The steps to improve the balance between swf / solo queue were a great step for dbd. Still, the imbalance between swf and solo queue is present. This is exaggerated in solo queue, as teammates in a single match have a wide variety of experience levels. Anyone who has played the game, killer or survivor, knows that variability in match skill is very high. I've seen BHVR employees on here saying that most matches feature MMRs that are close. This suggests that there is a problem with MMR calculation (or not enough people playing the game). MMR should reflect abilities in chases, gen pressure efficiency, and general high level strategy (which is likely only loosely correlated with kills/escapes, due to tunnelling meta). Playing against killers that are not experienced in chases / gen pressure but still win due to tunnelling is demoralizing, and likely imbalances matchmaking. Improving MMR calculation should help with this.
3) This point features a number of design choices - namely hook state, healing, and gen times. Firstly, hook states are short given gen times + healing times. Killers can choose to face-camp the first survivor and will be guaranteed at least a 2k if played correctly (especially with the increase in gen times last summer - the math is straightforward). This isn't an engaging way to play for either side... This is exacerbated in solo queue, as doing gens / working together on unhooks is hard to coordinate.
The updated healing changes are mostly healthy for the game - COH was too powerful. The other changes were certainly interesting, given that kill rates are well above 50%. It will certainly be worse for solo queue players that have a hard time finding other teammates to get heals.
Finally, gen times - they are too variable. On one end of the spectrum, survivors can bring gen rushing perks and toolboxes / brand new parts, and on the other end of the spectrum, killers can multiple passive gen regression perks. For game health, the amount of variability in gen progression should be mainly affected by pressure from both sides (not items or perks).
There are other things that could be improved (killer imbalances, map rng, some perk combos, etc.) but I'm sure they've been discussed elsewhere.
___
Solution:
There is a very simple solution to greatly improve game health, and it's very easy to implement!
1) Decrease gen speed for each new unique hook (maybe 10% each)
2) Increase gen speeds greatly for 2nd and 3rd hooks on the same survivor (maybe ~10% and 45%, respectively, non-cumulative)
3) Finally, to ensure face-camping doesn't become meta: increase hook state times if killer is near hook
___
A mechanic like this would provide multiple benefits:
1) Killers are rewarded for spreading out hooks early to prevent gen speeds from increasing (i.e. early game tunnelling is naturally less effective / discouraged)
2) Survivors will be less effective at completing multiple gens early in the game, but more effective when a survivor is sacrificed (whereas currently, for example, escaping a 3v1 with 2 gens left is very improbable). This gives both sides a better chance at turning the tables throughout the game.
3) Matches will be less lopsided by weaker teammates, as consecutive hooks will increase gen speed.
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Consider this scenario with realistic (no tunnelling) hooking:
Initial gen speed: 100%
i) Survivors complete 1st gen when killer gets 1st unique hook (gen speed: 100%)
ii) Survivors complete 2nd gen when killer gets 3rd unique hook (gen speed: 80%)
iii) Survivors complete 3rd gen when killer gets 6th hook, two non-unique (gen speed: 90%)
iv) Survivors complete 4th gen when killer gets 8th hook, one survivor sacrificed, two 2nd stage (gen speed: 135%)
v) Survivors complete 5th gen when killer gets 10th hook, 2 survivors sacrificed, 2 2nd stage (gen speed: irrelevant)
Here, killers will have a large advantage in early game, making it easier to get hooks before gens are completed. Once many hooks are made, and a 3v1 is reached, survivors will have an advantage compared to the current 3v1 scenario. While this is a big speed increase for 3v1, the initial decrease should balance this, especially since a 4v1 has ~2 survivors on gens at all times, while a 3v1 usually only has 1.
___
Now, consider a scenario where the killer tunnels one survivor:
initial gen speed: 100%
i) Survivors complete 1st gen when killer gets 1st unique hook (gen speed: 100%)
ii) Survivors complete 2nd gen when killer gets 2nd hook on same survivor (gen speed: 110%)
iii) Survivors complete 3rd gen when killer gets 3rd hook, one survivor sacrificed (gen speed: 145%)
iv) Survivors complete 4th gen when killer gets 6th hook, one survivor sacrificed, 1 2nd stage (gen speed: 125%)
v) Survivors complete 5th gen when killer gets 10th hook, 2 survivors sacrificed, 2 2nd stage (gen speed: irrelevant)
In this case, survivors get a speed boost on gens when a killer tunnels, instead of the decrease they would experience when a killer does not tunnel. Here, when there are 2 gens left in a 3v1, the gen speed is now 145%.
___
I think implementing some sort of mechanic like this would greatly improve game health. Some notes:
- Of course the numbers I suggested are just guesses - they'd need to be optimized to make the game balanced.
- Matchmaking based on kills / escapes would be more reflective of ability to down survivors quickly / evade the killer, rather than your ability to tunnel one survivor / stop a killer from tunnelling (but matchmaking should still take into account efficiency)
- This would naturally lead to more balance between solo queue and swf
- The 3rd problem I listed would still exist, but would be much less exaggerated
___
Hope people like this idea! Suggestions / comments are more than welcome!
Agreed on the theory. Incentivizing unique hooks and not tunneling. For camping adjustments I think the first and last 10/15s should be normal, and the middle 40/30s should have half the hook kill rate if within 24m (and no Survivor closer than Killer to hook). This would still allow for leaving hook safely to reach a full 60s timer, and still also allow for penalizing genb4fren if Survs try to pump gens when the Killer isn't camping.
I don't think gen times is enough to disincentivize tunneling. I would argue for buffing DS back to 5s, and giving a basekit 3s DS for 30s off hook. The perk DS would only activate once, but the basekit version would activate each time. I feel as though 30s is enough for Survivor greed to be punished, as well as punishing hard tunneling in a deadzone, or double hitting off hook.
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@HugTechLover said:
Either backfill or they purposely have low MMR to bully low mmr killers.
Seconding the backfill like everyone else suggested, but hard doubt on MMR tanking. Do you think people are really going games back to back killing themselves? It is far more likely that is a SWF, and naturally lose (more) during soloq since they play more than the average. So (most of) their wins are during SWF, and (most of) losses during soloq, balancing out at an average 50/50 escape rate.
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@IWasLrft2Die said:
I never felt like it was a funny party game in the 6 years I've played. Its always been competitive feeling just by the very nature of a 4v1 game.
I do agree nurse is obnoxious since 95% of survivors tools don't work on her. You can do well with if you aren't experienced with her. I got 2 4ks today back to back using her and I've never played her. I'm also on console
You never thought a perkless/adept Clown versus a 4 slowdown Blight was in the same realm of effectiveness, did you? Also how many times have you played a map with 8 filler pallets in the middle then 2 on the same map the next time? That level of mismatched balance is why people call it a 'funny party game'. It is like playing Mario Kart but someone in 1st and 2nd can still get Stars or Triple Mushrooms at an elevated rate, while another player gets single Bananas even in 7th. Most people consider Mario Kart nowhere near balanced, but at least it follows a certain logic to rubber-band people to close gaps. People don't say it is non-competitive in that people aren't competing against one another, they say it in reference to the balance being non-competitive. It is just as silly as taking Smash seriously with the game designed around 20+ maps and items on, yet people restrict it to 0 items, 2/3 maps, and single digit playable fighters.
I do think all Killers should be flattened/squished in terms of effectiveness (not exclusively Nurse). To be clear, if we were to say Killers can range from S-D tier, then buffing D and nerfing S so that we only have A-C would be preferable. (Alternatively top 5/bottom 5). This would likely necessitate Nurse/Blight/Spirit to be touched upon, as well as Sadako/Trapper/Freddy. I do think the middle bracket feels just right, as well as many of what people consider C tier if we use the S-D range.
Also as a personal gripe, if Wesker gets to lag teleport Survivors backward on vaults when he hits with his power, Doctor should too. Doc's power is delayed enough to justify it.
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@sluc16 said:
How are you suppose to have any fun and gradually learn if you get nothing but experienced survivors and bully squads?
MMR is completely useless.
I mean when first learning anything new, the goal should be to learn as much as possible, not 'win'. Even then, I'm confused how you haven't picked anything up just by playing Survivor. Basic things like 'oh crap the Killer ran at us while we were grouped on a gen, now multiple of us have to run' or 'I'm currently the least hooked, so I should go for the rescue while the death hook Survivor pumps gens'. Knowing all of those minor facets give such a huge leg up on learning to play Killer, just because you know what the opposition is likely to do.
As far as MMR, yeah thats why people meme and call it 'escape-based matchmaking'. If you throw at endgame for the hook trade or die, then your MMR tanks, even though you did the fun thing and could have escaped. Many people unintentionally 'fix' their MMR by just playing to have fun, making newer Killers have to face omega juicers.
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I would love to see a top-down view of 'explored' tiles. Once you enter a tile you 'explore' it, and if you got close enough to a totem or gen or other trackable object, then it is shown on the top-down view of the map as well as aura highlighted as normal. I think tracking non-static features like Survivors and Killers should remain in the realm of the Key though.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3403662#Comment_3403662
Sure it doesn't hurt to be aware of why people may quit but you can't apply causality to those assumptions. People quit even when you aren't engaging in play others might consider scummy. Correlation doesn't equal causation.
Players are obligated to take responsibility for their own actions regardless of what BHVR do. But they don't have any obligations toward another player's fun because other players may not share their version of fun.
Define blatantly unenjoyable, It's just as likely the reason for players quitting is when their prospects of winning diminish, moreso than perceived unfun play. "Unfun play" usually gets used as a convenient excuse to justify quitting over loss and bolster the ego against having lost.
This goes doubly for people who just assume they'll be camped or tunneled because the killer doesn't immediately start leaving the hook.
Furthermore the term proxy camping is a such a ridiculous concept because making the hooked survivor part of your new gen patrol is a good idea, because if you don't find another survivor on a gen you're likely to find on near the hook, yet it also gets thrown into the "scummy play" excuse bag with the rest.
I'd go as far to say its just as valid a reason that people start to see more quitters simply because they get better at the game and start getting more downs which makes people quit more.
I think many people consider proxy-camping in the scummy realm, because it tends to be done by the same caliber of Killer that hard tunnels off hook and then claims 'why did you rescue the Survivor if it wasn't a safe rescue?'. If a Killer never allows for the opportunity for a safe rescue, then blames the opposing team for it, I would argue they are acting scummy.
This silly party game is best when everyone has a chance to play the game, and forcing someone to sit on hook for 2 straight minutes is hardly fun. I generally try to go into matches only doing what I would want done to me, but many people (on both sides) play without that basic empathy. When the Killer isn't a snowball Killer, and is 0 hooks at 3 gens remaining, I ease up on the gas and do totems or chests or co-op gens w/out Prove. Dude is just having a bad game, I know I've had them. On the other hand if its Oni (or other snowball Killer) or someone intentionally camping their 3-gen, their victory is always within grasp. I don't need to give them an easier time.
Sometimes when I'm Killer, and the Survivors start to genb4fren, I understand needing to camp the extra hook state in the final 15s of a hook stage. I typically don't like doing that though because the person I'm punishing isn't the person who is responsible. That is just one of the weird facets of the game. I usually try to focus out players that I would hate to have as a soloq teammate. My (delusional) hope is that they will stop being bad teammates, and start being good ones.
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@Sava18 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402621#Comment_3402621
I come from league, I want to improve my skill and I want survivors to be able to so as well. There are too many killers that deny skillful game play in this game.
If you want to take the path of continuous improvement and to face greater and greater challenges, you sure picked the wrong game. It isn't that the game is without skill, but the band of skill is so small it isn't worth the time and energy in developing mastery. That isn't to say there is no enjoyment to be found, just mastery over a game with so many core flaws is like trying to be a pro at Mario Kart.
If you like the 'macro' of the game more, I'd recommend Starcraft 2. There is still micro in managing combat units and spellcasters, but the grand strategy and countering your enemy is more so at play. This also has the advantage of 1v1, with more accurate matchmaking, and a loss is truly only your own fault. I believe the multiplayer is free also, but I may be mistaken.
If you like the 'micro' of the game more, I'd recommend Counter-Strike. There is still macro in mindgaming opponents and routing and travel times, but the precise aiming usually reigns supreme. This also has the advantage of working with others, with unit cohesion also being tantamount to your success, and rallying strangers from a losing game into a winning one is always exhilarating. There also is the rush of a 'clutch', or winning a 1v5 with the team cheering you on. I think this is free at the moment, but at one point ranked was locked behind a 'buy the game' paywall.
If you insist on sticking with this game, I'd just recommend sticking to scrims. OhTofu has the community scrim nights, and people also try to practice to be ready for scrim night or for their own improvement. You can join his Discord for no reason other than to play against other people intending to get better. The problem with taking DBD 'seriously', is how comp and soloq play differently. Comp encourages minimal interaction in favor of victory. Normal DBD is a video game where the interaction with your adversary is what drives the fun, otherwise it would be a single-player game instead. When you bring a comp mindset into soloq, it is little different from intentionally ruining the opposing player's experience, but is still technically legal. It still is in the realm of what I would call uncool behavior (to bring comp into soloq).
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@meromero said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402702#Comment_3402702
The other survivors can take hits for the unhooked survivor so there is no problem then.
So you need 2 Survivors for every rescue (through the entire match) to address a truly uncounterable design flaw? That seems a bit much. At the very least far more than I was asking for in saying chase the unhooking Survivor, especially when facecamped in endgame as it essentially results in a free down.
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@meromero said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402695#Comment_3402695
It’s not brute forcing when it requires winning a mindgame to get the hit. Every single tile in the game should be mindgameable, otherwise is bad design that makes a survivor automatically safe simply for being there. Similarly, dead zones shouldn’t exist anywhere except the edges to start off.
That maze tile is mindgameable for the majority of the non-tall M1 cast, as there is a short and long end of the window for the 115 Killers. Most of the tall cast have another form to counter it in the form of wall piercing for Pyramid Head, (and laggy Huntresses) Plague gets the free infection injury, and more. Also most Survivors tend to not be used to the weird geometry as well, as all too often they run into a wall when I'm chasing them there and they are looking back to track me.
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@meromero said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402690#Comment_3402690
Sure, as long as there’s a perk that blocks all generators permanently as long as killer is chasing someone. Survivors shouldn’t be able to do generators while the killer chases someone else since the killer doesn’t have any way to stop the other survivors while another chase is happening. By your logic, this is perfectly fine.
What does facecamping in endgame have to do with chasing mid match? Even then if you were talking about DS mid-match, the Conspicuous Action change more than adequately fixed the problems with the perk prior to it being butchered. I truly don't understand where the conversation swapped from endgame to earlier, but they do have that perk you were wanting. The perk is called Corrupt Intervention, and once you get the down (or after 2 minutes) it goes away. It is a little finicky, since some spawns are strange, but Survs are prevented from doing gens without risking themselves like you asked for.
If you are talking about unable to control other players, as Killer you can always control Survivors. You can corral them to a corner of the map by forcing them to risk a hit otherwise. You can pressure them off gens by chases or hooks. Survivors are largely your puppets, and you force them to risk things in order to gain others. Winning as Killer just involves weighing that risk, and taking the option that best suits your Killer/playstyle/perks/opponents. "I know this Feng has Lithe, so I'll chase this direction to force a wasted sprint burst." Or "I know this Meg will sit on gens regardless of who is on hook, so I'll chase the only other available person to ensure the people on hook don't get rescued." Or "I brought Wesker's Iri exposed and start infected add-on, so I will get some early intel in the form of sprays, so I can pass up Lethal Pursuer."
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@meromero said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402680#Comment_3402680
I’m talking about the ones with a bunch of different curved and angled walls all together in a super complicated tile shape. Get off your high horse, ugh. The ability for skill expression via mindgames in a manner that can let any tile be a hit if the killer wins and an evade if the survivor wins is good design.
Again, 1 Killer shouldn't be able to bruteforce their power in every scenario, especially when they can use M1 framework for hits like the majority of the cast. It is good for Killers to be better and worse at different areas. It is good there are stealth Killers, it is good there are mobility Killers, and it is good there are Ranged Killers. Each have their strengths and weaknesses, and none should be without any weaknesses. If that Maze tile on Ormond/Yamaoka was so unplayable as Blight, I would expect afks and/or DCs in frustration if that truly were the case. Instead the only DCs in my Blight matches (as Surv) are sadly my fellow Survivors more often than not.
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@meromero said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402681#Comment_3402681
Forcing a killer into playing actively stupid is not counterplay. Don’t be disingenuous.
That isn't actively stupid, that is playing around a (no-longer existent) perk. That isn't disingenuous, it is solving a problem you found impossible in the erroneous claim of 'no-counterplay'. An actual case of 'no-counterplay' is getting hit off hook. You can't control either the Survivor teammate, nor the Killer in that scenario.
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@meromero said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402675#Comment_3402675
You don’t deserve protection from a perk that was literally not meant to protect you in that situation. DS being enabled in endgame is a lose-lose without counterplay.
Go for unhooker is counterplay. Quit lying to yourself about 'no counterplay'.
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@meromero said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402673#Comment_3402673
As an example, the twisted shape Yamaoka and Ormond tiles make it realistically unviable to use Rushes on due to their super intricate shape.
You mean the 3m loops that can be hit on any side when dropped? Wow, how dare a Killer's power be countered by something even a 110 Killer can get an M1 at. Even if you were referring to a different tile, not the filler pallets, that is a reasonable weakness for the best (2nd arguably) Killer in the game to have. 1 tile out of 10+, my word, he is simply unplayable /s.
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@meromero said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402664#Comment_3402664
Expecting the killer to not tunnel in endgame is entitlement. It is outright stupid to go for a potentially healthy survivor that might be further away and/or have less total hookstates. Also you’re forgetting Decisive Strike isn’t intended to protect you in endgame by dev design either that they have explicitly talked about. It is meant to cost the killer extra time while gens can still be protected. Nothing else. It was never meant to be a total protection regardless of context.
Expecting not to get hit by DS simply because it is endgame is a far greater entitlement. Facecamp for the 1k (which the Killer would have to be entitled to expect any kills regardless), or risk leaving hook for more kills at the cost of potentially losing the guaranteed kill.
Far better to go for injured - That is why it is a design flaw. When a Killer is always better off tunneling than going for the unhooking Survivor, the risk reward ratios are skewed in a negative fashion.
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@ehe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402061#Comment_3402061
Sorry I phrased that badly. What I meant was that his power would be useless on most loops without hug tech.
@meromero said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402061#Comment_3402061
Blight is 115 because his power is not usable in every single loop.
An ideal killer at any tile should always be able to get a hit if they can mindgame the survivor and win. Having tiles that are guaranteed safe are bad design. Several tiles are guaranteed safe or unmindgameable for a killer just walking at 115. Therefore, a survivor can always guarantee a killer just walking without an anti-loop power cannot hit them at certain tiles and will be forced to Bloodlust or break a pallet first to move the survivor to a different tile. That is bad design. A survivor at a tile should always be at risk of being hit no matter what, and whether they get hit should be decided by which player mindgames better.
I would largely disagree that the power isn't usable at every loop. The value may be lessened at some, but not downright unusable. Especially since Blight can break pallets with his power, and recharge the power even during the pallet break (limiting the effectiveness of 'hold-w'). Even then, there is nothing wrong with a Killer not using their power for the hit, or using their power to get an easier M1 instead. The majority of pallets that I've seen hug tech used on are unsafe pallets to begin with, so I don't understand how this would be necessary to begin with, given the bloodlust claim. Also I don't necessarily agree with a pallet not being hittable in and of itself is bad design, given that they are limited resources (Other than Borgo/Garden of Pain feeling unlimited, but those are mostly unsafe anyways). Once a pallet is destroyed, its gone forever, so someone else going to shack for its pallet just gave you a free hit you otherwise wouldn't have gotten. It seems like many people only have the micro of a single chase in their thought processes, and not the macro of total map resources (pallets, gens, hook stages, etc.) as well.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402031#Comment_3402031
Someone deserves a 'free second chance' because they used the perk for it with hyper-specific conditions, (1 minute after unhook without touching anything to progress the game) it hardly is free. Otherwise why wouldn't someone use a perk that gives value regardless of the stage of the game, or a perk that helps reach that late game better? The Killer isn't without options, since they can still take down the unhooker and put them further into the map.
Also Survivors lack I-frames after coming off hook, so they don't exactly have an opportunity to begin with, when they can have their BT be procced before they have a chance to make a meaningful effort to prevent that. When that happens DS is more of 'a chance' than a 'second chance'.
When the exit gates have been powered 'not touching anything' isn't difficult.
There are plenty of perks that only work under specific conditions, DS is one of those. What do you do when you get hooked first even though you brought Deliverance? DC?
DS during endgame is simply one of those "win more when you're already winning" perks, and it had no counter play, so it was removed.
Whether you get hit immediately off the hook or not, you have a speed boost and 10 seconds grace period. If you can't make it somewhere safer in that time, that's the fault of the survivor team.
You misunderstood the specific conditions part. I was saying the conditions are specific enough to not justify its removal in endgame. The DC equivalent instead would be the Killer refusing to grab out of locker or after downing immediately off-hook. The Killer's denial of the perk in that example is the 'DC initiator', not the game's denial. Just as Deli is specific enough to only work on first hook. DS is anti-tunnel, Deli is self-unhook, Hexes are power at the price of vulnerability.
Also people keep saying 'no counterplay' as if there is only 1 survivor in a match of DBD. There are 3 other Survs, and more often than not, one of them had to get the unhook for the unhooked Surv to even have DS activate instead of dying on hook. Yes 4% Kobe exists, (with a potential Slippery Meat) yes Deli exists, but they are far from the norm (with a theoretical endgame DS). Also Pop and other down/hook based perks are equally 'win more' with 'no counterplay' as Survivors are designed to go down in chase (eventually). They all have counterplay, and there is nothing wrong with any of them being win more. I can't be against any anti-tunnel effects when so little exists in the form of preventing it in the first place. Hope and Devour Hope are far 'worse' in terms of 'win-more' perks, because they aren't addressing design flaws. Now to be clear, I think Hope and Devour Hope are both great, fun, well designed perks. The issue is they make your highs higher, as opposed to preventing lows being made lower. Preventing the worst of experiences is rarely a problem to me, especially when the example of 'no-counterplay' is a Bubba ignoring 2 free downs on different people for the tunnel off-hook instead.
Also its strange you consider the Killer's actions in endgame the Survivor's fault. I wouldn't consider an endgame facecamp an issue, since there are no more objectives to defend other than the hooked survivor. I would consider an endgame tunnel (as much as any state of the game) an issue, because the Killer had more than enough opportunity to grab or otherwise down the would-be unhooking Surv(s). This laser focus on 'must kill the unhooked person' is a strange obsession to me, as it isn't even always the path of least resistance. Even then, if the Killer left the hook, they risked extra kills at the cost of the one they have. They knew what they were signing up for when they did it. They could have simply facecamped in endgame and guarantee 1 (more) kill (assuming they had any before endgame in the first place).
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@Sava18 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402085#Comment_3402085
Victor is awful gameplay on the survivor end though. Everything else you said seems like it would also leave little skill expression on the survivors end.
Maybe it's a bias about victor being a guaranteed health state because you have to be on console or such to miss his ability but I just don't see him being fun to play against ever.
I mean the same argument of 'horrible survivor sided gameplay' can be made for nearly any of the top 10 Killers. "Blight just bumps until he hits you, Nurse just teleports on you and hits you, Artist/Pyramid Head just zones you and free hits you, Spirit just goes invisible and hits you, Plague/Oni just has your team feed the Killer their power and they get free hits on you, Wesker just moves too fast to respond and hits you, Huntress just lags and gets free hits (that were clearly misses) on you" etc. I don't quite think Victor is a free hit unless all the other Killers I listed (and arguably more) also have 'free hits'. (Other than a laggy Huntress, she legit gets free hits lol)
As far as Twins in general, similar to Pinhead, are rewarding Survivor teamwork, and punishes soloq mostly. When you coordinate to hold Victor hostage, stay healed up, duo on gens across the map, and so on, the Survivor ended Twins gameplay is a breeze. The difficulty is how it forces you to rely on your teammates more, (not too dissimilar to Plague, Oni, and Myers for that matter) and one slip up can lose you the match.
As far as the 'toymaster'/remake Chucky concept goes, that was a napkin idea. It clearly would need to be ironed out and make sure it is interesting and fair. Are the 'toys' a consumable resource you reload? Do they build up charges over time? Do the speeds need to be altered? Is it fine for the helicopter to counter windows, but lose to pallets? Should the helicopter instead be a map 'teleport' ala Demo portals or Sadako TVs or Freddy gen TP? Should the train break pallets faster instead ala Oni/Demo/Blight mobility attack options? Should the basekit doll have a stealth function or lower TR? Should there be slowdown in the kit in the form of Survivors sabotaging the transformations? They are all ideas, and imo it is better to have more ideas to refine, than fewer to be stuck with.
Also BHVR feel free to use any of the above ideas for Chucky or an OC Toymaster (if OC I just ask you make him/her an arrogant brain in a jar, that would be friggin' sweet.)
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@Sava18 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3401993#Comment_3401993
Bad blights literally don't know what a shoulder filck is and any sort of movement from the survivor side is a free dodge. I went against a "bad" c33 and adrenaline vial blight a few months back is it was a free win. C33 is the only add-on that makes blight free in a equal skill match below high mmr, alch ring is awful in low tier. The issue is that survivors simply haven't tried to learn the character with the most complex interaction in the game by far. Comp teams I go against pre throw on the most anti blight tiles in the game(yeah I know it's not team eternal but the point still stands). No one wants to learn how to play against him because it's too much effort. Yes his top few add-ons are beyond op but that doesn't excuse even 6k hour survivors not understanding how to play vs blight at all.
Regardless of whether blight is oppressive he still has the highest skill ceiling for survivors to play against. Playing vs better players on a high skill ceiling character and watching videos on twitch and youtube are universal ways to improve massively in any game.
Bubbas skill ceiling isn't even licking blights feet and playing survvior vs even the best of bubbas is rather free on majority of maps.
I just can't stand how low the skill of both sides in this game are even when including the average high mmr players on both sides. It's just so sad, genuinely. Survivors simply have the most room for growth vs blight and Killers have the most room for growth playing blight.
The sad fact of dbd is the 99% of the player base on both sides just isn't good.
I mean I don't know what you are looking for in DBD. This is one of the main reasons people call it a party game, as investing time into developing skill is mostly unrewarded. Especially if you compare it to say Starcraft (solo) or Counter Strike (team). Just goof around and have fun, that's what the game is for.
@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3401993#Comment_3401993
Bad blights do not win against their equals. Bad blights do not win period. It’s the same as nurse. A bad nurse / blight is the easiest killer to bully. Played against a brand new blight last night and he didn’t get a single down. They proclaimed they are never touching blight again, and this is the most common outcome with blight.
Bubba more skill expression than blight? I guess you’re entitled to your opinion..
You are right on the first point, in that bad Blight's don't win against their equals. They dominate their 'equals'. Even a bad Blight can crutch on the basekit 4.6, unlike Nurse at 3.85 or say Spirit at 4.4. Now when I say bad Blight, I'm not referring to someone who hasn't even learned the kit of the Killer. I'm talking about people who have the bare minimum hours in a unique Killer to use their power. They may not have figured out all the ins and outs, but they can use the power functionally. They are bad at the Killer, but can use the Killer, as opposed to the M1 framework alone. Not even knowing how to play the Killer is part of the learning curve to develop a new skill. I don't think it is a fair comparison to include say, a Survivor who doesn't know how to progress gens and hides in the corner all match. It is the same for Killers who don't know the basics of their selected Killer. (Arguably it may be more akin to a Killer not understanding how to hook, but nonetheless the not knowing how to play isn't the same as knowing and failing.) Your example is a player who didn't know how to play Blight, and gave up on learning how to play Blight. My stance is they weren't a Bad Blight because they were never a Blight to begin with, they were just there for the test drive, as they even admitted they were giving up on learning the Killer.
Also when I say Bubba has more skill expression than Blight, I am referring to how much effort and knowledge you need for results (in an average match). Blight needs minimal knowledge for results, Bubba needs far greater mastery to reach even similar heights (outside of cheesing a facecamping build in low MMR, but again we are using the 'average match' metric). Since it is harder for Bubba to get the same results, it takes more skill, thus the skill expression, than the Blight player reaching the same goal. Both can defeat (most) SWFs, but the Blight can make massive mistakes along the way in comparison to the Bubba. If the opposing Survivor team is say a 9/10, the Bubba has to climb from maybe a 5 up to 9 to compete, whereas the Blight only has to climb from 7.5/8 up to 9. The larger the gap from possibility to execution, the greater the skill expression. 'Weaker' Killers under that definition always have more skill expression because they have a tougher road to travel. The exception is when a Killer is so weak that they can't even get kills (say a 1/10 only able to reach 6/10 tops). I know many people like to trash Skull Merchant and Sadako, but I don't even think they are that weak. Also, since I use an 'average match', that gets to ignore the extremes of the Toddler with a controller unskilled end, and the comp sweat squads end. (If we were to include Toddlers and comp teams it wouldn't be 0-10, it would probably be -100 to roughly positive 30.)
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@Sava18 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402021#Comment_3402021
I can't imagine chucky fitting into this game. Not only aesthetically but also his kit would probably be awful.
Twins. (To be clear, have Chucky be Victor, and Tiffany be Charlotte.)
They could also use a 'toymaster' aspect like the remake Chucky, where he can use electronic variants like a plane or helicopter at 110 that vaults as fast as survivors or can go straight through windows, a train/rc car that can go under dropped pallets, and just his normal running self with the shortness mixed advantage.
Also aesthetically there are far worse fitting Killers already out there.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3401616#Comment_3401616
True. They keep nerfing regression without giving killers another way to slow them down or fixing their speed in the first place. Hince why as they nerf them tunneling just keeps getting more and more prevalent as the last resort.
Tunneling increased when Killer mains said it wouldn't be necessary with the 6.1.0 changes, because the sweaty ones were abusing the lack of DS being a disincentive anymore. Even then generators went from 80->90s, clearly making gens take longer isn't working, maybe we need to lower them instead /s. Tunneling increases whenever bad Killers can't learn how to play. Sure, at the very tippy top tournament level, sweaty SWFs may have an advantage over all. The problem is the vast majority of games aren't that difficult, and are quite winnable. Tunneling is more often a bad player's first resort than last resort. As long as the design flaw of tunneling is better rewarded than going for another Survivor, people will abuse that. When tunneling is less fruitful than going after anyone else, then that aspect will be fixed.
To an extent the Pain Res change fixes that, as mathematically, the total regression is better at 6 hooks or fewer, and worse at 7. Honestly people often die by then, and the latest a Survivor can die is at 9 hooks, which essentially is a Killer win at that point as long as more than 1 gen remains. They are only nerfing unearned regression in the upcoming patch. Now Ruin and Pop were more than fair, and buffed Eruption provided more prevented gen progress than Pop. If Pop needed to even be touched, (which I don't think it did) clearly Eruption needed tuning. The main issue is Killers aren't meant to play security guard for generators, they are meant to hunt down and kill Survivors. Too many players are focused on avoiding a loss, instead of advancing a win, that it backfires and sets them up for failure. 3-gen perks allowed a monkey with a spacebar to bore Survivors to death, instead of actually chasing them down.
Just chase people, it isn't too hard, maybe bring a lethality perk to make up for a Killer/personal weakness or synergy. If I suck at dealing with pallets, maybe I should bring Enduring and/or Spirit Fury, same with windows and Bamboozle. Or synergize Bamboozle with Legion or Wesker's vault. The game starts with effectively 4 gens being progressed, or 4 gen seconds per real second. A chased Survivor drops that to 3, and a hooked survivor drops that to 2, (Hook, gen, gen, rescuer) and an intercepted hook rescuer drops that further to 1. Leveraging that pressure is the main way to win without slowdown. Another method of gaining pressure, even if you don't intend to tunnel, is to interrupt a hemorrhage heal. Most Survivors will want to heal up to feel safe, and this makes their past time worthless. Also running methods of hemorrhage help prevent that annoying heal in your face.
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@ehe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/372396/regarding-blight-s-hug-tech
Its practically a feature at this point. Blights failure to work properly is so helpful its become a feature, raising his kill ceiling exponentially.
its all that makes him function at loops anyway, so its probably best to keep it.
Bug exploits make him function at loops - Maybe if he was 110 or 105 basekit, but he is still 115. Not every Killer needs their power to function under all circumstances, and it is good to have weak spots so that there is counterplay opportunities. Even then, it is more than easy enough on the majority of maps to just bounce around a small rock a couple of times for a hit, and it being faster than holding W at 115.
@OrangeBear said:
Yes but hillbilly really needed skybilly patched first and then they needed to nerf him. Priorities
This is the sentiment I see most often. Skybilly and Demo air-shredding apparently needed to be nerfed/fixed long before a bug on one of the the top performing Killers. It is a low-priority bug, sure, but why are these even lower priority bugs being touched at all in the meantime?
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3399325#Comment_3399325
Yea, Nurse is just the type of Killer where you have to sweat or you will preform poorly. I don't enjoy that. Even games where you win and you would consider good games, there were usualy sweat anyway because you just have to focus all the time.
I can only agree in the sense that Survivors often hear the Nurse screech and either give up or tryhard from the onset. The base killer (once you learned the basic muscle memory) is so busted I tried running both meme add-ons and 0 slowdown (auras most often to be fair) and still win far more often than not.
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@IWasLrft2Die said:
-old hex ruin was fine and borderline weak because totems are in terrible spots
-myers is underated. His mirror addons are great and his tombstone addons are Overrated. Yes you get a 4k but your score is awful
-dcing should be handled differently. If killer disconnects, survivors max out survival score and it's considered an escape and you keep the item you started with along with whatever item you are holding when killer disconnects. If survivor disconnects, survivors scores are 30% greater (no cap) at the end and the killers gets all 3 hook counts for the disconnected survivor. 1st DC for the day 20minute ban, 2nd 2 hour ban, 3rd 2 day ban, refreshes after a week.
-flashlights aren't nearly as good as some of yall make it out to be
-there should be more hooks on most maps. Too many deadzones.
-clowns yellow bottles are worthless.
-keys should have another meaningful use
Yellow Bottles - I feel like this is a common consensus, given how few players use them. I disagree and think Yellow Bottles are better than Purple in the majority of cases. (Even basekit you gain net distance after the reload with all bottles, and TR pressure is kinda slept on.)
@HugTheHag said:
- Most content creators (yes, even famous 'wholesome' ones) are out of touch with casual players and cultivate toxic competitive mindsets. Plus, they entertain the illusion that what they face with their own chosen restrictions is representative to the one (1) truth of the game.
- Content creators shouldn't be consulted for balance.
- Hag is a very fun killer. She has too many counters though (especially after her nerf), and should be made 115% already.
- Voice lines are annoying (exception made for Pinhead).
- I don't care about licensed chapters.
- Tier lists are annoying.
- Just because a killer can't be picked up and 4'k consistently within a couple days doesnwt mean it needs buffs. Looking at you, PTBs where everyone is outraged within the first week.
- Killers shouldn't be able to 4'k consistently, just like survivors shouldn't be able to escape consistently. It's called balance for a reason.
- Winstreakers deserve all matchmaking throws their way. If you do a long winstreak and then complain about sweaty opponents it's 100% on you.
- Playing very fair and letting the last / couple last survivors go makes for a fun match for both sides and anchors you in a fun mmr niche where you can run things you like over meta.
- Most players are not toxic. Tell your survivors they did well in endgame chat and most times they'll return the compliment.
Letting people go - Yeah my favorite thing about Red Rank matchmaking was how you could 2-hook tango and win without being forced to kill people. Now I have to kill new players just do to both of us a favor. It feels so bad forcing someone to die in-game to give them better matches, as many will quit before they reach that spot.
@solarjin1 said:
● The more ruthless u play the more miserable the game become for u.
● TS peice myers is stronger than every character beside blight and nurse.
● Monstrous shrine is surprisingly the most useless perk in the game
● your far more likely to get camp by trickster, plague, huntress, and clown than any bubba player.
Monstrous Shrine - I still think it isn't horrible, at least compared to Buckle Up. They should have given the endurance on ally pickup to Buckle Up instead of We're Gonna Live Forever. At the very least Monstrous Shrine can give you a Pain Res or Floods from basement hooks. If you are restricting it to Killer perks however, I'd say Shadowborn is worse. It's users become abusers, and can't function without it. No other perk could even tangentially be compared to addiction.
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A common thing I keep seeing in this thread is how it was 'uncounterable' as though all the other Survivors in the match are invisible. Even in the Bubba video posted, he ignored 2 free saws on people that weren't previously on hook. I can understand and agree that bodyblocking with anti-tunnel effects is annoying, and the counter to that is disable collision while under those effects, so the Killer can just run past them if standard M1 styled. Also many people are acting as though Deli is free, when you can only be hooked on first hook in endgame AFTER gates are 99'ed/opened. Most often you get hooked before then, especially if you risked the rescue on the person to earn your Deli in the first place.
@Seraphor said:
Because Decisive Strike during EGC makes survivors invulnerable if they go down anywhere near the exit gate.
Can't pick them up, can't leave them on the ground, they escape either way.
Counterpoint; why should you deserve a free second chance when you've already 'won' by repairing all the gens? You still have basekit BT to protect you from tunneling, so you have every opportunity to not go down immediately after getting unhooked.
Someone deserves a 'free second chance' because they used the perk for it with hyper-specific conditions, (1 minute after unhook without touching anything to progress the game) it hardly is free. Otherwise why wouldn't someone use a perk that gives value regardless of the stage of the game, or a perk that helps reach that late game better? The Killer isn't without options, since they can still take down the unhooker and put them further into the map.
Also Survivors lack I-frames after coming off hook, so they don't exactly have an opportunity to begin with, when they can have their BT be procced before they have a chance to make a meaningful effort to prevent that. When that happens DS is more of 'a chance' than a 'second chance'.
@JawsIsTheNextKiller said:
It was nerfed to keep it out of the stale meta. I'm glad as people are running a bit more variety now. Built in borrowed time and off the record ease the pain of its removal from those solo players that were genuinely using it as anti-tunnel. I hope they continue nefing meta perks on both sides.
The problem with DS, is how it is popular due to design flaws. As long as the design flaw exists, then need for anti-tunnel will exist. BT might as well have been basekit (With 3 selectable perks) before 6.1.0 because of how often tunneling occurred regardless. We need better incentives to leave hook or go after rescuers instead.
In general, I think each of the 6.1.0 perk nerfs should have been single nerfs instead of double nerfs. Also I'd prefer DS to have 5s stun than work in endgame if that was the choice factor, but honestly the Conspicuous Action change was good enough. The other issue with the 6.1.0 shakeup, was the perks nerfed felt fair. You could cleanse Ruin, earn Pop with hooks, not tunnel to avoid DS, use eyes to counter Iron Will. Compared to our current (soon to be gone) unearned 3-gen fare and CoH dual fortress perks. Those I will be glad to see gone, unlike their predecessors.
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@Sava18 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3400818#Comment_3400818
If we ignore c33 and alch ring then blight is the pinnacle of this game. It's unfortunate so many players are less than even a casual level in this game.
The thing is, most blights are awful by my standard. Most being probably around 90% if I am putting it against my better estimation. But on the other hand at least 95% of survivors don't have any clue on what to do against a good blight. Some of that is from people not trying to learn and some of that is from how little survivors get to go against an actually good blight.
I get it, your teamates probably don't even know what collision is and thus they can't even do a basic pluto at most shacks, but that's really not your fault it's theirs.
The difference between something like league and dbd though is that way too many people are bad and are not trying to get better. "High mmr" isn't even good survivors for the most part, just people running the best stuff available in a swf. I can lower my mmr or raise it to the max and all I will receive is efficiency on the survivor side not a noticeable increase in chase skills, including comp players. I remember running alch ring/iri tag for the second time quite a while back, going into it expecting the easiest of games. But I went against a god tier survivor on Zarina who absolutely 1v9d the game for the survivors. Not because they had the capability to loop m1 killers which is beyond easy but because they were able to absolutely destroy me in so many ways as blight on suffo pit I wasn't even a little tilted. It's just these survivors are so few and far between this game lacks substance for me at the moment. I am simultaneously playing the most skilled killer in the game by far and giving survivors the highest possible ability to improve by playing blight with low tier add-ons.
Seriously, if I went against these god chasers and not these bots/efficient teams who lack the real skill I desire to play against I would be inclined to play this game much more. As it stands I just can't bring myself to care with the current player base.
Keep in mind I have maIned several killers before blight ranging between hag and blight which have opposite play styles. But if I play Bubba it's more on the survivors to make a mistake, more than it is for either of us to be in a skilled chase in which both of us can make a skilled play at the same time.
I'll probably pick up killer and not just survivor for a bit after the patch drops, but this is literally the only game I have ever complained about how terrible my opponents are(on boths sides).
The main problem is how easy it is for a bad Blight to still win against their 'equal' MMR survivors. When bad Survivors can't practice against equal skilled oppressive Killers, and just get facerolled without effort, they aren't going to ever learn how to beat those Killers. That is what I am talking about with the disengagement. They aren't ever going to learn to get better against oppressive Killers because they never get the opportunity to.
Also the oppressive Killers lack the 'opposite side' learning that many other Killers have. When I play Plague/Huntress I learn as Survivor to circle small rocks when I just need to delay. When I play Trapper or Ghostface or Hag, I learn how powerful 1 player 'harassing' the Killer's power can be. When I play Blight, I learn 'Survivors die lul git rekt'.
I still think there is greater skill in the execution of Bubba, because early saws that hit on the last second of the third charge take a lot of practice without being oppressive. With the Bubba you learn from both sides whether to greed or drop pallets. That is tough (other than on Borgo/Garden of Pain) because you run out of pallets and/or hook states sooner than later, so it still feels like it is in the better sides' camp.
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@HugTechLover said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396613#Comment_3396613
The point is to get better…
To be fair, I don't just fly someone out to Mount Everest with no gear and no guide if they want to climb a mountain. I make sure they at least can handle a hill, before slowly raising difficulty. Too often for new players, the top 5 killers have too sharp of a difficulty spike. When learning is that difficult, people tend to disengage. If they disengage, they give up in-game, or give up mentally and fail to progress the game. No one giving up in any respect is learning from that experience. They might be able to learn if they come back with a fresh mind/match, but all too often the lesson to be learned is 'Blight/Nurse = unfun sweat match', so people just want to go next.
Also not everyone's experience is the same. One of the posters said they straight up give up against stealth Killers in general. I personally love stealth Killers the most (both as and against). They are one of the few times you can actually get an 'oh-sh**' moment. Imagine actually having jumpscares in what is supposed to be a horror game, right? I also love how it emphasizes the strategy aspect of the game, and makes you feel like Sun Tzu when you pull off your mindgames and macro strats. (Pressuring multiple Survs that is, not something as basic as holding a 3-gen.)
When I lose to something, I try to go against it or play the opposite side in general. I have learned how to avoid detection because I know where I would look as Surv. Sadly the lesson I learned with Blight, is Blight wins. If I pick Blight (and try to win), I win. If I go against Blight, (and he tries to win) he wins. If I wanted to play a game with a foregone conclusion, I'd play a single player story experience. I need that real risk of victory or loss, and I need both potentials to be in the ballpark of one another. One could argue I fit in that camp of disengaging mentally against Blights. The only hope lies in whether or not the Killer is new or not, and upon confirming bug abuse you can't tell they aren't. I still do gens as Surv, but that doesn't stop my teammates from dropping too quick.