mizark3
mizark3
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@Sava18 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3513302#Comment_3513302
I am a league player of over 10 years now.
If someone is trolling I know for a fact they will get at least suspended if they do it a few times in a month, an entire month(people complaining about 24 hour bans after dcing 10 times LMAO).
There's no leaving, there's no afking and active trolling is rare. You may get extremely tiled players due to the nature of the game that play far worse than nomral but it's rare to run into someone running it down for the past 5+years(both are rare).
League is extremely snowbally, there is no major come back mechanic when played safe just like in dbd. Yes there are shutdowns but it's literally irrelevant if people play around it, sound familiar?
I can tell you that getting zoned off of even my first tower by the enemy top laner + jungler for 10 min straight to completely knock me out of the game with nothing that can be done because my jungler either is a weaker jungler or has to play around bot(bot lane jungle meta) is far worse than OH NO being slugged for 4 min(boo hoo).
In a game that typically lasts 12 min max, there is no reason to dc.
I know all the vets in this game are biased to the past of the party game the doesn't exist whatsoever anymore but it's not viable for the games health to let people(survivors) leave whenever they want.
Only in this playbase do people actively endorse this absurdly terrible behavior and it's quite sad that I have to witness it commonly. The harshest punishment in this game for an extremely selfish person is alt+tabbing, oh god you have to watch youtube for max 5 min.
Only thing I'll give you is dbd players being bad but that is no malicious in anyway.
League is infamous for handing out false dogpile and other unjustified bans. People more frequently are banned for calling out the person throwing the game/being toxic, than the actual gamethrower/toxic player. I refused to engage with chat in that game because so many false bans were being thrown out. I played League on release (when they sold a physical box in stores) until about S5-6, and it was always possible to make a comeback as long as the player that fell behind wasn't an idiot. I don't know if they changed the game mechanics so irreparably to make comebacks impossible since then however.
As far as jungle camping top lane, you can at least know your team is pulling ahead getting dragons, and if they aren't, then they are tactically planning on using the surrender feature I already mentioned. That isn't far worse than being slugged for 4 minutes, because surrenders hard end the match for everyone. Even if they refuse to surrender, you still have agency (again, unless League got even less playable over the years after I quit, they were heading that direction when I decided I was done).
So again if we want to compare League vs DBD QoL features, we have Champion bans, and a surrender feature in League. DBD has... far fewer false bans. I mean I guess that's something.
Now this one I wasn't present for, and have only heard from word of mouth, but DBD had no DC penalties for the first 3-4(?) years. The game had a much smaller playerbase, yet didn't die off immediately from the lack of a DC penalty. Almost like people only DC against the worst of experiences, otherwise people start to lobby dodge the DCing players.
I do find it funny though if you truly did come from League, you would know nothing anyone can do in this game is truly 'toxic' in comparison to the depths League players could dive. A ten on the scale of toxicity in this game is a two or a three in League.
The main thing with my post, is I was explaining that those games have harsher DC penalties because they have QoL features to make the worst of matches less common, or less painful or annoying. DBD has none of those features, and can have far worse experiences, drawn out for far longer. DBD is the only game I play, where a teammate DCing makes me go "yeah I get it". I don't approve or endorse, but I do understand. The lack of all of these basic features is the why, and the only reason they don't allow free DCs is because they aren't able to fix those problems in a timely manner. (See 'Hostage'* Merchant being untouched.) *In spirit
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3513026#Comment_3513026
Name any other team based multiplayer game, where this kind of behavior is acceptable. Because i can name you half a dozen, that not only don't tolerate it, but significantly punish it.
- DotA2: You get 1 free leave a WEEK, then you start getting penalties, 1st game is a warning, 2nd game you get put into LOW PRIORITY queue, which makes your matchmaking take 3-4x longer, and in order to get out you have to WIN X number of games depending on your penalty, and you also are forced to play with other people in Low priority, meaning you play with all the douchebags
- Overwatch: XP penalties of 75% (progression) and banning from matches (similar to DBD)
- LoL: Scaling bans going from 1 day, 3 day, 1 week etc. if you do it too often
- Rainbow 6 Siege: XP penalty of 50%, 24 hour ban, 72 hour ban, banning from the ENTIRE SEASON (2 months)
- CS:GO: scaling time 30 minutes to 2 hours to 24 hours to 7 DAYS
The other kicker about these games, is matches can last FAR LONGER than a match of DBD. A typical match of DBD lasts about 8-10 minutes. Meaning, if you are having a bad time, at most you'll have a bad time for 8 minutes. These games have SIGNIFICANTLY more punishing systems despite longer games. Games of DotA, LoL and CS:GO can last an hour or more. Games of rainbow 6 will last 30 minutes to an hour, and overwatch can last 15-20 minutes.
And now here is the part where you will say "but DBD is a party game". Even if that argument is true, which i don't think it is, killing yourself on hook, is ruining the party too. So i think you should be punished anyway.
Now is the next part where you will say "but DBD doesn't have a ranked mode", yeah it doesn't, but guess what, many of those games i mentioned, also have penalties for leaving games in casual matches as well. And if you are queuing up, you are agreeing to play a match. If you don't want to see certain killers, or perks, or you want to do something specific, that is what custom games are for. Invite some of your friends over, and play by your own rules. When you queue for matchmaking, you deal with it.
While most of the games listed have longer matches, they also have basic QoL features such as bans in the Ranked modes. DBD has MMR required, meaning we only have Ranked mode with matchmaking (Customs being the alternative mode), without the Ranked mode QoL features found in those other games. Also many of the games have surrender votes. The games also don't permanently lock a player out of the match on death (forcing a SWF member to alt-tab and watch a video in the meantime for 3-20 minutes), and many of those games are designed with comeback mechanics. Shooters are also unique in that a sufficiently skilled player can literally solo the entire enemy team. If my team has half the gold of the opponents in Dota/League, we can still get lucky on an ambush/teamfight and win. If I have a baby Feng being chased first in DBD, it isn't a matter of if we lose, but when we lose (if the Killer doesn't intentionally hinder themselves to play nice). If she predrops all the pallets, I can't 5 gen run the Killer while managing their bloodlust with those pallets, especially if she is hiding and refusing to touch gens while I'm in chase across the entire map.
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
I find "Kill obsession" worse than get kills. Obsession Challenges want you to tunnel people.
Arguably it just incentivizes bringing Nemesis or Game Afoot as getting a max of 4 Obs kills/12 hooks from the perks is far easier.
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This is the problem with a 60% kill rate. Killers will 'win' more than they 'lose' in equal matchups, and raise their MMR to reach the softcap before they have learned the necessary skills to 'survive' there. This is also a problem because 'top-MMR' is the best 25% of players. That means if a Killer or Survivor is barely in the top 25%, they will ONLY fight players with more MMR than them, or tied if they get lucky.
The best (unsatisfying) advice I can give, is intentionally 8 hook before going for kills. This way you will naturally lose matches, and MMR, while still getting chases and experience playing. Eventually your MMR will drop to the point were you will win matches (3k+) while still intentionally 8 hooking before kills. At that point you will have developed enough skill and game knowledge to at least stand a chance against the top 25% of the playerbase. Sadly this will require losing, like, a lot. But if you can shift the goal/win condition in your head to 'Each Survivor hooked once' or something else attainable, then you eventually will be able to enjoy your matches again. If people smack-talk in endgame, just click the box to hide chat at the end.
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The problem was the anniversary caused many mismatched servers to be used for matches. That meant most matches were excessively laggy, and Killers could get undeserved hits. Lag in this game favors the 'attacker', which almost exclusively is the Killer. There are some mechanics where lag favors Survivors, such as revealing Ghostface, or EMPs clearing Singularity infections. Since most Killer players are used to lag being on their side, nothing was different during their Anniversary gameplay, but Survivor sided gameplay was miserable. People were complaining about the lag hits, and the devs 'fixed' the wrong problem, and gave us these 'giga'-vaults instead of fixing latency at vault points.
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I don't quite agree with reverting to the old 24m TR, only because with Monitor it would allow for a 16m TR with 18m effective range. I would like some add-ons to be touched up though.
I think some separate QoL buffs might be better instead. Maybe when his spear is unloaded, he moves at 4.6. Also when hooking a Survivor, it reloads the spear for free. I also wouldn't be opposed to reducing Warden's Keys a tiny bit but basekitting the Brown reload effect.
Right now he is a terror if he can stack STBFL to full. Get a normal hit then a quick shot before they even get out of the speed boost.
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The only reason 3 Survivors aren't attempting gens is when the Killer is holding the match hostage (in spirit, not RAW sadly). Chase a Survivor instead of camping gens for the past 15-30 minutes and they'd be willing to play. Engage in normal gameplay with them, and they engage in normal gameplay with you.
I have only had this be a problem when 2 people are hiding for hatch, waiting out each other. That would be better served by a surrender vote that randomly kills one of them and gives the other the choice of death or the chance of hatch.
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Perk bans would be matched with perk bans. The closest analogue Killer could have to ban would probably be maps/realms. No more Springwood!
@Ivanynakov said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3510757#Comment_3510757
New Ranked mode with picks and bans! More mindgames in lobby!
MMR Isn't optional, so that means we are already playing Ranked Mode without the QoL features other games have had for years.
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@Thusly_Boned said:
I know what you are saying and I agree with your overall point, but semantically I hate it, lol. To me "master" means maximizing their potential and/or hitting their skill ceiling (in my terms, all the hardest players to master would be in your middle or easy tier).
Competing at a high level with them is a different thing altogether.
I also take some issue with your rankings under your own terms. I definitely wouldn't put Plague in the easiest tier, that's for sure. Plague and Bubba are both highly effective against low tier comp, but fall off significantly against good players.
Killers like Trapper and Freddy don't really have enough "intricacies" to unlock to make them competitive regardless of player skill. Their potential simply isn't there.
Like I could unlock all the intricacies of sword fighting with a butter knife, but it's still gonna be a butter knife. It's not that intricate, and neither is Trapper, even at his skill ceiling.
I suppose that is really just reinforcing your point.
I would agree with Freddy, but disagree with Trapper. Trapper can place traps along loops (not on the pallet or window, but where they rotate), at 2nd story drops (at a different distance for slow vaults and rushed vaults). There can be extra mind-games to force the Surv to leave tall loops by pretending to trap then continuing chase instead, or bringing a Silent Trap add-on and Coffee Grounds to get a speed boost hit. Because you have so little to start with, there is a great degree of creativity and skill expression in getting hits and downs.
As far as Blight/Nurse being lower, I would even drop them to Easy. People make fun of Dull Merchant for the 'flowchart' gameplay, but Blight and Nurse are the same thing. If you use power correctly as Blight/Nurse you get a hit. If you follow the flowchart you win. There isn't nearly the level of back and forth the other Killers have with trying to outmatch their opposition. I think people confuse the effectiveness of a Killer with the skillful expressions done. There isn't skill if there isn't a realistic chance of failure. That's why Blight mains go for tricks, because it is impossible to lose if they just followed the flowchart.
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@jarjargist21 said:
I'm doing the clown kill all 4 survivors and I simply can't with the gen rush to hell and back and broken perk combos
I tried slugging builds
I tried gen dense
i tried exposed builds
A basic M1 killer build good on near everyone is Pop/Pain Res/Corrupt/STBFL (although an argument could be made for Brutal Strength to replace Corrupt). Although I'd want to know what add-ons you are using, and whether or not you are using Yellow Bottles more than Purple or not. Yellow Bottles give the Clown 2.3m (over ~5s), and Purple Bottles lose the Survivor 1.8m (over ~3s). There are 2 important things though, you can combine both bottles (to net gain 4.1m), and Purple Bottles for Medium vaults at windows (but not pallets).
Arinad had a cool method of visualizing Clown add-ons by putting them in 3 categories, Lethality, Utility, and Bottle Count/reload downtime. You can only use 2 add-ons across those 3 categories, so you want perks to make up for weaknesses in your build and playstyle. If I can't find Survs very well (need intel), Cigar box 16m aura read while under the effects of Yellow Gas is super helpful. If I need map mobility, I can use Garish Make-Up for 2 extra yellow seconds, and Cheap Gin for 2 extra bottles. If I need lethality, I can brink Flask of Bleach or Redhead's Pinkie Finger. One flaw with Redhead's though, is like a perma T3 Myers, people stop healing, so you will feel the 'genrush' more as a result.
I'd recommend starting with the perks I listed above, pick the add-ons you like (but I would recommend against Redhead), then swap perks to help compliment or make up for weaknesses of the add-ons. For example you probably don't need Nowhere to Hide if you brought Cigar Box, but you might need the perk if you didn't bring the add-on and can't find people.
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One thing I've noticed when dodging a teammate that lost the last match for the team single-handedly, is that if you queue up too soon, it loves to put you back in the same match. Same for Killer if you are dodging someone with 'Multiple VAC bans on record across multiple games, last ban 45 days ago' (which happened the other day for me). I think a simple lobby dodge fixed penalty of 1 minute would help on both main fronts. If you didn't want to play, waiting a minute isn't going to matter. This wouldn't escalate like the DC penalty, just be 1 minute if you dodge. If you just wanted to dodge a single person, waiting that single minute for someone else to backfill will also prevent a re-match. It would also help against Killer overly 'choosing' their matches and forcing a backfill Killer to stomp baby Survs, or experienced Survs stomping a baby Killer.
I also would really want to see the ping of everyone in the lobby. I think it currently only shows if Survivors are red ping, but you can't see yellow ping, or the Killer's. I know I'm not going to have fun going against a VPN 200+ latency Huntress or Wesker, so please let me not have to deal with that BS.
@Pavel_Ch said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3509887#Comment_3509887
you want to hide prestige, but I want survivors to not be able to switch to another character in the lobby
I get this, but the worst thing they can do is equip an item you didn't see prior. Survivors are just skins, and it doesn't change whether or not the player has 50 or 5k hours. This is most often a QoL time where you can spend BP on another Survivor while you still have the time. When I'm doing this to spend BP, I personally toggle ready/unready on the Surv I plan to play until ~50s, then spend BP until ~15-10s. That way the Killer knows I intend to play the other Surv, but I'm just spending BP in the meantime.
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@Captain_Dickärd said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3510638#Comment_3510638
I summoned a guard on the downed survivor, forgetting I had a mori. I hit the guard when I saw the prompt (for mori), then mori the survivor. Her friend was teabagging her the entire animation and I downed and mori her friend directly after as well. I didn't look directly down at either survivor, but my head was slightly tilted downward during the second mori.
It wouldn't let me attach any videos to this post but I took a few after noticing the bug.
If you can upload it as an unlisted Youtube video, then you can just post the link. That's what I do for cheater reports, but it can serve the same purpose here.
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Latency favoring Wesker is the problem people are complaining about. Wesker gets an excessive advantage with even a small ping difference due to the speed of the dashes. You can be around a corner and still get grabbed by a laggy Wesker just like a laggy Huntress hatchet. The problem is you can't usually see the lagvantage when playing as Killer unless the Survivor has 200+ ping. You can 'feel' it when you get certain hits if you play Survivor enough though.
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@Mockingjay_S451 said:
Well, I guess the killer mains moaned loud enough. This is in the PTB Bug Reporting section.
Back to being hit from miles away I guess.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/LV05FQWWVVXV/img-1062.jpeg
You do realize Tat is a Killer/Legion main and streamer/youtuber, right?
@Halloulle said:
The distance on live is insane. - Esp. on male survivors. Agreed. That needs to be changed.
But fiddling with the distance to mitigate insane killer ping (you know, the one where you're vauting into a TL and are pretty much on the other side already and then get smacked) seems to have worked; there were a lot less hits-from-the-moon and a lot of hits by killers on red ping (ping icon) that shouldn't have hit actually didn't hit. Felt nice.
So I am all for fiddling with the vault speed/distance until we reached a point where high ping doesn't reward the killer while also not robbing killers of legitimate window hits.
Very much this with the latency. The fast vaults feel fine when I play with my friends 3 time zones apart, but are OP on my own server.
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@Raconteurminator said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3511343#Comment_3511343
And you're ignoring that the conversation is over. It was over before your previous post. I wasn't trying to engage in anything at that point, I was making a clarification and signing off (asking you not to ping me, which you also paid stellar attention to).
Going "lala I can't hear you" doesn't make a conversation end, but I do understand you weren't engaging in good faith to begin with. I didn't DM you, I am publicly posting a reply so people understand what the things I say are in reference to. It is for everyone else's sake, as well as yours should you choose to continue as you did here. If you reply to me, I reply back if there are things to add. If there is nothing to add I won't.
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@Raconteurminator said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3510490#Comment_3510490
Ah, yes, Freddy. The scourge of Survivors everywhere! But seriously, this is exactly what I said. "I'm good, therefore X is fine." As I also said, nothing good will come from this conversation continuing, and I can see that the straws you were grasping at have fallen into your shoes. I can see there was a point of confusion, which I'll clear up now. When I said (paraphrasing), "12-hook games is something most Killers cannot reliably do," I didn't mean Killer players, I meant the characters themselves. Trapper, for example, will have a much, much harder time getting 12-hooks consistently than a Blight would. That was my bad for not making myself clear. I wasn't arguing that Killer players are bad and need their hand holding.
Fun little conversation, but it is sadly at an end now. Feel free to have the last word, but don't ping me.
You completely ignored the actual facet of tunneling, being immediately chased off hook, to latch onto Freddy's ability to teleport instead. You are seeing the individual leaves of a single tree, not the forest I am trying to mention. If you want to conveniently ignore the major points to laser focus on the minor points, you aren't engaging in good faith.
I do agree certain Killer's kits lend more towards a snowbally, end the game 'early' (not 12 hook) style. Like if say that Trapper got a basement hook with some traps set up, or an Oni getting a multi-down in power. Anti-tunnel effects wouldn't disrupt these methods of snowball victory, as people are downed before they get rescues, not after, and are lost upon the CA of trying to pick up a downed teammate.
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My best guess is placing the portal and starting a Mori put you an a separate animation state which lock you out of being able to enter chase.
@Captain_Dickärd said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/7J2979ZAGTVJ/20230809174317-1.jpg
Just had this same issue occur with the knight after using a mori. Chase music would not activate until hits, and would fade soon after.
Edit: Included perk loadout.
Do you recall if you looked down to see the Survivor when using the Mori? Another theory of mine is looking down (as forced with portal placement) then completing an animation might treat the Killer as looking at the floor for the rest of the match.
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@Raconteurminator said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3510394#Comment_3510394
What you call 'toggle-tunnelling' isn't tunnelling. You took something you're not fond of and called it 'also-tunnelling' to make it sound bad. A lot of things in this game are possible if you're skilled enough, but that isn't an argument - it's basically a roundabout way of saying git gud. It doesn't really contribute much, and certainly doesn't take into account the overall average skill of people playing this game. 80-second gens were demonstrably too low, for a start. And Bloodlust? Really? BL is a band-aid fix for poor map design. It's not hand-holding to give Killers the possibility of catching a Survivor if they play well. Without it, that possibility would not even exist in the majority of chases.
But I see what's happening now, you're confusing actual attempts at balancing with hand-holding. What Killers mostly want is balanced perks and reasonable gen time, what Survivors seem to want is hard restrictions on basic mechanics and to lobotomise their opposition's autonomy. We were having a nice little conversation, but I'll be honest: my attention span went for a little walk the moment you pulled the, "I'm so good that my matches are super easy and I have to handicap myself" shtick. Nothing good ever comes from a conversation after someone's basically appealed to their own authority to strengthen their argument, so we'll leave it there I think.
'Toggle-tunneling' most certainly is tunneling if the Surv never had a chance to touch a gen, and still had DS/OTR available without intentionally banking it. The Survivor had no chance to complete a Conspicuous Action post-hook. That's tunneling by the games perk logic, and by anyone who can be in that position. Even then, that doesn't stop a Killer from downing Surv B across the map while Surv A is still on hook, then walking back and waiting at Surv A's hook for them to be unhooked and target them again. Many Killers like Onryo/Demo/Freddy can just TP back and instantly tunnel someone post-hook anyways.
I disagree with 80s gens being too low. I was able to win consistently with Clown of all Killers, but to be fair I was using the old Pop/Tinker wombo combo. You say people can't use the "I'm so good" argument, while you are using the "bad Killers are too bad without camp/tunnel" mirror argument yourself. Besides, there is a world of difference of appeal to one's own authority, and having one's experience. You can't know other people's position or experience without talking to them. I never claimed to have any authority, I merely know my own experience. I was bad, and now I think I'm less bad. I improved over time and I know other people can do the same. We don't remove Legion's Deep Wound because some Survivors don't understand the mend mechanic and fall into the Dying state. We expect people to learn the mechanics and play with them in mind.
As far as 'Bloodlust is a band-aid fix for poor map design', that is my exact argument for anti-tunnel perks. Anti-tunnel perks are a band-aid fix for poor gameplay design. Survivors just don't have a basekit version that doesn't deny other things. Bamboozle doesn't disable breaking pallets, so why does OTR not work with basekit BT?
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@mca240 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3508673#Comment_3508673
Sigh. Plenty of statistics have shown that it is objectively busted. It takes 20% longer to catch up with a survivor than without. You can loop longer and reach pallets/vaults you otherwise cannot extended chases in a game, where there is no room for extended chases given the speed at which generators are done.
The reason you find it "fun" is because it is an unbalanced perk making you feel you're good at looping. It is literally old Dead Hard all over again, hence 75% of survivors running it.
Plenty of statistics show it is 'objectively busted'? Where are they? Sprint Burst gives 6 extra meters, and MfT gives .12 extra meters per second. That would mean MfT needs 50 seconds of uninterrupted running to reach the equivalent distance. We have an in-game mechanic, Bloodlust, that takes 15s to reach T1, 25s to reach T2, and 35s to reach T3. We can use this to time the difference. You can count to 15s after reaching Bloodlust 3 to determine whether or not MfT was better than Sprint Burst.
Even if that were not the case, could you show common loops with and without MfT to see when the speed makes a difference? Just take a friend into a custom and record loops where the difference is made. You can have them bring Self-Care and Any Means Necessary to reset pallets and heal back to Healthy to remove the MfT speed boost. The lack of this evidence is why I am so in doubt of it being overpowered. I have had little to no problem dealing with MfT users as Killer myself. The only nerf it deserves is the removal of the Endurance effect. That makes it 2 perks in one, and it has no right to be.
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@Raconteurminator said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3510249#Comment_3510249
Your fair approach, in all fairness, was spooky Casper ghost mode. Invisibility and a guaranteed escape doesn't come across as particularly fair. It forces 12-hooks, something most Killers cannot reliably do, something the game isn't balanced around, something it may not even be possible to balance around. Also, congratulations, you found a player with, what, 7-8k hours of playtime. All that video proves is that Hens is ridiculously good at the game and performs at a level well above what 99% of players will ever achieve. Massive props to Hens, but that video is not something that should be waved around as evidence that 12-hook balancing is possible. You want unskilled Killers to be matched with equally unskilled Survivors, but that will never happen while one side is constantly having its hand held.
Killers should choose appropriate perks, is what I'm getting from you. People grouped on gens, Distortion. People healing, Nurse's Calling, etc. Maybe I'm putting words in your mouth, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm hearing "adaptation." That's exactly my point. A Survivor that wants to be tunnelled less would adapt their perks based upon the risk they are willing to take. DS is 11 seconds in your example, but Resilience is only 15 seconds in an ideal scenario where you make that split-second vault. That is the cost, that is the risk and that is the reward. Risk it for a biscuit or take a guaranteed 11 seconds. People choose to forgo Flashlights in favour of Toolboxes, people choose to forgo anti-tunnelling perks in favour of chase perks and progression perks. If people choose to forgo consistent defensive options in favour of higher rewards, bloody good for them - but those rewards have risks.
It wouldn't stop the current dominant strategy of what I call 'toggle-tunneling', or Hooking Surv A/B/A/B/A/B/C/D. It would only stop the worst extremes of tunneling immediately off hook or A/A/A/B/C/D.
12 hooks is something most Killers can reasonably do, if they have the skill. It should be aspirational to improve and get better. Even then it is only skill relative to your opposition. So how exactly is it difficult to down a baby Feng in chase?
You say hand-holding relative to Survivors, as if Killers didn't have their hand held far more with 10% kick and hit CD becoming basekit, 5s off of each upper Bloodlust tier, and 10s per gen (increasing % gen regression at the same time). Killer keeps getting easier over time, thus weaker Killers think they are good when they aren't. The weaker Killers get to an MMR they don't belong in, then have to resort to camping/tunneling to win more matches. Since the design flaw exists, the weaker Killers are stuck in that negative feedback loop being 'forced' to tunnel in order to win matches that they aren't supposed to otherwise with skill against skill. Most of my matches are too easy now, and I intentionally go for 12 hooks to counterbalance that.
Killers and Survivors should choose appropriate perks. I don't think 4 gen slowdown should ever be more effective than Intel/Lethality/Slowdown/Flex. Similarly for Survivor with 4 of one category compared to Chase/Altruistic/Anti-Extreme/Flex. The problem is if over the course of the match, DS only gave 11s of value when it actually worked, why would I ever use that when Botany gives me 5.33s per heal, or Resilience could give me an extra vault per chase? Most times Survivor is likely to heal at least once or twice a match, and take numerous vaults, yet the hyper-specific no CA anti-tunnel doesn't give enough value to outpace the other choices.
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@Raconteurminator said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3509986#Comment_3509986
This isn't a MOBA, it isn't a team-based shooter; it's an asymmetric survival horror game. If you try to balance an asymmetrical game with a similar mindset to balancing a team-based shooter, you get more imbalance. A ludicrously effective anti-camp system is fine in a team-based game like CS because it affects both teams equally. A ludicrously effective anti-tunnel system in DBD is just a massive, uncounterable boost to one side. Your method of fixing tunnelling would essentially make every game a 12-hook game -- and may even promote more camping -- which isn't going to really be feasible for a lot of the Killer pool.
Your example with Bubba highlights more of an issue with Bubba himself than it does anything else. And, if the Bubba is face-camping, then he's not tunnelling - by definition. Face-camping is already going to be massively nerfed in a future patch, which is good, but also not what I was talking about. No, the Watership Down meta didn't form because Bubba so terrorised the entire Survivor community. It formed because not being caught is surprisingly conducive to escaping the trial quickly, regardless of the Killer. It doesn't, however, deal with getting caught.
In order for anti-tunnelling perks to work, first people need to bring them. One alone won't do it, just like one regression perk for Killers usually isn't enough. Perks don't tend to be so powerful these days that one solves all your problems. Fair enough about the Spine Chill thing, but it doesn't change the fact that a significant number of people want to have their cake and eat it. You can't have Sprint Burst, Adrenaline, Prove Thy Self and Resilience and be adequately defended against tunnelling.
The MOBA/Shooter was simply examples of the known problem across games, and their particular implementations at fixing said problem. Learning of the problem and analyzing solutions allows for finding out an effective solution for your particular problem. Also I didn't offer a 'ludicrously effective anti-tunnel system', I offered a fair approach. The Killer out and about on the map is unaffected, so only the turbo tunneler or camper would be hurt by this 10s 'invis'. Survivors have to group up to heal, so maybe run A Nurse's Calling or Deathbound, or if they group on gens, Discordance. Then after the hook on the rescuer a BBQ could show you the aura of all/most players, and allow you to seek out the person on hook prior. If the Killer hooked this new Survivor before 10s after unhook even ended, I think the Killer didn't need any more help in killing the Survs. Working towards a 12 hook game ensures unskilled Killers get equivalent results, and get matched with equally unskilled Survivors. Hens showcased that Skilled M1 Killers can get more than a 90% winrate without even using power while intentionally not camping/tunneling/slugging.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaR-9_Vjp3sIt isn't a problem exclusive to Bubba, as other Instadown Killers (Billy/Ghosty/Myers/Iri Photo card Trickster/etc.) and permanently injured Killers (Legion/Plague/Engineer's Fang Pinhead/etc.) can equally benefit from facecamping. The issue is core to the game, not a one-off problem for a singular Killer. While the facecamping issue will eventually be resolved, that doesn't help the here and now, and it also doesn't help proxy camping the only entrance at a chokepoint like RPD, H-shaped maps, and more. To be fair the proxy camping is more a map design flaw than a core gameplay loop flaw. Also a Bubba can screw up a facecamp and still hard tunnel off-hook, so they aren't mutually exclusive unless you want to consider each millisecond instead of each match. They are often linked, as most tunneling includes some level of camping.
In order for gen-regression perks to work, you simply need to bring the newly nerfed Jolt with 2% regression in a 24m radius only when a Survivor goes down from a Deep-Wound timer bleedout /s. It doesn't matter if people bring something if it is unplayably bad. Do people want to have everything, yes, both sides bring 4 chase or 4 gen slowdown perks then complain about the lack of the variety in their kit. The problem is anti-tunnel is so ineffective, and fails to stack effectively.
Anti-tunnel needs to be more effective than general chase perks, so that people won't just bring a general chase perk instead. If I got 11s from DS when tunneled, or 15s from my Resilience from a barely squeezed out extra vault, Resilience is strictly superior. If OTR could work with the basekit BT being procced, it would be fine. If DS could actually make a Killer think twice about picking up, it would be fine. Sadly neither of those cases are true.
I just hatch escaped from a Wesker match on RPD where he had the full on facecamp build (Corrupt, Deadlock, No Way Out, Pain Res surprisingly, and the tunnel infection add-on.) and hard tunneled off hook. That wasn't a playable match, and I would have died if I didn't get lucky with the Hatch spawn. I then got a Knight match where the Killer tried to camp and tunnel, but he brought a rounded build, seemed to not understand the guard hook mechanics, and 3 people gate escaped as a result.
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@MeowMeow93 said:
When 2 survivors left and if they cannot do gens because it's already a lost when killer forces one survivor to reaveal aura of another one should be punishable. Solution one if killer keeps one on the ground this person can surrender and kill himself after 60 seconds .Solution 2 when there are 2 survivors left they don't see each other aura .Solution 3 bring back hatch when it's at least 2 people .It was nerfed enough with this low speed and it's more than enough gates shouldn't be always the only one exit . Solution 4 if killer and survivor do that and cooperate together to find another person who was for example all match looping and doing gens (not taking into account rats) killer and that survivor should get ban after few reports doing that .(there is a report actually for that but they don't work well enough )
"Working With Killer" is a bannable offense, but like most things, you need video proof. In general I'd recommend recording all matches and deleting the wins to improve by analyzing failures. Then if someone cheats or does something sketch, you have the evidence for the report.
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@Raconteurminator said:
As much as people dislike hearing it: the opposing player is not, never was and, due to the subjective nature of it, cannot be responsible for your fun. It is not, nor can it be their responsibility to make sure you get to play the game beyond a point you deem acceptable (a point they have no way of knowing). It's a competitive game - only you can make that happen.
Perks and inbuilt protections exist that make it much harder and much less rewarding to tunnel, but a lot of Survivors I've seen (as Killer or not) think they can run no anti-tunnel perks at all and somehow be perfectly fine. No, instead, the most popular perk is Windows of Opportunity - a glorified SatNav. The meta is clearly built around people trying to avoid being hit or downed in the first place rather than dealing with the consequences of it inevitably happening. The majority of players are essentially running glass cannon builds and complaining when they get shattered.
You can't argue anti-tunnelling perks are bad or useless, because Spine Chill and Self-Care are sitting in the top 10 - clearly this community doesn't shy away from niche, possibly useless perks if there's a chance they'll do something useful one out of ten times. If tunnelling was so prevalent, there wouldn't be a preponderance of non-tunnelling perks in the top 10. Even if they were bad perks, with tunnelling being as bad as it supposedly is, there'd be more than Dead Hard scraping in at number ten.
This tells me tunnelling isn't A) as common as some would have you believe, and B) an overwhelmingly unfair tactic that most people are worried about enough to take measures against. The 22% of people running Adrenaline are so unconcerned about tunnelling that they elect to play the majority of the game with 3 perks.
Ultimately, everyone is playing the game for their own amusement, for their own fun; expecting others to go out of their way to play it for yours is naive at best. You want fun in a competitive game, you need to safeguard it yourself, because no-one else can be expected to do it for you. No-one else can do it for you.
Tunneling is akin to spawn-killing, which typically is at least dealt with in various games with different mechanics. In MOBAs you have a 'fountain laser' or some powerful turret that kills most characters faster than the attempted spawn killer can kill the respawning character. Round based shooters like CS spawn you cross-map with 0 potential for spawn-killing (unless you were to include the risk/reward of rushing an open midlane). (Good) Deathmatch shooters have spawn invuln, that typically lasts longer or drops earlier depending on the spawning players' actions (kind of like Conspicuous Actions). Most games have a good mechanic to fix this problem of fun, or have iterated on it over the years. Even if you were to consider basekit BT as 'spawn invuln', then shouldn't it function like Mettle of Man instead? No Deep Wound, full damage immunity? As is, if you get hit in basekit BT, you get denied a potential DH/OTR as well.
Personally I would fix 'spawn-killing' styled tunneling by making the ally unhooked (no Kobes) Survivor invisible (like Spirit phasing), silent, no scratch marks or blood and immune to damage for the basekit BT 10s, which ends early if they do a Conspicuous Action. If they are being hard tunneled off of hook, they don't lose their Endurance potential, and the Killer has to actively search a ~40m radius from hook. Alternatively the Killer could just go for the unhooking Survivor instead.
As far as Meta perks being "don't go down in the first place" perks, I'd say that's because it's pretty easy to prove you can win with a facecamping Bubba with stacked perks in the current version of the game. If you go down and get facecamped or even just a gen greed punish 2nd stage proxy camp, the Killer wins. A stacked facecamper (Deadlock+No Way Out being at the core) can easily 3k minimum. No skill other than 3 hooks and 3 kills. That is the consequence of kill based matchmaking incentivizing tunneling and camping, instead of the alternatives of hook based match making, or skill based matching. If Killers were encouraged to spread the pressure, the meta perks instead would be that of recovering from the pressure dealt. Heal perks and better rewards on unhook and other altruistic perks would look better. Similarly since getting hooked is such a death sentence in the realm of tunneling, Survs are faced with 'the only winning move is not to play', in the sense that getting hooked could mean you are going to death spiral out of control and lose. If anti-tunnel perks had teeth, they wouldn't be so incentivized to never go down in the first place.
As far as people using bad/useless perks, Spine Chill during ~2/3rds of the timeframe wasn't useless (it was nerfed in 7.1.0, or end of July), as it gave you a distance tracker for the Killer. This could essentially let you have wallhacks at tall loops to know which way the Killer is moving, but that required a decent amount of skill and knowledge to pull off. It also still had anti-stealth functionality baked in, so jumpscare-averse Survs could use it for that. Self-Care's self-sufficiency for some reason is very big in Asiatic regions, as mentioned in some dev stream and by others on the forums. Both SC's are available to new players also, as Claudette is free, and Spine Chill is a general perk, so both get their stats inflated from newbies.
As to your conclusions about frequency and fairness I'd say right and wrong. Frequency, most certainly this is negativity bias. Someone has a bad match AND they got tunneled, so tunneling takes the blame. To some extent it is a legit complaint, but probably overblown in general. As far as fairness due to people not bringing countermeasures, I don't think you've used 3s DS to see how useless it is as an anti-tunnel countermeasure. I'd say it buys 3s stun, 3s pickup animation, and 5s of instadowning them afterwards. 11s isn't a good value proposition for general use of a perk designed around countering tunneling. As far as OTR goes, if the Killer was going to tunnel, they can run up to you and from the prior chase they know if you brought Iron Will or not, then they can hit you off hook if you are silent, negating the perk entirely. If the Killer is powerful enough, they will hit you off hook in the 10s anyways because they can shred through the Endurance without a problem. That makes OTR only useful in the niche circumstance where the Killer plans on Tunneling AFTER the Surv gets healed, but BEFORE they do a Conspicuous Action. That happens at most only one time per 1 in 20 games in my experience. Again, the value proposition of 5% of matches getting an OTR Endurance proc for 1 Surv (that might not even be you) isn't good value.
I agree with the conclusion, you have to work for your own fun. When there is a core flaw of the game, people complain on the forums to get it fixed. They are doing exactly what you are asking of them by complaining about tunneling on the forums.
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All this shows is victories should adjust a hidden MMR rating of Killer picks, perk picks, items and add-ons brought into matches. That way if people win more with Syringes and Nurses or BNPs and Blights, they get a hidden boost to their MMR equal to how powerful those things are. When they don't bring those things, their MMR isn't artificially boosted due to bringing stacked equipment. I'm not sure if this should be personal, or across the playerbase, but either way it would help keep sweats to only go against fellow sweats.
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I think the effort needed to make this isn't worth the effect people would stand to gain. I can easily know that my Lethal Pursuer afk down should be plopped on a normal hook instead of a Scourge Hook.
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@TheTom20 said:
Killswitch is for bugs
Sound like the design of the Killer is bugged if no one has fun playing against them. This is a game, and people play games to have fun. If no one is having fun, then it is an error in design or a bug.
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Please do not go through with this bad stats nerf. Its even an Iri for goodness sake. Blight and Double Speed, C33, Alch Ring, Adren Vial, and the rest of their ilk don't overperform compared to each other, because they all overperform in general. Make Demo's other add-ons worth touching instead of nerfing a Killer on life-support into the ground.
Edit: Another reason anything of Demo could "overperform" is because no new players are getting to purchase and play him. The majority of the Demo playerbase is Demo mains, which means they are going to have far and above the Killer competency by virtue of maining him.
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@thisislastyearsmodel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3508352#Comment_3508352
5 second DS only affects killers who can't afford to eat a stun in the first place, regardless of how long it is. Do you really think a Nurse cares whether she gets stunned for 3 or 5 seconds? Not at all.
A Pig on the other hand.... A Clown on the other hand.... A Trapper on the other hand.....
That's why I offered the anti-power DS variant.
Even then with 5s DS, you don't 'need' to tunnel in more than 90% of powerless M1 Killer matches anyways (assuming you are willing to develop enough skill).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaR-9_Vjp3s
It is super easy to pay attention to who you hooked last at the very least, and just not go for them. Even then, waiting for them to commit the grave sin of a CA is equally easy.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3508249#Comment_3508249
Woah, you mean you can tunnel through the perk? No way. Now play against survivors that only unhook until you're across the map. Good luck finding your tunnel out.
If you are cross map, then you found someone else or had something to defend and weren't planning on tunneling anyways. The point is OTR is bad at anti-tunnel because of how easy it is to deny it. Waiting for the Surv to tap a CA isn't exactly a herculean task even then.
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@thisislastyearsmodel said:
It's funny that all of those "dead" perks you listed have been changed so they don't let survivors do anything they want for absolutely no downside.
Do you really think it was healthy for the game that a recently unhooked survivor could get grabbed off of a gen and have a free escape because their DS timer was at 59 out of 60 seconds?
Or, that a survivor could get greedy and be about to go down and completely undo their mistake by pressing E?
Also, Corrupt really isn't meta anymore. It goes away as soon as somebody goes down, including a survivor using Plot Twist at 5 gens.
As for NOED... I mean, it's unhealthy for the game but the devs don't seem to be in the market of changing it. That one I'll give you, but even it can be completely mitigated by running Inner Healing and just getting five heals for free.
The DS conspicuous action change dealt with the gen aspect, without needing to nerf the 5s stun or disable it in endgame. I'm fine with not having it in endgame, if it still had teeth. If we don't bump it back up to 5s, I'd like it to disable Killer power for 5s per gen remaining. That way the Nurse tunneling at 5 gens can't blink for 25s, but the Bubba tunneling at 1 gen only has to wait 5s to use the saw.
I do agree that when they added DH validation it was busted, but the Endurance version was fine, because it only had value at pallets, not windows as well (although it could be busted with the 'bugfix' Fast vaults). Arguably I'd say we should have it only work against Special Attacks with a 1s duration and without the hooked requirement. That way it can still shut down Nurses and Blights, but do nothing to Legions and Clowns and Ghostfaces.
Plot twist to shut down Corrupt is a meme, and 99% of the time it is only a No Mither madlad doing that. If you have trouble winning with a No Mither user with a dead perk slot of Plot Twist, you have larger problems than losing Corrupt early.
I'm a bit of an odd one out with NOED, I'd want to basekit it in the case of 0 kills. If someone dies, the basekit NOED dies like Ruin, but if you bring the perk it can still spawn/survive after a kill. This would add extra pressure for the Survivors when the Killer is getting stomped, and allow for a potential comeback.
@Tsulan said:
Sorry, but i can´t take this thread serious. Survivor meta has barely changed over the last years.
https://twitter.com/DeadbyDaylight/status/1687463529303912448/photo/2
Also thought this was interesting and wanted to check the patches/dates added. (Month-Year format)
Survivor Meta perks are basically the release perks, or updates to perks at least 3-5 years old. (Rough Year 1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/2/2)
Killer Meta perks get one or two a year basically. (Rough Year 1/1/1/2/2/2/3/5/5/6)
To be fair, the last new Survivor Meta perk (CoH) was insanely busted and I think the only QoL it needs is to allow Self-Care at 25% speed. That way, if a teammate sees you taking 64s/80Sloppy to heal, they'd rather 8s/10Sloppy heal you themself.
Looking at the dates, it just makes Survivor look ludicrously depressing.
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Don't forget this is also the same guy who won 50 games in a row on Clown, did an all killers perkless (add-on less?) afk 30s challenge and got over an 80% win rate, among more challenges. One bad match is just that, one bad match. Don't hyperfocus on the leaf of a tree that escaped in order to ignore the entire forest that you chopped down en route.
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@dbdthegame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3507423#Comment_3507423
OTR is garbage? Sometimes, you read some HOT takes on these forums.
Please tell me how difficult it is as Blight to hit someone within 10s off hook to deny the perk.
Edit: or to window/pallet grab or to double Bubba Saw or double Huntress hatchet or Legion chain hit or Deathslinger spear with swing hit or etc.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3507665#Comment_3507665
Many things disproportionately buffs stronger survivors more. Who cares?
Any survivor can benefit from the free "iFrames" from fast vaulting. If a survivor fast vaults, they get immunity to killer lunges, which is a huge buff.
I am following your logic that this is an intentional Survivor buff. As such I am trying to understand a buff that will help one MMR bracket more than another. You should care if you want to believe in this 'conspiracy theory' just as I believe in my debug code 'conspiracy theory'. I am providing another voice for you to think with, given we are trying to think of why this would happen, and what it affects more. That is the entire reason to post on forums isn't it? To listen to more people's thoughts than your own?
I know I can just think of stuff that could have holes, that others could patch by my sharing it instead of keeping it to myself. I generally give people enough respect to believe they aren't simply speaking to 'hear their own voice' without repeated evidence to the contrary.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3507457#Comment_3507457
It's not really odd, because this change has zero penalties for the survivor. This isn't a change that made medium vaults worse, but fast vaults better, so that lower skill survivors would get a penalty for not knowing how to force fast vaults.
Instead, this just super buffs the fast vaults, so it doesn't matter what MMR a survivor is. This means it's a buff for survivors in general, regardless of skill level.
While I agree it would be a net buff for Survivor, I still think it disproportionately buffs stronger Survivors more. How many baby Fengs have you seen take the upstairs Dead Dawg window from the center stairwell going in a straight line and get the medium vault? I know I've seen my fair share of medium vaults when fast vaults are possible there, and at other spots like 4 lanes and the outside of short-wall (?) jungle-gyms. (The one with the window on the center L, not the outward facing one.)
I'd even be willing to say with a medium strength Killer, a mindgame is more punishing (at least at things like L-T walls) when going against those baby Survs. Now that is a super niche circumstance, but still theoretically possible, and all the normal fast vault conditions still net positive in favor of those baby Survs.
I know the most egregious case I've seen was the Demo Shred that appeared to slide off of the Survivor, I think on Ormond on an L-T wall. That was disgusting to see.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3507386#Comment_3507386
My theory is BHVR wanted to buff survivors, so they made a change to window vault hit validation, then labeled it a bugfix.
Before this recent change, I never had low latency games where my weapon would phase through vaulting survivors, and now this happens, which means something is happening beyond the survivors getting extra distance, because the survivor hitboxes are no longer matching where the killer sees them.
This seems odd to me, because this would be a targeted buff primarily towards higher skill Survivors. Baby Survs would still often mistakenly medium vault because they don't understand the mechanics. If specifically higher skill Survivors needed an escape rate buff that would make sense though. As for the phasing I'll combine that with the other reply below.
@Doūmugai said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3507386#Comment_3507386
Ig that would make sense, but it still feels "off" doesnt explain why you get catapulted further when holding w though.
If it were a commented out piece of code, it likely was tested, but not implemented prior. Likely during tests, whoever originally coded it found it only propels Male Survivors, and not Female Survivors. They likely commented it out to 'shelve' the idea to fix it on a rainy day, and it would be left forgotten until a newer dev found it. The newer dev, unaware of the problems during the original testing (Male hold W bonus distance), got it working again, and probably assumed it was how it was meant to be all along, hence calling it a 'bugfix'. This would make sense if it were formatted something like this.
Slow Vault: Jump over in 1.5s, use animation SlowM or SlowF
Medium Vault: Jump over in .9s, use animation MedM or MedF
Fast Vault: Jump over in .5s, use animation MedM or MedF
// Fast Vault Test: Jump over in .5s, use animation FastM or FastF (but FastF only refers to MedF in the files)
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I agree it needs to be removed from MfT, but not most of the others. When are you seriously getting Soul Guard value, that isn't Killer greed punishment? Buckle-Up has been a joke of a perk forever, and at least this also is reliant on picking up slugs. The only possible problem factor of slug pickup endurance is For the People. That could be easily fixed by preventing healing for 3s after downed. This would allow for healing if the Killer slugs, but if they insta-pickup the Survivor doesn't have time to be healed.
Also adding the Spine Chill boost onto MfT seems a bit stacked. I'd rather a different perk get the old Spine Chill boost, that way you have to equip Resil+MfT+(Spine Chill replacer) if you want the turbo juicer build. This would force them into 3 perk slots rather than only 2.
The only odd one out remaining is Off the Record. This is the only (albeit garbage) anti-tunnel perk remaining. I'd be fine if it was reverted alongside DS also being reverted to a 5s stun. Alternatively a new anti-tunnel effect to replace it.
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Many are good, but some could be a bit excessive. Gold Creek Whiskey for example should have a longer linger duration, but a 30-60s CD. As written, you can tap M2 every ~2.5s to be permanently undetectable. The speed loss for drawing the weapon is negligible compared to a no Lullaby ranged Killer.
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To be fair, the Tutorial was designed while the 'bug' was in the game. That means the Tutorial would have the trap placement be based around the 'bugged' fast/medium vaults. The new fast vaults are absolutely nutty, and they definitely are likely too much (at least with skilled Survivors).
My theory is during the anniversary event, people were complaining about BS hits at windows, because of laggy servers being overtaxed. A dev likely looked in the code, and found out it wasn't working as intended (maybe found some commented out line of code), so they tested it and re-implemented it. Since we all are used to normal 'bugged' distances at vaults, and it was the lag that was the problem, we got a different solution for the problem. Now that the servers aren't overtaxed, we have insane fast vaults without the real problem that needed fixing being there anymore.
I will say, when I play with my East Coast friends, the fast vaults don't feel like I get scammed when I get hit or missed at windows anymore, but when I play on my own West Coast server I often get missed when I should be getting hit (at least visually).
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1 sentence summary: SBMM = ranked, Rank/Grade based matchmaking = casual, and the swap deleted the casual gameplay to focus on sweating.
I think the largest problem is how we lost 'casual' mode when they implemented 'SBMM/MMR'. Now we only play in ranked mode. I could sit in Red Ranks as Killer before, and 2 hook tango (or hook each Survivor twice, then let them go for the 20k Survival BP at that time) without risk of changing my matchups. Sadly, now I am forced to kill any baby Surv I happen to run across because the matchmaking punishes both of us if I don't. The baby Surv gets higher MMR to a level they aren't ready for, and I would get punished with more baby Surv matches.
Also when the matchmaking was influenced by rank, people tried to balance their gameplay (they didn't always, but I've had all too many Killers in post-game chat say I did X to pip/kill). If I gen before healing, I don't get Benevolent points. If I 1 hook kill 3 people, I don't get Devout or Chaser points, due to the lack of chases and hook actions. Camping penalizes Chaser, so you can't pip. If a Survivor hides, they can't get Evader points (I mean technically you can, but you get 1 point a second hiding compared to 1-250 points a second in chase, since you need 880 points for Iridescent, that's nearly 15 minutes of hiding in TR). Every common complaint is addressed by the Emblem system. Now it isn't perfect, as you can be 'chased' by Wraith and Sadako, but you don't get Chaser points, among other flaws. That just means the exceptions to the rule should be ironed out, not simply throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Instead, when it is simplified down to the raw Kill/Escape, we lose all of that nuance, and get camping/tunneling/hiding/sweating across all too many matches.
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MfT destroys weaker/casual Killers, but does nothing against dedicated/skilled Killers. More people are casual than skilled, thus more complaints. More people hop on to forums to complain, than to praise. Now to be fair, the perk is overloaded, and the Endurance effect should be removed/shifted over to another weak perk.
When I say skilled Killers, I mean understanding your kit, and utilizing its strengths and counter-balancing your weaknesses. This to an extent requires perks, for example Corrupt Intervention/Lethal Pursuer to make up for a weak early game (depending on if you need them slowed down for Corrupt, or yourself sped up for Lethal).
The counterplay to Legion for example is staying injured, and spreading out. You punish this as the Killer by bringing Thana (if worried about gens) and/or Blood Echo (if worried about Exhaustion perks). Then you also force cross-map rescues and chase/intercept rescuers, either making the rescue process take longer, or reach a 2nd state without (proxy) camping. Someone without any of this knowledge will likely hold-W in chase against every Survivor, without paying attention when to drop chase/bloodlust a pallet/which side to kick a pallet on/etc. If you lose your Bloodlust every 5 seconds from kicking weak pallets or re-entering Frenzy, you are choosing to lose the chase against any Survivor with their head on straight.
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@coco_shotz said:
On the forums and in playerbases I've noticed that most people have one sided games when playing dbd. Survivors have a streak of killers who get 4k and killers have games where survivors sweat into a 4 man escape and I'm curious as to how this happens in the same game we are all playing. Is there any actual "fixes" to this? Is there really an issue to begin with? I'm curious to hear what anyone else has to say about this topic.
Negativity bias put short. When I lose a match in soloq, there can be many reasons. It could be I misplayed, or it could be a Mikaela or Feng screwed the team over. It could be the Killer facecamped then that Feng/Mikaela rescued at 62s, enabling the Killer to then tunnel and instantly kill the person being facecamped. As Killer, I could bring a meme loadout only to run into 2 Syringes and 2 (before this patch) BNPs. It could be a Plague when you got a healing tome, or a Nurse when you got an escape/pallet stun tome. Each of those problems makes the next match more painful, unless you bring your best in the next match.
All that leads to is an arms race on both sides. An arms race means whoever brings the best tools, wins. This can be Syringes or Nurses, genb4fren or camping/tunneling. Skill is also a tool, but a tool forged through adversity. Why toil at a smelter when you can just slap on a Stypic or pick Blight? Many people are casual players of the game, and by that I mean they want to log on at the end of a day to win. They don't want to exercise their strategies and methodology, they just want a dopamine hit. You can tell the truly skilled Killers when they throw the game to figure out how to outplay a specific loop, because they truly want to improve. That Huntress taking 25 top shots, or the Billy curving and bumping 10 times, are the ones who 'win' in the long run.
Since such a large percentage of the population are addicts (to dopamine), this causes them to only remember the losses. You aren't gunna hop on to the forums to complain about winning your match. I myself had one of those kneejerk reaction posts, but it was about lockers on Temple of Purgation, how if the main gen is not yet completed, you can be locked in the center spot as Dredge until the cooldown. After cooling off, I still think that was a valid complaint, especially since often the locker priority when aiming doesn't quite work. But I've won against plenty of (insert 'nerf nao' thing here) users, as well as lost against plenty. It feels better to ragepost about it being busted than to use it and find what counters it. Essentially, if you won 9 matches, you can only complain about the 10th that you lost.
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@Killing_Time said:
So I'm a doctor player at heart but I've been getting blitzed by MFT swf teams. How do you beat this app? I watched Herman (the best doctor player) get destroyed left and right also. It seems like I'm useless at a loop using an m1 killer
The problem is how outdated Doc is, similar to Myers. His shock is ultra laggy, probably because he was designed around the Killer being the host of a match when he came out. The slowdown is extreme when using his power, which is needed to prevent Survivors from having 0 counterplay. He has no add-on source of Exhaustion, nor any add-on that really helps chase besides Discipline. Even then, Discipline is more of a patch for lag, than anything useful.
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@OneNineTwoNine said:
Let's talk about genrushing. Even if you don't think "genrushing" is a real thing, the fact that gens get completed so quickly in a lot of matches is still a massive issue. I main both survivor and killer, and find that in most of my games as killers gens pop so quickly it's overwhelming.
But I'm not gonna sit here and say that it's because survivors are genrushing, because the real problem is not how much time it takes to do the gens, actually. And that's why increasing the time that it takes to do gens, in reality, does nothing.
Originally, a gen took 65 seconds to complete. Now it takes 90 seconds to complete, and if we do some math, we can see that this only improves gen times marginally with a competent team.
There are 5 gens survivors have to do, let's assume that you are currently chasing 1 survivor, and all the other 3 are on gens (realistically, there will always be some variance in a real world example because of the inherent randomness in the game).
So if we use the original gen times in our math:
65 * 5 (gens) / 3 (survivors) = 108. That's 1 Minute and 48 Seconds.
Now, if we use the 90 second generators today:
90 * 5 / 3 = 150. That's 2 Minutes and 30 Seconds.
So in reality, all we've done here is give the killer a marginal 42 extra seconds. But what we've also done is make the game way more boring for the survivors having to hold M1 for one and a half minutes to complete their objective, as well as making it harder for solo queue.
So what's the problem then? In my opinion, this mechanic is inherently flawed as long as several survivors can complete multiple generators at the same time.
No amount of slowdown will help the game as long as generators can be split across several survivors. I think that in order to "solve genrushing" there needs to be actual changes in the core mechanics of this game. Of course, the devs didn't anticipate that this party game would be optimized by people who like to win every match.
Thoughts?
The gen math is flawed from the start. There shouldn't be 3 Survs pumping gens, but 1 with proper application of pressure. The start of the match has the concept you are using, but as soon as someone is downed, you get a new equation. Now that someone is downed, they are going on hook. Now you have Surv A on hook, Surv B attempting a rescue (which you then chase), Surv C forced to attempt a rescue due to Surv B getting harried, and Surv D on gens. Even after the unhook, they likely will heal up, burning another 16s (real-time) where you still have the 1 surv on gens equation. Some major changes to the equation are Adrenaline (encouraging popping a final gen instead of healing), and bad starts. If you get a quick down, that changes your estimated 2m30s timer to 7m30s, or anywhere in between based on the Killer's efficiency, and that can be extended further with slowdown perks.
Now I do agree that splitting on gens is more effective for the Survivors, and the mechanics currently encourage that. Why would I spend 106s (53s*2) to duo 2 gens, when we could each solo gens in 90s? Similarly, grouping on gens risks multiple Survivors being displaced from a single action by the Killer, and thus unable to work on gens. Grouping on gens needs to be more effective than solo-ing in order to incentivize inferior actions. Nerfing Prove Thyself further encourages efficient sologen gameplay, so I don't understand the complaints about that perk.
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To be fair, if MfT is actually as popular as claimed, this is over a ~3 month timespan with ~1 month including MfT. If MfT was 100% pickrate it would be 33% on this list. If it were 100% pickrate in 'top-MMR', and only picked in 'top-MMR', then it would be the top 25% of the playerbase, or 8.33% on this list. Even if it were picked only once a match below 'top-MMR' (25% pickrate in 75% of matches), and picked half of the time in 'top-MMR' (50% pickrate in 25% of matches), it would be at ~10%. The fact that it isn't on the list at all, shows it truly isn't as popular as claimed.
The people complaining about its pick-rate, are the same people who eat 1000 spiders and say "see, humans eat an average of a spider a year!", not realizing they are statistical outliers.
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@mca240 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3503076#Comment_3503076
You play the killers with the lowest kill rate. You cannot be playing high level and consistently win with those.
This is an issue with how statistics work. If you are are god tier, lets say Doctor, and win with a 90% kill rate across 10 games, but other Killers at the MMR-softcap only get 40% kill rate across 90 games, that means Doctor has a 45% kill rate, or half your personal kill rate. Even though you are a Doc main who has mastered the Killer to that extreme, doesn't mean other people can't weigh down the stats for the Killer. If that person dedicated their time and experience to learning 1-5 Killers, they most certainly can have a far greater kill rate than the stats.
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@Uxoxe said:
Boon: Dark Theory is bad, not mediocre.
@dbdthegame said:
Dance with Me is great.
I see you both cared enough about the semantics of my perk effectiveness description, but what do you think of the proposed buff?
Also I am confused in what matches/circumstances Dance With Me is getting enough value that you would describe it as 'great'. I would only see it as 'good' at best on a favorable day.
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@lifestylee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3502681#Comment_3502681
People also escape through the exit gate tho and so it would be lower then 87.5% no? Even if the last survivor escapes through the exit gate ~33% of the time.
I dont think the average player/killrate was 3king every game, maybe you were with 95% but i dont believe the average wasnt, the killrate released before it was hard meta (but the perks were used an okay amount) was 60%.
If you want to believe it was 80% or whatever then thats fine.
My entire point from the start was that people not knowing something was busted resulted in 60% kill rates, and people caught on later. My own experience immediately after that patch as Killer was far higher than even that helping shape that thought. The hatch discussion was just that a clear Killer win can deflate kill rates below an expected 100%, even if not a single gen was completed across numerous matches. You are bringing up how many branches are on trees, and failing to see the forest of the discussion here.
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@lifestylee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3502517#Comment_3502517
Hatch is also a form of escape, not everyone used COB/Overcharge/Eruption every game on every killer when it was meta, even if they did i still dont think the average killer would have an 80% killrate. I played solo survivor after 6.1.0 and my escape rate was still decent, probaly around 40%.
Hatch is also a form of escape - That's why I explained with the parenthetical I was excluding hatch. Theoretically I can slug for the 4k and deny hatch/gate in the vast majority of those victories, but unless I am doing an Adept achievement, that is a waste of my time, and boring for everyone involved. Since most people aren't sweaty enough to waste their time to deny hatch, that actually artificially inflates escape rates if anything. If we were to assume hatch is a 50/50 after a 3k, that would mean most 5 gen wins by Killer only get 87.5% kill rate, compared to the theoretically expected 100%.
Not everyone used degen 3gen perks - Which is also why the stats weren't more extreme. Once people realized how busted they were, they started abusing them, which caused a swift-ish nerf to Eruption, and a delayed nerf to CoB/OC.
Solo personal escape rate of 40% - Glad you had better luck than I. I get tilted very quickly playing soloq, and when I see the corner crouching Mikaela at 5 gens who has never been hooked, my soul leaves my body in despair. That tends to snowball my losses because then I get more Survivors of that 'caliber'. Then I ragequit playing Survivor (after the match is over), swap to Killer, and make sure no Mikaela or Feng lives. When playing Killer, that frustration seems to channel into more effective gameplay, but with Survivor it seems to cause me to take bad chases/mindgames and lose quicker.
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Is this some sort of ultra challenge mode? Everytime I get a Feng she either intentionally sandbags or is so incompetent, either way it feels like a 3v2.
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If my Killer matches were any indication (using those perks) I would be willing to raise that to 90-95% (excluding hatch). I was simply using my soloq experience (and dropping the estimate to account for that being ~60% of all matches).