mizark3
mizark3
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@CamperSluggerVillain said:
if only there were more than 3 viable killers.... oh well IT'S ALWAYS WESKEN TIME
I know, its super hard to win with my beloved 0 gen slowdown Sloppy Deathbound A Nurse's Calling Sadako (not using Condemn or RIng Drawing, although sometimes you swap out Deathbound for Face the Darkness), Ghostface, Hubris Larry, Wesker/Blight/Nurse without perks or with meme perks, Dredge with Lavalier, Pinhead in soloq, Artist with DMS, Mister Yeehaw with STBFL, Oni with a chase perk or two, Plague/Legion with Thana/Blood Echo, Spirit with a headset, Clown with Cigar Box, Pyramid Head with cage tunneling, Huntress with auras and/or double CD hatchets, Wraith with Nowhere to Hide+Pop. Oh wait. That was more than 3... Garsh. I even forgot to mention some. Oh well, I'm sure none of them are actually viable, and it just requires focused dedication to a single Killer to learn any of their basic facets. Most certainly not possible to learn through variety gameplay. /s
In all seriousness, if you aren't afraid to lose, eventually you'll learn to win. Lose 5 to win 50. You only near exclusively face sweat squads if you near exclusively sweat yourself.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3483702#Comment_3483702
I am looking forward trail of torment for sure, but you are not really stealth killer, because of it.
Everyone can see, you went stealth and where was your last position. It's also highly map dependant.
Eruption was an issue for SWF if you didn't know how to make call outs properly. Was that perk good? Yeah, but nowhere near as good as against soloQ. Effectiveness of Eruption SWF vs soloQ is not even close.
Same goes for MFT. It is still good against Wesker, or Blight and can save you for sure. It's just not insane perk.
But if you play against Knight, Doctor, Legion, Plague, Hag, then it gets into broken state.
It's not really about low skill as Huntress, Trickster, Deathslinger. There are loops where you can't use your power. Mainly rock loops, you have to either drop chase or force it for pallet drop. MFT makes this so much worse.
Huntress/Slinger rock 'infinites'. Yeah, it exacerbates and existing problem, but you still get the down on the large rocks. It takes longer, sure, but you still get the down. When it comes to the full height loops that aren't jungle gyms it basically tests the player's map knowledge and Slinger/Huntress hitbox knowledge. Jungle gyms require timed snipes rounding corners.
Knight, Doctor, Legion, Plague, Hag - Yeah, yep, what?, excuse me lol, maybe fair enough (Hag is in the Knight's camp of nothing of value being lost though). Any bog standard M1 Killer can deal with it easily enough other than the first 2 you listed, as detailed before. Legion and Plague though?!? They legit are among the best users of both Thana and/or Blood Echo, which hard shuts down staying injured to play against their power. If they heal, then you win from massive slowdown with Legion, or red puke as Plague. All it takes with Legion/Plague is 1 good 50-50 mindgame in the worst of normal cases (other than shack/GoJ Window/some of Campbell's main building layouts, but those latter examples are why I use Bam on Legion even before MfT came out.)
Eruption was an issue for SWF if you didn't know how to make call outs properly - So 99.99% of matches it was a problem? I gave an example of your usual SWF match, as nearly no one is calling out like Hens' sweat squad style. You couldn't meaningfully 'call out' Eruption unless you were purposely losing in chase to proc it early. Even then that would give plenty of slowdown by shortening chases and providing greater pressure. Heck even if we ignore SWF entirely it was something like 60% of matches it would be oppressive in its own right.
ToT - Yeah to be fair I was hyping up my main man ToT, like I said, lemme sell my Snake Oil. The issue is hypothetically does everyone hop off gens until you see the chase on the HUD, or do they pump gens and risk the free damage state? I have a positivity bias towards ToT, so I can't give a strictly fair answer to that, but I think they pump gens and risk it. However I get value once in a match and call it worth the perk slot, kind of like Blast Mine as well. I won, even if I lost, because I got ToT/Blast Mine value. Positivity bias.
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@Shroompy said:
There are plenty of Survivor techs that have been in the game for years that are barely complained about yet have much more of an impact. Here a few just off the top of my head:
Trap Buffering: At first was declared a bug which was fix, and was intentionally reintroduced in a later patch
Crouch Tech: Makes some killers glide right off of you instead of landing a hit because of crouching at a surface that is lower than the killer (Most notable killers are Billy, Blight and Demo)
Window Tech: Allows you to phase through the killer while theyre performing a vault. Al though difficult and inconsistent, can still very much throw the killer off
CJ Tech: Vaulting into a locker, window, or most commonly a pallet to make the killer pick up a downed Survivor thanks to overriding the prompt.
Vault Tech: While the Wraith or Sadako are cloaked/demanifested, spam vault at pallet to force them to uncloaked/manifest.
Stagger Cancelling: Using a prompt (most commonly vaults) to cancel a stagger from either a drop down or killer power
Phase Tech(?): Using a map, key, or the perk Clairvoyance grants you the ability to lose collision with the killer.
Input Buffer: Allows the person to complete an action that they otherwise wouldnt be able possible thanks to your action taking priority. Most commonly shown with The Doctor with vaulting or dropping a pallet despite being shocked. Can also be done by getting a fast vault by buffering the input at an odd angle.
Then there are several other killers who have insane techs, way more impactful than hug tech will ever be (Not all of these are as strong as hug tech, but they are still clearly unintended and can still be very impactful depending on the situation)
Input Buffering: Similar to Survivors, but can be used with some killer powers instead. Most notable being Trapper who can place traps in places he otherwise wouldnt be able to, causing the trap to be shoved into the ground (only works on specific spots)
Curving: Utilizing certain obstacles, allows killers who have some sort of collision mechanic to slide right off of said obstacle despite running directly into it. Most notable examples being Billy, Demo, and Blight
Flicking: Allows certain killers to ignore their camera restrictions while using their power. Most notable being Oni or Pyramid Head
FL Cancel: Allows killers to cancel their powers due to being blinded. Most notable example being Legion
Locker Bend(?): Allows the Dredge to exit a locker at a different angle. Some what inconsistent and can leave him stuck inside the locker instead.
Drag Tech: Allows the Nemesis to drag his tentacles hitbox with him while moving.
Urobend: As Wesker, dash while looking in a different direction than youre going and then colliding with a Survivor will cause you to go into the direction your looking instead of forward.
Un named Tech: Looking up or down has a variety of different benefits for certain killers. Most notable examples being Freddy who can place Snares through walls thanks to this or Bubba who can hug some surfaces much tighter.
And finally the most loved tech of all which is still possible in certain places... Skybilly: Allows the Hillbilly to reach new heights when colliding and dropping with some obstacles at a certain angle.
Most of those bugs could be fixed if they cared to, and I'd argue most of those should be.
Trap - I don't recall this, so it likely was before my time starting the game. If it was reintroduced it sounds like it is an intended mechanic now.
Crouch - Bugged hitboxes are bugged, I coulda toldja that if you ever played against a laggy Huntress hitting through walls/around corners. Make the hitbox more vertical up and down and it fixes the problem.
Window - I thought this only worked with Clairvoyance because it removes collision. Again, fix bad hitboxes, including collision walking hitboxes.
CJ - Unintended consequence of the bad design of overmapping keys (AKA the Mass Effect Spacebar does everything). Allowing for each separate action to be bound to different buttons/keys would fix this.
Vault - This is fair counterplay of mechanics, and as long as you aren't lagging out of your mind you can still interrupt the vaults with the pallet kick. It basically is a ping check of who is less laggy wins.
Stagger - Definitely should be fixed, or arguably baked into Balanced Landing regardless of exhaustion state, since it is lacking in comparison to all other Exhaustion perks.
Phase - Again fix the non-collision.
Input Buffer Doctor - Also known as lag. They 'fix' and break lag every patch with different parts. Pallets used to be bugged and always get hit through the stun, then they made pallet validation and it worked for like 1 patch. Now if you 'perfect' time it, you can hit through the validation, but the 'perfect' timing is far too lax imo.
Curving - This is just understanding current hitboxes. Arguably all hitboxes should match their visual, but then you get Bubba Tantruming on twigs in Eyrie. Mixed bag, but I would liken this to map knowledge and say its fine overall. If they made less garbage twig clutter they should fix map object hitboxes, but leaving them partially broken may be a necessary evil if maps are going to remain to be poorly designed.
Flick - This is definitely bad, as the power's lethality is balanced around the limitations, such as Oni can only hit in the frontal 180 degrees during his dash. I'd be fine if they were made less lethal but all ranges allowed, such as Oni doing 1 injury state with a backwards rush swing, and Pyramid Head Deep Wounding injured Survs, and downing Deep Wounded Survs. It carries the risk proportional to the reward if adjusted in such a manner. Trickster doesn't just injure people with 1 knife, so why would a backwards swing Oni deserve an instadown? Risk should match reward.
FL cancel - This is more like a combination of functioning as intended mechanics, that can be used for unintended consequences, like pallet vault spamming and CJ. This could be 'fixed' by not booting out of power when blinded, but I think both sides get something out of it in a fair manner in different scenarios.
Locker Bend - I haven't seen this but I would want it fixed, along with more lockers on maps in general. They legit seem to forget about Huntress/Dredge/Trickster with Toba Landing/Borgo, and every new map. Heck, even his own map has a distinct lack of lockers.
Nemmy Drag - This is a hyperspecific understanding of the programming in order to use it in a different manner. Arguably the tentacle could have been programmed to hit all 'lines' at once, but since they go sequentially, it appears to be intended. I'm fine with it either way, because it could be the intended design as it was intentionally programmed that way.
Urobend - I both like and dislike this. Wesker has sketch hitboxes all over the place. Sometimes you get slammed on an invisible wall, sometimes you throw them into a wall and they remain uninjured. This can help make it more consistent, but can also scam false hits that would have been throws into the open instead. If they plan on locking the camera mid dash to force it to work as intended, I would hope they also fix the uninjured wall throw problem as well. Sadly higher skill Weskers can abuse this to always get an undeserved scam hit, so I'm leaning more towards fixing it than leaving it in.
Skybilly - This one is a crime against humanity. Every other bug has the potential to fit the in-game description for 'competitive advantage'. This is legit the only bug that has no such potential for 'competitive advantage', yet they 'fix' it?!?! That just makes me think some devs are allergic to fun. Especially every dev that adds invisible walls on 2nd stories. If I saw as Billy/Bubba, Rush as Blight, Shred as Demo, etc. (other than Wesker, he SHOULD stop at heights as designed) I shouldn't bump on invisible walls. If you put a legit bird cage around the Garden of Joy's 2nd story I won't complain, but hitting the open air shouldn't be a thing.
360 - I'm surprised you didn't mention this one. This (along with corner wall hits) is a bug in regards to how 'aim-dressing' or autoaim works. If there was simply a menu option to turn off autoaim (as it arguably still helps new players more than it hurts), it would pretty much be fixed, and I wouldn't get scammed swinging around corners either.
I usually hate bugs that give an advantage, especially on the stronger Killers like Blight and Wesker, but I'm more lax if say the Wesker vault grab bug (teleporting Survivors to the wrong side) happened with Doctor shocks instead. He is weak enough that such a bug might actually make him 'playable'. Even then, I think it would be better if they gave him mechanics that are functional from the onset.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3483613#Comment_3483613
Oh no, insta-down killers don't mind MFT, so new discovery...
Stealth works too, who would have thought, because that's basekit for every killer, I nearly forgot... oh wait
Ok lemme sell my Snake Oil. Trail of Torment (even unbuffed from the PTB proposal) is vastly underrated and gives nearly everyone the chance to be a stealth Killer. Also most non-stealth Killers lack the larger audio cues to tell when they sneak up (barring Oni/Nemmy and the like), so it arguably makes it an even more powerful stealth than actual stealth Killers. It does help to play stealth Killers often enough to know how to approach, but still isn't fully needed.
@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3483662#Comment_3483662
Statistics are basically useless for this. Do you want to tell me your consider Nurse weakest killer and Pig strongest killer in dbd?
If no, then you can't use it for perk either. You don't get to cherry pick.
You think escape rate matters for perk and should decide balancing? Well guess what, old Object of obession had low escape rate, while it was one of most annoying and best perks survivors (SWF) could use.
Oppresive perk for part of player base is still an issue. That's exactly same for killer perk that was oppresive against soloQ and not against SWF. Eruption was not an issue for SWF at all. It was possible to beat it. But it was hell for soloQ. That's why it was an issue. Exact same logic applies for MFT.
Ok you gotta be delusional if you think Eruption wasn't a problem for SWF as well. A normal case would be like: "Ok let go, oh wait Plague didn't swing, ok I'm taking a pallet 50/50, ok Mikaela failed a letgo skillcheck, WAIT #########, that was some lag, I was around the corner, sorry all 3 of you are hit by Eruption now." Eruption was oppressive for every Survivor, not only against Survivors who don't bring a general perk (the equivalent being Fearmonger for MfT), and even then I don't consider MfT oppressive (as a Sprint Burst or Lithe is far more useful in more cases against Survivors with skill, Survivors without skill as established prior don't matter when they use MfT).
Low Skill Huntresses and Deathslingers have a complaint, but once they start learning and taking the risky top shots over loops they start to win. Doc and Knight are legit hard countered, but nothing of value is lost in the case of Knight being countered. Doc is just outdated and in need of some QoL love. I do like that he had some tomes to get more eyes on him, and hope it reveals his flaws and gets helped out.
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I've always felt the pre Mikaela hatch was the best spot for it. It basically served as a basekit counter to intentionally tunneling 1 person out, as well as intentional 3 genning. Also with MMR it still counts as a Killer victory, (Kill + 3 hatches is a win + 3 ties) albeit an anticlimactic one. It only opened for 10s IIRC so you had to gather people to quickly escape, no extended gloating like exit gate teabags. It just seems like a throwing the baby out with the bathwater scenario overall.
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@LapisInfernalis said:
Dear People of The Fog,
there have been threads plopping up here that Wesker needs a nerf because he is played much and therefore must be OP, as this seems to be the reasoning for survivor perks getting nerfed. I am writing this to collect what complaints were mentioned and what I think of them to provide a more grounded view. I dare say I am pretty experienced with over 6k hrs. I might not be the best out there by far, but I have a good understanding of the game. Most of my hrs are from the Survivor side, but when I play killer I usually play Wesker. I do not belong to the Wesker Gods out there yet, but I know of all the funny stuff you can do with him and I am also able to perform all of them (although not all consistently yet).
Now to the main reason I write this post.
- "Wesker is played often, therefore he is OP and needs a nerf."
Not all Killers, perks or addons are OP, just because they are used often. Best example: Engravings on Billy. Wesker is FUN to play as he has an interesting power with high skill-ceiling that is satisfying to use (throwing or smacking survivors against objects is cool) but still leaves Survivors with enough coulterplay so that the player comes out top who was better, which is good design. His base-kit is strong enough not to be addon reliant, and his addons are all quite balanced. None of them is per se OP.
Also Wesker was the last Killer who had interesting gameplay to offer as Knight and Skullmerchant are the best at 3-genning, which is widely considered very boring. I can't tell much for the Singularity as I haven't really played that Killer since release. The gameplay just seems so clunky to me. And facing the Singularity is just nothing special. Therefore it is understandable that some players do not play those characters, but the last one who was actually proviging interesting gameplay. And that is Wesker.
Variety in matches is nice but should be NEVER a reason to get it nerfed. Back in late 2018/early 2019 95% of your matches on red ranks was Nurse, Billy and Spirit with the occasional Huntress in there. The other 5% were either very skilled with that killer and very terrifying for that reason (best exaples: Trapper and Doc) or just doing a daily.
The difference here is that both Spirit and Nurse were OP back then. Nurse had no cooldown, Omega Blink was a thing and she could have 5 blinks with little drawback. Spirit had no phase sound if you were in her TR, making chases against her extremly frustrating as you were basically tossing a coin every time if you would live or not. Her addons were on the same level as Blight's right now. Billy had one broken combo (Insta saw, or charge speed with engraving) but got gutted with the rework. Somehthing that I don't understand to this day. He was also a fun killer to play and to play against, strong but still balanced with high skill ceiling.
Look at him now....
Neither Wesker nor Blight are OP. Even Nurse is at a good spot right now I think. Basekit blight is completely fine. He just needs some addons getting looked at (Alc Ring, C33, Adre Vial and maybe speed).
No need to repeat the Billy tragedy.
- "All Weskers I face are just tunneling. It's so ez to tunnel with him and therefore he must be nerfed."
Tunneling is not a specific problem with Wesker. In fact there are other killers who can easily tunnel via their basekit (Pyramid Head), just because they are strong (Nurse, Blight, Spirit, Huntress) or can ignore Endurance with their power (Deathslinger) or via add-ons (Pinhead, Pig). People just think Wesker players tunnel the most as he is one of the most seen killers in some MMR regions. Therefore the chances are higher for a player they meet to tunnel than if they face a PyH once in 30 matches. Then there is also the "definition" problem of tunneling. Some say "tunneling" for anything while some say "tunneling" if the killer stops what he's doing just to get you out of the match.
Nonetheless there IS a way in which Wesker can tunnel well if he choses to. That often includes the usage of the Video Conference Device, which reduces the passive infection time by 30%. This causes unhooked survivors who have their infection set to 50/100 charges to get the infection debuff after just 40s (instead of 60s) which is not much in both cases. This is the ONLY part of his kit that might need some adjustment, although I would favour a global anti-tunneling mechanic over nerfing killers.
This adjustment could be:
- Removing infection on hook. This is very problematic as it almost completely removes information and slowdown from his kit as you would rarly need to spray yourslf then in the first place. This would be similar to wake up from Freddy's Dream without having the automatic timer afterwards.
- Pausing the passive infection until you do a Conspicous Action. That is a double edged sword as Survivors could use it to bodyblock for others without getting punished for it.
- Setting the infection meter upon getting hooked to 1/100 charges. This way the timer is about 120s (or 80s with VCD) until it is full. Common anti tunnel perks are active for 60 or 80s after getting unhooked so I used this as a guideline. If Wesker tunnels you off the hook for 80/120s after getting unhooked, there will be 2 gens finished after this is over. This also makes it not so punishing if you get hit with a dash during the BT effect and increasing your infection like it would be with it being set to 50%.
- "HIs hitbox is so bad"
Hitboxes are just a rough approximation of your character. It is actually just a cylinder for killer and survivor. There are many videos out there on YT explaining this.
- "He grabs you through windows and pallets"
That was a bug that existed for the last 6 months and is fixed with the next mid-chapter. He was always only supposed to just injure and infect you when you are mid-vault.
- "All his techs are exploits."
Now I opened Pandora's Box.... but all techs are not exploits until the devs say otherwise. Blight Hug-Tech is considered a bug, but we still don't know if they decided it to be a feature or if they are still trying to fix it. They never said anything about Wesker's fun stuff so the Devs seem to be fine with it for now.
BTW: You can still still dodge rebounds if you know where he will do it, and even Hug-Techs can be dodged. Most people just don't know the signs of Wesker doing this.
Constructive thoughts are welcome.
Stay safe in the Fog.
I agree that popularity nerfs (as seen in perks in 6.1.0) are bad. Fixing problems such as his turbo-tunnel potential (which you partially address) is good. I would also extend the Killer Instict on Spray to not work on Survivors who haven't done a CA after hook yet. That way you can't turbo tunnel the Surv who just got off hook and sprayed to avoid an untimely death, instead putting the target back on them.
Blight bug tech is a known bug claimed to be seeking a fix, and when I asked a while ago the Dev response was that using known bugs is NOT bannable. That was also when you could infinite stack Flashbangs, and I asked in reference to bug abuses on both sides. Now technically this isn't the most helpful, because the in-game the report literally has one of the options be "EXPLOITS - Report this player for exploiting bugs (emphasis mine), errors in design, or cheats to obtain a competitive advantage (emphasis again mine)." That just probably needs an updated description to match the one on the forums currently, as well as the Griefing category to include Intentionally ruin gameplay experience or some such. Technically with this (misleading) definition bug tech and Wesker bugs are bannable with this definition, but Sky Billy isn't, yet they instantly fix Sky Billy for no justifiable reason unless they hate fun. Overall the exploits aren't the intended strength of the Killer, and nerfing the Killer in general to counter balance with NOT fixing the bugs would be fair, if an annoying way to punish variety Killers who don't learn all the exploits. Personally I'd prefer the bugs be fixed, because he is very fun and fair to play as and against without bugs (barring the turbo-tunnel).
I partially agree with your analysis of 'all Weskers camp and tunnel'. I do think at least in some part the stronger Killers do draw in the sweatier players though. That increases the odds of them camping and tunneling to sweat. It also is negativity bias, where like MfT, people remember all their losses against MfT/SweatWeskers more, but not their victories against MfT and non-sweat Weskers.
Blight not OP - Yeah, well, that just like, your opinion man. Jokes aside I think any Killer that I personally can turn off my brain and win (3k+) with meme/no perks consistently (66%+) is OP. Currently that is Blight/Nurse (and Spirit before my hearing damage got too bad, that just means I still think Spirit is OP, only my failing body makes me unable to personally capitalize on her potential.). I do think Oni and Wesker are also both contenders if I played them more to master them to the point of muscle memory. Wesker has (almost too much) basekit slowdown, and Oni has (almost too much) lethality and basekit intel in the form of the blood orbs. Artist is just more annoying to deal with, because I don't feel as though you get enough distance when you outplay her, but I wouldn't say she is OP by my definition (perks amp her potential by a greater degree than many of the other Killers I talked about).
Edit: Fixed spelling
Also reading a couple other responses I saw something about MMR allegedly being worse for lower tiers. IIRC the devs said MMR helps the larger percentage of the population (the lower MMR), while not signifcantly changing the 'top-MMR' experience in comparison to Red Ranks of old.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3483163#Comment_3483163
Yeah that wasen't my experience at all
I could make tunneling for a lot of killers a huge timewaster that more then made up me not being on gens all the time. Not never mind you, only when it was needed.
I ran it with unbreakable and could bodyblock 3 times for a survivor and just pick myself up if the killer still wanted the one survivor dead. With how soloq is sometimes i saved way more time delaying the tunneled persons death then i would have sitting on gens. I have body blocked a hook for 3 hits causing the person to get off and then picking myself up when the killer still went after them.
The only times that MoM failed me was against killers that don't care about bodyblocks like nurse of bubba but against them the current version of MoM is even worse. I have been able to get endurance MoM to trigger against a nurse. Current MoM never.
I am 100% convinced endurance MoM is a better perk in pretty much every aspect compared to current MoM and it was reverted way too quickly before the community could actually play around with it.
It wouldn't piss me off as much if people actually used the trash tier they reverted it back too but nobody does. They picked up a perk from the thrash, tried to make something out of it and this community was like "no no put that back in the trash, i like it there"
I can understand the case for that version, but I'd rather them add a new perk to fill that role.
Also I was reading a couple other comments on how they nerfed CoH (and Self-Care) into 'garbage' tier, I'd say allowing CoH Self-Care at 25-35%, and the actual Perk Self-Care at maybe 45%, would help make both of those perks still usable, without making CoH overbearing. The teammate will see the HUD of you healing, know how much time you are wasting to Self-Care, and go to save you more time to heal you instead since they can now see your aura and just might not have been looking in that direction before. I do think CoH in combination with an aggressively placed Shadow Step is powerful and annoying enough to require a response by the Killer. Also I'm almost at the point of thinking it'd be fine for actual Self-Care to be back at 50%, but I also don't know if after nerfing Medkits it would just open up everyone bringing it as a perk-tax almost.
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Fearmonger is such an easy counter to MfT I am so confused by how often people are complaining about it. Fearmonger is a general perk too, so it isn't like Pain Res gated behind Artist, or Deadlock behind Pinhead.
Doc is legit the only time I've felt my skill didn't matter against MfT, as his slowdown is so massive from being so outdated. Knight's guards are countered also by MfT, but nothing of value is lost there. Heck, Knight is so unenjoyable for both sides I haven't even gotten his achievement yet. Deathslinger and Huntress are just casual vs top shot tests. If you can take the top shots over loops then you win against MfT, but if you are a casual Deathslinger or Huntress player you can't make those shots.
Otherwise I usually don't care about MfT because a good Sprint Burst or Lithe would have gained most Survivors far more value. MfT is just the autopilot equivalent to get average value without effort compared to great value with skill on the actual exhaustion perks.
I do think complaining about Hope+MfT is a joke, as they handicapped themselves a full perk slot and still reached endgame. That is on the Killer to win early enough to deny that. If you needed to win during endgame, you likely only won because they gave you extra kills for free trying needless saves. Also most people pass up on Adrenaline in order to use their Hope+MfT, which I feel is much more enjoyable to deal with than multiple Adrenalines popping.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3483118#Comment_3483118
And this right here was the problem. People just became immune to damage after taking a hit for someone who is most likely being tunneled and what do they do?
They run the hell away!!
That's not the perk being bad, that's the people using it being stupid
MoM now requires you to take a hit, heal up, take another hit, heal up again and then take another before it even does anything. That's the most stacked medkit and 48 seconds if you don't want to rely on your team
With endurance MoM you needed 1 protectin hit and a heal and you were ready to block for a tunneled person twice in a row. That's half the amount of time wasted.
The aura read and deactivating on actions was completely irrelivant if you did what the perk was suppose to do and protect your teammates.
It was a pretty effective anti tunnel tool. All it took was to not be selfish while playing the team role. And dbd survivors are on avarage so bad they couldn't get their head around that
The problem with the concept is you would serve your tunneled teammate far more by sitting on gens than running cross-map to soak the first hit, healing up, then taking 2 in a row. To be fair this version could be the 'Corrective Action' of chase perks, but both would serve to be equally bad, instead of allowing for MoM to serve its current niche. At least with current MoM I can take a prot hit and Sabo the hook the Killer is going towards, and if they drop my teammate then they are safe (from hook) and I drew aggro effectively. That version disabled on Sabo, so you couldn't be useful even when trying.
The proposed MoM had the same problem as Pyramid Head barb-wire, in that your opposition is almost entirely in control of whether you got to use it. Some people crouch mid-chase to deny Pyramid Head's power, preferring to get downed instead of giving a free cage. The same problem existed with the proposed MoM, as very few spots the Survivor could truly force the Killer to hit them instead, such as blocking shack doors, or under hook when a Surv is carried.
On paper I did like the proposed change, then I tried to make use of it and the PTB Killer essentially laughed in my face and made me regret my decisions, and PTB matchmaking would have improved my chances compared to live.
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For Killer buffs some basic ideas I've posted in the past are things like basekit NOED as long as no one is dead (the perk can still spawn it with kills though), a Devour Hope styled speed boost post hook that is canceled on chase or special ability to help with map mobility on M1 killers, among other buffs to 'fair' spread the pressure styled gameplay. Arguably the pallet break from the anniversary event might be fine if they have to seek out their own Purple Glyph (sludge trail with aura reveal after a hook) to get only 1 charge (with a cooldown after using it before the Glyph respawns).
I like the warding glyph idea, and to add on to it I'd say maybe be able to visibly give the hooked Survivor your Glyph (maybe hitting a different button during unhook that can be cancelled for Glyph Reassurance, or completed for Glyph DS). That way the Killer can know they will soak a DS if they tunnel, but you gave away yours to your teammate and you could be slugged for pressure or just hooked normally. I would also say if you are slugged, you should be able to interact with the Glyphs, just so you can crawl to both the Glyph and the gen to pick yourself up if you were given that much free time on the ground. Also maybe have the Warding Glyphs function as White Glyphs, to both reuse the mechanic, and allow for Territorial Imperative to not be strictly a meme perk.
A similar sidequest idea I've liked was Green Glyphs found in tomes (available to both sides). They give an increased (doubling?) BP amount per Green gathered, but you have to complete some gens as Surv or hooks as Killer to spawn them, and they get revealed during endgame collapse, (although I'd reveal them during endgame to encourage sticking around for greed giving extra chances at Killer/Survivor interaction, while either side can still open the gate to start the timer). This also helps test bugged totem spots, as you can report Green Glyphs as untouchable when you don't always check totem spots in normal matches.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
I'm still angry about the MoM revert.
It changed from a meme perk that you have to throw the match for into something you could actually use and for some reason people really hated the idea of it being usable.
Why the hell would you revert back to the state where nobody used it? Cause the community can't judge a perk to save their life?
That small period of endurance MoM was the best version of MoM that didn't break the game
Sorry but that MoM version was unplayably bad. Yeah you could get MoM in 2 stacks instead of 3, but it told the Killer MoM was ready instead of after it was used. They could aura read you when it was prepped. Since it gave endurance, if you touched a gen/totem/provided any value in the game, you lost it and had to regain the 2 stacks. It told the Killer 'don't hit me, I'm worthless to my team'. That was after you had to throw by giving the Killer 2 free protection hits. At least with throwing to give 3 free hits you get an extra damage state that can stack with other forms of Endurance, and still do gens or unhook and heal allies. To be fair this variant was a decent hard-counter to drain STBFL stacks, but most STBFL users are like Demo who can damage you with their power instead.
@lav3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3482937#Comment_3482937
Yeah, I'd take changing many perks so some could be a choice for players rather than making another 2nd chance meta.
Grim Embrace would be really decent if it activates on 3rd token I think.
The best changes I can think for Grim Embrace is allowing it to activate multiple times as long as no one is dead (promoting hooking each Survivor, then each Survivor again), and revealing all players if the Obsession is the final stack, instead of revealing the hooked Obsession. Alternatively applying Incapacitated to all Survivors if the Obsession is the final stack. This way Survivors can't just heal or bless/cleanse totems instead of doing gens, and Incap doesn't prevent unhooks, so it wouldn't kill people on hook.
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The problem is that there are too many 'blind the Killer' tomes, and blinding during the pallet break is the easiest and best way to get these done more often than not. Most Killers with brains are effectively immune to blinds, because they face walls and whatnot, so this at least is a chance to get a blind against a Killer with a functional frontal lobe.
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@Orthane said:
No Mither
Sounds made by grunts of pain are reduced by 100% (Was 75%)
Seriously why is this not how it is already? It's a challenge perk you're basically exposed the entire game the least it can do is hide you better.
Call of Brine
Generators regress at 135% normal regression speed (Was 125%)
Made for This
Healing Speed while injured increased by 25%
When you finish healing another Survivor gain the Endurance Status effect for 12 seconds (Works while exhausted, was 10 seconds)
remove the movement speed effect entirely.
Prove Thyself
Survivors within 8 meters have their repair speed increased by 10% (Was 15%)
Deadlock
When a generator is completed block the generator with the most progress for 15 seconds (Was 30)
Add "the Generator then begins to regress at 85% the normal speed"
Sprint Burst/Lithe need a 10 second longer Exhaustion CD
Adrenaline
No longer picks you up if downed
No One Escapes Death
Remove the movespeed increase
I know it's not even that strong honestly but it's just unfun and that is enough to warrant a nerf in my eyes.
Bloodhound
Injured Survivors that leave your Terror Radius have their aura shown to you for 5 seconds. This effect has a 30 second cooldown.
Situational Awareness
Remove the aura reading when a survivor is downed and replace it with "You see the aura of all other Survivors while repairing a Generator, this effect lingers for 6 seconds after you are no longer repairing a generator"
Visionary
Remove the "Whenever a generator is completed Visionary is disabled for 16 seconds"
Calm Spirit
You can cleanse and bless totems silently but at 15% reduced speed (Was 30%)
Plunderer's Instinct
Add "You open chests 20% faster"
No One Left Behind
Add "Your movement speed is increased by 5% for 7 seconds when you unhook a Survivor" this obviously only works when the exit gates are powered just like the rest of the perk
Spies From the Shadows
Remove the Cooldown
Hangman's Trick
See the aura of any survivor within 8 meters of a hook (was 6 meters)
In my eyes, this would help make a lot of perks more interesting and worth taking. More importantly it might help a bit with Survivor perk variety, which right now is severely lacking. Every single game is the same handful of perks every time and it's seriously starting to get tiring.
No Mither - I would take this a step further and have you healthy, but while healthy you are exposed. This would also help prevent you being a liability for your teammates against Oni. It also doesn't just throw the game for your teammates if you go against Blight/Nurse. To show it was a No Mither Exposed down, you could still be broken while in the Dying state.
Call of Brine - As long as SM can 3 gen, neither CoB nor OC should return to their former 'glory'. I do think original 200% CoB was fine, it is just the abuse cases like 3 genning that makes it overbearing.
MfT - Honestly going the opposite way with this one. The speed should be the only facet of this perk. Fearmonger and Blood Echo counter this effectively enough already. I would even put all of the Endurance effects onto Buckle Up (on top of the PTB proposed change). The idea you would be stronger when helping downed allies fits thematically with that perk so much better.
Prove Thyself - Honestly this perk shouldn't be changed, and the PTB changes shouldn't go live. It saves 7s per duo'd gen, at the cost of grouping people up. This is just a Killer perk in disguise, similar to Self-Care. The only good facet (the increased BP for co-op actions) is also being needlessly removed, so it will be even harder to reach BP caps.
Deadlock - I think the current version, if a bit too camper happy, is good. Waiting 15s isn't enough to discourage players enough to find another gen, so you won't even get value of it regressing.
Exhaustion up to 50s - Ehh 40s is fine. The best use is forcing a Sprint Burst away from a solid target, then faking leaving so they waste it, then continuing the chase. That means you get value then and there. Adding more time onto the CD won't do anything more than being annoying, not useful.
Adrenaline - Disagree, as annoying as it is to see 3-4 Adrenaline's pop, this doesn't punish the main pain point of it, and Terminus is such a solid counter for it. The only time this proposed change is really affecting anything is slugging for the 4k, losing the person, then they stand when you kick hatch. If you had to slug them long enough to lose them, they deserve an extra chance to get out of the gates.
Noed - I would be crazy enough to suggest basekitting it, but only if no one is dead yet, and making it spawn the furthest totem away from the Killer in the basekit version. Maybe the perk would give it a basekit respawn if no one is dead, and allow it to still spawn if someone is dead. I personally like comeback mechanics, and this would also need a Survivor comeback mechanic as well.
Bloodhound - Very neat and nice change. My idea was kinda boring in comparison (show auras while people are standing in blood and not being healed, such as crouching in corners, doing gens while injured.)
Situational Awareness - Interesting change, but kinda hard-countered by Fearmonger (by the time the 1s remains they barely fade in before disappearing). I don't exactly have a problem with perks hard-countering one another, just something to note.
Visionary - Yeah that's fair, especially with current Deja Vu being a general perk and being near exclusively better.
Calm Spirit - How about hard removing the slowdown that has no right to nerf a perk that was mediocre at best. I would even silence all forms of Killer interactions (silent puking with Plague/Nemesis infections, silent crows when swarmed by Artist, etc.).
Plunderer's - Yeah seems not half bad.
Spies - Maybe a CD of 1s, knowing BHVR level bugs and programming, if there was no CD, the same crow would spam you like a cheater spamming screams.
Hangman's - I would even say once someone is 'tagged' by going near hook, their aura remains until 2/3s after you are no longer carrying a Survivor. The problem with size increases, is I'm not sure what the average hook to gen distance in most jungle gyms is, and if we would want to buff it to that point, or if it would be taking over BBQ's purpose.
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@lav3 said:
In 6.1.0, changed perks were :
- Survivor meta - DH, DS, Iron Will, Spine Chill, Self-Care, Borrowed Time
- Killer meta - Corrupt Intervention, BBQ&C, H:Ruin, Pop, Tinkerer, H:Noed, SH:Pain Res
- Survivor - Botany Knowledge, Calm Spirit, Dark Sense, Deja Vu, Distortion, Hope, Lightweight, Lucky Break, No One Left Behind, Off the Record, Overzealous, Pharmacy, Saboteur, Sole Survivor, Tenacity, WGLF
- Killer - Coulrophobia, Dark Devotion, Eruption, Jolt, Knock Out, Lethal Pursuer, Monstrous Shrine, Overcharge, SH:Gift of Pain, Thanatophobia
About survivor perks, I think DS, Self-Care were hard nerfed.
DS should have 5 seconds of stun duration limited to Obsession.
Self-Care should revert to 50% healing speed but make the perk like current DH.
You can only use SC after unhooking yourself, getting unhooked from teammates.
And after going to into healthy state, the perk deactivates.
Not fond of Botany Knowledge. Calm Spirit, Pharmacy change was a terrible idea.
I'd remove Healing item efficiency penalty and revert old 33% healing item efficiency.
And make 50% healing speed only affect when healing teammates.
Calm Spirit didn't need speed penalty at all and Pharmacy having the condition to be injured is just wrong.
In addition, I hope Pharmacy gives special medkit that is much better than others because medkit rarity doesn't mean that much now.
Ruin nerf was very atrocious.
The perk deactivating after someone dies is enough. I think Ruin should have 150% regression speed in tier 3.
Eruption buff was terrible which enabled 3 gen defence. (Good riddance it lost incapacitated effect later.)
Monstrous Shrine became Scourge Hook and still doesn't have much use.
(I thought there would be an archive challenge like "Hook survivor x times on Scourge Hook" but didn't appear)
Thana was unnecessarily buffed and quickly nerfed to the ground.
2/4/6/20%? I really think Thana should have original value like 6/9/12/15%.
And extra BP gain from BBQ and WGLF were removed.
Very controversial but I hope BBQ/WGLF's BP bonus should have stayed.
BP incentive isn't always given to the role you want to play.
Patch 6.2.0 to 6.5.0 didn't include many perk changes.
There actually were MoM and Blast Mine changes which were unjustified and unneeded.
Glad MoM was reverted and Blast Mine had its required generator progress reduced eventually.
Patch 6.6.0 had Any Means Necessary and Eruption changes.
Any Means no longer had cooldown and I think it was a okay change.
Because of cooldown, you don't notice which pallet was dropped and unbroken sometimes.
Eruption was finally changed after 7~8 months it got buffed.
No longer incapacitate affected survivors and changed the effect to aura reveal.
(The nerf was more extreme in PTB because it had 10% "current" progress, not "total" progress.
At least in live version, it had 10% total losing progress.)
Now it is in weird position but I won't deny this perk solely made solo survivor experience into misery.
Patch 6.7.0 included another meta perk changes.
- Survivor meta - B:Circle of Healing, DH
- Killer meta - SH:Pain Res, Call of Brine, Overchage
- Others - Overzealous, Gearhead
Whether how you think of DH, I think it's fine.
Both Pain Res and CoH became unstable perk.
Might lose Pain Res token for nothing when gen pops before hooking.
Solo survivors lost benefit with CoH and uncommunication will cause no value using it.
Even if they were nerfed and became more complex, I am fine with it and try other perks.
But Call of Brine was massively nerfed. Surprised it didn't get number changes while Pain Res/CoH received.
It should be reworked or retouch the number.
Recent 7.0.0 had Flashbang, Deja Vu, Pop Goest the Weasel buff.
Flashbang no longer requires empty handed, good.
Pop is probably one of the best designed killer perks, which rewards hooking. Nice buff when most regression perks were nerfed.
Deja Vu buff feels unnecessary. I don't think indefinite repair bonus should stay.
Once close generators problems are fixed, I think it should have former effect.
To summarize, the perks I think it should be retouched are :
Survivor - Self-Care, Descive Strike, Botany Knowledge, Calm Spirit, Pharmacy, WGLF, Deja Vu
Killer - BBQ, H:Ruin, SH:Monstrous Shrine, Thanatophobia, Call of Brine
The only perk I don't think it needs buff is Deja Vu.
Others should have some kind of buff, rework or reversal.
Personally hope Borrowed Time might have some changes (because passive Endurance negates BT) too.
The perk nerfs for both sides were bad, unnecessary, and (in part) gave rise to the problems we dealt with and still are facing. If anything, the 6.1.0 nerfs should have only been single nerfs, not double. (DS 5s, Pop Current, Ruin disable on death, Iron Will 100% non-exhausted, etc.) The largest gameplay problems of camping/tunneling were absurdly buffed, instead of only buffing normal gameplay.
Earned Regression that was fair? Naw, lets buff unearned regression and release multiple 3 gen Killers. Buff Thana when the numbers were fine? Now too many people are running it so it gets nerfed into oblivion so only Legion and Plague can use it. It was fine at 5% per Surv, and they should have only reverted the needless buffs, or have it apply 2/4/6/8 for 2/6/12/20 total instead. 2/4/6/20 total is the worst option imaginable.
Camping and Tunneling? Lets make all forms of anti-tunnel Endurance not work when Deep Wounded, then put all forms of anti-tunnel onto Endurance that gets the most value when you hit them immediately off hook from a proxy-camp. That was a severe overreaction to meme videos getting 5 Endurance procs that absolutely couldn't happen in real matches.
Self-care was fair to nerf, especially given nerfed medkits now as well, but they didn't need to make Self-Care a full on Killer perk and all medkits the exact same version (making Brown Medkit the best and only Medkit in most matches). I think the Green Medkit should still be better at self-healing (removing the speed penalty), and Purple still have more charges (at 32 and removing the self-charge inefficiency, but keeping the self-speed penalty). Heck, they even nerfed Pharmacy to be worse than Self-Care with the Medkit changes, it should at least remove the self-healing speed-inefficiency (for Pharmacy) now. On the topic of nerfs I can't believe they had the gall to nerf Calm Spirit and call it a buff. A real buff to Calm Spirit would be silencing all killer unique sounds, like the sound of Plague infected puking, or Artist crows swarming you, or Wesker Ouroborous on you.
Dead Hard I was perfectly fine with the original rework as Killer, although it was too short and laggy for me as Survivor, but I'd argue they went too far with it's current state. I'd even make the argument it should be 1s of Special Attack Endurance that can also be used when healthy. That would help with both lag, and against the Killers who need DH to make them tolerable (Nurse/Blight), while not impacting M1 Killers.
CoH was probably the only good perk nerf in the list. It was overbearing, annoying, and impossible to deal with (in a reasonable timeframe) on 2nd story placements like on Ironworks.
I was one of the few people to occasionally run OG Eruption, and it was fair with a short Incap timer (16s?), fair Regression (since it was I think 6% per gen kicked) and still required a down. I think its current form is slightly better overall, especially with current Pop and Nowhere to Hide, but the middle form of 25s unreactable incap was an abomination that never should have made it to live.
I am also one of the Psychos that still believe Pain Res is currently buffed. It gives more Regression until 7 old Pain Res hooks, and doesn't force you to go out of the way for PR hooks once you've gotten the token, saving heaps of time. At 6 hooks you have either 2 people dead (3/3/0/0) so you don't need regression because it is a 2v1. Alternatively you have 1 person dead, and any combo of hooks on the rest, so it essentially is a won match (due to being a 3v1) unless you have half a gen remaining. Finally the only other possibility is 2 people death hook and 2 people with 1 hook, so by hooking one of the death hook Survs you get the 3v1 which is a won match except against the half gen remaining mentioned above. If they finished the gens, you had MORE regression and couldn't keep up, so it was a lost match regardless. The only argument I've heard that has merit, was old PR gave you more failed let-go skill checks, but the stats only bumped regression to 26.7% and 16.7% or something like that, which didn't change the breakeven points from 6/7 for new/old. Technically it changes the regression to 35%/25% new/old only like 7% or 17% of the time or something like that, so it was gambling anyways.
The Singularity introduced alternate item slot is interesting, but I haven't had time to truly know whether I like it or not. Overall I think its better, but sometimes you end up carrying the Spray/Vaccine when you want to use the Medkit/Toolbox/Flashlight. You can still drop some temporary items, but with Singularity's it deletes the item.
Deja Vu they stated was a 'temp' buff until they fix intentionally 3 genning from the onset. Technically this also is in line with their original DS claims of it being reduced to its current unplayably bad 3s stun. I think DS needs its 5s stun back or some other stronger anti-tunnel countermeasures, but Deja Vu is just a strange buff that will likely cause more problems that it is seeking to solve. If anything I think Deja Vu should give 1% boost every minute (or sooner) that the current 3 closest gens is the same 3 gen. That way when you get those degen 3gen Killers it can reach 30% gen haste reasonably, but in most normal matches it won't even reach 5%. I think a reasonable 3gen fix is allowing the first gen completed to 'uncomplete' itself at 2 gens remaining, but it progresses at 25% normal speed (or 360 Survivor seconds instead of 90). When at 1 gen remaining the second gen completed 'uncompletes' itself allowing a repeat at 25%, and the first gen (if not completed twice) is boosted to 50% speed (180 Survivor seconds). Killer regression still works at full value on these repeat gens, only Survivor speeds (for recompletes) is reduced. The reason for 2 levels is in case of the bad/bugged 4 gens on one side which can be seen rarely on H shaped maps with 2 1 4 gen placement instead of 3 1 3.
Overall the perk nerfs were near exclusively bad, unless nerfing what was needlessly buffed like the unearned regression. I would say about half or more of the perk buffs were good, and I already went over each of the major bad ones (Pharmacy/Calm Spirit).
Base mechanics overall I'd say were largely good. The 6.1.0 basekit Brutal/STBFL/BT were all nice additions, but Endurance shouldn't care about Deep Wound, especially anti-tunnel Endurance. That was the only basekit mechanic change that was strictly bad. I'd even make the argument basekit/perk BT should give permanent Endurance for the timer, but you lose collision during the Endurance timer so you can't bodyblock for a teammate. This would also help against the double tap tunnels like Huntress/Bubba/Blight/Nurse can do quickly and easily.
Also gen times being buffed to 90s, but hook timers being not adjusted too, was an absurd buff to camping that makes no sense even to this day. Everyone says the counter to facecamping Bubba is 'just do gens', but with Deadlock and the first down in under a minute results in a minimum 2k, most often 3k. An intentional camp from the onset should never result in more than 1k, and I would go to the extreme to say if someone stays on hook through first state, the second state should take 5 minutes instead of 1. If they are camped they will be the only one to die, and if you camp out only the second state (to punish Survivor greed) then you can leave to pressure the remaining 3.
I played the game on release for less than 2 hours, because I used the steam refund as it was unplayably bad imo (I worked a certain nightshift and with Killer as host, they had 200+ latency minimum, getting hits at windows and pallets they clearly missed, and Killer had to deal with the literal infinites.). Then I rejoined when a bunch of friends were playing semi-frequently shortly before or after Twins came out. (My steam achievements don't help because I think I played at a friend's house/console off and on with them before I re-bought it myself.) Overall I'd say the best the game has ever been was during the short timeframe before and after Mikaela's release while CoH was killswitched. Even then I think the version of hatch prior to Mikaela's patch was the best it was, as it allowed a '3 gen/intentional facecamp/hard tunnel kill' counter in its prior form. (That was the hatch spawned when the Gens remaining was equal or less than Survivors killed, and keys opened it for 10s IIRC.) So I had just shy of 1 year of mostly good changes, then nearly 2 years of mostly bad changes, with a decent enough recovery as of late.
Overall I think change for the sake of change is mostly bad, which was the theme of 6.1.0. Change for the sake of fixing bad things is mostly good, which was mostly the theme of 6.7.0. Even then, making all medkits samey is a boring change, but they were in desperate need of being nerfed.
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@Krazzik said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3482801#Comment_3482801
One of the issues with killer-bans is the snowball effect. If say 40% of players banned Nurse, then the people who -don't- ban Nurse are going to be playing against Nurse a lot more often, because all the Nurse players have a smaller pool of survivors they can end up with. This would cause a similar kind of burnout we're seeing with Wesker, and so more people would then decide to ban Nurse. Say 70% now ban Nurse, then the 30% who don't ban Nurse face -even more- Nurse and get even more burnout, and more then get sick of her and ban her. The players who -don't- ban certain killers will over time see more and more of that particular killer and thus are more likely to then ban her in turn, and over all this time, these killers get longer and longer and longer queue times.
As I mentioned before, BHVR value short queue times over everything else in the game, even basic matchmaking, so they would NEVER add a system that would give players longer queue times, it just doesn't make sense on their end, and so killer bans would never happen in any capacity.
Again, I understand that there are gonna be killers that people like more than others, but part of queueing up to play this game is that you are open to playing against anything. DCing because you don't like what you're against is a problem with -that- entitled player, and the only solution should be to punish that player. Heck the system ALREADY temporarily bans players who rage-quit, that's the game telling that player that what you're doing is bad and you shouldn't do that.
I'm not saying they shouldn't be trying to actually balance the game and fix frustrating things that are commonly hated, SM for example is a complete mess and NEEDS big changes. But an outright killer ban option would simply not work even if you could only ban a single killer, being able to ban multiple killers would ruin the game.
If a Killer is that annoying to go against that it causes burnout from repeated matches, I'd say that alone is a problem in need of addressing. This would reveal an existing problem, not make a new one.
Also BHVR doesn't value short queue timers over EVERYTHING, because when they did the test with far more lax (and even removed MMR), the match quality went down so bad the game was considered unplayable. The current 'top-MMR = the top 25% of the playerbase' is the current best balance of queue times and match quality. They care about the balance, not strictly queues.
Again not defending DCs, defending basic QoL like bans.
A killer ban (for Survs, and Map ban for Killers) most certainly would improve the QoL of the game, and the only argument I have heard with weight was around the number of bans. Since you think even 1 ban is too many, I haven't seen any statements to support that position beyond the equivalent of 'because I said so'. I think 1 per 5 (round down) is the perfect ratio, it allows for archetypes to be banned (stealth/ranged/only personal unfun matches), without banning too many. There could even be an argument 1 per 10 might be a good ratio. I just haven't seen any argument that none is superior other than the dev time may be too much over other QoL improvements like perk search bar.
One argument you keep bringing up that I can't even fathom is the 'well you decided to play the game, so you have to play EVERYTHING that could pop up'. This game is far too bug ridden and too many edge cases that sum up to showing up in nearly every match that not having a good time occurs far too often. If that is limited to someone despising Ghostface's reveal mechanic, I don't mind never running into that player. I'd rather both sides are having a good time in every match beyond the win loss requirement. If they get a good Blast Mine on me before they die, they probably had fun. If I flashbang save my teammate for them to just get downed again, the Killer still got the hook. If my teammate hook suicides because it was a Nurse, no one in that match has fun, regardless of side. If you think someone deserves every match that could happen, then could you take all my Slugging Hag matches when I play soloq, thanks.
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I'm fine with it being a Hex, but it certainly deserves some buffs. One idea is the Hex doesn't spawn until the first hook, similar to Plaything/Face the Darkness. Another is the skillcheck penalties are changed to 2% per stack max of 3/4/5 (from 6% flat), but only halved when the hex is cleansed (from 0% when cleansed). This second idea would encourage weaker players to cleanse it early, similar to a Devour Hope level hunt for the Hex. A third idea is at 5 stacks it doesn't remove the sound effect, but make it random from 56%/70%/84%, as the shortened and inconsistent rates makes me miss skill checks more than no sound at all.
Arguably all 3 of these buffs could be applied without it being overwhelming, as it can be cleansed even at 1 token with minimal side effects.
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I think it is fine except for one bad scenario. It shouldn't work on Survivors recently unhooked. It is so disgusting that you can down the unhooker in basement (or any other setup), force the formerly hooked Survivor to vault the window or pallet, and grab them to bypass BT because the slowdown forces Medium vaults at windows. It just encourages/buffs camping, and shouldn't work that way.
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Tunneling is anytime a Survivor is hit (with the intent to rehook, not merely slug for pressure) post-hook without doing a Conspicuous Action. (Although personally I would alter the in-game CA definition to exclude self healing, but include 16s out of chase after healing being completed on you to healthy, so that once you are fully healed you are fair game again, but accidentally tapping RMB or being picked up from slugged doesn't condemn you to death. The delay after being fully healed is in case of the Killer waiting for healing to intentionally tunnel, but also For the People/Autodidact usage that you have no control over.)
In an example hooked Survivor A is unhooked, slugged for pressure, and unhooking Survivor B is chased and hooked. Survivor C picks up Survivor A, then Survivor A is redowned and hooked. In this case I consider Survivor A to be tunneled. If the Killer went for Survivor C instead, then Survivor A would not have been tunneled (in the foreseeable future).
The 'ok' argument for me would be the 'bodyblock for unhooker' or endgame (all gens completed). It still is technically tunneling in those cases, but they asked to be hit and chased in the first camp, and the killer has nothing better to do in the second.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3482796#Comment_3482796
I get a lot of mileage out of Ambush on Pig. You need to use it from a stealth scenario, not at a loop. Most loops, unless they completely obscure the survivors view, won't be cleared with an Ambush, even if it had a shorter charge/cooldown.
Ambush from around a corner before the survivor is aware, basically counters any form of 'hold w', you can hit them before they get a chance to gain any ground from running away, and before they get to a loop in the first place.
I honestly get more mileage out of crouching than the charge attack itself. The charge attack saves me 2 STBFL stacks at best, but the loud announcement of my arrival typically gives Survivors time to reach the window/pallet of the jungle gym they are in. To be fair, the open gens don't have the pallet/window as easily accessible, but they are also proportionately harder to sneak up to. I think Pig should get Devious points for hits after crouching, as that seems to be the hardest category to get BP in as her.
I think Pig's innate slowdown is a strong enough power to win most matches through attrition, but it requires Bloodlusting filler pallets against the Survivors with skill. That doesn't feel good or like you outskilled them, but it gets the job done. I understand people wanting more for her, but I think they would be better served with a Killer with a different playstyle.
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@not_requested49 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3481629#Comment_3481629
Curse? Isn't avoiding being hooked a good thing?
I was making a joke about the Deliverance curse is never getting perk value due to getting hooked first. Breakdown is the opposite, with wanting to be hooked once on the corner hook to prevent hooks there for 3 minutes. Alternatively the Killer isn't camping hooks and hunting down people across the map instead. Curse is just being used to say 'not get perk value', not 'help win the match'.
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@Krazzik said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3481929#Comment_3481929
The killer is not 'punishing' survivors by playing a killer the survivors don't like. they're just playing a killer they want to play. If a survivor HATES certain killers to the extent that they DC the moment they find out they're in a game with them, that player shouldn't be playing the game. Simple. By queueing up as survivor in Dead by Daylight you're agreeing to play that game through regardless of who the killer is, what the map is, what perks or addons are in play.
Being lenient on people DCing does not work, because if it becomes even more of the norm and seen as okay when people DC, every game is going to have DCers, and while the bots are a good bandaid fix, they're no substitute for a real player, and it doesn't feel good to go against them in an online game you're playing to play against actual people.
I do sympathise with people who have actual phobias or medical issues that prevent them from playing against Plague or Doctor for example, but those people are in a tiny minority of overall DCs. Those DCs are more understandable but I'd wager 95%+ of total DCs are not because of that.
I am not defending DCs, I am defending bans to help prevent DCs, as well as improve the game in general. Kind of like how it is a good idea to provide basic food/water/shelter for people to prevent drug abuse and violent crime. When people's quality of life is better, you get the worse extremes less often, be that in a videogame ecosystem or real life. Also the 'punish' argument was more me saying it is either both sides are 'punished', or no sides are. Especially since only slightly longer queue times for a small subset of the population was the 'punishment' compared to not having fun at all playing the game designed for you to have fun.
What is at stake here? The top 5-10 Killers have 50% longer queues at worst, (using the Beta wiggle option to estimate the rate of people going through the options) so 2 minutes becomes 3 minutes. What is to gain? dropping from (in my experience) ~10% chance of a DC (or hook suicide now, or when bots are added) due to Killer choice becoming ~1% (assuming the people who only like less than 20% of the Killers in the game). This allows the 3 other Survivors and the Killer player to actually have a real match! Less bad matches would occur for people who don't DC/hook suicide as well. I personally hate Oni because my team always feeds him blood, but don't mind him when he chases me first. This wouldn't even guarantee bans are used on Blight/Nurse/Wesker, as many people still say they enjoy going against those Killers. Some scaredycats might want to ban stealth Killers, or when playing with lag you want to ban Ranged Killers to prevent hitting you around corners/through walls. This would do far more to increase quality of life, than stand to decrease it, even in the worse cases.
I don't even plan on using the accessibility concept for my argument, as I just think they should add a cotton-candy type option for Plague instead for example (only changing aesthetics, not mechanics). I don't know how they could help Doc/epilepsy though with how the power functions.
Also I can't tell you the amount of times I load into a garbage map with no LOS blockers as Ghostie and cry. Map bans also help reduce the worst experiences for Killers as well. I have seen all too many enemy Huntresses get RPD and facecamp the first hook, rather than play through on the map they can hardly use their power in.
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@Krazzik said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3481623#Comment_3481623
This is ridiculous. Someone who only plays one killer is fully within their right to do that. They paid for the game and they're abiding by the rules of the game. Just because many people don't like playing against certain killers doesn't mean it's fair to just remove them from the game. Heck I hate going against Nurse and Blight but I don't ask for them to be removed or for people playing them to be punished, that's absurd.
Also this system would make new killers pretty much unplayable, because the day they're released loads of people play them and now they have massive queue times. BHVR isn't gonna punish players who just bought their newest DLC.
And if people DC against a certain killer because they don't like them, that's an issue with that player being entitled and childish, not the fault of the player playing the killer. You don't solve that by punishing someone who did nothing wrong.
I completely agree that certain killers have issues that should be dealt with. Nurse has too strong of a basekit and should be tuned down, Blight has addons that need heavy nerfs and Skull Merchant needs a complete redesign so she can't 3-gen as strongly. Those are issues that should be addressed, but you can't just punish people playing them.
Someone who only plays one killer... - As does the 4 Survivors who also purchased the game. Are they forcefully conscripted into that player's power fantasy? It also would prevent the people playing against them from quitting immediately, giving them real matches instead of boring slogs of 1v3s or fewer. You later say you don't punish someone who did nothing wrong, yet somehow don't recognize that is exactly what the Killer player more often is doing to the Survivors who despise that Killer. This would solve the problem you too are complaining about. Some people have emetophobia, or fear of vomiting, and cannot play against Plague at all. This has the pleasant side effect of allowing other such players who can't handle a specific theme of Killer to play the game. Having a longer queue time at the cost of having real matches without hook suicides isn't a punishment by the craziest stretch of the imagination.
As far as the newly released Killer concept they could disable the feature for the first week or two after a release. They said they do the same with map repeat prevention not working (or rather being turned off) when releasing new maps, so the concept is easily translated over. Alternatively they could just not allow for banning the new Killer during that timeframe. Plenty of games with ban features for characters have already solved this non-existent problem.
Again, having 6 (1 per 5, we are above 30 below 35) Killer bans is a personal choice, but I would make the argument that if the exact same 6 Killers are banned by the entire population then they clearly are a problem in dire need of fixing. By allowing the diseased wound of a problem to fester, you risk poisoning the trust of the playerbase to the point of killing them off. Also, the devs said less than half of the playerbase even utilized the Beta Wiggle skillcheck system when that was being tested. Most people don't look in the options, so this wouldn't significantly impact matchmaking even if hypothetically everyone banned say Nurse.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3481651#Comment_3481651
Oh right, you think you 4k SWF on level where tunneling is not possible as a Ghost face with 0 slowdown.
Of course you do buddy.... Everyone believes you, don't worry.
I can play and win most of my games without slowdown on my main killers. But I would never dare to say I can do that against competent SWF group. Either stack slowdown to give myself more time or tunnel someone.
If you can 4k with average killer (not top4) SWF without any slowdown or tunneling, then I doubt they were good SWF...
I never go into the game with plan to tunnel, or 3-gen. That's something everyone should decide during the game imo.
Some games need it and some survivors deserve it.
Why are you so worried about the boogeyman of SWF when something like 60% of matches are solo survs. It was only like 5% of matches that are actually 4-mans (and probably only 1/5 of those are even worth worrying about). Even then pressure based slowdown is better than all slowdown other than maybe Pentimento. Penti is 30% slowdown, but if I have a survivor on hook and a survivor in chase, I have effectively 75% slowdown. By maintaining heavy pressure you can have far greater slowdown than the best perks can provide. If your chases are so short due to lethality perks like Enduring, Spirit Fury, Devour Hope, or Bamboozle, then you reach that 75% slowdown (or greater) all the more often.
Ghosty's strength in particular is based on not being in chase. You 99 as many Survs as possible, spend longer approaching from odd angles to get rewarded with a 2s chase. If you are chasing as Ghostface you are playing a different killer entirely, Chaseface, which I would argue Chaseface is worse than both Trapper and even Sadako. Sometimes you have to fake a chase to burn a pallet or force someone else to rescue, but a bog standard M1 chase if the fastest way to lose as Ghosty. Intel perks are ideal to know where people are, and playing Survivor is key to knowing what they should do, and how to intercept or prevent their goals from being reached. Most 4-man SWFs are only a threat when they intentionally force a double M1 hook trade (sending only 1 to rescue) or intentionally leave their friends on hook to 2nd stage. Both of those tactics are exceedingly boring however, and only the sweatiest of teams do that. Luckily I can only remember 1 team EVER that was that sweaty, and the match was over in less than 5 minutes so it really didn't waste my life or ruin my day.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3481589#Comment_3481589
Yeah, but at that point you are going to lose anyway.... It just means tunneling won't save you from that.
That's why I take the risk to learn something new and how to actually win against them, instead of crutching on something that only kills soloq/newbies. I have reached the point where I can consistently win with Meme perks on Blight/Nurse, 1 gen Slowdown on Ghostface, and 0 gen slowdown on select powerful killers. (I could probably win with 0 gen slowdown on Ghosty, but I like hiding Floods with PR. People catch onto Floods much sooner without PR.) Lose some matches in the short run in order to win far far far more in the long run. I understand some people have a poor ability to recognize delayed gratification, but that is their problem to overcome.
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They would need to 'fix' sabo usage with toolboxes, because when they reduced the Killer hit recovery from 3.0s to 2.7s, they didn't correspondingly reduce the sabo timer from 3.0s. Sabo would need to be short enough of a timer to be a threat, without being instant like old 99'd hook sabos.
In live sabo is so worthless that I sabo'd the hook near where my teammate got downed (while the killer was carrying them), I sprinted over to sabo the 2nd hook the Killer was heading towards, and they still were able to redirect to a third hook and hook them before my teammate was able to wiggle out. The only time sabo is of value is when working around corners of the map, Breakdown, and people being killed. The problem is corners still force someone else to pick up when dropped, 3v1s are a free win for killer outside of 1 gen remaining more than 50% progressed, and Breakdown seems to have a reverse Deliverance curse where the Killer either never hooks that person or never returns to hook when it is equipped.
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@Krazzik said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3481540#Comment_3481540
Killer bans and map bans would only cause even -worse- queues than a non-repeat rule would. Now not only would Weskers have longer queue times but Nurses and Blights would never get games.
I completely understand that playing against the same killer frequently is annoying but BHVR is never going to create slower queue times EVER. It's a strict stance they have.
"Now Nurses and Blights would never get games": I see that as a feature, not a flaw. Unenjoyable facets of the game shouldn't be forced on the playerbase in the hopes they don't get a garbage match, regardless of which side is forced to endure. People will learn to play more than their 1-trick, people will ban the next newest Flavor of the Month, and the cycle will repeat so that everyone (at least in the top half of effective Killers) is played.
Match quality is far more important than queue times, as most of the playerbase seems to think when I go against a 3gen Skull Merchant and my soloq teammates DC instead of play it out, or they DC on the first Nurse blink being heard. After that the remaining 4 players are forced to slog out an unplayably unfun match. Even after DC bots are added, that doesn't stop hook suiciding being a problem instead.
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Tunneling only beats weak Survivors and soloq, so relying on tunneling to win will win most of people's matches, but will cause a swift loss against anyone with skill. After losing to someone with skill, it will falsely reinforce the idea "I just didn't tunnel hard enough", when the truth is the opposite. Learning how to win without tunneling will improve one's skill in the game against the Survs that actually matter. If Killers crutch on blindly tunneling they will make silly and blatantly false claims just showing they never learned to play the game.
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@Krazzik said:
I think BHVR puts a bit too much stock in pure data and analytics to the point where if something has an okay win-rate then they don't care what anyone says, that killer/perk is fine. Doesn't matter if they feel miserable to play as or play against.
Saying that though, the last load of kill-rates we saw had Trapper bottom of the table and they STILL said Trapper is in a good place and doesn't need anything. And Trapper being awful is one of the few things the majority of the community can agree upon.
To be fair to Trapper, he has to be simple enough to be a training wheels Killer also. I would say adjusting trap spawning to be open and touching loops would help him without altering him to be too mechanically difficult to learn.
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@Krazzik said:
Unlike maps, they can't add a system that stops you getting the same killer twice in a row, because that would ultimately mean that popular killers get longer queue times, which isn't fair. You shouldn't have to wait in a longer queue just because the killer you like playing happens to be popular.
Ideally they would balance killers more and give certain unpopular killers better QoL changes to fix anything unfun and clunky. That's the healthiest way to get people to play more killers.
It also isn't fun to have to deal with any Killer 10 times in a row other than a brand new Killer. I don't think that is unfair for longer queues, as you know the risk when you queue up. Also a longer queue isn't no matches, just 3-5 minutes wait instead of 1-2. I 100% agree buffing or otherwise improving the playability of older/less played Killers. I still think there should be at the bare minimum Killer repeat prevention, but I would go as far as to give Survivors Killer bans at a rate of 1 per 5 Killers, while giving Killers map bans at the same rate.
People already ragequit by DCing or hook suiciding against things like Nurse and Skull Merchant, so a ban system would just help prevent a DC from Killer pick alone.
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I like it from a macro decision perspective, as it only punishes people who are too foolish to plan for the future, which is rare and good.
At the same time if they announced this was the next dated mechanic to go like anti-facecamping kobe and hook grabs, I wouldn't shed too many tears.
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@DredgeyEdgey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3478913#Comment_3478913
Clowns: has 4 bottles to get a is it 7 or 10% haste for 5s a perk grants a permanent 3% meaning the killer is 4or 7% faster ,
you need to use one bottle to catch up you've probably used 1 to get your first hit
That's 2 bottles left
Bottles slow down 15% meaning your slowing a a surivor by 12%
The difference between getting a hit and that pallet is milliseconds
Pigs anti loop is getting close? Pig is normally slower than a surivor when crouching their even faster now
Pluage the surivors are gonna do exactly what you said being injures is no threat to them
Deathslinger not everyone has 100% accuracy and when you miss your gonna feel that distance
Fear monger: their gonna get off the gen when they hear you
Yellow bottles (normally) give 2.3m (over 5s with 10% haste), and Purple bottles (normally) loses the Survivor 1.8m (over ~3s, 1s in the gas 2s upon leaving it). The only important thing about Purple bottles is it forces medium vaults, which is usually a good finisher near windows. Good clowns use Yellow bottles, so if you see a Clown using Purple they more often than not are bad, or securing the window hit due to the medium vault facet mentioned earlier. Also the hindered is multiplicative, not additive, so it makes the MfT 3% haste also reduced by 15%.
The entire point of stealth is to approach from an angle that isn't directly in the Survivor's line of sight in order to save time in chase that would have been lost from holding W from the straight line approach. Also many gen locations make it so you can't see the approaching Killer, and are reliant on TR if you want to leave early. Bad Pigs fail at stealth and lose time/distance, good Pigs shorten or remove the first chase time by using stealth correctly. If they stay injured they are downed, if they heal up you get slowdown after hooks on top of trap slowdown, winning through attrition alone.
Plague can (proxy)camp hooks indefinitely with an injured cast of Survs, forcing a cleanse or extra hook state. The Survs have to leave when they hear TR on the gen to get meaningful distance or otherwise the attrition of injured early drop pallets will cause them to lose.
Deathslinger again is reliant on learning the Killer and getting good with the edge case scenarios. You don't need to hit every shot, just not randomly go for bad shots. Cornering a Surv on a loop forces them into a lose lose that Sprint Burst or Lithe would have saved them from far more often from a quick death with MfT. Also if we are assuming Survivors are god-tier never make a mistake top skill bracket, then we equally have to assume the Killer too is god-tier 100% accuracy never take a bad shot top skill bracket.
Fearmonger is causing insane slowdown if you allege they are letting go of all gens the milisecond they enter TR. At 32m if the Surv runs from the onset, they are Exhausted, and it would take 53.33s in a white-room hold-W run to escape. At that same 32m white-room run with MfT and waiting for Exhaustion to end before running are getting caught in ~47.3s instead (4.6-2.26 in the first 5s, then 4.6-4.12 for the rest), so waiting for the exhaustion is helping the Killer in the case of MfT. Even then more often than not the maps are designed so the Killer can cut people off by approaching from a better angle, so that would make the early run times more important to get distance from the gen. Then everyone near the running Surv is also running the milisecond they enter TR, because if they don't, then they are swapped onto by the Killer for an easy down.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3478897#Comment_3478897
I play wraith a lot but with him I get only P100 swf:s and all exceptional loopers and gen rushers literally. I don't even remember last time I got normal survivors with him. With oni I at least sometimes get normal survivors though I have to dodge some lobbies.
I like to play enjoyable way but survivors want to rush gens as fast as possible so pipping should rather work same way as mmr as there is just not enough time to do so on killer. Maybe mega tunneling one out is the only way to consistently pip but I don't like to do that often only when survivors have wronged me.
Mega tunneling is the opposite way to pip lol, people will die on first/second hook too often to get Devout, too few chases for Hunter, and not enough injuries for Malicious. I think the best (as in most enjoyable) matches are when the incentive is on that side. The best Survivor matches are during 100% Surv, and the best Killer matches during 100% Killer. Playing against the incentive seems to only bring un-fun sweats (on both sides) in my experience.
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@DredgeyEdgey said:
Like why I can't play any of the weaker killers against this horribly made perk and yet is gonna last longer than undying did
Can't play clown because bottles are less effective
can't play pig because there no anti loop
can't play pluage because they want to be injured
If you miss 1 shot as deathslinger your never catching them
Can't play doc because they are faster Tham you when charging shock
Can't even play Knight because they are faster than the guards.
I guess it's balanced though then I wonder why everyone playing wesker because he's one of the few that can deal with this bs
Yellow Bottles give me far more hits than Purple when I play Clown, and since the Hindered is multiplicative it still wrecks MfT.
Pig's 'antiloop' is catching people off guard and getting a free hit. The follow-up hit can just be easily bloodlusted at a weak pallet. Strangely enough this makes Borgo/Garden easier maps than Suffo Pit or Coal tower which use legit loops instead of filler pallets.
Plague gets a free injury state on everyone, that is counter enough. They have to pre-run from the milisecond they hear TR to get value, and at that point you can corral the chase towards another gen and provide double the pressure.
A good Slinger shouldn't be missing. Practice more and take risky shots to learn the hitboxes to the point no shots are risky for you.
Doc/Knight, yeah legit hard counters them, but that's fine in the case of Knight. No one has fun during a Knight game, so hopefully this makes less Knight matches occur. Doc is out of date and needs some QoL love.
Even then if this is such a pain point at least the counter is a general perk available to everyone - Fearmonger. It kinda is like the silly complaints about Prove Thyself when the hard counter Discordance exists, but at least Discordance had the excuse of being locked behind the Legion. (Less of an excuse than say Deadlock behind Pinhead, a cash only no Iri shard Killer.)
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Pips actively discourage cheesing quick/early kills, punish instadown Killers, and overall work directly in the opposite direction of MMR towards a more enjoyable game for all participants. MMR encourages a kill at all costs, regardless of the method utilized. If I were to take your profile pic to be your favored Killer, Oni is particularly bad with pips. He basically wins in a 2-4 man slug with 2 second chases or he gets ran for 5 gens from every pallet in the map being predropped. Instadown doesn't help Malicious, a snowball win denies multiple hook stages for Devout, and you only get Hunter points based on the chase length, so instadown or being ran forever against predrops are both hindering Hunter. Wraith is exceptional at pipping, as his chase duration is short getting the hit, and requires multiple injury states to get more hits. People like to heal against Wraith more often than focusing gens, so that helps get more hits and more short chases. Oni encourages just popping the gen and leaving to deny the opportunity for a snowball victory.
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You can only grab a tape from an active TV. If you could grab a tape from a currently off TV then a reduced or removed CD would be fine. If you spam TP on CD you can prevent Survivors from ever getting a tape to save themselves, and it will basically just be a gen speedrun game everytime Onryo is the Killer almost like Tombstone Myers but without his Locker counterplay.
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3476118#Comment_3476118
While your points about Doctor are quite valid, I would argue that Doctor is also a very easy killer to play with how much you get from him.
- Locate survivors within your terror radius (32m default) via Static Blast.
- Shock Therapy interrupts Survivors actions and suppresses their ability to interact with pallets/vaults for 2.5 seconds.
- Madness Tier 1: Skill Checks have a 33% chance to be Madness Skill Checks.
- Madness Tier 2 causes Survivors to hallucinate in the form of Illusory Doctors, and skill checks have a 66% chance to be Madness Skill Checks.
- Madness Tier 3 causes Survivors to scream intermittently and experience hallucinations in the form of Illusory Doctors. Skill Checks have a 100% chance to be Madness Skill Checks. Suppresses the ability of Survivors to interact both with other Survivors, and Props. Suppresses the ability of Survivors to use their Items.
- When Madness tiers up Survivors scream once, revealing their location to The Doctor.
That's before getting into add-ons that give you more information such as Iri King which lets you see illusionary red stains as well as the auras of illusionary Doctors and illusionary pallets.
So while Doctor is a weaker, more outdated killer, there is no denying just how much he has going for him in comparison to other killers who have to patrol gens to find survivors and make deductions based on generator progress and whether or not there are any scratch marks nearby.
The biggest problem with Doc is you need to work with 3 main variables just to use your basic power. First you need to adjust to each individual Survivor's latency, as a shock working on the 40ms Dwight doesn't work on the 120ms Meg. Secondly you have to worry about the basekit .5s delay on the shock even affecting them, with add-ons to reduce the time to shock helping and hurting at different loops. Finally using the power has to typically be done without LOS, so you need to place the cone so that all options are cut off.
I respect every Doc who gets hits reliably, but the latency problem alone makes me hate playing as him. I shouldn't have to hit escape mid-chase and check the Surv's current ping in order to actually play effectively.
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@th3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3476123#Comment_3476123
Keep in mind this'll be different after next update because they want to make survivor bp gain even harder for no reason with PT's coop point bonus removal.
I don't know why they are nerfing a Killer perk that Survivors can select, but hey, its their game. I lose more of my games where people solo gens and don't bring PT. I win more of my games when 2 people are duoing the gen so I can either double stalk as Ghosty, or otherwise get double the pressure for walking somewhere only once and forcing 2 Survs off of gens.
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17.38seconds x 4m/s x 1.07 speedboost = ~74m.
74(.3864)m / 4m/s / 1.03 speedboost = ~18.05seconds
With the wiggle of human error that fits the math. Its working correctly.
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The math roughly tracks given human error.
17.38seconds x 4m/s x 1.07 speedboost = ~74m.
74(.3864)m / 4m/s / 1.03 speedboost = ~18.05seconds
Only a .1 mathematical second difference from your results, which given the wiggle seen in the recordings and angled camera difference (not allowing for a perfect straight line) easily explains.
The strength of speed boosts comes in the breakeven points, like can you reach a window before a swing now, or drop the pallet safely in time?
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One of the largest problems with SM is how you can disarm a drone that was on a gen, but she can just replace the drone before your timer runs out. There should be a phantom drone placement zone to prevent spamming drones on the same spot when they get disarmed, at the very least until the drone disappears from the Surv's shoulder.
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@MDRSan said:
I usually follow the BP bonus when I play survivor or killer but one thing I’ve noticed is whenever there’s a survivor BP bonus it usually correlates to a higher chance of running into a killer that either BMs or goes for effective and legitimate, but really unfun to play against tactics that minimizes the base BP earnings survivors are capable of. This has the side effect of making it roughly the same BP gains in those matches as a survivor as if I played at a time when the bonus wasn’t up - negating the point of the bonus in the first place. It’s really just become a proxy for how long I can expect queue times as killer than any sort of actual bonus for playing a needed roll.
I do gens, unhook and heal teammates, engage in chases and get just a fraction of the BPs I get when I’m playing killer and so much as sneeze (provided the sneeze isn’t classified as a special attack, in which case - deviousness bonus!). When there’s a cap on score event types, why is there such a discrepancy between the ease of BP earning between the 2 rolls? Does anyone else notice this or is this just negativity bias?
Survivor BP is horrifically tuned in comparison to Killer.
Killer gets all 4 categories for progressing their wincon. Damage someone with your power? Brutality+Deviousness+Hunter. Do it again then hook them? All 4 now.
Survivor do gens. Ok 10k max BP, do something else. Ok I'm against Plague and can't heal my teammates, that denies me Nearly 10k from the onset. Boldness? Sorry, the Bubba facecamped the first player on hook, you don't get chase BP. Alternatively the Nurse/Blight is instadowning your team, chase didn't last long enough to give you BP. Or yet another alternative the Wraith is playing hit and run, even though you are being chased, he isn't 'in chase' with you, so no Boldness BP. Survival BP? 7k from escaping, and nearly no other way to get a decent amount other than bringing Deliverance or Sole Survivor ratting at the end of every match.
The best way to fix BP gains (for both sides since Killer can't reach 10k Sacrifice normally) is uncap the categories, and put the cap at 40k BP total. Even if you have to implement a diminishing returns system, it would still be for the better.
The best Survivor build for BP is any boon for 1.5k Boldness per boon, PT to encourage cooping gens for the bonus BP (otherwise people will use their brain and solo gens instead), Deliverance for a bit of Survival BP even if you die, and a flex 'feel good' perk.
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@nars said:
"The arguments make no sense"
Arguments you say make no sense are as follows:
- Its unearned because being injured is unearned
being injured, in itself, is not earning it or a skilled requirement. Staying injured is. This is why resilience is seen as a risk-reward perk because you get a neat 9% bonus to gens if you choose to stay injured, which is risky because if you get found while injured it can lead to a very quick chase. This principle, should dictate that MFT is risk-reward because it has the same philosophy; a great bonus for staying injured. A risk for a reward. However MFT's effect is meaningless beyond chase, meaning there is no reason to stay injured.
Think of it this way, would there be any incentive to stay injured out of chase if resilience ONLY affected vault speeds? Having an increased vault speed isnt worth staying injured outside of chase. It would be SOLELY a chase perk. MFT works the same way; what does 3% do for you outside of chase? Nothing worth staying injured and potentially being an easy chase for the killer.
So instead you just heal up. Its no different from normal gameplay, the intended risk reward has no risk because theres no actual reason to take the risk. So instead of staying injured and having risky extended chases, you just start healthy, get injured, and extend the chase beyond belief for doing nothing.
- Game without MFT: Start healthy, get injured, go heal.
- Game with MFT: Start healthy, get injured, extend the chase, go heal, repeat.
Getting hit does not count as earning it. You play the game the exact same way, just if you equip MFT your chases are longer. Thats it, simply equip perk=longer chases. Your skill determines just how big that increase is of course, but the idea that just equipping it will ALWAYS increase the chasetime is absurd. No activation condition, no drawback, nothing. Just play the game and you chase longer.
"3% isnt a big deal"
3/15 is 20%. So while you are injured your chase is increased by 20%. Killer powers can circumvent this, nurse blight being good examples as their mobility and wiggle room far outclasses 3% bonus. But even a killer like wesker will feel it, because that extra distance will mean the difference between being within bound range or out of it. it adds up.
With MFT, 115% killers become 112% percent killers. Or in simpler terms, 4.48m/s. 110% killers become 4.28m/s.
Huntress will now only be able to hit the tightest of hatchest, and on those LOS blocking filler pallets chasing them is just a straight up waste of time.
Hag is now unplayable beyond her web.
Trickster... is just even more useless.
Its especially broken against M1 killers. The 20% chasetime increase is a flat statistic that exlcudes anything beyond running away in a straight line, something killer powers change. But M1 killers? nah thats just how they work. Sadako just takes 20% longer to hit an injured survivor. And they didnt even have to earn it, they just get that bonus for being hit.
MFT is just stupid and should go. another little tidbit: if you do the math, then MFT provides an extra 8 SECONDS OF TIME after an onhit burst. M1 killers cant handle that, and against 110% killers its 18s.
It carries the same stupid issues as old DH, providing increased chasetime to survivors for completely free with no drawbacks. not to mention its fantastic synergy with dead hard.
The drawback is you cannot pair this with any other Exhaustion perk (other than DH+Iron Will, but DH doesn't apply to first down). I don't have a problem with MfT on 90% of the Killer cast, because I would be more frustrated or slowed down by an effective Sprint Burst or Lithe or Balanced Landing. The only Killers I 100% agree it makes life miserable for are Huntress, Doctor, and Knight.
Huntress forces you to snipe the rounded corner shots, or above the loop. Doctor is slowed far far far too much against MfT that you only lose distance, so you are effectively without a power until the pallet is dropped. Knight's Guards are too slow to catch up to MfT, but Knight is horrible to play against to begin with, so nothing of value is lost. Huntress can use skill to still win at loops, so you only lose on an off day or if you were bad with Huntress to begin with. Doctor is the only Killer unfairly impacted by the perk. Doc is horribly outdated regardless, and if he got Wesker's bugged grab effect at vaults (teleporting Survivors before the vault even if mid-vault) then he would be playable. Miserable to go against, just as bugged Wesker is, but playable.
I still think the Endurance effects should be removed/swapped to another perk, Buckle Up being a prime contender, but that is the only nerf MfT needs.
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@darksouls3600 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/381980/trail-of-torment-july-proposed-buff
The buff is nice and your point is irrelevant for the perk, is like saying that some perk are OP in 2 killers and nerf the perk because of this, if the killer camp the gen... Just rush the others gens and GG.
Do you always leave Survivors on hook and only pump gens when someone gets hooked? Typically at least one player attempts a rescue at the very least, which provides pressure based slowdown. Then typically another Survivor recognizes that the other Surv is in chase via the HUD, and goes for the rescue. That is exactly what I see in the vast majority of my matches on both sides. The only exception is in a SWF where the players are on comms outside of the game. The problem with this change is it will stomp soloq harder, but not change SWF matches in the slightest. The stats will indicate more kill rates on the perk, without recognizing it is only from killing soloq. It is the exact kind of bad spreadsheet styled buff that will change the game for the worse in the majority of cases.
A shorter CD with the current injury removes limitation would at least make both soloq and SWF equally (or at least more closely) affected.
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@Spectralfx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3473051#Comment_3473051
Except MFT isn't there to counter any "scummy tactic", same with old DH.
oh, you got injured? here's a free effect.
that's the issue.
last time I checked, killer hurting survivors isn't booked under "scummy tactic", yet anyways.
The main use of MfT's endurance is to tank a hit after picking up a slugged Survivor. Intentionally slugging someone for long enough for them to be healed/recovered is generally considered bm/scummy, just as hard tunnelling off hook is as well. I mentioned the majority of endurance is anti-tunnel, so yeah, 'hurting survs' isn't scummy, hard tunnelling is.
To be fair I did say the majority of endurance benefits. Current Styptic is 5s of Endurance at the cost of the add-on and item, and I feel as though that is fair with enough counterplay, especially now that the Styptic doesn't grant Endurance for the same time a Syringe could heal (old green medkit with Botany and both Styptic+Syringe forcing an 8s lose-lose).
Again, MfT doesn't deserve to be 2 perks in one, and I love how Buckle Up is getting Endurance on the healed Survivor from the ground, but honestly they should take the entirety of MfT's endurance and slap it onto Buckle Up instead to make it an omega anti-slug perk.
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@Spectralfx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3473027#Comment_3473027
I totally agree, we already have waaaaay too many sources of endurance in the game already, its such unfun to face as killer.
that's the very reason old DH got nerfed in the first place and, here they are, injecting yet more free health states into the game like they didn't learn how game breaking this is.
I mean most of the endurance sources are anti-tunnel/scummy tactic counterplay, so I haven't run into them in any meaningful capacity. I just don't agree with 2 for 1 perks without sufficient conditions (Like No One Left Behind is crazy on paper, but only usable for like 10s every 5th match). I didn't even have an issue with the .5s DH because I saw so many failed uses (due to baiting/outplaying/latency), that I would argue I got more value from people bringing it than say Sprint Burst or any other perk, exhaustion or no.
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I do think MfT should have the endurance effect removed from it, as it really doesn't need to be 2 perks in one.
As far as the speed boost I have only had issue with it as Huntress/Doctor/Knight, and technically shack as M1 Killers just feels like you need to burn the 3 window vaults as fast as possible. Also even then I can just use the Exhaustion add-on as Huntress, allow the Survivors to have fun by not playing Knight, but Doc is just outdated and needs some QoL updates. Fearmonger and Blood Echo counter MfT effectively enough, and it's kinda like complaining about Prove Thyself when Discordance hard counters it.
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@Crowman said:
The perk literally tells survivors it is active and they can turn it off when it's safe. I don't think this will be nearly a huge issue as you are making it out to be. Besides can you really say you would prefer killers to run current meta over a perk like ToT?
I love when I see someone use it currently, which is rare, but a pleasant surprise. I can tell it is a memelord gamer and not a sweatlord, so I take the game a bit more chill. I don't want this to be the new go-to camper perk. I also love using it on Myers when I bring the longer T3 add-ons or Oni. I gave 2 alternatives that don't as heavily encourage unenjoyable usage that they already are working to fix (removing hook grabs and anti-camp kobe). This could be 2 steps forward 1 step back, but it can be 3 steps forward instead.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
did you ever consider that you can tap gen in 0.1 seconds and disable the perk with yellow aura?
What?!?! No way! That certainly isn't completely ignoring the potential issues I laid out about the change how Survivors wouldn't even be able to reach the gen before being downed. /s
The issue is hypermobility and instadowns abusing (proxy) camping. Survivors can't move cross map at a speed other than 4.0. Hypermobility Killers can circle the map and make it back in time before someone could even reach the gen. Instadown Killers could potentially Insidious camp, with the added bonus of being able to move. Say you get Crotus Penn with the gen and hook on one of the legs on either side of Killer shack. The Killer can stay at the edge of that map leg, and get all the benefits with none of the risk.
I know too many lower skilled players fall prey to Insidious camping as is, but this allows for a mobile camp station. Even in soloq if you go for the rescue and it is camped, you have to go for a trade, which isn't possible against instadown or hypermobility. Instadown, well instadowns, and hypermobility hits twice from the proxy camped distance before the rescue can happen. If they aren't camped then you have to wait for someone else on the HUD to be shown as in chase, which could be too late and force a second stage on the assumption of camping. Additionally the hypermobility Killers could get a hit then head back to hook, knowing they can get the injury and the before mentioned camp double hit before a trade.
Of the 2 alternatives I listed, the shorter CD allows for more frequent use with the current method. The other option at least ends on placing a Survivor in the dying state, which covers the instadown case, and at least stops it after downing the would be rescuer forcing moving out to another gen to set it back up for the hypermobility case. That doesn't change that it likely would be a free win at that point (2nd stage on the initial hook, and 2 Survivors hooked at the same time), but at least its something.
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They never should have nerfed Calm Spirit to begin with. The silent non-gen actions was not enough of a buff to be countered by this massive nerf. If anything Calm Spirit should silence all Killer specific noises such as Plague vomit noises. You would still puke, it just wouldn't make the sound associated with it.
@JustAnotherNewbie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3471000#Comment_3471000
Imagine the killer brings hexes and you have Calm Spirit, good luck taking forever to cleanse those.
Especially if you wanted to also bless it, now taking 40s instead of 28s.
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There isn't many circumstances that cause a human player to DC, so that makes it more often a Killer action causing the DC in soloq. This also will help the ragequit to deny a hook perk/Mori into not occurring any more (or at least still giving the Killer value). Both ends its a win for people not acting like jerks.