mizark3
mizark3
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@nars said:
1 Thats the point of breaking LOS, to force the LOS blink. Now shes only got one blink, no room for error. Thats where the mindgames come in. Fakes, double backs, triple backs, double/triple back fakes, 360s, that thing you you run around objects, the list goes on.
2 Thats a bad argument. Saying "you cant mindgame a good nurse" is just a cop out. If shes not getting mind game by you, shes outplaying you. That means she is the better player. You absolutely can mindgame a good nurse anyway. Breaking los+wacky movement+everything else=counterplay.
3 her map mobility is some of the worst in the game.
Nurse moves at 3.85m/s. In blink its 13.33m/s. Nurses only blink for mobility when they have 2 charges, its more efficient.
2s to charge, moving at 2.89m/s. 5.78m while charging. then you move through the blink at 13.33m/s for 1.5s. 19.995m during blink. The the 2s fatigue while moving at 0.96 gets you 1.92m. Then you move at 3.85 while you wait for your next blink for 1 more second, 3.85m.
5.78+19.995+1.92+3.85=33.285m per cycle of this. The overall time each cycle takes is 8 seconds. 33.285/8 is 4.160625. Im just gonna round that to 4.16. So effectively, nurses mobility is like moving at 4.16m/s if we're talking just map traversal. Actually slower than your typical m1 killer. Nurses map mobility is only broken when using campbells last breath.
Some of the worst map mobility in the game. m1 killers traverse quicker than she does.
Map Mobility - First off, I thought spamming max range single blinks was better than double blinks? 2s [email protected], [email protected] or 20m total blink, fatigue for 2s @.96. Since you recover charges during the fatigue, and the 2s charge recovery is equal to the 2s fatigue, you stay at full charges permanently. Now you travel at 2.89+2.89+96+.96+20 over 5.5s, or 27.7m/5.5s, or ~5.03 m/s. That is basically permanent Bloodlust 2 on an M1 Killer, and that isn't even taking into consideration that the Nurse can cut corners and blink through walls. There is a level of human error, but I'll just say corner cutting and human error even out for sake of argument. She still has 5m/s map mobility, far and above most.
I disagree with the other points, but I don't know how to persuade you on them. The rock-hard math of Map Mobility is indisputable though. By my count she is better than ~18-21 Killers at Map Mobility (based on whether you consider Singularity/Hag/Pinhead teleports that are in the hands of the Survivors (for the most part) Map Mobility, and I might have skipped/double counted one or two of them).
Disabling charge recovery during fatigue would do well to help balance her out, and would drop the map mobility speed from ~5m/s to 4.72m/s (27.7m/5.5s + 3.85+3.85+2s, 35.4m/7.5s)
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@Pulsar said:
Hey, wow, that's what I've been saying for months.
She's beatable only through intense coordination and even then, it takes so long that few teams are going to bother.
The penalty for DC'ing is less than the SM game 💀
"The penalty for DC'ing is less than the SM game" That is sad that she is so poorly designed as to make that true.
Again my usual suggestion to unbreak SM is leave a phantom drone to prevent replacement until the shoulder tracker is removed by pallet vault/down/45s time out. This would force the SM to leave their camp zone in order to set drones in the same locations.
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The suggestion I keep offering to 'fix' SM, is when a drone is hacked, it leaves a 'phantom' drone at its location. That 'phantom' drone is just there to prevent another drone to be placed there while the shoulder tracker is still on the Survivor. That means if you want to camp your area of choice, you have to chase the tracked Survivor and down them, or wait out the 45s, before you can put another drone back on that same location.
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@Archael said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3489155#Comment_3489155
I just want to correct one thing.
Devs said they want killers to have 60% killrate, which means avarage of 2.4 survs being killed on one trial. So 12 kills in 5 trials: 2-2-3-2-3. Assuming that 3 kills = hatch (but not always), gates should be oppened in 60% matches.
While on paper that sounds right, I can tell you've never played soloq if you think that is the most frequent case.
IIRC soloq makes up for ~60% of games, and every other division of SWF makes up the remaining ~40%. Soloq leads to far more 1 sided stomps, be that Killer or Survivior (Edit: but mostly stomping Survivors, with SWF being the opposite). If we are forced to use small numbers, a similar array of 4-0-4-1(camped in endgame successfully, otherwise would have been 0k)-3(would have been 4k but hatch spawned on the Surv) which shows the same story of kill rates, but entirely different matches, with 40% gate open rate.
So to be generous I'd say you are right in the 40% of SWF matches, and this assessment in 60% (even though 1-sided stomps can happen in SWF, and close matches can happen in soloq, we'll just average them out). A closer estimate of gates would be 48% opened ((.6 soloq * .4 gate open or 24%) + (.4 SWF * .6 gate open or 24%)), and 52% closed ((.6 soloq * .6 gate closed or 36%) + (.4 SWF * .4 gate closed or 16%)) across all matches. Still more than half of matches end up Killer sided in both kill rates and gate rates.
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In my experience the weekend brings out the sweats on both sides. If you play with the incentive you get less sweats, but they still can occur.
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Mostly yes as Killer. I do enjoy 'sherpa'-ing baby Survs as Killer on occasion, by providing them a meaningful chase to learn to improve against. The problem being, if I don't kill them, I artificially inflate their MMR and deflate mine. I preferred ranked based match-making because on the odd baby-Surv lobby I could let them go for more BP and help their journey, instead of bullying them into submission. The matchmaking breaks often enough that I would say I get more babies than turbo-sweats sadly.
As Survivor it is a mixed bag. If I get the 'camping and tunneling is the only way to win' style Killer, while I'm just trying to get a tome done (even if they are camping/tunneling my team), its miserable. At the same time I also don't like going against the Killer who doesn't understand basic loops (like only running on the outside of an L-T wall).
Basically for both sides I don't mind 1-2 escaping through the gates, but 3+ gens remaining or 4 hook stages or fewer means the game was horrible. Everywhere in-between was a match worth my time.
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I think the biggest problem is how if there still is a DC penalty, and someone doesn't want to continue that specific match, they can still hook suicide/afk/refuse to participate in chase and only hold M1 on gens, thus negating most of the value provided by DC bots. Even then, if the banned reasons are expanded to using the unhook attempt, people will just equip Slippery Meat in soloq to justify their Kobes. Similarly a bad faith Survivor can say in post-game chat "I didn't notice the Killer" in reference to when downed or "I had to go to the bathroom". Both of which are actual events that would be difficult to prove malice in. At least with DC bots, the disinterested person can give the match a real chance of carrying on, whereas with a DC penalty remaining they are instead incentivized to end their Survivor's life ASAP to go onto the next match.
As far as the idea "people can DC for any reason", that is true. However, if you have 10+ times the DCs occuring with one Killer/map compared to the rest of the cast (Nurse and/or Skull Merchant and Springwood in particular), then the flaw is with the Killer/map, not the people DCing. The DC reveals the flaw that already exists when found in those theoretical statistical extremes.
There definitely needs to be a limit, as others have mentioned with a Killer DCing on any remotely bad map, or Survivors choosing which Killer/map combo to go against, but it should be adjusted to an extent.
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Any Killer wanting hooks to stay up on kill, I ask for you to play 10 Survivor matches and try to get value by Sabo'ing. Any build, any tactics, just keep track of how often you actually prevent the hook AND the person gets free, by either allied pickup or shoulder drop to injured (without you or the saved Survivor going down quickly afterward). When you realize how pathetic sabo is, then you'll realize it was only 1 bad match that made you think hooks deleting on kill is bad, not a regular effective occurrence.
It is a basekit mechanic to help against camping deliberate 3 gens, and little more. Even then, the amount it 'helps' is very little. Overall it is a macro skill, as others mentioned, that mirrors Survivor's 3 genning themselves. A Killer only falls prey to this when they make a mistake, whereas a Survivor can't kick a fellow Surv off a bad gen (Looking at anyone that does the Saloon gen on Dead Dawg before 1/2 gens remain). Hook removal on death forces meaningful macro decisions like "Do I get the corner/Scourge hook to save time, or take the further hook to prepare for the worst?" It allows for greater skill distinction between the new recruit Killer and the Killer who has played the game for hundreds or thousands of hours.
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@mikewelk said:
Just had a solo queue game against a Wesker (as usual) and this EGC should be self-explanatory of why I made this discussion.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/0TNZT0XP77CQ/zrzut-ekranu-2023-07-21-135952.png
The build I was running was: We'll Make it, Desperate Measures, Windows of Opportunity, and Botany Knowledge. I didn't get any value from that build whatsoever because the game was hectic. I also had a yellow flashlight which I never used. Out of the entire team, apart from the survivor getting tunneled, I sat on gens the least because I was either getting chased or cleansing Pentimento after Playthings were cleansed. He saw me finish the last gen and assumed I was gen-rushing for whatever reason. I completed the last gen with Pentimento active since his gen pressure was pretty bad. Funny thing is that no one in our team even had toolboxes.
Gen-rushing has really lost the meaning behind it and it's commonly used to excuse bad gameplay now.
Nearly every instance of "genrushing" is just Killer copium due to a loss. If they won, they wouldn't claim genrushing. There are legit instances of genrushing, but like when the unhooked Survivor bodyblocking the Killer off of hook claiming tunneling, the well is poisoned with more false instances than true.
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The counter to exit gate BM is a bathroom break, or getting a glass of water. They can't stay in the match longer than 4 minutes if someone is downed, and they will bleed themselves out if they intentionally downed themself (like by a zombie or some such). If the Survivors refuse to open the gates the Killer can open them up without Survivor interference (barring a cheater Survivor, but I think they fixed that particular cheat). Even then, everyone should get up from their chair after a match and talk a brief walk/break. The counter to BM is good health. They want the worst for you? Then give yourself, the best for yourself.
Plus it isn't like every single match has exit gate BM, Killers should be winning roughly 50% of matches (or more), and if in 100% of Survivors BM the Killer, that individual Killer is the only common denominator between all those matches. Maybe a little introspection will help realize why everyone 'hates' that player.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3488549#Comment_3488549
So, first of all- Borrowed Time was a popular perk prior to 6.1.0, but you couldn't fairly call it "meaningfully basekit" unless you self-select only to the very top tier of players, and even then they didn't bring it all the time. The fact of the matter was that you were at the mercy of whether or not your random teammate thought to bring BT, and that's not a roll of the dice you were guaranteed to win whatsoever.
Second, prior to 6.1.0, Borrowed Time did not give Haste the way the basekit mechanic does. Even if you're hit immediately, you're operating with two degrees of a speed boost to get you far enough away from the killer that you're probably at a loop, and that's where you start having agency. That putting you in Deep Wound is definitely annoying, and I personally support changing that mechanic to not be true Endurance for that reason, but there's no way of conceptualising that as anything other than better than you would've been before 6.1.0. There's a difference here between "not perfect" and "meaningfully a buff to tunnelling", and we are very squarely in the first camp.
I went back and checked your original post to see where this idea of four layers of anti-tunnel came from, as there were only ever two and one of them wasn't in your control, and if you're going to count Dead Hard and the syringes as anti-tunnel then you must necessarily count every other perk that isn't actually anti-tunnel but might help you out while you're being tunnelled. How about Sprint Burst? That wasn't changed and works just as well. It's certainly not anti-tunnel, just as Dead Hard certainly wasn't anti-tunnel, so there's absolutely no reason to count one and not the other. Why not Made For This? Lithe? Quick and Quiet? None of these are anti-tunnel and only might help you, exactly like Dead Hard-- with the difference being that none of them are as overwhelmingly, disgustingly overpowered as DH used to be, of course.
So, then, if what we had before was 0-2 sources of actual anti-tunnel (Borrowed Time and Decisive Strike) and a handful of tools you could also leverage while being tunnelled, what we have now is... 1-3 sources of actual anti-tunnel (Basekit Endurance + Haste guaranteed, then Borrowed Time to throw off killers waiting out the ten seconds and Off The Record's other two effects more than its Endurance) plus a handful of tools you could also leverage while being tunnelled.
Honestly, reading that back as I type it, I think we should acknowledge the other anti-tunnel tool that your teammates can bring, Guardian. Nobody does, I'm aware of that, but it is technically a potential source of anti-tunnel if we're counting Borrowed Time.
This is pretty clearly an objective improvement over where we were before, regarding tunnelling. The RNG is gone, you now cannot be downed immediately no matter what, and there are tools that can help mitigate how powerful tunnelling is. It's not perfect, and it could stand to be improved a lot, but that's not the argument we're discussing here- the argument I'm contesting is that tunnelling was buffed in 6.1.0. It wasn't. It was nerfed, albeit not by as much as it could've been.
Self-select to only top-tier - I dunno, I was trash back then (4.7.0 when the non-stealth countered BT was introduced), and I can tell you for sure it was at least 75% pick rate (or at least it felt like it). I do recall immediately pre-6.1.0 many people stopped equipping it, because they knew the basekit was on the horizon, and wanted to test out actually having 4 perks. It may have waxed and waned in-between that timeframe, but at least in my experiences it was essentially basekit (or the would-be rescuer would either bodyblock or stop the unhook and take chase). I don't know what happened in between 4.7.0-6.1.0, so I'll give you 50% of teammates run the perk, so we can claim it is half a layer on average.
Haste = Agency - I already did the comparison, 48m old (12s BT), 44m new(10s BT and 10% haste). Even with a post-hit speed boost if hit immediately off-hook, by the time the Killer catches up, you don't have haste, and heck, the Killer would catch up to you in the same meaningful timespan even if you don't have haste. That doesn't even account for bodyblocking loops/doorframes which can be done for 2s shorter now. You can definitely feel that if unhooked in basement. Also the Killer knows if the hook is a deadzone, so they can proc the Endurance early if it isn't, and wait it out if it is. Unless you are running Windows, you won't know if the Mikaela dropped every single pallet in that corner of the map, and you could run towards a normal pallet spawn only to see you downed yourself.
4 layers - I was showing the extremes of what could be used post-hook, but that is fair to discount DH. If someone were to use the superior SB, they couldn't have DH for anti-tunnel. Styptic and Syringe also I'll accept for the sake of argument to ignore/discount. I very much disagree with your assessment that we currently have 1-3 layers of anti-tunnel though. As I see it, if the Killer has a functioning brain, you have 1 layer, and 1 layer alone. The Killer had to injure you to down you in the majority of circumstances, so they know if you have Iron Will or not. Then if on unhook you are suddenly silent, you have OTR. They know to hit you off hook, negating all (or most, if you consider the silence/aura block helpful still) OTR value. Again, this is hindered by the broken mechanic of Deep Wound = no Endurance, which never should have been implemented. Even then, I'm not sure I would consider the Iron Will/Distortion effects of OTR strictly anti-tunnel as it doesn't help in the majority of circumstances, only niche edge cases (Aura add-ons, loops taller than the Killer where the Survivor can hold-W to make distance instead of playing the loop) and not the majority of tunneling scenarios.
Guardian - I like the idea, but not the execution. Guardian gets value when the Killer doesn't witness the unhook, and the Survivor is able to run away immediately post-unhook. Tunnelers tend to proxy-camp a bit, so that kills the first part, and if people heal, that kills the second part. Even if they run to a corner, the unhooker's scratch marks will still lead the Killer there.The timeframe is too short to be meaningful, and the unhooked Survivor doesn't even get the Killer aura read. I think 1 change would swap this from dog to god, and that would be making the unhooked Survivor full-on Spirit phasing invisible to the Killer for the timer (maybe silencing or disabling collision as well). That way the Killer has to hope they see a blade of grass move if they want to immediately tunnel off hook, even when they witness the rescue.
Also this one is minor, but I just remembered it. They dropped the post-injury speed boost from 2s->1.8s. That helps all the oppressive turbo-tunnelers disproportionately more than M1 Killers, so I'd think that might be better reverted as well. I thought basekit Brutal/STBFL T1 was good because it was mostly for M1s, the post-injury speed boost helps all Killers though, and that I take issue with.
I understand the objective minimum of anti-tunnel is higher, I am taking issue with the maximum also being reduced to the minimum. That is why I argue tunneling was buffed. Even not having DS and hopping into lockers could delay some Killers pre-6.1.0, so I'd say the average would even be higher before that patch without any perks in play.
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@Gandor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3488654#Comment_3488654
For iri addon - AFAIK this was (long time) bug that got fixed in PTB (so in next patch it will work correctly)
No offense, but I'll believe it when I see it. Too many bugs were fixed, only to crop back up in the very next patch. Sadly patch notes in regards to bug-fixes aren't that reliable. That's just one of the 'quirks' of playing DBD.
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A nice QoL buff to all levels of play would be batching charges. Right now the second you tap M2 while sawing, the charge is used, and the saw timer resets. That means if you tap M2 2 times at the start, you burn all the charges but only get 1 saw duration. If it were batched, it would queue up the charge to be used when at 0%, that way you don't have to memorize the timings and can just tap the button once or twice can focus on the chase and its mindgames. I think that would help newbies and veterans alike.
Then if they fix his bugged and worthless Iri, that would also help him be in a better place. The tuning guide is basically a worse version of Purple Chili (same bonus per charge), and since it combines the charges, it slows you down further than you'd expect from what the number says. The saw speed is programmed to reach certain speed thresholds after X% of a charge, not X seconds. That means if you only have 1 charge of the 3 times combined, you reach full speed much later than if you had the normal 3 charges.
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The whole point is to gamble. I get that it sucks to heal 3 people and never get a single skillcheck, but it is few and far between. That being said the default rate (15%/s) gives an estimated 2.4 skill checks in a single normal speed altruistic heal and an estimated 3.24 skillchecks with the first 2 Autodidact checks negative values included.
Personally I think the buff it should get is allowing for Self-Care to trigger Autodidact skill checks and heals, but for only half the bonus. So at 5 stacks it would have the -25% +37.5 for a net +12.5% instead of the normal +50% total. I'd also be fine with bumping the skillcheck rate by an additive 5% (per second) per stack missing, to give you more before you cap, but normal rate once capped.
Even now though, there are more than enough Killers with Sloppy/other Haemorrhage sources to meme-ily farm all 5 stacks on the first heal. I think most Survivors would be happy to give you 5 full stacks ASAP while safe, so they get healed quicker later.
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I think Devil's assessment of lowering the strength of more powerful Killers is probably one of the larger drivers. However Borgo is certainly good for ranged Killers, other than the 1 specific filler loop with recently raised walls.
Also I consider Toba Landing an outdoor indoor map. I like the concept, because it feels open while also having it also be so claustrophobic feeling. I like it for variety sake. I also would really like an indoor outdoor map, like a warehouse or mall atrium. Having a mall with the 2nd story walkways on the sides allowing for a 'sniper's roost' would be super cool. Maybe a broken down ferris wheel in the middle to ensure you can't hit the entire map from 1 side.
As far as MfT, I think it is more of a mid-skill/variety Killer crusher at least for ranged Killers. Most normal loops you can pop a hatchet or spear over the top in at least 1 spot, and you can clip their ankles in the larger loops with a well aimed shot. I know the jungle gym with a single pallet (no window) can be hit the long ways with that type of shot against MfT, as I missed and hit the wall with my hatchet because I'm bad at aiming. I had plenty of time (without quick draw add-ons) to get the rounded shot, but I missed due to skill dif. I can see this being disheartening for some, but for me it is encouraging, as it shows I can still get better/flashier.
Trickster though feels like an entirely different bag. Most Killers aren't interested in him, and most Survivors aren't interested in going against him. It almost feels like a lesser Twins abandonment. With that I can't say it's 'justified', but I can say I understand.
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@Sharby said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3488347#Comment_3488347
BHVR's inability/unwillingness to put a server in the SA region isn't my problem, and while I empathize with those players, nobody has fun getting artificially high ping that renders most of the game unplayable and thus they shouldn't be allowed to play.
Alternatively they should also let the survivors see the latency of the killer before the match starts so I can dodge if the killer is permanently red knife'd.
This I think would be much better. Don't show the Killer, the player, just the ping in the lobby. Leave it up to the Survivors to decide if they are fine with 120+ latency, 250+ latency or even 500+ latency. They can leave before anyone's time is wasted beyond the queue times. I would also show Survivor's latency for the everyone as well (in the pre-game lobby). It usually favors Killer to have high latency Survivors, but still is annoying to run into teleporting Survivors that aren't cheating. 120 is playable, but can lead to a lot a annoying circumstances. If you know "I can't handle a 120 match right now", then it is better to stop that person from playing in it at all, than them Kobe-ing on first hook because the Huntress hit them around a corner/through a wall.
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@nars said:
Once the last gen pops you lose. Killer is completely helpless in endgame without a NWO or NOED. I get that endgame being survivor sided is a reward for finishing the gens but thats another thing, they only even finished the gens because I actively chose to play fairly and not tunnel. I'm being punished for playing nice.
If you are playing fair on all but 2 killers in the whole roster, survivors equal to you in skill are making it to endgame with at least 3 alive. Meaning thats 2 survivors to take protection hits and bodyblock you, 2 survivors to go 99 both gates, etc etc. im not gonna get into details.
Essentially what im getting at is that endgame is just a loss for the killer. Which is stupid because playing fair will always get you to endgame against good survivors. Its completely unfair for endgame to be this unfair to killer, to the point that things like protection hits have 0 risk involved once it begins. In fact, NOTHING has any risk in endgame!
- Unhooked survivors have basekit BT, meaning if the gates within 44m they escape. Moreover, if theres a pallet within 44m then they will very easily be able to get distance from that to the gate. Combine this with the inevitable protection hits and that survivor is guaranteed to escape.
- Any strategy you use in endgame is void. Camping? 2 survivors rushing the hook guarantees they get free, unless their incredibly dumb. Which loops around to the first bullet. Tunneling? You arent gonna be able to start and finish a chase without them making enough distance to the gates to escape on almost every single killer. Then coordinated teams will be taking hits constantly since those have 0 risk anymore.
- Protection hits become a ggez. Normally the counter to protection hits is just to hit them. The downside being they are now more vulnerable and give great slowdown for later. its a risky tradeoff you take to help your buddy out. But not in endgame! Simple spend the measly 20s to 99 the gate then rush over to take as many hits as possible. They are not going down before they reach the gate. One hit guarantees 25s of distance before they can m1. Granted thats a 4.6 m1 based calculation, but it holds true. Not every single killer can use their power on every single loop. Even wesker can easily be dodged by just running behind stuff at long range. and since 25/4 is 100... if their healthy at the start of the chase then if the gates within 100m they escape. Throw in protection hits and adrenalines and MFT+hopes and its just unwinnable
- MFT HOPE. THIS COMBO IS JUST NOT FAIR. Nobody with these two perks is dying in endgame. Sure with other survivors there was a chance at the very least, you could severely outplay and get an early down etc. MFT hope just guarantees that if you are alive when the gens pop, you are escaping. Adrenaline shares this issue a tiny bit... but adrenaline pops once and thats it. a big chase extender, even better if you are injured etc. But thats it, the effects over. MFT hope guarantees you just win the entire game in endgame. As if MFT didnt do enough of that.
Theres a reason killers love NWO and NOED so much. They are the only things making it possible to comeback in endgame. Any hook you get in endgame thats not a kill is worthless. If theres 2 others they all escape. If theres one, you get your 3k by camping etc. But even thats only IF you can catch them. Horrendous map RNG, mft hope, protection hits, 99ed gates, basekit bt and many more make doing just that extremely difficult.
Why do survivors get hatch and 4% for clutch mechanics when their being stomped but killers have nothing? Thats not rhetorical its actually kind of confusing. Pretty much everything about killer falls apart in endgame. Pressure? useless. Hooks? near pointless unless you already have a 2k. Chasing? near impossible thanks to a certain combo. etc etc the list goes on. the game breaks down in endgame.
Endgame is just there to give a final chance before you lose as Killer. In my eyes, the Survivors popping all the gens have already won if I haven't gotten even a single kill by then. If I have gotten a kill, then I can easily slug one and snowball a 2nd down into a minimum 3k, assuming I have any skill.
If the Survivors equal you in skill win if you play 'fair' - Then it sounds like as long as Killer is better they win, and Survivors are better they win. Arguably if someone ever didn't 'play fair', then they previously artificially inflated their MMR to Survivors outside their skill instead. That means that person needs to lose sufficient matches to the point they actually face Survivors of their 'played fair' skill level, instead of the 'unfair' inflated MMR level. With the MMR designed to keep you in 'top-MMR' once reached, it would cause a facecamping Bubba to reach 'top-MMR', then never leave, and lose far more matches than they won (over time). (Also 'top-MMR' is roughly the top 25% of the playerbase, so huge skill variance, as I think that is equivalent to Gold and above in League of Legends. Imagine the best Gold player against the worst Challenger player. Anyone complaining, if Gold equivalent, is fair to complain when going against Challenger or even Diamond equivalent players.)
Camping/Tunneling not working - So let me get this straight, the low skill high reward strategies are now yielding low rewards to match? Weird, that's almost like how risk/reward ratios should be normally.
Hatch/4% - Maybe because the kill rates are designed around an average of 60%, which means Killers win more than they lose. Survivors need these mechanics that don't even count towards a win MMR-wise, just to help deflate the kill stats. More accurately though, if you know you have 0 chance of surviving, it would cause you hide for even longer. You would tap a gen and hide, hoping you can make more progress than the Killer can remove. It ends matches for Killer that would otherwise be artificially drawn out. This is a favor for Killers, as the game, once long won before, will actually end. Also if you legit think a 4% kobe is causing more wins for Survivors than losses, I don't think you understand math. With 3 kobe attempts (even if we add them to get a slightly higher number for Survivor, technically you multiply it .96^3) you get 12% off hook. That means 88% of the time, the Killer got a free hook state, and the time on hook is ticking against their final hook state.
While true, I'd expand it to ALL players. The second anything is slightly X-favored, we get posts about it.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3487174#Comment_3487174
Already addressed that, you might wanna scroll down a bit.
But, as a refresher: The most egregious form of tunnelling that existed in the game, being downed as soon as your feet touched the ground from an unhook, was completely removed. In addition, you have a speed boost during the ten seconds of Endurance, so while you're running and while the killer is waiting it out, you get further and have a higher chance of reaching a pallet or window than you would have otherwise. These are, undeniably, nerfs to tunnelling.
In addition, there's stuff like enabling stealth-focused anti-tunnel via OTR, and Borrowed Time being buffed. These are less impactful, but still worth mentioning.
Literally the only thing that got any worse wrt tunnelling in 6.1.0 was DS getting its timer nerfed, and I'm in favour of reverting that specific change. As I already laid out, though, that doesn't outweigh the noticeable nerfs to the most egregious forms of tunnelling. As I said earlier, barring some specific killer interactions, if you're being tunnelled now you actually have agency in it, unlike before.
TL;DR, the only way you could possibly come to the ludicrous position that tunnelling got buffed in 6.1.0 is to not remember just how bad tunnelling used to be.
I didn't catch the original reply to someone else, so that's fair.
I checked the other reply, and that didn't address my comment about BT being 'basekit' already because everyone knew to bring it, nor did this quoted reply to me. The only fair argument I've seen is "Survivor's got 3 perk slots instead of 4", which I mentioned in my post that you didn't address. Also I would argue new BT isn't strictly better because the most egregious turbo tunnelers can still hit a Survivor with little to no difficulty even with 10% haste. But there is a fair argument to be made against 'bog standard M1 Killers' tunneling and BT buffing greatly against them.
Now if you are using the version of BT prior to 4.7.0, which only worked with the Killer's TR, then yes 4.7.0 'fixed' BT. I'm however talking about 6.1.0 specifically changing most things for the worse (although the basekit T1 Brutal and STBFL I think are fair buffs since it mostly helps 'bog standard M1 Killers', but not 90s gens without 65s or longer hook stages, as that buffed camping).
I disagree with the notion of having more agency when tunneled now. 'Basekit' BT gave Endurance for 12s, or (4*12) 48 normal meters, whereas truly basekit BT gives Endurance and Haste for 10% and 10s, or (4.4*10) 44 normal meters. That is less distance with less anti-tunnel capabilities to stack with it as well. The only change I think would be needed is anti-tunnel Endurance not Deep-Wounding Survivors. If they can stack that many forms of Endurance that are lost on doing a single CA, let them, just also remove collision during anti-tunnel Endurance so they can't bodyblock. I don't think any form of anti-tunnel Endurance has significant value while it can't be activated while Deep Wounded by any means (particularly the Pinhead add-on and Legion, for the worst of examples). It's easy to chase and hook anyone else, and with a hook rescuer there has to be someone else to chase. Heck, I'd even be fine with removing basekit BT/OTR on kobes if that was the case (maybe not removing it from Deliverance/Slippery Meat though, argument to be made).
TL:DR 6.1.0 buffed tunneling on average, as pre-6.1.0 it was 0-4 layers (realistically 1-4 as everyone would at least bring BT, if nothing else), and post-6.1.0 it is 1 and only 1. There is an argument to be made for in comparison to much further in the past (which is not what I'm arguing against), but when limiting the discussion to 6.1.0's changes, tunneling was buffed.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3487119#Comment_3487119
Because when I think about killers I prefer to think about basic killers, or their add-ons.
Not everyone has all perks, not everyone can use green+ add-ons each game.
Having playable killer should not depend on addon/perk.
You are the one who brought add-ons into this. Like iridescent addon is going to save the day.
So why shouldn't I? Mirror Myers is actually unplayable against MFT. But Myers need rework anyway imo.
Knight has basically 3 good add-ons. Faster path, bigger detection and longer guard chase. Rest is kinda bad. Good thing is they are yellow/brown so you can actually bring those most of your games.
Sure I wouldn't have that big issue if it was only 3%, but it's not. That's why it's not even close comparable with SB as a perk. Fact that you can even compare just movement speed effect with best exhaustion perk kinda proves it's busted, because you have synergies and endurance effect on top of it.
Everyone has access to Fearmonger, as it Mindbreaker swapped to it when the Stranger Things perks became general perks. If you think the Survivors are all bringing the newest expansion perk, and the Killer doesn't have access to a general perk, you are complaining about matchmaking, not the perks.
As for middle of the road Killers, they start to learn some of the basics of selecting perks. Maybe they go multiple slowdown, maybe they try to balance Intel/Lethality/Slowdown, but they pick what they find makes their strengths stronger, or the weaknesses less vulnerable.
You keep talking about stuff I already addressed, so I don't think you are actually reading what I write. Best I can tell you are trying to reply spam me into submission, instead of engage in a conversation. So you win I guess. If you want to not skip over things I say or already said, then maybe I'll bother responding to you in the future.
Edit: It deleted the quote for some reason.
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@TeleportingTurkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3487161#Comment_3487161
MfT is stronger than sprint burst when it comes to killers who are affected by MfT. Not to mention they do 2 entirely different things.
Which I already mentioned, Doc and Knight. I also already mentioned a general perk available to everyone, Fearmonger, which hard shuts MfT down if paralyzed in fear of it.
They do the same thing in different ways, disincentivize chase. Sprint Burst can make the start of a chase in a safe area or allows for going to a different loop if 99'd, and MfT just makes Killer mistakes sting harsher. If the Killer doesn't make mistakes, there is no benefit in MfT. Even mathematically Sprint Burst gives 6 meters of distance, but MfT only gives .12 m/s. That means it takes 50 seconds for MfT to yield more value than SB. Heck, it takes 35s to reach Bloodlust 3, so if a Killer reaches Bloodlust 3 and can't hit them for 15s, unironic skill dif git gud.
To be fair that is comparing the speed functions of both. I don't think the endurance effect should be on MfT, and it should be moved over to Buckle Up or any other underperforming perk.
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@jesterkind said:
I mean... they have? They nerfed it a year ago, in 6.1.0. They also did add OTR as another viable anti-tunnel perk, as well as buffing Borrowed Time relative to where it was before.
It may still be bad, but back when you could be hit the second your feet touched the ground from an unhook, it was noticeably worse. Progress has been made, albeit slowly.
That being said, reverting DS' stun time would be a great change to help that along.
I'm sorry you must be confused, they buffed Tunneling in 6.1.0. Every Survivor knew to bring BT anyways, so it might as well have been basekit (to be fair along with 3 Survivor perks instead of 4 as a result). Before 6.1.0 you could have 2/3 powerful layers of actual protection against Tunneling, as you had BT, then DH, then DS (or the last 2 swapped in order). Heck, even on occasion you could use a Styptic or Syringe after DS and get a 4th layer. Now DS is a joke unless only used to reset Deep Wound, so you have 1 realistic layer, because if the Killer has functioning ears they know whether to hit you off hook (OTR) or wait 10.00001s (basekit BT). The only anti-tunnel perk doesn't work with the other anti-tunnel feature. You can't even DH after hook anymore because it also uses Endurance, which idiotically doesn't work when Deep Wounded due to meme YT vids during that PTB. So 6.1.0 hard buffed tunneling, it didn't nerf it.
So Pre 6.1.0, you could have 0-4 layers of anti-tunnel chase delay. Post 6.1.0, you can have 1, and only 1. An average of 2.5 is more than an average of 1.
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@TeleportingTurkey said:
I`m genuinely curious. Like, why do some people are genuinely ready to die on a hill that MfT is okay and shouldn't be reworked (not even nerfed)?
This perk doesn't help against actually meta killers. Knight isn't meta. Neither is Doctor nor Singularity.
It doesn't have any flashy cool moments where its value is apparent like with dead soft or adrenaline which makes it fun at least for the person using it.
It's not an entire character whose nerf means your precious skins and prestiges get invalidated which makes fanatical and absurd defence kinda understandable.
So why? What are the reasons? You're so shaky for that 1(3) Gabriel Soma prestiges and 5$ / 9000 cells you spent to get him for that perk? Or what? Or just spiteful? Or really crave any possible advantage? Why are you fighting this battle? What's the point?
Like, it's just a speed boost that makes your character simply stronger at chases. It doesn't give you any new abilities, it's just a plain powerboost that most killers aren't designed around. The only reason it is fun is if you have "I win therefore I`m having fun" mentality that disregards anything except the "You win" sign at the end of the match as a source of fun, no matter the cost.
Nicolas Cage comes out next week, plz buy him and replace that disgusting pile of code that is called a perk by mistake with Dramaturgy, thanks.
MfT is inferior to Sprint Burst, and Sprint Burst is perfectly fine. I consistently win my Killer matches with no problem. People complaining about MfT are the same people who blame their losses on anything but themselves. They lose, see a perk, blame the perk, instead of recording and watching back the match and seeing all the mistakes they made that led to their loss. I used to be that foolish child. I played Halo 2 with my friends, and if I lost to something I tried to get it banned in our friend group (generally with much success sadly). None of the stuff I wanted banned was busted in the slightest, I just lost to it without figuring out why, and didn't want to lose more. Exact same problem I have seen with most MfT complainers.
I will certainly be swayed if I see all normal loops ran and where the individual loop breakeven points make it consistently 1 vault normal compared to 3 MfT or some such, but I haven't seen that yet. I main Killer, but I play both sides to figure out counters to things. If I play enough of a Killer, I will find Survivors who can outplay me, which I can then use those same strategies as Survivor. Then when a Killer counters those strategies, I know how to deal with the Survivors when I play that Killer again. In both my matches as Survivor and as Killer, I have found no greater value in MfT than Sprint Burst with the exception of Knight and Doc. I'm not gunna complain about a perk that only counters 2 Killers, and not that well mind you. Fearmonger is still a general perk available to everyone. What are they gunna do, never touch a gen? Well then they are never trying to win.
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@PotatoPotahto said:
I faced it and I did some math.
Survivor is moving with 110% speed.
Average killer moves at 115% speed.
If a wounded survivor starts running from 10 meter distance from killer, he can cover approximately 220 meters (not counting lunge distance), before killer catches up to him. That's more than length of Mother's Dwelling length from side to side.
And that's not even counting possible speed boost from hit.
So, if you are playing a killer with no ability to attack at range or speed up, you can get an invulnerable survivor in the endgame who doesn't even need to make any input except running in a straight line.
I don't think this is fair and should proceed to exist.
Haste bonuses should not stack.
If the Survs spend the first 95% of the game with only 3 perks, and can't utilize Adrenaline for a 4 man heal in endgame, I'm happy. Heck, you can even deny them Hope by just killing them before they can even reach endgame. The majority of my games are won by the time I reach 1-2 gens. If I bring 3 gen Slowdown it adds a gen, and if I bring a sweatlord Killer it adds a gen or two.
If you have trouble consistently winning against soloq Survivors, then I'd recommend intentionally going for 2 hooks each Surv before attempting to kill any Survivor. You will lose games to the point that you will instead consistently win them. Then once you consistently win, you will have learned enough to fight better and better opponents.
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@LapisInfernalis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3483631#Comment_3483631
Thanks for your reply.
I also thought about removing the killer instinct after unhook when spraying, but I thought it to be too much. Your idea about making it cause no killer instinct as long as you don't do anything seems fair.
I think Blight is OK without the busted addons and maybe without Hug-tech as this enables him to get crazy hits. But I really think that an addon pass would be a sufficient step for now. Imagine him getting Billy treatment. That would be so bad.
I think Wesker and Oni are both strong but not too strong. Sure Wesker has a huge basekit but so has SM: Undetectable, pinpoint info, speed, slowdown, insta-down, stall with 3-gen setup... Or Freddy just as he got reworked (back then people were saying that he can do everything): teleport, slowdown, chase, stealth and anti BT.
So I don't think Wesker can do too much.
Blight - I think Blight could survive a Billy level add-on pass, even his basekit is so ridiculously stacked its kinda insane.
Freddy - I'm not sure which rework you are talking about because he's probably had the most out of all Killers. Back when Ruin+Undying gave like 2-4 totems you needed to cleanse Freddy was definitely too powerful in terms of slowdown. Swing Chains was a Thana-like add-on for dream world Survivors (that could also stack with Thana as well), and Outdoor rope/Jump Rope was like an extra stack or two respectively, it was so stupid. It was almost like you had 10 gens to complete if you went against him as Survivor, that was definitely a dark time.
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@RubberBrain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3485576#Comment_3485576
(I this way of answering, thank you)
Reveal Penalty - I would love to see a good reveal penalty however more often then not it would probably be implemented in a way where it would bully newer survivors and more experienced survivors will have no issue at all. Also with this your power would be in the hands of the survivors and if they outplay it you have no difference. I like the idea of a boost when stalking because you are also in more control of when you activate it, I believe it could also add more to learn with Ghostface which is always welcome in my eyes.
Jolt Response - Yea that’s all fair, for me for some reason the range feels longer then it used to be and only time I don’t get any value is when they go edge map, but overall Pain Res is definitely much better and there are much more fun perks to have then a gen slowdown perks
Stealth - I do the same thing with his stealth and it’s always nice to sneak up and scare survivors however again I don’t think giving him a small buff such as making one of his addons basekit (preferably the speed one as I keep saying for me 🙏) would make him overpowered and there are too many uses for too many do them and I don’t feel like typing everything again or writing a bunch of the things I didn’t type.
Reveal Penalty in the hands of the Survivors - See I don't quite agree. In this hindered theoretical, if they reveal you they get hindered, and if they don't then you can stalk and mark/99 them. That seems like a win-win to me. Hindered is mutually exclusive to the Marked condition, so even with newer Survivors they at least get 2 hits still in bad cases. New Survivors would already be marked and 1-hit down, so a 2nd hit gives them a far greater chance.
Stealth response/other buff - I'd almost prefer the buff be on when you down a marked Survivor, rather than helping you down someone you marked. In my experience against bad Ghostfaces, if they pop the mark early, they tend to overcommit in chase. Any Survivor worth their salt can essentially burn through every pallet for a minute in order to stop a down. That being said though, I really like Oblivious when marked add-on just because even if my Shroud isn't up, they don't know if I'm about to jump them after I leave them. That permanent paranoia is so fun to inflict. Looking at his other add-ons, I don't find any value from 3s reveal on downed/hooked outside of camping, but that shouldn't be incentivized. I'd much rather a new add-on or two in their place.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3486009#Comment_3486009
Personally I would lump Trickster in the Knight and Hag's camp of nothing of value being lost
That shoe addon from Hag is hard meme. It's not good and you basically play completely different killer. It's also iridescent, so good luck.
Except Trickster, who is completely screwed without that add-on, all those add-ons you mentioned are quite bad.
Knights addon is not completely bad, but it's not optimal and it's purple.
Btw if you want to consider add-ons, then we can talk about Mirror Myers...
You can't just take a quote out of context, especially when the next thought within the same paragraph was "That isn't even going into add-ons so I'll check the 'countered' Killer's add-ons now." That is why I said what you did was being disingenuous. You didn't even have to change paragraphs for me to explore what they had access to, in order to deal with issues.
Hag shoe - Fair enough, on it being a meme. However, if you want to discount Hag shoe for being a meme, then why bring up T1 Myers? That is a far larger meme than Hag shoe. That is unless you were talking about perma-T2 Myers, which I don't consider a meme barring bad Myers maps (Autohaven and other open maps).
Knight - Purple in terms of rarity is fair, but not optimal? I'm sorry but what other add-ons does Knight have going for him other than Map of the Realm, and maybe Dried Horsemeat? Again the idea is everyone else goes down no problem, it's just MfT allegedly destroying him, so the purple hard counters that.
As far as MfT I 100% think the Endurance part should be removed, or even better put onto Buckle Up or some other underperforming perk. I just don't find the 3% haste an issue with the (your estimate of 35s) breakeven against SB, showing SB as near strictly better. Every Killer can know if the Surv got value with MfT based on if the Killer reached Bloodlust 3.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3486035#Comment_3486035
they usually do not increase m/s of killers charging power. they decrease charge time so your slowed for less amount of time. for example billy's chainsaw or pig ambush dash have those types of add-on's to get slowed for less time.
Yeah, that was what I was saying, my original suggestion reduced the slowdown itself instead of the time spent slow. That's why if they reversed the old electrode charge time penalties into a charge speed increase that would serve the desired goal in a better manner.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
iri king used to apply exhaustion in the past. there used to be 5th affliction for doctor which was called obedience add-on. it was an add-on that made his skill-checks have reverse effect and it applied exhaustion.
Interesting, it also looks like the shock range add-ons also had charge speed penalty, which in effect would also increase the speed penalty in a different way. Maybe they should just reverse the charge speed penalty into a boost on those add-ons instead of my speed adjustments, but I think Restrain should absorb the exhaustion effect and longer aura still. The scream on Madness tier up already essentially reveals them for nearly the 3s, so it only really gets value if combined with Lethal at the moment.
If they reversed the old charge speed penalties into boosts, the speed numbers would be the following over 1 second: Live 3.84m/s, Mouldy Electrode 5% 3.878m/s, Polished Electrode 10% 3.916m/s, High Stimulus Electrode 15% (Or T1+T2) 3.954m/s, T1+T3 20% 3.992m/s, and T2+T3 4.03m/s. (This simplified calculation above is based around reaching 3.08 at half charge, but technically is slopes downward. So I used half the charge time at 4.6 and half the charge time at 3.08, with the spare time back up at 4.6)
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3485971#Comment_3485971
So summary :
there are some killers hard countered by MFT, but I don't like them, so I don't care...
Incorrect. The 4 Killers that might actually be countered by MfT each have an add-on to counter/manage it other than Doctor (although Trickster was the weakest). Therefore I thought of ways to buff Doctor. No need to be so disingenuous.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3485782#Comment_3485782
Bloodlust will also work against SB.
If anything bloodlust is stronger against SB than MFT. Simply because difference between movement speed is bigger.
I can agree SB is better single perk, but it's not better overall. MFT has really good synergies with other perks. Resilience, Iron Will, Dead Hard.
Not all gens are in deadzone, many gens have window nearby, you can also get SB effect by simple prerun when killer gets nearby.
SB makes you feel safer in deadzone, MFT will make you feel safer while injured.
Bloodlust against SB - Yes, killing Survivors also makes them unable to run /s. The point was you said the SB/MfT breakeven point where MfT is better was 35s. You can basically know in a M1 chase with the Bloodlust mechanics whether or not SB or MfT was better based on the Bloodlust level reached. If you reached T3, MfT helped. If you reached less than that, the Survivor would have been better served by SB.
Non deadzone gens with windows - That also doesn't stop the Killer from approaching the gen from an angle perpendicular to the window, such that vaulting the window keeps you the same distance from the Killer (--W--- K [like such]). SB still allows for reaching safety, even if the Killer has better positioning from the onset. Also again if we have this fantasy world where every MfT gamer is running on entering TR, then the gen slowdown that perk is granting is far more value for the Killer than the chase lengthening is granting value for the Survivor.
Combo Perk - Resilience doesn't have an exhaustion pre-req, so anyone can stack it. Iron Will and Dead Hard are fair arguments though. Personally I find DH to be vastly overrated, although there is a fair argument to be made with a MfT double-dip. Honestly I feel triple/quadruple-dipping in 1 facet on either side with perks is only good for meme builds, such as all auras Huntress/Nurse. Opportunity cost is the largest factor. But for sake of argument I'll give MfT+DH and explore it below.
Assuming the Killer didn't bring Fearmonger (which I consider a must have if this paralyzed in fear of a MfT+DH wombo combo), I think most Killers still have little problem. All hyper-mobility attacks and top tier Killers already have no problem with that, so that rules out Nurse/Blight/Spirit/Oni/Wesker/Twins(Victor)/Demo(shredding). Pyramid Head, Artist, and Nemesis force hits at windows and pallets by zoning and not using power if bad for them. Deathslinger and Legion apply Deep Wound against healthy Survs if needed to counter DH, and Deathslinger's power hits counter DH anyways. Instadown Killers bypass the injured state so Bubba/Ghostface/Billy/Myers all don't care. Pinhead chains prevent both DH and MfT. I haven't noticed with Clown, but I believe Purple bottles still force medium vaults, even with MfT's haste (which is where most hits are gained) and Freddy's Hindered is also in Clown's boat. Wraith can both hit and run and intercept non Sprint speed Survivors before they reach the window or pallet to bodyblock them for a free hit typically. Most of the other M1 Killers such as Pig/Sadako/Dredge have stealth to edge out easier hits. Trapper has traps, although you aren't forced to kick god pallets and can trap it instead. So I guess the only Killer that doesn't get anything is Trickster.
Personally I would lump Trickster in the Knight and Hag's camp of nothing of value being lost, but that does bump the numbers from 3 to 4 Killers who can't meaningfully deal with MfT+DH (3/4 are not generally enjoyable Killers to deal with though). That isn't even going into add-ons so I'll check the 'countered' Killer's add-ons now. Hilariously enough, 7.1.0 Battle Hag Shoe will counter MfT almost perfectly (4.73-4.12 puts her net +.61 at or 14.8% faster than MfT compared to the normal 4.6 vs 4.0 15% faster). Blacksmith's Hammer For Knight actually hard counters the combo, as you let them outrun your guard and they are exhausted and 3% hindered for 15s, otherwise they have to burn DH on the guard early. The best Trickster has is 2.5% (or 3.5% with 2 add-ons) haste when throwing knives, which doesn't quite match MfT's haste, or the reduced effectiveness, since it is only adding to the sub 4.0 knife throw speeds. Doc is the only one to not even get anything in the realm, as there is no reduced slowdown on shock add-on or exhaustion add-on for him, again an outdated Killer in need of QoL love.
All in all including add-ons, skilled Killers all have the tools to deal with MfT+DH, with the sole exception of Doctor. With that I would suggest the following for Doctor's add-ons. Restraint class add-ons not only aura reveal on Madness tier-ups, but also exhaust for the same or double duration (1/2/3s or 2/4/6s). Calm and Order have both the big blast effects moved onto one of the add-ons, and the other one reduces the speed penalty for both types of shocking, similar to Trickster's Knife throw speed add-on. Alternatively they could have each get a speed boost to one type of shocking, one for the big blast, the other for Shock Therapy.
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@jesterkind said:
What would you propose replace it? Killing survivors is an extremely integral part of Dead By Daylight, it's been the killer's goal and win condition since day one. I'd struggle to even conceptualise of a version of this game that isn't based on killing survivors.
I've always like the idea of a Star Fox 64 styled 'Mission Complete' vs 'MISSION ACCOMPLISHED'.
If you get 8 hooks without killing a Survivor, you unlock basekit Moris. Killers who want to showcase greater skill can show 3/4 Mori kills on the end screen without the offering or perks to grant it. It is entirely optional, but softly encourages spreading the pressure. The Killer knows they could have just won normally, but they wanted the greater glory of Mori kills, so losses hit less harshly. These basekit Moris also grant an untyped BP bonus.
Similarly I'd want an equivalent cleanse/boon 5 totem + open 3 chests thing for Survivors during endgame, and the Killer chest offering would instead add chests AND the chests required for the super victory, but the chests added only have 'junk'. 'Junk' is a brown rarity item that literally does nothing. Hoarder chests also have junk, and add to this super victory number of chests required. Basement can never have junk in it though. After Survivors complete the side objectives, maybe it unlocks a White Glyph for them basekit, which also grants an untyped BP bonus same as for Killer's side objective of basekit Moris.
Both sides would have a 'super victory', and it would force them to stay longer in the (won) match and risk further Killer/Survivor interactions. Since we currently only worry about Kill/Escape, both sides have no incentive to NOT speedrun that. Hopefully this would keep people around except when they have dailies and the like to escape as a certain Survivor or get X Sacrifices as a certain Killer. I also like the idea of the Killer camping basement against 4 White Glyph attempters all at death hook, so does one of them let the Killer Mori them so the others can rush the White Glyph?
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Sloppy, A Nurse's Calling, STBFL or Bamboozle, Deathbound or Hex: Face the Darkness, all on Sadako while NOT going for condemns (AKA no Iri Tape/Ring Drawing). Intentionally hit a bunch of people early, and it basically tests whether they have heal perks or not. If they don't, they lose, if they do, they stand a fighting chance. If you bring Face the Darkness, you wanna leave the first person after you injure them, and find someone else to chase afterwards.
Edit: This was my adaptation from a soloq Sadako GOD I faced. Her map awareness was unmatched, and Nurse's allowed her to soft check areas before committing.
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I'd like it if it set the Killer's ammo/charges to 0 (in most cases, for example not for Pig traps), and also make them unable to recharge/reload or use their power(s) for 5s/gen remaining. That way if you are intentionally tunneling at 1 gen, you can start getting charges back in 5s, but if you tunnel at 5 gens, you need to wait 25s. This wouldn't meaningfully hurt say Legion, but would certainly destroy Nurse, as well as hurt any other Killer with a chase power to cheese a quick down after DS (like Blight, Wesker, Demo, Slinger, Huntress, etc.).
I do think 3s simply isn't enough in the majority of cases, but I'd rather it hurt stronger Killers more than M1 Killers.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3485564#Comment_3485564
Sprint Burst gives you about 150% movement speed for 3 seconds. That's 18 meters while killer can walk too, which is 13,8 meters. So SP gives you from deadzone, but on distance it is only 4,2 meters, which is 7 seconds.
That's why I keep telling you Sprint Burst does different thing than MFT. SB is nowhere near is good at extending chase compare to MFT. SB is best at allowing you start in safe zone, but unless it's instadown killer, I will just get there with injure speed.
That's why I am telling you MFT is closer to Overcome in it's effect, both require to get injured for free distance. MFT is simply way better at it and get secondary effect too for some reason.
Btw for MFT to give you value equal to SB you need 35 seconds chase. You want to tell me, you are not able to last 35 seconds in chase against Legion?
Also big difference is SB is used at start of the chase, where killer is basically free to drop that chase without any time investment. MFT gives passive value in injured state, so killer is more likely to overcommit to your chase.
SB math - In that same scenario MfT is giving 12.36m, compared to SB's 18m and the 4.6 Killer's 13.8m. Plus if the Killer is not chasing you, that already has given you the value needed. If the Killer does continue to chase, SB has a 6m flat reward, and MfT gives .12m/s, or 50s to match Sprint Burst. But I'll use your math of 35s below after a minor side point with Sprint Burst. Typically map resources are limited. The pallet, once dropped, is kicked and destroyed forever. (Theoretically it could be Any Means Necessary'd, but that would require you to not get downed near the pallet.) Sprint Burst can let you remain on a gen (in the case of no Fearmonger) and Sprint away to a further pallet or Window if the Killer tries to swap aggro onto you from the other person in chase (or just patrol your gen), when you otherwise would take a hit. Again, reaching safety helps prevent hits, and if you showed me breakevens on common loops with MfT compared to without MfT, that would help your point. For example I cede the argument that MfT makes shack 'unplayable', and by that I mean a skilled Survivor will always get 3 window vaults with MfT. Against a normal shack chase, it is at least still possible to hit a skilled Survivor before 3 vaults.
35s chase - It currently takes 15s to get Bloodlust 1, 10s (or 25s total) to get Bloodlust 2, and 10 more seconds (or 35s total) to reach Bloodlust 3. Legion can't do anything do drop Bloodlust without accidentally entering power (although Bloodlust also drops if stunned or kicking a pallet). If you are saying a Legion is unable to get a down with friggin 9.9s of Bloodlust 2, you are saying the Legion is so inept they deserve to lose, to which I would agree. We are in the realm of both sides being skilled opponents however. So in that realm, Bloodlust 2 means the Survivor gets hit. In that world, it is mathematically impossible for MfT to ever have more value than Sprint Burst. The only exception is a pallet that is forced to be kicked, such as shack pallet, and many indoor maps have multiple god pallets with no windows. Since the Survivor is forced to drop the pallet, they will quickly burn through the map resources of these god pallets, and subsequent chases will result in quicker downs. Even if relying on medium strength pallets, with Bloodlust 2, the pallet is too weak that even when the pallet is respected, the follow up loop will cause them to be downed. When I check the math on pallet kicks in a 'hold-W' scenario, it takes 15.6s/20.085s to catch up after a pallet kick, normal/MfT timings. (2.34s pallet kick with starting distance of running away during that timeframe with 4.0/4.12 m/s, and the Killer catching back up at .6/.48 m/s.) So in both cases the M1 Killer should at the very least have Bloodlust 1 back up before the Survivor is hit.
So for a pallet overview, Weak pallets like RPD save room under the library, anyone can get a hit on. Medium Strength pallets, like the pallet in RPD library, can be Bloodlust 2'd (dropped or up). God pallets, like on the main stairwell in RPD, must be kicked, but are also permanently deleted once dropped. If you can perfectly chain god pallets you can survive, otherwise the Killer is getting a hit, typically in under 30s. There simply isn't enough time for a skilled M1 Killer to allow for a Survivor to get more value with MfT than Sprint Burst outside of the chained god pallets.
Does Bloodlusting on either side feel good? No. Does going against a good Survivor with MfT feel good? No. But all Killers have a basekit method of dealing with it at the very least, and it can be done typically in under 30s of chase.
Edit: Spelling/Grammar
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I would at least want Medkits to not feel all samey. I think allowing Greens to remove the self-heal speed penalty (for a 16s self heal, the old brown speed) and Purples to remove the self-heal inefficiency penalty with 32 charges (allowing for 2 heals on self and allies basekit, but self still taking 24s) would be good. Just like when they changed hatch and keys, and they made Keys near worthless not worth being in Bloodwebs, similar could be said about the current Medkits rarer than Brown.
I think Self-Care also should be buffed, but I almost want it to still be under 50%, maybe 45% would be fine. That way people know self-healing is less effective, but can still have the option.
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@RubberBrain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3484984#Comment_3484984
If they were to buff him of course I pray to god that they don’t nerf him as well but I do think he needs a buff, I find him to be below average slightly in killer strength and in the grand scheme of things against survivors that is very weak, people like to forgive or give backlash to weaker killers or blight or anything else in the game because of games they win or lose, them winning the game against a blight doesn’t make the game survivor sided, a legion winning a game against a SWF doesn’t make the game killer sided or make legion a strong killer, all those games come down to skill and maybe a bit of luck, however if you were to pair an equally skilled SWF with someone just as skilled with Ghostface then the SWF would probably win under most circumstances. Personally I believe there are still a lot of balance changes they need to go depending on where they go to balance it because personally I see the game as either balanced between two killers and an equally as good SWF or maybe with two killers being slightly stronger then the SWF (Nurse and Blight, Nurse maybe still a lot stronger)
Done talking about balance but I wanted to say that I really like the idea of punishing the survivor for revealing Ghostface. However I do believe it would have too easy of a counter with no enough downsides if you don’t look at him, much like not healing or cleansing against a Legion or plague, Personally I believe it could work however it may just bully newer players wish I’d never what a power should be for.
Well the issue is you have to not look at him, which allows for him to sneak up and mindgame better in chase by taking a weird angle or route. The reveal is almost like the Billy Overheat mechanic in that it builds up and slowly peters out, so they have to let the reveal 'cool-down' and not look for extended durations, or have pixel-perfect camera placement (mid-chase to only look with the corner) that could force them to run into walls or mess up their movement. I already have plenty of fun and success with crouching along medium height loops they can't peek over due to the crouch. This would just let me approach from the wrong side in many loops to success because they don't have a clear camera angle on me at all times.
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3484984#Comment_3484984
that hindered idea is similar to add-on idea that I had where a survivor becomes automatically marked whenever they reveal ghostface. if you pair both add-on, you could expose someone for a weird reverse GF build. That idea might be funny if it was meme bloodpoint add-on that disables stalking.
lose-lose mechanics. lose-lose mechanic are not inherently bad in my opinion. you can have situations where there is lose/lose but what matters is how well you mitigate situations that put you into a lose/lose. a skill-cap of a lose/lose mechanic can be how well you manage to avoid/mitigate the effects of a lose/lose mechanic. I imagine if you gave -15% hindered for 2.5 seconds, inexperienced survivors would reveal at times where they would be punished while experienced survivors would reveal you in places where they will not get punished.
That's why I partially pushed against the 24s->20s CD on his power.
my assumption on the change is to reduce down-time to go into night-shroud after hooking a survivor. The change as side effect avoids those awkward situations where someone is near fully stalk and you can m1 hit the survivor but your power is on cooldown so your just waiting for cooldown to get the expose hit. I agree. I like his state in general even if it is not super strong.
2.5s Hindered - I think the current KI (or the Nic Cage PTB KI time) is 4s, so 4s of 15% is massive, if only usable once. It basically means you need to reveal at dropped pallets, but if they mindgame the kick, then the Survivor gets punished. Again, not sure if the Hindered for the full (4s?) KI timer would be too powerful in practice or what, but it would be neat to try in a PTB at least.
@RubberBrain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3484984#Comment_3484984
I agree with many of your points but with how the game is played you can get only hidden downs, you are not invisible and survivors will see you even if you lean, and if you stalk from far a way then just pre-run, you say sprint burst is the only thing that can really stop that (as well as a really nice window or pallet which could also lead to lithe) but then you mention fearmonger, sprint burst is not an uncommon perk and if you need fearmonger to get downs there’s a problem. Even then I don’t think my suggestion would be that crazy for that playstyle with how some maps and angles are on gens or survivors it could allow to close the gap easier if you mark from far away or if they’re just about to make a pallet
Also as you mentioned there may be one survivor constantly removing your stalk, luckily with GF it shows who removed your power, however in that situation you would need to get into a chase.
Also of course downs equals pressure, there isn’t a person that doesn’t know that, it’s why nurse is so powerful my point is he doesn’t have passive slowdown or movement so he needs to apply pressure with those downs, allowing him to get downs a little bit faster wouldn’t be crazy (along with all the other benefits i mentions and some I didn’t). And no matter what unless you are facing really oblivious survivors you are often going to get in more chasing then your going to get hidden downs and when those chases inevitably happen then you don’t really have a power. And to pile on top of all this something I didn’t even mention is if you face a bully squad; you can’t play your stealth playstyle and you may have three or four all around you taking hits, and such again with only being an M1 killer it makes it much harder to outplay them (I never found problems with bully squads so it may be fine but that’s just something I remembered) But even if you don’t have a problem with something some newer players might, I don’t want this game to continue to be something that you much start off incredible at to play is, and often time it isn’t however because of how their powers very a newer killer may give up while trying a weaker killer, people might use the excuse that he’s paid as to why people won’t play him immediately but people forget he might be the reason people are playing at all, to play as their favorite Licenses. Now I want to say I do not believe Ghostface desperately needs a buff, there are plenty of other issues that deserve more attention such as Twins, Myers, Freddy, the top two killers, and survivors as a whole, I more made this post because Ghostface seems to be a favorite of Behavior (Probably because it’s only partially a license and they have full control over it) and it would still be very nice to get a Ghostface buff as he’s someone who, although not desperately, still probably needs one, so I was just suggestion one he would benefit from without being too crazy
Lastly I wanted to say you said only pain res is a good slowdown perk on Ghostie but I’m just going to defend another perk saying that Jolt is still amazing.
Jolt - I get it, but I have negativity bias where Survivors who are marked tend to run away from the gens. Every time I try to use it I remember the matches with no value. Don't get me wrong, any indoor map its an easy S-tier, but I feel like I don't need any more help as a Stealth Killer on an indoor map. I need help on the big outdoor maps.
Stealth in general - I typically take the time to go super far out of my way to approach from odd angles. Against clueless Survivors you don't need to, but against middle to high skill Survivors it helps a lot. When you go against the god-gamers that know when you step on a twig I just bruteforce the stalk mid-'chase' and save them for when they are forced to act, like rescuing someone on hook. Alternatively I pop it to force them to sit on gens for the next 60s. The vast majority of matches have enough 'weak-links' in comparison that I can still beat most god-tier aware gamers.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3484838#Comment_3484838
I am not saying Thana is bad perk for plague or Legion. I am saying it's not a counter to MFT. It's a slowdown perk.
Do you consider corrupt intervention, or deadlock as counters to MFT? I doubt it.
Sprint Burts have it's own limitation, mainly you have to change your playstyle for it to be effective. Most players can't be bothered doing that. It's why you see so many Lithe players, it's simply easier.
MFT has again different purpose, but it's not hard to use, you just loop as usual, but it's easier / more effective.
Lithe and SB helps you get from deadzone and start chase.
MFT helps you extend chase overall. MFT is basically Overcome on steroids.
Sprint Burst/MfT - You already restricted the discussion to 'Survivors with skill', so in that subset yes Sprint Burst is more powerful. Survivors without skill, to retread on already covered ground, make both MfT not juicy, and walk with Sprint Burst when they shoudn't. You have to include 99'd Sprint Bursts in the discussion if you also allege all these Survivors are god loopers that win every 50/50 mindgame, especially due to MfT. Yes, its fair to say Sprint Burst gets 1 big use, and MfT gets multiple chances at value, but my argument is the multiple MfT chances sum up to less total value than the 1 big use of Sprint Burst in ~90% of cases. Even before MfT came out, as long as you were a variety Killer, you would know how to take 4.4 basic loops from playing Huntress/Slinger/Spirit/more. MfT effectively makes 4.6 into 4.48, so it makes you a 4.4 Killer with extra wiggle room. It makes sense if basically all the complaints are coming from 1-tricks who haven't learned other Killers of the game. Plus that also is entirely discounting power use and bloodlusting.
Thana - I can't tell if you are ignoring what I'm writing about Thana, or I'm not explaining it right. Lets ignore that and stop talking about it.
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Ghostface requires too much mental processing power to be successful for most people. Wraith is very simple, quick, and easy to utilize. If I recall Hens showcased a Wraith main who didn't play comp that could even stand a chance against comp SWFs (winning 2/3 matches) without camping or tunneling, and arguably with camping/tunneling he might have won the 3rd game as well.
@ReverseVelocity said:
Wraith is better, and it's really no contest. His stealth is more consistent, he has good mobility and hit and run, as well as the post-uncloak speed boost which is useful at some pallets. He can also use his cloaked speed to cut off Survivors from Windows or Pallets.
Ghostface doesn't really have any chase power or mobility, just the ability to instadown sometimes. He is a fun killer to play but he's really not all that good in the grand scheme of things. Plus he has to deal with Reveal and Stalk jank.
The only jank aspects Ghosty has to deal with is 200+ ping Survivors revealing him, kind of like the opposite of Huntress hitting people through walls/around corners hurting the Killer now. The other jank aspect is how he was designed with client sided leaning, and when they swapped to servers the lean function checks with the server before allowing it. Just swap lean to client sided and that fixes most of his jank. Stalking is clean and effective when you play him enough to understand the stalk logic, similar to Singularity pod infection. If you play either, then you get a good transferable skill in dealing with the other.
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I'd make the argument that all map offerings and the Sacrificial Ward should be rolled into 1 offering, as the lone map offering. You get a selection menu that uses the icon of the current map offerings or Sac-Ward, and you pick which map or no forced map to play on when equipping the offering (defaults to Sacrificial Ward if nothing is selected or selected in time). That way map offerings are much rarer, with only 1 map offering existing to compete in future bloodwebs, but it is a universal map offering, so the old Lery's offerings on Huntress are now playable. Current map offerings are summed together and put onto the new offering.
@Nazzzak said:
You'd break every Myers and GFs heart if they couldn't play on Lerys
Honestly I hate Lerys as Ghostface. You can't stalk at long ranges without the Survivors knowing you stalked them. Yeah you still win as Ghosty plenty on the map, you win as all Killers often on that map, but it just isn't fun to rewatch the streamer VODs and seeing they always knew when they were 99'd. Seeing people go 'when did he stalk me?!?!?' is the greatest feeling of success.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3484794#Comment_3484794
the greatest weakness for Ghostface is the same as Trapper and Hag, which is the lowest hook Survivor stalking the Killer and deleting their power. If Trapper/Hag has no traps, and Ghostface has nobody 99'd, they swiftly (or sometimes slowly) lose. Allowing for the Survivors to 'bully' you out of power is the worst thing.
when that occurs. that is very annoying. those are definitely the less fun matches for GF. what would help there is some chasing power. there is no fear factor in bullying m1 killers.
Most people crutch on multiple slowdowns as Killer in order to slow games down enough to win, but that backfires and hurts Ghostface.
information is super important for ghostface because it lets you plan your attack. I personally use BBQ and flood of rage. a long time ago, I used to gearhead just to see yellow gens.
Ghostface IS his power, with M1 framework to help, not M1 framework with his power to help.
I think most killers play him like an m1 killer with his power as side effect. a change that would help for people that play ghost like that is for m1 attacks to not reset stalk meter. stealth killer are ultimately not that rewarding in dbd. as a result, the idea of putting effort into a killer that is not very strong. The result is that killers take the lazy route.
Reveal bullied - I understand wanting to get a chase mechanic for him, but I almost think a reveal revenge mechanic might fix this in a 2 birds 1 stone type of way. They already have some (mediocre) add-ons to do this (10s exhausted), but maybe a basekit Clown strength hindered for the Killer Instinct duration (or the pre-buffed 2s, with the Killer instinct duration add-on increasing this hindered duration instead of both) would be all right. This could also function as a chase mechanic to disincentivize looking back in chase for too long at the risk of being hindered. Also an important mechanical factor is you can't reveal Ghosty while marked (barring laggy frame-perfect reveal+mark timings), so he wouldn't be able to double-dip and have you both exposed AND hindered, at least with his power. Thematically it could be the Survivor scared they ticked Ghosty off, as honestly his annoyed sighs like when pallet stunned are some of my favorite aesthetic aspects to him. It's just so unnerving that you stun this normal sized dude, and he isn't hurt or put into a blind rage like Huntress, he is just like "ugh, now ... you're dead". The main reason this could be bad though, is lower skill brackets might find the lose-lose nature of it unfun. However we already have lose-lose mechanics with Deathslinger and Pyramid Head holding power at loops to zone, or Artist existing at all, so I don't feel like this is a new type of unfun scenario, as the counter is not looking at him for too long, almost Slenderman like. Heck, the 'don't look at the Killer' as a mechanic was already asked for, so maybe this could be how it's implemented.
Info - Yeah I love Floods because everyone expects Pain Res, but they all too often forget about Floods revealing them. On nearly every Killer I love pairing the 2. I only am not using Floods for the most part right now, because I have Iri cam to essentially do its job in place of it, so I put on Gift of Pain for the lose-lose of instadown without stalk due to injured, or slowed gens and I can still mark and instadown you.
Not reset stalk on hit - I'm not sure about this being a buff on the high skilled end. I like the idea of counterplay, and the main time people are able to take an unmarked hit is while a Survivor is carried. If you take an hit while carried that just means you're injured near the hook, so he can either take a quick chase with the partial value of a proxy camp (followed by the potential of a popped 99 on the other would be rescuer), or you can follow up on the injured Surv later from stealth unless they get healed. Even then, them getting healed feels like it helps you in terms of slowdown (usually 32 gen seconds, 16s from 2 survs) and injured perk denial (Resil for gens, MfT, DH), and you can easily re-mark them. Overall I think this would be a nerf to Ghosty rather than a buff, at least in my games.
Overall I personally really like where Ghostface is right now, and I just don't want to see him buffed to the point they nerf things about him that don't need to be nerfed. That's why I partially pushed against the 24s->20s CD on his power. Honestly if they do add the 'reveal revenge' hindered concept, I'd hope they pre-emptively bump his CD back up to 24s to be on the safe side.
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@Uxoxe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3481044#Comment_3481044
I don't see why the Infection isn't cleansed after the survivor is hooked. Easy to program in and there really isn't much point to having a hooked survivor infected anyway.
The slowdown is still nice to have, and keeps him well rounded.
@Shroompy said:
All Wesker needs is his infection to pause after being unhooked until the survivor performs a conspicuous action.
I would go as far to also prevent Killer Instinct from revealing someone who hasn't done a CA. All too many Weskers are empowered to tunnel in going directly back to the person who sprays themself, or got sprayed by a teammate. Heck even if you try to bodyblock for them, he just gets a double injury and deep wound. I think the slam into teammate mechanic is fine, just not the KI on spray post hook and pre-CA.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3484753#Comment_3484753
Thana is simple slowdown that works for two killers.
It's easy for them to get value from it. It works same whenever survivors have MFT or not.
If it is possible for survivors to beat it without MFT, it will be easier with MFT.
Thana doesn't change effectiveness of MFT in any way. With this logic is ruin counter to MFT? Or corrupt, deadlock? No...
Fearmonger is not counter to MFT, that has to be a joke. 5 seconds is nothing, you can lose after first loop while mind gaming.
Killer has 4 perks and you expect to killers bring bad perk to counter a perk few survivors might have. While losing effectiveness in other games. Oh good, I am going to ignore one perk (for few chases) while losing slow down, chase perk or information perk, so I am likely to lose anyway or other games for it. Blood echo is not a good perk, never was.
It is not going to help in first chase and it basically forces you to commit into each chase, otherwise you lost any value from it and have to deal with MFT again.
Thana/bad perk (Blood Echo) on 2 Killers - Which was the exact 2 Killers you listed as getting destroyed by MfT as it is so ridiculously 'broken', and I gave you 2 reasonable counters for them to use with greater efficacy than Fearmonger (and I guess you completely ignored the last sentence and got caught up far too much on the word 'counter' in the case of Thana), heck they even both can stack for added effectiveness. This would be like saying Corrupt Intervention is bad on Trapper. A specific perk pick being more valuable on a specific Killer, my word. (To restate/rephrase the Thana 'counter' argument, if chases are taking 20% longer, and gens are taking 20% longer, the effectiveness of both functions are countering one another from a macro standpoint.)
Fearmonger 5s - If you can't get a down with the Survivor burning 5s walking or taking 10 fast vaults (or any combo thereof) and they won every single mindgame, unironically skill dif git gud, yuh got larger problems than a single perk. If they leave immediately on 32m TR to walk the 5s directly away from you, it still loses them ~6 seconds in chase compared to running immediately. (A theoretical 53.33s insta-run hit versus 47.29166s walk for MfT hit.) Also what Survivor actually instantly walks/runs on TR to the point you can't see them leave and cut them off shortening this time further? Heck in that world I would have 50% slowdown by walking around as Killer on most maps. Whenever that happens I get free hits due to people waiting out the Fearmonger exhaustion more than enough to make up for the times I get less value. It most certainly will help in the first chase, because they only need to tap the gen for a milisecond to get exhausted. If you find a cross-map runner you can get the injury and move on to greener pastures if that paralyzed in fear of MfT.
I still think MfT speed isn't a problem because of the opportunity cost with Sprint Burst. (To be fair, the endurance shouldn't be on the perk, throw it onto Buckle Up or something else and it'd be fine.) You have to give up Sprint Burst essentially to use it, and Sprint Burst is far more valuable than MfT in pretty much all cases other than Knight and Doctor, although I'll take your word for it on Hag as well. So only for less than 10% of killers is MfT better than Sprint Burst. Feel free to complain as a Doc/Knight/Hag main, but thank them for not using SB as everyone else.
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@Darky77 said:
Honestly, this is one of the worst changes that game has had in recent years. I'll try to be as nice as possible, I do appreciate the devs trying, but for real, Dead by Daylight has two VERY distinct levels of players. Try hards that grind hours and hours into finding the best loops, perks, builds and exploits to master every single inch of the game to the point they complain its boring, and casual players that are just trying to have fun.
Nothing against try hards, they can do their own thing, but throwing EVERYONE into one big mixing pot every single month is just making a HUGE toxic environment that honestly makes the game just flat unplayable for a few days or a week each month, that is if you for some reason don't enjoy bully squads and all out sweat fests.
I love this game, I've played it for years, but I'm just not on that try hard level. and I don't think players like me should be forced to deal with their hard and toxic playstyles. Match making is hard to do, but this little change might go a long way towards helping to balance the game.
When the 13th rolls around, dish out rewards but only reset pplayers to level 4 of the tier their in. If they're at Gold 2, you go to Gold 4. If you're at Iridescent 1, you go to Iridescent 4. Easy. If you don't have pips, or if you're at level 4, you go down to level 1 of the previous tier.
That honestly would go so far in keeping things balanced. The try hards can stay in their top tiers, the casual players can hang out in the lower tiers, and it even makes it more possible for lower tier players to learn adn eventually build up to Iridescent tier. You have to earn your way there, but its possible to with enough effort. I've been playing the game since right after Legion was released, and I've NEVER once gotten to Iridescent rank as a survivor, or the equivalent in the old ranking system, and I'm just not motivated to try when it's reset back to zero every month. I'm just not gonna play survivor enough (or good enough) to grind up to Iridescent in a month.
It would be a simple, but very beneficial change to the health of the game. Is it going to completely fix toxic players and unbalanced match making? No. But it's a start and would really incentivize players to try and put in the effort to eventually work their way up the tiers while also keeping the try hards and casuals separate to tone down on Killers getting demolished by bully squads and Survivors being steamrolled by hardcore killer mains.
And it would negate the need to just stop playing the game every 13th. Cause right now it's just plain not fun, unless you're messing around with the bots.
I would make the exact opposite argument. In order to pip, you have to play in a 'fun' or 'fair' manner. Killers have to go for multiple hooks, so camping/tunneling is disincentivized. Survivors have to be chased and heal allies, so hiding and ignoring healing is disincentivized. Both sides are getting their most common complaints addressed by attempting to pip. Survivors genrush? No pip. Killer facecamps? No pip.
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I think Ghostface is somewhat like Nurse in that it requires an entirely different playstyle in order to play the game. People see Ghostface is a 4.6 M1 Killer, instead of seeing that as a tool in his kit. 4.6 is merely there to limit his ability to instadown people. That's why when I see people prioritizing chasing Survivors, I pejoratively call them 'ChaseFaces' instead of Ghostfaces.
The best way I can describe it is DBD as an RTS. Some Killers are more micro, or chase/lethality focused, like Deathslinger forcing different interactions at common loops since he can drag you to the window. Some are more macro, or stealth/map mobility/slowdown/Intel focused, like Pig with stealth and traps for slowdown. Some are both, like Wesker having chase, lethality, map mobility, intel and slowdown. Ghostface too is both Micro and Macro, but he doesn't change how you chase, he has lethality AND stealth. The problem is people treat the Lethality as chase altering, instead of taking advantage of the stealth to combine the strengths.
To an extent he functions similarly to Legion and Plague, in that all the Survivors can be treated as 'injured' or 99'd then mark downed. However, since they are healthy while doing so, they fail to get value from any 'while injured' perks like Resilience or MfT, and also mostly wasted their time healing. It costs you time and effort as Ghostface though to set up multiple stalks, like a farmer, you cultivate your animals for a future slaughter. If they remain injured, you can sneak up from odd angles, and only a Sprint Burst can reasonably save them, making Fearmonger practically a free-win perk against those who stay injured.
Most people crutch on multiple slowdowns as Killer in order to slow games down enough to win, but that backfires and hurts Ghostface. You don't have the map traversal speed to apply gen kick perks multiple times, so Pain Res is basically the only good slowdown. Instead Lethality and Intel serve you far better. Bamboozle helps prevent the rare busted windows from being a problem, although I must admit it is a comfort pick for me to prevent those negative extremes. Lethal Pursuer is arguably the single best perk, as you want people to go on gens so you can stalk them from a distance. Unlike Corrupt, it forces an early chase, which is NOT what you want. Remember, Myers has a distance penalty when stalking but Ghostface doesn't. The further you stalk people from, the better, and don't let them know they are 99'd. Allowing a gen or two to pop in the start is worth it if you get 2 or 3 unknown to them 99's. Then get an instadown, and use your knowledge of how you would play Survivor to cut people off. If you have BBQ or Iri Cam add-on, you can keep track of most players and always be a step or two ahead of them.
I hate to say this, but the greatest weakness for Ghostface is the same as Trapper and Hag, which is the lowest hook Survivor stalking the Killer and deleting their power. If Trapper/Hag has no traps, and Ghostface has nobody 99'd, they swiftly (or sometimes slowly) lose. Allowing for the Survivors to 'bully' you out of power is the worst thing.
By saying 'Ghostface has no pressure' show a lack of understanding that Lethality IS pressure. It is even more powerful pressure when your opponent doesn't know that you are currently lethal to them. The basic pressure formula of a hook being 75% slowdown shows that. (To be clear, by 75% slowdown I am referring to the hooked Survivor unable to progress gens, the rescuer not progressing gens, and if that rescuer gets marked or otherwise harried by a strategic 'chase', then another Survivor has to be the rescuer instead. That leaves for only 1 Survivor to do gens.)
I was against the reduction of his power from 24s to 20s, but only for the higher end match potential (not tournament level highEST end, but normal matchmaking higher end). It might be the kill-rate stat buff needed for lower skill brackets. For a buff to both lower skill and higher skill brackets, maybe part of OP's knife slowdown/intel idea applied to when you hit someone with 50%+stalk (when forced like carried hits). The best buff though, would be making leans be client sided instead of server sided again. He was designed with a client sided lean, and when they swapped to servers that screwed over the lean mechanic that has only partially been addressed. (Heck they even nerfed it so you couldn't toggle crouch without breaking the lean at one point. I don't know if that still is the case only because I have him down to muscle-memory, so I can't actually tell you what inputs I do when playing, just overarching concepts.)
TL:DR Ghostface IS his power, with M1 framework to help, not M1 framework with his power to help.
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@Nazzzak said:
I've said before that we should all have a limited block list - so maybe like 7 block spaces to block 7 people. So that way people aren't blocking willy-nilly, and if they are then theyll have to eventually remove someone from block when they want to block someone new. I have a note in my note app of people I don't want to play with and there's only 2 people on it. But it'd be nice if I could have just blocked them in game, especially since they can just change their username and I'll have no idea.
I agree with this, but I think 7 might be too much in smaller population areas. 5 would probably be fine enough. Also I do the same with avoiding the same Anonymous P13 Feng who killed the entire team in the last soloq match, but we currently don't know who the Killer is. This personal block/ban allows for preventing rematching with a jerk, as opposed to revealing who the Killer player is (and potentially giving away their perks/Killer choice/etc.). I know some people say "then SWF gets 4 times the bans!", but that could be fixed by only using the lobby leader's bans.
@Satelit said:
Overwatch already tried something like this,turns out people just kept avoiding good players and those good players started getting massive queue times.You do NOT ever want to punish people for being good at your game.
Currently they have an "avoid as teammate" option limited to a couple people,DBD shouldn't go further than this either.It also means it would be a system killers can't use.
That shouldn't be a problem if the number is small enough. Even then, the most frequent use is to stop playing with the person who does the equivalent of the schoolground kid saying they are immune to everything. No one wants to play with them, and in real life you can physically avoid those anti-social people/behaviors. Online though, we need these type of protections to ensure people follow basic human decency.
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@Jhei said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3484760#Comment_3484760
What irks me is before they nerfed it into the ground, even the Tier 1 yellow version of Thana gave 3% per stack, meaning two stacks at Thana's worst tier at the worst point in its history before the massive nerf was still better more effective efficiency-wise than 3 stacks of Tier 3 purple Thana today. The worst Tier 3 Thana gave 12% at 3 stacks vs today's 6%
Yeah, the only reason I can fathom for them butchering the perk was internal numbers used by facecampers or something. Old Thana with 1 stack on 90s gens basically bumped them up to 95s gens, and combined with Deadlock and No Way Out, it basically ensured a free 3k from facecamping, or even proxy camping in positions to still prevent rescues like the long legs on Crotus Penn and Groaning Storehouse.
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The problem is the poor design of Skull Merchant. If I take a drone from the third gen in a 3 gen, she can just place her 4th drone back on that third gen, with no delay or penalty. If a tracker from DDR-ing a drone is on a Surv, that drone should leave a ghost drone preventing another one to replace it. That way if I take the aggro to remove a drone from a gen, that gen CANNOT be droned again for that 45s, and the Skull Merchant is incentivized to hunt me down quickly if she wants to replace it. That would cause her to actually go out on the map and not be able to camp indefinitely. This was fine on the original release, because someone with a Tracker could be the designated drone disarmer, as you could disarm drones even while you have a tracker, but with her post-launch (or PTB?) adjustments it empowered camping.
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Thana would much better be served by reverting the nerfs and setting it back to 5% per Surv, or 5/10/15/20 total.
Alternatively if they want to keep the looming threat of more people injured is more deadly, they could change it so the numbers aren't backloaded. The method I suggested when it was first being proposed to be nerfed was each Survivor providing 2% more than the previous Surv, or 2/4/6/8, summing to 2/6/12/20 total. This way it still ends on 20% at 4 injured Survivors, but allows for a smoother transition. Technically this means the perk provides 2/3/4/5% per injured Surv, with each bracket being the amount of Survivors injured. If the problem was perk tiers, it could use this 2/3/4/5 with 1/2/3/4 at tier 1, and 1.5/2.5/3.5/4.5 at tier 2.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3483808#Comment_3483808
Blood echo is simply bad perk. High CD and two requirements for limited effect. When they remove CD, I might consider it.
Thana is not counter to MFT. MFT doesn't require you to stay injured, that may be true only for resilience, but not needed.
Against Legion, just taking Thana is still better than heal tho.
Thing is those builds existed and were used before MFT was a thing. They are not super strong, they are not hard to beat. You just push through, it's not countering chase perks. MFT still does give you that effect.
The hard counter to the allegedly impossible to counter/too powerful perk is there, and 15s downtime is what make it unusably bad? I don't understand what you are complaining about. Its like saying "I want some good ole bird meat" and when the person gives you both Chicken and Turkey you respond, I actually want Ostrich meat. Its the same backwards logic in saying Discordance doesn't counter Prove Thyself when you don't know they are pumping gens. The issue was people remain injured against Plague/Legion. Both perks hard counter/punish that behavior. If they heal into Thana, you get the bonus slowdown, if they remain injured you can get Blood Echo to delete not only MfT, but also all other Exhaustion perks other than basically Nicolas Cage's new exhaustion perk (which requires being healthy).
To think of things a different way, Legion/Plague's power, is to have Survivors always have 1 health state, or heal at the cost of 2-5s injuries (as well as downs with red puke). Getting even a single down and hook provides so much pressure, that the Survivors have a ticking clock or they die. Thana arguably helps camping more (injuring all 4 makes gens take 112.5s instead of 90s), and Fearmonger or Blood Echo help chase more. Even then I would still make the argument that Thana can serve as a counter to MfT. MfT makes chases take longer (but still go down), Thana makes gens take longer (but still get popped), so both side's opponents' main objectives are taking longer as a result. They both are serving effectively the same role, but to be fair using the phrase 'counter' makes it imply it is in direct opposition instead.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3483751#Comment_3483751
Thing is most of these arent bugs, most of these are working just as intended.
Things like trap buffering are a strong tool Survivors have but it requires teamwork and being in the right place at the right time, which in the grand scheme of things promotes healthy gameplay.
Hitboxes, they aren't bugged they just aren't very representative of what you'd think. A Survivors hit box is actually fairly large and this is especially apparent when injured. The hitbox remains the same but a Survivors posture is lower and leans more forward. This makes their hitbox be much further behind them then you'd realize. When you pair that with a "favor the shooter" mechanic, you get dodgy looking hits.
Crouch tech as well is just taking advantage of how they made hitboxes. They do actually work on normal basic attacks as well, the only reason why it doesnt work 99% of the time is because unlike Billy, Blight or Demo's special attacks, your camera isnt locked in place. You can actually get a hit as all of these killers if a survivor tries to hug tech at the very beginning of your attack, as long youre looking down directly at the survivor
Also you say curving is "understanding current hitboxes" when that is literally what Hug Tech is. His collision while rushing works exactly like a basic attack. Try it out for yourself, things you can swing at and whiff despite being right next to it will make you slide right off of it as Blight. The reason why Blight can do it while Billy or Demo cant, is Blight can look up or down to manipulate how he bumps into things, similarly to basic attacks.
Doc's shock not taking priority is intended and works exactly like everything else (well, most) in the game. If an action is already being performed such as a vault or pallet throw, nothing interrupts it. Even the powers that lock the Survivor in a specific animation/stagger them. Such as: A normal basic attack, any special attack, EGC death, Deathslingers harpoon, Pinhead's chains, Pig's RBT, etc.
Nemesis' drag is actually a necessary evil thanks to how his power is. If the hitbox of his tentacle wouldn't move with him, his range would actually be much shorter since part of the distance the tentacle would of covered, he just covered as well.
Urobending doesn't give "undeserved scam hits". Its main purpose is throwing some one out of position which most of the time is towards the edge of the map. If the Survivor you're going after is healthy, getting a hit from a throw is much better than from a slam since you can still adjust yourself while the Survivors speed burst goes off.
To say sky billy had no potential for a competitive advantage couldn't be further from the truth. Of course not many people played it that way, but I've seen a few Billy's use it to their advantage and it was/is the most abusable tech by far. Shutting down multiple loops, improving his mobility, and having a top down view of the map are just a few things sky billy allowed you to do, and when put into the right hands it could be devastating.
360's mess with aim dressing, but not actual hits. The times you see it attempt to adjust your camera for a hit wouldn't of gotten you the hit even if aim dressing didn't exist. Its just a common misconception that's spread around because its easier to say: "I'm not the problem, the game is!"
Now, saving the best for last; Your very first sentence: "I don't recall this, so it likely was before my time starting the game. If it was reintroduced it sounds like it is an intended mechanic now."
For one, it was reintroduced and was even mentioned in the patch notes. This was all the way back in Summer of 2018 when Trapper received his mini rework.
Two, what makes you and anybody reading this think that this is the only case of an unintended mechanic becoming an actual thing? Some of these have been in the game for literal years now, and there hasn't been any news from BHVR that they have any plans on removing these. Most of these techs are ways to express skill and just add that extra layer of learning to people who already have thousands of hours. I myself am sitting at over 5.8k and still learn new things to this day because of fancy little techs that I either am on the receiving end, find out by pure accident, (input buffer trapper) or the occasional youtube video.
Now as for the actual main topic being Blight, I can guarantee you Hug Tech is likely on the bottom of the list of reasons as to why you got downed. People just need to wake up and realize this guy has a busted basekit with add ons that are WAY too overtuned.
Most of the 'working as intended' facets are when 2 disjointed mechanics clash with strange or incorrect compared to the expected results. IIRC specifically for Blight, McLean said on one of his streams, that bug tech is specifically from how when they changed his crotch height camera to a normal camera, it broke the 2 checks (body and camera) to allow for bug tech. If Blight went back to crotch height camera, it would actually fix bug tech overnight, at the cost of an annoyingly low camera angle. I played and got used to Blight with that release crotch height camera, and think he is certainly powerful enough that reverting the camera wouldn't hurt his results enough, and would fix enough of his bugs, that it would be worthwhile to do.
'Bugged' hitboxes - Yes I apologize for inaccurate phrasing. If I am a human character, I don't expect my hitbox to be a cylindrical pill shape. Also if I am leaning forward, one would reasonably expect the hitbox to match the newly leaning character model, however it remains the same location cylindrical pill shape centered around the character's waist. Just because visually, the hatchet clearly exploded 12m behind me, doesn't mean programmatically it isn't working as intended with the Huntresses' 1200 ping and the favor the shooter code. That being said, 'working as intended' looks horribly inaccurate, and misleads all too many players who haven't viewed the hitbox demo video. It would be far more reasonable to at the very least, have the injured hitbox lean like '\' as opposed to '|' still. Similarly just because someone is crouching, doesn't mean the attack hitbox shouldn't also extend from the Killers' feet to head (still blocked by windows and walls), in order to prevent silly misses on hills. For most of the things, if it was made wrong, that doesn't also mean it is working as intended, just working as programmed.
As far as Wesker turning mid dash to scam hits, yeah it most certainly is a scam. If you dash in a line, the throw/slam should follow the dash's line. If I run in the middle of a jungle gym, and Wesker dashes once in the gym to the wall near the pallet, then dashes again to hit me when I am in the middle of the pallet, he should go parallel to the standing pallet and presumably throw/slam me into some debris outside of the jungle gym, or thrown into the open if there is no debris. He most certainly shouldn't turn 90 degrees and slam me into the pallet, nor should I slide off the rock unijured should he throw me into it. If there was no debris in the back drop and he slammed me into the pallet, that was a scam hit. If I would have hit the rock uninjured, but get slammed into the pallet, it prevented him from getting scammed instead.
Sky Billy Advantage - I mean theoretically yeah, they could have spent 3 minutes to get on top of the main building of Dead Dawg, but I feel as though the spending those 3 minutes negates all possibility of it being an advantage when they could have been chasing, downing, and whittling down map resources. Especially in comparison to the majority of other bugs/inaccuracies listed.
Autoaim/Aim-dressing - Then lets allow it to be turned off and we can find out if players such as myself are actually delusional, or are actually getting scammed hits that Autoaim ended the lunge early to hit the corner of the wall instead of the Survivor, or not letting me lunge in the open against a spinning Survivor. I learned to swing to the side after the first time I got 360'd to ensure it would lunge hit them instead of stop the attack early only to miss, so it can be worked around, but disabling autoaim would be far less annoying.
As far as Blight in general, I too think he needs nerfs both to basekit and add-ons. In my ideal DBD there would be no S or D tier Killers. That would necessitate nerfs to basically the top 5 (maybe more) and buffs to the bottom 5 (maybe more). I specifically hate bug tech on Blight, because an already S-tier Killer is getting more tools in their kit. The kit is already friggin' overloaded in the Killer's favor, why does he need more, yet Pig and Myers doesn't?