mizark3
mizark3
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I'd arguably play more Killer, as I only play a decent amount of Survivor doing tomes or 1/week playing with friends on the weekend. Plus soloq is unbelievably frustrating when you can do nothing about other people's actions. I can't stop the teammate from rescuing me at 61s, or feeding the Myers/Oni/Plague their power. I can't stop someone from throwing a pallet, or booning so I can't cleanse or cleansing so I can't boon. As Killer I know everything lies upon my shoulders, good and bad. I have enough confidence in my abilities to win, as I'm not reliant on someone else screwing up (as they most often do in soloq). It feels so much better knowing you lost because you screwed up, instead of someone else that is supposed to be helping you. As of late I typically follow the incentive, and I would be far happier if I only queued as Killer. Most importantly though, you need to play as both sides to understand how to counter both sides. Most mains don't have that information, and can only guess. I tend to ignore main's opinions for that very reason, or at least take it with a grain of salt.
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Only you know your own skill level, but many people fall prey to Dunning-Kruger.
When we get a skill based system, I too would like to know my number. The problem is we have a kill/escape based system.
When I 2-hook tango as Killer since the Survivors brought BPS, I get punished for giving them each the 7k (boosted to 14k) Survival BP. When my teammates leave me to die on first hook from a Killer that isn't even camping, I get punished. Heck, even when a killer facecamps me from the start, I get punished. If I hook trade in endgame, I get punished.
As long as we have a jank and inaccurate system, you won't have an accurate number. Even then, they have said multiple times they prioritize replacement slots over MMR accuracy. So even if you get an 'accurate' match, if someone backs out it throws that into whack.
If you really want to know how good you've been doing, keep track. Open up notepad or write on a sticky note and track did you win or lose, kill or escape (through gate, remember hatch is a tie). If your kill rate is above 60%, you are doing good. If your escape rate is above 40%, you are doing good. (Since those are the numbers they balance around.) You know if you won or not, the escape/kill doesn't always track that. I know I won if I got the clean snipe as Huntress, or ran the Bubba until I got out or he facecamped me as his only kill. The game doesn't track that. So you need to.
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Simple solutions tend to be the best. Until a better solution can be made, how about a Devour Hope's styled speed boost for 10s if you leave the hook within 15s? Just have it end early if you use power, get within (24m or 32m) of hook, or enter chase. That way normal killers can be afforded a bit of mobility, but it won't help Blight boost across the map even quicker. Since it ends on starting chase, it won't kill survivors through cheese, just give map mobility to those who need it most.
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@feffrey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3385148#Comment_3385148
Killers have been consistently handfed for 6 years of this game and still currently begging for more. Like someone mentioned above killers are in a spot where they can deny loops and even make up the lost distance in chase at loops
While survivors are consistently kicked down and gutted to where they've to hold hands with each other to play
You shouldn't be able to pick up killer and instantly master it get 4k every match
While I do think the best state of the game is with 12 hook (action, not state) gameplay being incentivized, I think it needs to happen on both ends. Providing value to spreading the pain, while making it more difficult to camp out hook stages and tunnel people off hook. Things like a lesser grim embrace, that only work when you get each player to stage 1 and stage 2 simultaneously (that is all 4 survs reach stage 1, you get your first lesser GE, then if you do it again for stage 2, you get a 2nd GE.), while also helping that happen by denying hiding perks when you are the least hooked living survivor. (Maybe an exception for Low Profile and Sole Survivor's benefits.)
While some patches have clearly been bad (6.1.0's DS nerf, earned regression nerfs and unearned regression buffs, and COH existing at all), they have been mostly taking turns in screwing over each group. I honestly think the best the game has had it for both sides, was Mikaela's release while COH was killswitched.
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@TigerSnake said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3385070#Comment_3385070
Deleting perks to uselessness instead of trying to keep them at least somewhat useful is a bad way to go about things. And even on heavy progressed gens, Pop is still just “meh”. CoB and OC should be 150 so they won’t just be useless trash.
While I agree in principle, I do think the proposed COB/OC are still good (just no longer OP), as their unique features are largely untouched. (Intel for COB, Skillcheck for OC dropped to 14% from 15% regression) Arguably CoH is being overly nerfed, but I think since it can be used with other Boon perks it has a lot of hidden value. (I would still allow Self-Care at 35% as the only difference from the proposed version of CoH, as 35% self-care is practically throwing if you don't get healed by someone else.) I think most people overreacted to Pop's nerf, but I also think it, alongside most other 6.1.0 perk nerfs should have been single nerfs, not double nerfs. (Pop still based on max% not current, Ruin staying at 200% disappear on death OR 100% stay on death, DS remaining at 5s, Iron Will being tied to non-exhaustion 100% OR 75% not both, etc.)
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@Technature said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3385081#Comment_3385081
People don't seem to be getting this, so allow me to explain yet again.
The game has devolved to a state where killers reliably pick the 3 gens that are closest to each other and are the easiest to defend and the survivors go to a place the killer would never go to place down their own little safe space. This results in boring games of tag where the first side to lose is whichever side doesn't want to deal with it anymore or the people end the game via a tie the game forces on them. People have been (rightfully) complaining about this for months and it's exacerbated with the introduction of Knight and Skull Merchant who are two killers that happens to be able to do this strategy well (or in SM's introduction, was the ONLY thing they could do well).
In response, BHVR has nerfed the most popular perks that contribute to this boring playstyle and made nerfs to healing to encourage killers to actually abandon the post they set up. Survivors can no longer just go in, take a hit, and leave to their impenetrable castle of nothing in the middle of butt ######### nowhere because the perks that help them do this are worse, harder to use, or just not worth using anymore, at least not for that purpose. Similarly, Killers had perks that encouraged them to set up their trench early and made it difficult for anyone to get actual progress on the gens made significantly harder to use.
This will ultimately make the game more about chasing, pressuring, and eventually downing survivors, which I was under the impression was what everyone wanted but based on how everyone is in an uproar over their preferred side getting screwed (conveniently ignoring that both sides had game changing nerfs) it seems the "Dual Impenetrable Fortress" style of gameplay is what everyone really wanted. Which is weird because last I checked people hated Knight and Skull Merchant for encouraging this.
You're damned if ya do, and you're damned if ya don't.
As for the "innocent to all this is being caught in the crossfire" comment, let me point out that the "innocents" are thoroughly ######### either way. Survivors that want to play however they want can't get through the trenches killers dig into their 3 gens and Killers that want to "play nice" (weird terminology but whatever) or otherwise be interesting will be run in circles against survivor SWFs that Tea Bag at the exit gate every game because if I don't mock the Clown for being unable to catch me on The Game, who will? (Everyone, stereotypical survivor main. Everyone will do that.)
The reason it devolved into this deplorable state, is because they needlessly nerfed earned regression (pop) because of popularity, while buffing unearned regression (CoB/OC), and nerfing Self-Care before daring to touch their baby CoH. CoH was a problem since it was released, and if anything it should have always been a hybrid of the altruism bonus only with aura reveal, and Self-Care at 35%. That way, people would know it is better to heal each other, instead of guitar soloing adjacent to one another like we see on live.
That last part you are talking about would be exacerbated by an altruism heal change, as only a SWF on comms could reasonably coordinate heals in such a meta. More SWFs will dominate killers, and soloq will suffer even more. Nothing about increasing hook times would threaten 'making injuries have value' for normal gameplay. It would only nerf early onset camping.
(Also if you are a Clown unable to get a hit on The Game, unironically skill dif git gud. You don't need to be a manifesto Clown to throw both types of bottles. Also non-manifesto Clowns know enough to bring Brutal Strength anyways. To be fair Clown is probably my 2nd most played killer behind Ghostie, so take that with a grain of salt. Any M1 killer like Legion can have fair complaints on that map, but not anyone with a slowing or damaging [to the point of downing] power.)
@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3385081#Comment_3385081
-"I thought when gens were getting 10s added to them, hooks would get 5s added to them, to make sure they didn't incidentally buff facecamp Bubba"
Gens went +10 seconds because everyone gets +10 seconds of free borrowed time.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3385073#Comment_3385073
No Way Out, Corrupt Intervention, Eruption for regression, and Deadlock all aren't having their numbers dropped.
Corrupt will be "ok" for hit and run but it was pretty heavily nerfed in the 6.1 changes. Eruption? Oh no sorry... it's dead as DH. NWO is a "win more" perk. When it works best is when there are 1-2 people left when the gens get powered.... and that's not helpful. NWO is also not optimal because it goes against efficient play - tunneling.
Deadlock is "ok" but has never been in the shrine. It delays the inevitable and right now is worse than strong gen regression combos.
The base kit perk will be Sloppy Butcher to make sure nobody heals. Terminus might become meta to prevent adrenaline. That is a far more likely pick than NWO.
Anyone who has played both Killer and soloq surv for at least an hour knows the 10s borrowed time is a joke (outside of endgame), as all that tests is a killers capacity to count into the double digits. If you went down in the first place it was because the resources of the area were used up, making where you get hooked a deadzone, making any killer wanting to tunnel just needing to wait 10s before plopping the survivor back on hook. It also had the consequence of unintentionally nerfing the only anti-tunnel perk remaining, as if you can't hear them, you hit them immediately off-hook to proc the non-stacking endurance ASAP. If anti-tunnel endurance stacked, it wouldn't be a problem. Sadly people made meme videos with viewers to show off theoreticals of every endurance possible, but if that were to happen in a real match, the game would have been lost before even 3 generators popped since you lose endurance when touching gens anyways.
Also the basekit BT has nothing to do with empowered facecamping, as you don't rescue people and pump gens in that case. The issue was they added nothing to prevent the gen timers being abused by facecamping, as even Reassurance requires you to get within downed range of facecampers to use. "Oh you used Reassurance, well now I get to camp your corpse on the floor as well as the person on hook, and it takes you 30s to recover to 95% anyways, and your team is now only working on 2 gens at a time instead of 3." (Except on 2-story maps, which is a flaw with map design, not the actions and perks.)
Corrupt is a solid perk, and it already is much better used in the hands of hit and run on live ever since the drop early on downed change. The main value of corrupt though is forcing survivors to not hop on a gen on spawn, and that hasn't changed.
I think you don't know how to take advantage of NWO if you think it only provides value against 2 max living survivors. Also all balanced slowdown are win more perks, as pop was before, and SH:PR as well. (I am against the proposed method of nerfing SH:PR, because I understand camp hook recycling is the problem, and people not doing that playstyle are victims of the proposed nerf. A different method such as 2 uses per Scourge would give roughly the same average reward as current, without punishing non-campers. I primarily use SH:PR to hide my SH:Floods on most killers, and I might have to swap to SH:GoP instead.)
Deadlock not being in the shrine is an argument against P2W more than anything else. Even then, Call of Brine is equally locked behind a licensed killer, so that argument doesn't hold much weight. Also you say 'delays the inevitable' as though Killer isn't designed to win chases. If pallets weren't finite, entity blocked windows didn't exist, and bloodlust didn't exist, then you'd have a point. However since the survivor is designed to go down, it is only the problem of Fractured Cowshed/Borgo/Garden of Pain that needs to be fixed. Those maps are known outliers in terms of bad design. (Since I am a Ghostie main, Gideon's Meat Plant gives me easier wins than losses, as most people are too stupid to pay attention to stealth killers sneaking up on them. But I can understand if other M1 killers aren't a fan. Blights however can shred through the pallets so fast that it is copium for them to claim it is Survivor sided. Although, to be fair, it is so easy (for me) to win as Blight, I have to run meme perks/add-ons to give the vast majority of survivors a chance.)
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3385087#Comment_3385087
Buffing hook timers means hooks provide less pressure overall. Even if the killer isn't camping, hooks on the opposite side of the map become less impactful since survivors have more time to get there. Gens can pop before getting the unhook, because there's less rush to do so before the next hook state.
The person on hook still can't do anything, and if the Survivors intentionally leave them on hook, they run the risk of 2 people on hook in a death spiraling match loss. So it would only prevent camping from the onset being valuable, not juicing the last seconds from greeding gensb4frens. Especially since with the healing timers they are forced to take longer healing.
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Nerfing Billy in the same page as Artist and Nurse buffs is ludicrously out of touch. Everyone (being honest) knew unearned gen kick perks and self-healing was a problem. I can understand DH nerf, but I would much rather it provide Endurance exclusively against Special Attacks as the change. That way you won't hurt the Myers or Ghostie or Clown, but you will hit the Nurse or Blight or Artist.
Altruistic healing is definitely getting needlessly nerfed, and they aren't fully addressing the medkit problem sadly. There still will be 2 self-heals available at double the speed of altruistic healing. I would be fine with medkits still providing some extra value at a 2/3rds heal, but I wouldn't complain at a full 50% speed to be equal. Medkits imo will always be a problem as long as altruistic healing with them is not worth the charges compared to selfish healing.
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@Crowman said:
Or we could see the actual effects of the healing changes instead of asking for other buffs as "compensation". If it turns out healing was overnerfed, then you can either tone back the nerf or buff other areas of the game. Nerfs don't need to be followed by compensation buffs.
Why do you think hook timer changes would be a buff? Altering hook timers would only hurt campers, and even further incentivize chases, as you can't hover at hook permanently to guarantee a kill. It reaches all the same desired goals as healing changes.
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@Dsg4041 said:
It really honestly blows my mind that this has never been fixed in the entire lifespan of the game.
For example, I start up a match of DBD with Lethal Pursuer.
I only see three auras..
I play out the match expecting to see Distortion, and here we are end screen and not one single Survivor had Distortion.
So what happened?
Well, I recorded that match and pulled up the tape.
No obvious signs of a fourth Survivor aura.
Let's rewatch it one more time.
And there it is. What happened was that in the very first second of the match, I had turned left a little.
With that view to the left and Lethal Pursuer active, there were a few very tiny pixels of a fourth Survivor aura taking 1 step and blending into a gen repair.
What's ironic is that if I didn't turn left, her aura would have shown even fewer tiny pixels, or frankly, none at all.
This occurs with every single Aura effect in the game.
BBQ & Chili Perk activating mid game with other Survivors on gens like they're supposed to?
Ready to find 3 Survivor auras in 4 seconds there? Lol
The issue is someone blending behind a gen. While you can kind of look below the gen and see their feet, a better fix would have a Survivor with their aura revealed change the color of the gen they are working on. I would instead not tie that to color, in the case of colorblindness, and instead have a symbol like Freddy teleport above the gen. That way you can see from the symbol that a revealed Surv is on the gen.
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@Technature said:
"My side has been nerfed, I demand the other side be nerfed as well!"
"But we nerfed the other side too."
"I'm sorry I don't think I heard you, you should just do what I say instead."
It would be more accurate to say the problem perks on both sides are being addressed (CoH+DH/OC+CoB), and an area that is innocent to all this is being caught in the crossfire.
It is also being made with 0 thought to the rest of the timers in the game. I thought when gens were getting 10s added to them, hooks would get 5s added to them, to make sure they didn't incidentally buff facecamp Bubba. Sadly those changes didn't come alongside them, and facecamping was buffed. Now all forms of camping will be buffed, as the counter before was to send 2 people for a 55-59s rescue while the last person works on gens. Now there isn't enough time to heal up and reach the hook again in time for a single stage trade. That is a problem, making a massive change without thinking even the basic scenarios through.
The gen and hook timers not being adjusted together I could excuse, as facecamp Bubba/(any other killer from the start) is an edge case scenario. Camping or even Tunneling outright is not an edge case scenario, as both are becoming all the more the norm, and those low risk strats are getting more and more rewarding with every patch. This seems like there was very little to no thought put into a change that will have massive ripples.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384230#Comment_3384230
It doesn't matter if you personally think injuries matter. It's clear that many killers don't think injuries matter, which is why the 3 gen situations are out of control, and is why BHVR literally made a dev update telling us they want injuries to feel like they matter.
When killers choose to stick to a 3 gen, and refuse to chase survivors, it's because they don't think chases are worth it, and they don't think injuries matter enough to leave their 3 gen. This is the problem the game is having, and we should be giving killers positive reinforcement to go on chases.
'Killers that lack skill' would be a fair claim to make, not killers as a whole. When they know they are engaging in a pseudo-hostage game by intending to kick 3-gens for an hour through their build and actions, they never had any faith in their ability to play. 3-gens are out of control because the perks give unearned regression, not because 'they don't think injuries matter'. When regression was tied to hooks, they have to play the game and win or lose from skill. Since regression is tied to kicking gens with bad perk design, we have this abomination of a state of the game that we have right now.
@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383626#Comment_3383626
-"There is still more than enough slowdown to play normally,"
What makes you say that? Base regression is 1/4th of one survivor. The two kicks perks are getting a 70-75% nerf. Pain res can be used up to 4 times per game. Nobody is going to use any of those perks.
By itself Jolt does nothing. It worked "fine" when you could combine it with another perk like Pain res to be getting something like -40% off a generator.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383616#Comment_3383616
-"Making all healing speeds longer, is the compensation for all the gen regression slowdown being shorter."
Unlike the OP you understand what is going on here. Healing will be the new "secondary objective". You play the game hurt and win quickly or you heal and the game lasts a long time.
No Way Out, Corrupt Intervention, Eruption for regression, and Deadlock all aren't having their numbers dropped. That is a fully functional full slowdown build. Jolt is for the non-oppressive Killers, and it works more than adequately. You also didn't say anything in regards to the topic, should hooks also take proportionately longer? If 2 people are injured and one gets hooked, it current leaves you 28s after they both heal each other to get the hook, but after the proposed change that will drop to 12s. So should we give 16s per hook stage, or 50% longer at 30s, for the same as percentage as injuries?
@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/369515/heal-time-changes-hook-time-changes
Honestly making everything take longer should be the answer but at this point I'd rather we go back to pre 6.1.0 the game does not feel fun to play with everything taking so long to do. We could have had so many better things like baseline corrupt or the early game changes, instead we got more stackable slowdown paired with gens that take forever and base chase changes that should have been added gradually rather than all at once with no tweaks since.
the game was fine before 6.1.0 the meta was just stale and now they are just making the base game insufferable.
Hard agree here. 6.1.0 nerfed earned regression needlessly while buffing unearned regression, and buffed tunneling through the DS nerf needlessly. I think the best state of the game for everyone was on Mikaela's release while CoH was killswitched. To be fair though, I am fine with many of the basekit killer buffs they put in 6.1.0, since it shortened the theoretical 20s hold W to a theoretical 18s. It also mostly buffed the killers who need it. I think the Surv speed boost on hit and kick speed shouldn't have changed though, just the basic attack cooldown further from 2.7s to maybe 2.5s. That way Nurse and Blight don't get the buff benefits when hitting with their power, but the Doctor and Trapper get something.
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@TigerSnake said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384240#Comment_3384240
COB and OC were basically replacement Pop/Ruin in the sense that they’d quickly decimate a gen with a lot of progress. The fact that they in particular took no effort was only part of their appeal. Now we have nothing good that can control gens with a lot of progress, only trash perks no one cares about, making playing for hooks nearly impossible.
The only way I could believe that claim is if you legit Bloodlust hits on Blight. That is so far from the truth, that you have to be lying in bad faith. Especially with the claim 'nothing good that can control gens with a lot of progress' when Pop still is ultra effective on 70%+ gens. Unearned healing like through CoH is bad, and unearned gen regression through OC/COB is bad. Both are problems for the same reason, and are being removed for the betterment of the game.
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@TigerSnake said:
I mean, what do you expect when all the good regression perks that make playing for hooks possible are all but gone?
Which perk are you talking about other than SH:PR? None of the perks proposed to be nerfed are reliant on getting hooks to earn them. The regression perks being nerfed are the 0 skill, all reward, problems of poor design.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384161#Comment_3384161
I've already mentioned multiple times that all healing needs to be nerfed so that injuries can feel like they matter. I've played enough games, that were 100% altruistic healing, to know that injuries won't matter unless altruistic healing speed gets a large nerf.
And the biggest reason is because this is what BHVR wants to do to shift the meta, so that it encourages killers to go on chases. Without the full healing speed nerfs, the meta won't shift, and killers will be encouraged to continue to just camp and tunnel, because it just won't be worth it to chase a survivor when you could be defending an area instead.
It doesn't matter how much math you throw at us, unless killers feel like injuries and chases matter, then you're telling killers they should be encouraged to camp and tunnel, because it's a much higher value strategy.
I also mentioned multiple times that injuries matter plenty when you know how to use them, and you have a method to deal with self-healing. I've played more than enough Clown games that utilize that combination of pressure of injury, hook, and interception to win.
I would argue that universal heal speed nerfs will encourage even more camping and tunneling. If people get injured and need to heal, scummy Killers will be all the more empowered to camp as they will know Survs can't heal and reach the hook in time for a trade/rescue. Exact same problem with tunneling if basekit BT is going to remain at 10s. I can be a Scratched Mirror Myers on the opposite side of most maps, and I'll know I can still reach the hook before they finish the heal.
All I can do is help people play the game. Every Ghostface playing 'Chaseface' that I come across loses to me playing Survivor, so I try to push them in the right direction of using M2. You wouldn't play Huntress without hatchets, but all too many people think chasing as Ghostface is the path to victory.
If people think the injuries they inflict don't matter, but in my matches they do matter, all I can think is I know something they don't. The problem is I don't know what I don't know, or more accurately, what they don't know. Another problem is learning takes effort, and plenty of people are too lazy or otherwise unwilling/unable to learn different strategies and methods to improve. Many people fall back on the devil they know, and resort to camping and tunneling since they are disproportionately rewarded for the effort and skill involved. One route is to play soloq surv and remember the sting of how unfun that match was when the killer camped or tunneled. Strive to do better, to not inflict that same torment on others, y'know have sympathy. The best help I can give people though is to recommend they record their matches, delete the wins, and think of what they could have done differently to win in the losses. Do I break the pallet/force the drop on this side or the other? Do I mindgame this part of the loop or fake the mindgame while holding W? That is the long version of 'git gud', but people don't take kindly to hearing it phrased the short way.
I do think camping and tunneling are problems of design, because the risk is low, and the reward is high. We can either increase the risk, or decrease the reward. I think the reward of a hook state is appropriate for tunneling, but the risk should be far higher. I would have anti-tunnel endurance sources all stack, along with DS being reverted to 5s. That way the risk is high, as you never know which endurance proc is the last, and the reward is high to match. For camping, longer hook timers is the best I can come up with. If the timer is extended then as Killer you can guarantee 1 kill, but nothing beyond that for what essentially amounts to not playing the game. The threat of the remaining survs completing gens while you are camping needs to have bite, but I don't think reducing gen times is the answer either. That leaves the best solution to be hook times. Arguably there could be a hybrid hook timer, where if a facecamp is detected then gens progress at triple speed, but that requires a lot more than a simple number tweak. If we want to shift the meta towards chases, and away from camping and tunneling this would more than equitably accomplish those goals. Heck, if these happened alongside the healing nerfs then it would probably be fine, as it would ensure killers won't resort to camping and tunneling. Hence the thread.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384088#Comment_3384088
The majority of people are against slower altruistic healing, because the majority of the people don't want survivors to get nerfed, and this seems like the easiest thing to latch onto. This has nothing to do with what is fair and balanced. People are just trying to get a nerf reverted due to popular opinion.
You being blinded by 'main-brain' is the only thing I can think that is preventing you from recognizing it is a problem. You haven't provided any arguments beyond 'I don't like it', so why is your opinion more valid than others? If it is merely opinion against opinion then surely math, rock solid inarguable facts would sway you, but they don't. You apparently think everyone is a Survivor main, only arguing to protect their toys. Both Otzdarva and OhTofu, prominent Killer mains can recognize it would be a grave mistake, so I'm confused what is preventing you from seeing that as well. The nerf is proposed, not locked in stone. Most people do think it is fair and balanced to not destroy the game, so what is tricking you into thinking otherwise? Most people are against kicking puppies, is that because they are dog lovers and hate cats? I would argue most people can understand bad things when they are told about them.
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@ehe said:
No, because the increase to healing speeds is being implemented because the entirety of good regression got nuked.
campings not uncounterable either. 2 people rushing the hook at once is an easy unhook, but I understand this is much harder in soloq. If campings that common just bring reassurance, it has value outside of just camping because it removes the need to unhook or 30 seconds, so 30 seconds of gens.
I don't know why people are repeating this lie of 'Healing Nerfs is paired with Regression Nerfs' ad nauseam, because it was never mentioned in the dev update as a reason. Also there is plenty of great slowdown and regression options still available. It's only the boring and skillless perks that are being nerfed, and not even their unique aspects (skill check for OC, and intel for COB). Even using that paired nerf logic it fails to understand the timers of everything else in the game. Hence why hooks would need a 50% increase in time, or at the very least 16 more seconds, to equal the added time difference of 2 people healing each other up before going for the save.
Camping isn't uncounterable, but you vastly underestimate the stupidity of soloq. I had a Ghostie Shroud camping me on Blood Lodge just out of reveal range from the hook, and a Feng was in between he and I. To be clear, she was closer to me than Ghostie was, and Ghostie didn't know she was there. The rest of the team was across the map doing gens, and she let me die from a full 60s 2nd stage because she was too scared he might show up, even though she was looking right at him as far as I could tell.
The other important factor of camping is you can't Reassurance yourself. Heck, even then when you get a good Reassurance against a camper, your soloq teammate often decides to Kobe, or another teammate figures they'll get the save, even if its clearly farming them. Do you propose everyone bring half their perk slots (Reassurance and Camaraderie) on the chance someone gets camped? The more important factor, is you shouldn't require a perk to patch a design flaw. Most people throw games trying to rescue against a facecamping Bubba, because the point of a multiplayer game is interaction. When the best action (pump gens against a facecamper) is the least fun action, the design is flawed.
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@TigerSnake said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383626#Comment_3383626
Lol, Eruption, Jolt, basekit regression, and base 2.5 damage aren’t that good at all. And Corrupt, Deadlock, NWO don’t allow playing for hooks like PR, COB, and OC did. It’s crazy, everyone doesn’t want slower healing, but also don’t want the regression perks to remain either. It’s like they just want us to be left with crumbs as perks.
I personally like SH:PR in its current iteration (not the proposed), but I can see how camping and recycling the hook can be a problem. I also would prefer Pop (max, not current) and ruin (back to 200%) to revert half of their nerfs, alongside DS (5s still). I also think they should revert the nerfs to Thana, and the shadow nerf to Bamboozle, which prevents it from speeding up modified vaults like Legion and Wesker. If I were in charge of the SH:PR change, I would either have PR proc 2x max per individual hook, or have a hook once used as a Scourge, makes a different hook (that never has been a Scourge hook) become a Scourge hook.
Even then, regression is the Dead Hard of Killer perks. It is a second chance source from a perk. Killer mains (as opposed to both sides enjoyers) hate DH so much, but can't see they are doing the same thing (both sides enjoyers understand and don't care lol). I don't like DH as Survivor due to lag, and don't mind it as Killer because I hate Sprint Burst much more. If you are a Killer main you don't see failed DHs, or moments where you are like 'I friggin pressed E, what the heck stupid laggy/buggy game'. Honestly the only fair version of DH I can come up with only provides Endurance against Special Attacks. That way M1 killers aren't nerfed, and the problem killers are still counterable.
Also COB/OC/Eruption never even required hooks, so they were always unearned, and not centered around playing for hooks (less so for Eruption, but still). Pop and SH:PR both required skill and advancing the win condition, and are healthy for the game. Anyone relying on gameplay without skill just wanted to play a single player game on story-mode difficulty. I hold that position for OC+COB/Blight/Nurse/Clock callout SWFs/4 Syringe and or BNPs, and probably more that I can't think of right now.
The issue you are mentioning is people don't want slower ALTRUISTIC healing, but near everyone understands selfish healing is absurd and should be fixed. Altruistic healing makes sense since it prevents half the Survivors from doing gens. That in and of itself is 50% slowdown. Having someone on hook is 25% slowdown, and chasing someone brings that up to another 25% for 50% total slowdown. If you are chasing someone with someone on hook and the other 2 need to heal up, you have 100% slowdown. You can reach 100% slowdown with 0 perks, just skill. If you can end that chase quick enough then the survivors are in a death spiral, and you can win without them completing a single gen.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383647#Comment_3383647
Healing will still be worth it even if the full altruistic healing speed nerf happens. Playing injured will be way more risky after the dead hard nerf.
And we do need the full altruistic healing nerf in order for injuries to feel like they matter. Remember that the goal isn’t to evaluate which survivor mechanics are problematic. The goal is to make injuries feel like they matter. The current flaw in this game is that injuries don’t feel like they matter. They might matter to you, because you are totally against this survivor nerf, but to many other people they don’t feel like they matter.
BHVR wants the healing speed nerf to effect every hit, so that injuries can feel like they matter. This is the goal. It’s fine, and should be tried out for a few months.
Injuries currently feel like they matter in games where they only have Medkits and I bring Franklins, and games where I never hear the accursed boon thunder sound. Both problem children are being addressed, and near everyone is fine with the problems being fixed. I have never heard anyone go 'gosharoonie, I just hit them and they got healed up AND the gens got completed, I guess my attacks do nothing' (edit: in matches without the above problems mentioned). It usually is a great standstill where both sides feel like they are making progress, while keeping everyone invested in the game, unlike the current state of the game. Many people see a 3-gen being kicked and decide to go next, and I can't blame them.
Would you be for a Killer nerf setting the base movement speed to 4.3, 4.2 ranged? I certainly wouldn't because I can see how bad that would destroy the game's ecosystem. Same thing here with the universal heal speeds being changed. At the very least something else like the hook timers should correspondingly change if a needless change must be made.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383871#Comment_3383871
6.1.0 had so many changes for either side it's impossible to quantify it like that.
For example, killers gained 0.2 seconds on pallet breaks, and lost nearly all of their meta gen regression, however it turned out the gen regression they got in return made up for it.
Meanwhile survivors lost endgame DS and Dead Hard, only to gain a new Dead Hard a couple weeks later when they all realised it wasn't a nerf at all. In addition to basekit BT, super-buffed OTR, and a host of minor buffs to perks like Spine Chill, Lucky Break, etc.
To say that it "massively" favoured either side is insane hyperbole.
For one, Survivors didn't lose endgame DS, they lost DS entirely. The loss of DS makes too many killers turbo-tunnel like there is no tomorrow. I literally just got done with 10 games and only 1 of them had a killer not intentionally hard tunnel off hook before all gens were done. OTR is a joke when the degen killers hit people off hook regardless, negating the use of the perk. The minor buffs to Spine Chill? You mean removing part of the perk? I'd call that a nerf. Distortion, Lightweight, and Lucky Break are the only meaningful buffs I see going down the list. Meanwhile Eruption provided 37.7% combined regression and prevention only hitting 1 gen with 1 surv (10% and incap for 25s, preventing 27.7%). Combining that with Overcharge and Call of Brine has led to innumerable people preferring to hook suicide than play the game, being held hostage in a gen kick circle.
That doesn't even mention the extra total of 50s on gens that were now required (which also shadow buffed % gen regression), while also making basekit killer end chases ~10% faster.
@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383883#Comment_3383883
Kill rates jumped high in the one single set of data we got a few weeks after the update, so it's not accounting for the Dead Hard resurgence, and to rates that are still much, much lower than kill rates used to be a couple of years ago. It also shows Sadako at the top and Nurse at the bottom. As always, relying on these kill rates is mostly meaningless.
Your survivor bias is showing. Play a killer game or twenty.
I consistently win my Killer games if I use 2 of the gen kick perks (any combo). Once I realized it was easy mode I forcibly tried to run 1 or no slowdowns. Turns out, balanced builds are good. Running SH:PR with SH:Floods lets you get all the intel you need, while hiding it under going for the PR. Add in a STBFL/Bamboozle/Brutal for a little chase lethality and you got yourself a stew going. Then you can add whatever fits in best. Weak early game? Lethal Pursuer. Weak late game? No Way Out. You have to earn your wins, but you can get them. Unlike the current gen kick perks where a Simpsons weighted bird on the spacebar could even win the game. I think people don't realize how easy it is to stomp soloq when they run into a single skilled SWF, making them forget the past 3 hours of free wins.
I'm a BP main. That means before 6.1.0 I was essentially a Killer main, as BBQ and your own skill was the best way to get the most BP. Now I follow the incentive, and soloq Survivor is near unplayable at the moment. Honestly Survivor incentive is only worth your time at 100%, as even a theoretical 99% means you have a fast enough queue as Killer to get more BP for your time spent.
I'm firmly against nerfing things based on usage, without an underlying reason or understanding. The main Killer perk nerfs I understood (in 6.1.0) was Tinkerer proccing only once per gen now, and Corrupt Intervention preventing facecamp cheese. But the majority of the Survivor nerfs were without logic, or were load bearing beams, preventing the game from collapsing upon itself in the case of DS. Also I loved old Thana, but now it is near worthless because it was overnerfed in response to a needless buff. They could have just reverted the buff and it would have been fine, or drop it to 4.5% per surv to account for the longer gen times, but instead they hard deleted the perk. Old Thana gave me so many free downs where people would try to greed the gen before running off.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383626#Comment_3383626
The official reason for the healing speed nerfs is so injuries can feel like they matter. But it feels like a whole bunch of people don’t care at all about this official reason, because they want to completely ruin it by demanding for the altruistic healing speed nerf to be reverted.
We can’t do both. We either have injuries that feel like they matter, or we cater to survivors and ruin the entire meta shift.
We can do both. Injuries matter when the time investment is enough to trick people into healing, but not enough to be better than doing gens. Currently the flaw with healing is selfish healing is a strictly better time investment. Altruistic healing is the Goldilocks just right. The proposed changes make healing not worth the effort UNLESS self-healing. This isn't catering to survivors, this is catering to game health. This is not making a disastrous change 'because'.
Every time I hear a boon as killer I sigh the same resigned sigh since the game is going to take a lot longer than it should. That is the exact same sigh as when I play surv and the killer kicks the same gen for the 20th time with OC/CoB. The perks are the problem here, not the basekit mechanic. If they want to adjust the basekit mechanic of healing to take 50% longer, then it should also take 50% longer to die on hook.
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@SilentShepherd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382803#Comment_3382803
the point is BHVR has a track record of always trying to fix things. They care. So why starve them of money, the very funds they need to keep working? BHVR's track record of always trying to improve speaks for itself.
Do they have a track record of fixing things? In order to shake up the meta, we got an even worse slowdown meta array of perks being abused. The only meaningful counter to tunneling was hard deleted against the majority of killers, and the only meaningful counter to camping is behind a paywall (Reassurance). They knew CoH was a problem since its release, but they nerfed Self-Care far before they ever dared to touch the boon. In the proposed changes we are getting a buff to Nurse and Artist, alongside nerfs to Hillbilly. Pardon me if I don't have much trust in them to make the right decisions without feedback. Wallet feedback is the best we have to make them listen.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/369515/heal-time-changes-hook-time-changes
No. Making all healing speeds longer, is the compensation for all the gen regression slowdown being shorter.
The killer perk nerfs are absolutely huge, as in they nerfed those perks into the ground. This is a fair trade, as BHVR is basically destroying an entire genre of game slowdown.
There is still more than enough slowdown to play normally, with being mentally-afk kicking the 3 gens over and over until the survivors kill themselves rather than submit to the torture. Even if you wanted to run 4 Slowdown you can still easily run No Way Out, Corrupt Intervention, Deadlock, and Jolt/Pop.
The abusive part is being fixed. They didn't nerf Eruption's 10% or Jolt's 8% per gen, they didn't nerf the basekit regression rate, they didn't nerf the 2.5% max progress regression on kick, they didn't nerf any of the Killer's basekit in nerfing the problem perks. They are nerfing the basekit of Survivor, even the non-problem parts, so the least they could do is nerf the basekit problem part of Killer to keep things in line.
Edit: Also the important part is healing is not being nerfed to make up for the problem perks being nerfed. Nowhere in the dev update do they even pretend that is the reason. The regression perks being nerfed mainly mention their overuse being the reason for being brought down. The only healing aspect you can fairly claim is CoH being nerfed alongside them, not healing in and of itself.
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@ProfessorDunwich said:
I’ve played party games. They get old fast. The amount of strategy in this game is very high, much more than other competitive games that are not dubbed party games. A skilled Killer will crush new Survivors almost every time. A group of skilled Survivors will crush a new Killer almost every time. This consistency is not seen in party games.
The competitive nature of this game makes it stressful and enjoyable. I enjoy the occasional meme or farming game, but I would not be playing if this was standard.
It is only competitive in the aspect of it being competition against other(s). The balance and mechanics are non-competitive. Any game with the disparity of capability from a tricked up add-on Blight to add-onless Myers can never be competitive in a reasonable way. It is a party game in the same vein as Mario Party, Halo, and Smash Brothers. The game isn't balanced for proper competition, but is a fun way to pass time with friends. Funnily enough the most balanced game of those was Halo, but MLG destroyed all semblance of balance and fun when they touched it.
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Perks not being freely available* by its very nature makes it P2W. *(Unlockable that is, I don't mind waiting for RNG bloodweb to get the perk) When new Survivor and Killer perks come out, they should be in everyone's bloodweb from the start, or at most after the midchapter patch if they wanted an exclusivity window. Prestiging them to get the perk on all Survs/Killers is enough incentive to get the characters. Plus the design should be interesting enough that someone will want them for their cosmetics for Surv, or gameplay style for Killer.
Also there is the problem of core design flaws needing a perk band-aid to fix such as DS/OTR for tunneling, Reassurance for camping, etc. If you couldn't get innumerable free wins through facecamping, then I would be less willing to say P2W exists.
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Gen regression perks are a crutch for bad players. They, as well as slowdown in general, are the killer's second chance perks. Now to be fair, some perks aren't so much as 2nd chance perks, as to give any chance at all perks. Those perks targeting design flaws (DS to tunneling, Reassurance to camping, etc.) where the risk/reward ratio is off, are examples of good Survivor 2nd chance perks, but arguably should have a basekit fix. A basekit flaw equivalent for Killer is Corrupt Intervention for Trapper.
Good killer second chance perks are like No Way Out, giving you extra time for the perk, but also for each different Surv you hooked. Another good killer second chance perk is Pop Goes The Weasel, as you need a hook AND gen kick to get your reward. The problem is the 0 risk all reward low hanging fruits of Overcharge and Call of Brine (and to an extent camping Scourge Hooks for hook trades). The unique valuable parts are not getting nerfed there (Overcharge skill check tanking progress, Call of Brine Intel), just the needlessly overbuffed portions.
As far as healing, altruism should remain untouched at 16 basekit seconds. You are already losing time by having an ally heal you, so the risk/reward ratio is flawed. It is more risky to group up as Survivor, as you can have 2 people forced to run at the cost of 1 chase. It should be faster to heal through altruism than alone, using the same resources at hand. This still isn't quite equal, but at least it is a step in the right direction.
There are also a few strange choices, like the DH change incentivizing tunneling further, and nerfing Billy while buffing Nurse. To be fair though, there are a decent number of good changes, like to the autohaven problem maps, and a basekit method of disarming hag traps. I just hope the silent parts are understood to largely be considered fine to BHVR, and the loud parts are fixed or at least addressed. As far as people getting loud about regression getting nerfed, I think it is because they have grown to rely on those crutches, and are unable to stand without them. They are afraid to learn to walk again, and would rather remain in their power fantasy, abusing exploits of poor design.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3380843#Comment_3380843
Altruistic healing needs to be nerfed, or otherwise SWFs could just bypass the healing nerf by always coordinating heals with their voice comms.
We’re supposed to be closing the gap beaten solo q and SWF, and solo q is more likely to use self heals. This entire meta shift requires all healing to be nerfed.
The risk and rewards of various actions should be the most important factors. The risk of an altruistic heal, is 2 (or even 3) Survivors grouped up in 1 area. This risk for the survivors, is to have 2 or 3 people be displaced by Killer intervention instead of only 1. Since this is risky for Survs, the reward needs to be proportional or even better rewarded to incentivize this. If it takes 24s to heal your self with a Brown Medkit, it should take 12s max to heal an ally (with that same Brown Medkit), since that is 2 people's time you are taking up, or the same 24s total Survivor time. This is also completely ignoring the setup time walking to one another, the heal delay from lag, etc.
With the proposed brown medkit 16.55 heal time, this is ~33 Surv seconds, which those 9s could be saved by dropping the medkit for your ally to pickup and use at their convenience. Poor design. At least the Boon change shows where people might need a heal, but doesn't tell you if someone is coming over to heal you or not.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3380801#Comment_3380801
Do you understand this is supposed to be a real dead hard nerf, and that new dead hard will still be way more useful than the killer perks that got nerfed into oblivion?
You should be caring about your teammates, and if you're trying to farm them to activate dead hard, then you shouldn't be rewarded for that. Help your teammate by taking a hit if you want dead hard that badly. And if that doesn't work, then maybe you should think about using a different perk. I'm certainly dropping a whole bunch of killer perks that got nerfed into the ground. You too can drop a survivor perk if you don't like it anymore.
But don't expect pity for the new dead hard.... considering that eruption, call of brine, pain res, and overcharge all got way harsher nerfs.
The safe quality of an unhook is only in 1 person's control, the Killer. When I unhook someone at 15 or 59s (and everywhere in between), and the killer decides to return to tunnel, even when I bodyblock to the point of being slugged, that isn't a real argument.
In regards to Killer slowdown nerfs, I have no sympathy except for the original 6.1.0 Pop and SH:PR nerfs. Those were fair, fun, and earned. Pop being 25% max for 1 hook and a gen kick is fair. Eruption being 10%+ denying 27.7% assuming you ONLY hit 1 gen with 1 person, absolutely insane. The other perks have the main aspect untouched (Call of Brine Intel, Overcharge Bonus Skillcheck tanking progression, SH:PR doing solid regression without a gen kick), but their abusive factors are nerfed, barring PR to an extent. The problem with SH:PR is camping and hook trades unfairly rewarding low skill low effort strategies with high rewards. I think a better change might be 2 max PR per Scourge Hook, with an exception for Monstrous Shine Basement hooks. I just don't think they have the programming to do that.
Also you are ignoring the other ecosystem nerfs that those are existing alongside with regression dropping. Healing is taking 50% longer basekit. While I agree self-healing is a problem, altruistic healing is not. Baby with the bathwater with that change. If you were to take that healing slowdown into the regression nerf equation, you can find Killers are getting far more than they stand to lose. Especially if you use intel and/or lethality perks instead or alongside the changes.
Since I use a balanced build on the majority of my killers, and don't rely on the crutch of regression, this is going to give me free wins for days. But that isn't what I want. I want a fair and earned victory.
Lithe doesn't require the fast vault to be over a pallet you personally dropped in the past 10s, Sprint Burst doesn't start after 5s of running, and Smash Hit doesn't require the Killer to DC from the pallet stun. I think a fair DH works against Special Attacks basekit, with an unlockable M1 endurance qualifier. This way the busted killers are fairly impacted, and current 'normal' usage can still be possible with extra hoops.
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I think this would too just right for newer players, but for experienced players it would be too much of a buff. I typically run no cooldown add-ons and have no problem approaching from odd angles and having my power whenever I need it. The main problem is this would buff the boring (and at worst oppressive) 'ChaseFace' playstyle that low skill players tend toward. This would encourage actions that cause you to lose the match, as it makes you think committing to a bad chase is a good idea.
Newer Ghosties think "if I mark them then I need to get the down", and don't recognize the pressure it gives you to effectively 'injure' that survivor for 60s. That keeps them afraid and unwilling to contribute to unhooking, or doing dangerous gens. This gives you extra hook states without camping, and makes some of the Survs dumb enough to 3-gen themselves, with little to no input on your end. That fear is an effective tool left unused if you blindly chase them instead.
To be clear, I don't want this buff, because I foresee nerfs to come with it immediately, or down the line. Those nerfs are what I don't want. I think this is a poisonous gift that will deal more harm than good.
@scoser said:
Only if they make his stealth break out more consistent. I'm staring directly at them with them in the middle of the screen while he's stalking me and it won't break them out.
Ultimately Ghostface is an M1 killer. Do you throw to not get puked on by Plague, then giving her an easy down while getting puked on in a deadzone regardless? Don't do the same with playing against Ghostie. Hide at corners and spy on him, and if you have the least hooks then chase/stalk him so he can't Mark your more hooked teammates. Stay close to pallets and/or windows so you can loop him for days. M1 killers are getting easier and easier to loop with modern map designs, so you have no excuse to not run them for longer. While I agree, the stalk mechanic is inconsistent since they swapped from Client to Server sided, unless they choose to fix that and lean/stalk bugs, we have to work with what we have. Ghostie has plenty of visual and audible tells (unless you run against the bugged Pay2Win Rift cosmetic), so you should be safe enough if you pay attention.
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@Caiman said:
Maybe the unhooker should be the one bodyblocking the killer instead, for once.
This game is so laggy and buggy, that I've been on all three sides of this equation, where the Killer hits the recently Hooked Surv THROUGH the bodyblocking Unhooking Surv. This doesn't work, and without say, a 2s Invuln off hook, it won't work.
@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3379417#Comment_3379417
Deep wounds doesn't prevent a safe unhook.......
"For an unhook to be considered as such, the just unhooked Survivor must not enter the Dying State for the following 10 seconds.""
Even if we were to pretend no Killer could tunnel that effectively (Cough Nurse, Cough Blight, Cough Bubba, Cough Huntress, Cough Pinhead with add-on, etc.), IIRC from OhTofu's Scrim Nights, it isn't exactly 10s, as you are able to deny a Deliverance by timing the tunnel just right (AKA being able to count to the basekit 10s).
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I would just have a simple matchmake ban/block, so that when you block someone they get added to a list of your 5 most recently blocked players. If you block them, you can't end up in the same match as them, but you have to at least enter a match with them first. (So you couldn't block people you never met in-game, but that could be up for debate.) You could also manually remove people and lock people in on the list. That way if you know 1 person is a total scumbag in your area, you can just keep that 1 person on the list perpetually. You could also remove someone you accidentally hit the block button on.
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The problem with the current SH:PR, is that it encourages camping and boring 3-genning. If you facecamp into a hook trade, you recycle the SH:PR. You are disproportionately rewarded for doing nothing.
I assume they don't have the technology to swap Scourge Hooks, because that would be the change I would recommend. Once you use a Scourge Hook, it converts to a normal hook, and can never be a Scourge Hook again. A different hook then becomes a Scourge Hook until it, in turn, is also used. That way SH camping isn't unfairly rewarded, barring Monstrous Shrine, which I don't have a problem with.
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This is super sad that the 'nerf the pig' meme has swapped to Billy at this point. First they took his rocketship, then every new map has invisible clutter to block his chainsaw, and now they are gunning for his Engravings.
The craziest thing about this to me, is that this is the same patch where they are BUFFING NURSE. "Yeah Flashlights don't work against her anymore, and here is a Billy nerf, suck it nurds." This is so out of touch and patently absurd.
Hopefully someone comes to their senses and doesn't let this go to live.
Personally I would buff Billy to have Lo-Pro saw basekit. It would go Healthy->Injured->Deep Wound->Downed. The add-on would upgrade this to Healthy->Deep Wound, and Injured->Downed. That way both sides can know what is going on and act accordingly.
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Right on the money, we are going to see MORE tunneling if this change goes live.
If we are going to go with this style of change where you need to 'earn' a Dead Hard, I would recommend a different avenue.
- Basekit DH only provides Endurance against Special Attacks. This helps against oppressive killers, but doesn't nerf M1 killers.
- The earn conditions are safe unhook AND being hooked/unhooked. So that being tunneled still gives you a DH full charge.
- The BT/basekit unhook Endurance no longer Deep Wounds, but does cause you to lose collision with the Killer. (This way you can't bodyblock to force a hit, but intentional tunneling is still hopefully punished.)
With those changes DH will only hit the powerful enough killers to help even the playing field. I personally would increase the Endurance duration to .75 due to how laggy the game is, but that is a personal gripe.
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@Batusalen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3304748#Comment_3304748
It is a "bit disingenuous" but not for the reasons you give, but because he is talking (at least from the games he is showing in the video) exclusively about one of the few killers that benefits most from facecamping as I said. You can't center your argument to the one killer that most benefits from that strategy and then apply your result to all the others 30 killers of the game.
The video @Archael posted is a bit more enlightening in that at least he uses multiple killers without instadowns and as you said the main objective is to camp the first hooked survivor and get the most kills after that, but again, if you watch what is shown it's clearly obvious that as I said, many time camping works because even when the save seems impossible 3 survivors will try to pull it off at all cost and end paying the price of their actions.
The best way to stop camping is punishing the killers who does it by repairing gens while he is doing and make his chases as long as possible. That's all it needs.
The problem is in the design, because players want to have fun. If countering camping requires you to do the most boring action, then the game simply isn't fun.
People want an interaction with the killer (aka actually play the game). Some people enjoy outwitting a killer by hiding, some by a hearty chase, some by using their perks, but all involve interacting with the killer. By forcing non-interaction with the killer to be the best action, survs WILL throw in order to have fun, and camping killers will continue to be rewarded until the broken design is fixed. Rewards should be tied to the risks and desired actions involved (in good design), and the only risk in camping in quickplay/soloq/anywhere outside of sweat squads will always skew heavily in favor of the killer if nothing is changed for the better. That being said, I do think there is nothing wrong with endgame camping, as the Killer has no more goals, and the greed/reward for unhooking is fair on both ends (barring maybe hook grabs, but that is another topic).
I think a Pyramid Head styled hook teleport/swap (hidden to killer) would help on the 'punish killer greed'/'help survivor' end, and slow down gens progress when no one is off gens and someone is hooked to 'help killer'/'punish survivor greed'. The second portion could also apply when someone is in chase and all remaining survivors are on gens to further the desired behaviors of unhook surv and prevent 'genrush' or more accurately here, genb4fren.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3303433#Comment_3303433
Your laboratory numbers do not hold to real world scruttiny. Also you would need 4man SWF to know what's actually happening. You want to know how it really holds up? Survivors have reassurance, or you get at minimum 2K. See:
That vid is also a bit disingenuous (as in camping is even worse than shown, even with Reassurance). That is, if people actually watched the full matches he used for the numbers. In the Reassurance re-attempt matches he actively let people use Reassurance and let them get away without taking free m1/m2s the Survivors gave him by getting within range to use the perk (only 1 or 2 matches there was a meaningful separate story Reassurance if I recall correctly). He wasn't trying to win with a heavy emphasis on camping, he was trying to exclusively camp to see the effectiveness of facecamping only. Also two of the matches in the re-attempt he straight up got juiced (one on Ormond), and that would happen Reassurance or no. Again, compared to the test sample where he never got juiced.
If you do that same test now, you will find only 10-50% of matches with even a single Reassurance compared to the average of ~1-3 Reassurances per match at the timing of the video (either the end of week of the chapter release or the week after). If you would focus on winning soloq with a heavy emphasis on camping then it would probably only drop to 80-90% win rate (from 100%), with still no meaningful skill expression. You can still easily work around Kinship/Reassurance by leaving the hook and chasing and facecamping your next victim, then tunneling the Reassured survivor if rescued.
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People have a tendency to call it a party game because the balance is non-competitive. Mario Party is also a party game, where you can win every minigame, but still lose because you get bad dice rolls on the map and never get a star. The fun comes from using the random tools however you see fit, but not sweating off your keister for every advantage and taking 'wins' seriously. You also can have situations like everyone ganging up on one person spamming Boos to steal coins and stars.
Similarly in DBD, you have a bunch of fun playstyles and gimmicks like stealth perks on non-stealth killers, or the opposite, that being chase perks on stealth killers. The mixing and matching of mechanics is where the prime capacity for enjoyment lies. People often call it a party game because a decked out Nurse on Midwich is an entirely different game than an adept attempting Trapper on say Garden of Joy or The Game. These are falsely being treated as equal, by virtue of each being 'Killers'. Similarly you can have god-tier survivors, or people with single-digit hours. To take the game seriously in the state it is in, quite frankly, is a joke.
There are also core design philosophies that don't mesh with a fair and remotely balanced competitive game. In general, risk and reward are measured against one another, in order to determine the efficacy of any given tactic. Some mechanics are well designed in terms of what you give up versus what you stand to gain. Flashlights saves and sabotaging hooks are a good example for survivor actions, versus self-healing with medkits being a bad one (why is self-healing with medkits more rewarded than healing a teammate with one in a 'team' game?). Similarly Killer has core problem actions like facecamping and tunneling off of hook (in soloq moreso). This is the equivalent of Boo spamming one person in Mario Party, it doesn't guarantee a win, but it solidifies in most cases you just want to say 'eff you' to one person in particular.
In short bad balance, but fun to goof around = party game. Taking it seriously typically ruins the fun for all involved, and can cycle others into taking the game too seriously. Reminding yourself and others that 'it is just a party game' is a good way to disarm a bad experience and prevent cycling that scumbaggery into the next match. It is important to reinforce 'BNP/Blight/Syringe/Nurse = cringe' as others have put it (except against each other), because the social disincentive is one of the few protections we have in order to help not see them in every match. If there were a limited number of map bans for Killers to utilize, or Killer bans for Survivors to utilize, it would help severely limit the worst of interactions. Note that wouldn't prevent jerks from being jerks, but it would help sanitize an otherwise diseased environment a bit.
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@TheWheelOfCheese said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3249139#Comment_3249139
The common definition of an exploit includes "use of elements of a game system in a manner not intended by the game's designers, in a way that gives a substantial unfair advantage to players using it." So I suppose you could argue that it's not a "substantial unfair advantage" since it almost always backfires, so the advantage is arguably negative -- but I have a hard time imagining you could argue in good faith that CJ is "use of elements of a game system in a manner intended by the game's designers."
I would say this is technically all intended by the devs independently, but when combined it creates a fringe scenario. It is based on the poor design of 'spacebar does everything'. In this scenario, you hit spacebar for 'break pallet' but you can't break pallets while a Survivor is vaulting them using this spacebar method. The next spacebar action possible is 'pick up survivor', so the Killer does that instead. A similar problem occurs for console Survivors against Pinhead. You can't properly choose between 'drop pallet' and 'break chain', but at least there is an option to fix this. Too many console players don't have a separate binding for Pinhead specifically, since you don't even know you need to do that until you run into this problem.
The solution is unbinding spacebar from everything. Allow 'basic' controls to be the 'spacebar does everything' that we currently have, but add custom options for each action, so if you have the keyboard or controller space, then you can use it as you choose. If the Killer can have the option to have one button be 'break pallet' (among others), then there should be less issues.
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@Brimp said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3248205#Comment_3248205
So playing efficiently as killer (aka tunneling) is considered a game flaw? Also playing efficiently in a PVP game is always gonna lead to the other side not having fun so calling that a "design flaw" is just not logical.
It is a design flaw because the risk reward ratio is off. In most scenarios you want riskier moves to be more rewarding, and safer moves to be less rewarding. This design philosophy is seen with quite a good number of Killer powers. If you miss a Shred as Demo or a Dash as Wesker, you have a cooldown slowing you down and/or limiting your camera movement until completed. At the same time you can get an easier hit in circumstances that this can help accomplish. Risk up, reward up. Hard tunneling off of hook has no such risks involved, especially when you compare the maximum 2 health states of an unhooked survivor, shortened to 1 if you have the ability to count to 10 while using your ears (no crying = hit early to bust through OTR). Compare that to the rescuer, who likely will have less hook states, and more maximum health states (3 with an endurance effect). Low risk high reward, so it is clearly bad. To improve this, we should seek to make it more risky to tunnel, and/or more rewarding to go after the rescuer instead.
The only circumstance where you want low risk to be more rewarding, is in single-player games when you turn the difficulty down. You feel good because you can defeat your opposition, but you aren't accomplishing as much in terms of skill. In a multiplayer game you should expect a normal risk-reward paradigm, and deviations from that, in general, are bad. If I do the equivalent thing in a multiplayer game to 'turn the difficulty down' I am acknowledging my failure to compete with my opposition, and/or engaging in a power trip. Same thing if you bring a BNP every match, pick Blight/Nurse every match, use syringes every match, etc.
@AJStyIez said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3248205#Comment_3248205
So basically all the inconveniences and annoying gameplay for Survivors are design flaws that NEEDED to be addressed, but a Killer QoL buff that’s been asked about for years is ridiculous because 1 other patch in the Summer that gave QoL buffs that they also had to beg 5 years for
You contradicted yourself multiple times, Just say you only play one side and don’t want this because it doesn’t benefit you
As detailed in the above response, bad risk-reward is bad design. QoL is nice, but not a substitute for proper design in the first place. Design flaws should be addressed before QoL, but when QoL is easy to implement without unseen consequences it should be done. For example UI navigation. The menu change imo was an excellent QoL feature, especially being able to select both sided tomes simultaneously. There are no such balance considerations in doing so. Also QoL need not be a strict buff to sided performance as seen with the menus. A simple QoL change for Killer would be a small Deerstalker effect. It has no effect on chase, and helps when foliage is just a bit too tall with lag potentially moving a downed Survivor to where you wouldn't be expecting them. While the time saved may be massive for later in the game (getting that SH:PR preventing a gen pop), it is accelerating the already earned process of picking up a downed Survivor in a positive way imo. Speeding up carry movement speed to faster than Survivor's movement would be an example of a bad QoL change, as it is currently designed with the idea that carrying a Survivor makes you slower than a Survivor. They both serve the same goal of getting a downed Survivor hooked sooner, but one can have less negative or unintended consequences than the other.
I don't see where I contradicted myself, as all of it is logically consistent with a better experience overall for game health, although to be fair not personal health. One issue causes new factional players to hard quit and not spend money/continue to play the game, where the other factional issue is largely a strict buff under the guise of 'accessibility'. To be fair, I could be wrong on the second point here, as FOV based motion sickness is a personal issue that I am not being given studies or other fact based information to show me otherwise (is it 1 in 3, or 1 in 300k? is it unbearable to the point of uninstalling or a mild nuisance?).
Just because you are so entrenched in the petty tribalism of Killer vs Survivor doesn't mean everyone else shares your flaw. I detailed numerous buffs and nerfs to both sides that I would like to be implemented here (and in 2-10 each independently as different posts).
There is a google doc with all the sections, and this is one of those many subsections. I could update the formatting and organization, but I largely stand by most all of those changes even now. Some such nerfs to Survivor include slower solo gen speeds (except on only solo-able gens), basekit Call of Brine reveal for good co-op gen skill checks, and med-kit self-healing cut to 2/3rds. Some basekit Killer buffs include, but aren't limited to, lesser Grim Embrace basekit (that can proc twice now, both basekit and perk), Devour Hope styled speed boost but only for leaving hook, a small basekit Deerstalker, the smashing aspect of Shattered Hope becoming an optional basekit (as in you can choose to snuff or smash, on a totem by totem basis), and possible buffs for some of the weaker Killers and perks (that being both sides though). So don't lie and try to claim or otherwise infer I am a Survivor main, only wanting changes for one side. Try to take more of the information on its face, and have less preconceived notions going into threads assuming anyone who disagrees with you is a factional or tribal opponent. I try to explain the 'why' of everything, that is why my posts tend to be longer. I give people ample opportunity to detail why my 'whys' are wrong, and you have done none of that, leading me to believe you want to drown out a dissenting voice, instead of attack the merits of my reasoning.
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@PPRG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3248205#Comment_3248205
oh boy this is a long one.
for one tunneling is not a design flaw its just a strategy used to get survivors out of the game faster its killrushing no different then genrushing its not fun to be on either end of each
and lets be real no matter how many changes to tunneling or camping they make people probably wont 100% stop unless they guarantee lose because of it until then nobody is going to be satisfied
another thing is that the fov has always been a big issue especially on console with console already being clunky enough as it is the 70 fov is just icing to the cake that is the disaster of console
also when you mention hard of hearing players they literally redesigned spine chill for hard of hearing players the fact that they haven't made advanced sound control is just because its an outdated system that has yet to be addressed
also if you use the "tier 1 brutal strength" or "2 extra tokens of stbfl" as an excuse for why killers dont need any basekit you should play killer and see how absolutely none of it helped at all unless you run brutal or stbfl on top of them which is situational.
Tunneling not a design flaw - I would say anything that anything that results in significantly less fun for most players in a game, that is designed for the players to have fun, is a design flaw (beyond the scope of a raw win/lose, it is the how that matters). Also Genrushing is largely copium, as when Killers tunnel Survivors, the remaining Survivors focus gens. The only legit genrushing I've seen is BTL/Streetwise/Stakeout/Hyperfocus/Commodius+both charge add-ons each solo-ing gens. Most Killers I've seen complaining about 'genrushing' see Prove Thyself on 1 person and say 'filthy genrushers', or something similarly false. PT slows you down on gens vs solo-ing, so it only can save you time with grouping to break up a 3-gen. I will say I dislike as Killer what I term as 'GenB4Fren', aka popping a gen before going for the rescue on hook. Most times if you have a ~60-80s first chase/hook, you will have 3 people doing that. Unfortunately the only way I can think to fix that is reverse gen efficiencies. Or more specifically the individual speeds on gens for 1 Surv is slower alone, 2 is same speed as now, and 3/4 is faster than now. This way when Survs solo, they are more gen efficient, but less match time efficient. Also if you see gens popping or run Discordance, you can interrupt them and get the reward of displacing more Survivors with 1 action, as action economy so to speak is Killer's weakest spot.
Changes to camping/tunneling - Exactly, make it less rewarding, and more inefficient to camp and tunnel rather than play normally. Make it so you kill other people faster or get some other type of reward for spreading the pain, while also penalizing camping and tunneling. Alternatively or in concert you could add some form of Obi-Wan Force Ghost system, allowing early Kill victims to 'become more powerful than you can possibly imagine'. Overall nerf it so you can only ruin 1 person's day by facecamping, but no one else in that match. Even then maybe add a Pyramid Head styled feature to hooks as well, hiding the teleport from the facecamping Killer. That all being said that should only take effect when gens are the goal, I am fine with camping/tunneling when the gates are powered or even opened.
Console/FOV - The only place that I find mentioning of FOV is on the wiki for Shadowborn, listing it at 87°. It doesn't say anything about different FOV for console. Also all you need to do is angle the camera slightly downward to not be spun (barring any console bugged differences that I am unaware of).
HoH/Spine Chill - Yeah, they changed it in a negative way that I detailed how I would fix. Even then it is a 'perk tax' if you have a specific disability, so even 'fixed' it is nothing different from Shadowborn. Although to be fair, Shadowborn requires Prestiging Wraith, and Spine Chill is a general perk.
Didn't help Killers - I am a BP main, which means prior to the BBQ nerf I was a nearly exclusive Killer main, only playing Surv with friends or for tomes/achievements. Even then, Survivor is only worth my time when playing alone with 100% incentive. Even if I saw it at 99% Surv I would queue up as Killer instead, because I can guarantee my own effectiveness, but not my Survivor allies'. Also I can ensure I can get all Killer BP caps (minus sacrifice) in the vast majority of matches in a reasonable amount of time. With Survivor I have to hope the Killer does a little bit of hit and run, no camping, I team up 0-100 on 2 gens, and jump through all these hoops to get a reasonable amount of BP. If I go against Plague, I am especially disincentivized to do anything other than end the match as quickly as possible, as an entire BP category (altruism) is basically unobtainable. The only thing more enjoyable is SWF where everyone brings BPS/Cakes/Flans, because then you can get a decent amount of BP barring a facecamping Bubba. If you honestly think that the buffs didn't help Killer, then I don't think you are playing the same game as I. In the theoretical hold-W against an M1 Killer it drops the time from 20s to 18s. That may not seem like much, but it adds up quite quickly when you also consider most Killers have a power to shorten this (barring misplays). I also have no problems with insta-down Killers like Ghostface and Bubba, who got comparatively less with only the pallet break speed helping Ghostie, and gen kicks helping both (although I don't even run gen kick perks usually). Also when Survivors accidentally run into a wall for a fraction of a second after you hit them, now you can really feel it, as they rarely have enough time to make it to the next pallet or window now. Even the most skilled of players do this from time to time. Honestly I think the most relevant factor of the game is the duration of the first chase and subsequent hook, and any change to reduce this snowballs massively. Overall I don't think Killer needed or needs basekit changes (unless facecamping and tunneling were to be fixed). I think the top and bottom 5 or so Killers needed changes to squeeze them closer to the middle. Also for both Killer and Survivor all the non-meta perks should be competitive for slots against meta perks.
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@Jallybwan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3248073#Comment_3248073
I do get that to some extent, but let's think about it for a second - let's say an FOV slider would be a gameplay advantage worth thinking about. Wasn't that also true, more true, of BT? If that's the case, then wouldn't an FOV slider still be a good change, even if it technically would be a killer buff?
That's kinda what I don't understand. Even if you think anything providing a gameplay advantage should be a perk, what about the perks like Brutal Strength and BT they've made base that have proven to be good changes?
I can understand considering FOV a significant gameplay advantage to some extent, even if I personally disagree - I just don't see how it invalidates the genuine accessibility issues that are caused by it being locked to a perk slot.
Out of curiosity, how do you see it?
BT is a game health issue because it addresses a hard design flaw. Objectively it makes sense to go for someone with half the health, and far closer to death (hook states), so there needs to be a buffer to prevent abuse. If you are hard tunneled off of hook you typically don't have a chance to have fun playing the match, making the game bleed players as seen on the steam charts. Anecdotally, I have a friend new to the game and surprise surprise, the Killer turbo-tunnels him like the Killer is playing for money, and as a result he is losing interest in learning to play the game. Facecamping is another hard design flaw that has no basekit fix yet either, as you can more or less guarantee a minimum of a 2k facecamping when done 'right'. Also it is important to keep in mind, that before that patch, you could have 0-3 anti-tunnel mechanisms (3 if you count Dead Hard used for anti-tunnel), and now we have a minimum and maximum of 1. DS might as well be hard deleted, and you can only have 1 endurance effect per recovery. Since they moved all anti-tunnel effects into endurance, combined with being unable to stack endurance, we are left with a horrendous state of the game in the extremes of bad matches. It is only because those games are rarer for some, that I believe they haven't been addressed.
Basekit Shadowborn is more of an accessibility vs inherent difficulty/designed aspect. If we design a game around vision, we can't expect blind people to participate at all, no matter how much we want it to be 'accessible'. Whilst most games are designed with sight in mind, DBD is also designed with a limited FOV in mind for Killer, in order to emulate the Predator/Prey relationship. The intended difficulty is tied to the limited FOV, and as such, it may be harder to determine which level should be accessible. As previously mentioned in the thread, we don't allow chase music to be turned down for Hard of Hearing players, and similarly we don't allow FOV for motion sickness players. Sound is something shared by both sides, so I would argue that should be higher on the 'accessibility' list.
They added partial Brutal Strength and STBFL (and reverse Overcome) to raise kill rates. Game health could be argued here since 60% is the target kill rate. If the kill rate is too high, more Survivors won't play. If the kill rate is too low, more Killers won't play.
Finally, the 'accessibility' fixes have largely been mixed to bad, and by that I mean usually 1 good thing with 2-5 bad things. They didn't want Spine Chill as a replacement for hearing, and then was buffed against Stealth Killers, who it wasn't supposed to nerf, and the change was intended to help instead. Flashlights didn't have an auditory and visual slowdown without also changing functionality, so they got nerfed out of being able to readjust a save. Readjusting a save arguably taking more skill than getting the save in the first place, since you need to both recognize when to release, and for how long. So in each case of these 'accessibility' changes, we are losing more than we stand to gain. I would argue the steps backwards are far more damaging than the 'fixes'. Note that I am not saying they shouldn't be worked on, just different execution. For Spine Chill, I would simply have it not work against undetectable Killers (or only work when you are within range of their sound cues, eg. Ghostie's cape flapping, or Myers' breathing). For Flashlights, I would have the visuals and sound of the current Flashlight, with the mechanical functionality of the old. That way it wouldn't mess with people who have the conditions affected, but still allows the same mechanics such as readjusting a save or changing direction during movement.
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3244675#Comment_3244675
Taking extra hits for sabotage implies that saboteur would need to be fixed - in description it states you sabo in 2.5s but in reality it's 3s. As killers are able to consecutively hit you at 2.7s, you would need to be able to tank like 5 hits for this to have any effect + sabo loosing CD (basically you would use sabotage only to not loose collision). Or purple toolbox with both speed addons. This is too big of an investment to be worth anything. I mean you can have sabo squad making you not hook anyone, but they won't do gens to get it efficiently. It's bad tactics that might be a little fun, but it almost guarantees you loosing the game.
What I am trying to say is, that this change would be almost meaningless buff.
IMO what would be meaningful buff is @mizark3 's version (this might even see some real usage - still not meta) or @sizzlingmario4 's version (I think this will buff the usage rate only a little, but we would maybe see this perk go closer to 1% usage rate).
I might be mistaken, but I thought @sizzlingmario4 's version was how it worked prior to the 6.1 nerf and subsequent un-nerf. I thought you could restack MoM after activating it, but now you have the flaw of the Killer having perma aura-read on you while you are healthy. That generally means the Killer will find you and chase you, down you, and now you are on hook with the aura portion reset. Theoretically though you could repeatedly heal and put yourself back in the chase to get your MoM stonks. Maybe that was a bug or just the Killer tunnel visioning my friend and slugging me in favor of staying on them, technically resetting it though by my entering the Dying state. It was a while ago and I haven't used MoM as much as I did previously.
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3244584#Comment_3244584
Oh there is nothing more that killer can do to make the experience worse. People like the one who created this thread https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/352131/there-should-be-an-option-to-play-vs-solo-survivors-only-as-a-killer are rather common. There will not be anything more they can do. There is already way too many blights that send you to mcmillan with C33 and alchemist ring. Also I still can't fathom why making the game balance for 3 out of 5 wins for killer a good idea. I find it inherently unfair. But it explains all the new tiles and everything that has been happening lately with the game
To be fair the kill rate number is inflated due to being able to largely facecamp a free kill at endgame, so the minimum is somewhere between 0 and 25%, and the max is partially gated by whether the Killer slugs for 4k or not. If we were to assume Hatch was strictly a 50/50*, and no Killers Slug for 4k, the max is an average of 87.5%. The average of 25% and 87.5% is 56.25%. If we were to assume Killers kill the last survivor 4/5 times$, then this would reach the 60% total average. I do think a solid percentage of players slug for 4k (minimum 1/3), and after that quite a decent number of Killers still win hatch race.
*(even though I think it is closer to a 60/40 to 70/30 in the Killer's favor with the normal 4.6, not even including Mobility Killers)
$(by winning Hatch race or slugging for 4k, for a total of 95% Kills [or 75%+20% out of max 25%])
Also this kill rate is deflated by 'farming' Killers and Killers who don't care about kills. Before MMR I would play 'the 2 hook tango'. I would get 2 hooks on each Survivor, and let them escape (if they didn't hook suicide a state), capping my BP categories on Brutality/Deviousness/Hunter. I never intentionally farmed, as I didn't really care if Survs capped their categories, I just sought to cap my own. Before I could stay in 'Red Ranks' with that strategy, and 'win' my matches by getting 2 hooks each and never be forced to Kill. I would get challenging matches against enjoyable opponents. I much preferred giving 5k BP per Surv, as I know the grind is disgusting, and I would do my best to fix the problem. Now however, I more or less am forced to Kill people if I don't want to play against Baby Survs. It is quite frustrating, since even with consistently getting 3/4ks (since I don't slug for 4k/hatch race), I still go against too many Baby Survs. I would honestly rate my Killer 'win' rate at 90%-95%, and Kill rate at ~65-75% post-MMR*. On occasion I let people go cause I feel like it (hatch or 4 man), but I know I am punished by the system for having more net fun (both for myself and most Survs) in that match by doing so.
*(I'm not trying to say I'm godlike here, just saying soloq and matchmaking is a joke)
This 60% expected kill rate could be expected to be lower if the design flaws (imo) of facecamping (and to a lesser extent 16m proxy camping), and hard tunneling off of hook are fixed. Then you could reasonably expect a 50% Kill/Escape Rate.
I do agree with the sentiment that 'top tier' mains are a blight (no pun intended) on the game. I think they want easy wins and want to pretend they reached that conclusion from skill. To be fair however, I think the Survivors sending Killers to Macmillan/Autohaven are just as sweaty and undesirable of players as the 'top tier' Killer mains.
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@Kosturko92 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3244588#Comment_3244588
I say 1/10 stomped, that doesn't mean i don't have matches where i fairly lose and have fun.
Stomp means i get 1 hook or 2 attacks during the whole match.
I know because i check profiles.
My mmr is quite high as avrg hours on survivors i face is around 5k+, unless the game decides to put me higher ( and many times even lower, against total newbies ) but that is MMR issue
The only way I could believe 1/2 hook matches being the Survivor's fault is with full comp-squads, pre-dropping pallets and holding W when they should.
Otherwise it sounds like misplays on your end, in which case it is better to 'lose and learn' than win and remain ignorant imo. Did someone lead you to main building while the 3 gens behind you popped? Did you screw up a mindgame? Did you use your power too early or too late? It honestly is worth recording all matches and deleting the wins, in order to review the losses and learn how not to lose in the future.
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@maximo99ac said:
I DONT CARE IF I HAVE TO WAIT TWO MINUTES I WANT GOOD TEAMMATES NO POTATOS THAT DO NOTHING FOR THE ENTIRE GAME
What you are actually asking for is the removal of the tome system. I would argue Tomes cause more losses than inefficient teammates that are allegedly in your skill level. (I say allegedly because I think Escape based individual MMR is a very inaccurate measure of skill.)
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@Kosturko92 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3244476#Comment_3244476
Not really, i am getting stomped by SWF's teams every 10th game or something and it is far from FUN.
I do play survivor as well, just very low mmr and i chill, i don't care if i die or escape and most of the time we lose because teammates in solo quee are just selifsh most of the time.
I complain for High Elo SWF being busted not "ALL survivors"
You say SWF for 1/10, but how many of those matches did you also face a SWF of friends dinking around and losing? How did you KNOW that the losses were SWF if you didn't see them at least friended with each other on whatever platform you play on. If you are theoretically 'high MMR' you very easily could have actually gone against 4 separately good players, whose understanding of the game is at the level of knowing who should do what and when.
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I would only go with the 3rd, at a rate of 1/5 round down. So with our current 38 available maps Killers could ban 7.
Personally I would also have map offerings be changed with this as well.
First off, all map offerings are rolled into 1 offering. When you pick the map offering you get a sub menu to pick the specific map. This also helps with inventory bloat.
With 7 bans there are 31 maps to be 'rolled' from. Survivor map offerings add 3 extra 'rolls' for a specific map. Killer map offerings add the 31-38 rolls (depending on number of bans used) for the map they want. This way they can avoid banning certain maps to raise their odds of a map being rolled against offerings.
In a circumstance where a survivor brings an offering for a map that is banned, they still add 3 'rolls' to the map pool subtracted by 1 for the ban, for a total of 2 rolls out of the new total, 33 if all 7 bans are used, and only 1 map offering being made.
Finally, the Sacrificial Ward is buffed to prevent the maps being offered from showing up, instead of only preventing the bonus chance. This still can be negated by 4 identical map offerings, but those would lock in the realm now instead of the map.
One positive aspect of this is if some maps are universally banned at a disproportionate rate, then BHVR can see which maps are the problem children and might need altering in some way.
One neutral aspect of this is Kill rates will likely go up, resulting in some form of Survivor compensatory buff later down the line. Since BHVR wants 60% kill rates we can expect Survivor's would get something to counterbalance this. Hence why this is in Neutral.
Another neutral aspect is neither side can as easily force maps. Since both sides can do this, both for good and for ill, I place this here in the middle. I thoroughly enjoy Lery's Scratched Mirror Myers matches as both sides, but despise Midwich matches against Nurse.
A negative aspect is Killers won't learn how to play on their bad maps as much, so they will be all the more annoyed when a map offering rolls the map. This can also lead to Survivors having a worse experience as the Killer could be aggravated enough to play in a manner the Survivor's don't enjoy, in an attempt to 'equalize' the suffering.
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I think the original version allowed for 3 of any type of hit, and they changed it to 3 prot. What if we hybridized the system?
You need 6 tokens, 2 are given per prot hit (with the same 3 only prots to activate), and 1 for any other type of hit (or 1 per hit, and a bonus 1 token on prot hit, functionally the same, but programmatically different). You would need 6 personal hits to activate it with yourself alone, but you could do a combination of prot and normal.
Eg. I take 2 protection hits for a teammate, going down. I am currently at 4/6 tokens. I get Healed by my hook rescuer, and the Killer hits me at the last second, but they swap aggro to my teammate. I am now at 5/6 tokens. I heal myself up in a teammate's boon, and the Killer finds me on a gen after hooking the prior person mentioned taking aggro. I am now injured with MoM prepped at the full 6/6 tokens. The Killer continues to chase me and activates MoM, leaving me alone to instead go after the now Make Your Choice affected rescuer. I heal back up in the boon, but now the Killer has perma aura-read on me until the Killer decides to injure me again.
I think the personal vs protection difference would be good at 2 to 1 ratio, but this could also be tested with a different ratio. For example a ridiculous 10 to 1 would need 30 tokens, giving 10 tokens per prot, and 1 per normal. It could also be tested with different hit types, for example Special vs Normal giving differing token amounts. This could run into an issue with Killers such as Legion however, so I would only recommend testing 2 prot 1 all others before anything more fancy.
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3239856#Comment_3239856
The person who is not considering other people's feelings is the DCer. You can go as irrational as you want with your justifications but Nurse is part of the game; ragequitting is not and that's why it has a penalty associated with it.
Just because one person isn't considering other people's feelings, doesn't mean they are the only one to do so.
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3239789#Comment_3239789
Otz also stated in his video about changes for Killers that Nurse is not over powered. As well, people DC for many reasons that have nothing to with Nurse, and if you want to use ancedotal evidence, more often than they do on Nurse according to my experience and that of other people that have commented on multiple threads. The person who is not considering the feelings of other people is the DCer. If you do not have enough consideration for other people to not DC you are a terrible player in a team based role.
That's quite a way of dancing around the issue. Nurse isn't OP, its just her add-ons and perk synergies (that there is 0 incentive not to bring your best every match, and might as well be assumed in most cases) that are OP. You also forgot to mention that Nurse not being OP in that video was met with a heavy asterisk that qualified (my shortening and rephrasing ->) "make maps not garbo". Essentially all maps need equal levels of LOS blockers such as Garden of Joy, where the 2nd blink isn't essentially a guaranteed hit. It requires a read of the Survivor instead of a paint by numbers go to last seen spot, 2nd blink and swing on them. That vid basically said Haddonfield is unplayable against Nurse, and all 4 changes were still nerfs in that video. That is being compared to say Trapper's 4 buffs, Bubba's mix of buffs and nerfs (mostly buffs), and most other Killer's problem areas being nerfed but otherwise being net buffed.
I accounted for the alternative DCs and how they can easily be broken down into the 'why'. You may experience more DCs with tunneling/camping/bad cereal days from Survivors than others, but can you honestly say that any other Killer has as great of a DC on the first identifying information coming into clarity? Can you honestly say that people DC more against the Onryo black circle on Survivor portraits, or the Demogorgon Shred noise, or the Oni Blood noise, or a Plague fountain, or a Jigsaw Box, or any other unique identifier tied to a specific Killer?
In more situations than not, the person not considering other's feelings is the Nurse selecting Killer. A DC against a Nurse theoretically ends the match sooner. Someone picking Nurse, on average, would want a free/easy win, and someone wanting to not go against Nurse, on average, would want the match over with sooner. As twisted as it seems, it often can result in a greater net positive outcome as everyone's goals are simultaneously being advanced. It is the wrong way of going about it, and I cannot endorse the DC in any aspect, but it still fast tracks both sides' goals. It is a rare case of something bad having a net positive result. We should structure the system so this isn't possible, so only good things have positive results, instead of bad things having even the fringe potential for positive results.
That is why I offered the Killer ban system, so people who are fine with going against Nurse can simply not ban her. It is a problem that largely fixes itself with Killer bans. I don't believe I mentioned the other aspect, but there would also be an additional BP incentive for the least banned killers, and this would include variety bans. This would give the bottom 40% lowest banned Killers a 25% variety bonus, with an extra 25% more for the bottom 20%, for a total of 50%. This would help balance Killer pick rates, and if there were reasons for lower pick rates then there would be more eyes on why they aren't picked. This way the Killers no one wants to play get selected for the variety bonus, then the players comment "hey this makes this Killer feel bad, that's why no one picks them". Ideally then these issues would be fixed due to greater visibility.